politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Wythenshawe: To maintain momentum today UKIP needs a good s
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Haha UKIP failing to defy stereotypes!!
twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/433936102576361473
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Afternoon all
I've not commented much on the Scottish Independence issue but George Osborne's comments on the currency situation post-independence are of interest. The Irish Free State used sterling until it produced its own coins and maintained parity with sterling until joining the ERM.
The problem was that Irish interest rates were therefore tagged to British rates and monetary policy was decided in London. The question then for Scottish voters is whether they want monetary policy post-independence to be decided in London or Frankfurt because it won't be decided in Edinburgh.
The trouble with seeking independence in the 21st century is that you soon bump up against the truth that in many issues you have no freedom of action. It's possible to argue that Britain has had no real freedom of decision on foreign policy since 1914 and on economic policy since 1945.
That's not an argument for or against Scotland leaving the United Kingdom but a recognition that an independent Scotland will have a defined freedom of action across a wide range of issues and may not be as independent as some think.0 -
LOLTOPPING said:
The difficulty that you face here, however, is that the majority of your co-Scottees disagree with you. I understand that's why you and the other Nats are so bitter. It's the fact that your fellow countrymen have, as far as you are concerned, betrayed you.
And that is why I can't help but feel sorry for you.
The SNP won a landslide in 2011while Cammie couldn't even win a majority and had to run begging to Clegg to save him. We've work to do in the Independence referendum but September is more than long enough to close the gap once the ground campaign and the big setpiece media debates begin.
You and the PB tories start shrieking about currency every time Osbrowne does his scaremongering act and he's been doing it since 2012. You just don't get it and you never will.HuffPostUKPolitics @HuffPostUKPol 3m
The PB tories are always out of touch. The PB tories never learn.
Mark Carney warns economic recovery could be disrupted by floods http://huff.to/1eWi7yR0 -
Well, since finding this place I've seen the (for want of a better definition) PB Tories call their opponents on here and more generally scum, w***ers, ****holes, r*tards, traitors, sh!ts, Nazis, Stalinists and many more charming epithets. I think you're either a touch myopic or have been drinking deeply from the cup of hypocrisy.TOPPING said:
But what really irritates us is the vituperation on the Nats' side. It mirrors the English socialists and their hatred for Tories/Fatch/etc. We don't hate left-wingers or Scottish people. We like you. We seek to help you see the error of your ways in a loving, supportive manner.
If the latter, as ever I hate the sin not the sinner.
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lol - best response of the week!SouthamObserver said:
OK.Mick_Pork said:
Osborne is seen by the public as an out of touch tory just as Cammie is. The polls back that up not just in scotland but everywhere else. The entire labour election strategy will be based on exploiting that fact and if the lib dem's hadn't thrown their lot in with Cammie they would be too. Your pitiful retreat into a bigotry smear is as telling as your head in the sand clueless predictions of Romney winning the U.S. election.SouthamObserver said:However, if an English voice saying something that the SNP does not agree with is so utterly repellent to Scots in Scotland
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That depends on the audience!isam said:
I always find lengthy stories about bets where you've lost play better to the audienceRichard_Nabavi said:
Actually I had two goes at it. I originally sold the Most Seats market (i.e. backed Labour) fairly heavily at an average of 59.33 in late 2010, and I closed that position at 52 the day before the 2011 locals, which turned out to be excellent timing because Labour put in a disappointing performance and sentiment moved against Labour after that. The price duly went back up again pretty rapidly. I then opened a second Sell position in 2012 at 54. I've still got that position open, and although the market is suspended it's showing as a nice profit. You are right that I've partly traded out, though; however I did this by a bet on a different market because the effective price was better.peter_from_putney said:
I thought you had traded out of your GE Most Seats binary bet a long time ago - you must be glad you didn't as am I, where I'm currently showing a profit of around £400 on a £20 bet. Even so I guess it's a bet we'd both be happy to lose!
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Ha yeah... Apols for slightly spiky post, was just jestingRichard_Nabavi said:
Those tend to be short, not lengthy! Such as 'Bloody John Prescott lost me a packet on the police commissioner market.'isam said:I always find lengthy stories about bets where you've lost play better to the audience
here is my unlucky bet of the year so far... Backed this guy at 66/1 to score a hat trick....
http://youtu.be/pwzEiKgp8o00 -
Saffers making England's form down under look respectable 43-4!0
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As I said, inane.felix said:
Wow - creepy stalker - back in your hole please! As for the Scots currency - why not call it the salmond - nothing at all fishy about that - boom boom!Theuniondivvie said:
Who said anything about not posting? No one made me a moderator. On Free Market PB, as long as you keep posting inanities about what you 'don't care much' about, I'm free to point out the inanity.felix said:
I don't care much either way - I don't know about the rule that says therefore I can't post! I do care about rUK and I do not want want a currency union with bile-filled gnats. Self-satisfied.Theuniondivvie said:
Here you are again, commenting on that subject about which you're so indifferent. At least you're consistent in the depth of your insights.felix said:Its fun listening to all of the bile from the gnats today - 'yellow bellies' 'liars' etc - ti just begs the question why on earth would they want any kind of union with the rUK post independence.? Its a real conundrum - do they really want to leave or not?
Glad to see you confirming yourself as a creepy stalker of Scottish independence though.
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He didn't like the facts pointed out to him anymore than you do.felix said:
lol - best response of the week!SouthamObserver said:
OK.Mick_Pork said:
Osborne is seen by the public as an out of touch tory just as Cammie is. The polls back that up not just in scotland but everywhere else. The entire labour election strategy will be based on exploiting that fact and if the lib dem's hadn't thrown their lot in with Cammie they would be too. Your pitiful retreat into a bigotry smear is as telling as your head in the sand clueless predictions of Romney winning the U.S. election.SouthamObserver said:However, if an English voice saying something that the SNP does not agree with is so utterly repellent to Scots in Scotland
SO is certainly making some adorable friends with his relentless pushing of Osborne's spin.
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To quote the great pork - unspoofable/chortle fop fop fop....Theuniondivvie said:
As I said, inane.felix said:
Wow - creepy stalker - back in your hole please! As for the Scots currency - why not call it the salmond - nothing at all fishy about that - boom boom!Theuniondivvie said:
Who said anything about not posting? No one made me a moderator. On Free Market PB, as long as you keep posting inanities about what you 'don't care much' about, I'm free to point out the inanity.felix said:
I don't care much either way - I don't know about the rule that says therefore I can't post! I do care about rUK and I do not want want a currency union with bile-filled gnats. Self-satisfied.Theuniondivvie said:
Here you are again, commenting on that subject about which you're so indifferent. At least you're consistent in the depth of your insights.felix said:Its fun listening to all of the bile from the gnats today - 'yellow bellies' 'liars' etc - ti just begs the question why on earth would they want any kind of union with the rUK post independence.? Its a real conundrum - do they really want to leave or not?
Glad to see you confirming yourself as a creepy stalker of Scottish independence though.0 -
Oh dear!Mick_Pork said:
He didn't like the facts pointed out to him anymore than you do.felix said:
lol - best response of the week!SouthamObserver said:
OK.Mick_Pork said:
Osborne is seen by the public as an out of touch tory just as Cammie is. The polls back that up not just in scotland but everywhere else. The entire labour election strategy will be based on exploiting that fact and if the lib dem's hadn't thrown their lot in with Cammie they would be too. Your pitiful retreat into a bigotry smear is as telling as your head in the sand clueless predictions of Romney winning the U.S. election.SouthamObserver said:However, if an English voice saying something that the SNP does not agree with is so utterly repellent to Scots in Scotland
SO is certainly making some adorable friends with his relentless pushing of Osborne's spin.0 -
''The trouble with seeking independence in the 21st century is that you soon bump up against the truth that in many issues you have no freedom of action''
A very wise post. The EU torpedoed the Ulster question. Whilst the IRA was fighting for freedom from one overseas power, the Southern government was handing the deeds over to another.
So why bother? The game had changed completely.
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Can I propose a name for the non-linked independent Scottish pound?
I suggest it be called the "poond".0 -
The most hilarious thing is that he's either the third or fourth of this type of poster to crawl out of the woodwork recently. They all try to give it the "I don't care about Independence" while witlessly posting on little else. They aren't even original any more and are just an inevitable amusing by-product of the more vocal PB tories.Theuniondivvie said:
As I said, inane.felix said:
Wow - creepy stalker - back in your hole please! As for the Scots currency - why not call it the salmond - nothing at all fishy about that - boom boom!Theuniondivvie said:
Who said anything about not posting? No one made me a moderator. On Free Market PB, as long as you keep posting inanities about what you 'don't care much' about, I'm free to point out the inanity.felix said:
I don't care much either way - I don't know about the rule that says therefore I can't post! I do care about rUK and I do not want want a currency union with bile-filled gnats. Self-satisfied.Theuniondivvie said:
Here you are again, commenting on that subject about which you're so indifferent. At least you're consistent in the depth of your insights.felix said:Its fun listening to all of the bile from the gnats today - 'yellow bellies' 'liars' etc - ti just begs the question why on earth would they want any kind of union with the rUK post independence.? Its a real conundrum - do they really want to leave or not?
Glad to see you confirming yourself as a creepy stalker of Scottish independence though.0 -
@Mick_Pork
Why do you persist in the nonsense that the SNP won a "landslide" in 2011 ?
A bare majority of seats and a clear minority of votes is most certainly not a landslide.0 -
How about the pwned ?Bond_James_Bond said:Can I propose a name for the non-linked independent Scottish pound?
I suggest it be called the "poond".
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Or the :Bond_James_Bond said:Can I propose a name for the non-linked independent Scottish pound?
I suggest it be called the "poond".
Eck .. Bannockurn .. Wallace .. Jacobus .. Stuart .. Clan
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Poor old Jack. Head in the sand as usual. A majority under a voting system designed to prevent that is a landslide which is why it was reported as that. While a taxi full of lib dem MSPs under that system is a complete meltdown.JackW said:@Mick_Pork
Why do you persist in the nonsense that the SNP won a "landslide" in 2011 ?
A bare majority of seats and a clear minority of votes is most certainly not a landslide.
You shouldn't even have to consult your arse to know the difference.0 -
The PB tories are always out of touch. The PB tories never learn.Mick_Pork said:
LOLTOPPING said:
The difficulty that you face here, however, is that the majority of your co-Scottees disagree with you. I understand that's why you and the other Nats are so bitter. It's the fact that your fellow countrymen have, as far as you are concerned, betrayed you.
And that is why I can't help but feel sorry for you.
The SNP won a landslide in 2011while Cammie couldn't even win a majority and had to run begging to Clegg to save him. We've work to do in the Independence referendum but September is more than long enough to close the gap once the ground campaign and the big setpiece media debates begin.
You and the PB tories start shrieking about currency every time Osbrowne does his scaremongering act and he's been doing it since 2012. You just don't get it and you never will.HuffPostUKPolitics @HuffPostUKPol 3m
Mark Carney warns economic recovery could be disrupted by floods http://huff.to/1eWi7yR
Shall we develop a new concept of "pretendipendence" and get the Scots to vote on that, as it is what they are seeking? What the inept tory fop spinners like Osborne, Balls, Alexander and the rest of the world are saying is that rUK will do what is best for the interests of rUK. You can quit the company, but the company then stops paying you. You can get a divorce, but not still get the BJs. There is nothing difficult about this
Salmond saying it will all look different on 19 September. It won't - why should it?0 -
Ocean News @EI_Ocean 19m
#ocean UK: Torrential rain, high winds and floods cause transport chaos and power ... Guardian http://bit.ly/1g13BUH pic.twitter.com/IPBOEw0TtJ0 -
If yes wins the referendum , does that mean PB won't really cover Scottish politics any more than it would French, Greek, Spanish etc?
If No wins, will any of the Scottish Nats still post? Mean, they don't even consider defeat an option, it would be so embarrassing to continue surely?0 -
The greatest reason for independence ever posted....isam said:If yes wins the referendum , does that mean PB won't really cover Scottish politics any more than it would French, Greek, Spanish etc?
If No wins, will any of the Scottish Nats still post? Mean, they don't even consider defeat an option, it would be so embarrassing to continue surely?0 -
Virtually all PR systems deny landslides which is why they so rarely happen as was the case in 2011.Mick_Pork said:
Poor old Jack. Head in the sand as usual. A majority under a voting system designed to prevent that is a landslide which is why it was reported as that. While a taxi full of lib dem MSPs under that system is a complete meltdown.JackW said:@Mick_Pork
Why do you persist in the nonsense that the SNP won a "landslide" in 2011 ?
A bare majority of seats and a clear minority of votes is most certainly not a landslide.
You shouldn't even have to consult your arse to know the difference.
2011 was a win for the SNP but by any correct gauge of the meaning of the word "landslide" it was not.
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"The [Wythenshawe] result is expected about 2am tomorrow"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tories-risk-slipping-into-third-place-behind-ukip-in-dirty-tricks-byelection-9126017.html0 -
As we all know by now Jack in your case that "guage" is your arse. Not so for the rest of the media or indeed the scottish political analysts who watched the scale landslide play out that night in 2011 with barely concealed astonishment.JackW said:2011 was a win for the SNP but by any correct gauge of the meaning of the word "landslide" it was not.
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Malcomg,
Yellow belly ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowbelly_(Lincolnshire)
I've always assumed it was the reference to frogs but I might be wrong.
Is 'feartie' the correct term you should use?
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PB is coming to resemble a forum for particularly reactionary Catholic priests discussing gay marriage; there's some small (and diminishing) entertainment from the deformed, barely formed and completely uninformed views on display but that's about it. Wee Felix is the eunuchy type, railing at the immorality while actually deeply 'stimulated' by it all - quite a few of them on here.Mick_Pork said:
The most hilarious thing is that he's either the third or fourth of this type of poster to crawl out of the woodwork recently. They all try to give it the "I don't care about Independence" while witlessly posting on little else. They aren't even original any more and are just an inevitable amusing by-product of the more vocal PB tories.
Of course the kind of right wing views espoused here barely represent conservative politics in the UK, so it’d be surprising if it was any less sclerotic in other areas.
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I think to be fair to the SNP, 2011 must be looked upon as a landslide in terms of seats won. Tony Blair was apparently assured by the experts who designed it that the Holyrood electoral system meant no single party could ever win. Eck proved them wrong.Mick_Pork said:
As we all know by now Jack in your case that "guage" is your arse. Not so for the rest of the media or indeed the scottish political analysts who watched the scale landslide play out that night in 2011 with barely concealed astonishment.JackW said:2011 was a win for the SNP but by any correct gauge of the meaning of the word "landslide" it was not.
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You are delusional, Pork. The point is so straightforward that you can concentrate on the fact that these people are westminster politicians; their perceived unpopularity may have you ROFLing, but that is a private matter for you.Mick_Pork said:
An amusingly short leap from three of the most unpopular westminster politicians there is to the rest of the word.Ishmael_X said:Osborne, Balls, Alexander and the rest of the world are saying
*chortle*
Pesto for you::
"But it is perfectly clear that every important decision-maker in Westminster, political and non-political, disagrees with [Eck]. Which means this is less about the fundamental economics than about what an independent Scotland could ever expect to negotiate.
And Salmond's threat of retaliation - that Scotland won't assume any of the UK's public-sector debts if there is no monetary union - is also dismissed by Macpherson.
He makes the unoriginal point that a Scotland seen to be reneging on its fair share of the UK's debts would probably be punished by investors when it tried to borrow as a separate sovereign state, that they would extract a punitive interest rate from Edinburgh."
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So what is the weather like in Greater Manchester/Cheshire today? Should we be expecting a sub30% turnout in the by-election?0
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Neil Taggart @TigerTaggart 4h
BREAKING Nigel Farage defies the gay floods and declares that gays are not going to stop him from mowing his lawn pic.twitter.com/54oK57n6sh0 -
Very foolish of you to bring my ARSE into play as it is renowned as the finest political predictor known to mankind throughout history .... and never knowingly undersold.Mick_Pork said:
As we all know by now Jack in your case that "guage" is your arse. Not so for the rest of the media or indeed the scottish political analysts who watched the scale landslide play out that night in 2011 with barely concealed astonishment.JackW said:2011 was a win for the SNP but by any correct gauge of the meaning of the word "landslide" it was not.
However, come the18th September you will certainly become fully cognisant of the meaning of "landslide" as NO very decisively wins the referendum.
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I doubt it. From 30 miles or so away, it's a fine late winter / early spring day: clear and sunny with light cloud, a little cool and breezy but a generally pleasant day. Certainly a very long way from yesterday's horrors.Easterross said:So what is the weather like in Greater Manchester/Cheshire today? Should we be expecting a sub30% turnout in the by-election?
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@Ishmael_X
You seriously didn't know that the tories, labour and the lib dems oppose Independence and are all unionist parties? Here's another newsflash for you then, the weather isn't very good.
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I have done my best to follow the discussion on here for the past couple of days about this currency union business but what I can't understand is why Scotland should want one.
We have had a couple of posters on here this morning telling us that when Westminster politicians say that such a union is not going to happen they are bluffing and one will (albeit they disagree on who will hold the whip hand in the negotiations). There has also been some fairly unpleasant language, "back under your rock" and so forth, but why?
If I were a Scot I would want independence, If the Westminster politicians were telling me that having my country's monetary policy dictated from London would not be an option I would be delighted. So why all the fuss and bad temper?0 -
I don't understand the tone of this article - how can the Conservatives possibly face 'embarrassment' when they don't overturn an odds on shot to come second in the by-election. Surely it is the other way round with UKIP the favourite to come second.anotherDave said:"The [Wythenshawe] result is expected about 2am tomorrow"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tories-risk-slipping-into-third-place-behind-ukip-in-dirty-tricks-byelection-9126017.html
UKIP were always expected to come second and the conservatives 3rd !0 -
Here is what would be "embarrassing" for any of the parties:
Labour - Having UKIP run them close for the win. Anything other than a win.
UKIP - 3rd place or sub 20%.
Conservatives - Less than 12%
Lib Dems, less than 3%.0 -
PB's Scotland threads will be a gold mine for future psychologists looking into "cognitive dissonance". From the wiki article:
Dissonance is aroused when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in ... misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.
Yep. Textbook cases.0 -
In a scenario where the four countries that currently form the Uk all went their separate ways, what would become of the immigrants and their descendants, mainly Asian and black, but maybe some Eastern European too, that call themselves "British _______"??
Could lead to a scenario where they are the only people that describe themselves as British first before English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish , making it a sort of Commonwealth within each country0 -
I'm sorry to hear you've had a blow to the head.Easterross said:
I think to be fair to the SNP, 2011 must be looked upon as a landslide in terms of seats won. Tony Blair was apparently assured by the experts who designed it that the Holyrood electoral system meant no single party could ever win. Eck proved them wrong.Mick_Pork said:
As we all know by now Jack in your case that "guage" is your arse. Not so for the rest of the media or indeed the scottish political analysts who watched the scale landslide play out that night in 2011 with barely concealed astonishment.JackW said:2011 was a win for the SNP but by any correct gauge of the meaning of the word "landslide" it was not.
"Guilty Face"
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Anorak said:
PB's Scotland threads will be a gold mine for future psychologists looking into "cognitive dissonance". From the wiki article:
Dissonance is aroused when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in ... misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.
Yep. Textbook cases.
Harsh...
but fair on you and your ilk.
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Judging by this pic of the Labour candidate and Dougie taken today, it's pretty decent
twitter.com/Mjpkane/status/433942053383577600/photo/1/largeEasterross said:So what is the weather like in Greater Manchester/Cheshire today? Should we be expecting a sub30% turnout in the by-election?
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Expected by us, but the conventional media stance is to compare to what they got last time, which makes for more dramatic stories than you'd get if you took account of the fact that it's a by-election.Pulpstar said:
I don't understand the tone of this article - how can the Conservatives possibly face 'embarrassment' when they don't overturn an odds on shot to come second in the by-election. Surely it is the other way round with UKIP the favourite to come second.anotherDave said:"The [Wythenshawe] result is expected about 2am tomorrow"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tories-risk-slipping-into-third-place-behind-ukip-in-dirty-tricks-byelection-9126017.html
UKIP were always expected to come second and the conservatives 3rd !0 -
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Can you point out a post where I've said defeat isn't an option?isam said:If yes wins the referendum , does that mean PB won't really cover Scottish politics any more than it would French, Greek, Spanish etc?
If No wins, will any of the Scottish Nats still post? Mean, they don't even consider defeat an option, it would be so embarrassing to continue surely?
The main difference between the Nats/Yes supportes and the most of the blatherers on here we're actually voting on something of major importance, we've got to that point without any help from the MSM or mainstream politics, and I'd imagine several of us are actively campaigning to get the result we want. We'll still be be around whatever the result; I'd imagine even the most hardened PB righty would get bored endlessly arguing for whatever microscopically differentiated brand of reaction they favor.
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It's about past performance rather than the more recent shifts and betting. For what it's worth nobody will have that much to cheer about chiefly because it's a safe labour safe despite there being a cursory interest in the second place. I suppose if the lib dems somehow managed to lose their deposit or have a truly dire result that would feature too. The floods are the news story now and for the next few days at least. More likely weeks.Pulpstar said:
I don't understand the tone of this article - how can the Conservatives possibly face 'embarrassment' when they don't overturn an odds on shot to come second in the by-election. Surely it is the other way round with UKIP the favourite to come second.anotherDave said:"The [Wythenshawe] result is expected about 2am tomorrow"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tories-risk-slipping-into-third-place-behind-ukip-in-dirty-tricks-byelection-9126017.html
UKIP were always expected to come second and the conservatives 3rd !
What each of the parties really got for how much effort they put into the seat that will be more long term for local election results and the GE.0 -
It has clouded over in Merseyside, but it's a pity we didn't have yesterday's weather today.
I guessed only a 4,000 majority for Labour, but that was dependent on a low turnout
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I'd imagine the English ones would start calling themselves English, which would have a different vibe if it was the actual name of the country.isam said:In a scenario where the four countries that currently form the Uk all went their separate ways, what would become of the immigrants and their descendants, mainly Asian and black, but maybe some Eastern European too, that call themselves "British _______"??
Could lead to a scenario where they are the only people that describe themselves as British first before English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish , making it a sort of Commonwealth within each country0 -
The problem for the Nats is that their belief in Salmond's infallibility has been challenged.HurstLlama said:I have done my best to follow the discussion on here for the past couple of days about this currency union business but what I can't understand is why Scotland should want one.
We have had a couple of posters on here this morning telling us that when Westminster politicians say that such a union is not going to happen they are bluffing and one will (albeit they disagree on who will hold the whip hand in the negotiations). There has also been some fairly unpleasant language, "back under your rock" and so forth, but why?
If I were a Scot I would want independence, If the Westminster politicians were telling me that having my country's monetary policy dictated from London would not be an option I would be delighted. So why all the fuss and bad temper?
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The threads after Osborne's omnishambles were particularly hilarious in that regard.Theuniondivvie said:Anorak said:PB's Scotland threads will be a gold mine for future psychologists looking into "cognitive dissonance". From the wiki article:
Dissonance is aroused when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in ... misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.
Yep. Textbook cases.
Harsh...
but fair on you and your ilk.
They have of course learned nothing since.0 -
Ooooo - I've never had an 'ilk' before. Cool.Theuniondivvie said:
Harsh...Anorak said:PB's Scotland threads will be a gold mine for future psychologists looking into "cognitive dissonance". From the wiki article:
Dissonance is aroused when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in ... misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.
Yep. Textbook cases.
but fair on you and your ilk.0 -
The last resort of those without an argument -personal insults. You've posted thrice as many posts as me and you rail against a site that you clearly can't live without.Theuniondivvie said:
PB is coming to resemble a forum for particularly reactionary Catholic priests discussing gay marriage; there's some small (and diminishing) entertainment from the deformed, barely formed and completely uninformed views on display but that's about it. Wee Felix is the eunuchy type, railing at the immorality while actually deeply 'stimulated' by it all - quite a few of them on here.Mick_Pork said:
The most hilarious thing is that he's either the third or fourth of this type of poster to crawl out of the woodwork recently. They all try to give it the "I don't care about Independence" while witlessly posting on little else. They aren't even original any more and are just an inevitable amusing by-product of the more vocal PB tories.
Of course the kind of right wing views espoused here barely represent conservative politics in the UK, so it’d be surprising if it was any less sclerotic in other areas.0 -
Finishing third, behind a party that lost its deposit last time is a bit embarrassing, when you were second and had a quarter of the vote last time.Pulpstar said:
I don't understand the tone of this article - how can the Conservatives possibly face 'embarrassment' when they don't overturn an odds on shot to come second in the by-election. Surely it is the other way round with UKIP the favourite to come second.anotherDave said:"The [Wythenshawe] result is expected about 2am tomorrow"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tories-risk-slipping-into-third-place-behind-ukip-in-dirty-tricks-byelection-9126017.html
UKIP were always expected to come second and the conservatives 3rd !
Finishing fourth or worse, when you had nearly a quarter of the vote is even worse.
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I don't know whether you have said in so many words that defeat isn't an option, but as an impartial observer that seems to be the tone from the Nats, and Nicola Sturgeons utopian version of Scotand on the DP almost made me want to buy a timeshare in Inverness!Theuniondivvie said:.
Can you point out a post where I've said defeat isn't an option?isam said:If yes wins the referendum , does that mean PB won't really cover Scottish politics any more than it would French, Greek, Spanish etc?
If No wins, will any of the Scottish Nats still post? Mean, they don't even consider defeat an option, it would be so embarrassing to continue surely?
The main difference between the Nats/Yes supportes and the most of the blatherers on here we're actually voting on something of major importance, we've got to that point without any help from the MSM or mainstream politics, and I'd imagine several of us are actively campaigning to get the result we want. We'll still be be around whatever the result; I'd imagine even the most hardened PB righty would get bored endlessly arguing for whatever microscopically differentiated brand of reaction they favor.
I was thinking about this just now while out on my bike, in a way I'm sure you could say the same at Ukip supporters like me who want out from the EU. Just that I don't really have an opinion on whether a vote would go the way Id like it to, just that I know why I want the result I favour. seems to me that anyone who says it looks like no might win your referendum gets abuse or is treated as though they are talking absolute nonsense
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Spot on.Anorak said:PB's Scotland threads will be a gold mine for future psychologists looking into "cognitive dissonance". From the wiki article:
Dissonance is aroused when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in ... misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.
Yep. Textbook cases.0 -
Personally I don't see any problem with "English" - after all, it's the language I speakisam said:In a scenario where the four countries that currently form the Uk all went their separate ways, what would become of the immigrants and their descendants, mainly Asian and black, but maybe some Eastern European too, that call themselves "British _______"??
Could lead to a scenario where they are the only people that describe themselves as British first before English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish , making it a sort of Commonwealth within each country 0 -
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Careful or you'll get yet more "I don't care about Independence" "I'm an impartial observer" nonsense.Theuniondivvie said:.
Can you point out a post where I've said defeat isn't an option?isam said:If yes wins the referendum , does that mean PB won't really cover Scottish politics any more than it would French, Greek, Spanish etc?
If No wins, will any of the Scottish Nats still post? Mean, they don't even consider defeat an option, it would be so embarrassing to continue surely?
-1 -
It would be rather odd though if you created a label/identity, which was then negated by the choices of other people...edmundintokyo said:
I'd imagine the English ones would start calling themselves English, which would have a different vibe if it was the actual name of the country.isam said:In a scenario where the four countries that currently form the Uk all went their separate ways, what would become of the immigrants and their descendants, mainly Asian and black, but maybe some Eastern European too, that call themselves "British _______"??
Could lead to a scenario where they are the only people that describe themselves as British first before English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish , making it a sort of Commonwealth within each country0 -
Osbrowne surely?Mick_Pork said:
The threads after Osborne's omnishambles were particularly hilarious in that regard.Theuniondivvie said:Anorak said:PB's Scotland threads will be a gold mine for future psychologists looking into "cognitive dissonance". From the wiki article:
Dissonance is aroused when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in ... misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.
Yep. Textbook cases.
Harsh...
but fair on you and your ilk.
They have of course learned nothing since.0 -
There was indeed quite a lot of "denial" flying around. The difference is that denial is a perfectly normal state of mind when confronted with change. It's also normal to move on to acceptance. There are few on here that would now regard that budget as anything other than a serious miscue - at the very best.Mick_Pork said:
The threads after Osborne's omnishambles were particularly hilarious in that regard.Theuniondivvie said:Anorak said:PB's Scotland threads will be a gold mine for future psychologists looking into "cognitive dissonance". From the wiki article:
Dissonance is aroused when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in ... misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.
Yep. Textbook cases.
Harsh...
but fair on you and your ilk.
They have of course learned nothing since.
Yet after years of "No" topping the polls with a large lead, years of confused Nat policies, years of being unable to [credibly] answer fairly obviously questions about independence, the PB Nats are undaunted, unmoved, and unpersuaded [and perhaps a little unstable].0 -
The signal to nat ratio has reached extreme proportions today for some reason.0
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In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.0
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I've asked this before on Scotland threads but don't think I've ever got an answer.
What changes do SNP supporters predict in Scotland following a yes vote?
What differences would there be between a Scotland in 2025 following a yes vote and a Scotland in 2025 following a no vote?0 -
JackW said:
Virtually all PR systems deny landslides which is why they so rarely happen as was the case in 2011.Mick_Pork said:
Poor old Jack. Head in the sand as usual. A majority under a voting system designed to prevent that is a landslide which is why it was reported as that. While a taxi full of lib dem MSPs under that system is a complete meltdown.JackW said:@Mick_Pork
Why do you persist in the nonsense that the SNP won a "landslide" in 2011 ?
A bare majority of seats and a clear minority of votes is most certainly not a landslide.
You shouldn't even have to consult your arse to know the difference.
2011 was a win for the SNP but by any correct gauge of the meaning of the word "landslide" it was not.
If 2011 was a landslide in terms of seats won for the SNP what was 2010 and 2005 for Scottish Labour? They won more than 70% of the seats on an even lower share of the vote.Easterross said:
I think to be fair to the SNP, 2011 must be looked upon as a landslide in terms of seats won. Tony Blair was apparently assured by the experts who designed it that the Holyrood electoral system meant no single party could ever win. Eck proved them wrong.Mick_Pork said:
As we all know by now Jack in your case that "guage" is your arse. Not so for the rest of the media or indeed the scottish political analysts who watched the scale landslide play out that night in 2011 with barely concealed astonishment.JackW said:2011 was a win for the SNP but by any correct gauge of the meaning of the word "landslide" it was not.
Of course if 45% is a "landslide" then they may be a little disappointed by the way the referendum is recorded in the history books.
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Rather an appealing idea. For me at least the idea of immigrants and their descendants calling themselves English has more resonance than calling themselves British.edmundintokyo said:
I'd imagine the English ones would start calling themselves English, which would have a different vibe if it was the actual name of the country.isam said:In a scenario where the four countries that currently form the Uk all went their separate ways, what would become of the immigrants and their descendants, mainly Asian and black, but maybe some Eastern European too, that call themselves "British _______"??
Could lead to a scenario where they are the only people that describe themselves as British first before English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish , making it a sort of Commonwealth within each country0 -
@Anorak or we might disregard the No spin and point out that after years of scaremongering on Currency, the EU and numerous other areas the polls are closing and the polls this far out from the referendum are no more the last word than they were when Yes to AV was leading or indeed labour were leading before the scottish elections in 2011.
As for unstable, you appear to have developed a curious blind spot to the reams of posts from right-wingers on this thread. Not that they are limited to their posts on Independence and on other threads and subjects of course. Far from it.0 -
Hmm, 'creepy little stalker'.felix said:
The last resort of those without an argument -personal insults. You've posted thrice as many posts as me and you rail against a site that you clearly can't live without.
It appears, as if I didn't know, you're certainly without an argument.
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The only people really interested in who comes second in this seat are those that have money on it. For the rest it will be barely a ripple on the pond.
Vincent Hannah used to work hard to make by elections interesting. He is much missed.0 -
I agree, that's what made me think how odd and pretty much how bad it would be if they called themselves British when Britain didn't really exist anymore.Richard_Tyndall said:
Rather an appealing idea. For me at least the idea of immigrants and their descendants calling themselves English has more resonance than calling themselves British.edmundintokyo said:
I'd imagine the English ones would start calling themselves English, which would have a different vibe if it was the actual name of the country.isam said:In a scenario where the four countries that currently form the Uk all went their separate ways, what would become of the immigrants and their descendants, mainly Asian and black, but maybe some Eastern European too, that call themselves "British _______"??
Could lead to a scenario where they are the only people that describe themselves as British first before English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish , making it a sort of Commonwealth within each country
it's already at the stage where when I hear the term "British National" to describe someone on the news, I assume they are Asian or Black0 -
You initiated the exchange.....Theuniondivvie said:
Hmm, 'creepy little stalker'.felix said:
The last resort of those without an argument -personal insults. You've posted thrice as many posts as me and you rail against a site that you clearly can't live without.
It appears, as if I didn't know, you're certainly without an argument.0 -
As a landslide for 'No'.DavidL said:JackW said:
Virtually all PR systems deny landslides which is why they so rarely happen as was the case in 2011.Mick_Pork said:
Poor old Jack. Head in the sand as usual. A majority under a voting system designed to prevent that is a landslide which is why it was reported as that. While a taxi full of lib dem MSPs under that system is a complete meltdown.JackW said:@Mick_Pork
Why do you persist in the nonsense that the SNP won a "landslide" in 2011 ?
A bare majority of seats and a clear minority of votes is most certainly not a landslide.
You shouldn't even have to consult your arse to know the difference.
2011 was a win for the SNP but by any correct gauge of the meaning of the word "landslide" it was not.
If 2011 was a landslide in terms of seats won for the SNP what was 2010 and 2005 for Scottish Labour? They won more than 70% of the seats on an even lower share of the vote.Easterross said:
I think to be fair to the SNP, 2011 must be looked upon as a landslide in terms of seats won. Tony Blair was apparently assured by the experts who designed it that the Holyrood electoral system meant no single party could ever win. Eck proved them wrong.Mick_Pork said:
As we all know by now Jack in your case that "guage" is your arse. Not so for the rest of the media or indeed the scottish political analysts who watched the scale landslide play out that night in 2011 with barely concealed astonishment.JackW said:2011 was a win for the SNP but by any correct gauge of the meaning of the word "landslide" it was not.
Of course if 45% is a "landslide" then they may be a little disappointed by the way the referendum is recorded in the history books.
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Dr Anorak prescribes a nice cup of tea and a Tunnock's Caramel Wafer. Perhaps you could tell me about your childhood? (Difficult to get the wafers down south, much to my irritation)Mick_Pork said:@Anorak or we might disregard the No spin and point out that after years of scaremongering on Currency, the EU and numerous other areas the polls are closing and the polls this far out from the referendum are no more the last word than they were when Yes to AV was leading or indeed labour were leading before the scottish elections in 2011.
As for unstable, you appear to have developed a curious blind spot to the reams of posts from right-wingers on this thread. Not that they are limited to their posts on Independence and on other threads and subjects of course. Far from it.0 -
If the Act of Union 1707 never occurred, it would have been the English Empire, English Dominions, and English Commonwealth.isam said:
I agree, that's what made me think how odd and pretty much how bad it would be if they called themselves British when Britain didn't really exist anymore.Richard_Tyndall said:
Rather an appealing idea. For me at least the idea of immigrants and their descendants calling themselves English has more resonance than calling themselves British.edmundintokyo said:
I'd imagine the English ones would start calling themselves English, which would have a different vibe if it was the actual name of the country.isam said:In a scenario where the four countries that currently form the Uk all went their separate ways, what would become of the immigrants and their descendants, mainly Asian and black, but maybe some Eastern European too, that call themselves "British _______"??
Could lead to a scenario where they are the only people that describe themselves as British first before English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish , making it a sort of Commonwealth within each country
it's already at the stage where when I hear the term "British National" to describe someone on the news, I assume they are Asian or Black0 -
DLT trial - Verdict imminent0
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DLT verdicts imminent...0
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My "Tebbit Chip" is still workingSocrates said:In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
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''What changes do SNP supporters predict in Scotland following a yes vote?''
Arguably a yes vote might change England more than it changes Scotland.0 -
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.Socrates said:In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
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Hey David's turned over Goliath #aftertiming0
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Counts 1-6 not guilty
rest unable to agree.0 -
I bought one the other day via a vending machine at Coventry stationAnorak said:
Dr Anorak suggests a nice cup of tea and a Tunnock's Caramel Wafer. (Difficult to get the latter down south, much to my irritation)Mick_Pork said:@Anorak or we might disregard the No spin and point out that after years of scaremongering on Currency, the EU and numerous other areas the polls are closing and the polls this far out from the referendum are no more the last word than they were when Yes to AV was leading or indeed labour were leading before the scottish elections in 2011.
As for unstable, you appear to have developed a curious blind spot to the reams of posts from right-wingers on this thread. Not that they are limited to their posts on Independence and on other threads and subjects of course. Far from it. 0 -
DLT not guilty on some counts, jury couldn't agree on some, CPS to decide within 7 whether to retry the ones where the jury couldn't reach a verdict.0
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For those laboring under the belief that the Euro crisis will solve itself with time, it's worth pointing out that unemployment in Greece has just gone up to 28%, with 61% among the youth.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-261712130 -
We're seeing a bit of a pattern aren't we.. juries seem hesitant to convict on these type of historical cases.TheScreamingEagles said:DLT not guilty on some counts, jury couldn't agree on some, CPS to decide within 7 whether to retry the ones where the jury couldn't reach a verdict.
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They are upset because the reality of separation as outlined by Osborne (and Carney, Balls, Alexander, Darling, everyone else in the Real World) doesn't match the fantasy that Eck has sold themHurstLlama said:
If I were a Scot I would want independence, If the Westminster politicians were telling me that having my country's monetary policy dictated from London would not be an option I would be delighted. So why all the fuss and bad temper?
They have just found out that Monetary Santa Claus isn't real.
There were bound to be tears before bed-time...0 -
Lol, the Hyacinth Bucket version of 'you started it'.felix said:
You initiated the exchange.....Theuniondivvie said:
Hmm, 'creepy little stalker'.felix said:
The last resort of those without an argument -personal insults. You've posted thrice as many posts as me and you rail against a site that you clearly can't live without.
It appears, as if I didn't know, you're certainly without an argument.
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Also worth noting that Syriza is currently topping the opinion polls there. To give some idea of the scale of change there, in the 2009 general election, Pasok formed a single-party majority government after securing 44% of the vote. Today, they poll around 7%, behind the communist KKE, and neo-nazi XA, as well as the centre-right ND and rejectionist left Syriza.Socrates said:For those laboring under the belief that the Euro crisis will solve itself with time, it's worth pointing out that unemployment in Greece has just gone up to 28%, with 61% among the youth.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-261712130 -
I'd like to know the age profile of the juries, if they are from an era that grew up with the likes of DLT.Slackbladder said:
We're seeing a bit of a pattern aren't we.. juries seem hesitant to convict on these type of historical cases.TheScreamingEagles said:DLT not guilty on some counts, jury couldn't agree on some, CPS to decide within 7 whether to retry the ones where the jury couldn't reach a verdict.
Interestingly the jury was made up of 8 women and 4 men, usually it's not good for the defendant in cases like this when the jury is dominated by females.0 -
I thought received wisdom was the opposite. Women are more likely to acquit a rapist, etc.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd like to know the age profile of the juries, if they are from an era that grew up with the likes of DLT.Slackbladder said:
We're seeing a bit of a pattern aren't we.. juries seem hesitant to convict on these type of historical cases.TheScreamingEagles said:DLT not guilty on some counts, jury couldn't agree on some, CPS to decide within 7 whether to retry the ones where the jury couldn't reach a verdict.
Interestingly the jury was made up of 8 women and 4 men, usually it's not good for the defendant in cases like this when the jury is dominated by females.0 -
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second.TheScreamingEagles said:
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.Socrates said:In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !0 -
In rape cases yes, but when it comes sexual offences that aren't rape, noAnorak said:
I thought received wisdom was the opposite. Women are more likely to acquit a rapist, etc.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd like to know the age profile of the juries, if they are from an era that grew up with the likes of DLT.Slackbladder said:
We're seeing a bit of a pattern aren't we.. juries seem hesitant to convict on these type of historical cases.TheScreamingEagles said:DLT not guilty on some counts, jury couldn't agree on some, CPS to decide within 7 whether to retry the ones where the jury couldn't reach a verdict.
Interestingly the jury was made up of 8 women and 4 men, usually it's not good for the defendant in cases like this when the jury is dominated by females.0 -
I've had one thanks. Watching scottish tory surgers and PB tories obliviously talk up Osborne an asset for the No campaign in scotland is great entertainment to accompany it.Anorak said:
Dr Anorak prescribes a nice cup of tea and a Tunnock's Caramel Wafer.Mick_Pork said:@Anorak or we might disregard the No spin and point out that after years of scaremongering on Currency, the EU and numerous other areas the polls are closing and the polls this far out from the referendum are no more the last word than they were when Yes to AV was leading or indeed labour were leading before the scottish elections in 2011.
As for unstable, you appear to have developed a curious blind spot to the reams of posts from right-wingers on this thread. Not that they are limited to their posts on Independence and on other threads and subjects of course. Far from it.
It was great entertainment in 2012 when we first got this idiotic scaremongering and it still was in 2013 as they kept hammering away at it. The Result - Currency is 8th in issues the scottish public ranked as a priority for Independence and only 2% rated it the most important issue.
So the PB tories can shriek away to their hearts content. They certainly won't affect scottish public of course but just let them get it out of their system. Sooner or later they'll have to face the fact that there is a massive floods crisis and the incompetent fop is somehow going to have to look as if he cares. Something he's just not very good at sadly. Fop PR has proved disasterous so many times before.
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There are plenty of other views on PB, however dominant one side of the debate has been in recent years.Theuniondivvie said:
PB is coming to resemble a forum for particularly reactionary Catholic priests discussing gay marriage; there's some small (and diminishing) entertainment from the deformed, barely formed and completely uninformed views on display but that's about it. Wee Felix is the eunuchy type, railing at the immorality while actually deeply 'stimulated' by it all - quite a few of them on here.Mick_Pork said:
The most hilarious thing is that he's either the third or fourth of this type of poster to crawl out of the woodwork recently. They all try to give it the "I don't care about Independence" while witlessly posting on little else. They aren't even original any more and are just an inevitable amusing by-product of the more vocal PB tories.
Of course the kind of right wing views espoused here barely represent conservative politics in the UK, so it’d be surprising if it was any less sclerotic in other areas.
There are however a few subjects on which reasoned discourse appears to be very difficult. At those times most other posters tune out, because interesting posts are lost beneath the deluge of mutual incomprehension.0 -
Well I cheer for England.Pulpstar said:
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second.TheScreamingEagles said:
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.Socrates said:In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football club in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.0 -
disowned.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well I cheer for England.Pulpstar said:
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second.TheScreamingEagles said:
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.Socrates said:In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.0 -
Aussies have the Saffers 5 down for 110TheScreamingEagles said:
Well I cheer for England.Pulpstar said:
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second.TheScreamingEagles said:
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.Socrates said:In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football club in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.0 -
Translation - 'Ooh, look over there. Drowning squirrel!'Mick_Pork said:
I've had one thanks. Watching scottish tory surgers and PB tories obliviously talk up Osborne an asset for the No campaign in scotland is great entertainment to accompany it.Anorak said:
Dr Anorak prescribes a nice cup of tea and a Tunnock's Caramel Wafer.Mick_Pork said:@Anorak or we might disregard the No spin and point out that after years of scaremongering on Currency, the EU and numerous other areas the polls are closing and the polls this far out from the referendum are no more the last word than they were when Yes to AV was leading or indeed labour were leading before the scottish elections in 2011.
As for unstable, you appear to have developed a curious blind spot to the reams of posts from right-wingers on this thread. Not that they are limited to their posts on Independence and on other threads and subjects of course. Far from it.
It was great entertainment in 2012 when we first got this idiotic scaremongering and it still was in 2013 as they kept hammering away at it. The Result - Currency is 8th in issues the scottish public ranked as a priority for Independence and only 2% rated it the most important issue.
So the PB tories can shriek away to their hearts content. They certainly won't affect scottish public of course but just let them get it out of their system. Sooner or later they'll have to face the fact that there is a massive floods crisis and the incompetent fop is somehow going to have to look as if he cares. Something he's just not very good at sadly. Fop PR has proved disasterous so many times before.
0
