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edited March 2019 in General

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,196
    I'm actually a layer of Gove at present.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,868
    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm actually a layer of Gove at present.

    Wise.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    edited March 2019
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    IanB2 said:

    The opposition line of attack is clearly going to be "blind Brexit" redoubled, contrasting the transparency of the indicative debate on options with the motion to write HMG a blank cheque.

    Which is garbage, of course, because you can still have the indicative debate (almost all the discussion was about the PD). Not that that will deter them.
    Except that it rules out the option (pass WA subject to confirmatory referendum) that got the most votes yesterday. It's a blank cheque to May and whatever headbanger replaces her, Labour would be mad to allow their fingerprints anywhere near it.
    Perhaps so. But if fails, as expected, but gets more votes than the options voted on yesterday, what then? Does Customs union have to drop out? If it is provably more popular than any other option that could be very relevant.
    The government had the chance to table it yesterday!
    I agree, but people were whinging yesterday that the top two items yesterday were more popular than the deal as if that made a difference, therefore if the WA is more popular those same people must think it significant.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,196
    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    Hard to call this one without any clue what the circumstances will be. More of a picture when the (not)MV is voted down again tomorrow and 22 May is ruled out, but for now I'm too uncertain to be tempted by any of them.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    It was no doubt not original but very apt nevertheless...

    https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1111326290836144128
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    Thoughts and prayers for the Tory party.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    edited March 2019
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    IanB2 said:

    The opposition line of attack is clearly going to be "blind Brexit" redoubled, contrasting the transparency of the indicative debate on options with the motion to write HMG a blank cheque.

    Which is garbage, of course, because you can still have the indicative debate (almost all the discussion was about the PD). Not that that will deter them.
    Except that it rules out the option (pass WA subject to confirmatory referendum) that got the most votes yesterday. It's a blank cheque to May and whatever headbanger replaces her, Labour would be mad to allow their fingerprints anywhere near it.
    Perhaps so. But if fails, as expected, but gets more votes than the options voted on yesterday, what then? Does Customs union have to drop out? If it is provably more popular than any other option that could be very relevant.
    The government had the chance to table it yesterday!
    I agree, but people were whinging yesterday that the top two items yesterday were more popular than the deal as if that made a difference, therefore if the WA is more popular those same people must think it significant.
    It would be an argument in the government's favour if the IO process could run on with a narrow loser, but I really think it needs to identify a winner on Monday. Given that the WA will have lost tomorrow (otherwise IO ends) the point becomes academic.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,196
    MarqueeMark said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm actually a layer of Gove at present.

    Wise.
    His ratings are absolutely appalling.

    The fact he could do the job of PM perhaps better than any of those is besides the point. This is politics, and he's got an epic fail there.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    This, except Rory Stewart, not Mercer.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,285
    This could be a huge own goal by May.

    The number of Tory rebels in the more moderate wing of the party has been increased during the last week and this trick to get the WA through could see some very troublesome amendments pass.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    I agree, except that those sort of changes are done in opposition. Very hard for an upcoming relative youngster to drop straight into PM. Not least because of the power of potential patronage that the oldies will have been working on for some time.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    Interesting comments. Do you think Brexit or the EU is a central issue to most people's lives?

    I think it is but they don't know it; most people don't appreciate how important Europe is to our lives today imo.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    Benpointer said:

    It was no doubt not original but very apt nevertheless...

    https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1111326290836144128

    It's a good line, which is why it is being used so much, but really it is just sad - the best chance for something to get resolved and everyone to move forward at least has been snapped out.

    But here's hoping Monday brings some forward progress, particularly since tomorrow won't - it's a bit of a circus, necessitated by needing to at least try to get something passed to meet the 22 May date.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,947
    edited March 2019
    We have a path forwards:

    GIN1138 said:



    1. WA passes minus PD

    2. Theresa May resigns - Con leadership election - Theresa stays on as PM during leadership election.

    3. We leave the EU on 22nd May with the WA.

    4. New Con leader.

    5. General election to decide what we want from our future arrangements.

    6. New government begins negotiations for future trade deal endorsed by general election.

    Can that work?


    Labour/Jezza should go for this. They get their much wanted general election by July and if they win it they can implement #CorbynsCustomsUnion (if Con win they can try for Canada or something similar?)

    Do it Jezza! :D
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    Benpointer said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    Interesting comments. Do you think Brexit or the EU is a central issue to most people's lives?

    I think it is but they don't know it; most people don't appreciate how important Europe is to our lives today imo.
    Lol @ the usual Tory activist trying to persuade everyone to get worked up about Europe rather than trivia like housing, health and transport.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    kle4 said:

    Benpointer said:

    It was no doubt not original but very apt nevertheless...

    https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1111326290836144128

    It's a good line, which is why it is being used so much, but really it is just sad - the best chance for something to get resolved and everyone to move forward at least has been snapped out.

    But here's hoping Monday brings some forward progress, particularly since tomorrow won't - it's a bit of a circus, necessitated by needing to at least try to get something passed to meet the 22 May date.
    I preferred the one about Mrs May not having enough support to resign.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,245
    Jeremy Hunt interview the Evening Standard

    'Like a Theresa May 2.0 with updated software, says a former minister. If she's the iPhone 4, he's the 8s'

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-hunt-on-theresa-may-and-changing-his-mind-on-brexit-a4103156.html
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,538
    Casino_Royale said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm actually a layer of Gove at present.

    Wise.
    His ratings are absolutely appalling.

    The fact he could do the job of PM perhaps better than any of those is besides the point. This is politics, and he's got an epic fail there.
    The public hate him, unfairly IMHO, but we can't do anything about it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Benpointer said:

    It was no doubt not original but very apt nevertheless...

    https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1111326290836144128

    It's a good line, which is why it is being used so much, but really it is just sad - the best chance for something to get resolved and everyone to move forward at least has been snapped out.

    But here's hoping Monday brings some forward progress, particularly since tomorrow won't - it's a bit of a circus, necessitated by needing to at least try to get something passed to meet the 22 May date.
    I preferred the one about Mrs May not having enough support to resign.
    Or this one...

    https://twitter.com/DuncanWeldon/status/1111008567660822529
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    HYUFD said:

    Jeremy Hunt interview the Evening Standard

    'Like a Theresa May 2.0 with updated software, says a former minister. If she's the iPhone 4, he's the 8s'

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-hunt-on-theresa-may-and-changing-his-mind-on-brexit-a4103156.html

    Was there an 8S? I thought they skipped it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,538
    IanB2 said:

    Benpointer said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    Interesting comments. Do you think Brexit or the EU is a central issue to most people's lives?

    I think it is but they don't know it; most people don't appreciate how important Europe is to our lives today imo.
    Lol @ the usual Tory activist trying to persuade everyone to get worked up about Europe rather than trivia like housing, health and transport.
    I don't think @benoointer is a Tory.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Benpointer said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    Interesting comments. Do you think Brexit or the EU is a central issue to most people's lives?

    I think it is but they don't know it; most people don't appreciate how important Europe is to our lives today imo.
    Lol @ the usual Tory activist trying to persuade everyone to get worked up about Europe rather than trivia like housing, health and transport.
    I don't think @benoointer is a Tory.
    Perceptive and accurate. But I assumed @IanB2 was referring to @Casino_Royale... else I'd have been mortified!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    GIN1138 said:

    We have a path forwards:



    GIN1138 said:



    1. WA passes minus PD

    2. Theresa May resigns - Con leadership election - Theresa stays on as PM during leadership election.

    3. We leave the EU on 22nd May with the WA.

    4. New Con leader.

    5. General election to decide what we want from our future arrangements.

    6. New government begins negotiations for future trade deal endorsed by general election.

    Can that work?


    Labour/Jezza should go for this. They get their much wanted general election by July and if they win it they can implement #CorbynsCustomsUnion (if Con win they can try for Canada or something similar?)

    Do it Jezza! :D
    After (1) Corbyn should immediately table a VONC. Assuming the DUP are true to their word it might be close.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,245
    New report says what we really need is a high-quality private rental market like Switzerland and Germany not higher home ownership, that would also improve flexibility in the economy and and keep UK unemployment down

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-home-ownership-and-what-it-really-costs-the-workforce-a4103281.html
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    Benpointer said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Benpointer said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    Interesting comments. Do you think Brexit or the EU is a central issue to most people's lives?

    I think it is but they don't know it; most people don't appreciate how important Europe is to our lives today imo.
    Lol @ the usual Tory activist trying to persuade everyone to get worked up about Europe rather than trivia like housing, health and transport.
    I don't think @benoointer is a Tory.
    Perceptive and accurate. But I assumed @IanB2 was referring to @Casino_Royale... else I'd have been mortified!
    I think the blockquotes might have been off in the thread. It was aimed at whoever was suggesting people needed to appreciate how Europe should be the biggest issue in their lives.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,737
    HYUFD said:

    New report says what we really need is a high-quality private rental market like Switzerland and Germany not higher home ownership, that would also improve flexibility in the economy and and keep UK unemployment down

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-home-ownership-and-what-it-really-costs-the-workforce-a4103281.html

    Load of bollocks, reports by the parasites for the parasites.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,606
    Benpointer said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    Interesting comments. Do you think Brexit or the EU is a central issue to most people's lives?

    I think it is but they don't know it; most people don't appreciate how important Europe is to our lives today imo.
    A great number of people did know it, hence UKIP winning the Euros in 2014, getting 13% at the 2015 GE, and Leave winning the referendum in 2016
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    Bottom line is that if Government fails again tomorrow and Letwin produces a supported option on Monday, the pressure on government to change direction will be immense.

    Mind, it is Letwin, so let's not get our hopes up.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    IanB2 said:

    Bottom line is that if Government fails again tomorrow and Letwin produces a supported option on Monday, the pressure on government to change direction will be immense.

    Mind, it is Letwin, so let's not get our hopes up.

    Let Letwin win?
  • isamisam Posts: 42,606
    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Bottom line is that if Government fails again tomorrow and Letwin produces a supported option on Monday, the pressure on government to change direction will be immense.

    Mind, it is Letwin, so let's not get our hopes up.

    Let Letwin win?
    B)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    isam said:

    Benpointer said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    FWIW, I think the Tories need to skip a whole generation and do a wholesale reboot. Experience be damned, as the problem is far more fundamental.

    That's why my (personal) choice is Johnny Mercer. On the fence originally over Brexit, not thinking it really was a central issue to his constituents lives, and very reasonable and human, he now favours Brexit, but also sees the huge weaknesses of the Tories and knows they must change.

    I don't know if he can do it but I pray he can, and build a strong team around him. I hope he's getting training and support.

    Interesting comments. Do you think Brexit or the EU is a central issue to most people's lives?

    I think it is but they don't know it; most people don't appreciate how important Europe is to our lives today imo.
    A great number of people did know it, hence UKIP winning the Euros in 2014, getting 13% at the 2015 GE, and Leave winning the referendum in 2016
    At best that suggests 13% agree, and I'd suggest a chunk of UKIP's vote is straight protest or NOTA. The Euros and the referendum are obviously about Europe and the votes count the same whether the X is marked lightly or heavily etched into the ballot paper.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,737
    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Bottom line is that if Government fails again tomorrow and Letwin produces a supported option on Monday, the pressure on government to change direction will be immense.

    Mind, it is Letwin, so let's not get our hopes up.

    Let Letwin win?
    :D
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,737
    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Bottom line is that if Government fails again tomorrow and Letwin produces a supported option on Monday, the pressure on government to change direction will be immense.

    Mind, it is Letwin, so let's not get our hopes up.

    Let Letwin win?
    :D
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,784
    If the market were to be that of the next Conservative leader to lose a general election, there is a plausible case for Gove to be the favorite.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    Wulfrun_Phil said:

    If the market were to be that of the next Conservative leader to lose a general election, there is a plausible case for Gove to be the favorite.

    With a side bet on Mrs May ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    IanB2 said:

    Bottom line is that if Government fails again tomorrow and Letwin produces a supported option on Monday, the pressure on government to change direction will be immense.

    Mind, it is Letwin, so let's not get our hopes up.

    Never do anymore, but it's better than hoping Parliament will do the logical thing (given how many don't have as big an issue with the WA as the PD) and pass the damn thing tomorrow.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,897
    HYUFD said:

    Jeremy Hunt interview the Evening Standard

    'Like a Theresa May 2.0 with updated software, says a former minister. If she's the iPhone 4, he's the 8s'

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-hunt-on-theresa-may-and-changing-his-mind-on-brexit-a4103156.html

    I can't work out whether that is supposed to be a complement or an insult. But the fact that a former Minister of the Crown can spout such inane wank says a lot about how we have ended up in this mess.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    edited March 2019
    Aren't the DUP constantly telling us how they won't change position, what else exactly do they think is changing? As he says he expects no rabbits, so why not just say they will never ever vote for anything May is currently proposing?
    https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1111336132195897344
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,538
    HYUFD said:

    New report says what we really need is a high-quality private rental market like Switzerland and Germany not higher home ownership, that would also improve flexibility in the economy and and keep UK unemployment down

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-home-ownership-and-what-it-really-costs-the-workforce-a4103281.html

    HYUFD said:

    New report says what we really need is a high-quality private rental market like Switzerland and Germany not higher home ownership, that would also improve flexibility in the economy and and keep UK unemployment down

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-home-ownership-and-what-it-really-costs-the-workforce-a4103281.html

    I read the article, and was not convinced. I think that while the availability of housing to rent will help labour mobility, flexible labour markets are much more important for providing jobs.

    Greece has high unemployment because it has inflexible labour markets, and because its economy fell off a cliff. Spain has had a very good record of job creation since 2014.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,538
    kle4 said:

    Aren't the DUP constantly telling us how they won't change position, what else exactly do they think is changing? As he says he expects no rabbits, so why not just say they will never ever vote for anything May is currently proposing?
    https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1111336132195897344

    It's easy to predict to the DUP's response to any proposal.

    No.

    If it were possible to win over the 31 opposition MP's who oppose a 2nd referendum, I'd say f*ck the DUP.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    MayDay’s central self-preservation strategy presumably requires her to create a Schrodinger’s Brexit scenario, whereby Brexit is simultaneously alive and dead, and prolonging that as long as possible, ideally for several years. Therefore she stays in office.

    You have to hand it to the girl, she’s doing well so far!
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Aren't the DUP constantly telling us how they won't change position, what else exactly do they think is changing? As he says he expects no rabbits, so why not just say they will never ever vote for anything May is currently proposing?
    https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1111336132195897344

    I'd say f*ck the DUP.
    They don’t agree with that sort of thing.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited March 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Jeremy Hunt interview the Evening Standard

    'Like a Theresa May 2.0 with updated software, says a former minister. If she's the iPhone 4, he's the 8s'

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-hunt-on-theresa-may-and-changing-his-mind-on-brexit-a4103156.html

    I'm not sure that is right. Gove is Theresa May redux: inflexible, his way or nothing. Hunt is Boris: ambitious but somehow lightweight. His first triumph was to stop the BBC showing The Apprentice. Though in the end, I'm not sure drawing these parallels gets us very far.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,245
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    New report says what we really need is a high-quality private rental market like Switzerland and Germany not higher home ownership, that would also improve flexibility in the economy and and keep UK unemployment down

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-home-ownership-and-what-it-really-costs-the-workforce-a4103281.html

    Load of bollocks, reports by the parasites for the parasites.
    It makes the point Spain for example has 80% home ownership and 20% unemployment compared to Germany which has less than 5% unemployment and lower home ownership. It also has looked at US states and found stated with lower home ownership and more private renting had lower unemployment since 1950
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,966
    Champagne on standby. I only wish he'd been in charge of the first phase of negotiations...
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,125
    _Anazina_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Aren't the DUP constantly telling us how they won't change position, what else exactly do they think is changing? As he says he expects no rabbits, so why not just say they will never ever vote for anything May is currently proposing?
    https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1111336132195897344

    I'd say f*ck the DUP.
    They don’t agree with that sort of thing.

    Careful now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,245
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jeremy Hunt interview the Evening Standard

    'Like a Theresa May 2.0 with updated software, says a former minister. If she's the iPhone 4, he's the 8s'

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-hunt-on-theresa-may-and-changing-his-mind-on-brexit-a4103156.html

    I can't work out whether that is supposed to be a complement or an insult. But the fact that a former Minister of the Crown can spout such inane wank says a lot about how we have ended up in this mess.
    I think It is trying to present Hunt as the Tory Mitt Romney which in many respects he is, from the business background to the corporate style and the 'etch a sketch' movement he has made from Remain to Leave and the right and would try and make back to the centre again for the general election
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,245
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    New report says what we really need is a high-quality private rental market like Switzerland and Germany not higher home ownership, that would also improve flexibility in the economy and and keep UK unemployment down

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-home-ownership-and-what-it-really-costs-the-workforce-a4103281.html

    HYUFD said:

    New report says what we really need is a high-quality private rental market like Switzerland and Germany not higher home ownership, that would also improve flexibility in the economy and and keep UK unemployment down

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-home-ownership-and-what-it-really-costs-the-workforce-a4103281.html

    I read the article, and was not convinced. I think that while the availability of housing to rent will help labour mobility, flexible labour markets are much more important for providing jobs.

    Greece has high unemployment because it has inflexible labour markets, and because its economy fell off a cliff. Spain has had a very good record of job creation since 2014.
    What we really need is more flexible Labour markets, better private rental conditions and more home ownership
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,245
    edited March 2019
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jeremy Hunt interview the Evening Standard

    'Like a Theresa May 2.0 with updated software, says a former minister. If she's the iPhone 4, he's the 8s'

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-hunt-on-theresa-may-and-changing-his-mind-on-brexit-a4103156.html

    I'm not sure that is right. Gove is Theresa May redux: inflexible, his way or nothing. Hunt is Boris: ambitious but somehow lightweight. His first triumph was to stop the BBC showing The Apprentice. Though in the end, I'm not sure drawing these parallels gets us very far.
    Hunt lacks the charisma of Boris though, he is Romney to Boris' Trump
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    why is boycottrachelriley trending ... what now?
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    New report says what we really need is a high-quality private rental market like Switzerland and Germany not higher home ownership, that would also improve flexibility in the economy and and keep UK unemployment down

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-home-ownership-and-what-it-really-costs-the-workforce-a4103281.html

    HYUFD said:

    New report says what we really need is a high-quality private rental market like Switzerland and Germany not higher home ownership, that would also improve flexibility in the economy and and keep UK unemployment down

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-home-ownership-and-what-it-really-costs-the-workforce-a4103281.html

    I read the article, and was not convinced. I think that while the availability of housing to rent will help labour mobility, flexible labour markets are much more important for providing jobs.

    Greece has high unemployment because it has inflexible labour markets, and because its economy fell off a cliff. Spain has had a very good record of job creation since 2014.
    What we really need is more flexible Labour markets, better private rental conditions and more home ownership
    If you want more home ownership you need to stop propping up overvalued property prices. Laying on the infrastructure to properly support them - more schools, hospitals, roads, reservoirs etc - might help to butthat means joined up Gov. unlikely to happen.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Bottom line is that if Government fails again tomorrow and Letwin produces a supported option on Monday, the pressure on government to change direction will be immense.

    Mind, it is Letwin, so let's not get our hopes up.

    Never do anymore, but it's better than hoping Parliament will do the logical thing (given how many don't have as big an issue with the WA as the PD) and pass the damn thing tomorrow.
    Well, if Parliament is really committed to avoiding No Deal *AND* it won't contemplate passing the WA (whether directly or with a Deal/Remain referendum attached, which the EU would presumably provide an extension for,) then the only other realistic way this can be achieved now is through Revocation.

    MPs could well find themselves on the 10th or 11th of April facing Revoke or No Deal as the only two remaining options, and having to vote for the former or allow the latter to come to pass by default. That'll be fun for them - though no more or less than they deserve, frankly.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm actually a layer of Gove at present.

    Not the puffy moist outer layer, I hope.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,737
    edited March 2019
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    why is boycottrachelriley trending ... what now?

    She's a Zionist Nazi, one imagines.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Mayor Pete in the last 4 national polls: 1/2/3/4%

    At this rate he'll have won the primary by the first debate, and will have 500% support come the convention.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,190
    I think this is clever politics by TM

    Putting the WDA in front of the HOC gives the opportunity for the ERG, DUP and labour to defeat it heavily, thereby ending the deal and leaving on the 22nd May

    There are many comments on what happens next but most of them ignore the fact that what happens next is the 12th April and the ERG and DUP dream of no deal

    There has to be an agreement next week in the HOC that is actually douable, and has sufficient support to put in place the legislation to stop no deal. There is no point in saying labour want a GE and should support a second referendum as that decision would be out of time

    The HOC needs to agree an extension to the 12th April that accepts we elect MEPs in May and has a proposition that the EU can agree to, including a referendum, as the EU will not permit this to continue

    Today has seen many in the EU expressing horror at us being in their new Parliament and the demands for no deal by the EU are at the highest level so far

    Next monday needs to see the elimination of the amendments until a majority view emerges and TM creates the political space to accept the verdict, as she cannot be sacked now she is going

    Could TM final act be to agree to the deal with a confirmation referendum and then put in place her succession

    Fantasy or possibility ?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,883
    @Big_G_NorthWales and what happens if the public says ‘no’ to the deal in this ‘confirmatory referendum’? We’re back to square one in interpreting the result. Does it mean the country wants no deal, a different deal or remain?

    Awful idea all round.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I think this is clever politics by TM

    Putting the WDA in front of the HOC gives the opportunity for the ERG, DUP and labour to defeat it heavily, thereby ending the deal and leaving on the 22nd May

    There are many comments on what happens next but most of them ignore the fact that what happens next is the 12th April and the ERG and DUP dream of no deal

    There has to be an agreement next week in the HOC that is actually douable, and has sufficient support to put in place the legislation to stop no deal. There is no point in saying labour want a GE and should support a second referendum as that decision would be out of time

    The HOC needs to agree an extension to the 12th April that accepts we elect MEPs in May and has a proposition that the EU can agree to, including a referendum, as the EU will not permit this to continue

    Today has seen many in the EU expressing horror at us being in their new Parliament and the demands for no deal by the EU are at the highest level so far

    Next monday needs to see the elimination of the amendments until a majority view emerges and TM creates the political space to accept the verdict, as she cannot be sacked now she is going

    Could TM final act be to agree to the deal with a confirmation referendum and then put in place her succession

    Fantasy or possibility ?

    You lost me after the first sentence ....
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I think this is clever politics by TM

    Putting the WDA in front of the HOC gives the opportunity for the ERG, DUP and labour to defeat it heavily, thereby ending the deal and leaving on the 22nd May

    There are many comments on what happens next but most of them ignore the fact that what happens next is the 12th April and the ERG and DUP dream of no deal

    There has to be an agreement next week in the HOC that is actually douable, and has sufficient support to put in place the legislation to stop no deal. There is no point in saying labour want a GE and should support a second referendum as that decision would be out of time

    The HOC needs to agree an extension to the 12th April that accepts we elect MEPs in May and has a proposition that the EU can agree to, including a referendum, as the EU will not permit this to continue

    Today has seen many in the EU expressing horror at us being in their new Parliament and the demands for no deal by the EU are at the highest level so far

    Next monday needs to see the elimination of the amendments until a majority view emerges and TM creates the political space to accept the verdict, as she cannot be sacked now she is going

    Could TM final act be to agree to the deal with a confirmation referendum and then put in place her succession

    Fantasy or possibility ?

    I didn't follow that. You're saying she now secretly supports a confirmatory referendum and has a cunning plan to get one by having the WA defeated tomorrow?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,757
    edited March 2019
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    why is boycottrachelriley trending ... what now?

    She tweeted this

    https://twitter.com/RachelRileyRR/status/1110528023495888896

    Which led to a boycott of The Canary by those Zionists at MacMillan Cancer Support and others.

    https://twitter.com/macmillancancer/status/1110593435810054145
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    Given how Johnson covered himself in glory while at the Foreign Office I think it's becoming clear that Gove performed a tremendous public duty by sabotaging his bid for the leadership in 2016. Accordingly there would be justice in him now being rewarded for it.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,883
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Which led to boycott of The Canary by those Zionists at MacMillan Cancer Support and others.

    :D:D
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    A lot of them were before he got the job, as were a lot of doctors before Hunt became Health Sec
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,883
    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    A lot of them were before he got the job, as were a lot of doctors before Hunt became Health Sec
    Tories running out of supporters. Soon it’ll be just farmers and Tommy Robinson supporters.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    OblitusSumMe said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    Given how Johnson covered himself in glory while at the Foreign Office I think it's becoming clear that Gove performed a tremendous public duty by sabotaging his bid for the leadership in 2016. Accordingly there would be justice in him now being rewarded for it.
    No one like a turncoat or those who stab others in the back - no matter what Johnson’s failings. Gove has shown he can’t be trusted.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Gallowgate said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales and what happens if the public says ‘no’ to the deal in this ‘confirmatory referendum’? We’re back to square one in interpreting the result. Does it mean the country wants no deal, a different deal or remain?

    Awful idea all round.

    The assumption is that the EU will allow an extension for a referendum *IF* the proposition is Deal vs Remain. This gives the EU certainty, with two outcomes either of which they can accept, eliminating No Deal.

    A referendum in which rejection puts us back to square one is a non-starter. The EU won't swallow it, and all of the MPs who are backing a referendum are doing it with the express intention of persuading the public to vote to stay in.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I think this is clever politics by TM

    Putting the WDA in front of the HOC gives the opportunity for the ERG, DUP and labour to defeat it heavily, thereby ending the deal and leaving on the 22nd May

    There are many comments on what happens next but most of them ignore the fact that what happens next is the 12th April and the ERG and DUP dream of no deal

    There has to be an agreement next week in the HOC that is actually douable, and has sufficient support to put in place the legislation to stop no deal. There is no point in saying labour want a GE and should support a second referendum as that decision would be out of time

    The HOC needs to agree an extension to the 12th April that accepts we elect MEPs in May and has a proposition that the EU can agree to, including a referendum, as the EU will not permit this to continue

    Today has seen many in the EU expressing horror at us being in their new Parliament and the demands for no deal by the EU are at the highest level so far

    Next monday needs to see the elimination of the amendments until a majority view emerges and TM creates the political space to accept the verdict, as she cannot be sacked now she is going

    Could TM final act be to agree to the deal with a confirmation referendum and then put in place her succession

    Fantasy or possibility ?

    If so, it will represent an enormous political cock-up on her part; she could have agreed the Deal with a confirmatory referendum back in December (and stayed on btw).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,757
    Gallowgate said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    A lot of them were before he got the job, as were a lot of doctors before Hunt became Health Sec
    Tories running out of supporters. Soon it’ll be just farmers and Tommy Robinson supporters.
    Farmers are bricking it over No Deal, so not even farmers might be supporting the Tories.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    Black_Rook said:

    Gallowgate said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales and what happens if the public says ‘no’ to the deal in this ‘confirmatory referendum’? We’re back to square one in interpreting the result. Does it mean the country wants no deal, a different deal or remain?

    Awful idea all round.

    The assumption is that the EU will allow an extension for a referendum *IF* the proposition is Deal vs Remain. This gives the EU certainty, with two outcomes either of which they can accept, eliminating No Deal.

    A referendum in which rejection puts us back to square one is a non-starter. The EU won't swallow it, and all of the MPs who are backing a referendum are doing it with the express intention of persuading the public to vote to stay in.
    Indeed.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,904
    Rachel Riley - the best thing to come from Essex after Depeche Mode (um, and Blur!)
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    Gallowgate said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    A lot of them were before he got the job, as were a lot of doctors before Hunt became Health Sec
    Tories running out of supporters. Soon it’ll be just farmers and Tommy Robinson supporters.
    Not according to the polls.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,160
    edited March 2019
    OblitusSumMe said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    Given how Johnson covered himself in glory while at the Foreign Office I think it's becoming clear that Gove performed a tremendous public duty by sabotaging his bid for the leadership in 2016. Accordingly there would be justice in him now being rewarded for it.
    Do people think Gove performed this service on some point of principle or was it down to a chat with his missus about how the association was damaging The Gover's long term prospects?

    'But screw your courage to the sticking place,
    And we'll not fail.'
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    edited March 2019
    Hang on a mo. Why doesn't the graph above look anything like this one:

    image

    Ok one is next PM and one is next Tory Leader but BoJo was ahead of Govey yesterday.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,883
    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Gallowgate said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    A lot of them were before he got the job, as were a lot of doctors before Hunt became Health Sec
    Tories running out of supporters. Soon it’ll be just farmers and Tommy Robinson supporters.
    Not according to the polls.
    There’s a lot of farmers and Tommy Robinson supporters. 🤷🏻‍♂️
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    "There's almost no chance of getting out of the backstop ever without the political declaration being attached."

    Bridgen doesn't understand does he?

    We will only go into transition with both the WA and PD signed and ratified by means of resolution. So no backstop without a PD.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,190
    Gallowgate said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales and what happens if the public says ‘no’ to the deal in this ‘confirmatory referendum’? We’re back to square one in interpreting the result. Does it mean the country wants no deal, a different deal or remain?

    Awful idea all round.

    If no then we remain
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    Benpointer said:

    Black_Rook said:

    Gallowgate said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales and what happens if the public says ‘no’ to the deal in this ‘confirmatory referendum’? We’re back to square one in interpreting the result. Does it mean the country wants no deal, a different deal or remain?

    Awful idea all round.

    The assumption is that the EU will allow an extension for a referendum *IF* the proposition is Deal vs Remain. This gives the EU certainty, with two outcomes either of which they can accept, eliminating No Deal.

    A referendum in which rejection puts us back to square one is a non-starter. The EU won't swallow it, and all of the MPs who are backing a referendum are doing it with the express intention of persuading the public to vote to stay in.
    Indeed.
    +1

    A further referendum is a painful choice not without potential downsides. MPs aren't going to vote for it unless the vote will resolve the matter, whichever way it goes, and with either answer being clearly implementable. Having one side of the question put us back in limbo is never going to happen.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,245
    Gallowgate said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    A lot of them were before he got the job, as were a lot of doctors before Hunt became Health Sec
    Tories running out of supporters. Soon it’ll be just farmers and Tommy Robinson supporters.
    Tommy Robinson supporters vote UKIP and the Tories lead with both ABs and C2s still in most polls
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,190
    JackW said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I think this is clever politics by TM

    Putting the WDA in front of the HOC gives the opportunity for the ERG, DUP and labour to defeat it heavily, thereby ending the deal and leaving on the 22nd May

    There are many comments on what happens next but most of them ignore the fact that what happens next is the 12th April and the ERG and DUP dream of no deal

    There has to be an agreement next week in the HOC that is actually douable, and has sufficient support to put in place the legislation to stop no deal. There is no point in saying labour want a GE and should support a second referendum as that decision would be out of time

    The HOC needs to agree an extension to the 12th April that accepts we elect MEPs in May and has a proposition that the EU can agree to, including a referendum, as the EU will not permit this to continue

    Today has seen many in the EU expressing horror at us being in their new Parliament and the demands for no deal by the EU are at the highest level so far

    Next monday needs to see the elimination of the amendments until a majority view emerges and TM creates the political space to accept the verdict, as she cannot be sacked now she is going

    Could TM final act be to agree to the deal with a confirmation referendum and then put in place her succession

    Fantasy or possibility ?

    You lost me after the first sentence ....
    And the rest
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    edited March 2019
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Gallowgate said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    A lot of them were before he got the job, as were a lot of doctors before Hunt became Health Sec
    Tories running out of supporters. Soon it’ll be just farmers and Tommy Robinson supporters.
    Farmers are bricking it over No Deal, so not even farmers might be supporting the Tories.
    Losing all their subsidies didn’t do NZ’s farmers any harm - but to scrap those means being a capitalist and supporting primacy of consumer interests and competition. Probably explains why Gov has promised to safeguard subsidies.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,757
    Benpointer said:

    Hang on a mo. Why doesn't the graph above look anything like this one:

    image

    Different markets, there's now a chance that Corbyn becomes next PM after a snap election.

    This week two esteemed PBers closed out their big reds against Corbyn as next PM.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,190
    Stereotomy said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I think this is clever politics by TM

    Putting the WDA in front of the HOC gives the opportunity for the ERG, DUP and labour to defeat it heavily, thereby ending the deal and leaving on the 22nd May

    There are many comments on what happens next but most of them ignore the fact that what happens next is the 12th April and the ERG and DUP dream of no deal

    There has to be an agreement next week in the HOC that is actually douable, and has sufficient support to put in place the legislation to stop no deal. There is no point in saying labour want a GE and should support a second referendum as that decision would be out of time

    The HOC needs to agree an extension to the 12th April that accepts we elect MEPs in May and has a proposition that the EU can agree to, including a referendum, as the EU will not permit this to continue

    Today has seen many in the EU expressing horror at us being in their new Parliament and the demands for no deal by the EU are at the highest level so far

    Next monday needs to see the elimination of the amendments until a majority view emerges and TM creates the political space to accept the verdict, as she cannot be sacked now she is going

    Could TM final act be to agree to the deal with a confirmation referendum and then put in place her succession

    Fantasy or possibility ?

    I didn't follow that. You're saying she now secretly supports a confirmatory referendum and has a cunning plan to get one by having the WA defeated tomorrow?
    I think she is making space to adopt the majority view of the HOC which might just be a confirmatory referendum. She has nothing to lose now
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    AmpfieldAndy said:

    OblitusSumMe said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    Given how Johnson covered himself in glory while at the Foreign Office I think it's becoming clear that Gove performed a tremendous public duty by sabotaging his bid for the leadership in 2016. Accordingly there would be justice in him now being rewarded for it.
    No one like a turncoat or those who stab others in the back - no matter what Johnson’s failings. Gove has shown he can’t be trusted.
    If I had to lend one of them some money I think I'd have more chance of seeing it again with Gove
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Benpointer said:

    Hang on a mo. Why doesn't the graph above look anything like this one:

    image

    Different markets, there's now a chance that Corbyn becomes next PM after a snap election.

    This week two esteemed PBers closed out their big reds against Corbyn as next PM.
    I have a ling track record of breaking even betting-wise through my abstinence policy. I think I had better stick to it or I'll end up subsidising the rest of you. :wink:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,245
    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    I fancy Hancock if May goes if the Tories stay in Government, Boris if the new leader is picked in opposition.

    Remember if May's Deal passes tomorrow as a result of Labour MPs from Leave seats backing the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure Brexit but leaving the PD to be decided later then the DUP will still back a VONC and we will have a snap general election perhaps even with May leading the Tories.

    If the Deal fails again No 10 is clear May will stay and perhaps call a snap general election to get a majority for her Deal anyway
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Pub Quiz question 2030. Who was PM between Theresa May and Layla Moran?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Stereotomy said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I think this is clever politics by TM

    Putting the WDA in front of the HOC gives the opportunity for the ERG, DUP and labour to defeat it heavily, thereby ending the deal and leaving on the 22nd May

    There are many comments on what happens next but most of them ignore the fact that what happens next is the 12th April and the ERG and DUP dream of no deal

    There has to be an agreement next week in the HOC that is actually douable, and has sufficient support to put in place the legislation to stop no deal. There is no point in saying labour want a GE and should support a second referendum as that decision would be out of time

    The HOC needs to agree an extension to the 12th April that accepts we elect MEPs in May and has a proposition that the EU can agree to, including a referendum, as the EU will not permit this to continue

    Today has seen many in the EU expressing horror at us being in their new Parliament and the demands for no deal by the EU are at the highest level so far

    Next monday needs to see the elimination of the amendments until a majority view emerges and TM creates the political space to accept the verdict, as she cannot be sacked now she is going

    Could TM final act be to agree to the deal with a confirmation referendum and then put in place her succession

    Fantasy or possibility ?

    I didn't follow that. You're saying she now secretly supports a confirmatory referendum and has a cunning plan to get one by having the WA defeated tomorrow?
    I think she is making space to adopt the majority view of the HOC which might just be a confirmatory referendum. She has nothing to lose now
    Legacy. As such she has everything to lose.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,190
    Benpointer said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I think this is clever politics by TM

    Putting the WDA in front of the HOC gives the opportunity for the ERG, DUP and labour to defeat it heavily, thereby ending the deal and leaving on the 22nd May

    There are many comments on what happens next but most of them ignore the fact that what happens next is the 12th April and the ERG and DUP dream of no deal

    There has to be an agreement next week in the HOC that is actually douable, and has sufficient support to put in place the legislation to stop no deal. There is no point in saying labour want a GE and should support a second referendum as that decision would be out of time

    The HOC needs to agree an extension to the 12th April that accepts we elect MEPs in May and has a proposition that the EU can agree to, including a referendum, as the EU will not permit this to continue

    Today has seen many in the EU expressing horror at us being in their new Parliament and the demands for no deal by the EU are at the highest level so far

    Next monday needs to see the elimination of the amendments until a majority view emerges and TM creates the political space to accept the verdict, as she cannot be sacked now she is going

    Could TM final act be to agree to the deal with a confirmation referendum and then put in place her succession

    Fantasy or possibility ?

    If so, it will represent an enormous political cock-up on her part; she could have agreed the Deal with a confirmatory referendum back in December (and stayed on btw).
    No I do not agree Ben. She did not have the space then.

    The conservative party would have gone crackers
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,245
    edited March 2019
    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    The Tories have not won a majority of the teacher vote for decades and even in 2010 they got less support from teachers than nationally
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,904
    Casino_Royale said:

    I'm actually a layer of Gove at present.

    What if Gove was one of us
    Just a slob like one of us
    Blu blu blu
    Blu blu blu
    Bla bla bli bli bli
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    AmpfieldAndy said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Gallowgate said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    A lot of them were before he got the job, as were a lot of doctors before Hunt became Health Sec
    Tories running out of supporters. Soon it’ll be just farmers and Tommy Robinson supporters.
    Farmers are bricking it over No Deal, so not even farmers might be supporting the Tories.
    Losing all their subsidies didn’t do NZ’s farmers any harm - but to scrap those means being a capitalist and supporting primacy of consumer interests and competition. Probably explains why Gov has promised to safeguard subsidies.
    Pah the big farmers (i.e. landowners) will see their EU subsidies replaced by similar from any Conservative govt.

    Whereas if Labour get in they might be wwishing we were still in the EU!
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    IanB2 said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    OblitusSumMe said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    Given how Johnson covered himself in glory while at the Foreign Office I think it's becoming clear that Gove performed a tremendous public duty by sabotaging his bid for the leadership in 2016. Accordingly there would be justice in him now being rewarded for it.
    No one like a turncoat or those who stab others in the back - no matter what Johnson’s failings. Gove has shown he can’t be trusted.
    If I had to lend one of them some money I think I'd have more chance of seeing it again with Gove
    You’d never see it again. They are all politicians!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Benpointer said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I think this is clever politics by TM

    Putting the WDA in front of the HOC gives the opportunity for the ERG, DUP and labour to defeat it heavily, thereby ending the deal and leaving on the 22nd May

    There are many comments on what happens next but most of them ignore the fact that what happens next is the 12th April and the ERG and DUP dream of no deal

    There has to be an agreement next week in the HOC that is actually douable, and has sufficient support to put in place the legislation to stop no deal. There is no point in saying labour want a GE and should support a second referendum as that decision would be out of time

    The HOC needs to agree an extension to the 12th April that accepts we elect MEPs in May and has a proposition that the EU can agree to, including a referendum, as the EU will not permit this to continue

    Today has seen many in the EU expressing horror at us being in their new Parliament and the demands for no deal by the EU are at the highest level so far

    Next monday needs to see the elimination of the amendments until a majority view emerges and TM creates the political space to accept the verdict, as she cannot be sacked now she is going

    Could TM final act be to agree to the deal with a confirmation referendum and then put in place her succession

    Fantasy or possibility ?

    If so, it will represent an enormous political cock-up on her part; she could have agreed the Deal with a confirmatory referendum back in December (and stayed on btw).
    No I do not agree Ben. She did not have the space then.

    The conservative party would have gone crackers
    Yes, you might have a point. Mind you won't it go ballistic anyway?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,631
    Fenman said:

    Pub Quiz question 2030. Who was PM between Theresa May and Layla Moran?

    Boris Johnson - for 6 weeks?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,041
    Black_Rook said:

    Gallowgate said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales and what happens if the public says ‘no’ to the deal in this ‘confirmatory referendum’? We’re back to square one in interpreting the result. Does it mean the country wants no deal, a different deal or remain?

    Awful idea all round.

    The assumption is that the EU will allow an extension for a referendum *IF* the proposition is Deal vs Remain. This gives the EU certainty, with two outcomes either of which they can accept, eliminating No Deal.

    A referendum in which rejection puts us back to square one is a non-starter. The EU won't swallow it, and all of the MPs who are backing a referendum are doing it with the express intention of persuading the public to vote to stay in.
    IMV either (any) choice inn a referendum has to be passed by parliament (both houses) *before* it is held.

    In other words, parliament passes both yes and no results, subject to the result of the referendum. Only then is the referendum held.

    To add extra complexity, both results would also need to be agreed with the EU, so we know neither yes nor no campaign is selling unicorn flatulence to parliament and the public - as leave did last time.

    This will almost certainly be a very loooonnnnnggggg and convoluted process, and is therefore sadly improbable. It also requires intelligence within the government and parliament as a whole, which makes it impossible. ;)
  • eekeek Posts: 31,285
    edited March 2019
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Gallowgate said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Stereotomy said:

    AmpfieldAndy said:

    Difficult to see a winner frankly. I can’t see Gove becoming party leader after he knifed Johnson in the back last time and given how he antagonised the teachers. Johnson has no obvious qualities beyond being a good journalist but he seems to be the members choice if he made it to the MPs short list. Hunt and Javid are all talk and no substance. Raab would have a good chance but only if Johnson doesnt stand.

    Whoever wins needs to have a lot more charisma and campaigning skills than May, but that’s not setting the bar particularly high.

    The teachers Gove antagonised ain't Conservative members.
    A lot of them were before he got the job, as were a lot of doctors before Hunt became Health Sec
    Tories running out of supporters. Soon it’ll be just farmers and Tommy Robinson supporters.
    Farmers are bricking it over No Deal, so not even farmers might be supporting the Tories.
    +1 - No Deal will make my chief argument for avoiding moving to the Dales disappear as house prices fall further...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,809
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    "There's almost no chance of getting out of the backstop ever without the political declaration being attached."

    Bridgen doesn't understand does he?

    We will only go into transition with both the WA and PD signed and ratified by means of resolution. So no backstop without a PD.

    The intention seems to be to use the Bill itself to ratify both WA and PD. The Bill is still under wraps and rumour appears to be that when people see it they won't like it. What happens if waverers did vote through MV2.5 and then turn against the Bill isn't clear.
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