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Spot on. We may not like it, but as a political institution the EU 'works' in a way that our national politics doesn't. The senior EU politicians are all former European national leaders who have come up through PR systems where problem solving and compromise are their bread and butter.Nigelb said:What is remarkable about the EU decision is not that it elegantly allows May one more chance (while removing the immediate No Deal blackmail threat from her armoury), subject to a tight deadline, removes the possibility of any further can kicking on her part, while still leaving options open to Parliament... it is that a group of nations with differing interests managed to formulate and agree to so elegant a solution in so short a time.
And moreover displays a great deal of goodwill on their part.
Whereas ours are highly trained in shouting and heckling their counterparts sitting across the aisle.0 -
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?0 -
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/04/no-deal-brexit-would-be-catastrophic-uk-farmers-warns-nfuDavidL said:
They have survived in the EU with zero tariff imports. Gove has set out a support structure similar to what we have now initially albeit he has some better ideas going forward. These will probably have to go on the back burner to ensure regulatory equivalence to some extent.Streeter said:
UK farms are too small and inefficient to compete against zero tariff imports. They will be out of business as fast as you can say turkey and Christmas.DavidL said:
UK agriculture will be unaffected if (a) we grant work permits for temporary workers, (b) we agree tariffs at nil and (c)maintain regulatory equivalence until a trade deal is agreed. All of that seems extremely likely to me.Streeter said:
You overlooked the destruction of UK agriculture.DavidL said:0 -
With it, the UK leaves the EU. That is the full extent of the referendum mandate.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?
I don’t like any of the result, so your question is irrelevant.
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There's still my "Brexistential crisis" to come.....Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Watched ITV News last night. Whoever thought to add to the catalogue of dire portmanteaus with 'Brextension' should be forced to watch 24 hours of Piers Morgan.0 -
I am already there David. Not so sunny this morning although the temperature is not too bad.DavidL said:Anyway off to sunny Aberdeen. Laters.
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Mr. Mark, I'll let you know when Lucifer e-mails me back to confirm the place in Hell I've just reserved for you.0
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Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. B, which EU nation's interest is helped by losing free trade access to the UK with nothing to replace it?
The EU was acting in the EU's interest.
Of course it was. To expect anything else would be absurd.
But they clearly demostrated that interest does not include the purported punishment Brexit motivations they are so often accused of.0 -
The leadership will mostly come from the moderate Labour side (Cooper and Benn) with the thinking mostly from the moderate Conservative side (Letwin and Grieve)Nigelb said:
They need a leader, though.IanB2 said:
Yes, MPs now need to rise to the challenge. They moaned at May's depiction of them Wednesday; well, they now have a few weeks to prove her wrong.CarlottaVance said:
That's a nice gloss:IanB2 said:Guardian:But it was a lack of confidence in the prime minister following her latest performance in front of the leaders that forced the EU’s member states to act to shore up against a no-deal Brexit and allow the British parliament time to take control.
'time to take control'
aka
'make their fecking minds up on how they circumvent the referendum result'.
It being quite clear that neither May nor Corbyn even begin to meet that description.0 -
Norway is leaving the EU, the referendum question asked nothing else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?0 -
FOM was supported by 48%, plus a small percentage of the 52%, so yes it does respect the result of the referendum.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?
Norway+ is the least stupid option, but rather does ask the question "why should we not have a say in writing the rules?" All roads lead back to the Treaty of Rome, because our current deal is the best deal.0 -
Yes - and people who were advocating no deal on the same basis presumably can't deny that fact...Jonathan said:
Norway is leaving the EU, the referendum question asked nothing else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?0 -
Will it? Parliament shows no signs of being able to agree on anything - save, of course, for not wanting Hard Brexit, but this assertion achieves absolutely nothing. Hard Brexit is the law, and will still be the law if the date is put back - it'll just happen on April 12 rather than March 29, that's all.IanB2 said:
Let's see. May's TV address gives them a challenge. So far they have been constrained and whipped to prevent them acting freely. The next couple of weeks will at least be more interesting than seeing the PM do and say the same thing over and over.ydoethur said:
I can answer that now. No.IanB2 said:
No, the PM's TV disaster and Lidlington's broken promise on the next step now gives Letwin/Cooper the extra votes they need to get over the line. The real question is whether the MPs have the political skills that the government lacks to now be able to craft a consensus out of the myriad of competing potential solutions.solarflare said:
May has pretty much nailed her career to the deal and continued to do so last night. So what should really happen is that she holds MV3, it goes down by a long way (now that mostly everyone knows it's not just her deal or no deal at the end of the month), May then says ok it will need a new plan, that means a longer extension and EU parliament elections, I have to resign on principle and let Parliament get on with it.IanB2 said:I wonder whether we'll see MV3 now. Even May can see she'll be defeated again, and will be forced to climb down, and another big defeat does her no favours. She will be forced to eat humble pie and would be better going straight for some sort of indicative vote process directly; Lidlington's previous commitment gives her cover to claim that was what she always intended to do.
What WILL happen is that she'll lose MV3, the EU will go "what's your new plan" and she'll just...not answer. Probably mumble something about MV4. Then we'll largely be back to where we were a couple of days ago with nobody really knowing what the hell is happening.
The Prime Minister's statement of the bleeding obvious from the other night - that MPs can't just keep on saying what they don't want, but need to make up their minds about what they do want - continues to apply. Can they agree on a single course of positive action? Absent a complete u-turn on the WA, this would require a Commons majority for either revocation, a Deal/Remain referendum, or a reasonably clear plan to negotiate an Andrex Soft Brexit, to magically appear in about the next five minutes, when such a thing has remained elusive for a thousand days.
Hard Brexit remains the default, and most likely, outcome.0 -
Mr. B, no, they did not.
If a loan shark gives a debtor a few more days to pay, it's because they want their money, not because they're kind and caring.
The UK would suffer significant turbulence if we left without any sort of transition/deal whatsoever. So would the EU. The EU acted simply in its own interest.0 -
I’ll put you down as a part on the (very small) polite subset of the paranoid Brexiteers, then, Mr,D.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. B, no, they did not.
If a loan shark gives a debtor a few more days to pay, it's because they want their money, not because they're kind and caring.
The UK would suffer significant turbulence if we left without any sort of transition/deal whatsoever. So would the EU. The EU acted simply in its own interest.
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if "working" means having somewhere between a quarter and a third of your electorate voting for extremists - and growing - then we might not wish to rush in to itIanB2 said:
Spot on. We may not like it, but as a political institution the EU 'works' in a way that our national politics doesn't. The senior EU politicians are all former European national leaders who have come up through PR systems where problem solving and compromise are their bread and butter.Nigelb said:What is remarkable about the EU decision is not that it elegantly allows May one more chance (while removing the immediate No Deal blackmail threat from her armoury), subject to a tight deadline, removes the possibility of any further can kicking on her part, while still leaving options open to Parliament... it is that a group of nations with differing interests managed to formulate and agree to so elegant a solution in so short a time.
And moreover displays a great deal of goodwill on their part.
Whereas ours are highly trained in shouting and heckling their counterparts sitting across the aisle.0 -
Agreed.Jonathan said:
Norway is leaving the EU, the referendum question asked nothing else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?0 -
All those ‘We are LEAVING on 29 MARCH 2019’ posts from the PB Union Jackers have aged really, really poorly.
Good morning!0 -
https://twitter.com/PhilipSime/status/1108784517433737216_Anazina_ said:All those ‘We are LEAVING on 29 MARCH 2019’ posts from the PB Union Jackers have aged really, really poorly.
Good morning!0 -
When are we going to start acting in ours?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. B, no, they did not.
If a loan shark gives a debtor a few more days to pay, it's because they want their money, not because they're kind and caring.
The UK would suffer significant turbulence if we left without any sort of transition/deal whatsoever. So would the EU. The EU acted simply in its own interest.0 -
Truth is, there is no available Brexit that delivers on Leave demands. If there were, we would be onto it by now. We won't "take control", save money, or get the EU out of our lives. We have been able to reduce immigration by making the UK a lot less desirable to migrants with marketable skills. Not really "control" and we didn't have to leave the EU to do it.CarlottaVance said:
Like our MPs SO knows what he's against (May's red lines) but its less clear what he is for, that would both respect the referendum result and try to balance the conflicting desires of Leave & Remain voters.JosiasJessop said:
I'm far from convinced that's the case: there was a vote to leave, and she believed that that vote needed to be respected.SouthamObserver said:
May’s red lines created the mess. She drew them because she prioritised positive headlines in the right wing press over the national interest. The red lines created the backstop. Would Gove have been as needy, as insecure and as stupid as May? Possibly not. But he has supported her all the way.JosiasJessop said:
It's ridiculous to say anyone could have done better: Brexit is a mess, and would have been a mess whoever was in charge of negotiations. The sides are too far apart for any meaningful compromise to be easily reached.DougSeal said:
Gove was co-convener of the Vofe Leave campaign committee. Vote Leave’s campaign literature appeared to rule out a leaving without a deal. Accordingly any advice Gove gave, unless he was not fully behind his own campaign’s view on this, would presumably rule out the hard man no-dealer approach you have been advocating. I fail to see how any path Gove, who pointedly remains in cabinet, would significantly differ from the one taken.Philip_Thompson said:Such a shame May folded the cards and stubbornly refused to choose a path.
Had a path been chosen like Gove advised this would have all been much smoother.
Give would have faced just as many problems as May; they might have been different problems, but problems nonetheless.
And the reason the sides are so far apart? The leave campaigns who lied about Brexit, and promised everything to everyone.
It'd be good for leavers to take some responsibility instead of pathetically moaning: "If my person was in charge it would have been different!"
I think the EU deal does that - control of our laws & immigration (Leave voters top 2 motivations), while minimising the impact the consequences of that have on the economy (Remain voters #1 motivation).
The Leave campaign lied and voters bought the snake oil. They are going through a slow and painful discovery about what they voted for.0 -
You’re confident they will?AlastairMeeks said:The EU have done what they can. It is now time for Parliament finally to make decisions.
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We do not often agree but you are right on this though TM's deal does provide the WDA that is fundamental to leaving and Norway or anything else follows on negotiationJonathan said:
Norway is leaving the EU, the referendum question asked nothing else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?0 -
Just because someone agrees with your position does not make them moderate. In this situation Dominic Grieve is not the moderate.IanB2 said:
The leadership will mostly come from the moderate Labour side (Cooper and Benn) with the thinking mostly from the moderate Conservative side (Letwin and Grieve)Nigelb said:
They need a leader, though.IanB2 said:
Yes, MPs now need to rise to the challenge. They moaned at May's depiction of them Wednesday; well, they now have a few weeks to prove her wrong.CarlottaVance said:
That's a nice gloss:IanB2 said:Guardian:But it was a lack of confidence in the prime minister following her latest performance in front of the leaders that forced the EU’s member states to act to shore up against a no-deal Brexit and allow the British parliament time to take control.
'time to take control'
aka
'make their fecking minds up on how they circumvent the referendum result'.
It being quite clear that neither May nor Corbyn even begin to meet that description.0 -
https://twitter.com/timoconnorbl/status/1108989116249722880FF43 said:The Leave campaign lied and voters bought the snake oil. They are going through a slow and painful discovery about what they voted for.
https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/11089929813638021120 -
Germany ++ (aka the current deal) is preferable from an economic point of view, but to maintain that would require a second vote.Foxy said:
FOM was supported by 48%, plus a small percentage of the 52%, so yes it does respect the result of the referendum.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?
Norway+ is the least stupid option, but rather does ask the question "why should we not have a say in writing the rules?" All roads lead back to the Treaty of Rome, because our current deal is the best deal.
Norway + has two key features, it avoids the political project and does the least harm compatible with 2016.0 -
Was the council seat in Thurrock an independent group seat that was previously UKIP?IanB2 said:
And amid the noise the Tories took a council seat off Labour in Thurrock last night. Which is remarkable against the national backdrop.ydoethur said:
But Labour can't. If Corbyn goes, somebody very much worse - Long-Bailey, Macdonnell, Pidcock, Burgon - is likely to replace him.DavidL said:
You're right, being only 4% ahead of the shambolic incompetent shambles that is the Corbyn led Labour party shows their support is weak. If Labour got a competent or credible leader they would be in terrible trouble.Roger said:For those off to work who don't have time to listen and want a quick precis; Mrs May and the Tory Party are completely screwed......
It's all in the polls...
That's why, extraordinarily, the Tories are still value for the next election. Their next leader is (a) likely to get a honeymoon by not being May, (b) most unlikely to be completely crazy (c) will probably get a loud sigh of of relief from most of the PCP, unlike Labour where Corbyn continues to have the support of only about 25% of MPs and (d) will almost certainly call an immediate election. That's even leaving aside Labour's ongoing narrow support base which makes their vote very inefficient.
Whether that is a good thing for anybody is another question. Expect a wipeout in 2024 if this plays out and Labour finally come to their senses. But it still seems more plausible (sorry) than the alternatives.0 -
It didn't mention a 'deal' either.....Jonathan said:
Norway is leaving the EU, the referendum question asked nothing else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?0 -
We agree on most things, we strongly disagree on the role May has played.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We do not often agree but you are right on this though TM's deal does provide the WDA that is fundamental to leaving and Norway or anything else follows on negotiationJonathan said:
Norway is leaving the EU, the referendum question asked nothing else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?0 -
Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?
Up to a point, Lord Copper.
But I don't recall 'We can LEAVE and keep FoM' featuring prominently, or indeed at all, in the Leave campaign.0 -
Re Garuda and all the ill informed speculation here. It’s a convenient excuse for massive overcapacity, drastically poor management, liquidity constraints and the inability to make a profit even when airline economics should be so strong. The return of the PDPs might allow them to cure defaults. Convienetly politically helpful for the Indonesian government0
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In the pub last night, Brexit came up and even I was surprised by the vitriol against MPs. It came from Remainers and Labour supporters too. Mrs May has hurt the little darlings' feelings but she should have stuck to her guns. May took plenty of criticism too, but the bulk was reserved for MPs.
No one defended them. I assume they must have a fan club somewhere in the South of England or possibly Scotland.
"'If the Empire lasts a thousand years men will say, 'this was not their finest hour'."0 -
One by the radiator, knowing my luck.....Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Mark, I'll let you know when Lucifer e-mails me back to confirm the place in Hell I've just reserved for you.
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No they gained it from Thurrock Independents (TPFKAUKIP).IanB2 said:
And amid the noise the Tories took a council seat off Labour in Thurrock last night. Which is remarkable against the national backdrop.ydoethur said:
But Labour can't. If Corbyn goes, somebody very much worse - Long-Bailey, Macdonnell, Pidcock, Burgon - is likely to replace him.DavidL said:
You're right, being only 4% ahead of the shambolic incompetent shambles that is the Corbyn led Labour party shows their support is weak. If Labour got a competent or credible leader they would be in terrible trouble.Roger said:For those off to work who don't have time to listen and want a quick precis; Mrs May and the Tory Party are completely screwed......
It's all in the polls...
That's why, extraordinarily, the Tories are still value for the next election. Their next leader is (a) likely to get a honeymoon by not being May, (b) most unlikely to be completely crazy (c) will probably get a loud sigh of of relief from most of the PCP, unlike Labour where Corbyn continues to have the support of only about 25% of MPs and (d) will almost certainly call an immediate election. That's even leaving aside Labour's ongoing narrow support base which makes their vote very inefficient.
Whether that is a good thing for anybody is another question. Expect a wipeout in 2024 if this plays out and Labour finally come to their senses. But it still seems more plausible (sorry) than the alternatives.
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Can you explain how a hard leftwinger gets on the ballot?ydoethur said:
But Labour can't. If Corbyn goes, somebody very much worse - Long-Bailey, Macdonnell, Pidcock, Burgon - is likely to replace him.DavidL said:
You're right, being only 4% ahead of the shambolic incompetent shambles that is the Corbyn led Labour party shows their support is weak. If Labour got a competent or credible leader they would be in terrible trouble.Roger said:For those off to work who don't have time to listen and want a quick precis; Mrs May and the Tory Party are completely screwed......
It's all in the polls...
That's why, extraordinarily, the Tories are still value for the next election. Their next leader is (a) likely to get a honeymoon by not being May, (b) most unlikely to be completely crazy (c) will probably get a loud sigh of of relief from most of the PCP, unlike Labour where Corbyn continues to have the support of only about 25% of MPs and (d) will almost certainly call an immediate election. That's even leaving aside Labour's ongoing narrow support base which makes their vote very inefficient.
Whether that is a good thing for anybody is another question. Expect a wipeout in 2024 if this plays out and Labour finally come to their senses. But it still seems more plausible (sorry) than the alternatives.0 -
It is not what I wanted but there is a majority for Norway. Neither party leaders wants it Corbyn as it robs him of a chaotic change of government and May as it turns her into a party splitting figure like Peel.
So for the first time MPs will have to have the stones to break cover. Will they? Looks more possible now perhaps.0 -
Mr Jonathan,
When I leave a club, I expect to stop paying the subs. Don't you?0 -
Lots of mendacious bullshit and xenophobic guff was uttered in the campaign. Who cares? There was nothing about FOM on the ballot.CarlottaVance said:Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?
Up to a point, Lord Copper.
But I don't recall 'We can LEAVE and keep FoM' featuring prominently, or indeed at all, in the Leave campaign.
Richard is right, and has been consistently right on this point from the outset.0 -
Good morning PB,
We do DO NOT leave the EU in 7 days time deal or no deal (despite Theresa May saying over 100 times that we would leave on 29th March 2019)
Please leave the departure lounge and return home.
Have a lovely day all0 -
Yup. Just gone back to 2002. Labour don’t appear to have ever won the ward, but have been in front of the tories a number of times. Had a very strong UKIP presence from about 2010, and seemed to have stayed UKIP (and their new independent group who all resigned from UKIP) since then. First time tories have won the seat since about 2011. A very good result for the conservatives. It could have gone either way.No_Offence_Alan said:
No they gained it from Thurrock Independents (TPFKAUKIP).IanB2 said:
And amid the noise the Tories took a council seat off Labour in Thurrock last night. Which is remarkable against the national backdrop.ydoethur said:
But Labour can't. If Corbyn goes, somebody very much worse - Long-Bailey, Macdonnell, Pidcock, Burgon - is likely to replace him.DavidL said:
You're right, being only 4% ahead of the shambolic incompetent shambles that is the Corbyn led Labour party shows their support is weak. If Labour got a competent or credible leader they would be in terrible trouble.Roger said:For those off to work who don't have time to listen and want a quick precis; Mrs May and the Tory Party are completely screwed......
It's all in the polls...
That's why, extraordinarily, the Tories are still value for the next election. Their next leader is (a) likely to get a honeymoon by not being May, (b) most unlikely to be completely crazy (c) will probably get a loud sigh of of relief from most of the PCP, unlike Labour where Corbyn continues to have the support of only about 25% of MPs and (d) will almost certainly call an immediate election. That's even leaving aside Labour's ongoing narrow support base which makes their vote very inefficient.
Whether that is a good thing for anybody is another question. Expect a wipeout in 2024 if this plays out and Labour finally come to their senses. But it still seems more plausible (sorry) than the alternatives.0 -
MayDay — and lots of Brexity PBers like Mortimer.GIN1138 said:Good morning PB,
We do DO NOT leave the EU in 7 days time deal or no deal (despite Theresa May saying over 100 times that we would leave on 29th March 2019)
Please leave the departure lounge and return home.
Have a lovely day all
Over and over again.
Funny old world!0 -
Last nights agreement by the EU has an important aspect that does need to be understood.
The 12th April cut off date if TM deal falls is little more than 14 days away and in order for any extension to be agreed beyond we have to take part in the EU elections
In order to do so HMG has to lay enabling legislation for us to take part and that has to pass into law by the 12th April.
I would suggest that in everyone's deliberations going forward this needs to be taken into consideration, particularly as ERG and others will fight the concept tooth and claw that we should be in the new EU Parliament
Therefore, without this passing an extension for a GE or a referendum extinguishes on the 12th April and that is the reality of these options. The EU lawyers have made it clear that if we were still in the EU after the 12th April and without representation, then all laws made by the new EU Parliament would be struck down by the ECJ as void. Now isn't that ironic
TM issues all but an apology last night to the HOC over her statement from no 10 which she said was due to her frustrations, but the HOC needs to grow up and put that behind them.
Tomorrows march for a referendum is now pointless as it is not possible and, no doubt, many in that movement, who consider they are academically superior to leavers, have swung behind revoke as per the 2 million plus signatures on the e petition, but I believe that is by far the most unlikely end state
To sum up and IMHO the choices are now - deal - no deal - amended deal i.e. Norway +0 -
So what? At 52:48 she needed to find a.....CarlottaVance said:
She drew them because she identified what had motivated LEAVE voters to the horror of their bien pensant betters.SouthamObserver said:
She drew them because she prioritised positive headlines in the right wing press over the national interest.JosiasJessop said:
It's ridiculous to say anyone could have done better: Brexit is a mess, and would have been a mess whoever was in charge of negotiations. The sides are too far apart for any meaningful compromise to be easily reached.DougSeal said:
Gove was co-convener of the Vofe Leave campaign committee. Vote Leave’s campaign literature appeared to rule out a leaving without a deal. Accordingly any advice Gove gave, unless he was not fully behind his own campaign’s view on this, would presumably rule out the hard man no-dealer approach you have been advocating. I fail to see how any path Gove, who pointedly remains in cabinet, would significantly differ from the one taken.Philip_Thompson said:Such a shame May folded the cards and stubbornly refused to choose a path.
Had a path been chosen like Gove advised this would have all been much smoother.
Give would have faced just as many problems as May; they might have been different problems, but problems nonetheless.
And the reason the sides are so far apart? The leave campaigns who lied about Brexit, and promised everything to everyone.
It'd be good for leavers to take some responsibility instead of pathetically moaning: "If my person was in charge it would have been different!"
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/03/lord-ashcroft-how-the-united-kingdom-voted-on-eu-referendum-day-and-why.html
...
Compromise!!
Unless you think that all 17.4m were racists.0 -
Of course not. They've flunked every opportunity so far. But hope springs eternal.matt said:
You’re confident they will?AlastairMeeks said:The EU have done what they can. It is now time for Parliament finally to make decisions.
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It is good to agree Jonathan and I do not see TM as faultless in all of thisJonathan said:
We agree on most things, we strongly disagree on the role May has played.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We do not often agree but you are right on this though TM's deal does provide the WDA that is fundamental to leaving and Norway or anything else follows on negotiationJonathan said:
Norway is leaving the EU, the referendum question asked nothing else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?0 -
Mr Jonathan,
I suspect we'll not agree, but it seems to be an odd definition. We voted to leave. As it happens, there are one or two services, I'd like to keep, but that's only my opinion. You can't define 'leave' as you like if you mean staying on the same terms by another name and paying the same amount. I wish you well in pursuing that argument.0 -
Ah I see everyone with a pulse on here has made the same transparently obvious point.TOPPING said:
So what? At 52:48 she needed to find a.....CarlottaVance said:
She drew them because she identified what had motivated LEAVE voters to the horror of their bien pensant betters.SouthamObserver said:
She drew them because she prioritised positive headlines in the right wing press over the national interest.JosiasJessop said:
It's ridiculous to say anyone could have done better: Brexit is a mess, and would have been a mess whoever was in charge of negotiations. The sides are too far apart for any meaningful compromise to be easily reached.DougSeal said:
Gove was co-convener of the Vofe Leave campaign committee. Vote Leave’s campaign literature appeared to rule out a leaving without a deal. Accordingly any advice Gove gave, unless he was not fully behind his own campaign’s view on this, would presumably rule out the hard man no-dealer approach you have been advocating. I fail to see how any path Gove, who pointedly remains in cabinet, would significantly differ from the one taken.Philip_Thompson said:Such a shame May folded the cards and stubbornly refused to choose a path.
Had a path been chosen like Gove advised this would have all been much smoother.
Give would have faced just as many problems as May; they might have been different problems, but problems nonetheless.
And the reason the sides are so far apart? The leave campaigns who lied about Brexit, and promised everything to everyone.
It'd be good for leavers to take some responsibility instead of pathetically moaning: "If my person was in charge it would have been different!"
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/03/lord-ashcroft-how-the-united-kingdom-voted-on-eu-referendum-day-and-why.html
...
Compromise!!
Unless you think that all 17.4m were racists.0 -
Or revoke.Big_G_NorthWales said:Last nights agreement by the EU has an important aspect that does need to be understood.
The 12th April cut off date if TM deal falls is little more than 14 days away and in order for any extension to be agreed beyond we have to take part in the EU elections
In order to do so HMG has to lay enabling legislation for us to take part and that has to pass into law by the 12th April.
I would suggest that in everyone's deliberations going forward this needs to be taken into consideration, particularly as ERG and others will fight the concept tooth and claw that we should be in the new EU Parliament
Therefore, without this passing an extension for a GE or a referendum extinguishes on the 12th April and that is the reality of these options. The EU lawyers have made it clear that if we were still in the EU after the 12th April and without representation, then all laws made by the new EU Parliament would be struck down by the ECJ as void. Now isn't that ironic
TM issues all but an apology last night to the HOC over her statement from no 10 which she said was due to her frustrations, but the HOC needs to grow up and put that behind them.
Tomorrows march for a referendum is now pointless as it is not possible and, no doubt, many in that movement, who consider they are academically superior to leavers, have swung behind revoke as per the 2 million plus signatures on the e petition, but I believe that is by far the most unlikely end state
To sum up and IMHO the choices are now - deal - no deal - amended deal i.e. Norway +0 -
Carlotta is as tin-eared as her bestie/alter ego Theresa May.TOPPING said:
So what? At 52:48 she needed to find a.....CarlottaVance said:
She drew them because she identified what had motivated LEAVE voters to the horror of their bien pensant betters.SouthamObserver said:
She drew them because she prioritised positive headlines in the right wing press over the national interest.JosiasJessop said:
It's ridiculous to say anyone could have done better: Brexit is a mess, and would have been a mess whoever was in charge of negotiations. The sides are too far apart for any meaningful compromise to be easily reached.DougSeal said:
Gove was co-convener of the Vofe Leave campaign committee. Vote Leave’s campaign literature appeared to rule out a leaving without a deal. Accordingly any advice Gove gave, unless he was not fully behind his own campaign’s view on this, would presumably rule out the hard man no-dealer approach you have been advocating. I fail to see how any path Gove, who pointedly remains in cabinet, would significantly differ from the one taken.Philip_Thompson said:Such a shame May folded the cards and stubbornly refused to choose a path.
Had a path been chosen like Gove advised this would have all been much smoother.
Give would have faced just as many problems as May; they might have been different problems, but problems nonetheless.
And the reason the sides are so far apart? The leave campaigns who lied about Brexit, and promised everything to everyone.
It'd be good for leavers to take some responsibility instead of pathetically moaning: "If my person was in charge it would have been different!"
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/03/lord-ashcroft-how-the-united-kingdom-voted-on-eu-referendum-day-and-why.html
...
Compromise!!
Unless you think that all 17.4m were racists.
But yes, you are spot on.0 -
Absolutely right. The obligation from the referendum was to no longer be a member of the European Member. The EU and the UK have a very clear definition of a member, we could have a relationship as deep as an ocean in which we were all but members like Switzerland , or we could have no more association with the EU than say we have with South Korea. Both fulfil the referendum._Anazina_ said:
Lots of mendacious bullshit and xenophobic guff was uttered in the campaign. Who cares? There was nothing about FOM on the ballot.CarlottaVance said:Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?
Up to a point, Lord Copper.
But I don't recall 'We can LEAVE and keep FoM' featuring prominently, or indeed at all, in the Leave campaign.
Richard is right, and has been consistently right on this point from the outset.
What is pernicious is the way that the current WA which sets the tone for a very shallow future relationship (which is still open enough to be negotiated in any direction at the next stage) is presented as BINO. Which it most certainly is not.0 -
CD13 said:
In the pub last night, Brexit came up and even I was surprised by the vitriol against MPs. It came from Remainers and Labour supporters too. Mrs May has hurt the little darlings' feelings but she should have stuck to her guns. May took plenty of criticism too, but the bulk was reserved for MPs.
No one defended them. I assume they must have a fan club somewhere in the South of England or possibly Scotland.
"'If the Empire lasts a thousand years men will say, 'this was not their finest hour'."
Yebbut so what? She can't appeal to the voters over the heads of the MPs unless she gives the people a vote.
Now there's a thought.0 -
It says so much about the site that no one has actually commented on WHO won that by-election as opposed to which party. I expect that might have had a bit to do with the result.notme2 said:
Yup. Just gone back to 2002. Labour don’t appear to have ever won the ward, but have been in front of the tories a number of times. Had a very strong UKIP presence from about 2010, and seemed to have stayed UKIP (and their new independent group who all resigned from UKIP) since then. First time tories have won the seat since about 2011. A very good result for the conservatives. It could have gone either way.No_Offence_Alan said:
No they gained it from Thurrock Independents (TPFKAUKIP).IanB2 said:
And amid the noise the Tories took a council seat off Labour in Thurrock last night. Which is remarkable against the national backdrop.ydoethur said:
But Labour can't. If Corbyn goes, somebody very much worse - Long-Bailey, Macdonnell, Pidcock, Burgon - is likely to replace him.DavidL said:
You're right, being only 4% ahead of the shambolic incompetent shambles that is the Corbyn led Labour party shows their support is weak. If Labour got a competent or credible leader they would be in terrible trouble.Roger said:For those off to work who don't have time to listen and want a quick precis; Mrs May and the Tory Party are completely screwed......
It's all in the polls...
That's why, extraordinarily, the Tories are still value for the next election. Their next leader is (a) likely to get a honeymoon by not being May, (b) most unlikely to be completely crazy (c) will probably get a loud sigh of of relief from most of the PCP, unlike Labour where Corbyn continues to have the support of only about 25% of MPs and (d) will almost certainly call an immediate election. That's even leaving aside Labour's ongoing narrow support base which makes their vote very inefficient.
Whether that is a good thing for anybody is another question. Expect a wipeout in 2024 if this plays out and Labour finally come to their senses. But it still seems more plausible (sorry) than the alternatives.
Full disclosure, this has just been pointed out to me by isam by email. I wouldn't have spotted it either.0 -
Mr Recidivist,
At least you're not claiming that revoking is honouring the referendum result. I know language can change over time, but not that much, surely?0 -
mr-claypole said:
It is not what I wanted but there is a majority for Norway. Neither party leaders wants it Corbyn as it robs him of a chaotic change of government and May as it turns her into a party splitting figure like Peel.
So for the first time MPs will have to have the stones to break cover. Will they? Looks more possible now perhaps.
They should indeed break cover.
Let parliament TAKE BACK CONTROL.
Sir Olly Letwin as PM in a gnu?0 -
I did cover that in my penultimate paragraph but yes it is possible but very unlikelyRecidivist said:
Or revoke.Big_G_NorthWales said:Last nights agreement by the EU has an important aspect that does need to be understood.
The 12th April cut off date if TM deal falls is little more than 14 days away and in order for any extension to be agreed beyond we have to take part in the EU elections
In order to do so HMG has to lay enabling legislation for us to take part and that has to pass into law by the 12th April.
I would suggest that in everyone's deliberations going forward this needs to be taken into consideration, particularly as ERG and others will fight the concept tooth and claw that we should be in the new EU Parliament
Therefore, without this passing an extension for a GE or a referendum extinguishes on the 12th April and that is the reality of these options. The EU lawyers have made it clear that if we were still in the EU after the 12th April and without representation, then all laws made by the new EU Parliament would be struck down by the ECJ as void. Now isn't that ironic
TM issues all but an apology last night to the HOC over her statement from no 10 which she said was due to her frustrations, but the HOC needs to grow up and put that behind them.
Tomorrows march for a referendum is now pointless as it is not possible and, no doubt, many in that movement, who consider they are academically superior to leavers, have swung behind revoke as per the 2 million plus signatures on the e petition, but I believe that is by far the most unlikely end state
To sum up and IMHO the choices are now - deal - no deal - amended deal i.e. Norway +0 -
CD13: happy to define leave how they like to keep the bits of EU they likeCD13 said:Mr Jonathan,
I suspect we'll not agree, but it seems to be an odd definition. We voted to leave. As it happens, there are one or two services, I'd like to keep, but that's only my opinion. You can't define 'leave' as you like if you mean staying on the same terms by another name and paying the same amount. I wish you well in pursuing that argument.
Also CD13: you can't define leave how you like to keep the bits of the EU you like0 -
Or just stop using the referendum as a grant of a wish from the genie of the lamp, and actually put a programme together that can get through a general election. Revoke now and come back later and get a mandate for what you want.CD13 said:Mr Jonathan,
I suspect we'll not agree, but it seems to be an odd definition. We voted to leave. As it happens, there are one or two services, I'd like to keep, but that's only my opinion. You can't define 'leave' as you like if you mean staying on the same terms by another name and paying the same amount. I wish you well in pursuing that argument.0 -
Laura K making my point on R4 that MV3 may now be superfluous0
-
Ah, a celebrity___ that can make a difference, though it never helped poor Eddie Izzard.AlastairMeeks said:
It says so much about the site that no one has actually commented on WHO won that by-election as opposed to which party. I expect that might have had a bit to do with the result.notme2 said:
Yup. Just gone back to 2002. Labour don’t appear to have ever won the ward, but have been in front of the tories a number of times. Had a very strong UKIP presence from about 2010, and seemed to have stayed UKIP (and their new independent group who all resigned from UKIP) since then. First time tories have won the seat since about 2011. A very good result for the conservatives. It could have gone either way.No_Offence_Alan said:
No they gained it from Thurrock Independents (TPFKAUKIP).IanB2 said:
And amid the noise the Tories took a council seat off Labour in Thurrock last night. Which is remarkable against the national backdrop.ydoethur said:
But Labour can't. If Corbyn goes, somebody very much worse - Long-Bailey, Macdonnell, Pidcock, Burgon - is likely to replace him.DavidL said:
You're right, being only 4% ahead of the shambolic incompetent shambles that is the Corbyn led Labour party shows their support is weak. If Labour got a competent or credible leader they would be in terrible trouble.Roger said:For those off to work who don't have time to listen and want a quick precis; Mrs May and the Tory Party are completely screwed......
It's all in the polls...
That's why, extraordinarily, the Tories are still value for the next election. Their next leader is (a) likely to get a honeymoon by not being May, (b) most unlikely to be completely crazy (c) will probably get a loud sigh of of relief from most of the PCP, unlike Labour where Corbyn continues to have the support of only about 25% of MPs and (d) will almost certainly call an immediate election. That's even leaving aside Labour's ongoing narrow support base which makes their vote very inefficient.
Whether that is a good thing for anybody is another question. Expect a wipeout in 2024 if this plays out and Labour finally come to their senses. But it still seems more plausible (sorry) than the alternatives.
Full disclosure, this has just been pointed out to me by isam by email. I wouldn't have spotted it either.0 -
The circumstances have changed which he can choose to say makes it permissible, its allowed. It's not going to pass he has nothing to worry about, but may also has no choice since the one helpful thing theThomasNashe said:
Yes, everyone's assuming it's going to come back for another vote, but I don't see how Bercow allows it. There have been no substantive changes to the motion.IanB2 said:I wonder whether we'll see MV3 now. Even May can see she'll be defeated again, and will be forced to climb down, and another big defeat does her no favours. She will be forced to eat humble pie and would be better going straight for some sort of indicative vote process directly; Lidlington's previous commitment gives her cover to claim that was what she always intended to do.
EU did was essentially say she cannot delay her vote the whole 2 weeks.0 -
Well well. Clearly Tory policy is to join not the Euro, but Dollar.AlastairMeeks said:
It says so much about the site that no one has actually commented on WHO won that by-election as opposed to which party. I expect that might have had a bit to do with the result.notme2 said:
Yup. Just gone back to 2002. Labour don’t appear to have ever won the ward, but have been in front of the tories a number of times. Had a very strong UKIP presence from about 2010, and seemed to have stayed UKIP (and their new independent group who all resigned from UKIP) since then. First time tories have won the seat since about 2011. A very good result for the conservatives. It could have gone either way.No_Offence_Alan said:
No they gained it from Thurrock Independents (TPFKAUKIP).IanB2 said:
And amid the noise the Tories took a council seat off Labour in Thurrock last night. Which is remarkable against the national backdrop.ydoethur said:
But Labour can't. If Corbyn goes, somebody very much worse - Long-Bailey, Macdonnell, Pidcock, Burgon - is likely to replace him.DavidL said:
You're right, being only 4% ahead of the shambolic incompetent shambles that is the Corbyn led Labour party shows their support is weak. If Labour got a competent or credible leader they would be in terrible trouble.Roger said:For those off to work who don't have time to listen and want a quick precis; Mrs May and the Tory Party are completely screwed......
It's all in the polls...
That's why, extraordinarily, the Tories are still value for the next election. Their next leader is (a) likely to get a honeymoon by not being May, (b) most unlikely to be completely crazy (c) will probably get a loud sigh of of relief from most of the PCP, unlike Labour where Corbyn continues to have the support of only about 25% of MPs and (d) will almost certainly call an immediate election. That's even leaving aside Labour's ongoing narrow support base which makes their vote very inefficient.
Whether that is a good thing for anybody is another question. Expect a wipeout in 2024 if this plays out and Labour finally come to their senses. But it still seems more plausible (sorry) than the alternatives.
Full disclosure, this has just been pointed out to me by isam by email. I wouldn't have spotted it either.0 -
I'm in favour of FoM and wish we weren't leaving - but worry what doing/keeping either will do to our democracy._Anazina_ said:
Lots of mendacious bullshit and xenophobic guff was uttered in the campaign. Who cares? There was nothing about FOM on the ballot.CarlottaVance said:Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?
Up to a point, Lord Copper.
But I don't recall 'We can LEAVE and keep FoM' featuring prominently, or indeed at all, in the Leave campaign.
Richard is right, and has been consistently right on this point from the outset.
But by all means - ignore what voters want and see where that gets you.0 -
EU immigration to the UK has fallen since the referendum anyway so Norway Plus is an option nowAlastairMeeks said:
Norway does everything except deliver on the mandate obtained, which was an anti-immigration platform.Nigelb said:
Norway is a meaningful compromise, which could have been, and might just still be reached.JosiasJessop said:
It's ridiculous to say anyone could have done better: Brexit is a mess, and would have been a mess whoever was in charge of negotiations. The sides are too far apart for any meaningful compromise to be easily reached.DougSeal said:
Gove was co-convener of the Vofe Leave campaign committee. Vote Leave’s campaign literature appeared to rule out a leaving without a deal. Accordingly any advice Gove gave, unless he was not fully behind his own campaign’s view on this, would presumably rule out the hard man no-dealer approach you have been advocating. I fail to see how any path Gove, who pointedly remains in cabinet, would significantly differ from the one taken.Philip_Thompson said:Such a shame May folded the cards and stubbornly refused to choose a path.
Had a path been chosen like Gove advised this would have all been much smoother.
Give would have faced just as many problems as May; they might have been different problems, but problems nonetheless.
And the reason the sides are so far apart? The leave campaigns who lied about Brexit, and promised everything to everyone.
It'd be good for leavers to take some responsibility instead of pathetically moaning: "If my person was in charge it would have been different!"
It would mean pissing off most people, but to a lesser extent overall than any other likely solution.0 -
There are plenty of compromises in the Deal - which is why the absolutists of the ERG have trashed, what is in fact, a pretty good deal. But if you think voters will think retaining FoM respects the result of the referendum you're a bigger optimist than I am.TOPPING said:
So what? At 52:48 she needed to find a.....CarlottaVance said:
She drew them because she identified what had motivated LEAVE voters to the horror of their bien pensant betters.SouthamObserver said:
She drew them because she prioritised positive headlines in the right wing press over the national interest.JosiasJessop said:
It's ridiculous to say anyone could have done better: Brexit is a mess, and would have been a mess whoever was in charge of negotiations. The sides are too far apart for any meaningful compromise to be easily reached.DougSeal said:
Gove was co-convener of the Vofe Leave campaign committee. Vote Leave’s campaign literature appeared to rule out a leaving without a deal. Accordingly any advice Gove gave, unless he was not fully behind his own campaign’s view on this, would presumably rule out the hard man no-dealer approach you have been advocating. I fail to see how any path Gove, who pointedly remains in cabinet, would significantly differ from the one taken.Philip_Thompson said:Such a shame May folded the cards and stubbornly refused to choose a path.
Had a path been chosen like Gove advised this would have all been much smoother.
Give would have faced just as many problems as May; they might have been different problems, but problems nonetheless.
And the reason the sides are so far apart? The leave campaigns who lied about Brexit, and promised everything to everyone.
It'd be good for leavers to take some responsibility instead of pathetically moaning: "If my person was in charge it would have been different!"
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/03/lord-ashcroft-how-the-united-kingdom-voted-on-eu-referendum-day-and-why.html
...
Compromise!!
Unless you think that all 17.4m were racists.
0 -
I'm wondering whether the extension offered by the 27 is what Jezza requested when he rocked up yesterday?
They certainly took no notice of Tezzie's supplication.0 -
If Labour pushes Norway, it risks pissing off those Remainers who don't want to Leave at all, and those of its Leavers who hadn't realised Labour was pushing to allow Romanian beggars to continue to travel to the UK....CarlottaVance said:
I'm in favour of FoM and wish we weren't leaving - but worry what doing/keeping either will do to our democracy._Anazina_ said:
Lots of mendacious bullshit and xenophobic guff was uttered in the campaign. Who cares? There was nothing about FOM on the ballot.CarlottaVance said:Richard_Tyndall said:
As fellow posters on both sides if the debate very correctly point out, the vote was to Remain or Leave the EU. Norway respects that result absolutely which is why I and others campaigned on that basis for Leave.CarlottaVance said:
And you think continued FoM respects the result of the referendum?Nigelb said:
I’ve already told you. Norway.
Or just the bits of the result you like?
Up to a point, Lord Copper.
But I don't recall 'We can LEAVE and keep FoM' featuring prominently, or indeed at all, in the Leave campaign.
Richard is right, and has been consistently right on this point from the outset.
But by all means - ignore what voters want and see where that gets you.
There's going to be a reckoning at some point.0 -
1.02 on Betfair not to leave on the 29th.GIN1138 said:Good morning PB,
We do DO NOT leave the EU in 7 days time deal or no deal (despite Theresa May saying over 100 times that we would leave on 29th March 2019)
Please leave the departure lounge and return home.
Have a lovely day all0 -
I'm trying to be objective, even if I'm probably failing. Very few people would define leaving a club as staying in, using the facilities and paying the same amount.
Now, trying to be open-minded. if there is an appetite to retain some select bits (despite the EU shout of "No cherry-picking), that could be asked in a second referendum where the question is "Should we leave with no extras and no extra costs or should we ask for this and offer to pay the going rate?"
As you see I'm no politician, and I'm ignoring party politics. That's why it sounds so strange. However, our MPs ...0 -
By which you mean leave voters.CarlottaVance said:
There are plenty of compromises in the Deal - which is why the absolutists of the ERG have trashed, what is in fact, a pretty good deal. But if you think voters will think retaining FoM respects the result of the referendum you're a bigger optimist than I am.TOPPING said:
So what? At 52:48 she needed to find a.....CarlottaVance said:
She drew them because she identified what had motivated LEAVE voters to the horror of their bien pensant betters.SouthamObserver said:
She drew them because she prioritised positive headlines in the right wing press over the national interest.JosiasJessop said:
It's ridiculous to say anyone could have done better: Brexit is a mess, and would have been a mess whoever was in charge of negotiations. The sides are too far apart for any meaningful compromise to be easily reached.DougSeal said:
Gove was co-convener of the Vofe Leave campaign committee. Vote Leave’s campaign literature appeared to rule out a leaving without a deal. Accordingly any advice Gove gave, unless he was not fully behind his own campaign’s view on this, would presumably rule out the hard man no-dealer approach you have been advocating. I fail to see how any path Gove, who pointedly remains in cabinet, would significantly differ from the one taken.Philip_Thompson said:Such a shame May folded the cards and stubbornly refused to choose a path.
Had a path been chosen like Gove advised this would have all been much smoother.
Give would have faced just as many problems as May; they might have been different problems, but problems nonetheless.
And the reason the sides are so far apart? The leave campaigns who lied about Brexit, and promised everything to everyone.
It'd be good for leavers to take some responsibility instead of pathetically moaning: "If my person was in charge it would have been different!"
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/03/lord-ashcroft-how-the-united-kingdom-voted-on-eu-referendum-day-and-why.html
...
Compromise!!
Unless you think that all 17.4m were racists.
Evidently some of the do believe exactly that - and retainers would be quite happy with it. So, probably a majority of the electorate.
And parse it how you will, all that the ballot called for was leaving the EU. Norway does that.
"Respects" has become the most grossly abused term in politics.0 -
Yes unfortunately. Given they will all believe they can get what they want in those 3 weeks that ensures MV3 is lost, so were back to hoping parliament can this time come up with something. At least the EU have demanded the deal be voted on next week so that it can be ruled out.Alanbrooke said:Ho hum another 3 weeks of these bozos faffing about
It could all be done in a day. Vote vote vote until a majority is reached. That's not rushed they've had months.0 -
All you are doing is illustrating the futility of argument by analogy when discussing legal agreements between states.CD13 said:I'm trying to be objective, even if I'm probably failing. Very few people would define leaving a club as staying in, using the facilities and paying the same amount.
Now, trying to be open-minded. if there is an appetite to retain some select bits (despite the EU shout of "No cherry-picking), that could be asked in a second referendum where the question is "Should we leave with no extras and no extra costs or should we ask for this and offer to pay the going rate?"
As you see I'm no politician, and I'm ignoring party politics. That's why it sounds so strange. However, our MPs ...0 -
Off topic
Scotland had a terrible result last night in the Euro qualifiers beaten 3 - 0 by Kazakhstan
Supporters were furious and according to 5 live demanded their ticket money back
The tickets were a £1 each0 -
If Letwin Benn passes on Monday that is precisely what will happenkle4 said:
Yes unfortunately. Given they will all believe they can get what they want in those 3 weeks that ensures MV3 is lost, so were back to hoping parliament can this time come up with something. At least the EU have demanded the deal be voted on next week so that it can be ruled out.Alanbrooke said:Ho hum another 3 weeks of these bozos faffing about
It could all be done in a day. Vote vote vote until a majority is reached. That's not rushed they've had months.0 -
It was commented on last night by a number of posters.AlastairMeeks said:
It says so much about the site that no one has actually commented on WHO won that by-election as opposed to which party. I expect that might have had a bit to do with the result.notme2 said:
Yup. Just gone back to 2002. Labour don’t appear to have ever won the ward, but have been in front of the tories a number of times. Had a very strong UKIP presence from about 2010, and seemed to have stayed UKIP (and their new independent group who all resigned from UKIP) since then. First time tories have won the seat since about 2011. A very good result for the conservatives. It could have gone either way.No_Offence_Alan said:
No they gained it from Thurrock Independents (TPFKAUKIP).IanB2 said:
And amid the noise the Tories took a council seat off Labour in Thurrock last night. Which is remarkable against the national backdrop.ydoethur said:
But Labour can't. If Corbyn goes, somebody very much worse - Long-Bailey, Macdonnell, Pidcock, Burgon - is likely to replace him.DavidL said:
You're right, being only 4% ahead of the shambolic incompetent shambles that is the Corbyn led Labour party shows their support is weak. If Labour got a competent or credible leader they would be in terrible trouble.Roger said:For those off to work who don't have time to listen and want a quick precis; Mrs May and the Tory Party are completely screwed......
It's all in the polls...
That's why, extraordinarily, the Tories are still value for the next election. Their next leader is (a) likely to get a honeymoon by not being May, (b) most unlikely to be completely crazy (c) will probably get a loud sigh of of relief from most of the PCP, unlike Labour where Corbyn continues to have the support of only about 25% of MPs and (d) will almost certainly call an immediate election. That's even leaving aside Labour's ongoing narrow support base which makes their vote very inefficient.
Whether that is a good thing for anybody is another question. Expect a wipeout in 2024 if this plays out and Labour finally come to their senses. But it still seems more plausible (sorry) than the alternatives.
Full disclosure, this has just been pointed out to me by isam by email. I wouldn't have spotted it either.
It says so much about the site ...
The main conclusion is that many posters are completely up to speed ... though there are some laggards.0 -
Live in Hope. Die in Sheffield.AlastairMeeks said:
Of course not. They've flunked every opportunity so far. But hope springs eternal.matt said:
You’re confident they will?AlastairMeeks said:The EU have done what they can. It is now time for Parliament finally to make decisions.
0 -
Rejecting it is not the same as taking no notice of it, as anyone who grumbles about being ignored in a consultation gets told.SandyRentool said:I'm wondering whether the extension offered by the 27 is what Jezza requested when he rocked up yesterday?
They certainly took no notice of Tezzie's supplication.
0 -
It will of course not be full Norway though as the EU will require the Customs Union for Northern Ireland so It will be Single Market and Customs Union BINO.mr-claypole said:It is not what I wanted but there is a majority for Norway. Neither party leaders wants it Corbyn as it robs him of a chaotic change of government and May as it turns her into a party splitting figure like Peel.
So for the first time MPs will have to have the stones to break cover. Will they? Looks more possible now perhaps.
Do not forget even after Corn Laws repeal in 1846 and the Peelites left to join the Whigs to form the Liberals the Tories won most seats in 2/3 of the next general elections on a protectionist platform though were only able to form a Government after one of those. It was not until Palmerston won a Liberal majority in 1874 that the Liberal dominance really started with the Tories not winning another majority or even most seats again until 18740 -
I hope so.HYUFD said:
If Letwin Benn passes on Monday that is precisely what will happenkle4 said:
Yes unfortunately. Given they will all believe they can get what they want in those 3 weeks that ensures MV3 is lost, so were back to hoping parliament can this time come up with something. At least the EU have demanded the deal be voted on next week so that it can be ruled out.Alanbrooke said:Ho hum another 3 weeks of these bozos faffing about
It could all be done in a day. Vote vote vote until a majority is reached. That's not rushed they've had months.0 -
Does anyone take him seriouslySandyRentool said:I'm wondering whether the extension offered by the 27 is what Jezza requested when he rocked up yesterday?
They certainly took no notice of Tezzie's supplication.0 -
Has anything been confirmed for mondayHYUFD said:
If Letwin Benn passes on Monday that is precisely what will happenkle4 said:
Yes unfortunately. Given they will all believe they can get what they want in those 3 weeks that ensures MV3 is lost, so were back to hoping parliament can this time come up with something. At least the EU have demanded the deal be voted on next week so that it can be ruled out.Alanbrooke said:Ho hum another 3 weeks of these bozos faffing about
It could all be done in a day. Vote vote vote until a majority is reached. That's not rushed they've had months.0 -
SNP are insisting the match is rerun...Big_G_NorthWales said:Off topic
Scotland had a terrible result last night in the Euro qualifiers beaten 3 - 0 by Kazakhstan
Supporters were furious and according to 5 live demanded their ticket money back
The tickets were a £1 each0 -
YesBig_G_NorthWales said:
Does anyone take him seriouslySandyRentool said:I'm wondering whether the extension offered by the 27 is what Jezza requested when he rocked up yesterday?
They certainly took no notice of Tezzie's supplication.0 -
Mr. NorthWales, that baffles me.
How is Kazakhstan in Europe?0 -
It straddles the Urals. (They haven't got a prescription for that yet.)Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, that baffles me.
How is Kazakhstan in Europe?
0 -
I have no idea to be honest. I didn't realise it is 4,000 miles awayMorris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, that baffles me.
How is Kazakhstan in Europe?0 -
They've certainly given up on taking her seriously.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Does anyone take him seriouslySandyRentool said:I'm wondering whether the extension offered by the 27 is what Jezza requested when he rocked up yesterday?
They certainly took no notice of Tezzie's supplication.0 -
HYUFD said:
It will of course not be full Norway though as the EU will require the Customs Union for Northern Ireland so It will be Single Market and Customs Union BINO.mr-claypole said:It is not what I wanted but there is a majority for Norway. Neither party leaders wants it Corbyn as it robs him of a chaotic change of government and May as it turns her into a party splitting figure like Peel.
So for the first time MPs will have to have the stones to break cover. Will they? Looks more possible now perhaps.
Do not forget even after Corn Laws repeal in 1846 and the Peelites left to join the Whigs to form the Liberals the Tories won most seats in 2/3 of the next general elections on a protectionist platform though were only able to form a Government after one of those. It was not until Palmerston won a Liberal majority in 1857 that the Liberal dominance really started with the Tories not winning another majority or even most seats again until 18740 -
Do you not thing that it has 'something' to do with the vote?HYUFD said:
EU immigration to the UK has fallen since the referendum anyway so Norway Plus is an option nowAlastairMeeks said:
Norway does everything except deliver on the mandate obtained, which was an anti-immigration platform.Nigelb said:
Norway is a meaningful compromise, which could have been, and might just still be reached.JosiasJessop said:
It's ridiculous to say anyone could have done better: Brexit is a mess, and would have been a mess whoever was in charge of negotiations. The sides are too far apart for any meaningful compromise to be easily reached.DougSeal said:
Gove was co-convener of the Vofe Leave campaign committee. Vote Leave’s campaign literature appeared to rule out a leaving without a deal. Accordingly any advice Gove gave, unless he was not fully behind his own campaign’s view on this, would presumably rule out the hard man no-dealer approach you have been advocating. I fail to see how any path Gove, who pointedly remains in cabinet, would significantly differ from the one taken.Philip_Thompson said:Such a shame May folded the cards and stubbornly refused to choose a path.
Had a path been chosen like Gove advised this would have all been much smoother.
Give would have faced just as many problems as May; they might have been different problems, but problems nonetheless.
And the reason the sides are so far apart? The leave campaigns who lied about Brexit, and promised everything to everyone.
It'd be good for leavers to take some responsibility instead of pathetically moaning: "If my person was in charge it would have been different!"
It would mean pissing off most people, but to a lesser extent overall than any other likely solution.
But Norway seems to be the 'best' option now. it is 'the' compromise, but then no one gets what they actually want, which iswhy it might not happen...
but then again, 'something' has to happen.0 -
Yes Letwin Benn will be submitted on Monday to propose indicative votes and Letwin says at least 5 MPs have switched to the amendmemt which should see it pass as it only lost by 2 votes last timeBig_G_NorthWales said:
Has anything been confirmed for mondayHYUFD said:
If Letwin Benn passes on Monday that is precisely what will happenkle4 said:
Yes unfortunately. Given they will all believe they can get what they want in those 3 weeks that ensures MV3 is lost, so were back to hoping parliament can this time come up with something. At least the EU have demanded the deal be voted on next week so that it can be ruled out.Alanbrooke said:Ho hum another 3 weeks of these bozos faffing about
It could all be done in a day. Vote vote vote until a majority is reached. That's not rushed they've had months.0 -
Morning all
The can gets another short kick down the road it seems. Both the EU and to an extent Theresa may have looked over the cliff edge and stepped back though not very far. The legalities with which so many here have been exercised apply to the EU when it comes to the electoral process and so 12 April is as far as we can go without a final definitive decision and it's the EU elections and the ramifications thereof which define the end of the road.
To use a well worn phrase, nothing has changed. The options to support the WA, leave without endorsing a WA and revoking are as valid now as they were yesterday. All that has happened is that March 29th has become April 12th.
The only way to remain now however is to revoke. Back the WA and we leave on 22/5. Don't support the WA and we go on 12/4 and that's essentially it. For those opposed to the WA the dynamics of leaving haven't changed - it's a two week delay but that's all.
It does seem enough will be changed to allow the WA one more chance to clear the Commons but MV3 is the last chance - there won't be an MV4.
Where are we politically? May has probably done enough to survive until the WA and is surely hoping worried Council candidates and frightened Mail-clutching constituents will help sway wavering hardliners into line. Maybe but she now has to bring the MV back even if she knows it will fall again and I do think it will be, to coin a baseball parlance, "three strikes and out" for Theresa May. I don't see how she can survive a third rejection of the WA.0 -
Of course and it was ironically by May ruling out Norway initially that it fell and thus now makes Norway an option 3 years laterSlackbladder said:
Do you not thing that it has 'something' to do with the vote?HYUFD said:
EU immigration to the UK has fallen since the referendum anyway so Norway Plus is an option nowAlastairMeeks said:
Norway does everything except deliver on the mandate obtained, which was an anti-immigration platform.Nigelb said:
Norway is a meaningful compromise, which could have been, and might just still be reached.JosiasJessop said:
It's ridiculous to say anyone could have done better: Brexit is a mess, and would have been a mess whoever was in charge of negotiations. The sides are too far apart for any meaningful compromise to be easily reached.DougSeal said:
Gove was co-convener of the Vofe Leave campaign committee. Vote Leave’s campaign literature appeared to rule out a leaving without a deal. Accordingly any advice Gove gave, unless he was not fully behind his own campaign’s view on this, would presumably rule out the hard man no-dealer approach you have been advocating. I fail to see how any path Gove, who pointedly remains in cabinet, would significantly differ from the one taken.Philip_Thompson said:Such a shame May folded the cards and stubbornly refused to choose a path.
Had a path been chosen like Gove advised this would have all been much smoother.
Give would have faced just as many problems as May; they might have been different problems, but problems nonetheless.
And the reason the sides are so far apart? The leave campaigns who lied about Brexit, and promised everything to everyone.
It'd be good for leavers to take some responsibility instead of pathetically moaning: "If my person was in charge it would have been different!"
It would mean pissing off most people, but to a lesser extent overall than any other likely solution.
But Norway seems to be the 'best' option now. it is 'the' compromise, but then no one gets what they actually want, which iswhy it might not happen...
but then again, 'something' has to happen.0 -
Sky have just said tuesday for MV3 but might changeHYUFD said:
Yes Letwin Benn will be submitted on Monday to propose indicative votes and Letwin says at least 5 MPs have switched to the amendmemt which should see it pass as it only lost by 2 votes last timeBig_G_NorthWales said:
Has anything been confirmed for mondayHYUFD said:
If Letwin Benn passes on Monday that is precisely what will happenkle4 said:
Yes unfortunately. Given they will all believe they can get what they want in those 3 weeks that ensures MV3 is lost, so were back to hoping parliament can this time come up with something. At least the EU have demanded the deal be voted on next week so that it can be ruled out.Alanbrooke said:Ho hum another 3 weeks of these bozos faffing about
It could all be done in a day. Vote vote vote until a majority is reached. That's not rushed they've had months.0 -
Geography. Part of its western province is west of the River Ural and hence in Europe.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, that baffles me.
How is Kazakhstan in Europe?0 -
Thanks for that.Dura_Ace said:
Geography. Part of its western province is west of the River Ural and hence in Europe.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, that baffles me.
How is Kazakhstan in Europe?0 -
What we need is two Asia confederations: West Asia and East Asia with the latter including the Oceania nations. And Kazakhstan should be in West Asia rather than UEFA.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, that baffles me.
How is Kazakhstan in Europe?0 -
Mr. Meeks/Mr. Ace, I must say I find that definition of 'Europe' to be tosh (I appreciate what you're both saying is the reasoning behind the inclusion but I think said reason is silly).
Europe was named after Europa. Greece was in, Asia Minor was out, and Kazakhstan must be about a thousand miles east of the west coast of Asia Minor/Turkey.0 -
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Such fun.Alanbrooke said:Ho hum another 3 weeks of these bozos faffing about
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