People who think the Tories will never again run a GE campaign as badly as the 2017 one should look at what was clearly a co-ordinated response to the kids’ climate change strike yesterday.
They should be in school rather than incited by Lefty agitators in their schools to shout personal abuse at the Prime Minister.
I'm really not sure what the Tories were supposed to do here - express any anger at what went on and be labelled as not engaging, or condescensing, or not caring about kids or whatever, but the alternative being to back it?
Say it’s an important issue, say that children’s education shouldn’t be disrupted and protests should be in weekends or holidays, and then list out clearly all the Government is doing about it. Which is rather a lot, actually.
The bit I really don’t like about this is the Marxist agitation and use of children going on “strike”.
Children don’t go on strike: they are not protesting against their employer nor on their terms or conditions of employment, they are in full time compulsory education, and this is pure incitement by adults who really hope to use them as tools to apply political pressure to bring down May’s Government for a Left wing alternative.
The uncomfortable truth is that if these kids wanted to help save the planet, then their parents should never have had them in the first place....
That's how you drastically and effectively reduce your carbon footprint. By not reproducing.
Peak PB Tory.
“These kids have no right to protest, and if they really wished to make a difference, they should commit suicide.”
Of course they can protest but that can be achieved at the weekend. The last part of your sentence is sick
My grown up children have lost several of their friends through suicide over the years
Oh god. PB’s pre-eminent pearl-clutcher awakes.
Just a genuine question. Have you ever experienced the suicide of a young person
I have experienced my fair share of suicides.
Regardless, I was responding to Marquee Mark’s suggestion that the best thing these kids could do is not be born.
Which is a rather high barrier to political activism.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
It doesn’t have to be. But if it isn’t it will largely be a rule-taker whose views are ignored.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
The strategic implication, I think, is that the UK, which for the last fifty years has presented itself as the bridge between Europe and America will find itself cut off from both.
From the article Rutte promotes the same positions as the UK previously did, for example on the EU army, and is working out how to maintain those positions now the UK is no longer involved.
We can still work with Rutte. Dialogue between nation states won’t end just because one has chose to be a member and the other has not.
People who think the Tories will never again run a GE campaign as badly as the 2017 one should look at what was clearly a co-ordinated response to the kids’ climate change strike yesterday.
They should be in school rather than incited by Lefty agitators in their schools to shout personal abuse at the Prime Minister.
I'm really not sure what the Tories were supposed to do here - express any anger at what went on and be labelled as not engaging, or condescensing, or not caring about kids or whatever, but the alternative being to back it?
Say it’s an important issue, say that children’s education shouldn’t be disrupted and protests should be in weekends or holidays, and then list out clearly all the Government is doing about it. Which is rather a lot, actually.
The bit I really don’t like about this is the Marxist agitation and use of children goingrnative.
Whatever the rights or wrongs of this particular action, bringing down May's 'government' and replacing it with something competent, Left Wing or not, is a laudable aim.
And that would have been the motive of the parents and teachers behind this protest, which wouldn’t have happened without their extensive support.
It wasn’t a coincidence that the biggest “protests” happened in those highly politically balanced bastions of London, Brighton, Oxford and Exeter.
Whereas you are dialling in your retrograde copy from...Hartlepool?
You’re not at your best this morning, are you?
Those places are some of the most left-wing in the country. It’d protests in middle England or suburban England and amongst the swing constituencies I’d be worried about.
These kids will grow up to believe the Tories are lower than bacteria, and vote accordingly.
To be fair, the Tories have indeed become lower than bacteria. There are strains of meningitis with a better-thought-out governing philosophy than the modern Tory party.
As for the kids, I’m reminded of Cyclefree’s post a day or so ago that said few people have moral courage to make a stand, and that most of us are cowards.
The marching children - wherever they are from - should he applauded, not sneered at.
People who think the Tories will never again run a GE campaign as badly as the 2017 one should look at what was clearly a co-ordinated response to the kids’ climate change strike yesterday.
They should be in school rather than incited by Lefty agitators in their schools to shout personal abuse at the Prime Minister.
I'm really not sure what the Tories were supposed to do here - express any anger at what went on and be labelled as not engaging, or condescensing, or not caring about kids or whatever, but the alternative being to back it?
Say it’s an important issue, say that children’s education shouldn’t be disrupted and protests should be in weekends or holidays, and then list out clearly all the Government is doing about it. Which is rather a lot, actually.
The bit I really don’t like about this is the Marxist agitation and use of children goingrnative.
Whatever the rights or wrongs of this particular action, bringing down May's 'government' and replacing it with something competent, Left Wing or not, is a laudable aim.
And that would have been the motive of the parents and teachers behind this protest, which wouldn’t have happened without their extensive support.
It wasn’t a coincidence that the biggest “protests” happened in those highly politically balanced bastions of London, Brighton, Oxford and Exeter.
Whereas you are dialling in your retrograde copy from...Hartlepool?
You’re not at your best this morning, are you?
Those places are some of the most left-wing in the country. It’d protests in middle England or suburban England and amongst the swing constituencies I’d be worried about.
These kids will grow up to believe the Tories are lower than bacteria, and vote accordingly.
To be fair, the Tories have indeed become lower than bacteria. There are strains of meningitis with a better-thought-out governing philosophy than the modern Tory party.
As for the kids, I’m reminded of Cyclefree’s post a day or so ago that said few people have moral courage to make a stand, and that most of us are cowards.
The marching children - wherever they are from - should he applauded, not sneered at.
Without defending Williamson's idiotic posturing I don't recall Osborne's trade missions to China as being particularly successful. Hinkley Point for example.
Was it not yourself that point out that the volume of renminbi traded in London now exceeded the volume of sterling/Euro trades? That is a direct consequence of Osborne's visits.
People who think the Tories will never again run a GE campaign as badly as the 2017 one should look at what was clearly a co-ordinated response to the kids’ climate change strike yesterday.
They should be in school rather than incited by Lefty agitators in their schools to shout personal abuse at the Prime Minister.
I'm r back it?
Say it’s an important issue, say that children’s education shouldn’t be disrupted and protests should be in weekends or holidays, and then list out clearly all the Government is doing about it. Which is rather a lot, actually.
The bit I really don’t like about this is the Marxist agitation and use of children goingrnative.
Whatever the rights or wrongs of this particular action, bringing down May's 'government' and replacing it with something competent, Left Wing or not, is a laudable aim.
And that would have been the motive of the parents and teachers behind this protest, which wouldn’t have happened without their extensive support.
It wasn’t a coincidence that the biggest “protests” happened in those highly politically balanced bastions of London, Brighton, Oxford and Exeter.
Whereas you are dialling in your retrograde copy from...Hartlepool?
You’re not at your best this morning, are you?
Those places are some of the most left-wing in the country. It’d protests in middle England or suburban England and amongst the swing constituencies I’d be worried about.
These kids will grow up to believe the Tories are lower than bacteria, and vote accordingly.
To be fair, the Tories have indeed become lower than bacteria. There are strains of meningitis with a better-thought-out governing philosophy than the modern Tory party.
As for the kids, I’m reminded of Cyclefree’s post a day or so ago that said few people have moral courage to make a stand, and that most of us are cowards.
The marching children - wherever they are from - should he applauded, not sneered at.
m21
I don’t think she was referring to bunking off school to walk in a mass march; that’s strength in large numbers with the sanction of the powers that be in their lives, not moral courage or leadership by standing up directly against those that have direct power over you.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
I don't think Russia is a good example for us. Japan and Australia are better examples. They are isolated by force of circumstance, while we choose to isolate ourselves. I think that makes a big difference, particularly when our buddy countries are well plugged in. Australia produced a Foreign Policy White Paper last year, which was positively wistful about the European Union.
Without defending Williamson's idiotic posturing I don't recall Osborne's trade missions to China as being particularly successful. Hinkley Point for example.
Was it not yourself that point out that the volume of renminbi traded in London now exceeded the volume of sterling/Euro trades? That is a direct consequence of Osborne's visits.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
I don't think Russia is a good example for us. Japan and Australia are better examples. They are isolated by force of circumstance, while we choose to isolate ourselves. I think that makes a big difference, particularly when our buddy countries are well plugged in. Australia produced a Foreign Policy White Paper last year, which was positively wistful about the European Union.
One of the tragic ironies of Brexit is that the kind of geopolitical reconnection with Australia, Canada and New Zealand that some dream of is much more compelling for them as CANZEU than as CANZUK.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
It doesn’t have to be. But if it isn’t it will largely be a rule-taker whose views are ignored.
Though there is a difference between being in a trading block or military alliance like NATO or the UN and a full-scale political union like the EU increasingly wants to be
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
I don't think Russia is a good example for us. Japan and Australia are better examples. They are isolated by force of circumstance, while we choose to isolate ourselves. I think that makes a big difference, particularly when our buddy countries are well plugged in. Australia produced a Foreign Policy White Paper last year, which was positively wistful about the European Union.
Australia will agree trading agreements with its Asian neighbours but not a political union
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
I don't think Russia is a good example for us. Japan and Australia are better examples. They are isolated by force of circumstance, while we choose to isolate ourselves. I think that makes a big difference, particularly when our buddy countries are well plugged in. Australia produced a Foreign Policy White Paper last year, which was positively wistful about the European Union.
One of the tragic ironies of Brexit is that the kind of geopolitical reconnection with Australia, Canada and New Zealand that some dream of is much more compelling for them as CANZEU than as CANZUK.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
I don't think Russia is a good example for us. Japan and Australia are better examples. They are isolated by force of circumstance, while we choose to isolate ourselves. I think that makes a big difference, particularly when our buddy countries are well plugged in. Australia produced a Foreign Policy White Paper last year, which was positively wistful about the European Union.
Australia will agree trading agreements with its Asian neighbours but not a political union
You can't really compare the two situations; Australia has spent the last 100+ years since federation gradually disengaging from its abusive parent.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Then we’re dependent on a friendly deal with Scotland after independence.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
I didn’t.
What a surprise.
Every single Labour supporter now says they opposed Blair's warmongering and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
Without defending Williamson's idiotic posturing I don't recall Osborne's trade missions to China as being particularly successful. Hinkley Point for example.
Was it not yourself that point out that the volume of renminbi traded in London now exceeded the volume of sterling/Euro trades? That is a direct consequence of Osborne's visits.
Actually it wasn't.
How does that compare to the costs of Hinkley C ?
Hinkley C is a disastrous decision by an incompetent government that will make high energy manufacturing less competitive in the UK for decades but it was May's decision, not Osborne's. But we have done this before.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Then we’re dependent on a friendly deal with Scotland after independence.
The English ICBM boats would be based in King's Bay, GA I imagine. Where they spend a great deal of time anyway. That's where 17% of the crew of one of the RN boomers tested positive for cocaine.
People who think the Tories will never again run a GE campaign as badly as the 2017 one should look at what was clearly a co-ordinated response to the kids’ climate change strike yesterday.
They should be in school rather than incited by Lefty agitators in their schools to shout personal abuse at the Prime Minister.
I'm really not sure what the Tories were supposed to do here - express any anger at what went on and be labelled as not engaging, or condescensing, or not caring about kids or whatever, but the alternative being to back it?
Say it’s an important issue, say that children’s education shouldn’t be disrupted and protests should be in weekends or holidays, and then list out clearly all the Government is doing about it. Which is rather a lot, actually.
The bit I really don’t like about this is the Marxist agitation and use of children going on “strike”.
Children don’t go on strike: they are not protesting against their employer nor on their terms or conditions of employment, they are in full time compulsory education, and this is pure incitement by adults who really hope to use them as tools to apply political pressure to bring down May’s Government for a Left wing alternative.
The uncomfortable truth is that if these kids wanted to help save the planet, then their parents should never have had them in the first place....
That's how you drastically and effectively reduce your carbon footprint. By not reproducing.
Peak PB Tory.
“These kids have no right to protest, and if they really wished to make a difference, they should commit suicide.”
Of course they can protest but that can be achieved at the weekend...
I’m not sure you understand the dynamics of effective protest. Causing a certain amount of disruption is pretty well essential to the enterprise of gaining attention.
And it’s effectivel saying why should we take your rules seriously if you don’t do the same for our futures.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Noone can make the UK give up its seat.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
I didn’t.
What a surprise.
Every single Labour supporter now says they opposed Blair's warmongering and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
Similar observation may well be made of leave voters in a decade’s time...
A comment from Lady Falkender appears in the Daily Mail which I have not encountered before - 'In an interview last year, she said: 'I did not sleep with the prime minister. It is a ludicrous idea and an insulting one, which is why I successfully sued the BBC. If you knew him, you wouldn't think that. You couldn't think that, and nobody did.''
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
I don't think Russia is a good example for us. Japan and Australia are better examples. They are isolated by force of circumstance, while we choose to isolate ourselves. I think that makes a big difference, particularly when our buddy countries are well plugged in. Australia produced a Foreign Policy White Paper last year, which was positively wistful about the European Union.
Australia will agree trading agreements with its Asian neighbours but not a political union
You can't really compare the two situations; Australia has spent the last 100+ years since federation gradually disengaging from its abusive parent.
I think you're just embarrassed by the UK and its history and think your intellect means you can rise above it.
I think that’s a polite and slightly naive waffle, Nick.
Young children mass protesting against climate change would have been newsworthy regardless of the mechanism; in fact, it might have been more effective as more could have joined and More would have noticed.
It didn’t take a day off work for the People’s Vote March to get universal coverage on a Saturday.
Mmm, but people were already talking about Brexit. Here we all are talking about a climate change protest. When did we last mention climate change here? I think they've successfully given the issue a bit more salience.
Would I feel the same if they'd been marching against immigration or demanding No Deal Brexit? I'd have thought it worrying - but not pointless.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
I didn’t.
What a surprise.
Every single Labour supporter now says they opposed Blair's warmongering and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
I’m not a Labour supporter. To be fair, though, those leading the Labour party and most current Labour members did energetically oppose both.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Then we’re dependent on a friendly deal with Scotland after independence.
One of the more interesting results of the incompetent fiasco that our political masters have made of Brexit is the reservations it is causing in Scotland about independence. One of the SNP leaders recognised this yesterday by talking about a "soft" independence for Scotland.
In my view, and I recognise that I am not exactly neutral in this, anyone arguing that Scottish independence is going to be straightforward or that the deal with rUK would be anything short of nightmarish to negotiate is going to be met with derisive laughter for decades to come. There are increasing signs that the SNP are becoming aware of the implications and are far from happy about it.
Obviously, the big difficulty with a referendum is whether to include No Deal as an option.
Leaving it out breaches May's Golden Rule: Don't Break the Tory Party.
But if it's going to be in there, will the EU approve the necessary extension unanimously? Will they view the electorate as more likely to choose No Deal than the politicians?
It has to be included and cannot be included. Yet it has to be. But it can't.
I reckon the format for REF2 would take longer to agree than the trade deal.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Then we’re dependent on a friendly deal with Scotland after independence.
The English ICBM boats would be based in King's Bay, GA I imagine. Where they spend a great deal of time anyway. That's where 17% of the crew of one of the RN boomers tested positive for cocaine.
Having experienced some Helensburgh pubs on a Saturday night, I wouldn't be surprised if the fgures were at least as high on home turf.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Then we’re dependent on a friendly deal with Scotland after independence.
One of the more interesting results of the incompetent fiasco that our political masters have made of Brexit is the reservations it is causing in Scotland about independence. One of the SNP leaders recognised this yesterday by talking about a "soft" independence for Scotland.
In my view, and I recognise that I am not exactly neutral in this, anyone arguing that Scottish independence is going to be straightforward or that the deal with rUK would be anything short of nightmarish to negotiate is going to be met with derisive laughter for decades to come. There are increasing signs that the SNP are becoming aware of the implications and are far from happy about it.
The uncomfortable truth is that if these kids wanted to help save the planet, then their parents should never have had them in the first place....
That's how you drastically and effectively reduce your carbon footprint. By not reproducing.
Peak PB Tory.
“These kids have no right to protest, and if they really wished to make a difference, they should commit suicide.”
Of course they can protest but that can be achieved at the weekend...
I’m not sure you understand the dynamics of effective protest. Causing a certain amount of disruption is pretty well essential to the enterprise of gaining attention.
And it’s effectivel saying why should we take your rules seriously if you don’t do the same for our futures.
I didn't agree with the children's protest because it seemed to me that there was an understandable ignorance about the massive steps we have made in the UK in terms of addressing climate change. The fact that we get roughly 30% of our entire energy needs from renewables being a case in point.
But personally I am delighted that kids can be stirred sufficiently to put down their iphones and protest about something like this. Apathy is always the biggest danger to democracy and anything that challenges it is welcome. If you are not an idealist at 15 when are you ever going to be? I thought May's response was curmudgeonly and ill judged. But there is nothing surprising about that.
The uncomfortable truth is that if these kids wanted to help save the planet, then their parents should never have had them in the first place....
That's how you drastically and effectively reduce your carbon footprint. By not reproducing.
Peak PB Tory.
“These kids have no right to protest, and if they really wished to make a difference, they should commit suicide.”
Of course they can protest but that can be achieved at the weekend...
I’m not sure you understand the dynamics of effective protest. Causing a certain amount of disruption is pretty well essential to the enterprise of gaining attention.
And it’s effectivel saying why should we take your rules seriously if you don’t do the same for our futures.
I didn't agree with the children's protest because it seemed to me that there was an understandable ignorance about the massive steps we have made in the UK in terms of addressing climate change. The fact that we get roughly 30% of our entire energy needs from renewables being a case in point.
But personally I am delighted that kids can be stirred sufficiently to put down their iphones and protest about something like this. Apathy is always the biggest danger to democracy and anything that challenges it is welcome. If you are not an idealist at 15 when are you ever going to be? I thought May's response was curmudgeonly and ill judged. But there is nothing surprising about that.
No, we don’t. We get around 30% of our electricity from renewables. The problem is a great deal bigger than that.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Noone can make the UK give up its seat.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
Surely if the Uk breaks up, we lose the seat by default, since the Uk no longer exists?
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Noone can make the UK give up its seat.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
Surely if the Uk breaks up, we lose the seat by default, since the Uk no longer exists?
weve been through this before
didnt happen when USSR broke up, Russia retained the seat
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Then we’re dependent on a friendly deal with Scotland after independence.
One of the more interesting results of the incompetent fiasco that our political masters have made of Brexit is the reservations it is causing in Scotland about independence. One of the SNP leaders recognised this yesterday by talking about a "soft" independence for Scotland.
In my view, and I recognise that I am not exactly neutral in this, anyone arguing that Scottish independence is going to be straightforward or that the deal with rUK would be anything short of nightmarish to negotiate is going to be met with derisive laughter for decades to come. There are increasing signs that the SNP are becoming aware of the implications and are far from happy about it.
I would be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts. Do you agree that any politician arguing for independence is going to have to address the mess that is Brexit?
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Noone can make the UK give up its seat.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
Surely if the Uk breaks up, we lose the seat by default, since the Uk no longer exists?
Russia kept the Soviet Union’s seat.
The most likely route to the UK losing its seat is a left-wing Labour government giving it up - along with nuclear weapons. Once gone neither would be recoverable.
Nobody calling themselves 'Olly' should have been allowed anywhere near anything more responsible than ordering the paperclips. That he has is symptomatic of deep national decline.
Without defending Williamson's idiotic posturing I don't recall Osborne's trade missions to China as being particularly successful. Hinkley Point for example.
Was it not yourself that point out that the volume of renminbi traded in London now exceeded the volume of sterling/Euro trades? That is a direct consequence of Osborne's visits.
Actually it wasn't.
How does that compare to the costs of Hinkley C ?
Hinkley C is a disastrous decision by an incompetent government that will make high energy manufacturing less competitive in the UK for decades but it was May's decision, not Osborne's. But we have done this before.
' George Osborne has said the new agreement over the Hinkley nuclear plant is "pretty much" unchanged from a deal struck when he was chancellor. '
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Noone can make the UK give up its seat.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
Surely if the Uk breaks up, we lose the seat by default, since the Uk no longer exists?
Russia kept the Soviet Union’s seat.
The most likely route to the UK losing its seat is a left-wing Labour government giving it up - along with nuclear weapons. Once gone neither would be recoverable.
The uncomfortable truth is that if these kids wanted to help save the planet, then their parents should never have had them in the first place....
That's how you drastically and effectively reduce your carbon footprint. By not reproducing.
Peak PB Tory.
“These kids have no right to protest, and if they really wished to make a difference, they should commit suicide.”
Of course they can protest but that can be achieved at the weekend...
I’m not sure you understand the dynamics of effective protest. Causing a certain amount of disruption is pretty well essential to the enterprise of gaining attention.
And it’s effectivel saying why should we take your rules seriously if you don’t do the same for our futures.
I didn't agree with the children's protest because it seemed to me that there was an understandable ignorance about the massive steps we have made in the UK in terms of addressing climate change. The fact that we get roughly 30% of our entire energy needs from renewables being a case in point.
But personally I am delighted that kids can be stirred sufficiently to put down their iphones and protest about something like this. Apathy is always the biggest danger to democracy and anything that challenges it is welcome. If you are not an idealist at 15 when are you ever going to be? I thought May's response was curmudgeonly and ill judged. But there is nothing surprising about that.
No, we don’t. We get around 30% of our electricity from renewables. The problem is a great deal bigger than that.
Do you seriously dispute that our carbon footprint has fallen in the last couple of decades and is likely to fall further as we move to electric vehicles? It seems to me that the major problem with global warming is in developing countries which do not have the infrastructure to do what we have already done. But I still think kids caring enough to protest about it is a good thing.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Noone can make the UK give up its seat.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
Surely if the Uk breaks up, we lose the seat by default, since the Uk no longer exists?
Russia kept the Soviet Union’s seat.
The most likely route to the UK losing its seat is a left-wing Labour government giving it up - along with nuclear weapons. Once gone neither would be recoverable.
You think Corbyn would give it up? He would happily use it to side with Russian at every security council meeting and emergency surely?
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
I didn’t.
What a surprise.
Every single Labour supporter now says they opposed Blair's warmongering and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
I’m not a Labour supporter. To be fair, though, those leading the Labour party and most current Labour members did energetically oppose both.
I don't remember anyone in Labour opposing Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers', energetically or otherwise.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
I don't think Russia is a good example for us. Japan and Australia are better examples. They are isolated by force of circumstance, while we choose to isolate ourselves. I think that makes a big difference, particularly when our buddy countries are well plugged in. Australia produced a Foreign Policy White Paper last year, which was positively wistful about the European Union.
Australia will agree trading agreements with its Asian neighbours but not a political union
You can't really compare the two situations; Australia has spent the last 100+ years since federation gradually disengaging from its abusive parent.
It still shares a head of state with us but again is not in a political union with us
Without defending Williamson's idiotic posturing I don't recall Osborne's trade missions to China as being particularly successful. Hinkley Point for example.
Was it not yourself that point out that the volume of renminbi traded in London now exceeded the volume of sterling/Euro trades? That is a direct consequence of Osborne's visits.
Actually it wasn't.
How does that compare to the costs of Hinkley C ?
Hinkley C is a disastrous decision by an incompetent government that will make high energy manufacturing less competitive in the UK for decades but it was May's decision, not Osborne's. But we have done this before.
' George Osborne has said the new agreement over the Hinkley nuclear plant is "pretty much" unchanged from a deal struck when he was chancellor. '
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
Once you have permanent membership of the UN Security Council you cannot be removed from it unless voluntarily. If the UK dissolves that may change things but as England makes up the vast amount of the UK population and economy and military it could be argued the seat should just transfer to England and Wales.
India and Brazil and Japan might have a case to be added to the UN Security Council (though Pakistan would oppose I than membership, China would oppose Japanese membership and Mexico would demand membership alongside Brazil) but that is a different matter
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Noone can make the UK give up its seat.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
Surely if the Uk breaks up, we lose the seat by default, since the Uk no longer exists?
Russia kept the Soviet Union’s seat.
The most likely route to the UK losing its seat is a left-wing Labour government giving it up - along with nuclear weapons. Once gone neither would be recoverable.
I doubt even a PM Corbyn would get a Commons majority to give up the UN Security Council seat for the UK and nuclear weapons completely, many backbench Labour MPs would rebel on that
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
I didn’t.
What a surprise.
Every single Labour supporter now says they opposed Blair's warmongering and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
I’m not a Labour supporter. To be fair, though, those leading the Labour party and most current Labour members did energetically oppose both.
I don't remember anyone in Labour opposing Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers', energetically or otherwise.
The current Labour leadership opposed just about everything the previous Labour leadership said and did. No-one noticed because they were so obscure. And most current Labour members were not members when Brown was PM.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
I didn’t.
What a surprise.
Every single Labour supporter now says they opposed Blair's warmongering and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
You won't find many people who voted for Brexit in a few year's time.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
I didn’t.
What a surprise.
Every single Labour supporter now says they opposed Blair's warmongering and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
You won't find many people who voted for Brexit in a few year's time.
Off topic but I kinda like the concept that one of the real sticking points of the Labour party breakaway new party is what colour to use for the logo. Yep, that's a toughie alright
Yep - a bit tin-eared from Guy given that C’s are likely to end up in a coalition with the increasingly hard right PP, with the support of the far-right Vox.
A comment from Lady Falkender appears in the Daily Mail which I have not encountered before - 'In an interview last year, she said: 'I did not sleep with the prime minister. It is a ludicrous idea and an insulting one, which is why I successfully sued the BBC. If you knew him, you wouldn't think that. You couldn't think that, and nobody did.''
I would be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts. Do you agree that any politician arguing for independence is going to have to address the mess that is Brexit?
I think what almost everyone can agree on is that it's all one great big fucking mess; to quote one of our august contributors on this thread 'there are no good ideas from here, only competing bad ideas'.
We're 41 days from Brexit day and still no one knows even approximately how it's going to pan out. Like you I'm not exactly neutral in this, but personally the uncertainty of Indy run by at least semi competent pols seems to compete ok with the current clusterfuck run by a bunch of serial clusterfuckers. Hypothetical poll questions (e.g how would you vote in an indy referendum if there was a no deal Brexit? - https://tinyurl.com/ybltgpn4) tend to be frowned upon in polling circles, but we're rapidly approaching the point where hypotheses become facts, and a no deal means all bets are off. It's a crappy old cliché, but just about every element of the British state is entering uncharted territory.
I would be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts. Do you agree that any politician arguing for independence is going to have to address the mess that is Brexit?
I think what almost everyone can agree on is that it's all one great big fucking mess; to quote one of our august contributors on this thread 'there are no good ideas from here, only competing bad ideas'.
We're 41 days from Brexit day and still no one knows even approximately how it's going to pan out. Like you I'm not exactly neutral in this, but personally the uncertainty of Indy run by at least semi competent pols seems to compete ok with the current clusterfuck run by a bunch of serial clusterfuckers. Hypothetical poll questions (e.g how would you vote in an indy referendum if there was a no deal Brexit? - https://tinyurl.com/ybltgpn4) tend to be frowned upon in polling circles, but we're rapidly approaching the point where hypotheses become facts, and a no deal means all bets are off. It's a crappy old cliché, but just about every element of the British state is entering uncharted territory.
You shouldn't really support something as long term and far reaching as Scottish independence just because the current SNP leadership have really got their act together, while Westminster seems to be inhabited primarily by politicians who would struggle to outwit a gerbil.
But it is easy to sympathise with people who think that way.
Yep - a bit tin-eared from Guy given that C’s are likely to end up in a coalition with the increasingly hard right PP, with the support of the far-right Vox.
Possibly, though given the PSOE will likely win most seats I would not rule out a PSOE and C's deal completely to prevent Vox forming a Government with the PP. Verhofstadt will support his fellow liberals in Citizens regardless
C's will likely be kingmaker given PSOE and Podemos and the PP and Vox are unlikely to have a majority
A comment from Lady Falkender appears in the Daily Mail which I have not encountered before - 'In an interview last year, she said: 'I did not sleep with the prime minister. It is a ludicrous idea and an insulting one, which is why I successfully sued the BBC. If you knew him, you wouldn't think that. You couldn't think that, and nobody did.''
I have never been convinced that the rumours re- Falkender and Wilson had substance to them, but this is the first public denial from her that I have seen.
The uncomfortable truth is that if these kids wanted to help save the planet, then their parents should never have had them in the first place....
That's how you drastically and effectively reduce your carbon footprint. By not reproducing.
Peak PB Tory.
“These kids have no right to protest, and if they really wished to make a difference, they should commit suicide.”
Of course they can protest but that can be achieved at the weekend...
I’m not sure you understand the dynamics of effective protest. Causing a certain amount of disruption is pretty well essential to the enterprise of gaining attention.
And it’s effectivel saying why should we take your rules seriously if you don’t do the same for our futures.
I didn't agree with the children's protest because it seemed to me that there was an understandable ignorance about the massive steps we have made in the UK in terms of addressing climate change. The fact that we get roughly 30% of our entire energy needs from renewables being a case in point..
No, we don’t. We get around 30% of our electricity from renewables. The problem is a great deal bigger than that.
Do you seriously dispute that our carbon footprint has fallen in the last couple of decades and is likely to fall further as we move to electric vehicles? It seems to me that the major problem with global warming is in developing countries which do not have the infrastructure to do what we have already done. But I still think kids caring enough to protest about it is a good thing.
Not at all - but what we’ve done so far represents the easy bit. If transport is to go electric, it would require a very large increase in generation - and we have barely planned to maintain our current generation levels. And as far as industrial sources of CO2 are concerned (steel manufacturing, for example), we’ve barely scratched the surface. That much of our bulk industry has one way or another been offshored doesn’t reduce our society’s reliance on it.
If you believe global warming represents an existential threat to a large part of modern civilisation - and the next generation overwhelmingly do - then the matter is considerably more urgent that even the better prepared nations policies take into account.
The uncomfortable truth is that if these kids wanted to help save the planet, then their parents should never have had them in the first place....
That's how you drastically and effectively reduce your carbon footprint. By not reproducing.
Peak PB Tory.
“These kids have no right to protest, and if they really wished to make a difference, they should commit suicide.”
Of course they can protest but that can be achieved at the weekend...
I’m not sure you understand the dynamics of effective protest. Causing a certain amount of disruption is pretty well essential to the enterprise of gaining attention.
And it’s effectivel saying why should we take your rules seriously if you don’t do the same for our futures.
I didn't agree with the children's protest because it seemed to me that there was an understandable ignorance about the massive steps we have made in the UK in terms of addressing climate change. The fact that we get roughly 30% of our entire energy needs from renewables being a case in point.
But personally I am delighted that kids can be stirred sufficiently to put down their iphones and protest about something like this. Apathy is always the biggest danger to democracy and anything that challenges it is welcome. If you are not an idealist at 15 when are you ever going to be? I thought May's response was curmudgeonly and ill judged. But there is nothing surprising about that.
A good percentage of the kids involved were far more interested in skipping a bit of school than any of the issues surrounding the climate. I know a number of teachers who were glad to see the back of these kids for a few hours - it meant that they had a Friday afternoon without the troublemakers.
The uncomfortable truth is that if these kids wanted to help save the planet, then their parents should never have had them in the first place....
That's how you drastically and effectively reduce your carbon footprint. By not reproducing.
Peak PB Tory.
“These kids have no right to protest, and if they really wished to make a difference, they should commit suicide.”
Of course they can protest but that can be achieved at the weekend...
I’m not sure you understand the dynamics of effective protest. Causing a certain amount of disruption is pretty well essential to the enterprise of gaining attention.
And it’s effectivel saying why should we take your rules seriously if you don’t do the same for our futures.
I didn't agree with the children's protest because it seemed to me that there was an understandable ignorance about the massive steps we have made in the UK in terms of addressing climate change. The fact that we get roughly 30% of our entire energy needs from renewables being a case in point.
But personally I am delighted that kids can be stirred sufficiently to put down their iphones and protest about something like this. Apathy is always the biggest danger to democracy and anything that challenges it is welcome. If you are not an idealist at 15 when are you ever going to be? I thought May's response was curmudgeonly and ill judged. But there is nothing surprising about that.
A good percentage of the kids involved were far more interested in skipping a bit of school than any of the issues surrounding the climate. I know a number of teachers who were glad to see the back of these kids for a few hours - it meant that they had a Friday afternoon without the troublemakers.
I would be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts. Do you agree that any politician arguing for independence is going to have to address the mess that is Brexit?
I think what almost everyone can agree on is that it's all one great big fucking mess; to quote one of our august contributors on this thread 'there are no good ideas from here, only competing bad ideas'.
We're 41 days from Brexit day and still no one knows even approximately how it's going to pan out. Like you I'm not exactly neutral in this, but personally the uncertainty of Indy run by at least semi competent pols seems to compete ok with the current clusterfuck run by a bunch of serial clusterfuckers. Hypothetical poll questions (e.g how would you vote in an indy referendum if there was a no deal Brexit? - https://tinyurl.com/ybltgpn4) tend to be frowned upon in polling circles, but we're rapidly approaching the point where hypotheses become facts, and a no deal means all bets are off. It's a crappy old cliché, but just about every element of the British state is entering uncharted territory.
Brexit was always going to be a gigantic clusterfuck.
It no consolation that the clusterfuckers in Parliament and on here claim solemnly that it was always going to be a clusterfuck but that it is somehow “worth it”.
Yep - a bit tin-eared from Guy given that C’s are likely to end up in a coalition with the increasingly hard right PP, with the support of the far-right Vox.
Why wouldn't Verhofstadt endorse Ciudadanos as they are a member of his ALDE Aliiance of Liberals and Democrats political group and he leads that group in Brussels. .
Personally I prefer LIDL - Liberals In Denial (we're Leaving).
Yep - a bit tin-eared from Guy given that C’s are likely to end up in a coalition with the increasingly hard right PP, with the support of the far-right Vox.
Why wouldn't Verhofstadt endorse Ciudadanos as they are a member of his ALDE Aliiance of Liberals and Democrats political group and he leads that group in Brussels. .
Personally I prefer LIDL - Liberals In Denial (we're Leaving).
Leaving; sees cliff edge ahead and puts foot hard on accelerator!
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Then we’re dependent on a friendly deal with Scotland after independence.
One of the more interesting results of the incompetent fiasco that our political masters have made of Brexit is the reservations it is causing in Scotland about independence. One of the SNP leaders recognised this yesterday by talking about a "soft" independence for Scotland.
In my view, and I recognise that I am not exactly neutral in this, anyone arguing that Scottish independence is going to be straightforward or that the deal with rUK would be anything short of nightmarish to negotiate is going to be met with derisive laughter for decades to come. There are increasing signs that the SNP are becoming aware of the implications and are far from happy about it.
We've been arguing the constitution since 2013. People are fed up and think it's not doing anyone any good. However if there's another referendum on independence that confronts voters with a choice I think Yes will win it. No-one much will be making the case for the Union.
For myself, I am not sure how I would vote next time. I'm as unionist as they come but I now wonder whether the Union really can have consent in Scotland and the United Kingdom gig is over. Scotland voted strongly for the European Union but its interests aren't being considered at all.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
Damning from someone hitherto considered one of our closest allies.
Rutte is undoubtedly an Anglophile, like most Dutch people are. They are also famiusly direct. The Dutch don’t bullshit. That they think this should concern us greatly.
Being on the world stage usually involves British lives and money being wasted so that British politicians can posture on it.
Yep. Gavin Williamson cannot wait for his first conflict.
So why do you think we should be concerned if his ability to do so is reduced ?
For me the only tangible Brexit benefit will be the puncturing of the delusions of English nationalists. But I don’t think it’s a price worth paying. However, we are where we are and it’s something to look forward to.
Perhaps you shouldn't have ra-ra-rared to the delusions of Blair across the world stage.
I didn’t.
What a surprise.
Every single Labour supporter now says they opposed Blair's warmongering and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
You won't find many people who voted for Brexit in a few year's time.
We were told that you wouldn't find many who voted Leave at Christmas 2016.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
That’ll be until a Corbyn government then...........
This is a Tony Banks EDM. Wasn't he a bit of comedian as well as a bit on the left?
He also didn't spot the "live-saving" typo.
He was a republican who used to take the Oath of Loyalty as an MP with his fingers crossed and behind his back. IIRC he could laugh at himself, though. Saving grace!
"Revoke would be political suicide" eh? If we are talking about the Conservative Party, that sounds to me like a very good idea. The Conservatives have already shown themselves to be irredeemably split, totally incompetent and ruled by self-interest. If revoking Article 50 means political suicide, they may as well do the job properly and have done with it.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Then we’re dependent on a friendly deal with Scotland after independence.
One of the more interesting results of the incompetent fiasco that our political masters have made of Brexit is the reservations it is causing in Scotland about independence. One of the SNP leaders recognised this yesterday by talking about a "soft" independence for Scotland.
In my view, and I recognise that I am not exactly neutral in this, anyone arguing that Scottish independence is going to be straightforward or that the deal with rUK would be anything short of nightmarish to negotiate is going to be met with derisive laughter for decades to come. There are increasing signs that the SNP are becoming aware of the implications and are far from happy about it.
We've been arguing the constitution since 2013. People are fed up and think it's not doing anyone any good. However if there's another referendum on independence that confronts voters with a choice I think Yes will win it. No-one much will be making the case for the Union.
For myself, I am not sure how I would vote next time. I'm as unionist as they come but I now wonder whether the Union really can have consent in Scotland and the United Kingdom gig is over. Scotland voted strongly for the European Union but its interests aren't being considered at all.
If the Commons votes for permanent Customs Union as is increasingly likely it will be due to SNP MPs votes
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
That’ll be until a Corbyn government then...........
Not if Labour backbenchers have anything to do with it
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Then we’re dependent on a friendly deal with Scotland after independence.
One of the more interesting results of the incompetent fiasco that our political masters have made of Brexit is the reservations it is causing in Scotland about independence. One of the SNP leaders recognised this yesterday by talking about a "soft" independence for Scotland.
In my view, and I recognise that I am not exactly neutral in this, anyone arguing that Scottish independence is going to be straightforward or that the deal with rUK would be anything short of nightmarish to negotiate is going to be met with derisive laughter for decades to come. There are increasing signs that the SNP are becoming aware of the implications and are far from happy about it.
Someone who lost his seat in 2003 is now a party leader? Don't tell Tony Blair that!
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Noone can make the UK give up its seat.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
Surely if the Uk breaks up, we lose the seat by default, since the Uk no longer exists?
weve been through this before
didnt happen when USSR broke up, Russia retained the seat
The former republics agree support Russia's successor state status, in part for Russia assuming responsibility for all sovereign debt - that might sit well with an independent Scotland.
There's some domestic context in the subsequent tweet.
In that case surely the only countries able to appear on the world stage alone are the USA, China, India and maybe Russia and Japan and every other nation has to be part of a trading block or political union?
We’ll be on the world stage at the same level as Canada and Australia combined, with a bit more spending on the military, diplomacy and aid than they do, and a seat on the UN Security Council.
That’ll do.
Plus unlike France the EU will not be pressurising us to give up our UN Security Council seat in their favour
But India, Brazil and others will. The big test will be when the UK dissolves. But I guess that we’ll keep our seat for as long as the US believes it is useful that we do.
We'll keep our seat as long we have nuclear weapons and don't look like a basket case.
Noone can make the UK give up its seat.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
Surely if the Uk breaks up, we lose the seat by default, since the Uk no longer exists?
weve been through this before
didnt happen when USSR broke up, Russia retained the seat
The former republics agree support Russia's successor state status, in part for Russia assuming responsibility for all sovereign debt - that might sit well with an independent Scotland.
The situation with Russia happened because the USSR declared itself extinct, rather than simply transforming from the USSR into Russia.
I would be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts. Do you agree that any politician arguing for independence is going to have to address the mess that is Brexit?
I think what almost everyone can agree on is that it's all one great big fucking mess; to quote one of our august contributors on this thread 'there are no good ideas from here, only competing bad ideas'.
We're 41 days from Brexit day and still no one knows even approximately how it's going to pan out. Like you I'm not exactly neutral in this, but personally the uncertainty of Indy run by at least semi competent pols seems to compete ok with the current clusterfuck run by a bunch of serial clusterfuckers. Hypothetical poll questions (e.g how would you vote in an indy referendum if there was a no deal Brexit? - https://tinyurl.com/ybltgpn4) tend to be frowned upon in polling circles, but we're rapidly approaching the point where hypotheses become facts, and a no deal means all bets are off. It's a crappy old cliché, but just about every element of the British state is entering uncharted territory.
You shouldn't really support something as long term and far reaching as Scottish independence just because the current SNP leadership have really got their act together, while Westminster seems to be inhabited primarily by politicians who would struggle to outwit a gerbil.
But it is easy to sympathise with people who think that way.
12 years and counting, showing a good deal more maturity and responsibility than Westminster, is good enough for me.
Comments
Regardless, I was responding to Marquee Mark’s suggestion that the best thing these kids could do is not be born.
Which is a rather high barrier to political activism.
That’ll do.
Thank you for otherwise making my point for me.
How does that compare to the costs of Hinkley C ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47264709
https://twitter.com/ArtificialEye/status/1096738311299837952
https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/14/majority-of-french-people-want-gilets-jaunes-protests-to-end-poll
Every single Labour supporter now says they opposed Blair's warmongering and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers'.
And it’s effectivel saying why should we take your rules seriously if you don’t do the same for our futures.
It's possible nations or a group of nations could use aggressive trade and economic obstruction to frustrate Britain's economy until it relented, but that would be a pretty hostile act.
Would I feel the same if they'd been marching against immigration or demanding No Deal Brexit? I'd have thought it worrying - but not pointless.
In my view, and I recognise that I am not exactly neutral in this, anyone arguing that Scottish independence is going to be straightforward or that the deal with rUK would be anything short of nightmarish to negotiate is going to be met with derisive laughter for decades to come. There are increasing signs that the SNP are becoming aware of the implications and are far from happy about it.
It seems the current holder nominates a successor.
East german CDU want her to keep away from their state elections
and shes an ossi to boot
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/ostdeutsche-cdu-politiker-gegen-merkel-auftritte-im-wahlkampf-16044342.html
I reckon the format for REF2 would take longer to agree than the trade deal.
But personally I am delighted that kids can be stirred sufficiently to put down their iphones and protest about something like this. Apathy is always the biggest danger to democracy and anything that challenges it is welcome. If you are not an idealist at 15 when are you ever going to be? I thought May's response was curmudgeonly and ill judged. But there is nothing surprising about that.
We get around 30% of our electricity from renewables. The problem is a great deal bigger than that.
didnt happen when USSR broke up, Russia retained the seat
I would be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts. Do you agree that any politician arguing for independence is going to have to address the mess that is Brexit?
The most likely route to the UK losing its seat is a left-wing Labour government giving it up - along with nuclear weapons. Once gone neither would be recoverable.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37382978
https://twitter.com/timescorbyn/status/1011545021630345216?s=21
taking him out of politics is a major gain from Brexit
India and Brazil and Japan might have a case to be added to the UN Security Council (though Pakistan would oppose I than membership, China would oppose Japanese membership and Mexico would demand membership alongside Brazil) but that is a different matter
https://mobile.twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1096384360905879552
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-02-15/could-a-seemingly-inevitable-split-in-the-labour-party-be-the-next-outcome-of-brexit/
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/apr/04/bbc.broadcasting
We're 41 days from Brexit day and still no one knows even approximately how it's going to pan out. Like you I'm not exactly neutral in this, but personally the uncertainty of Indy run by at least semi competent pols seems to compete ok with the current clusterfuck run by a bunch of serial clusterfuckers. Hypothetical poll questions (e.g how would you vote in an indy referendum if there was a no deal Brexit? - https://tinyurl.com/ybltgpn4) tend to be frowned upon in polling circles, but we're rapidly approaching the point where hypotheses become facts, and a no deal means all bets are off. It's a crappy old cliché, but just about every element of the British state is entering uncharted territory.
But it is easy to sympathise with people who think that way.
C's will likely be kingmaker given PSOE and Podemos and the PP and Vox are unlikely to have a majority
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/14/corbyn-to-hold-brexit-talks-with-barnier-and-verhofstadt-next-week
If transport is to go electric, it would require a very large increase in generation - and we have barely planned to maintain our current generation levels. And as far as industrial sources of CO2 are concerned (steel manufacturing, for example), we’ve barely scratched the surface.
That much of our bulk industry has one way or another been offshored doesn’t reduce our society’s reliance on it.
If you believe global warming represents an existential threat to a large part of modern civilisation - and the next generation overwhelmingly do - then the matter is considerably more urgent that even the better prepared nations policies take into account.
It no consolation that the clusterfuckers in Parliament and on here claim solemnly that it was always going to be a clusterfuck but that it is somehow “worth it”.
Personally I prefer LIDL - Liberals In Denial (we're Leaving).
For myself, I am not sure how I would vote next time. I'm as unionist as they come but I now wonder whether the Union really can have consent in Scotland and the United Kingdom gig is over. Scotland voted strongly for the European Union but its interests aren't being considered at all.
IIRC he could laugh at himself, though. Saving grace!