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  • TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brexit was always going to be very difficult for Jeremy Corbyn. He hasn't helped himself. He still isn't helping himself.

    The tin-eared response to the defections isn't going to improve his ratings either. Labelling accusations of anti-Semitism as opportunistic and politically-motivated looks terrible to most people when they can be illustrated so abundantly with examples.

    But politically astute. Who cares about a few hundred thousand jews? Where are they the swing factor in a marginal?
    In yesterday's Times Dominic Lawson reports something said by the Chairman of the Jewish Leadership Council, who met Corbyn at the meeting arranged last year to try and repair relations. He was told by someone close to the leadership that "they were convinced the perception of anti-semitism would play well for them electorally, that the Jews were part of the 'few' and, as oppressors, deserved no protection". The Chairman thought that crazy but, it was reported "as this awful saga drags on and on, maybe that person was right after all."

    Who knows. But there does certainly seem to be a strain of Far Left thinking which views Jews as rich, white, capitalist oppressors and therefore not a group against anyone can, a fortiori, be racist. If that is how you view the world, easy to see how anti-semitism develops unchecked and very hard to see how you can stop it as it would involve more than not saying horrible things to or about Jews but changing your whole political views.
    I thought Lansman (bonkers "Cons members are old hence not on social media hence not as visibly racist" line aside) was relatively sensible this morning on R4. But he had no response to Jezza's support for the Islington mural. And indeed it is difficult to see anything other than anti-semitism in that episode and as @ralphmalph has noted, there are sound politically advantageous reasons for such anti-semitism.

    Although I'm sure @TheJezziah will explain to us exactly why this is not so.
    I think the mural episode was/is the strongest evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic. No-one with an ounce of political perspective could not look at that and not realise it was depicting stereotypical Jews. I don't think even Mr 2Es is that stupid!
  • eekeek Posts: 15,821

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    As Gardenwalker puts it though, a 21 month extension doesn't do anything except allow us to faff around some more.

    There is no scheduled UK General Election during this period, and a 2nd Referendum is far from certain. Giving us 21 more months could produce nothing.

    Whilst I voted Leave, still support Leave and would prefer a softish EEA leave position, I realise that just giving us 21 months, no questions asked is rubbish. If they agree an extension they need to do it with a string attached. Either a 2nd Referendum during this period (though what would that question be?) or more likely a General Election to try and break the logjam in Parliament.

    And I'd dread to think what would happen in the EU Parliamentary elections in May.
    I can see the Brexit party doing well but the Tories and Labour will need to have a consistent policy which is going to be impossible for them.

    Who your typical Remain voter votes for is an impossible question with TIG not being organised yet do you just vote Lib Dem?
    It feels like an opportunity to dry-run an alliance with the LibDems. The LibDem brand is death so wouldn't they rather run as No Brexit, even if they have to split the seats with TIG? Getting some MEPs would give TIG some much-needed money and organizational heft.
    Thinking a bit more it's possible that TIG would win all the seats. To most people a Euro election would just be a proxy for a Referendum but there would be multiple parties on the leave side against what I suspect would be a single Remain party.
    That would be fun but sadly the voting system used in the Euros is non-retarded.
    Grrr forgot that it used a proportional vote system. I still suspect any Non-Brexit party would walk away with 45%+ of the total vote...
    I don't think I'd go that far but I could see something like:

    Conservative: 25%
    Labour: 20%
    Brexit Party: 25%
    Brexit isn't very good alliance: 30%
    The reason for my percentages is that any EU Parliament election is a proxy for the referendum and for Remain supportors it would be seen as just that. Why would they support their usual party (Tory / Labour) if they want to remain in the EU - remain voters wouldn't they would actively vote for the Remain party in protest.

    So I would expect the Remain party to be far higher in the polls, with the other parties (Brexit, Tories, Labour) splitting 55-60% between them.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,984
    edited February 2019

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brexit was always going to be very difficult for Jeremy Corbyn. He hasn't helped himself. He still isn't helping himself.

    The tin-eared response to the defections isn't going to improve his ratings either. Labelling accusations of anti-Semitism as opportunistic and politically-motivated looks terrible to most people when they can be illustrated so abundantly with examples.

    But politically astute. Who cares about a few hundred thousand jews? Where are they the swing factor in a marginal?
    In yesterday's Times Dominic Lawson reports something said by the Chairman of the Jewish Leadership Council, who met Corbyn at the meeting arranged last year to try and repair relations. He was told by someone close to the leadership that "they were convinced the perception of anti-semitism would play well for them electorally, that the Jews were part of the 'few' and, as oppressors, deserved no protection". The Chairman thought that crazy but, it was reported "as this awful saga drags on and on, maybe that person was right after all."

    Who knows. But there does certainly seem to be a strain of Far Left thinking which views Jews as rich, white, capitalist oppressors and therefore not a group against anyone can, a fortiori, be racist. If that is how you view the world, easy to see how anti-semitism develops unchecked and very hard to see how you can stop it as it would involve more than not saying horrible things to or about Jews but changing your whole political views.
    The other part of the conspiracy being all these people who I assume must then pretend to be against Corbyn helping spread the message blaming Corbyn for anti semitism because they want the left to succeed. Here was me thinking the likes of the Mail and the Sun were enemies...
    Why did Corbyn support that mural?
    Sticking with the conspiracy theory posited by Cyclefree earlier then presumably he mentioned another piece of graffiti and commented about that also getting washed away / destroyed as part of some long term plot where his allies in the RW media would bring this to wider attention accusing him of AS to win Corbyn votes.
    Yeah interesting answer.

    Please answer the question: why did he support the Islington mural?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638

    It doesn't matter if Labour's BINO plan can be negotiated. It isn't what we voted for. Next.

    Yes it is. We leave the EU. All else is just an agreement between us and the EU. You don’t get to define what “we” voted beyond what was on the ballot paper - leaving the EU.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,984
    DavidL said:

    We seemed to get a series of polls over the weekend showing Labour was suddenly about 8% behind the Tories who, though not exactly rocketing away, are holding their ground. Mike puts a lot of emphasis on the leader ratings and it seems to me likely that the trend shown in the thread header has led to the change in voting preferences.

    Corbyn had poor ratings before the 2017 campaign where he picked up a good deal whilst May collapsed in the opposite direction. Whilst this could in theory happen again it seems to me that the anti-Semitism and his attitude to the Tiggers along with his equivocation on Brexit has damaged him far more than the disgraceful history with the IRA, Hamas and sundry other terrorists ever did. I think if Labour want to close the polling gap and take the lead they need a new leader.

    And in other news, the pope....
  • DavidL said:

    We seemed to get a series of polls over the weekend showing Labour was suddenly about 8% behind the Tories who, though not exactly rocketing away, are holding their ground. Mike puts a lot of emphasis on the leader ratings and it seems to me likely that the trend shown in the thread header has led to the change in voting preferences.

    Corbyn had poor ratings before the 2017 campaign where he picked up a good deal whilst May collapsed in the opposite direction. Whilst this could in theory happen again it seems to me that the anti-Semitism and his attitude to the Tiggers along with his equivocation on Brexit has damaged him far more than the disgraceful history with the IRA, Hamas and sundry other terrorists ever did. I think if Labour want to close the polling gap and take the lead they need a new leader.

    Couldn't disagree more.

    It seems to me to be patently clear that this is all a grand conspiracy. Corbyn is beloved and people just don't realise it yet. Labour need to hang on to Corbyn until 10pm on election night where the opinion polls will all be shown to have been a vast right wing conspiracy against the Dear Leader

    ;)
  • Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450

    Chris said:

    The Bangladeshi lawyer and prime-ministerial aide Shah Ali Farhad sets out his arguments that Shamima Begun is not a Bangladeshi citizen here:
    https://www.dhakatribune.com/opinion/op-ed/2019/02/24/shamima-begum-is-not-a-bangladeshi-citizen

    His arguments seem a right old muddle to me.

    Is that a legal opinion or a political one? Politics might prove more important.
    I mean his legal arguments seem a muddle to me.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brexit was always going to be very difficult for Jeremy Corbyn. He hasn't helped himself. He still isn't helping himselfc and politically-motivated looks terrible to most people when they can be illustrated so abundantly with examples.

    But politically astute. Who cares about a few hundred thousand jews? Where are they the swing factor in a marginal?
    In yesterday's Times Dominic Lawson reports something said by the Chairman of the.
    They suffer from
    Socrates is a coward
    It’s a Marxist interpretation of everything. You are either a victim or an oppresser. You stir this up with identity politics means that nuance gets lost. Muslims are victims, therefore they can’t be oppressors (examples of how this manifests itself has become unavoidably evident), and Jews who on paper would be textbook victims, having been so wholesale at a number of historical events still get weaved into the wealthy internationalists interfering with our national politics and fermenting unrest category.

    I had a twittter dispute the other day ( I know, I shouldn’t bother). It was a Corbynite from someone with the hashtags forthemanynotthefew and gtto:

    “Well the Tories want us to crash out with no deal. Thats been the ERGs plan from the start. Lexit gives us opportunities that we can have in a neoliberal Europe.. I voted remain.. but Ive learned more since. Look at France under Macron.. now letting Netanyahu make policy“

    At no point was the conversation about Israel or Palestine. Just a conversation about Brexit.

    I pointed out that she was promoting a conspiracy that Israel and powerful jews are controlling the world. That there are 200 nations on earth, why the obsession with this one.

    “And its only a conspiracy if its not true.... Netanyahu is trying to control the Labour Party and wants it to stop supporting the human rights of ALL PEOPLE in the state of Israel.”


    I checked through her tweets. A little bit unhinged in the Corbyn love in, but certainly someone who would see themselves as anti prejudice, as someone willing to accept the whole concept of institutional racism etc etc. But here is her blind spot.

    Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic, criticising the prime minister of Israel is not anti Semitic. Believing a powerful group of Jews are attempting to interfere and control other nations, your nation and your party is. It’s a trope that’s gone around the world for thousands of years. Replaying the trope but replacing the word jew with the prime minister of the only Jewish state and cabal with the only Jewish nation pushes that really hard.

    To replay that over and over again is hard to see it as anything else.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638
    Chris said:

    The Bangladeshi lawyer and prime-ministerial aide Shah Ali Farhad sets out his arguments that Shamima Begun is not a Bangladeshi citizen here:
    https://www.dhakatribune.com/opinion/op-ed/2019/02/24/shamima-begum-is-not-a-bangladeshi-citizen

    His arguments seem a right old muddle to me.

    As I’ve said previously, there is a hell of a lot of impressive expertise in Bangladeshi Nationality Law on this forum.
  • DougSeal said:

    It doesn't matter if Labour's BINO plan can be negotiated. It isn't what we voted for. Next.

    Yes it is. We leave the EU. All else is just an agreement between us and the EU. You don’t get to define what “we” voted beyond what was on the ballot paper - leaving the EU.
    Yes and the Customs Union is part of the EU.

    Vote Leave made it clear we would leave the CU and that is the main thing that made me at least vote for Leave. The ability to sign our own trade deals was much debated during the referendum however much whining sore losers want to make it all just some vast racist conspiracy instead.
  • It doesn't matter if Labour's BINO plan can be negotiated. It isn't what we voted for. Next.

    It isn't what headbangers like you voted for, but how can you be sure of the rest of the gullible 52%? No, you cannot, because the level of detail you presume was not on the ballot paper.
  • TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brexit was always going to be very difficult for Jeremy Corbyn. He hasn't helped himself. He still isn't helping himself.

    The tin-eared response to the defections isn't going to improve his ratings either. Labelling accusations of anti-Semitism as opportunistic and politically-motivated looks terrible to most people when they can be illustrated so abundantly with examples.

    But politically astute. Who cares about a few hundred thousand jews? Where are they the swing factor in a marginal?
    In yesterday's Times Dominic Lawson reports something said by the Chairman of the Jewish Leadership Council, who met Corbyn at the meeting arranged last year to try and repair relations. He was told by someone close to the leadership that "they were convinced the perception of anti-semitism would play well for them electorally, that the Jews were part of the 'few' and, as oppressors, deserved no protection". The Chairman thought that crazy but, it was reported "as this awful saga drags on and on, maybe that person was right after all."

    Who knows. But there does certainly seem to be a strain of Far Left thinking which views Jews as rich, white, capitalist oppressors and therefore not a group against anyone can, a fortiori, be racist. If that is how you view the world, easy to see how anti-semitism develops unchecked and very hard to see how you can stop it as it would involve more than not saying horrible things to or about Jews but changing your whole political views.
    I thought Lansman (bonkers "Cons members are old hence not on social media hence not as visibly racist" line aside) was relatively sensible this morning on R4. But he had no response to Jezza's support for the Islington mural. And indeed it is difficult to see anything other than anti-semitism in that episode and as @ralphmalph has noted, there are sound politically advantageous reasons for such anti-semitism.

    Although I'm sure @TheJezziah will explain to us exactly why this is not so.
    I think the mural episode was/is the strongest evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic. No-one with an ounce of political perspective could not look at that and not realise it was depicting stereotypical Jews. I don't think even Mr 2Es is that stupid!
    No, the mural is not obviously antisemitic unless you are already familiar with antisemitic tropes.

    Corbyn's problem here is that the definition of antisemitism has changed to encompass the way he and his allies have always talked about Israel. That is why he can't just accept the IHRA definition.
  • I think the mural episode was/is the strongest evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic. No-one with an ounce of political perspective could not look at that and not realise it was depicting stereotypical Jews. I don't think even Mr 2Es is that stupid!

    Yes, quite so. Another pretty unambiguous indicator was the comment about not understanding English irony.

    Personally I think the 'for the many not the few' slogan is intrinsically sinister: it doesn't even pay lip service governing for the whole nation, but attempts to divide 'the people' from 'the few'. It's a classic trick of demagogues, and of course one which historically has been very much linked with anti-semitism.
  • Sorry for your loss Mr Herdson.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    There's a very clear outline of the legal issues surrounding the order to deprive Shamima Begum of British citizenship at the "Law and Lawyers" blog:
    http://obiterj.blogspot.com/2019/02/shamima-begum-and-law.html

    It concludes:
    "Given the obvious doubt over whether she holds any alternative citizenship it would appear that the deprivation order is probably unlawful. It is likely that this will be tested in the courts - very probably by SIAC."

    One thing I hadn't appreciated is that until 2002 the law didn't allow anyone who was British by birth to be deprived of their citizenship.
    Not quite. Prior to 1948 a woman marrying a foreigner lost her British citizenship automatically and immediately.
    Yes - people could deprive themselves of British citizenship by acquiring another citizenship, through marriage or naturalisation.
  • eek said:


    The reason for my percentages is that any EU Parliament election is a proxy for the referendum and for Remain supportors it would be seen as just that. Why would they support their usual party (Tory / Labour) if they want to remain in the EU - remain voters wouldn't they would actively vote for the Remain party in protest.

    So I would expect the Remain party to be far higher in the polls, with the other parties (Brexit, Tories, Labour) splitting 55-60% between them.

    I think there's something in that and the party brands are weakening but they haven't withered into nothing; And I think there's quite a significant portion of the voters who aren't actually that exercised by Brexit, and a decent proportion of them would vote even in this slightly weird election.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,176
    edited February 2019

    No, the mural is not obviously antisemitic unless you are already familiar with antisemitic tropes.

    You'd have to be quite spectacularly ignorant not to be. Especially for someone of Corbyn's age and of the extreme left, always referring back to the historical 'struggle'.

    What's more you don't even need to know about the historical parallels. Depicting a bunch of Jews playing Monopoly and counting their money on the backs of 'the many' is obviously a vile piece of anti-semitism however ignorant you are.
  • Mr JohnL, OK, lets face it, Corbyn is pretty thick, but he has been in politics a very long time. If he didn't recognise that the characters on that mural were meant to be Jewish then he needs to go to Specsavers.
  • It doesn't matter if Labour's BINO plan can be negotiated. It isn't what we voted for. Next.

    It isn't what headbangers like you voted for, but how can you be sure of the rest of the gullible 52%? No, you cannot, because the level of detail you presume was not on the ballot paper.
    I'm not speaking for everyone of the 52% but it was both in the Vote Leave pledges for if we left and the Tory and DUP manifestos which won a majority in the last election. So both in the referendum and in the last election leaving the CU was voted for.
  • I think the mural episode was/is the strongest evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic. No-one with an ounce of political perspective could not look at that and not realise it was depicting stereotypical Jews. I don't think even Mr 2Es is that stupid!

    Yes, quite so. Another pretty unambiguous indicator was the comment about not understanding English irony.

    Personally I think the 'for the many not the few' slogan is intrinsically sinister: it doesn't even pay lip service governing for the whole nation, but attempts to divide 'the people' from 'the few'. It's a classic trick of demagogues, and of course one which historically has been very much linked with anti-semitism.
    It's all the fault of the few.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,984
    edited February 2019

    No, the mural is not obviously antisemitic unless you are already familiar with antisemitic tropes.

    Corbyn's problem here is that the definition of antisemitism has changed to encompass the way he and his allies have always talked about Israel. That is why he can't just accept the IHRA definition.

    So you are saying either Jeremy didn't know what he has apparently spent his whole life campaigning against, or he is anti-semitic.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,478
    May's WA + Corbyn's CU is surely the correct way to leave the EU given the closeness of the result. The crucial part is the result of the referendum is honoured, in that as the question asked; the EU IS left !
    There should also be enough numbers for May loyalists + Corbyn loyalists also get an agreement through parliament I expect (Or at least enough prepared to follow the front bench whip).
    If there isn't enough numbers prepared to follow both front bench whips through then we'll have to have a GE with centrally forced deselections on both sides taking place.
  • Pulpstar said:

    May's WA + Corbyn's CU is surely the correct way to leave the EU given the closeness of the result. The crucial part is the result of the referendum is honoured, in that as the question asked; the EU IS left !
    There should also be enough numbers for May loyalists + Corbyn loyalists also get an agreement through parliament I expect (Or at least enough prepared to follow the front bench whip).
    If there isn't enough numbers prepared to follow both front bench whips through then we'll have to have a GE with centrally forced deselections on both sides taking place.

    How do the Corbyn loyalists know they'll really get their CU? TMay is notorious for saying whatever she needs to whoever she needs to say it to to get her through the day, so why wouldn't she just pocket their votes for the deal then go right back to whatever she was going to do in the first place?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406
    edited February 2019
    A customs union but not in the Single Market is absolutely bonkers Pulpstar. There is a reason there isn't a single developed nation that is in a customs union with the EU. Even Norway aren't silly enough to do that.

    If you're going to stay in a customs union you may as well remain. We debated this though and chose Leave.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    Sad news.

    Those who don't have pets can't appreciate how much of a family member they become. Unless you go for a Galapagos tortoise, they are all cursed with short lives, relative to ours. The pain of their ultimate loss is part of what you take on. But it doesn't make it any easier when you have to confront it.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:
    Not massively coherent. The solution to your conundrum is that the Mail and the Sun think that antisemitism is actually a net vote loser. Reports from Labour canvassers on the ground suggest that they are right about that, thank goodness.

    The ironic thing about all this is that if anti Semitism is Corbyn's downfall that will just prove to you that you were right about those pesky Jews all along.
    So everyone who doesn't like Corbyn thinks AS is a net vote loser but those who support Corbyn, or are part of the shadowy far left cabal around Corbyn mentioned in Cyclefrees conspiracy all think it is a vote winner...

    I don't like to rule out things completely, I'm an atheist who would be open to proof of a god, I can't actually prove we don't live in the matrix.

    But I just don't tend to believe things without proof, I can see why Cyclefrees conspiracy would be attractive to some on the right but it just doesn't seem very likely.

    Jews don't own the Sun and the Mail newspapers are not Jewish, most of their writers are not Jewish, Dan Hodges etc. are not If accusations of AS are Corbyn's downfall (which seems doubtful, they mostly preach to their already converted choir) then Jewish people are not the ones to blame.

    Given the level of Jewish involvement in momentum early on under its previous name then if you were to separate groups and attach blame/credit then Jewish people played a strong part in getting Corbyn to where he is. Although the idea of blaming or crediting Jewish people as a group for their actions relating to Corbyn makes no more sense than doing so with eye colour.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450
    edited February 2019
    DougSeal said:

    Chris said:

    The Bangladeshi lawyer and prime-ministerial aide Shah Ali Farhad sets out his arguments that Shamima Begun is not a Bangladeshi citizen here:
    https://www.dhakatribune.com/opinion/op-ed/2019/02/24/shamima-begum-is-not-a-bangladeshi-citizen

    His arguments seem a right old muddle to me.

    As I’ve said previously, there is a hell of a lot of impressive expertise in Bangladeshi Nationality Law on this forum.
    Does it not seem muddled to you?

    For example, take the bit where he actually quotes the statute, "if (a) the citizenship status results from the person’s naturalization", and then goes on to treat that as relevant to Shamina Begum's case, even though she is British-born, not naturalised?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    Looks a lovely cat. I'm a cat lover myself so I know how you feel.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,984

    So everyone who doesn't like Corbyn thinks AS is a net vote loser but those who support Corbyn, or are part of the shadowy far left cabal around Corbyn mentioned in Cyclefrees conspiracy all think it is a vote winner...

    I don't like to rule out things completely, I'm an atheist who would be open to proof of a god, I can't actually prove we don't live in the matrix.

    But I just don't tend to believe things without proof, I can see why Cyclefrees conspiracy would be attractive to some on the right but it just doesn't seem very likely.

    Jews don't own the Sun and the Mail newspapers are not Jewish, most of their writers are not Jewish, Dan Hodges etc. are not If accusations of AS are Corbyn's downfall (which seems doubtful, they mostly preach to their already converted choir) then Jewish people are not the ones to blame.

    Given the level of Jewish involvement in momentum early on under its previous name then if you were to separate groups and attach blame/credit then Jewish people played a strong part in getting Corbyn to where he is. Although the idea of blaming or crediting Jewish people as a group for their actions relating to Corbyn makes no more sense than doing so with eye colour.

    And the mural thing?
  • Sorry to hear that, Mr. Herdson.

    Lost a few dogs (old age, ran off when a firework exploded, dropped dead), and it's always shocking and strange, especially the first few days after.
  • TOPPING said:

    No, the mural is not obviously antisemitic unless you are already familiar with antisemitic tropes.

    Corbyn's problem here is that the definition of antisemitism has changed to encompass the way he and his allies have always talked about Israel. That is why he can't just accept the IHRA definition.

    So you are saying either Jeremy didn't know what he has apparently spent his whole life campaigning against, or he is anti-semitic.
    No.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526
    Scott_P said:
    If he wants to stop No Deal, the Dutch PM would be better employed having a "quiet word" with other EU leaders, rather than talking to the BBC....
  • DougSeal said:

    It doesn't matter if Labour's BINO plan can be negotiated. It isn't what we voted for. Next.

    Yes it is. We leave the EU. All else is just an agreement between us and the EU. You don’t get to define what “we” voted beyond what was on the ballot paper - leaving the EU.
    Yes and the Customs Union is part of the EU.

    Vote Leave made it clear we would leave the CU and that is the main thing that made me at least vote for Leave. The ability to sign our own trade deals was much debated during the referendum however much whining sore losers want to make it all just some vast racist conspiracy instead.
    Total shit as usual. Do you need me to post the "Norway" video again? A large number of Brexit advocates hoodwinked gullible people into thinking we could have Brexit and remain in the CU. The vast majority of people who voted for it didn't understand any of the detail either way. Most (probably including you) don't understand the difference between the ECJ and ECHR (go on.. look it up on Wiki), let alone what the Customs Union is.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,924
    edited February 2019
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brexit was always going to be very difficult for Jeremy Corbyn. He hasn't helped himself. He still isn't helping himself.

    The tin-eared response to the defections isn't going to improve his ratings either. Labelling accusations of anti-Semitism as opportunistic and politically-motivated looks terrible to most people when they can be illustrated so abundantly with examples.

    But politically astute. Who cares about a few hundred thousand jews? Where are they the swing factor in a marginal?
    In yesterday's Times Dominic Lawson reports something said by the Chairman of the Jewish Leadership Council, who met Corbyn at the meeting arranged last year to try and repair relations. He was told by someone close to the leadership that "they were convinced the perception of anti-semitism would play well for them electorally, that the Jews were part of the 'few' and, as oppressors, deserved no protection". The Chairman thought that crazy but, it was reported "as this awful saga drags on and on, maybe that person was right after all."

    Who knows. But there does certainly seem to be a strain of Far Left thinking which views Jews as rich, white, capitalist oppressors and therefore not a group against anyone can, a fortiori, be racist. If that is how you view the world, easy to see how anti-semitism develops unchecked and very hard to see how you can stop it as it would involve more than not saying horrible things to or about Jews but changing your whole political views.
    I thought Lansman (bonkers "Cons members are old hence not on social media hence not as visibly racist" line aside) was relatively sensible this morning on R4. But he had no response to Jezza's support for the Islington mural. And indeed it is difficult to see anything other than anti-semitism in that episode and as @ralphmalph has noted, there are sound politically advantageous reasons for such anti-semitism.

    Although I'm sure @TheJezziah will explain to us exactly why this is not so.

    Corbyn is a conviction anti-Semite. It’s not for electoral gain. There are few votes in it in Islington North and he was standing shoulder to shoulder with anti-Semites a long time before he became Labour leader.

  • DougSeal said:

    It doesn't matter if Labour's BINO plan can be negotiated. It isn't what we voted for. Next.

    Yes it is. We leave the EU. All else is just an agreement between us and the EU. You don’t get to define what “we” voted beyond what was on the ballot paper - leaving the EU.
    Yes and the Customs Union is part of the EU.

    Vote Leave made it clear we would leave the CU and that is the main thing that made me at least vote for Leave. The ability to sign our own trade deals was much debated during the referendum however much whining sore losers want to make it all just some vast racist conspiracy instead.
    Total shit as usual. Do you need me to post the "Norway" video again? A large number of Brexit advocates hoodwinked gullible people into thinking we could have Brexit and remain in the CU. The vast majority of people who voted for it didn't understand any of the detail either way. Most (probably including you) don't understand the difference between the ECJ and ECHR (go on.. look it up on Wiki), let alone what the Customs Union is.
    A Nigel Foreskin is spouting his garbage again. Crawl off you ignorant fuckwit.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    But politically astute. Who cares about a few hundred thousand jews? Where are they the swing factor in a marginal?
    In yesterday's Times Dominic Lawson reports something said by the Chairman of the Jewish Leadership Council, who met Corbyn at the meeting arranged last year to try and repair relations. He was told by someone close to the leadership that "they were convinced the perception of anti-semitism would play well for them electorally, that the Jews were part of the 'few' and, as oppressors, deserved no protection". The Chairman thought that crazy but, it was reported "as this awful saga drags on and on, maybe that person was right after all."

    Who knows. But there does certainly seem to be a strain of Far Left thinking which views Jews as rich, white, capitalist oppressors and therefore not a group against anyone can, a fortiori, be racist. If that is how you view the world, easy to see how anti-semitism develops unchecked and very hard to see how you can stop it as it would involve more than not saying horrible things to or about Jews but changing your whole political views.
    The other part of the conspiracy being all these people who I assume must then pretend to be against Corbyn helping spread the message blaming Corbyn for anti semitism because they want the left to succeed. Here was me thinking the likes of the Mail and the Sun were enemies...
    Why did Corbyn support that mural?
    Sticking with the conspiracy theory posited by Cyclefree earlier then presumably he mentioned another piece of graffiti and commented about that also getting washed away / destroyed as part of some long term plot where his allies in the RW media would bring this to wider attention accusing him of AS to win Corbyn votes.
    Yeah interesting answer.

    Please answer the question: why did he support the Islington mural?
    Nobody bar Corbyn and that would require him clearly remembering the event can answer that.

    I can give you the answer Corbyn gave if you want?

    I assume you've already heard it, also worth remembering his 'support'ive comment consisted of complaining about another piece of graffiti getting taken down...

    I mean I suppose he could have loved the thing because somebody was finally showing up the Jews (whilst the majority of the bad guys where white) for how evil they are, but he played it so subtly that only those who already hate Jezza can see it?
  • DougSeal said:

    It doesn't matter if Labour's BINO plan can be negotiated. It isn't what we voted for. Next.

    Yes it is. We leave the EU. All else is just an agreement between us and the EU. You don’t get to define what “we” voted beyond what was on the ballot paper - leaving the EU.
    Yes and the Customs Union is part of the EU.

    Vote Leave made it clear we would leave the CU and that is the main thing that made me at least vote for Leave. The ability to sign our own trade deals was much debated during the referendum however much whining sore losers want to make it all just some vast racist conspiracy instead.
    Total shit as usual. Do you need me to post the "Norway" video again? A large number of Brexit advocates hoodwinked gullible people into thinking we could have Brexit and remain in the CU. The vast majority of people who voted for it didn't understand any of the detail either way. Most (probably including you) don't understand the difference between the ECJ and ECHR (go on.. look it up on Wiki), let alone what the Customs Union is.
    Are you trolling or just genuinely that thick?

    Norway isn't in the Customs Union.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,984

    TOPPING said:

    No, the mural is not obviously antisemitic unless you are already familiar with antisemitic tropes.

    Corbyn's problem here is that the definition of antisemitism has changed to encompass the way he and his allies have always talked about Israel. That is why he can't just accept the IHRA definition.

    So you are saying either Jeremy didn't know what he has apparently spent his whole life campaigning against, or he is anti-semitic.
    No.
    You said: "the mural is not obviously antisemitic unless you are already familiar with antisemitic tropes. "

    So Jeremy is not familiar with antisemitic tropes. But...but...he has been campaigning against antisemitism his whole life. Surely he must have come across one or two antisemitic tropes during that time or else how could he have been campaigning against them?

    So, by all sense and logic, he *is* familiar with antisemitic tropes. And hence he supported the mural knowing it is an antisemitic trope.

    Don't mention it, happy to do the working in the margin for you.
  • Time to do some work, but not before I wish David Herdson condolences. Pets are often the embodiment of love. It is heart breaking when they go.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,984
    edited February 2019

    Nobody bar Corbyn and that would require him clearly remembering the event can answer that.

    I can give you the answer Corbyn gave if you want?

    I assume you've already heard it, also worth remembering his 'support'ive comment consisted of complaining about another piece of graffiti getting taken down...

    I mean I suppose he could have loved the thing because somebody was finally showing up the Jews (whilst the majority of the bad guys where white) for how evil they are, but he played it so subtly that only those who already hate Jezza can see it?

    Absolutely - he supported a graffiti artist whose mural was "offensive, [and] used antisemitic imagery". As described by the Labour Party. He said he should have looked more closely at it.

    And I suppose, just as you point out how those who dislike him are happy to gloss over any number of calumnies against him, so it is understandable that you believe him when he says that when he showed support for an antisemitic work, he didn't look at it closely enough before he did so.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406
    edited February 2019
    Personally I'd be ok with the Norway solution. It takes us out of the Customs Union and leaves us in the Single Market.

    The idea we should go out of the Single Market but remain in the Customs Union ... and the idea that is like Norway ... that is insane. That's like Norway in the same way as Corbyn is right wing, Russia is kn the West and Australia is in the North.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    Well I think we are well past the point where any of this makes any sense but are the EU seriously suggesting that the MPs have to vote for this sight unseen before the EU will agree it?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828

    I think the mural episode was/is the strongest evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic. No-one with an ounce of political perspective could not look at that and not realise it was depicting stereotypical Jews. I don't think even Mr 2Es is that stupid!

    Yes, quite so. Another pretty unambiguous indicator was the comment about not understanding English irony.

    Personally I think the 'for the many not the few' slogan is intrinsically sinister: it doesn't even pay lip service governing for the whole nation, but attempts to divide 'the people' from 'the few'. It's a classic trick of demagogues, and of course one which historically has been very much linked with anti-semitism.
    I always enjoy this line, usually from the types of people who think New Labour was the good Labour whereas current Labour is the bad Labour...

    That line was taken from the reworked clause 4 which was done under the leadership of one A. Blair.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/from-the-archive-blog/2015/apr/29/clause-four-labour-party-tony-blair-20-1995

    http://www.labourcounts.com/oldclausefour.htm

    I think the correct line is it was okay because that was Blair but OMG Corbyn said it, definitely anti semitic now.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    Aww, he looks cute. In my experience they always love a bit of sunbathing.

  • DavidL said:

    Well I think we are well past the point where any of this makes any sense but are the EU seriously suggesting that the MPs have to vote for this sight unseen before the EU will agree it?
    As I understand what Tom McTague is saying, the idea would be for the UK to propose a specific tweak to the wording or a codicil, and MPs would give approval to the deal subject to that wording being agreed by the EU27. (In practice of course they would already have agreed it informally). This would be the 'keyhole surgery' that was mooted a few days ago.

    More details in the full article:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-brexit-ultimatum-to-may-prove-you-have-parliaments-backing/
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,176
    edited February 2019

    I think the mural episode was/is the strongest evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic. No-one with an ounce of political perspective could not look at that and not realise it was depicting stereotypical Jews. I don't think even Mr 2Es is that stupid!

    Yes, quite so. Another pretty unambiguous indicator was the comment about not understanding English irony.

    Personally I think the 'for the many not the few' slogan is intrinsically sinister: it doesn't even pay lip service governing for the whole nation, but attempts to divide 'the people' from 'the few'. It's a classic trick of demagogues, and of course one which historically has been very much linked with anti-semitism.
    I always enjoy this line, usually from the types of people who think New Labour was the good Labour whereas current Labour is the bad Labour...

    That line was taken from the reworked clause 4 which was done under the leadership of one A. Blair.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/from-the-archive-blog/2015/apr/29/clause-four-labour-party-tony-blair-20-1995

    http://www.labourcounts.com/oldclausefour.htm

    I think the correct line is it was okay because that was Blair but OMG Corbyn said it, definitely anti semitic now.
    I know that of course. I don't think that make the slogan any more acceptable, especially since no-one in their right mind could argue that Blair was waging war on 'the few'. In addition in the Blair case the full quote is much less sinister and divisive:

    The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour, we achieve more than we achieve alone so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828
    TOPPING said:

    Nobody bar Corbyn and that would require him clearly remembering the event can answer that.

    I can give you the answer Corbyn gave if you want?

    I assume you've already heard it, also worth remembering his 'support'ive comment consisted of complaining about another piece of graffiti getting taken down...

    I mean I suppose he could have loved the thing because somebody was finally showing up the Jews (whilst the majority of the bad guys where white) for how evil they are, but he played it so subtly that only those who already hate Jezza can see it?

    Absolutely - he supported a graffiti artist whose mural was "offensive, [and] used antisemitic imagery". As described by the Labour Party. He said he should have looked more closely at it.

    And I suppose, just as you point out how those who dislike him are happy to gloss over any number of calumnies against him, so it is understandable that you believe him when he says that when he showed support for an antisemitic work, he didn't look at it closely enough before he did so.
    His 'support' of the artist mainly consisted of complaining about another piece of graffiti getting taken down. If this was a cause Corbyn was expected to support his response would have been considered falling well short.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    DavidL said:

    We seemed to get a series of polls over the weekend showing Labour was suddenly about 8% behind the Tories who, though not exactly rocketing away, are holding their ground. Mike puts a lot of emphasis on the leader ratings and it seems to me likely that the trend shown in the thread header has led to the change in voting preferences.

    Corbyn had poor ratings before the 2017 campaign where he picked up a good deal whilst May collapsed in the opposite direction. Whilst this could in theory happen again it seems to me that the anti-Semitism and his attitude to the Tiggers along with his equivocation on Brexit has damaged him far more than the disgraceful history with the IRA, Hamas and sundry other terrorists ever did. I think if Labour want to close the polling gap and take the lead they need a new leader.

    Maybe so - but Labour have had polling leads in recent weeks . The party was much further behind in late February 2017 in the aftermath of the Copeland by election.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828

    I think the mural episode was/is the strongest evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic. No-one with an ounce of political perspective could not look at that and not realise it was depicting stereotypical Jews. I don't think even Mr 2Es is that stupid!

    Yes, quite so. Another pretty unambiguous indicator was the comment about not understanding English irony.

    Personally I think the 'for the many not the few' slogan is intrinsically sinister: it doesn't even pay lip service governing for the whole nation, but attempts to divide 'the people' from 'the few'. It's a classic trick of demagogues, and of course one which historically has been very much linked with anti-semitism.
    I always enjoy this line, usually from the types of people who think New Labour was the good Labour whereas current Labour is the bad Labour...

    That line was taken from the reworked clause 4 which was done under the leadership of one A. Blair.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/from-the-archive-blog/2015/apr/29/clause-four-labour-party-tony-blair-20-1995

    http://www.labourcounts.com/oldclausefour.htm

    I think the correct line is it was okay because that was Blair but OMG Corbyn said it, definitely anti semitic now.
    I know that of course. I don't think that make the slogan any more acceptable, especially since no-one in their right mind could argue that Blair was waging war on 'the few'. In addition in the Blair case the full quote is more less sinister and divisive:

    The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour, we achieve more than we achieve alone so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.
    Yeah who could accuse Blair of waging war...

    So whether something is racist or not depends on how much you disagree with the person, interesting take...
  • This is incredible, if you've not seen it.

    https://twitter.com/BBCChrisMorris/status/1099823923418615815
  • Time to do some work, but not before I wish David Herdson condolences. Pets are often the embodiment of love. It is heart breaking when they go.

    This is indeed true. My wife said yesterday that she thinks we should stop insuring our older cat, which is around 14 now. it's about £40 per month, which I didn't know. She's in good health, but it's a sign that if something happens to her, we would probably let her go rather than fix it.
  • Yeah who could accuse Blair of waging war...

    So whether something is racist or not depends on how much you disagree with the person, interesting take...

    You've achieved a dizzying sequence of end-to-end non-sequiturs there...
  • DavidL said:

    Well I think we are well past the point where any of this makes any sense but are the EU seriously suggesting that the MPs have to vote for this sight unseen before the EU will agree it?
    As I understand what Tom McTague is saying, the idea would be for the UK to propose a specific tweak to the wording or a codicil, and MPs would give approval to the deal subject to that wording being agreed by the EU27. (In practice of course they would already have agreed it informally). This would be the 'keyhole surgery' that was mooted a few days ago.

    More details in the full article:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-brexit-ultimatum-to-may-prove-you-have-parliaments-backing/
    But what tweak would satisfy both the ERG/DUP and Ireland/the EU?

    The sanest solution would be a 2 year exit clause, which would put us back to where we were before we invoked A50.

    If the clause couldn't be invoked until the transition ends then we would be guaranteeing Ireland a minimum of 4 years to negotiate a permanent deal, and guaranteeing the ERG we can eventually take control even if it takes nearly a decade from the referendum.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 3,869

    I think the mural episode was/is the strongest evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic. No-one with an ounce of political perspective could not look at that and not realise it was depicting stereotypical Jews. I don't think even Mr 2Es is that stupid!

    Yes, quite so. Another pretty unambiguous indicator was the comment about not understanding English irony.

    Personally I think the 'for the many not the few' slogan is intrinsically sinister: it doesn't even pay lip service governing for the whole nation, but attempts to divide 'the people' from 'the few'. It's a classic trick of demagogues, and of course one which historically has been very much linked with anti-semitism.
    I always enjoy this line, usually from the types of people who think New Labour was the good Labour whereas current Labour is the bad Labour...

    That line was taken from the reworked clause 4 which was done under the leadership of one A. Blair.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/from-the-archive-blog/2015/apr/29/clause-four-labour-party-tony-blair-20-1995

    http://www.labourcounts.com/oldclausefour.htm

    I think the correct line is it was okay because that was Blair but OMG Corbyn said it, definitely anti semitic now.
    I know that of course. I don't think that make the slogan any more acceptable, especially since no-one in their right mind could argue that Blair was waging war on 'the few'. In addition in the Blair case the full quote is more less sinister and divisive:

    The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour, we achieve more than we achieve alone so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.
    Yeah who could accuse Blair of waging war...

    So whether something is racist or not depends on how much you disagree with the person, interesting take...
    Whether or not I believe something was meant as racist does indeed depend on the past track record of the person who said it. I disagree with most of what Tony Blair said. I'd never call him a racist.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,984
    edited February 2019

    TOPPING said:

    Nobody bar Corbyn and that would require him clearly remembering the event can answer that.

    I can give you the answer Corbyn gave if you want?

    I assume you've already heard it, also worth remembering his 'support'ive comment consisted of complaining about another piece of graffiti getting taken down...

    I mean I suppose he could have loved the thing because somebody was finally showing up the Jews (whilst the majority of the bad guys where white) for how evil they are, but he played it so subtly that only those who already hate Jezza can see it?

    Absolutely - he supported a graffiti artist whose mural was "offensive, [and] used antisemitic imagery". As described by the Labour Party. He said he should have looked more closely at it.

    And I suppose, just as you point out how those who dislike him are happy to gloss over any number of calumnies against him, so it is understandable that you believe him when he says that when he showed support for an antisemitic work, he didn't look at it closely enough before he did so.
    His 'support' of the artist mainly consisted of complaining about another piece of graffiti getting taken down. If this was a cause Corbyn was expected to support his response would have been considered falling well short.
    “Why? You are in good company. Rockerfeller [sic] destroyed Diego Viera’s [sic] mural because it includes a picture of Lenin.”

    Let's examine that "Why?" I take it to mean: "Why should you take down an antisemitic mural?"

    And then as you say, he goes on to compare the situation to another situation with another work of art.

    But that "Why?" remains. He believes that freedom of expression includes the right to be antisemitic.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,914
    We are now at the stage where it is impossible to tell if this is an equitable and practical proposal or flinging your shit at the wall level madness.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,232
    edited February 2019

    Time to do some work, but not before I wish David Herdson condolences. Pets are often the embodiment of love. It is heart breaking when they go.

    This is indeed true. My wife said yesterday that she thinks we should stop insuring our older cat, which is around 14 now. it's about £40 per month, which I didn't know. She's in good health, but it's a sign that if something happens to her, we would probably let her go rather than fix it.
    Our previous cat lived to 18 with quite a few complications (mainly a wee touch of the cancer as we say in Glasgow) for the last 3 years. He had a pretty good existence almost to the end, but the health insurance was certainly a boon.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    We are now at the stage where it is impossible to tell if this is an equitable and practical proposal or flinging your shit at the wall level madness.
    I wouldn't put it in quite those words, but, yes, you are right.
  • justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    We seemed to get a series of polls over the weekend showing Labour was suddenly about 8% behind the Tories who, though not exactly rocketing away, are holding their ground. Mike puts a lot of emphasis on the leader ratings and it seems to me likely that the trend shown in the thread header has led to the change in voting preferences.

    Corbyn had poor ratings before the 2017 campaign where he picked up a good deal whilst May collapsed in the opposite direction. Whilst this could in theory happen again it seems to me that the anti-Semitism and his attitude to the Tiggers along with his equivocation on Brexit has damaged him far more than the disgraceful history with the IRA, Hamas and sundry other terrorists ever did. I think if Labour want to close the polling gap and take the lead they need a new leader.

    Maybe so - but Labour have had polling leads in recent weeks . The party was much further behind in late February 2017 in the aftermath of the Copeland by election.
    Since the TIG defections, there've been eight GB polls, all of which have put the Tories between 4 and 12 points ahead, with median leads of 8% in TIG-included polls, and 7% in TIG-excluded ones.

    The Welsh barometer poll today tends to support a similar dynamic on a more local level.

    Obviously, that could all change and the capacity for Brexit itself, or secondary political effects coming from the Brexit process (more defections, resignations etc), could hit the Tories too, as could seriously screwing up the leadership contest, as and when it comes.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    We are now at the stage where it is impossible to tell if this is an equitable and practical proposal or flinging your shit at the wall level madness.
    3 years of relentless excremental wall rendering tends to sway one's suspicions in one direction though.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,914
    TOPPING said:



    And I suppose, just as you point out how those who dislike him are happy to gloss over any number of calumnies against him, so it is understandable that you believe him when he says that when he showed support for an antisemitic work, he didn't look at it closely enough before he did so.

    Corbyn is so fucking stupid he's not actually clever enough to be a structural anti-semite in the time honoured English tradition. He is, what Houston Stewart Chamberlain would have called, a redemptive anti-semite based on an incoherent and only partially comprehended set of values.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,493

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    Ah, what a splendid cat. Reminds me of our cat, Buster, who moved on to the great hearthrug in the sky this time last year after a long and eventful life. My condolences - the death of a beloved pet is heartbreaking.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    So sorry to hear that very sad news. I can empathise - having lost several cats in this way back in the 70s and 80s. I still regularly think of one cat which died in March 1972 falling victim to a neighbour's car. He was half human and a mere 22 months old. I still retain the chord of an old dressing gown which he enjoyed playing with.
    Last June - for the first time in adult life - I acquired two ginger boy kittens- now 10 months old. Still wary about letting them roam outdoors - but have concluded it would be cruel to do otherwise.
  • Time to do some work, but not before I wish David Herdson condolences. Pets are often the embodiment of love. It is heart breaking when they go.

    This is indeed true. My wife said yesterday that she thinks we should stop insuring our older cat, which is around 14 now. it's about £40 per month, which I didn't know. She's in good health, but it's a sign that if something happens to her, we would probably let her go rather than fix it.
    Our previous cat lived to 18 with quite a few complications (mainly a wee touch of the cancer as we say in Glasgow) for the last 3 years. He had a pretty good existence almost to the end, but the health insurance was certainly a boon.
    My old girls still very agile, and active when she wants to be, so we'll see.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450
    Seems to be suggesting the EU will agree an extension only if a withdrawal agreement passes the Commons by 29 March. The betting markets seem to be assuming the EU will agree an extension anyway.
  • Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    I'm really sorry to read this and I understand how you feel. I grew up on a farm which was on the bend of a very busy road and we, sadly, had cats hit by cars more than a couple of times over the years. It was always devastating.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,435
    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    So sorry to hear that very sad news. I can empathise - having lost several cats in this way back in the 70s and 80s. I still regularly think of one cat which died in March 1972 falling victim to a neighbour's car. He was half human and a mere 22 months old. I still retain the chord of an old dressing gown which he enjoyed playing with.
    Last June - for the first time in adult life - I acquired two ginger boy kittens- now 10 months old. Still wary about letting them roam outdoors - but have concluded it would be cruel to do otherwise.
    I'm so sorry to hear about David's cat - I've been there and know how much one misses them. Thank you for the lovely picture.

    Justin, FWIW my parents had cats throughout our time in flats (30 years), always house cats - they seemed very contented indeed and I'm not convinced that going outdoors is crucial for cat happiness. Until age 1 they did bound around energetically - we had one wall buttressthat one cat used to enjoy scaling and then sliding down, with interfesting effects on the wallpaper - and after that they just settled to a safe and loving environment.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,615
    edited February 2019
    Chris said:

    Seems to be suggesting the EU will agree an extension only if a withdrawal agreement passes the Commons by 29 March. The betting markets seem to be assuming the EU will agree an extension anyway.
    If you were going to agree a faffing-only extension it would make more sense to keep quiet about it until the British asked, because:
    1) A resolution is better, and you don't want to encourage faffing unless you're clear the alternative is the car crash
    2) If it looks like the EU is pushing it then that will feed conspiracy theories (eg see upthread)
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    We seemed to get a series of polls over the weekend showing Labour was suddenly about 8% behind the Tories who, though not exactly rocketing away, are holding their ground. Mike puts a lot of emphasis on the leader ratings and it seems to me likely that the trend shown in the thread header has led to the change in voting preferences.

    Corbyn had poor ratings before the 2017 campaign where he picked up a good deal whilst May collapsed in the opposite direction. Whilst this could in theory happen again it seems to me that the anti-Semitism and his attitude to the Tiggers along with his equivocation on Brexit has damaged him far more than the disgraceful history with the IRA, Hamas and sundry other terrorists ever did. I think if Labour want to close the polling gap and take the lead they need a new leader.

    Maybe so - but Labour have had polling leads in recent weeks . The party was much further behind in late February 2017 in the aftermath of the Copeland by election.
    Since the TIG defections, there've been eight GB polls, all of which have put the Tories between 4 and 12 points ahead, with median leads of 8% in TIG-included polls, and 7% in TIG-excluded ones.

    The Welsh barometer poll today tends to support a similar dynamic on a more local level.

    Obviously, that could all change and the capacity for Brexit itself, or secondary political effects coming from the Brexit process (more defections, resignations etc), could hit the Tories too, as could seriously screwing up the leadership contest, as and when it comes.
    That is all fair enough. Personally I am not inclined to pay much attention to polls which include groups which lack any formal existence as a political party. It is quite clear that the Tories are ahead at the moment - perhaps by circa 7%. The high Tory vote shares now being recorded are somewhat counterintuitive and may owe quite a lot to the controversy re- Begum the ISIS girl- and Javid's decision to bar her from returning to the UK. How long that wil last is unclear.
  • Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    David.

    My wife and I feel your pain. Until most recently we have always had cats and did foster cats when we were younger. At one time we 5 of our own and 9 fostered

    We have over the years suffered this pain but the consolation is the love and affection experienced and the enjoyment and fun you derived during their period with you

    I should comment that our love of cats and dogs, most recently through our children, has greatly enhanced our lives.

    My Father used to say the more you see of people the more you like your dog

    Best wishes
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,478

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    So sorry to hear that very sad news. I can empathise - having lost several cats in this way back in the 70s and 80s. I still regularly think of one cat which died in March 1972 falling victim to a neighbour's car. He was half human and a mere 22 months old. I still retain the chord of an old dressing gown which he enjoyed playing with.
    Last June - for the first time in adult life - I acquired two ginger boy kittens- now 10 months old. Still wary about letting them roam outdoors - but have concluded it would be cruel to do otherwise.
    I'm so sorry to hear about David's cat - I've been there and know how much one misses them. Thank you for the lovely picture.

    Justin, FWIW my parents had cats throughout our time in flats (30 years), always house cats - they seemed very contented indeed and I'm not convinced that going outdoors is crucial for cat happiness. Until age 1 they did bound around energetically - we had one wall buttressthat one cat used to enjoy scaling and then sliding down, with interfesting effects on the wallpaper - and after that they just settled to a safe and loving environment.
    If a cat has been raised as a housecat then it can continue to be brought up as such, but once acustomed to heading outdoors then it is cruel to deny them (And you tend to get an earful !) the pleasure.
    We have three; along with the rabbits, horses and fish.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,520

    Chris said:

    Seems to be suggesting the EU will agree an extension only if a withdrawal agreement passes the Commons by 29 March. The betting markets seem to be assuming the EU will agree an extension anyway.
    If you were going to agree a faffing-only extension it would make more sense to keep quiet about it until the British asked, because:
    1) A resolution is better, and you don't want to encourage faffing unless you're clear the alternative is the car crash
    2) If it looks like the EU is pushing it then that will feed conspiracy theories (eg see upthread)
    I'm still convinced the EU will agree a faffing extension if it comes to it; no deal is just too bad overall for them to say no and get all the blame.

    But I think this is another example of the EU getting the sequencing right. If the March 12th vote passes, T May has to come and ask for 2 months extension for the legislation to work through. All agreed.

    If it fails, T May has to come and ask for 21 months extension (or whatever) for a full renegotiation and 'consultation' within the UK. If she tries to ask for 2 months she'll be told it has to be far more, and will be totally boxed in.

    Very sneaky of the EU getting parliament to vote first. They are operating at such a smarter level than our leaden-footed approach.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,225
    edited February 2019

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    So sorry to hear that very sad news. I can empathise - having lost several cats in this way back in the 70s and 80s. I still regularly think of one cat which died in March 1972 falling victim to a neighbour's car. He was half human and a mere 22 months old. I still retain the chord of an old dressing gown which he enjoyed playing with.
    Last June - for the first time in adult life - I acquired two ginger boy kittens- now 10 months old. Still wary about letting them roam outdoors - but have concluded it would be cruel to do otherwise.
    I'm so sorry to hear about David's cat - I've been there and know how much one misses them. Thank you for the lovely picture.

    Justin, FWIW my parents had cats throughout our time in flats (30 years), always house cats - they seemed very contented indeed and I'm not convinced that going outdoors is crucial for cat happiness. Until age 1 they did bound around energetically - we had one wall buttressthat one cat used to enjoy scaling and then sliding down, with interfesting effects on the wallpaper - and after that they just settled to a safe and loving environment.
    We had a cat for many years; initially it had a large garden to wander about in land seemed happy enough, although it was a bit of a scaredy-cat. Then we moved house and it took ages before it would go outside for more than a few minutes and indeed never went out, even in the garden for very long. It's favourite haunt was up in the eves, and I was always worried that it would die there and I'd have to crawl along and find it. It didn't though.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Chris Morris

    That is lol funny!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450
    tpfkar said:

    Chris said:

    Seems to be suggesting the EU will agree an extension only if a withdrawal agreement passes the Commons by 29 March. The betting markets seem to be assuming the EU will agree an extension anyway.
    If you were going to agree a faffing-only extension it would make more sense to keep quiet about it until the British asked, because:
    1) A resolution is better, and you don't want to encourage faffing unless you're clear the alternative is the car crash
    2) If it looks like the EU is pushing it then that will feed conspiracy theories (eg see upthread)
    I'm still convinced the EU will agree a faffing extension if it comes to it; no deal is just too bad overall for them to say no and get all the blame.

    But I think this is another example of the EU getting the sequencing right. If the March 12th vote passes, T May has to come and ask for 2 months extension for the legislation to work through. All agreed.

    If it fails, T May has to come and ask for 21 months extension (or whatever) for a full renegotiation and 'consultation' within the UK. If she tries to ask for 2 months she'll be told it has to be far more, and will be totally boxed in.

    Very sneaky of the EU getting parliament to vote first. They are operating at such a smarter level than our leaden-footed approach.
    If MPs share your perception that the EU will approve an extension for no particular reason, I should think the chances of the agreement being passed on 12 March are close to zero.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    So sorry to hear that very sad news. I can empathise - having lost several cats in this way back in the 70s and 80s. I still regularly think of one cat which died in March 1972 falling victim to a neighbour's car. He was half human and a mere 22 months old. I still retain the chord of an old dressing gown which he enjoyed playing with.
    Last June - for the first time in adult life - I acquired two ginger boy kittens- now 10 months old. Still wary about letting them roam outdoors - but have concluded it would be cruel to do otherwise.
    I'm so sorry to hear about David's cat - I've been there and know how much one misses them. Thank you for the lovely picture.

    Justin, FWIW my parents had cats throughout our time in flats (30 years), always house cats - they seemed very contented indeed and I'm not convinced that going outdoors is crucial for cat happiness. Until age 1 they did bound around energetically - we had one wall buttressthat one cat used to enjoy scaling and then sliding down, with interfesting effects on the wallpaper - and after that they just settled to a safe and loving environment.
    Nick, Thanks for that. I am in a terraced house and have long introduced them to the garden. One in particular is keen to explore and sits by the door basically pleading to be allowed outside. I find it difficult to refuse - particularly in good sunny weather such as experienced over the weekend.
  • Summary of this weekend's Labour antics:

    https://twitter.com/gsoh31/status/1099985490646847488
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,875

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brexit was always going to be very difficult for Jeremy Corbyn. He hasn't helped himself. He still isn't helping himself.

    The tin-eared response to the defections isn't going to improve his ratings either. Labelling accusations of anti-Semitism as opportunistic and politically-motivated looks terrible to most people when they can be illustrated so abundantly with examples.

    But politically astute. Who cares about a few hundred thousand jews? Where are they the swing factor in a marginal?
    In yesterday's Times Dominic Lawson reports something said by the Chairman of the Jewish Leadership Council, who met Corbyn at the meeting arranged last year to try and repair relations. He was told by someone close to the leadership that "they were convinced the perception of anti-semitism would play well for them electorally, that the Jews were part of the 'few' and, as oppressors, deserved no protection". The Chairman thought that crazy but, it was reported "as this awful saga drags on and on, maybe that person was right after all."

    Who knows. But there does certainly seem to be a strain of Far Left thinking which views Jews as rich, white, capitalist oppressors and therefore not a group against anyone can, a fortiori, be racist. If that is how you view the world, easy to see how anti-semitism develops unchecked and very hard to see how you can stop it as it would involve more than not saying horrible things to or about Jews but changing your whole political views.
    The other part of the conspiracy being all these people who I assume must then pretend to be against Corbyn helping spread the message blaming Corbyn for anti semitism because they want the left to succeed. Here was me thinking the likes of the Mail and the Sun were enemies...
    Why did Corbyn support that mural?
    Sticking with the conspiracy theory posited by Cyclefree earlier then presumably he mentioned another piece of graffiti and commented about that also getting washed away / destroyed as part of some long term plot where his allies in the RW media would bring this to wider attention accusing him of AS to win Corbyn votes.
    It's not my conspiracy theory. I leave belief in conspiracy theories to idiots on the Far Left and Far Right.

    It's what was reported to the Chairman of the Jewish Leadership Council shortly before a meeting with Corbyn, by a Labour member, as reported in the Sunday Times. You can read the article here - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/yet-corbyn-still-thinks-he-is-our-leading-anti-racist-8fffhgrmf.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,520
    Chris said:

    tpfkar said:

    Chris said:

    Seems to be suggesting the EU will agree an extension only if a withdrawal agreement passes the Commons by 29 March. The betting markets seem to be assuming the EU will agree an extension anyway.
    If you were going to agree a faffing-only extension it would make more sense to keep quiet about it until the British asked, because:
    1) A resolution is better, and you don't want to encourage faffing unless you're clear the alternative is the car crash
    2) If it looks like the EU is pushing it then that will feed conspiracy theories (eg see upthread)
    I'm still convinced the EU will agree a faffing extension if it comes to it; no deal is just too bad overall for them to say no and get all the blame.

    But I think this is another example of the EU getting the sequencing right. If the March 12th vote passes, T May has to come and ask for 2 months extension for the legislation to work through. All agreed.

    If it fails, T May has to come and ask for 21 months extension (or whatever) for a full renegotiation and 'consultation' within the UK. If she tries to ask for 2 months she'll be told it has to be far more, and will be totally boxed in.

    Very sneaky of the EU getting parliament to vote first. They are operating at such a smarter level than our leaden-footed approach.
    If MPs share your perception that the EU will approve an extension for no particular reason, I should think the chances of the agreement being passed on 12 March are close to zero.
    I already think they are. Reckon the biggest defeat ever is being reversed due to a legal codicil, when 3 members of the Governing party have just quit on an anti-Brexit platform? More chance of the Labour party sponsoring this year's Eurovision....

  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    So sorry to hear that very sad news. I can empathise - having lost several cats in this way back in the 70s and 80s. I still regularly think of one cat which died in March 1972 falling victim to a neighbour's car. He was half human and a mere 22 months old. I still retain the chord of an old dressing gown which he enjoyed playing with.
    Last June - for the first time in adult life - I acquired two ginger boy kittens- now 10 months old. Still wary about letting them roam outdoors - but have concluded it would be cruel to do otherwise.
    I'm so sorry to hear about David's cat - I've been there and know how much one misses them. Thank you for the lovely picture.

    Justin, FWIW my parents had cats throughout our time in flats (30 years), always house cats - they seemed very contented indeed and I'm not convinced that going outdoors is crucial for cat happiness. Until age 1 they did bound around energetically - we had one wall buttressthat one cat used to enjoy scaling and then sliding down, with interfesting effects on the wallpaper - and after that they just settled to a safe and loving environment.
    Today’s sad circumstances notwithstanding, it is great to see so many cat lovers on PB. My cat is a young female and - as is typically the case with females of the species - she has a small range, only venturing a few hundred metres in any given direction. Thankfully, she has so far shown no interest in the road to the north, and prefers to range south and east, which are gardens and public open space.

    She gets very cross if we inadvertently restrict her access to anywhere, yet spends most of her days slumbering on the warmest, most heavily bedded areas in the house.

    I wonder if she had have been a house cat she would have been any less happy? For females at least, large ranges don’t seem necessary.

    But, it is interesting to debate.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    OK so I've been on this train for three and a half hours and I'm just about to get back to where I started.

    A parable for May's negotiations.

    NO The parable is Southern Trains, who went on endless strikes but eventually accepted reality.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,875

    No, the mural is not obviously antisemitic unless you are already familiar with antisemitic tropes.

    You'd have to be quite spectacularly ignorant not to be. Especially for someone of Corbyn's age and of the extreme left, always referring back to the historical 'struggle'.

    What's more you don't even need to know about the historical parallels. Depicting a bunch of Jews playing Monopoly and counting their money on the backs of 'the many' is obviously a vile piece of anti-semitism however ignorant you are.

    Even more so if your mother was at Cable Street (as Corbyn has claimed), fighting for Jews against Fascists, who used virtually identical anti-semitic tropes.

    He both claims to have imbibed his anti-racism through his mother's milk and, at the same time, seems not to know about or recognise pretty blatant and crude anti-semitic tropes. Or maybe he just says whatever he thinks will get him out of the particular hole he's dug himself into.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,775

    This is incredible, if you've not seen it.

    I presume you mean that someone openly contradicting Trump is incredible, Trump not knowing what he's talking about is absolutely not incredible.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,225
    _Anazina_ said:

    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic, the cat who's my avatar here died on Saturday after being hit by a car. he was a very special, lovable and characterful animal. I'll probably be a bit quiet on here for a day or so.

    Oh no David, that's terrible news :(
    Thanks for your comments, and kind thoughts. A bit of an indulgence but here he is (I've had to copy a tweet as I don't think you can post pictures directly):

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1099987893630783489
    So sorry to hear that very sad news. I can empathise - having lost several cats in this way back in the 70s and 80s. I still regularly think of one cat which died in March 1972 falling victim to a neighbour's car. He was half human and a mere 22 months old. I still retain the chord of an old dressing gown which he enjoyed playing with.
    Last June - for the first time in adult life - I acquired two ginger boy kittens- now 10 months old. Still wary about letting them roam outdoors - but have concluded it would be cruel to do otherwise.
    I'm so sorry to hear about David's cat - I've been there and know how much one misses them. Thank you for the lovely picture.

    Today’s sad circumstances notwithstanding, it is great to see so many cat lovers on PB. My cat is a young female and - as is typically the case with females of the species - she has a small range, only venturing a few hundred metres in any given direction. Thankfully, she has so far shown no interest in the road to the north, and prefers to range south and east, which are gardens and public open space.

    She gets very cross if we inadvertently restrict her access to anywhere, yet spends most of her days slumbering on the warmest, most heavily bedded areas in the house.

    I wonder if she had have been a house cat she would have been any less happy? For females at least, large ranges don’t seem necessary.

    But, it is interesting to debate.
    We had a female cat many years ago that was a dreadful wanderer. She was brought back once from at least two miles away and across two busy roads. Then she got pregnant and we thought that'll calm her but it didn't. She had the kittens close to a door and a couple of hours after they'd been borne, and had their first feed she was off and out. My wife was just beginning to wonder how she was going to feed the kitten when the cat returned, fed them all and cleared off again.

    Can be difficult animals, but often give endless amusement. Mr L is going to feel bereft for a while.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:



    And I suppose, just as you point out how those who dislike him are happy to gloss over any number of calumnies against him, so it is understandable that you believe him when he says that when he showed support for an antisemitic work, he didn't look at it closely enough before he did so.

    Corbyn is so fucking stupid he's not actually clever enough to be a structural anti-semite in the time honoured English tradition. He is, what Houston Stewart Chamberlain would have called, a redemptive anti-semite based on an incoherent and only partially comprehended set of values.
    You don't adhere to the idea that he "may not be academically bright but actually he is quite politically cunning" as one other poster suggested when I said he was thicker than the average porcine excrement then?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,615
    edited February 2019
    Chris said:

    tpfkar said:

    Chris said:

    Seems to be suggesting the EU will agree an extension only if a withdrawal agreement passes the Commons by 29 March. The betting markets seem to be assuming the EU will agree an extension anyway.
    If you were going to agree a faffing-only extension it would make more sense to keep quiet about it until the British asked, because:
    1) A resolution is better, and you don't want to encourage faffing unless you're clear the alternative is the car crash
    2) If it looks like the EU is pushing it then that will feed conspiracy theories (eg see upthread)
    I'm still convinced the EU will agree a faffing extension if it comes to it; no deal is just too bad overall for them to say no and get all the blame.

    But I think this is another example of the EU getting the sequencing right. If the March 12th vote passes, T May has to come and ask for 2 months extension for the legislation to work through. All agreed.

    If it fails, T May has to come and ask for 21 months extension (or whatever) for a full renegotiation and 'consultation' within the UK. If she tries to ask for 2 months she'll be told it has to be far more, and will be totally boxed in.

    Very sneaky of the EU getting parliament to vote first. They are operating at such a smarter level than our leaden-footed approach.
    If MPs share your perception that the EU will approve an extension for no particular reason, I should think the chances of the agreement being passed on 12 March are close to zero.
    Unless we think a bunch of Lab MPs are about to bite into the Tory shit sandwich the difficult votes are nearly all pro-brexit, so the prospect of a 3-year extension should help focus their minds...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,875
    My 4 cats - (the children insisted) - go out in the garden but we're strict about not letting them out the front because of cars. But they still spend most of their days sleeping where it is most sunny. And, then, when I am not looking, killing mice and kindly depositing them in the living room.

    They seem to use no energy at all but the noise they make if I am late with their food is quite something.

    When I am working at my desk, they will often come and sit on my lap or as close to the keyboard as possible. The dog will also sit at my feet and, if he thinks this work malarkey is taking too long, will hit my arm with his nose so that I can no longer type. This is a sign to me to take him for a walk.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Cyclefree said:

    My 4 cats - (the children insisted) - go out in the garden but we're strict about not letting them out the front because of cars. But they still spend most of their days sleeping where it is most sunny. And, then, when I am not looking, killing mice and kindly depositing them in the living room.

    They seem to use no energy at all but the noise they make if I am late with their food is quite something.

    When I am working at my desk, they will often come and sit on my lap or as close to the keyboard as possible. The dog will also sit at my feet and, if he thinks this work malarkey is taking too long, will hit my arm with his nose so that I can no longer type. This is a sign to me to take him for a walk.

    out the front.. deary me..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,486
    Chris said:

    tpfkar said:

    Chris said:

    Seems to be suggesting the EU will agree an extension only if a withdrawal agreement passes the Commons by 29 March. The betting markets seem to be assuming the EU will agree an extension anyway.
    If you were going to agree a faffing-only extension it would make more sense to keep quiet about it until the British asked, because:
    1) A resolution is better, and you don't want to encourage faffing unless you're clear the alternative is the car crash
    2) If it looks like the EU is pushing it then that will feed conspiracy theories (eg see upthread)
    I'm still convinced the EU will agree a faffing extension if it comes to it; no deal is just too bad overall for them to say no and get all the blame.

    But I think this is another example of the EU getting the sequencing right. If the March 12th vote passes, T May has to come and ask for 2 months extension for the legislation to work through. All agreed.

    If it fails, T May has to come and ask for 21 months extension (or whatever) for a full renegotiation and 'consultation' within the UK. If she tries to ask for 2 months she'll be told it has to be far more, and will be totally boxed in.

    Very sneaky of the EU getting parliament to vote first. They are operating at such a smarter level than our leaden-footed approach.
    If MPs share your perception that the EU will approve an extension for no particular reason, I should think the chances of the agreement being passed on 12 March are close to zero.
    On the contrary, the higher the chances of a long Art 50 extension and potentially BINO or EUref2 the higher the chances the ERG will be forced to back May's Deal and it scraped through
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 3,869
    Javid seems to have banned the political wing of Hezbollah, rendering the entire group a proscribed terrorist organisation. Seems absolutely nailed-on that Corbyn will oppose this, loudly, and that debate on social media will degenerate into yet another round of AS point scoring.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,493
    Cyclefree said:

    My 4 cats - (the children insisted) - go out in the garden but we're strict about not letting them out the front because of cars. But they still spend most of their days sleeping where it is most sunny. And, then, when I am not looking, killing mice and kindly depositing them in the living room.

    They seem to use no energy at all but the noise they make if I am late with their food is quite something.

    When I am working at my desk, they will often come and sit on my lap or as close to the keyboard as possible. The dog will also sit at my feet and, if he thinks this work malarkey is taking too long, will hit my arm with his nose so that I can no longer type. This is a sign to me to take him for a walk.

    We live on a reasonably busy road, but have quite a large back garden. I'd love to get some new cats, and to explain to them that there's plenty of room out the back, and really no need to go out the front. But cats are notoriously difficult to contain. Really need to find an adult cat with a bit of road sense in need of a home.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450
    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    tpfkar said:

    Chris said:

    Seems to be suggesting the EU will agree an extension only if a withdrawal agreement passes the Commons by 29 March. The betting markets seem to be assuming the EU will agree an extension anyway.
    If you were going to agree a faffing-only extension it would make more sense to keep quiet about it until the British asked, because:
    1) A resolution is better, and you don't want to encourage faffing unless you're clear the alternative is the car crash
    2) If it looks like the EU is pushing it then that will feed conspiracy theories (eg see upthread)
    I'm still convinced the EU will agree a faffing extension if it comes to it; no deal is just too bad overall for them to say no and get all the blame.

    But I think this is another example of the EU getting the sequencing right. If the March 12th vote passes, T May has to come and ask for 2 months extension for the legislation to work through. All agreed.

    If it fails, T May has to come and ask for 21 months extension (or whatever) for a full renegotiation and 'consultation' within the UK. If she tries to ask for 2 months she'll be told it has to be far more, and will be totally boxed in.

    Very sneaky of the EU getting parliament to vote first. They are operating at such a smarter level than our leaden-footed approach.
    If MPs share your perception that the EU will approve an extension for no particular reason, I should think the chances of the agreement being passed on 12 March are close to zero.
    On the contrary, the higher the chances of a long Art 50 extension and potentially BINO or EUref2 the higher the chances the ERG will be forced to back May's Deal and it scraped through
    How are the ERG going to be enough, given the majority against the deal last time?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,493
    Anyway, are we not due some more Tiggers (or not-Tiggers) today? All seems to have gone rather quiet in that respect.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Tusk offers May an extension and looks very conciliatory . If no deal happens May and the Tories can own it .
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828

    Yeah who could accuse Blair of waging war...

    So whether something is racist or not depends on how much you disagree with the person, interesting take...

    You've achieved a dizzying sequence of end-to-end non-sequiturs there...
    TBH it just shows up the weakness in the argument, Corbyn says something and it is AS you point out Blair was heavily involved in coming up with it and suddenly it is only racist when Corbyn says it.

    It's pretty close to admitting your willing to claim anything to get your political way.
This discussion has been closed.