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Comments
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It's the EU's refusal to negotiate the future relationship which has led to the backstop.Alanbrooke said:
If May has failed so has the EU neither is getting a deal over the line.OldKingCole said:
Surely her first crucial error was to treat this Brexit solely as a party political matter and secondly to go for the 2017 election on the basis that she could then use the resulting Tory majority to steamroller objections.JosiasJessop said:
It isn't working. It really isn't.CarlottaVance said:The EU has refused to negotiate our future relationship until we have left.
Mrs May's 'red lines' are about that future relationship - which hasn't been negotiated yet.
Simon Jenkins suggestions are about the future relationship and have nothing to do with the Withdrawal Agreement - which is about settling accounts, creating a transition phase to negotiate that future relationship, AND a 'Backstop' necessitated by the EU's refusal to negotiate a future relationship before we've left - which may well sink the whole deal.
Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?
Its not pretty, but, after a fashion, its working - this is a feature, not a bug.
"Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?"
I wrote a section earlier and then deleted it, stating how history might show May with some credit in this mess. It's not her mess, whatever PB's self-proclaimed master negotiators say. She's tried damned hard to get a deal (which many on here said she wouldn't get) - and one that is acceptable to many leavers on here. She's tried to sell it.
The problem is that parliament is not functioning; it has utterly broken down. Too few are willing to make the compromises a working democracy requires.
However, we are now where we are.
IMHO the EU leadership has been extremely patient and forbearing, especially as it has a duty to protect Ireland's interests.
That backstop may yet stop a deal being made and poison the future relationship.0 -
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1106443493508042753
On a 'per population' basis that's proportionately almost as many as died on 9/11 - and the equivalent of five times the number killed by the IRA in mainland UK during the troubles.0 -
Good morning, everyone.
Damn it, I'll have missed the boat. Still, I got really lucky with the Lib Dem leadership contest last time so can't complain too much. I wonder if Cable felt the new threat of the Tiggers meant he should go sooner rather than later.0 -
Extension? Our price is the Elgin Marbles, Greece could say. Best chance they have of ever getting them back.Endillion said:
Hypothetically, why shouldn't (say) Slovenia decide that they can leverage their ability to bring about No Deal, in exchange for whatever Slovenia currently wants out of the EU? What happens of three or four countries try this?Philip_Thompson said:
The EU voting to grant no further extensions is voting to enforce no deal. Its not going to happen realistically.Richard_Tyndall said:
No. Until they vote 'for' something they are just whistling in the wind. Once the EU decide to grant no further extensions, Parliament must vote to either accept the deal or revoke. Voting to refute a No Deal is like voting to refute gravity.kle4 said:
I don't understand your point. What Parliament decides to do on our behalf will be what matters.Richard_Tyndall said:
No we didn't. Parliament said that. For better or worse they are not the same thing.kle4 said:
And while it requires more actual work to implement, we just said we won't no deal.Endillion said:
They didn't renegotiate one word of the WA, as they said they wouldn't. They said they won't renegotiate it over the next couple of weeks, and they won't. At no stage in proceedings have the EU done anything they said explicitly that they wouldn't do. They won't start now.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU closed negotiations in November. Didn't stop them having a talk a few days ago. Conveniently there's more meetings scheduled with the EU in the next couple of weeks already.Endillion said:
I believe this. But the EU has closed negotiations, so what left is there for May to say to them?Y0kel said:
I repeat, again, regarding the DUP if it now still isn't evident to some. They really do want to find a way to achieve support for the May deal if they can. They just happen to have come to 'talk' at a moment when they have quite a long and flexible lever.
I repeat what should have happened all along. Get Barnier, May, Varadkar and the DUP [I don't know if its Dodds or Foster who is really in charge] in the same room, metaphorically lock the doors and tell them they can come out once they've reached an agreement.0 -
The point is, the Political Declaration could be revisited now, to make it more friendly to Labour so they might vote for it and we leave the EU in an orderly fashion. Ask yourself why Theresa May refuses to do this.CarlottaVance said:
The sensible compromise is clear: soft Brexit. It is variously codenamed common market 2.0, or Norway, or customs union, or EEA. Under it, Britain leaves the EU but remains in Europe’s wider economic zone. Such an off-the-shelf package is known to be acceptable to Brussels. It respects the pleas of industry and commerce not to wreck Britain’s continental trade for pie-in-the-sky “deals with the rest of the world”.IanB2 said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/brexit-option-compromise-referendum-vote-theresa-may-labour
It is no longer only May and her deal that are on trial. So too is the House of Commons, and whether it is any longer a useful adjunct to responsible government. When Britain is out of this mess, parliament must reform. It should use its impending exile from the Palace of Westminster to galvanise its future as a legislature. It should leave London for a while and immerse itself in the provinces. It should find a voting system that better reflects popular opinion. The bloated House of Lords should be replaced. A fairer balance is needed between England and the UK’s other nations.
Only then will this farrago have served some purpose. As it is, Britain must this weekend await enough MPs with the guts to cross the bridge of compromise. Nothing else will do.
Possibly so.
But whats that got to do with the WA?
It's a matter for the "Political Declaration" which can easily be revisited once we have left.
If even someone like Jenkins is as clueless on this, why are we surprised MPs are too?0 -
Isn’t that more eco-fascism?Foxy said:
Like in Christchurch?Richard_Tyndall said:
Civil War it is then.HYUFD said:
Portillo said on This Week he expects the Commons to narrowly vote to revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit if no extension grantedRichard_Tyndall said:
It is not that it is the law. It is that it is part of a treaty we signed up to under Gordon Brown and over which we have no power. There is no 'law' to change. If we do not come up with an alternative - a deal, revoke or extend - then we will be leaving no matter how many laws we pass.dixiedean said:
We leave on March 29, it's the law became a mantra. Repeated endlessly until absorbed in the heart.Sean_F said:I see that even on UKIP Home, support for the WA has doubled to 40%. It seems that some people are starting to think "Gosh, I never realised that voting against Brexit could stop Brexit from happening."
That the law can be changed, even on matters of religious faith, seems to be a surprise .
It is sad that this late in the day this still has to be explained. Voting to reject No Deal achieves nothing. We have now perhaps got a temporary respite if the EU deign to agree an extension but otherwise we accept the deal or we revoke. They are the only ways to avoid No Deal.0 -
TIG is an opportunity rather than a threat. But yes, it's significant because a new leader is required to capitalise on that opportunity.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Damn it, I'll have missed the boat. Still, I got really lucky with the Lib Dem leadership contest last time so can't complain too much. I wonder if Cable felt the new threat of the Tiggers meant he should go sooner rather than later.0 -
Spain...(election campaign under way)....Gibraltar....MarqueeMark said:
Extension? Our price is the Elgin Marbles, Greece could say. Best chance they have of ever getting them back.Endillion said:
Hypothetically, why shouldn't (say) Slovenia decide that they can leverage their ability to bring about No Deal, in exchange for whatever Slovenia currently wants out of the EU? What happens of three or four countries try this?Philip_Thompson said:
The EU voting to grant no further extensions is voting to enforce no deal. Its not going to happen realistically.Richard_Tyndall said:
No. Until they vote 'for' something they are just whistling in the wind. Once the EU decide to grant no further extensions, Parliament must vote to either accept the deal or revoke. Voting to refute a No Deal is like voting to refute gravity.kle4 said:
I don't understand your point. What Parliament decides to do on our behalf will be what matters.Richard_Tyndall said:
No we didn't. Parliament said that. For better or worse they are not the same thing.kle4 said:
And while it requires more actual work to implement, we just said we won't no deal.Endillion said:
They didn't renegotiate one word of the WA, as they said they wouldn't. They said they won't renegotiate it over the next couple of weeks, and they won't. At no stage in proceedings have the EU done anything they said explicitly that they wouldn't do. They won't start now.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU closed negotiations in November. Didn't stop them having a talk a few days ago. Conveniently there's more meetings scheduled with the EU in the next couple of weeks already.Endillion said:
I believe this. But the EU has closed negotiations, so what left is there for May to say to them?Y0kel said:
I repeat, again, regarding the DUP if it now still isn't evident to some. They really do want to find a way to achieve support for the May deal if they can. They just happen to have come to 'talk' at a moment when they have quite a long and flexible lever.
I repeat what should have happened all along. Get Barnier, May, Varadkar and the DUP [I don't know if its Dodds or Foster who is really in charge] in the same room, metaphorically lock the doors and tell them they can come out once they've reached an agreement.0 -
Surely the EU offered a perfectly reasonable deal, then May went back and wanted changes, at the behest of a small group of fully paid up members of the Awkward Squad.Alanbrooke said:
If May has failed so has the EU neither is getting a deal over the line.OldKingCole said:
Surely her first crucial error was to treat this Brexit solely as a party political matter and secondly to go for the 2017 election on the basis that she could then use the resulting Tory majority to steamroller objections.JosiasJessop said:
It isn't working. It really isn't.CarlottaVance said:The EU has refused to negotiate our future relationship until we have left.
Mrs May's 'red lines' are about that future relationship - which hasn't been negotiated yet.
Simon Jenkins suggestions are about the future relationship and have nothing to do with the Withdrawal Agreement - which is about settling accounts, creating a transition phase to negotiate that future relationship, AND a 'Backstop' necessitated by the EU's refusal to negotiate a future relationship before we've left - which may well sink the whole deal.
Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?
Its not pretty, but, after a fashion, its working - this is a feature, not a bug.
"Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?"
I wrote a section earlier and then deleted it, stating how history might show May with some credit in this mess. It's not her mess, whatever PB's self-proclaimed master negotiators say. She's tried damned hard to get a deal (which many on here said she wouldn't get) - and one that is acceptable to many leavers on here. She's tried to sell it.
The problem is that parliament is not functioning; it has utterly broken down. Too few are willing to make the compromises a working democracy requires.
However, we are now where we are.
IMHO the EU leadership has been extremely patient and forbearing, especially as it has a duty to protect Ireland's interests.0 -
She has pandered to her right wing from the beginning - allowing them free votes even now - and taken three years to work out a way of bringing pressure on them to face reality. That she has now done so is something but surely it is too late.OldKingCole said:
Surely her first crucial error was to treat this Brexit solely as a party political matter and secondly to go for the 2017 election on the basis that she could then use the resulting Tory majority to steamroller objections.JosiasJessop said:
It isn't working. It really isn't.CarlottaVance said:The EU has refused to negotiate our future relationship until we have left.
Mrs May's 'red lines' are about that future relationship - which hasn't been negotiated yet.
Simon Jenkins suggestions are about the future relationship and have nothing to do with the Withdrawal Agreement - which is about settling accounts, creating a transition phase to negotiate that future relationship, AND a 'Backstop' necessitated by the EU's refusal to negotiate a future relationship before we've left - which may well sink the whole deal.
Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?
Its not pretty, but, after a fashion, its working - this is a feature, not a bug.
"Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?"
I wrote a section earlier and then deleted it, stating how history might show May with some credit in this mess. It's not her mess, whatever PB's self-proclaimed master negotiators say. She's tried damned hard to get a deal (which many on here said she wouldn't get) - and one that is acceptable to many leavers on here. She's tried to sell it.
The problem is that parliament is not functioning; it has utterly broken down. Too few are willing to make the compromises a working democracy requires.
However, we are now where we are.
IMHO the EU leadership has been extremely patient and forbearing, especially as it has a duty to protect Ireland's interests.0 -
Yup, even labour’s permanent ‘customs union’ which they say is their non negotiable requirement for support is part of the future harassing agreement, not the two year WA. Though if we intended to adopt a Norway (plus?) style future relationship it would be a case of marching up the hill and down again.CarlottaVance said:
The EU has refused to negotiate our future relationship until we have left.JosiasJessop said:
I think they're pissed off with us - and rightly so.CarlottaVance said:
You think they'll object to us pivoting to a softer Brexit and restoring FoM (which is what it will mean, despite Magic Grandpa's obfuscations)?JosiasJessop said:
"which can easily be revisited once we have left."CarlottaVance said:
The sensible compromise is clear: soft Brexit. It is variously codenamed common market 2.0, or Norway, or customs union, or EEA. Under it, Britain leaves the EU but remains in Europe’s wider economic zone. Such an off-the-shelf package is known to be acceptable to Brussels. It respects the pleas of industry and commerce not to wreck Britain’s continental trade for pie-in-the-sky “deals with the rest of the world”.IanB2 said:
Possibly so.
But whats that got to do with the WA?
It's a matter for the "Political Declaration" which can easily be revisited once we have left.
If even someone like Jenkins is as clueless on this, why are we surprised MPs are too?
Really?
Brexit is a national embarrassment. It has turned us into an international laughing stock. given our chaotic behaviour, we have not ad.
We're Little Britain, thanks to the Brexiteers.
Mrs May's 'red lines' are about that future relationship - which hasn't been negotiated yet.
Simon Jenkins suggestions are about the future relationship and have nothing to do with the Withdrawal Agreement - which is about settling accounts, creating a transition phase to negotiate that future relationship, AND a 'Backstop' necessitated by the EU's refusal to negotiate a future relationship before we've left - which may well sink the whole deal.
Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?
Its not pretty, but, after a fashion, its working - this is a feature, not a bug.
There is a logic because it means we negotiate our future agreement from a year zero we’re out of everything and let’s opt in on things we both find mutually beneficial rather than you are in, let’s just change nothing except your voting rights.
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Because i) it won't get past the EU and ii) "Softening" Brexit will lead to more trouble on her own benches.FF43 said:
The point is, the Political Declaration could be revisited now, to make it more friendly to Labour so they might vote for it and we leave the EU in an orderly fashion. Ask yourself why Theresa May refuses to do this.CarlottaVance said:
The sensible compromise is clear: soft Brexit. It is variously codenamed common market 2.0, or Norway, or customs union, or EEA. Under it, Britain leaves the EU but remains in Europe’s wider economic zone. Such an off-the-shelf package is known to be acceptable to Brussels. It respects the pleas of industry and commerce not to wreck Britain’s continental trade for pie-in-the-sky “deals with the rest of the world”.IanB2 said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/brexit-option-compromise-referendum-vote-theresa-may-labour
It is no longer only May and her deal that are on trial. So too is the House of Commons, and whether it is any longer a useful adjunct to responsible government. When Britain is out of this mess, parliament must reform. It should use its impending exile from the Palace of Westminster to galvanise its future as a legislature. It should leave London for a while and immerse itself in the provinces. It should find a voting system that better reflects popular opinion. The bloated House of Lords should be replaced. A fairer balance is needed between England and the UK’s other nations.
Only then will this farrago have served some purpose. As it is, Britain must this weekend await enough MPs with the guts to cross the bridge of compromise. Nothing else will do.
Possibly so.
But whats that got to do with the WA?
It's a matter for the "Political Declaration" which can easily be revisited once we have left.
If even someone like Jenkins is as clueless on this, why are we surprised MPs are too?
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As has been pointed out numerous times for a deal to hold it has to have the commitment of both sides, The EU negotiators pushed their mandate to maximise their interest against a weak UK government. Fair dos, thats their choice, but if it means that the other side cant complete the deal then thats poor megotiation. Likewise if they pushed their advantage and ended up with a deal the other side wont accept long term all theyve done is negotiate a truce.OldKingCole said:
Surely the EU offered a perfectly reasonable deal, then May went back and wanted changes, at the behest of a small group of fully paid up members of the Awkward Squad.Alanbrooke said:
If May has failed so has the EU neither is getting a deal over the line.OldKingCole said:
Surely her first crucial error was to treat this Brexit solely as a party political matter and secondly to go for the 2017 election on the basis that she could then use the resulting Tory majority to steamroller objections.JosiasJessop said:
It isn't working. It really isn't.CarlottaVance said:The EU has refused to negotiate our future relationship until we have left.
Mrs May's 'red lines' are about that future relationship - which hasn't been negotiated yet.
Simon Jenkins suggestions are about the future relationship and have nothing to do with the Withdrawal Agreement - which is about settling accounts, creating a transition phase to negotiate that future relationship, AND a 'Backstop' necessitated by the EU's refusal to negotiate a future relationship before we've left - which may well sink the whole deal.
Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?
Its not pretty, but, after a fashion, its working - this is a feature, not a bug.
"Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?"
I wrote a section earlier and then deleted it, stating how history might show May with some credit in this mess. It's not her mess, whatever PB's self-proclaimed master negotiators say. She's tried damned hard to get a deal (which many on here said she wouldn't get) - and one that is acceptable to many leavers on here. She's tried to sell it.
The problem is that parliament is not functioning; it has utterly broken down. Too few are willing to make the compromises a working democracy requires.
However, we are now where we are.
IMHO the EU leadership has been extremely patient and forbearing, especially as it has a duty to protect Ireland's interests.0 -
Question now has to be what the EU do next. I am certain they will offer an extension, but it will be a long long one. There is no point in offering a few months - the UK isn't going to do anything with a few months other than continue to self harm.
So they'll offer years. Which in itself is provocative as it suggests that we completely rethink our approach. I assume that MPs will get to debate whether or not we accept this long long delay?
As for MV3, it still won't pass. Brexiteers will hold on waiting for the clock to run to zero delivering hard Brexit. Remainers will hold on pushing for either years of extension or revoke. I don't understand why May can't see that it won't pass. Oh yes, I can see why. She is stupid.0 -
Just seen the mosque attack headline. Sounds horrific.0
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Mr Cole,
"Surely her first crucial error was to treat this Brexit solely as a party political matter."
As did all the other parties at Westminster, and that's why all the MPs are having heavy criticism. Grandstanding with a vengeance. They had an instruction, as asked for, from the referendum, and instead of facilitating it, they've done their best to delay things.
Yes, they will insist they are not mere delivery boys and have a right to blah, blah, blah. Sorry, but the voters thought they would do what they promised for once. Alas, they couldn't put aside party differences to do a specific task. A pox on all their houses.
Even now, some fail to see our their reputation is below even lawyers and only just above kiddy-fiddlers. This may not be the case on PB but in the wider world ...0 -
ydoethur said:
That's brilliant! I love the Freudian nature of autocorrect.notme2 said:Yup, even labour’s permanent ‘customs union’ which they say is their non negotiable requirement for support is part of the future harassing agreement, not the two year WA.
yeah. iPad seems to wilfully autocorrrect.
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Horrendous news from New Zealand0
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I fear it’s too little, too late.Sean_F said:I see that even on UKIP Home, support for the WA has doubled to 40%. It seems that some people are starting to think "Gosh, I never realised that voting against Brexit could stop Brexit from happening."
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I would accept that other parties attitudes didn't help, but we don't elect delegates. We elect representatives who are supposed to do their best with the information they have, which may well be more than the general public do.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
"Surely her first crucial error was to treat this Brexit solely as a party political matter."
As did all the other parties at Westminster, and that's why all the MPs are having heavy criticism. Grandstanding with a vengeance. They had an instruction, as asked for, from the referendum, and instead of facilitating it, they've done their best to delay things.
Yes, they will insist they are not mere delivery boys and have a right to blah, blah, blah. Sorry, but the voters thought they would do what they promised for once. Alas, they couldn't put aside party differences to do a specific task. A pox on all their houses.
Even now, some fail to see our their reputation is below even lawyers and only just above kiddy-fiddlers. This may not be the case on PB but in the wider world ...0 -
Mojave, Apple's latest (I think) is a whatsit for that, too.notme2 said:ydoethur said:
That's brilliant! I love the Freudian nature of autocorrect.notme2 said:Yup, even labour’s permanent ‘customs union’ which they say is their non negotiable requirement for support is part of the future harassing agreement, not the two year WA.
yeah. iPad seems to wilfully autocorrrect.
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EU negotiators might console themelves that "Ha! The UK comes off worst under No Deal!" Slightly more rational voices in the 27 might wonder what the purpose of the EU is really about, if the price for it being protected is that already fragile economies are plunged into recession.Alanbrooke said:
If May has failed so has the EU neither is getting a deal over the line.OldKingCole said:
Surely her first crucial error was to treat this Brexit solely as a party political matter and secondly to go for the 2017 election on the basis that she could then use the resulting Tory majority to steamroller objections.JosiasJessop said:
It isn't working. It really isn't.CarlottaVance said:The EU has refused to negotiate our future relationship until we have left.
Mrs May's 'red lines' are about that future relationship - which hasn't been negotiated yet.
Simon Jenkins suggestions are about the future relationship and have nothing to do with the Withdrawal Agreement - which is about settling accounts, creating a transition phase to negotiate that future relationship, AND a 'Backstop' necessitated by the EU's refusal to negotiate a future relationship before we've left - which may well sink the whole deal.
Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?
Its not pretty, but, after a fashion, its working - this is a feature, not a bug.
"Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?"
I wrote a section earlier and then deleted it, stating how history might show May with some credit in this mess. It's not her mess, whatever PB's self-proclaimed master negotiators say. She's tried damned hard to get a deal (which many on here said she wouldn't get) - and one that is acceptable to many leavers on here. She's tried to sell it.
The problem is that parliament is not functioning; it has utterly broken down. Too few are willing to make the compromises a working democracy requires.
However, we are now where we are.
IMHO the EU leadership has been extremely patient and forbearing, especially as it has a duty to protect Ireland's interests.
When the EU negotiators see short term gain as better than long term pain, they have got the wrong end of the stick on their purpose. They should not expect history to be kind to them.0 -
Mr Cole,
"Surely the EU offered a perfectly reasonable deal,"
To a Remainer like you and Mrs May who trust the EU, perhaps..
But where faith is lacking, there is no certainty. It's a fudge which relies on good faith all round. I'd accept it unwillingly but if we trusted the EU, Remain might have won the referendum.
The EU is looking after number one, as we know. The refusal even to discuss trade at the beginning showed there'd be no meeting of minds and their agenda isn't ours. Its their way or the highway and many in the UK still want their way.0 -
As I said, the EU has concerns for one of its members which looks as though they might have considerable difficulties as a result of Britain's leaving.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
"Surely the EU offered a perfectly reasonable deal,"
To a Remainer like you and Mrs May who trust the EU, perhaps..
But where faith is lacking, there is no certainty. It's a fudge which relies on good faith all round. I'd accept it unwillingly but if we trusted the EU, Remain might have won the referendum.
The EU is looking after number one, as we know. The refusal even to discuss trade at the beginning showed there'd be no meeting of minds and their agenda isn't ours. Its their way or the highway and many in the UK still want their way.0 -
Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.0
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Indeed.AndyJS said:I can't believe an Australian senator has actually posted those comments on Twitter. Unbelievable.
If I was An Australian I'd be campaigning to get this guy out of politics. And I'm not a campaigner (*). I hope he gets rightly censured for this.
It is perhaps time for the more fervent anti-Islam people on here to start considering where their talk can lead.
(*) In fact, my campaigning skills are so bad that I'd probably do more harm than good ...0 -
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
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You could campaign for him.JosiasJessop said:
Indeed.AndyJS said:I can't believe an Australian senator has actually posted those comments on Twitter. Unbelievable.
If I was An Australian I'd be campaigning to get this guy out of politics. And I'm not a campaigner (*). I hope he gets rightly censured for this.
It is perhaps time for the more fervent anti-Islam people on here to start considering where their talk can lead.
(*) In fact, my campaigning skills are so bad that I'd probably do more harm than good ...
And preface every comment, 'yeah, he's a mentally deficient racist, but...'
That might work.0 -
Christchurch does seem to have suffered a lot recently.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
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Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.0 -
The backstop is all about Theresa May’s red lines.CarlottaVance said:
The sensible compromise is clear: soft Brexit. It is variously codenamed common market 2.0, or Norway, or customs union, or EEA. Under it, Britain leaves the EU but remains in Europe’s wider economic zone. Such an off-the-shelf package is known to be acceptable to Brussels. It respects the pleas of industry and commerce not to wreck Britain’s continental trade for pie-in-the-sky “deals with the rest of the world”.IanB2 said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/brexit-option-compromise-referendum-vote-theresa-may-labour
It is no longer only May and her deal that are on trial. So too is the House of Commons, and whether it is any longer a useful adjunct to responsible government. When Britain is out of this mess, parliament must reform. It should use its impending exile from the Palace of Westminster to galvanise its future as a legislature. It should leave London for a while and immerse itself in the provinces. It should find a voting system that better reflects popular opinion. The bloated House of Lords should be replaced. A fairer balance is needed between England and the UK’s other nations.
Only then will this farrago have served some purpose. As it is, Britain must this weekend await enough MPs with the guts to cross the bridge of compromise. Nothing else will do.
Possibly so.
But whats that got to do with the WA?
It's a matter for the "Political Declaration" which can easily be revisited once we have left.
If even someone like Jenkins is as clueless on this, why are we surprised MPs are too?
0 -
Eh? What's the eco component?notme2 said:
Isn’t that more eco-fascism?Foxy said:
Like in Christchurch?Richard_Tyndall said:
Civil War it is then.HYUFD said:
Portillo said on This Week he expects the Commons to narrowly vote to revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit if no extension grantedRichard_Tyndall said:
It is not that it is the law. It is that it is part of a treaty we signed up to under Gordon Brown and over which we have no power. There is no 'law' to change. If we do not come up with an alternative - a deal, revoke or extend - then we will be leaving no matter how many laws we pass.dixiedean said:
We leave on March 29, it's the law became a mantra. Repeated endlessly until absorbed in the heart.Sean_F said:I see that even on UKIP Home, support for the WA has doubled to 40%. It seems that some people are starting to think "Gosh, I never realised that voting against Brexit could stop Brexit from happening."
That the law can be changed, even on matters of religious faith, seems to be a surprise .
It is sad that this late in the day this still has to be explained. Voting to reject No Deal achieves nothing. We have now perhaps got a temporary respite if the EU deign to agree an extension but otherwise we accept the deal or we revoke. They are the only ways to avoid No Deal.0 -
F1: just checking the markets (haven't seen practice yet), but Bottas to 'win' qualifying is down from 17 to 9.0
-
0
-
The backstop is about the future relationship - which the EU have refused to negotiate.SouthamObserver said:
The backstop is all about Theresa May’s red lines.CarlottaVance said:
The sensible compromise is clear: soft Brexit. It is variously codenamed common market 2.0, or Norway, or customs union, or EEA. Under it, Britain leaves the EU but remains in Europe’s wider economic zone. Such an off-the-shelf package is known to be acceptable to Brussels. It respects the pleas of industry and commerce not to wreck Britain’s continental trade for pie-in-the-sky “deals with the rest of the world”.IanB2 said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/brexit-option-compromise-referendum-vote-theresa-may-labour
It is no longer only May and her deal that are on trial. So too is the House of Commons, and whether it is any longer a useful adjunct to responsible government. When Britain is out of this mess, parliament must reform. It should use its impending exile from the Palace of Westminster to galvanise its future as a legislature. It should leave London for a while and immerse itself in the provinces. It should find a voting system that better reflects popular opinion. The bloated House of Lords should be replaced. A fairer balance is needed between England and the UK’s other nations.
Only then will this farrago have served some purpose. As it is, Britain must this weekend await enough MPs with the guts to cross the bridge of compromise. Nothing else will do.
Possibly so.
But whats that got to do with the WA?
It's a matter for the "Political Declaration" which can easily be revisited once we have left.
If even someone like Jenkins is as clueless on this, why are we surprised MPs are too?0 -
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.0 -
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.0 -
One of the shooters self describes himself as an eco fascist.Theuniondivvie said:
Eh? What's the eco component?notme2 said:
Isn’t that more eco-fascism?Foxy said:
Like in Christchurch?Richard_Tyndall said:
Civil War it is then.HYUFD said:
Portillo said on This Week he expects the Commons to narrowly vote to revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit if no extension grantedRichard_Tyndall said:
It is not that it is the law. It is that it is part of a treaty we signed up to under Gordon Brown and over which we have no power. There is no 'law' to change. If we do not come up with an alternative - a deal, revoke or extend - then we will be leaving no matter how many laws we pass.dixiedean said:
We leave on March 29, it's the law became a mantra. Repeated endlessly until absorbed in the heart.Sean_F said:I see that even on UKIP Home, support for the WA has doubled to 40%. It seems that some people are starting to think "Gosh, I never realised that voting against Brexit could stop Brexit from happening."
That the law can be changed, even on matters of religious faith, seems to be a surprise .
It is sad that this late in the day this still has to be explained. Voting to reject No Deal achieves nothing. We have now perhaps got a temporary respite if the EU deign to agree an extension but otherwise we accept the deal or we revoke. They are the only ways to avoid No Deal.
http://a65.tinypic.com/29yh08z.jpg0 -
F1: Weird. The odds (they were still up on my bet slip) on Ladbrokes have apparently fallen from 17 to 9, for Bottas to be fastest qualifier, but the market doesn't seem to be where it should be.
Anyway, I'm not one for short odds bets, but if you are there are two you should consider:
Mercedes, double top 6 finish, 1.53.
Gasly, top 6 finish, 1.66.
The sport has been two-tier for the last few seasons now. If that continues, Gasly should get a top 6 finish fairly easily. Of course, he could always bugger it up.
On Mercedes, they're likely either fastest or second fastest. Again, double top 6 finish should be easy for them.
As always, reliability problems and driver error can arise, which is why I'm not fond of short odds bets.
Going to start the pre-qualifying ramble, which will be up today as P3 kicks off around three or four in the morning.0 -
There’s quite a lot of racial and class tension, not just Maori/white but also resentment of Somali immigrants and so on. It is a lovely place but no idyll. (But then where is?)Casino_Royale said:
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.0 -
-
Trump's sole tweet in the last 5 hours a link to Breitbart.
0 -
On topic:
I’ve already seen “Anyone but Jo” and “Anyone but Davey” posts on Lib Dem forums so far this morning.0 -
I hope he was using low emission rounds.notme2 said:
One of the shooters self describes himself as an eco fascist.Theuniondivvie said:
Eh? What's the eco component?notme2 said:
Isn’t that more eco-fascism?Foxy said:
Like in Christchurch?Richard_Tyndall said:
Civil War it is then.HYUFD said:
Portillo said on This Week he expects the Commons to narrowly vote to revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit if no extension grantedRichard_Tyndall said:
It is not that it is the law. It is that it is part of a treaty we signed up to under Gordon Brown and over which we have no power. There is no 'law' to change. If we do not come up with an alternative - a deal, revoke or extend - then we will be leaving no matter how many laws we pass.dixiedean said:
We leave on March 29, it's the law became a mantra. Repeated endlessly until absorbed in the heart.Sean_F said:I see that even on UKIP Home, support for the WA has doubled to 40%. It seems that some people are starting to think "Gosh, I never realised that voting against Brexit could stop Brexit from happening."
That the law can be changed, even on matters of religious faith, seems to be a surprise .
It is sad that this late in the day this still has to be explained. Voting to reject No Deal achieves nothing. We have now perhaps got a temporary respite if the EU deign to agree an extension but otherwise we accept the deal or we revoke. They are the only ways to avoid No Deal.
http://a65.tinypic.com/29yh08z.jpg0 -
I thought air crash investigations were usually conducted in secret so they could reach conclusions without prejudging things ? There seems to be a lot of interim information being leakedCarlottaVance said:0 -
Horrible news in NZ, puts our local Brexit chaos in perspective.
Hope the house gets a grip and we end next week in a better place than today. Hopefully with a long delay with a route to a better outcome than the current flawed deal. Or if not possible the current deal and way forward. Either one better than current limbo.0 -
We know they wont. As supporters on here show they believe the EU will make changes, that the DUP really want to climb down they just need something more even though there is nothing to give.CarlottaVance said:The Sun says:
IT is surely now obvious to Tory Brexiteers that defeating Theresa May’s deal again will be a disastrous act of self-harm.
Some are waking up to it. Too many are holding out for something better.
It’s not coming.
Mrs May’s shock victories last night leave her battered agreement as still somehow the only viable option, even if she has been humiliatingly reduced to asking the EU for a short delay.
Kill it again next week and that’s it.
The PM will be ordered to beg a long delay, swallowing any conditions Brussels wants to impose.
Remainer MPs will take back control, as they failed to do last night by only two votes, and Tory support will collapse.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8641594/theresa-may-brexit-deal-self-harm/
Will even the most Bone-headed ERG members get it?
Long delays, even remaining, these have been factored into the thinking of the hardliners already. Sure a few more may not have realised how close to no Brexit we are, but others openly acknowledge it and accept it.0 -
Up to a point that is true, but like Australia it is very urbanised, with all the problems of city life anywhere. This film set in South Auckland shows some of the violent gang culture, but it could even be found in quite small towns.Casino_Royale said:
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.
https://youtu.be/N0-Q3ChKcfE0 -
Somali migration tends to be ‘problematic’ in many places.El_Capitano said:
There’s quite a lot of racial and class tension, not just Maori/white but also resentment of Somali immigrants and so on. It is a lovely place but no idyll. (But then where is?)Casino_Royale said:
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.0 -
How are they available opportunity? Haven't they said they're going to run in every seat (and therefore against lib dems)?ThomasNashe said:
TIG is an opportunity rather than a threat. But yes, it's significant because a new leader is required to capitalise on that opportunity.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Damn it, I'll have missed the boat. Still, I got really lucky with the Lib Dem leadership contest last time so can't complain too much. I wonder if Cable felt the new threat of the Tiggers meant he should go sooner rather than later.0 -
And it is not just 27 countries demanding concessions from the UK, they could also ask for concessions from the other EU countries e.g. getting Merkel's chequebook out.CarlottaVance said:
Spain...(election campaign under way)....Gibraltar....MarqueeMark said:
Extension? Our price is the Elgin Marbles, Greece could say. Best chance they have of ever getting them back.Endillion said:
Hypothetically, why shouldn't (say) Slovenia decide that they can leverage their ability to bring about No Deal, in exchange for whatever Slovenia currently wants out of the EU? What happens of three or four countries try this?Philip_Thompson said:
The EU voting to grant no further extensions is voting to enforce no deal. Its not going to happen realistically.Richard_Tyndall said:
No. Until they vote 'for' something they are just whistling in the wind. Once the EU decide to grant no further extensions, Parliament must vote to either accept the deal or revoke. Voting to refute a No Deal is like voting to refute gravity.kle4 said:
I don't understand your point. What Parliament decides to do on our behalf will be what matters.Richard_Tyndall said:
No we didn't. Parliament said that. For better or worse they are not the same thing.kle4 said:
And while it requires more actual work to implement, we just said we won't no deal.Endillion said:
They didn't renegotiate one word of the WA, as they said they wouldn't. They said they won't renegotiate it over the next couple of weeks, and they won't. At no stage in proceedings have the EU done anything they said explicitly that they wouldn't do. They won't start now.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU closed negotiations in November. Didn't stop them having a talk a few days ago. Conveniently there's more meetings scheduled with the EU in the next couple of weeks already.Endillion said:
I believe this. But the EU has closed negotiations, so what left is there for May to say to them?Y0kel said:
I repeat, again, regarding the DUP if it now still isn't evident to some. They really do want to find a way to achieve support for the May deal if they can. They just happen to have come to 'talk' at a moment when they have quite a long and flexible lever.
I repeat what should have happened all along. Get Barnier, May, Varadkar and the DUP [I don't know if its Dodds or Foster who is really in charge] in the same room, metaphorically lock the doors and tell them they can come out once they've reached an agreement.0 -
The South Island is very different to the North Island in that regardFoxy said:
Up to a point that is true, but like Australia it is very urbanised, with all the problems of city life anywhere. This film set in South Auckland shows some of the violent gang culture, but it could even be found in quite small towns.Casino_Royale said:
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.
https://youtu.be/N0-Q3ChKcfE
0 -
If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.
And Labour is going to be in the firing line. People KNOW that Labour is playing games over Brexit. This is not a win for them - as their slide in the polls shows.
It doesn't have to be that way. There is a huge opportunity for Corbyn to come across as the statesman. He can make the cheap political point that the Conservative Party is "hopelessly split". He can make the cheap political point that May's Deal is shit. But then he could say these two have combined to give us a country that is struggling to find a way through Brexit. This Government has brought us to the cliff edge. However, in the national interest, he will not oppose a call for MV3. And so as to bring an end to the damaging uncertainty the UK faces, to save jobs, to save the economy, to stop small factions having a stranglehold over the government of this country, he will instruct his party to abstain on MV3. If May's Deal falls, if Brexit fails, it will not be down to the Labour Party.......0 -
It seems to be focusing all its energies on begging to the DUP on the not unreasonable grounds that that will likely get a bunch more Tory votes too and maybe even a few labour ones. But they should be doing both or going full soft Brexit to seek loads of labour votes since given ERG holdouts even if the DUP climb down, it's not just some labour voted they need, its potentially a couple dozen at least.AlastairMeeks said:
If there is indeed an MV3 it could only pass with some Labour votes. Right now the government should be putting energy into courting them. If it is, it’s invisible.CarlottaVance said:The Sun says:
IT is surely now obvious to Tory Brexiteers that defeating Theresa May’s deal again will be a disastrous act of self-harm.
Some are waking up to it. Too many are holding out for something better.
It’s not coming.
Mrs May’s shock victories last night leave her battered agreement as still somehow the only viable option, even if she has been humiliatingly reduced to asking the EU for a short delay.
Kill it again next week and that’s it.
The PM will be ordered to beg a long delay, swallowing any conditions Brussels wants to impose.
Remainer MPs will take back control, as they failed to do last night by only two votes, and Tory support will collapse.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8641594/theresa-may-brexit-deal-self-harm/
Will even the most Bone-headed ERG members get it?0 -
F1: hmm, Raikkonen 6th in both practice sessions so far.
Sounds like a promising young driver for Alfa Romeo.0 -
It’s pretty clear that there is no way on earth a future relationship could have been negotiated in two years. If we had tried we’d be in exactly the place we are now for exactly the same reasons.CarlottaVance said:
The backstop is about the future relationship - which the EU have refused to negotiate.SouthamObserver said:
The backstop is all about Theresa May’s red lines.CarlottaVance said:
The sensible compromise is clear: soft Brexit. It is variously codenamed common market 2.0, or Norway, or customs union, or EEA. Under it, Britain leaves the EU but remains in Europe’s wider economic zone. Such an off-the-shelf package is known to be acceptable to Brussels. It respects the pleas of industry and commerce not to wreck Britain’s continental trade for pie-in-the-sky “deals with the rest of the world”.IanB2 said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/brexit-option-compromise-referendum-vote-theresa-may-labour
It is no longer only May and her deal that are on trial. So too is the House of Commons, and whether it is any longer a useful adjunct to responsible government. When Britain is out of this mess, parliament must reform. It should use its impending exile from the Palace of Westminster to galvanise its future as a legislature. It should leave London for a while and immerse itself in the provinces. It should find a voting system that better reflects popular opinion. The bloated House of Lords should be replaced. A fairer balance is needed between England and the UK’s other nations.
Only then will this farrago have served some purpose. As it is, Britain must this weekend await enough MPs with the guts to cross the bridge of compromise. Nothing else will do.
Possibly so.
But whats that got to do with the WA?
It's a matter for the "Political Declaration" which can easily be revisited once we have left.
If even someone like Jenkins is as clueless on this, why are we surprised MPs are too?
0 -
People seem stuck in the notion that voting against the deal is just a political game and they will come good. It’s rejected on principle, people believe it is what is bad for the country. They are not playing games and are unlikely to change.MarqueeMark said:
If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.
And Labour is going to be in the firing line. People KNOW that Labour is playing games over Brexit. This is not a win for them - as their slide in the polls shows.
It doesn't have to be that way. There is a huge opportunity for Corbyn to come across as the statesman. He can make the cheap political point that the Conservative Party is "hopelessly split". He can make the cheap political point that May's Deal is shit. But then he could say these two have combined to give us a country that is struggling to find a way through Brexit. This Government has brought us to the cliff edge. However, in the national interest, he will not oppose a call for MV3. And so as to bring an end to the damaging uncertainty the UK faces, to save jobs, to save the economy, to stop small factions having a stranglehold over the government of this country, he will instruct his party to abstain on MV3. If May's Deal falls, if Brexit fails, it will not be down to the Labour Party.......
0 -
Fascism and Nazism have long incorporated a romanticised attachment to landscape and people, as the past Heimat that they wish to return to, populated by sturdy yeomen peasants, unpolluted by modern cosmopolitanism.notme2 said:
One of the shooters self describes himself as an eco fascist.Theuniondivvie said:
Eh? What's the eco component?notme2 said:
Isn’t that more eco-fascism?Foxy said:
Like in Christchurch?Richard_Tyndall said:
Civil War it is then.HYUFD said:
Portillo said on This Week he expects the Commons to narrowly vote to revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit if no extension grantedRichard_Tyndall said:
It is not that it is the law. It is that it is part of a treaty we signed up to under Gordon Brown and over which we have no power. There is no 'law' to change. If we do not come up with an alternative - a deal, revoke or extend - then we will be leaving no matter how many laws we pass.dixiedean said:
We leave on March 29, it's the law became a mantra. Repeated endlessly until absorbed in the heart.Sean_F said:I see that even on UKIP Home, support for the WA has doubled to 40%. It seems that some people are starting to think "Gosh, I never realised that voting against Brexit could stop Brexit from happening."
That the law can be changed, even on matters of religious faith, seems to be a surprise .
It is sad that this late in the day this still has to be explained. Voting to reject No Deal achieves nothing. We have now perhaps got a temporary respite if the EU deign to agree an extension but otherwise we accept the deal or we revoke. They are the only ways to avoid No Deal.
http://a65.tinypic.com/29yh08z.jpg
It is quite different to the internationalist ecology movement led by people like Jacinta Arden.0 -
I don't think the ERG holdouts can be got below 30. They're mad as hell and some of them have been far too committal to climb down now.kle4 said:
It seems to be focusing all its energies on begging to the DUP on the not unreasonable grounds that that will likely get a bunch more Tory votes too and maybe even a few labour ones. But they should be doing both or going full soft Brexit to seek loads of labour votes since given ERG holdouts even if the DUP climb down, it's not just some labour voted they need, its potentially a couple dozen at least.AlastairMeeks said:
If there is indeed an MV3 it could only pass with some Labour votes. Right now the government should be putting energy into courting them. If it is, it’s invisible.CarlottaVance said:The Sun says:
IT is surely now obvious to Tory Brexiteers that defeating Theresa May’s deal again will be a disastrous act of self-harm.
Some are waking up to it. Too many are holding out for something better.
It’s not coming.
Mrs May’s shock victories last night leave her battered agreement as still somehow the only viable option, even if she has been humiliatingly reduced to asking the EU for a short delay.
Kill it again next week and that’s it.
The PM will be ordered to beg a long delay, swallowing any conditions Brussels wants to impose.
Remainer MPs will take back control, as they failed to do last night by only two votes, and Tory support will collapse.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8641594/theresa-may-brexit-deal-self-harm/
Will even the most Bone-headed ERG members get it?0 -
There is no way TIG are going to stand candidates against incumbent Lib Dems. Not unless there’s a colossal falling out, and given that Soubry is speaking at Lib Dem conference this weekend, that hasn’t happened yet.Stereotomy said:
How are they available opportunity? Haven't they said they're going to run in every seat (and therefore against lib dems)?ThomasNashe said:
TIG is an opportunity rather than a threat. But yes, it's significant because a new leader is required to capitalise on that opportunity.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Damn it, I'll have missed the boat. Still, I got really lucky with the Lib Dem leadership contest last time so can't complain too much. I wonder if Cable felt the new threat of the Tiggers meant he should go sooner rather than later.
Target seats like Cheltenham are more the issue, but I expect an accommodation will be reached.0 -
Oh for crying out loud people are still whinging about being embarrassed? As a nation we really do need to grow up and allow ourselves to have serious and divisive political debates without worrying that satirists and diplomats get chuckles out of it.JosiasJessop said:
I think they're pissed off with us - and rightly so.CarlottaVance said:
You think they'll object to us pivoting to a softer Brexit )?JosiasJessop said:
"which can easily be revisited once we have left."CarlottaVance said:
The sensible compromise is clear: soft Brexit. It is variously codenamed common market 2.0, or Norway, or customs union, or EEA. Under it, Britain leaves the EU but remains in Europe’s wider world”.IanB2 said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/brexit-option-compromise-referendum-vote-theresa-may-labour
It is no longer only May and her deal that are on trial. So too is the House of Commons, and whether it is any longer a useful adjunct to responsible government. When Britain is out of this mess, parliament must reform. It should use its impending exile from the Palace of Westminster to galvanise its future as a legislature. It should leave London for a while and immerse itself in the provinces. It should find a voting system that better reflects popular opinion. The bloated House of Lords should be replaced. A fairer balance is needed between England and the UK’s other nations.
Only then will this farrago have served some purpose. As it is, Britain must this weekend await enough MPs with the guts to cross the bridge of compromise. Nothing else will do.
Possibly so.
But whats that got to do with the WA?
It's a matter for the "Political Declaration" which can easily be revisited once we have left.
If even someone like Jenkins is as clueless on this, why are we surprised MPs are too?
Really?
Brexit is a national embarrassment. It has turned us into an international laughing stock. given our chaotic behaviour, we have not right to expect anything from the other parties involved.
Why should they agree to anything we ask, when we can't even agree amongst ourselves? They know that we'll just change our minds down the road.
We're Little Britain, thanks to the Brexiteers.
Better that unfortunate aspect than the implied alternative, where we dont confront our serious political divisions because what might others think, oh no. Diplomatic relations recover quickly once resolution is finally occurred, to do otherwise would be stupid of them.0 -
To lighten the mood a little on this grim morning:
https://twitter.com/ememess/status/11063357061741158420 -
She’d get them very easily if she could compromise. There are a number of Labour MPs who would jump with some meaningful movement from Mrs May.kle4 said:
It seems to be focusing all its energies on begging to the DUP on the not unreasonable grounds that that will likely get a bunch more Tory votes too and maybe even a few labour ones. But they should be doing both or going full soft Brexit to seek loads of labour votes since given ERG holdouts even if the DUP climb down, it's not just some labour voted they need, its potentially a couple dozen at least.AlastairMeeks said:
If there is indeed an MV3 it could only pass with some Labour votes. Right now the government should be putting energy into courting them. If it is, it’s invisible.CarlottaVance said:The Sun says:
IT is surely now obvious to Tory Brexiteers that defeating Theresa May’s deal again will be a disastrous act of self-harm.
Some are waking up to it. Too many are holding out for something better.
It’s not coming.
Mrs May’s shock victories last night leave her battered agreement as still somehow the only viable option, even if she has been humiliatingly reduced to asking the EU for a short delay.
Kill it again next week and that’s it.
The PM will be ordered to beg a long delay, swallowing any conditions Brussels wants to impose.
Remainer MPs will take back control, as they failed to do last night by only two votes, and Tory support will collapse.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8641594/theresa-may-brexit-deal-self-harm/
Will even the most Bone-headed ERG members get it?
0 -
surprised you'd say that because I've lived in NZ for 14 years and I've never heard of Somali immigrants let alone resentment of them, although I understand that there are issue in Melbourne.El_Capitano said:
There’s quite a lot of racial and class tension, not just Maori/white but also resentment of Somali immigrants and so on. It is a lovely place but no idyll. (But then where is?)Casino_Royale said:
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.0 -
Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.0
-
That mps decide to act so recklessly is not a problem with legislation its a cultural problem.Alanbrooke said:
Parliament not functioning is due to a combination ofJosiasJessop said:
cent weeks putting their case to the legislature?"CarlottaVance said:The EU has refused to negotiate our future relationship until we have left.
Mrs May's 'red lines' are about that future relationship - which hasn't been negotiated yet.
Simon Jenkins suggestions are about the future relationship and have nothing to do with the Withdrawal Agreement - which is about settling accounts, creating a transition phase to negotiate that l.
Much as slature?
Its not pretty, but, after a fashion, its working - this is a feature, not a bug.
I wrote a section earlier and then deleted it, stating how history might show May with some credit in this mess. It's not her mess, whatever PB's self-proclaimed master negotiators say. She's tried damned hard to get a deal (which many on here said she wouldn't get) - and one that is acceptable to many leavers on here. She's tried to sell it.
The problem is that parliament is not functioning; it has utterly broken down. Too few are willing to make the compromises a working democracy requires.
FTPA which can produce zombie governments
Mays botched election scewing up the Parliamentary numbers
The FTPA has to go as it removes the sanction of losing power from government MPs so they can be as mad as a box of frogs and face no downside
May will also have to go as she cant lead a government post Brexit0 -
That’s true. But she doesn’t. Accusing them of playing games hinders the process. May always defaults to backing her right wing.SouthamObserver said:
She’d get them very easily if she could compromise. There are a number of Labour MPs who would jump with some meaningful movement from Mrs May.kle4 said:
It seems to be focusing all its energies on begging to the DUP on the not unreasonable grounds that that will likely get a bunch more Tory votes too and maybe even a few labour ones. But they should be doing both or going full soft Brexit to seek loads of labour votes since given ERG holdouts even if the DUP climb down, it's not just some labour voted they need, its potentially a couple dozen at least.AlastairMeeks said:
If there is indeed an MV3 it could only pass with some Labour votes. Right now the government should be putting energy into courting them. If it is, it’s invisible.CarlottaVance said:The Sun says:
IT is surely now obvious to Tory Brexiteers that defeating Theresa May’s deal again will be a disastrous act of self-harm.
Some are waking up to it. Too many are holding out for something better.
It’s not coming.
Mrs May’s shock victories last night leave her battered agreement as still somehow the only viable option, even if she has been humiliatingly reduced to asking the EU for a short delay.
Kill it again next week and that’s it.
The PM will be ordered to beg a long delay, swallowing any conditions Brussels wants to impose.
Remainer MPs will take back control, as they failed to do last night by only two votes, and Tory support will collapse.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8641594/theresa-may-brexit-deal-self-harm/
Will even the most Bone-headed ERG members get it?0 -
Star wars fans, the really intense ones, are completely bonkers.AlastairMeeks said:To lighten the mood a little on this grim morning:
https://twitter.com/ememess/status/11063357061741158420 -
"Oh for crying out loud, are leavers still whinging about the EU?" the sane amongst us could have asked for decades.kle4 said:Oh for crying out loud people are still whinging about being embarrassed? As a nation we really do need to grow up and allow ourselves to have serious and divisive political debates without worrying that satirists and diplomats get chuckles out of it.
Better that unfortunate aspect than the implied alternative, where we dont confront our serious political divisions because what might others think, oh no. Diplomatic relations recover quickly once resolution is finally occurred, to do otherwise would be stupid of them.
The problem is not that our political debate is divided: it is that our politics is borken. There are massive issues facing the country going forward, and for over two years our political system has been obsessing with the EU.
Brexit has consumed our politics, and not to our advantage.
And yes, it is embarrassing.0 -
I agree. Maybe 25 at a stretch? But labour are key.AlastairMeeks said:
I don't think the ERG holdouts can be got below 30. They're mad as hell and some of them have been far too committal to climb down now.kle4 said:
It seems to be focusing all its energies on begging to the DUP on the not unreasonable grounds that that will likely get a bunch more Tory votes too and maybe even a few labour ones. But they should be doing both or going full soft Brexit to seek loads of labour votes since given ERG holdouts even if the DUP climb down, it's not just some labour voted they need, its potentially a couple dozen at least.AlastairMeeks said:
If there is indeed an MV3 it could only pass with some Labour votes. Right now the government should be putting energy into courting them. If it is, it’s invisible.CarlottaVance said:The Sun says:
IT is surely now obvious to Tory Brexiteers that defeating Theresa May’s deal again will be a disastrous act of self-harm.
Some are waking up to it. Too many are holding out for something better.
It’s not coming.
Mrs May’s shock victories last night leave her battered agreement as still somehow the only viable option, even if she has been humiliatingly reduced to asking the EU for a short delay.
Kill it again next week and that’s it.
The PM will be ordered to beg a long delay, swallowing any conditions Brussels wants to impose.
Remainer MPs will take back control, as they failed to do last night by only two votes, and Tory support will collapse.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8641594/theresa-may-brexit-deal-self-harm/
Will even the most Bone-headed ERG members get it?
Maybe that's the plan - get dup for mv3 then work on labour for mv4. It's just crazy enough to not work.0 -
I agree with that.AlastairMeeks said:
I don't think the ERG holdouts can be got below 30. They're mad as hell and some of them have been far too committal to climb down now.kle4 said:
It seems to be focusing all its energies on begging to the DUP on the not unreasonable grounds that that will likely get a bunch more Tory votes too and maybe even a few labour ones. But they should be doing both or going full soft Brexit to seek loads of labour votes since given ERG holdouts even if the DUP climb down, it's not just some labour voted they need, its potentially a couple dozen at least.AlastairMeeks said:
If there is indeed an MV3 it could only pass with some Labour votes. Right now the government should be putting energy into courting them. If it is, it’s invisible.CarlottaVance said:The Sun says:
IT is surely now obvious to Tory Brexiteers that defeating Theresa May’s deal again will be a disastrous act of self-harm.
Some are waking up to it. Too many are holding out for something better.
It’s not coming.
Mrs May’s shock victories last night leave her battered agreement as still somehow the only viable option, even if she has been humiliatingly reduced to asking the EU for a short delay.
Kill it again next week and that’s it.
The PM will be ordered to beg a long delay, swallowing any conditions Brussels wants to impose.
Remainer MPs will take back control, as they failed to do last night by only two votes, and Tory support will collapse.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8641594/theresa-may-brexit-deal-self-harm/
Will even the most Bone-headed ERG members get it?0 -
The real problem is FPTP which allows extremists to sit in safe seat without any incentive to compromise.Alanbrooke said:
Parliament not functioning is due to a combination ofJosiasJessop said:
It isn't working. It really isn't.CarlottaVance said:The EU has refused to negotiate our future relationship until we have left.
Mrs May's 'red lines' are about that future relationship - which hasn't been negotiated yet.
Simon Jenkins suggestions are about the future relationship and have nothing to do with the Withdrawal Agreement - which is about settling accounts, creating a transition phase to negotiate that future relationship, AND a 'Backstop' necessitated by the EU's refusal to negotiate a future relationship before we've left - which may well sink the whole deal.
Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?
Its not pretty, but, after a fashion, its working - this is a feature, not a bug.
"Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?"
I wrote a section earlier and then deleted it, stating how history might show May with some credit in this mess. It's not her mess, whatever PB's self-proclaimed master negotiators say. She's tried damned hard to get a deal (which many on here said she wouldn't get) - and one that is acceptable to many leavers on here. She's tried to sell it.
The problem is that parliament is not functioning; it has utterly broken down. Too few are willing to make the compromises a working democracy requires.
FTPA which can produce zombie governments
Mays botched election scewing up the Parliamentary numbers
The FTPA has to go as it removes the sanction of losing power from government MPs so they can be as mad as a box of frogs and face no downside
May will also have to go as she cant lead a government post Brexit
0 -
Much less Polynesian certainly, and when I was there Christchurch was more Anglo Saxon than any other place I have lived, hardly any celts even. Nonetheless Christchurch had some vicious bikie gangs that would attack each other fairly frequently, and quite an active drug culture, mostly abused prescription drugs, a problem for us in the Emergency Dept.SouthamObserver said:
The South Island is very different to the North Island in that regardFoxy said:
Up to a point that is true, but like Australia it is very urbanised, with all the problems of city life anywhere. This film set in South Auckland shows some of the violent gang culture, but it could even be found in quite small towns.Casino_Royale said:
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.
https://youtu.be/N0-Q3ChKcfE0 -
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1106336166201176064MarqueeMark said:
If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.
0 -
Believing your opponent is just being opportunistic or doesn't really understand what they are doing is a crutch we all use from time to time, it is scary that legislators actually believe it is always true and theres no chance even those taking what might appear a stupid position believe what they say.Jonathan said:
People seem stuck in the notion that voting against the deal is just a political game and they will come good. It’s rejected on principle, people believe it is what is bad for the country. They are not playing games and are unlikely to change.MarqueeMark said:
If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.
And Labour is going to be in the firing line. People KNOW that Labour is playing games over Brexit. This is not a win for them - as their slide in the polls shows.
It doesn't have to be that way. There is a huge opportunity for Corbyn to come across as the statesman. He can make the cheap political point that the Conservative Party is "hopelessly split". He can make the cheap political point that May's Deal is shit. But then he could say these two have combined to give us a country that is struggling to find a way through Brexit. This Government has brought us to the cliff edge. However, in the national interest, he will not oppose a call for MV3. And so as to bring an end to the damaging uncertainty the UK faces, to save jobs, to save the economy, to stop small factions having a stranglehold over the government of this country, he will instruct his party to abstain on MV3. If May's Deal falls, if Brexit fails, it will not be down to the Labour Party.......0 -
Which lucky party has got shot of him?AndyJS said:Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.
0 -
No surprise there, some form of CU and SM BINO in return for extension is likelyCarlottaVance said:0 -
I might have some sympathy for that view if Labour had a coherently different offering on Brexit.Jonathan said:
People seem stuck in the notion that voting against the deal is just a political game and they will come good. It’s rejected on principle, people believe it is what is bad for the country. They are not playing games and are unlikely to change.MarqueeMark said:
If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.
And Labour is going to be in the firing line. People KNOW that Labour is playing games over Brexit. This is not a win for them - as their slide in the polls shows.
It doesn't have to be that way. There is a huge opportunity for Corbyn to come across as the statesman. He can make the cheap political point that the Conservative Party is "hopelessly split". He can make the cheap political point that May's Deal is shit. But then he could say these two have combined to give us a country that is struggling to find a way through Brexit. This Government has brought us to the cliff edge. However, in the national interest, he will not oppose a call for MV3. And so as to bring an end to the damaging uncertainty the UK faces, to save jobs, to save the economy, to stop small factions having a stranglehold over the government of this country, he will instruct his party to abstain on MV3. If May's Deal falls, if Brexit fails, it will not be down to the Labour Party.......
They don't.0 -
Angry man ranting on the telly. Not a good look for Leave. We need a route to agreement, this is not it.CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1106336166201176064MarqueeMark said:
If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.
0 -
We are going through all this hassle and humiliation so we can (supposedly) obtain some trade deals. Brexiteers are still unable to provide a significant example of a business that wanted different deals from what we had with the EU.0
-
Wouldn't they still get elected under PR, just not as Conservatives?not_on_fire said:
The real problem is FPTP which allows extremists to sit in safe seat without any incentive to compromise.Alanbrooke said:
Parliament not functioning is due to a combination ofJosiasJessop said:
It isn't working. It really isn't.CarlottaVance said:The EU has refused to negotiate our future relationship until we have left.
Mrs May's 'red lines' are about that future relationship - which hasn't been negotiated yet.
Simon Jenkins suggestions are about the future relationship and have nothing to do with the Withdrawal Agreement - which is about settling accounts, creating a transition phase to negotiate that future relationship, AND a 'Backstop' necessitated by the EU's refusal to negotiate a future relationship before we've left - which may well sink the whole deal.
Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?
Its not pretty, but, after a fashion, its working - this is a feature, not a bug.
"Much as foreign commentators and politicians like to point and laugh, how many of their heads of government have been on their feet for 19 hours in recent weeks putting their case to the legislature?"
I wrote a section earlier and then deleted it, stating how history might show May with some credit in this mess. It's not her mess, whatever PB's self-proclaimed master negotiators say. She's tried damned hard to get a deal (which many on here said she wouldn't get) - and one that is acceptable to many leavers on here. She's tried to sell it.
The problem is that parliament is not functioning; it has utterly broken down. Too few are willing to make the compromises a working democracy requires.
FTPA which can produce zombie governments
Mays botched election scewing up the Parliamentary numbers
The FTPA has to go as it removes the sanction of losing power from government MPs so they can be as mad as a box of frogs and face no downside
May will also have to go as she cant lead a government post Brexit0 -
You’ll make no progress if you continue to be dismissive.MarqueeMark said:
I might have some sympathy for that view if Labour had a coherently different offering on Brexit.Jonathan said:
People seem stuck in the notion that voting against the deal is just a political game and they will come good. It’s rejected on principle, people believe it is what is bad for the country. They are not playing games and are unlikely to change.MarqueeMark said:
If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.
And Labour is going to be in the firing line. People KNOW that Labour is playing games over Brexit. This is not a win for them - as their slide in the polls shows.
It doesn't have to be that way. There is a huge opportunity for Corbyn to come across as the statesman. He can make the cheap political point that the Conservative Party is "hopelessly split". He can make the cheap political point that May's Deal is shit. But then he could say these two have combined to give us a country that is struggling to find a way through Brexit. This Government has brought us to the cliff edge. However, in the national interest, he will not oppose a call for MV3. And so as to bring an end to the damaging uncertainty the UK faces, to save jobs, to save the economy, to stop small factions having a stranglehold over the government of this country, he will instruct his party to abstain on MV3. If May's Deal falls, if Brexit fails, it will not be down to the Labour Party.......
They don't.0 -
If that’s a totally factual statement (and it looks like it is) then it’s fine.Charles said:
I thought air crash investigations were usually conducted in secret so they could reach conclusions without prejudging things ? There seems to be a lot of interim information being leakedCarlottaVance said:
It’s jumping to conclusions or motives that they don’t do.0 -
Indeed.El_Capitano said:
There’s quite a lot of racial and class tension, not just Maori/white but also resentment of Somali immigrants and so on. It is a lovely place but no idyll. (But then where is?)Casino_Royale said:
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.0 -
A Leave deal forced through by May by coercion and threats, without any real buy in by either MPs or electorate is highly likely to unravel swiftly afterwards. Certainly it will be very hard to move to the next stage. No Deal is in some ways preferrable, as it gives at least some certainty.JosiasJessop said:
"Oh for crying out loud, are leavers still whinging about the EU?" the sane amongst us could have asked for decades.kle4 said:Oh for crying out loud people are still whinging about being embarrassed? As a nation we really do need to grow up and allow ourselves to have serious and divisive political debates without worrying that satirists and diplomats get chuckles out of it.
Better that unfortunate aspect than the implied alternative, where we dont confront our serious political divisions because what might others think, oh no. Diplomatic relations recover quickly once resolution is finally occurred, to do otherwise would be stupid of them.
The problem is not that our political debate is divided: it is that our politics is borken. There are massive issues facing the country going forward, and for over two years our political system has been obsessing with the EU.
Brexit has consumed our politics, and not to our advantage.
And yes, it is embarrassing.0 -
The one thing that makes me keep reluctantlty returning to No Deal as possibly the way to go now is the notion that we will NEVER get to the point where we can do a trade deal with this EU. But we are paying £39 billion to discover if my fears are well founded....SouthamObserver said:
It’s pretty clear that there is no way on earth a future relationship could have been negotiated in two years. If we had tried we’d be in exactly the place we are now for exactly the same reasons.CarlottaVance said:
The backstop is about the future relationship - which the EU have refused to negotiate.SouthamObserver said:
The backstop is all about Theresa May’s red lines.CarlottaVance said:
The sensible compromise is clear: soft Brexit. It is variously codenamed common market 2.0, or Norway, or customs union, or EEA. Under it, Britain leaves the EU but remains in Europe’s wider economic zone. Such an off-the-shelf package is known to be acceptable to Brussels. It respects the pleas of industry and commerce not to wreck Britain’s continental trade for pie-in-the-sky “deals with the rest of the world”.IanB2 said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/brexit-option-compromise-referendum-vote-theresa-may-labour
It is no longer only May and her deal that are on trial. So too is the House of Commons, and whether it is any longer a useful adjunct to responsible government. When Britain is out of this mess, parliament must reform. It should use its impending exile from the Palace of Westminster to galvanise its future as a legislature. It should leave London for a while and immerse itself in the provinces. It should find a voting system that better reflects popular opinion. The bloated House of Lords should be replaced. A fairer balance is needed between England and the UK’s other nations.
Only then will this farrago have served some purpose. As it is, Britain must this weekend await enough MPs with the guts to cross the bridge of compromise. Nothing else will do.
Possibly so.
But whats that got to do with the WA?
It's a matter for the "Political Declaration" which can easily be revisited once we have left.
If even someone like Jenkins is as clueless on this, why are we surprised MPs are too?
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The obvious play.CarlottaVance said:
Pincer movement on May from both sides of the channel, with the ERG stabbing her in the back at the same time.0 -
Tyndall finally loses his tenuous grip on reality.Richard_Tyndall said:
Civil War it is then.HYUFD said:
Portillo said on This Week he expects the Commons to narrowly vote to revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit if no extension grantedRichard_Tyndall said:
It is not that it is the law. It is that it is part of a treaty we signed up to under Gordon Brown and over which we have no power. There is no 'law' to change. If we do not come up with an alternative - a deal, revoke or extend - then we will be leaving no matter how many laws we pass.dixiedean said:
We leave on March 29, it's the law became a mantra. Repeated endlessly until absorbed in the heart.Sean_F said:I see that even on UKIP Home, support for the WA has doubled to 40%. It seems that some people are starting to think "Gosh, I never realised that voting against Brexit could stop Brexit from happening."
That the law can be changed, even on matters of religious faith, seems to be a surprise .
It is sad that this late in the day this still has to be explained. Voting to reject No Deal achieves nothing. We have now perhaps got a temporary respite if the EU deign to agree an extension but otherwise we accept the deal or we revoke. They are the only ways to avoid No Deal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb82v7wh1Fw0 -
Usually they’re pretty quick at making interim statements, if something potentially significant to other aircraft might be the cause (as is clearly the case here).Charles said:
I thought air crash investigations were usually conducted in secret so they could reach conclusions without prejudging things ? There seems to be a lot of interim information being leakedCarlottaVance said:
On the other hand, it could just be a case of ‘Welcome to Africa’.0 -
That'd be more compelling if so called brexiteers were not saying remaining is fine.CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1106336166201176064MarqueeMark said:
If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.0 -
Interesting. We have family in the Wellington outer suburbs and it’s a fairly big issue there. Maybe it’s localised?asjohnstone said:
surprised you'd say that because I've lived in NZ for 14 years and I've never heard of Somali immigrants let alone resentment of them, although I understand that there are issue in Melbourne.El_Capitano said:
There’s quite a lot of racial and class tension, not just Maori/white but also resentment of Somali immigrants and so on. It is a lovely place but no idyll. (But then where is?)Casino_Royale said:
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.0 -
If it is no different, then why doesnt May support Corbyns plan?MarqueeMark said:
I might have some sympathy for that view if Labour had a coherently different offering on Brexit.Jonathan said:
People seem stuck in the notion that voting against the deal is just a political game and they will come good. It’s rejected on principle, people believe it is what is bad for the country. They are not playing games and are unlikely to change.MarqueeMark said:
If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.
And Labour is going to be in the firing line. People KNOW that Labour is playing games over Brexit. This is not a win for them - as their slide in the polls shows.
It doesn't have to be that way. There is a huge opportunity for Corbyn to come across as the statesman. He can make the cheap political point that the Conservative Party is "hopelessly split". He can make the cheap political point that May's Deal is shit. But then he could say these two have combined to give us a country that is struggling to find a way through Brexit. This Government has brought us to the cliff edge. However, in the national interest, he will not oppose a call for MV3. And so as to bring an end to the damaging uncertainty the UK faces, to save jobs, to save the economy, to stop small factions having a stranglehold over the government of this country, he will instruct his party to abstain on MV3. If May's Deal falls, if Brexit fails, it will not be down to the Labour Party.......
They don't.0 -
The point was politics gets embarrassing sometimes and that seems more worrying to people than it being broken. After all they lead with hiw embarrassing it is. We do need to get past this EU issue. We also need to stop being worried to tackle issues because its embarrassing. It is not either or - I too think we should remain now, but is just silly how many people open with being embarrassed as a reason to do or not to things.JosiasJessop said:
"Oh for crying out loud, are leavers still whinging about the EU?" the sane amongst us could have asked for decades.kle4 said:Oh for crying out loud people are still whinging about being embarrassed? As a nation we really do need to grow up and allow ourselves to have serious and divisive political debates without worrying that satirists and diplomats get chuckles out of it.
Better that unfortunate aspect than the implied alternative, where we dont confront our serious political divisions because what might others think, oh no. Diplomatic relations recover quickly once resolution is finally occurred, to do otherwise would be stupid of them.
The problem is not that our political debate is divided: it is that our politics is borken. There are massive issues facing the country going forward, and for over two years our political system has been obsessing with the EU.
Brexit has consumed our politics, and not to our advantage.
And yes, it is embarrassing.
If revoke is in our best interests we should do it even though its humiliating. It leaving is on our best interests we should do it even though others laugh at us. I dont know why people prioritise their embarrassment.
And it is prioritised as people dont stop banging on about it and what others think.0 -
Our family has great affection for New Zealand and especially Christchurch where our eldest son emigrated to 15 years ago and we have visited several times. Though our eldest son now lives in Vancouver he retains ties with friends and ex work colleagues there.
This attack is evil in it's purest form and we need as a Country, especially in light of Brexit, to make a concerted effort to bring all our communities together in total condemnation of all intolerance
I posted this on my facebook page this morning and know PB forum will join in our condolences and sympathy to all Kiwis
To all Kiwis
We have woken up to the horrific attacks in Christchurch and just cannot believe it. Tears are shed for that beautiful City, it's people and the whole Country. Such hatred is beyond belief and we must alll stand against the bigotted and twisted minds of those who think like this. May the Good Lord comfort all those affected and our prayers are for all Kiwis everywhere.0 -
Absolutely. New Zealand is a wonderful country but there was a post on a thread here lauding it as a near utopia (compared to the UK and, IIRC, California) but nowhere can live up to those expectations. All countries have their own problems, different problems to ours, maybe similar in some respects, but it’s unfair on anywhere to hold it up to a mirror of its own supposed perfection.El_Capitano said:
There’s quite a lot of racial and class tension, not just Maori/white but also resentment of Somali immigrants and so on. It is a lovely place but no idyll. (But then where is?)Casino_Royale said:
That’s interesting.Foxy said:
I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.ydoethur said:
When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.SouthamObserver said:Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.
There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.
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I wouldn't say MP's lied. The world moved on.CD13 said:Mr Cole,
MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.
But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.
"It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.
What did Supermac say was the great problem in politics "event, dear boy, events!'0 -
F1: pre-qualifying ramble is up:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2019/03/australia-pre-qualifying-2019.html0