"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
Should they? I thought the duty of the minister was to run the department, rather than conduct the analyses themselves.
They have to understand the analysis, for which scientific training is needed.
Isn't that what civil servants are for, to explain what the reports show?
The rule of law is deteriorating, and all the signs are that it will continue to do. This is part of a broader problem, which is the decline of civilisation. I have been observing this for the past 20 years, but only became conscious of it in the last 2. The current government are the latest variants of a liberal elite who are trying to arrest the decline of civilisation by pandering to the mob. This is a story that rarely ends well, as history attests.
Perhaps being dense - it's not unknown - but this sounds slightly odd.
If you started to observe something in 1999 but only became conscious of it in 2017, what were you looking at in, say, 2006?
It implies that you were kind of staring into space.
Sad truth is, though, that we’ve plenty of women MPs every bit as useless as the men.
A cabinet led by Caroline Lucas, including Priti Patel, Esther McVey, Laura Pidcock, Rebecca Long-Bailey, Diane Abbott and Liz Truss would be enough to send all sane persons on a very fast trip to the nearest border.
The triumphant return of one T May as Home Secretary would top it off.
Sad truth is, though, that we’ve plenty of women MPs every bit as useless as the men.
A cabinet led by Caroline Lucas, including Priti Patel, Esther McVey, Laura Pidcock, Rebecca Long-Bailey, Diane Abbott and Liz Truss would be enough to send all sane persons on a very fast trip to the nearest border.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
Julian Huppert was an academic physicist. He got chucked out in 2015. There must be others ...
Huppert replaced Anne Campbell, who was a statistician.
And of course, our own dear Nick Palmer was a pure mathematician.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
Although Steve Baker, David Davis and Andrew Bridgen are on that list. Maybe we need fewer?
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
My grumble is not about lawyers’ representation in Parliament.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
Should they? I thought the duty of the minister was to run the department, rather than conduct the analyses themselves.
They have to understand the analysis, for which scientific training is needed.
Isn't that what civil servants are for, to explain what the reports show?
Civil servants are like the appendix in the human anatomy.
Sad truth is, though, that we’ve plenty of women MPs every bit as useless as the men.
A cabinet led by Caroline Lucas, including Priti Patel, Esther McVey, Laura Pidcock, Rebecca Long-Bailey, Diane Abbott and Liz Truss would be enough to send all sane persons on a very fast trip to the nearest border.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
Julian Huppert was an academic physicist. He got chucked out in 2015. There must be others ...
Huppert replaced Anne Campbell, who was a statistician.
And of course, our own dear Nick Palmer was a pure mathematician.
Well I never knew that. Obviously too intelligent for politics.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
Julian Huppert was an academic physicist. He got chucked out in 2015. There must be others ...
Huppert replaced Anne Campbell, who was a statistician.
And of course, our own dear Nick Palmer was a pure mathematician.
Julian Huppert didn't replace Anne Campbell. He replaced me. Interesting to be written out of history in front of my face!
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
I rather doubt, given the numbers of science graduates, that most of them are working as scientists.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
Julian Huppert was an academic physicist. He got chucked out in 2015. There must be others ...
Huppert replaced Anne Campbell, who was a statistician.
And of course, our own dear Nick Palmer was a pure mathematician.
Julian Huppert didn't replace Anne Campbell. He replaced me. Interesting to be written out of history in front of my face!
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
I rather doubt, given the numbers of science graduates, that most of them are working as scientists.
But thank you yet again for your contribution.
In fairness to HYUFD - for the first time in a very long time - he didn't say they were.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
Julian Huppert was an academic physicist. He got chucked out in 2015. There must be others ...
Huppert replaced Anne Campbell, who was a statistician.
And of course, our own dear Nick Palmer was a pure mathematician.
Julian Huppert didn't replace Anne Campbell. He replaced me. Interesting to be written out of history in front of my face!
Remarkable! Do you follow the discussion here, or do you have some kind of alert linked to who was MP for Cambridge?
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
Julian Huppert was an academic physicist. He got chucked out in 2015. There must be others ...
Huppert replaced Anne Campbell, who was a statistician.
And of course, our own dear Nick Palmer was a pure mathematician.
Julian Huppert didn't replace Anne Campbell. He replaced me. Interesting to be written out of history in front of my face!
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
Should they? I thought the duty of the minister was to run the department, rather than conduct the analyses themselves.
They have to understand the analysis, for which scientific training is needed.
Isn't that what civil servants are for, to explain what the reports show?
... and be ignored, because of political expediency. No much better to have someone in power who understands the problems and is willing to do something about them.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
I rather doubt, given the numbers of science graduates, that most of them are working as scientists.
But thank you yet again for your contribution.
In fairness to HYUFD - for the first time in a very long time - he didn't say they were.
No, true. He mentioned medicine and the City. But I still very much doubt it.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, the average male city salary is over £100 000 a year (and the city is full of STEM graduates) MPs earn £79 000 a year for example.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
This shows huge ignorance of STEM. It is not a high paid sector (outside of software in London) in the UK and I would argue the 70 odd K would be higher paid than most STEM graduates would ever earn outside of the most senior management positions.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, MPs earn £79 000 a year for example
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
This shows huge ignorance of STEM. It is not a high paid sector (outside of software in London) in the UK and I would argue the 70 odd K would be higher paid than most STEM graduates would ever earn outside of the most senior management positions.
Here are some figures, for those who are interested:
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, MPs earn £79 000 a year for example
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, the average male city salary is over £100 000 a year (and the city is full of STEM graduates) MPs earn £79 000 a year for example.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
This shows huge ignorance of STEM. It is not a high paid sector (outside of software in London) in the UK and I would argue the 70 odd K would be higher paid than most STEM graduates would ever earn outside of the most senior management positions.
Given MPs are supposed to represent about the top 10% of the population given their pay, we are talking about the top 10% of science graduates not the average science graduate at an ex poly
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
Julian Huppert was an academic physicist. He got chucked out in 2015. There must be others ...
Huppert replaced Anne Campbell, who was a statistician.
And of course, our own dear Nick Palmer was a pure mathematician.
Julian Huppert didn't replace Anne Campbell. He replaced me. Interesting to be written out of history in front of my face!
Remarkable! Do you follow the discussion here, or do you have some kind of alert linked to who was MP for Cambridge?
As I said a while ago I lurked for a very long time before saying anything. I think I'll go back to lurking now...
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, MPs earn £79 000 a year for example
Can one work as a GP without a degree in medicine, I wonder?
I think (although Dr Foxy will of course correct me if I'm wrong) that in theory the only requirement is to be a member of the Royal College of Physicians, or Surgeons.
But as in practice they require medical qualifications...
Scientist MPs? I can only think of Sir Philip Dawson (Lewisham West) who was a celebrated electrical engineer. But he died in 1938 and had fascist sympathies.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
This shows huge ignorance of STEM. It is not a high paid sector (outside of software in London) in the UK and I would argue the 70 odd K would be higher paid than most STEM graduates would ever earn outside of the most senior management positions.
Given MPs are supposed to represent about the top 10% of the population given their pay, we are talking about the top 10% of science graduates not the average science graduate at an ex poly
So you are saying MPs should be the metropolitan liberal elite??
Scientist MPs? I can only think of Sir Philip Dawson (Lewisham West) who was a celebrated electrical engineer. But he died in 1938 and had fascist sympathies.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, MPs earn £79 000 a year for example
Can one work as a GP without a degree in medicine, I wonder?
Incidentally, interesting to compare what HYUFD posted to start with (quoted above) with the re-edited version he came up with. Though unclear whether the re-edited version is any less ridiculous.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
This shows huge ignorance of STEM. It is not a high paid sector (outside of software in London) in the UK and I would argue the 70 odd K would be higher paid than most STEM graduates would ever earn outside of the most senior management positions.
Given MPs are supposed to represent about the top 10% of the population given their pay, we are talking about the top 10% of science graduates not the average science graduate at an ex poly
In fact this is the most London centric, snobbish and sneering comment I’ve seen in a while.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service or lower paid lab based scientists like Merkel
This shows huge ignorance of STEM. It is not a high paid sector (outside of software in London) in the UK and I would argue the 70 odd K would be higher paid than most STEM graduates would ever earn outside of the most senior management positions.
Given MPs are supposed to represent about the top 10% of the population given their pay, we are talking about the top 10% of science graduates not the average science graduate at an ex poly
And all those science graduates who become science teachers - they earn more than MPs too?
Even they tend to earn more than the average teacher and if they become a Headteacher they would earn more than MPs
The first comment is true.
But in all the years I've been in teaching I can think of only 2 heads I've worked for who were scientists - both were physicists. That compares with two historians, two geographers, and two English teachers.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn ientists like Merkel
This shows huge ignorance of STEM. It is not a high paid sector (outside of software in London) in the UK and I would argue the 70 odd K would be higher paid than most STEM graduates would ever earn outside of the most senior management positions.
Given MPs are supposed to represent about the top 10% of the population given their pay, we are talking about the top 10% of science graduates not the average science graduate at an ex poly
So you are saying MPs should be the metropolitan liberal elite??
They should mainly be elite yes, whether metropolitan, rural or otherwise, though of course by definition the final decision lies with the voters
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, the average male city salary is over £100 000 a year (and the city is full of STEM graduates) MPs earn £79 000 a year for example.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
Julian Huppert was an academic physicist. He got chucked out in 2015. There must be others ...
Huppert replaced Anne Campbell, who was a statistician.
And of course, our own dear Nick Palmer was a pure mathematician.
Julian Huppert didn't replace Anne Campbell. He replaced me. Interesting to be written out of history in front of my face!
Remarkable! Do you follow the discussion here, or do you have some kind of alert linked to who was MP for Cambridge?
As I said a while ago I lurked for a very long time before saying anything. I think I'll go back to lurking now...
Please don't. You could probably raise the average quality of contributions considerably, even if you posted only once a week.
Scientist MPs? I can only think of Sir Philip Dawson (Lewisham West) who was a celebrated electrical engineer. But he died in 1938 and had fascist sympathies.
Graham Stringer, Maggie spring to mind. Not enough of them though.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
I love how a header about the crisis in the criminal justice system very quickly turns into a discussion about how much science graduates are paid. It rather proves my point! The glories of PB.
The damage done to forensic science in this country by yet another botched privatisation is something for which the government should not be forgiven. When a person’s liberty is at stake such deliberate destruction is disgraceful.
Fascinating piece by Cyclefree for which, as always, many thanks. I also have the notion the fundamentals of the criminal justice system are in dire need of reform but I don't pretend to have any answers.
I think there are general perceptions at large which re-enforce the debate and entrenched positions. I start from the simple view there is too much petty criminality for the Police to ever get control whether that be fare evasion, anti social behaviour or theft. There are just too many crimes - get a number and call the insurance is the classic response nowadays to petty crime.
The argument for the legalisation of some drugs, from that perspective, is very strong though there's also evidence of the long term mental health damage caused by cannabis usage.
The widespread publicising (and rightly so) of knife crime disguises the fact it is very often a crime committed by the young on the young. There is a huge cultural problem around gangs and the carrying of blades (note the big increase in girls and women with knives as well) for which there are many causes and the debate around the causes masks the paucity of an effective response (does Glasgow have the right idea on this?).
We all have a view on what law and order means whether it's PC McGarry number 452 or The Sweeney. Keeping more people in prison costs as does building more prisons (though the design of modern London flats has prison-like aspects). We could have an armed policeman on every street corner if that's we wanted or were willing to pay for.
We also have the enormous cost of the security state from GCHQ to Boris Johnson's police protection detail but the provision and application of law and order must be more analogous to the fundamental principles of the NHS and must never be simply about having as much law and order as you personally can afford but that's how it seems once the gate is locked and the cameras are on.
Of course we can treat security as a commodity but the aim must be for law and order to mean something not just to the Conservative voter or the criminal but to everyone and that means a model of policing which works and we struggle with the balance between visibility and cost - as with so much else, we know the cost of it but not the value of it.
I just wonder how people as dumb as this get into these positions.
I wonder whether Priti Patel's parents would have been able to come to the UK under the rules she is proposing now. It's such an obvious question, but maybe the press are now too stupid or compliant to ask it.
Unless I'm reading it wrong, it's not Priti's proposal; it's what she'd been told she 'ought to enforce'. She's been suggesting 30k, which is course still well above the starting salary of most graduates.
And I'm certain that many of those who came across from Uganda and elsewhere in East Africa didn't have jobs that fetched home that sort of money.
Interesting tie in of course, with the excellent header; get your facts right before taking someone into Court!
@HYUFD what percentage of STEM graduates (or STEM apprenticeships etc.) end up working in the City?
At Russell Group universities a large percentage
Total bollocks. I did Mechanical Engineering at a Russel Group university and no one in my year went to work in the City as far as I’m aware.
Well I went to a Russell Group university and half the science and engineering graduates I know now work in the city or a senior level in industry or IT, some also earn a lot in IP law
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn ientists like Merkel
This shows huge ignorance of STEM. It is not a high paid sector (outside of software in London) in the UK and I would argue the 70 odd K would be higher paid than most STEM graduates would ever earn outside of the most senior management positions.
Given MPs are supposed to represent about the top 10% of the population given their pay, we are talking about the top 10% of science graduates not the average science graduate at an ex poly
So you are saying MPs should be the metropolitan liberal elite??
They should mainly be elite yes, whether metropolitan, rural or otherwise, though of course by definition the final decision lies with the voters
Considering the only qualification necessary is the ability to suck-up to a party political cult, cease to think independently, and to convince enough mugs to vote for you instead of the other knacker, I think you’re being ridiculous.
I note BJ only got a 2:1 so he’s clearly not justifying his salary.
And all those science graduates who become science teachers - they earn more than MPs too?
Even they tend to earn more than the average teacher and if they become a Headteacher they would earn more than MPs
The first comment is true.
But in all the years I've been in teaching I can think of only 2 heads I've worked for who were scientists - both were physicists. That compares with two historians, two geographers, and two English teachers.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, the average male city salary is over £100 000 a year (and the city is full of STEM graduates) MPs earn £79 000 a year for example.
@HYUFD what percentage of STEM graduates (or STEM apprenticeships etc.) end up working in the City?
At Russell Group universities a large percentage
Total bollocks. I did Mechanical Engineering at a Russel Group university and no one in my year went to work in the City as far as I’m aware.
Well I went to a Russell Group university and half the science and engineering graduates I know now work in the city or a senior level in industry or IT, some also earn a lot in IP law
And all those science graduates who become science teachers - they earn more than MPs too?
Even they tend to earn more than the average teacher and if they become a Headteacher they would earn more than MPs
The first comment is true.
But in all the years I've been in teaching I can think of only 2 heads I've worked for who were scientists - both were physicists. That compares with two historians, two geographers, and two English teachers.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, the average male city salary is over £100 000 a year (and the city is full of STEM graduates) MPs earn £79 000 a year for example.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
Baron (Peter) Lilley has a degree in physics.
So two of the few politicians on record as being sceptical of the the "official line" on climate change and energy policy are scientists... (Stringer & Lilley) Small sample admittedly!
Interestingly, Lord Mackie of Clashfern, Lord Chancellor 1987-1997, was originally a mathematician and got as far as teaching at a university, before he rashly threw it all away and retrained as a lawyer.
I wonder if he was the most successful mathematician in politics?
@HYUFD what percentage of STEM graduates (or STEM apprenticeships etc.) end up working in the City?
At Russell Group universities a large percentage
Total bollocks. I did Mechanical Engineering at a Russel Group university and no one in my year went to work in the City as far as I’m aware.
Well I went to a Russell Group university and half the science and engineering graduates I know now work in the city or a senior level in industry or IT, some also earn a lot in IP law
Industry or IT is not The City.
Of course engineering graduates work in industry. But most don't earn an MP's salary.
I just wonder how people as dumb as this get into these positions.
Says the person too thick to realise Patel never said any of that.
You really are a cretinous halfwitted moron. Whether 36K or 30K it is a policy thought up by thick millionaires who have no idea what actually happens in the country in real life. They are supported by xenophobic morons like yourself. At that level it would preclude nearly every skill required by the UK.
@HYUFD what percentage of STEM graduates (or STEM apprenticeships etc.) end up working in the City?
At Russell Group universities a large percentage
Total bollocks. I did Mechanical Engineering at a Russel Group university and no one in my year went to work in the City as far as I’m aware.
Well I went to a Russell Group university and half the science and engineering graduates I know now work in the city or a senior level in industry or IT, some also earn a lot in IP law
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, the average male city salary is over £100 000 a year (and the city is full of STEM graduates) MPs earn £79 000 a year for example.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
Baron (Peter) Lilley has a degree in physics.
I am not an expert on Lilley, but wiki says "He was educated at Dulwich College and Clare College, Cambridge, where he studied natural sciences before switching to economics."
I think that normally translates to he found natural sciences too difficult and switched to economics.
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
John Denham has a BSc. in Chemistry from Southampton. Although he stood down in 2015. There must be others...
I've too much time, or diversionary activity; found a list from 2017 (pre-election) which found 27 such.
27 MPs with a bachelor's degree in science? Considering nearly half the population goes to university these days that's not really a large number.
Most science and STEM subject graduates earn more in industry, medicine or the City than they would do in politics so they don't bother unless they have a particularly strong sense of public service
I very much doubt the accuracy of that statement -- citation needed.
The average GP earns £90 000 a year, the average male city salary is over £100 000 a year (and the city is full of STEM graduates) MPs earn £79 000 a year for example.
you can double that with their more than generous expenses which mean they never have to dip into their own pockets and have a nice second house to sell as well as a platinum plated pension
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
Baron (Peter) Lilley has a degree in physics.
So did Beeching (!).
Yes, even further back in time. But he was not a politician and the topic is people with scientific backgrounds who could participate in government now.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
Fascinating piece by Cyclefree for which, as always, many thanks. I also have the notion the fundamentals of the criminal justice system are in dire need of reform but I don't pretend to have any answers.
I think there are general perceptions at large which re-enforce the debate and entrenched positions. I start from the simple view there is too much petty criminality for the Police to ever get control whether that be fare evasion, anti social behaviour or theft. There are just too many crimes - get a number and call the insurance is the classic response nowadays to petty crime.
The argument for the legalisation of some drugs, from that perspective, is very strong though there's also evidence of the long term mental health damage caused by cannabis usage.
The widespread publicising (and rightly so) of knife crime disguises the fact it is very often a crime committed by the young on the young. There is a huge cultural problem around gangs and the carrying of blades (note the big increase in girls and women with knives as well) for which there are many causes and the debate around the causes masks the paucity of an effective response (does Glasgow have the right idea on this?).
We all have a view on what law and order means whether it's PC McGarry number 452 or The Sweeney. Keeping more people in prison costs as does building more prisons (though the design of modern London flats has prison-like aspects). We could have an armed policeman on every street corner if that's we wanted or were willing to pay for.
We also have the enormous cost of the security state from GCHQ to Boris Johnson's police protection detail but the provision and application of law and order must be more analogous to the fundamental principles of the NHS and must never be simply about having as much law and order as you personally can afford but that's how it seems once the gate is locked and the cameras are on.
Of course we can treat security as a commodity but the aim must be for law and order to mean something not just to the Conservative voter or the criminal but to everyone and that means a model of policing which works and we struggle with the balance between visibility and cost - as with so much else, we know the cost of it but not the value of it.
All interesting points. None of these will work if (a) the police lack basic competence; (b) the court system, the CPS and criminal lawyers are woefully underfunded, as they are; and (c) our prisons are, as Hurd said, “an expensive way of making bad people worse”.
@HYUFD what percentage of STEM graduates (or STEM apprenticeships etc.) end up working in the City?
At Russell Group universities a large percentage
Total bollocks. I did Mechanical Engineering at a Russel Group university and no one in my year went to work in the City as far as I’m aware.
Well I went to a Russell Group university and half the science and engineering graduates I know now work in the city or a senior level in industry or IT, some also earn a lot in IP law
Industry or IT is not The City.
Of course engineering graduates work in industry. But most don't earn an MP's salary.
The average Google worker earns £160 000 ie over double what MPs earn
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
@HYUFD what percentage of STEM graduates (or STEM apprenticeships etc.) end up working in the City?
At Russell Group universities a large percentage
Total bollocks. I did Mechanical Engineering at a Russel Group university and no one in my year went to work in the City as far as I’m aware.
Well I went to a Russell Group university and half the science and engineering graduates I know now work in the city or a senior level in industry or IT, some also earn a lot in IP law
I just wonder how people as dumb as this get into these positions.
Says the person too thick to realise Patel never said any of that.
You really are a cretinous halfwitted moron. Whether 36K or 30K it is a policy thought up by thick millionaires who have no idea what actually happens in the country in real life. They are supported by xenophobic morons like yourself. At that level it would preclude nearly every skill required by the UK.
I'm not xenophobic, I want liberalised migration.
I was cheering here the other day when they liberalised the science migration and removed the job offer requirement - which means no salary other requirement either.
But why let facts get in the way of a good rant? Whether it be facts about Patel, or facts about me . . . that's two mistakes in a row. Go chew on a turnip then come back with a less sour disposition.
@HYUFD what percentage of STEM graduates (or STEM apprenticeships etc.) end up working in the City?
At Russell Group universities a large percentage
Total bollocks. I did Mechanical Engineering at a Russel Group university and no one in my year went to work in the City as far as I’m aware.
Well I went to a Russell Group university and half the science and engineering graduates I know now work in the city or a senior level in industry or IT, some also earn a lot in IP law
@HYUFD what percentage of STEM graduates (or STEM apprenticeships etc.) end up working in the City?
At Russell Group universities a large percentage
Total bollocks. I did Mechanical Engineering at a Russel Group university and no one in my year went to work in the City as far as I’m aware.
Well I went to a Russell Group university and half the science and engineering graduates I know now work in the city or a senior level in industry or IT, some also earn a lot in IP law
Industry or IT is not The City.
Of course engineering graduates work in industry. But most don't earn an MP's salary.
The average Google worker earns £160 000 ie over double what MPs earn
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
All interesting points. None of these will work if (a) the police lack basic competence; (b) the court system, the CPS and criminal lawyers are woefully underfunded, as they are; and (c) our prisons are, as Hurd said, “an expensive way of making bad people worse”.
Thank you for the kind words.
The problem is Patel and Johnson see this as an opportunity for political points scoring and cheap electioneering. They play on perceptions around law and order to come up with these half-baked ideas and commit vast sums of public money often in the wrong way at the wrong targets.
The trouble is they are saying the simplistic things some people want to hear.
@HYUFD what percentage of STEM graduates (or STEM apprenticeships etc.) end up working in the City?
At Russell Group universities a large percentage
Total bollocks. I did Mechanical Engineering at a Russel Group university and no one in my year went to work in the City as far as I’m aware.
Well I went to a Russell Group university and half the science and engineering graduates I know now work in the city or a senior level in industry or IT, some also earn a lot in IP law
I just wonder how people as dumb as this get into these positions.
Says the person too thick to realise Patel never said any of that.
You really are a cretinous halfwitted moron. Whether 36K or 30K it is a policy thought up by thick millionaires who have no idea what actually happens in the country in real life. They are supported by xenophobic morons like yourself. At that level it would preclude nearly every skill required by the UK.
I'm not xenophobic, I want liberalised migration.
I was cheering here the other day when they liberalised the science migration and removed the job offer requirement - which means no salary other requirement either.
But why let facts get in the way of a good rant? Whether it be facts about Patel, or facts about me . . . that's two mistakes in a row. Go chew on a turnip then come back with a less sour disposition.
Comments
If you started to observe something in 1999 but only became conscious of it in 2017, what were you looking at in, say, 2006?
It implies that you were kind of staring into space.
And of course, our own dear Nick Palmer was a pure mathematician.
Agree with you about Ministers for Science.
They have no discernible function.
No.
Just...no!
Admittedly not all have been so disastrously incompetent as Gove and Cummings, but none have been teachers.
Interesting to be written out of history in front of my face!
But thank you yet again for your contribution.
And I even voted for you in my time.
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-britain-highest-paid-gp-doctor/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1532521/Average-City-salary-for-a-man-breaks-100000.html
And don't those cops look young!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education-and-careers/0/uk-highest-paying-degrees-graduate-salary/
https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1160567748260442112?s=21
I think I'll go back to lurking now...
But as in practice they require medical qualifications...
'Unfortunately' because if they did I might too!
Were you just expressing an opinion?
This is just the sort of toxic masculinity that the Lucas Fallopian Alliance is there to stop.
Honestly. Our role in the new world order is to nod in agreement, or politely applaud. Stop violating the LFA's dignity with your sarcasm.
But in all the years I've been in teaching I can think of only 2 heads I've worked for who were scientists - both were physicists. That compares with two historians, two geographers, and two English teachers.
Such as the author of "On the influence of spatial correlations on the rate of chemical reactions in dense gases. I. Quantum statistical theory"
https://tinyurl.com/y5uwdma9
Please don't take offense when I say that I'm beginning to see you as a fellow Puritan.
The damage done to forensic science in this country by yet another botched privatisation is something for which the government should not be forgiven. When a person’s liberty is at stake such deliberate destruction is disgraceful.
Fascinating piece by Cyclefree for which, as always, many thanks. I also have the notion the fundamentals of the criminal justice system are in dire need of reform but I don't pretend to have any answers.
I think there are general perceptions at large which re-enforce the debate and entrenched positions. I start from the simple view there is too much petty criminality for the Police to ever get control whether that be fare evasion, anti social behaviour or theft. There are just too many crimes - get a number and call the insurance is the classic response nowadays to petty crime.
The argument for the legalisation of some drugs, from that perspective, is very strong though there's also evidence of the long term mental health damage caused by cannabis usage.
The widespread publicising (and rightly so) of knife crime disguises the fact it is very often a crime committed by the young on the young. There is a huge cultural problem around gangs and the carrying of blades (note the big increase in girls and women with knives as well) for which there are many causes and the debate around the causes masks the paucity of an effective response (does Glasgow have the right idea on this?).
We all have a view on what law and order means whether it's PC McGarry number 452 or The Sweeney. Keeping more people in prison costs as does building more prisons (though the design of modern London flats has prison-like aspects). We could have an armed policeman on every street corner if that's we wanted or were willing to pay for.
We also have the enormous cost of the security state from GCHQ to Boris Johnson's police protection detail but the provision and application of law and order must be more analogous to the fundamental principles of the NHS and must never be simply about having as much law and order as you personally can afford but that's how it seems once the gate is locked and the cameras are on.
Of course we can treat security as a commodity but the aim must be for law and order to mean something not just to the Conservative voter or the criminal but to everyone and that means a model of policing which works and we struggle with the balance between visibility and cost - as with so much else, we know the cost of it but not the value of it.
I won’t.
I’m intrigued though. What do you mean by Puritan?
I note BJ only got a 2:1 so he’s clearly not justifying his salary.
I wonder if he was the most successful mathematician in politics?
Of course engineering graduates work in industry. But most don't earn an MP's salary.
@HYUFD is clearly out of touch.
I think that normally translates to he found natural sciences too difficult and switched to economics.
https://www.indeed.co.uk/salaries/Managing-Director-Salaries
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/google-uk-staff-salary-earned-2015
Maybe it might help if I defined Trump as anti-Puritan.
@HYUFD so out of touch from Epping Forest 👋
I was cheering here the other day when they liberalised the science migration and removed the job offer requirement - which means no salary other requirement either.
But why let facts get in the way of a good rant? Whether it be facts about Patel, or facts about me . . . that's two mistakes in a row. Go chew on a turnip then come back with a less sour disposition.
The problem is Patel and Johnson see this as an opportunity for political points scoring and cheap electioneering. They play on perceptions around law and order to come up with these half-baked ideas and commit vast sums of public money often in the wrong way at the wrong targets.
The trouble is they are saying the simplistic things some people want to hear.