In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second. My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Well I cheer for England.
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football club in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.
disowned.
In my defence I started supporting Liverpool when I was 4 or 5.
I lived/live and work in Manchester, I wanted to get tickets to the Ashes test match, and it was easier to get tickets if you're a county member. Plus membership gets you free entrance to the 20/20 matches, and it is great to see Yorkshire beat Lancashire at Old Trafford.
I mean, I still cheer for Yorkshire.
My profile picture tells you were my loyalties lie.
@Anorak or we might disregard the No spin and point out that after years of scaremongering on Currency, the EU and numerous other areas the polls are closing and the polls this far out from the referendum are no more the last word than they were when Yes to AV was leading or indeed labour were leading before the scottish elections in 2011.
As for unstable, you appear to have developed a curious blind spot to the reams of posts from right-wingers on this thread. Not that they are limited to their posts on Independence and on other threads and subjects of course. Far from it.
Dr Anorak prescribes a nice cup of tea and a Tunnock's Caramel Wafer.
I've had one thanks. Watching scottish tory surgers and PB tories obliviously talk up Osborne an asset for the No campaign in scotland is great entertainment to accompany it.
It was great entertainment in 2012 when we first got this idiotic scaremongering and it still was in 2013 as they kept hammering away at it. The Result - Currency is 8th in issues the scottish public ranked as a priority for Independence and only 2% rated it the most important issue.
So the PB tories can shriek away to their hearts content. They certainly won't affect scottish public of course but just let them get it out of their system. Sooner or later they'll have to face the fact that there is a massive floods crisis and the incompetent fop is somehow going to have to look as if he cares. Something he's just not very good at sadly. Fop PR has proved disasterous so many times before.
Translation - 'Ooh, look over there. Drowning squirrel!'
Translation - PB tories are as out of touch and complacent as the incompetent fop.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second. My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
I notice the publication of the next tranche of the government's EU Balance of Comptencies reviews.
I also notice that largely they note net benefit of UK's membership of the EU.
No surprise to any of us not bought into the EU is baaaad hysteria.
Patrick O'Flynn is very quiet on his Twitter timeline preferring to harrumph instead about the withholding of the part about free movement.
Withheld probably because it too will largely come down on the side of it being a benefit and the Tories can't have that given the swirl of anti-immigrant propaganda upon which they hope to gain re-election.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second. My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Well I cheer for England.
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football club in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.
I love the story of a posh southern git at a Lancs. v Yorks. cricket match applauding a fine shot by a Lancashire batsman and a member of the crowd telling him "Bugger off, it's nowt to do wi' thee".
Which is what the SNP could be telling the rest of us now, were it not for this catastrophically misjudged currency union proposal.
I notice the publication of the next tranche of the government's EU Balance of Comptencies reviews.
I also notice that largely they note net benefit of UK's membership of the EU.
No surprise to any of us not bought into the EU is baaaad hysteria.
Patrick O'Flynn is very quiet on his Twitter timeline preferring to harrumph instead about the withholding of the part about free movement.
Withheld probably because it too will largely come down on the side of it being a benefit and the Tories can't have that given the swirl of anti-immigrant propaganda upon which they hope to gain re-election.
Of course it came down to believe in a slight net benefit of the UK's membership. The government that commissioned it believes the EU is a slight net benefit. If it had been a Labour government, it would have found a major benefit, and if it had been a UKIP government it would have found it was a major loss.
@Anorak or we might disregard the No spin and point out that after years of scaremongering on Currency, the EU and numerous other areas the polls are closing and the polls this far out from the referendum are no more the last word than they were when Yes to AV was leading or indeed labour were leading before the scottish elections in 2011.
As for unstable, you appear to have developed a curious blind spot to the reams of posts from right-wingers on this thread. Not that they are limited to their posts on Independence and on other threads and subjects of course. Far from it.
Dr Anorak prescribes a nice cup of tea and a Tunnock's Caramel Wafer.
I've had one thanks. Watching scottish tory surgers and PB tories obliviously talk up Osborne an asset for the No campaign in scotland is great entertainment to accompany it.
It was great entertainment in 2012 when we first got this idiotic scaremongering and it still was in 2013 as they kept hammering away at it. The Result - Currency is 8th in issues the scottish public ranked as a priority for Independence and only 2% rated it the most important issue.
So the PB tories can shriek away to their hearts content. They certainly won't affect scottish public of course but just let them get it out of their system. Sooner or later they'll have to face the fact that there is a massive floods crisis and the incompetent fop is somehow going to have to look as if he cares. Something he's just not very good at sadly. Fop PR has proved disasterous so many times before.
Translation - 'Ooh, look over there. Drowning squirrel!'
Translation - PB tories are as out of touch and complacent as the incompetent fop.
It will stop raining and the water will drain away.
Salmond will still have a currency problem. What's his Option 3?
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
Cast my vote at 2pm today,at Victoria Road Methodist hall in Northenden.Had to queue for my ballot paper! Looked like quite a number of other people have also been to vote already today.Much busier than i anticipated and busier than i can remember.maybe people going early before the rain.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My "Tebbit Chip" is still working
Of course - many do support England, like yourself Sunil. There are many wonderful Asian Britons who are highly integrated. It is just a large subset who are less so.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second. My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Well I cheer for England.
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football club in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.
Aussies have the Saffers 5 down for 110
Perhaps we weren't so bad after all.
Maybe KP can play for them now? Kepler Wessels managed it
I notice the publication of the next tranche of the government's EU Balance of Comptencies reviews.
I also notice that largely they note net benefit of UK's membership of the EU.
No surprise to any of us not bought into the EU is baaaad hysteria.
Patrick O'Flynn is very quiet on his Twitter timeline preferring to harrumph instead about the withholding of the part about free movement.
Withheld probably because it too will largely come down on the side of it being a benefit and the Tories can't have that given the swirl of anti-immigrant propaganda upon which they hope to gain re-election.
But surely we can trust those in favour of staying IN (like Cammie, Osborne and the tory/lib dem coalition) to be honest before a referendum? Haven't we learned that today already?
It really is worth a read. He says re currency union:
"People need to know – that is not going to happen. Because sharing the pound is not in the interests of either the people of Scotland or the rest of the UK. The people of the rest of the UK wouldn’t accept it and Parliament wouldn’t pass it. This issue more than any other exposes the gaping chasm at the core of the plans to separate Scotland from the rest of the UK. People in Scotland are being asked to accept two diametrically opposite things at the same time. That with independence everything in Scotland will change and at the same time nothing will change. It simply doesn’t add up for the Scottish government. If Scotland walks away from the UK, it walks away from the Pound."
No doubt the response will be yet more personal abuse thrown at Osborne, about how unpopular the tories are in Scotland, Pandas and other such things.
But the personal abuse is not an answer to the argument. There isn't one. Osborne points out that the last attempt at currency union when countries went their own way, Czech and Slovakia, lasted 33 days. That might be on the optimistic side here.
There are undoubtedly huge benefits to being in the EU for middle class liberals who get cheap cleaners, child minders, plumbers and cheap lattes because the barristas don;t 'costa' the earth. Free movement also allows them to schlepp down to Tuscany at a moments notice when ranting in the Guardian becomes wearisome.
For the working classes, it might be a different story.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second. My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Well I cheer for England.
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football club in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.
Aussies have the Saffers 5 down for 110
Perhaps we weren't so bad after all.
Maybe KP can play for them now? Kepler Wessels managed it
Oi! Leave KP alone... We at Surrey need him to provide entertainment in Div 2 this year! :-)
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second. My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Well I cheer for England.
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football club in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.
So if Pulpstar says it, you accept it, but if I say it I'm sheltered and haven't met many Asian people? Riiight...
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
DLT not guilty on some counts, jury couldn't agree on some, CPS to decide within 7 whether to retry the ones where the jury couldn't reach a verdict.
We're seeing a bit of a pattern aren't we.. juries seem hesitant to convict on these type of historical cases.
I'd like to know the age profile of the juries, if they are from an era that grew up with the likes of DLT.
Interestingly the jury was made up of 8 women and 4 men, usually it's not good for the defendant in cases like this when the jury is dominated by females.
I should have thought that any such historical cases would be very hard to prove given a true jury. Without forensic evidence the prosecution has a difficult task at the best of times let alone over an allegation of something that may or may not have happened decades ago when what was generally regarded as acceptable was most certainly different than now.
So the number of acquittals/split juries might actually be an indication of the jury system working as it should- judging the case on the evidence and, if the prosecution can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt, acquitting.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My "Tebbit Chip" is still working
Of course - many do support England, like yourself Sunil. There are many wonderful Asian Britons who are highly integrated. It is just a large subset who are less so.
My former Indian supporting colleague was as integrated as you like - it is an error to assume support a non-English cricket team is incompatible with integration.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second. My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Well I cheer for England.
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football club in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.
disowned.
In my defence I started supporting Liverpool when I was 4 or 5.
I lived/live and work in Manchester, I wanted to get tickets to the Ashes test match, and it was easier to get tickets if you're a county member. Plus membership gets you free entrance to the 20/20 matches, and it is great to see Yorkshire beat Lancashire at Old Trafford.
I mean, I still cheer for Yorkshire.
My profile picture tells you were my loyalties lie.
Easy mistake for PB tories to make on here admittedly.
Mick do you really think an English prime minister of any stripe would consent to a currency union?
You may be right that we don;t understand Scottish politics, but if you think a currency union is a goer in rUK then maybe you don;t understand English politics.
One thought occurs to me about Scottish independence – I’m not sure the monarchy would really work sitting astride two separate independent nation states (that squabble). They’d be horribly conflicted.
Historically around Europe each country had their own and if a monarch reigned in more than one country it was a thing leading towards unification or absorption. Never the other way around.
I can absolutely understand the Scots wanting continuity and keeping the Windsor line on their throne. So what I would propose is this: When Liz pops her clogs we skip a generation and William becomes King of England and Harry becomes King of Scotland. What’s not to like! It would be a riot.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My "Tebbit Chip" is still working
Of course - many do support England, like yourself Sunil. There are many wonderful Asian Britons who are highly integrated. It is just a large subset who are less so.
My former Indian supporting colleague was as integrated as you like - it is an error to assume support a non-English cricket team is incompatible with integration.
Easy solution. Some kind of code of conduct to monitor just how 'integrated' cricket fans truly are. A bit like this.
The Scots will keep the pound until at some point they'll have a referendum on joining the Euro, which GIVEN the implied support for Yes/SNP needed to get to that position will see Scotland joining the Euro. Or there won't be a referendum and they'll join it anyway... Either way an independent Scotland is heading for the Euro at some point.
The Spanish won't like it much but they'll negotiate something out the EU for it like turning a blind eye to the state aid they give to Real Madrid, maybe not Barcelona though.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
I never suggested that significant numbers do not. The problem with many people on this board is that people do not actually listen to what is being said. I said "Asian people often" do something, not "always" or even "mostly". I imagine your "experience" of my "perceptions" not matching reality are based on the same inaccurate interpretations of my words. Do you have specific examples of where my perceptions have not matched reality?
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My "Tebbit Chip" is still working
Of course - many do support England, like yourself Sunil. There are many wonderful Asian Britons who are highly integrated. It is just a large subset who are less so.
My former Indian supporting colleague was as integrated as you like - it is an error to assume support a non-English cricket team is incompatible with integration.
Integration is a spectrum. Clearly support for sports teams is minor in the scheme of things, but it does suggest which nation your emotional sympathies lie with.
Interesting tweet I have just spotted: Stephen Woods @Stephen_Woods Turnout is up for this time of day Wythenshawe & Sale East, Conservative support holding up far better than the press would have you believe
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My "Tebbit Chip" is still working
Of course - many do support England, like yourself Sunil. There are many wonderful Asian Britons who are highly integrated. It is just a large subset who are less so.
My former Indian supporting colleague was as integrated as you like - it is an error to assume support a non-English cricket team is incompatible with integration.
Easy solution. Some kind of code of conduct to monitor just how 'integrated' cricket fans truly are. A bit like this.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
It's a mixture I think, my former co-worker of Indian ethnicity supported the Indian cricket team, then England second. My girlfriend's Dad supports Sunderland FC but Leeds Rhino rugby league !
Well I cheer for England.
Then again, I'm the Yorkshireman that is
1) A Supporter of a football club in a Lancashire
2) A member of Lancashire County Cricket Club.
disowned.
In my defence I started supporting Liverpool when I was 4 or 5.
I lived/live and work in Manchester, I wanted to get tickets to the Ashes test match, and it was easier to get tickets if you're a county member. Plus membership gets you free entrance to the 20/20 matches, and it is great to see Yorkshire beat Lancashire at Old Trafford.
I mean, I still cheer for Yorkshire.
My profile picture tells you were my loyalties lie.
Hmm. Point taken but still ...
And I wind my Mancunians friends on a daily basis.
Citeh fans are great, they even more pessimistic than Spurs fans,
Utd fans are still traumatised by assessment that Danny Wellbeck is a poor man's Emile Heskey.
I notice the publication of the next tranche of the government's EU Balance of Comptencies reviews.
I also notice that largely they note net benefit of UK's membership of the EU.
No surprise to any of us not bought into the EU is baaaad hysteria.
Patrick O'Flynn is very quiet on his Twitter timeline preferring to harrumph instead about the withholding of the part about free movement.
Withheld probably because it too will largely come down on the side of it being a benefit and the Tories can't have that given the swirl of anti-immigrant propaganda upon which they hope to gain re-election.
Europhile rubbish again from you Ben. As has already been commented on elsewhere extensively, the reports make it clear just how much the EU interferes with our lives in areas where they have no need or right to and then say that this is, on balance, a good thing.
It is absolutely no surprise that a government in favour of continued EU membership will produce reports that support that view.
Also interesting that in the report on the Environment they completely fail to address the rather current issue of EU rules preventing proper flood alleviation. Indeed the only reference in the whole document to flooding is to mention that the Floods Directive 2007/60/EC is not appropriate to conditions in the British isles.
The only good thing about these reports is that we can now use them to highlight just how much the EU interferes in almost every aspect of our lives after years of the Eurofanatics denying it was the case.
There are undoubtedly huge benefits to being in the EU for middle class liberals who get cheap cleaners, child minders, plumbers and cheap lattes because the barristas don;t 'costa' the earth. Free movement also allows them to schlepp down to Tuscany at a moments notice when ranting in the Guardian becomes wearisome.
For the working classes, it might be a different story.
Taffys, do you really trust Cammie's Cast Iron Refendum Pledges?
The attitude and tactics of the Pro Independents on this thread really does give an answer to the question that @Richard_Nabavi asks of UKIPpers.. why not vote Conservative to get a 2017 referendum?
My answer to that is that with a pro EU Prime Minister in charge of the "IN" campaign as well as a two pro EU leaders of the other main parties, it would be difficult for BOO to be heard. Like it or not, when people in positions of authority warn of danger, the public listen.
If Tories win a maj in 2015 and there is a referendum, I can see UKIP and BOOers using the same "its not fair, we are being bullied" tactics as SNP are now, because of limited access to media/perceived media bias etc... better to wait until we can argue from a position of strength
So what is the weather like in Greater Manchester/Cheshire today? Should we be expecting a sub30% turnout in the by-election?
I doubt it. From 30 miles or so away, it's a fine late winter / early spring day: clear and sunny with light cloud, a little cool and breezy but a generally pleasant day. Certainly a very long way from yesterday's horrors.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
My "Tebbit Chip" is still working
Of course - many do support England, like yourself Sunil. There are many wonderful Asian Britons who are highly integrated. It is just a large subset who are less so.
My former Indian supporting colleague was as integrated as you like - it is an error to assume support a non-English cricket team is incompatible with integration.
Easy solution. Some kind of code of conduct to monitor just how 'integrated' cricket fans truly are. A bit like this.
Interesting tweet I have just spotted: Stephen Woods @Stephen_Woods Turnout is up for this time of day Wythenshawe & Sale East, Conservative support holding up far better than the press would have you believe
Or...UKIP is doing better than expected if these Tories are lending them their vote this time!
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
I never suggested that significant numbers do not. The problem with many people on this board is that people do not actually listen to what is being said. I said "Asian people often" do something, not "always" or even "mostly". I imagine your "experience" of my "perceptions" not matching reality are based on the same inaccurate interpretations of my words. Do you have specific examples of where my perceptions have not matched reality?
You seem to have ignored the countless people of South African and Australian descent in this country, who cheer for South Africa and Australia when they play England/Team GB/The Lions.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
I never suggested that significant numbers do not. The problem with many people on this board is that people do not actually listen to what is being said. I said "Asian people often" do something, not "always" or even "mostly". I imagine your "experience" of my "perceptions" not matching reality are based on the same inaccurate interpretations of my words. Do you have specific examples of where my perceptions have not matched reality?
You seem to have ignored the countless people of South African and Australian descent in this country, who cheer for South Africa and Australia when they play England/Team GB/The Lions.
Are you thinking of one South African gentleman in his early thirties in particular ?
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
I never suggested that significant numbers do not. The problem with many people on this board is that people do not actually listen to what is being said. I said "Asian people often" do something, not "always" or even "mostly". I imagine your "experience" of my "perceptions" not matching reality are based on the same inaccurate interpretations of my words. Do you have specific examples of where my perceptions have not matched reality?
You seem to have ignored the countless people of South African and Australian descent in this country, who cheer for South Africa and Australia when they play England/Team GB/The Lions.
In terms of loyalty to the country/team, white South Africans have the worst record for being mercenary
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
I never suggested that significant numbers do not. The problem with many people on this board is that people do not actually listen to what is being said. I said "Asian people often" do something, not "always" or even "mostly". I imagine your "experience" of my "perceptions" not matching reality are based on the same inaccurate interpretations of my words. Do you have specific examples of where my perceptions have not matched reality?
You seem to have ignored the countless people of South African and Australian descent in this country, who cheer for South Africa and Australia when they play England/Team GB/The Lions.
Are you thinking of one South African gentleman in his early thirties in particular ?
But the personal abuse is not an answer to the argument.
You're confusing an argument with Osborne's assertions. Easy mistake for PB tories to make on here admittedly.
You are confusing Osborne with Salmond. Osborne's assertions come at the end his argument which is explained in detail in the speech with specific and clear examples of the problems. I had not read it before but I have to say it bears a remarkable similarity to many of the arguments I have posted on here today and on other days. The implications of having an economy based on oil, the implications for the banks, the asymetary of any benefits etc etc. These are obvious points.
Salmond does not have an argument. He asserts so it is true. God like, if you like.
That's all very well but what if that flood prevention wasn't for gay kipper floods?
Except it turns out that what they actually voted against was the legislation - now in place - which was designed to flood parts of the Somerset levels and the fens for wildlife purposes and to limit the ability to dredge rivers in order to protect wildlife.
You really ought to read these things before posting such misleading rubbish.
One thought occurs to me about Scottish independence – I’m not sure the monarchy would really work sitting astride two separate independent nation states (that squabble). They’d be horribly conflicted.
Well, the British monarch is also the monarch of a whole series of independent nation states: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.
However, in those cases she appoints a Governor General to represent her and perform her duties: opening of Parliament, choosing Prime Minsters, standing around looking bored while flags go up and down flagpoles...
So the interesting question is whether a Governor General is appointed for Scotland. I'm pretty sure that the SNP proposed having the Queen on a timeshare basis, but diary conflicts for meeting visiting foreign dignitaries, etc, would be a frightful bore. It might be that a variant of what you propose could be a solution.
Traditionally, the next in line for the throne is the Prince of Wales, and his brother, the spare, is the Duke of York. Perhaps Harry could inherit the title Duke of Edinburgh on the death of the present holder of that title, and start a tradition of the "spare" acting as de facto Governor General of an independent Scotland, but named as the Duke of Edinburgh to avoid offending Scottish sensibilities over being "Governed" in the manner of a colony. He would then be replaced in time by Prince George's younger brother or sister, etc.
The attitude and tactics of the Pro Independents on this thread really does give an answer to the question that @Richard_Nabavi asks of UKIPpers.. why not vote Conservative to get a 2017 referendum?
My answer to that is that with a pro EU Prime Minister in charge of the "IN" campaign as well as a two pro EU leaders of the other main parties, it would be difficult for BOO to be heard. Like it or not, when people in positions of authority warn of danger, the public listen.
If Tories win a maj in 2015 and there is a referendum, I can see UKIP and BOOers using the same "its not fair, we are being bullied" tactics as SNP are now, because of limited access to media/perceived media bias etc... better to wait until we can argue from a position of strength
Yes, or to put it more clearly, they are frit and don't actually want a referendum, because they know they will lose it. On that point, at least, they are showing some tentative signs of understanding reality.
I wouldn't mind them being frit if they were honest about it, but for years they've been going on and on about what a betrayal it is that they haven't been offered a referendum. Now that their bluff has been called, they're apparently willing to wreck all the progress that has been made in all the other fields, and also wreck the possibility of getting at least some alleviation of the EU problem through renegotiation, in order to avoid a referendum.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
And African and Jamaican!
I have never met a Chinese person who supports the Indian cricket team. And I have met a few.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
I never suggested that significant numbers do not. The problem with many people on this board is that people do not actually listen to what is being said. I said "Asian people often" do something, not "always" or even "mostly". I imagine your "experience" of my "perceptions" not matching reality are based on the same inaccurate interpretations of my words. Do you have specific examples of where my perceptions have not matched reality?
You seem to have ignored the countless people of South African and Australian descent in this country, who cheer for South Africa and Australia when they play England/Team GB/The Lions.
In terms of loyalty to the country/team, white South Africans have the worst record for being mercenary
Nah, Straussy, Legga and Smithy are brilliant,
Tony Greig got a bad rep, but he was no mercenary.
One of the reasons he helped set up World Series cricket was, that he had epilepsy, and needed money to look after his family.
In those days, cricketers were very poorly paid.
KP, the South African show pony is the exception not the norm.
That's all very well but what if that flood prevention wasn't for gay kipper floods?
Except it turns out that what they actually voted against was the legislation - now in place - which was designed to flood parts of the Somerset levels and the fens for wildlife purposes and to limit the ability to dredge rivers in order to protect wildlife.
You really ought to read these things before posting such misleading rubbish.
I'm not remotely surprised that your interpretation of the legislation is what it is. It is EU legislation after all.
The attitude and tactics of the Pro Independents on this thread really does give an answer to the question that @Richard_Nabavi asks of UKIPpers.. why not vote Conservative to get a 2017 referendum?
My answer to that is that with a pro EU Prime Minister in charge of the "IN" campaign as well as a two pro EU leaders of the other main parties, it would be difficult for BOO to be heard. Like it or not, when people in positions of authority warn of danger, the public listen.
If Tories win a maj in 2015 and there is a referendum, I can see UKIP and BOOers using the same "its not fair, we are being bullied" tactics as SNP are now, because of limited access to media/perceived media bias etc... better to wait until we can argue from a position of strength
Yes, or to put it more clearly, they are frit and don't actually want a referendum, because they know they will lose it. On that point, at least, they are showing some tentative signs of understanding reality.
I wouldn't mind them being frit if they were honest about it, but for years they've been going on and on about what a betrayal it is that they haven't been offered a referendum. Now that their bluff has been called, they're apparently willing to wreck all the progress that has been made in all the other fields, and also wreck the possibility of getting at least some alleviation of the EU problem through renegotiation, in order to avoid a referendum.
Well fair enough. I cant speak for other people who have been in UKIP far longer than myself (one year). I want out of the EU, and if a defeat in 2017 buggers that Id rather there wasn't one, until the odds were in my favour.
The attitude and tactics of the Pro Independents on this thread really does give an answer to the question that @Richard_Nabavi asks of UKIPpers.. why not vote Conservative to get a 2017 referendum?
My answer to that is that with a pro EU Prime Minister in charge of the "IN" campaign as well as a two pro EU leaders of the other main parties, it would be difficult for BOO to be heard. Like it or not, when people in positions of authority warn of danger, the public listen.
If Tories win a maj in 2015 and there is a referendum, I can see UKIP and BOOers using the same "its not fair, we are being bullied" tactics as SNP are now, because of limited access to media/perceived media bias etc... better to wait until we can argue from a position of strength
Like the Nats it will be a long wait and you still won't have your arguments ready.
The attitude and tactics of the Pro Independents on this thread really does give an answer to the question that @Richard_Nabavi asks of UKIPpers.. why not vote Conservative to get a 2017 referendum?
My answer to that is that with a pro EU Prime Minister in charge of the "IN" campaign as well as a two pro EU leaders of the other main parties, it would be difficult for BOO to be heard. Like it or not, when people in positions of authority warn of danger, the public listen.
If Tories win a maj in 2015 and there is a referendum, I can see UKIP and BOOers using the same "its not fair, we are being bullied" tactics as SNP are now, because of limited access to media/perceived media bias etc... better to wait until we can argue from a position of strength
The obvious answer is that we want to win such a referendum. To win such a referendum, we need to win electoral representation, a wide base of support, and establish momentum. I really can't understand Richard's view that we should somehow want to forego all those advantages.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
And African and Jamaican!
I have never met a Chinese person who supports the Indian cricket team. And I have met a few.
Many years ago, when I lived in London, I met a guy, who was born in Barbados, but had lived in England for 30 plus years he still cheered for the West Indies (despite in his words, it's a country that doesn't exist).
But the thing I most remember from our conversation, he pointed out Barbados' population was the size of a London Borough, and yet it had produced the following cricketers, some of whom were the best in the history of cricket
Sir Garfield Sobers, Sir Frank Worrell, Sir Clyde Walcott, Sir Everton Weekes, Gordon Greenidge, Wes Hall, Charlie Griffith Joel Garner and Malcolm Marshall.
One thought occurs to me about Scottish independence – I’m not sure the monarchy would really work sitting astride two separate independent nation states (that squabble). They’d be horribly conflicted.
Well, the British monarch is also the monarch of a whole series of independent nation states: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.
However, in those cases she appoints a Governor General to represent her and perform her duties: opening of Parliament, choosing Prime Minsters, standing around looking bored while flags go up and down flagpoles...
So the interesting question is whether a Governor General is appointed for Scotland. I'm pretty sure that the SNP proposed having the Queen on a timeshare basis, but diary conflicts for meeting visiting foreign dignitaries, etc, would be a frightful bore. It might be that a variant of what you propose could be a solution.
Traditionally, the next in line for the throne is the Prince of Wales, and his brother, the spare, is the Duke of York. Perhaps Harry could inherit the title Duke of Edinburgh on the death of the present holder of that title, and start a tradition of the "spare" acting as de facto Governor General of an independent Scotland, but named as the Duke of Edinburgh to avoid offending Scottish sensibilities over being "Governed" in the manner of a colony. He would then be replaced in time by Prince George's younger brother or sister, etc.
Harry could only 'inherit' (or more accurately, be granted), the Dukedom of Edinburgh once both the current duke and the queen have died. If Prince Philip dies before the queen, Charles will inherit the title in the normal manner as eldest son of the previous holder. Only when he becomes king will it merge with the crown and be available for re-conferring.
It was suggested at some point that the Earl of Wessex would be granted the dukedom of Edinburgh. If so, the same would apply about when it would be available, though whether that suggestion is still 'live' is open to question.
It is for the scottish public to decide which assertions from Osborne they believe, not the PB tories.
rofl indeed.
EVEN IF Osborne is a committed unionist and his motivation today was 100% to secure a No vote, NEVERTHELESS it still makes sense for him to stick to his position on 19 September and ever afterwards a. in order to maintain his credibility and b. for all the supremely cogent reasons advanced by him, the Treasury and all the other unpopular fops in Whitehall that a currency union is bad for rUK. What do you think is going to scare him into a currency union? additional transaction costs in our exports to the non-vast Scottish market, or what?
Eck 'n' Nick's "don't believe them" routine is the biggest hostage to fortune I have ever seen. They must have a cast-iron expectation of defeat in the ref.
The attitude and tactics of the Pro Independents on this thread really does give an answer to the question that @Richard_Nabavi asks of UKIPpers.. why not vote Conservative to get a 2017 referendum?
My answer to that is that with a pro EU Prime Minister in charge of the "IN" campaign as well as a two pro EU leaders of the other main parties, it would be difficult for BOO to be heard. Like it or not, when people in positions of authority warn of danger, the public listen.
If Tories win a maj in 2015 and there is a referendum, I can see UKIP and BOOers using the same "its not fair, we are being bullied" tactics as SNP are now, because of limited access to media/perceived media bias etc... better to wait until we can argue from a position of strength
I don't think I had an answer to this question the other day, but I was wondering what would happen if the Tories do lose the 2015GE and Cameron resigns.
Will he be replaced by a BOOer, so that official Conservative Party policy on the EU becomes identical to that of UKIP? Or is it more likely that he would be replaced by someone with the same "Yes, but..." policy as at present?
I would think that the prize for kippers is to have a Conservative PM elected in 2020 on the basis of a commitment for an EU referendum during which they would argue for withdrawal, rather than a referendum a few years earlier during which the Conservative PM would argue to stay in.
It's not like 2020 is all that far in the future. There have to be two general elections in the next six years and three months. Tomorrow it will be six years and five months since the run on Northern Rock started.
That's all very well but what if that flood prevention wasn't for gay kipper floods?
Except it turns out that what they actually voted against was the legislation - now in place - which was designed to flood parts of the Somerset levels and the fens for wildlife purposes and to limit the ability to dredge rivers in order to protect wildlife.
You really ought to read these things before posting such misleading rubbish.
I'm not remotely surprised that your interpretation of the legislation is what it is. It is EU legislation after all.
Its not my interpretation. It is fact. So much so that it is now being used by the EA and local authorities as the guidance they adhere to when drawing up plans for flood management.
This is the Environment Agency 2008 draft Catchment Flood Management Plan for the Somerset Levels.
They say:
" The European Commission has recently proposed a new directive, on the assessment and management of flood risks (the Floods Directive). The Floods Directive aims to reduce the risk to human health, the environment and economic activity associated with floods. The Directive will require the preparation of Flood Risk Management Plans (FRMPs) that will sit alongside the RBMPs prepared under the WFD.
Subject to some minor changes, we anticipate that our Catchment Flood Management Plans and Shoreline Management Plans will meet the requirements of Flood Risk Management Plans."
Even before the final Directive was passed the EA was making sure its management plans were compliant.
Note that under this plan the Somerset Levels are classed as region 6.
"Take action to increase the frequency of flooding to deliver benefits locally or elsewhere, (which may constitute an overall flood risk reduction, e.g. for habitat inundation)."
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
I never suggested that significant numbers do not. The problem with many people on this board is that people do not actually listen to what is being said. I said "Asian people often" do something, not "always" or even "mostly". I imagine your "experience" of my "perceptions" not matching reality are based on the same inaccurate interpretations of my words. Do you have specific examples of where my perceptions have not matched reality?
You seem to have ignored the countless people of South African and Australian descent in this country, who cheer for South Africa and Australia when they play England/Team GB/The Lions.
In terms of loyalty to the country/team, white South Africans have the worst record for being mercenary
Nah, Straussy, Legga and Smithy are brilliant,
Tony Greig got a bad rep, but he was no mercenary.
One of the reasons he helped set up World Series cricket was, that he had epilepsy, and needed money to look after his family.
In those days, cricketers were very poorly paid.
KP, the South African show pony is the exception not the norm.
Jade Dernabch is just shit.
I don't/didnt dislike Greig, but I reckon it would have been harder to do what he did if he were English. He made a business decision to play for England as did Pietersen. It suited them to be English for a while.
Im sure both grew up dreaming of playing for South Africa and their cricketing idols were Saffers.. Pietersen only played for us because he was a victim of positive discrimination, and Greig said as much in his interview for the Sky Saturday series, Im sure.
The Shetlanders can adopt the Norwegian Kroner - the perfect currency for trading all the oil in their islands' territorial waters.
Assuming they didn't choose to stay in the UK.
Not much oil in 12 miles of water mind you, even if there was ever a remote chance they wanted out.
It wouldn't be 12 miles. Under the current rules - the same ones that say Scotland including the Shetlands should get most of the Oilfields, even those outside your own 12 mile limit - the Shetlands would get the majority of the West of Shetlands Fields and basically everything in the Northern North Sea (Anything north of the Scottish mainland)
The Nationalists' position on here this morning has been truly absurd. How do they think that attitudes such as those shown here could possibly form the basis of a successful currency union?
Their approach seems to be that there will be a currency union because the great Salmond says so. The fact it is not in his gift is irrelevant because if they don't get it they will scweam and scweam until they're sick.
I am a unionist, heart and soul. But if Scotland did vote for independence there is no doubt in my mind that its own currency would be an essential element of a successful economy. The major banks would have to go, and probably Standard Life too. That is a legacy of the Union. No Scottish businesses could have grown so large without the benefits of the Union. Scotland as an independent country could not sustain them.
But once that was done we would have an economy where oil was a massively important component. Our currency would need to reflect that. In the rUK the oil price would be an irrelevance or even worse a contra indicator in that when the oil price was high the £ would fall and visa versa whilst Scotland would require the reverse.
So the Scottish punnet might be tied to the £ for a brief time while things got divvied up and settled down but as the Scottish economy developed it would need to break that tie in the same way as Eire did but much faster given the importance of international markets today compared with their tie.
In failing to recognise this and in having a campaign that says independence really won't be any different (apart from the odd good bit) the SNP have made a major mistake. As a unionist I am delighted.
David, you make the usual pompous unionist assumption that us having an opinion of what we believe will be the reality of the day in the event of a YES vote and your blinkered view. You may well be right but you might just as well be wrong. As stated not one person has ever said NO. They go round the houses using weasely words and as a lawyer you well know they are lying. When it is YES the reality will sharpen their minds.
Malcolm, it is just common sense. Can you really see John Swinney, as Chancellor of an independent Scotland submitting his budget to Robert Chote and Carney for prior approval before submitting it to the Scottish Parliament? I mean, is this really what all this disruption is all about?
I want us to stay in a currency union with rUK by remaining a part of the UK. But if we are going to be independent surely we must make our own decisions? What if they say no, you are spending too much? Where do we go from there?
I agree longer term but believe it will take a good few years to disentangle everything so cannot see any option but a mutual agreement in the short term.
Will he be replaced by a BOOer, so that official Conservative Party policy on the EU becomes identical to that of UKIP? Or is it more likely that he would be replaced by someone with the same "Yes, but..." policy as at present?.
That question answers itself when you consider the list of realistic candidates. These are the betting favourites, in order (most likely, according to the betting market, first):
Boris Theresa May Michael Gove Phillip Hammond William Hague George Osborne
There's then a big gap before you get to outsiders like David Davis, Jesse Norman, Nick Herbert, Grant Shapps, Liam Fox, Jeremy Hunt etc.
Now, you can quibble with the particular order of the odds (some of them look barmy to me - I mean, DD seventh favourite??), but the reality is that it's not going to be a BOOer, because there isn't one credible enough to win.
One thought occurs to me about Scottish independence – I’m not sure the monarchy would really work sitting astride two separate independent nation states (that squabble). They’d be horribly conflicted.
Well, the British monarch is also the monarch of a whole series of independent nation states: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.
However, in those cases she appoints a Governor General to represent her and perform her duties: opening of Parliament, choosing Prime Minsters, standing around looking bored while flags go up and down flagpoles...
So the interesting question is whether a Governor General is appointed for Scotland. I'm pretty sure that the SNP proposed having the Queen on a timeshare basis, but diary conflicts for meeting visiting foreign dignitaries, etc, would be a frightful bore. It might be that a variant of what you propose could be a solution.
Traditionally, the next in line for the throne is the Prince of Wales, and his brother, the spare, is the Duke of York. Perhaps Harry could inherit the title Duke of Edinburgh on the death of the present holder of that title, and start a tradition of the "spare" acting as de facto Governor General of an independent Scotland, but named as the Duke of Edinburgh to avoid offending Scottish sensibilities over being "Governed" in the manner of a colony. He would then be replaced in time by Prince George's younger brother or sister, etc.
Harry could only 'inherit' (or more accurately, be granted), the Dukedom of Edinburgh once both the current duke and the queen have died. If Prince Philip dies before the queen, Charles will inherit the title in the normal manner as eldest son of the previous holder. Only when he becomes king will it merge with the crown and be available for re-conferring.
It was suggested at some point that the Earl of Wessex would be granted the dukedom of Edinburgh. If so, the same would apply about when it would be available, though whether that suggestion is still 'live' is open to question.
Harry cannot inherit the Duchy of Edinburgh. The title has been gazetted as being destined for the Earl of Wessex on the death of his father which is why he is currently only an Earl.
However, if an English voice saying something that the SNP does not agree with is so utterly repellent to Scots in Scotland
Osborne is seen by the public as an out of touch tory just as Cammie is. The polls back that up not just in scotland but everywhere else. The entire labour election strategy will be based on exploiting that fact and if the lib dem's hadn't thrown their lot in with Cammie they would be too. Your pitiful retreat into a bigotry smear is as telling as your head in the sand clueless predictions of Romney winning the U.S. election.
OK.
lol - best response of the week!
He didn't like the facts pointed out to him anymore than you do. SO is certainly making some adorable friends with his relentless pushing of Osborne's spin.
Mick, I have to say SO is the only non NAT on here stating there will be a currency union , he has a differing opinion to us on how it may look but he is very realistic and does not follow the herd.
If I were a Scot I would want independence, If the Westminster politicians were telling me that having my country's monetary policy dictated from London would not be an option I would be delighted. So why all the fuss and bad temper?
They are upset because the reality of separation as outlined by Osborne (and Carney, Balls, Alexander, Darling, everyone else in the Real World) doesn't match the fantasy that Eck has sold them
They have just found out that Monetary Santa Claus isn't real.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
I never suggested that significant numbers do not. The problem with many people on this board is that people do not actually listen to what is being said. I said "Asian people often" do something, not "always" or even "mostly". I imagine your "experience" of my "perceptions" not matching reality are based on the same inaccurate interpretations of my words. Do you have specific examples of where my perceptions have not matched reality?
You seem to have ignored the countless people of South African and Australian descent in this country, who cheer for South Africa and Australia when they play England/Team GB/The Lions.
I've met South Africans and Australians in the UK, but I don't think I've ever met someone who has been second or third generation that still supports their team. As I don't know many second or third generation South Africans or Aussies, I don't have much knowledge here, however.
There is a history of complex gazetting of titles within the Royal Family when adjusting the original Letters Patent. The Earldom of Selkirk was adjusted so that it passes to the 2nd son of the current Duke of Hamilton if the holder of the Earldom of Selkirk dies with no relevant heir. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton somewhat bizarrely had to fight against a cousin in the courts to secure the title in 1995-6 and then immediately disclaimed it on winning so he could remain an MP. On being created a Life Peer he took the title Lord Selkirk of Douglas
I've asked this before on Scotland threads but don't think I've ever got an answer.
What changes do SNP supporters predict in Scotland following a yes vote? What differences would there be between a Scotland in 2025 following a yes vote and a Scotland in 2025 following a no vote?
My hope and belief is for starters:
We will make more decisions on what policies we want to have we will still have an NHS we will have a constitution we will have better health and reduced poverty we will have a fairer society No weapons of mass destruction no illegal wars
We will make more decisions on what policies we want to have we will still have an NHS we will have a constitution we will have better health and reduced poverty we will have a fairer society No weapons of mass destruction no illegal wars
Ah, you're a LibDem!
(I suppose you realise, BTW, that health is already a devolved matter?)
Easy mistake for PB tories to make on here admittedly.
Mick do you really think an English prime minister of any stripe would consent to a currency union?
You may be right that we don;t understand Scottish politics, but if you think a currency union is a goer in rUK then maybe you don;t understand English politics.
We understand, they will take whatever option keeps them in power , grubby , nasty or not.
Tony Greig got a bad rep, but he was no mercenary.
One of the reasons he helped set up World Series cricket was, that he had epilepsy, and needed money to look after his family.
In those days, cricketers were very poorly paid.
KP, the South African show pony is the exception not the norm.
Jade Dernabch is just shit.
I don't/didnt dislike Greig, but I reckon it would have been harder to do what he did if he were English. He made a business decision to play for England as did Pietersen. It suited them to be English for a while.
Im sure both grew up dreaming of playing for South Africa and their cricketing idols were Saffers.. Pietersen only played for us because he was a victim of positive discrimination, and Greig said as much in his interview for the Sky Saturday series, Im sure.
-------------------------- I don't know much about the ins and outs of English Cricket. However Pietersen has the last laugh, as he signed up to play in India for a cool £1.5 million. I think the present guys who run English cricket have treated Pietersen shabbily (Shittily).
Reading Osborne's speech it is obvious what his game is , if you look past the bluster and lies. Just trying to threaten us as ever. However it is rump UK really starting negotiations albeit by threats but they are obviously worried to have broken their " no pre-negotiations before a YES". Now that reality is biting they are starting to show their hand and lo and behold it is threats only.
We will make more decisions on what policies we want to have we will still have an NHS we will have a constitution we will have better health and reduced poverty we will have a fairer society No weapons of mass destruction no illegal wars
Ah, you're a LibDem!
(I suppose you realise, BTW, that health is already a devolved matter?)
Tied to Barnett which all unionists have said will be slashed so not really really devolved.
Interesting tweet I have just spotted: Stephen Woods @Stephen_Woods Turnout is up for this time of day Wythenshawe & Sale East, Conservative support holding up far better than the press would have you believe
Or...UKIP is doing better than expected if these Tories are lending them their vote this time!
Yes, interesting since he's nothing to gain by saying something that's disproved a few hours later. It's quite possible that the Tories will have done a quietly efficient job in Sale and will hold 2nd.
In my experience, black people born in England are pretty happy to call themselves English, and would refer to the native population as "white". It is generally people of Asian descent that use terms like "he married an English" etc. I wonder if it's related to sports. Black people usually support the English football team, rather than Jamaica or Nigeria; but Asian people often support the Pakistani or Indian cricket teams.
You really do need to meet more people of Asian descent.
I said "often", not "always". Do you really deny that significant numbers of English Asians support the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan teams above England?
No, but a significant number people of Asian descent cheer for England over the nations of the forefathers and foremothers experience has taught me, your perceptions when it comes to Asians do not always match the reality.
Personally I cheer for Denmark over England at football. And TV crime series. And little triangular oblong aniseed cakes. But Shredded Wheat is much nicer than Danish breakfast. Difficult stuff, these patriotic tests.
I do not understand why my SNP chums can't simply accept that if as a country we vote for independence on 18th September, the political class in the remainder of the UK will adopt a position which best suits their chances of re-election next year. The US Federal Reserve doesn't provide lender of last resort to the many countries which peg their currency to or use the US dollar. So too will it be with Scotland. We may use the pound sterling but if RBS goes "tits up" again, London wont be bailing us out.
I do not understand why my SNP chums can't simply accept that if as a country we vote for independence on 18th September, the political class in the remainder of the UK will adopt a position which best suits their chances of re-election next year. The US Federal Reserve doesn't provide lender of last resort to the many countries which peg their currency to or use the US dollar. So too will it be with Scotland. We may use the pound sterling but if RBS goes "tits up" again, London wont be bailing us out.
I do not understand why my SNP chums can't simply accept that if as a country we vote for independence on 18th September, the political class in the remainder of the UK will adopt a position which best suits their chances of re-election next year. The US Federal Reserve doesn't provide lender of last resort to the many countries which peg their currency to or use the US dollar. So too will it be with Scotland. We may use the pound sterling but if RBS goes "tits up" again, London wont be bailing us out.
Read John jappy on who really bails the banks out and why, fascinating and nothing (or at a push very little) to do with country of origin of bank.
Reading Osborne's speech it is obvious what his game is , if you look past the bluster and lies. Just trying to threaten us as ever. However it is rump UK really starting negotiations albeit by threats but they are obviously worried to have broken their " no pre-negotiations before a YES". Now that reality is biting they are starting to show their hand and lo and behold it is threats only.
Comparing London actions with Ottowa against Quebac in the 1970's is like watching the same approach and excuses with a 40 year gap. They admitted it was all BS too in the end.
Comments
I lived/live and work in Manchester, I wanted to get tickets to the Ashes test match, and it was easier to get tickets if you're a county member. Plus membership gets you free entrance to the 20/20 matches, and it is great to see Yorkshire beat Lancashire at Old Trafford.
I mean, I still cheer for Yorkshire.
My profile picture tells you were my loyalties lie.
@Mick_Pork says Sturgeon wins!
@JackW says she flounders...
Who is right.. there's only one way to find out...WATCH!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26175401
I also notice that largely they note net benefit of UK's membership of the EU.
No surprise to any of us not bought into the EU is baaaad hysteria.
Patrick O'Flynn is very quiet on his Twitter timeline preferring to harrumph instead about the withholding of the part about free movement.
Withheld probably because it too will largely come down on the side of it being a benefit and the Tories can't have that given the swirl of anti-immigrant propaganda upon which they hope to gain re-election.
http://ukip.org/newsroom/news/1161-tory-council-charges-residents-for-sandbags
Which is what the SNP could be telling the rest of us now, were it not for this catastrophically misjudged currency union proposal.
Salmond will still have a currency problem. What's his Option 3?
LOL
It really is worth a read. He says re currency union:
"People need to know – that is not going to happen.
Because sharing the pound is not in the interests of either the people of Scotland or the rest of the UK.
The people of the rest of the UK wouldn’t accept it
and Parliament wouldn’t pass it.
This issue more than any other exposes the gaping chasm at the core of the plans to separate Scotland from the rest of the UK.
People in Scotland are being asked to accept two diametrically opposite things at the same time.
That with independence everything in Scotland will change
and at the same time nothing will change.
It simply doesn’t add up for the Scottish government.
If Scotland walks away from the UK, it walks away from the Pound."
No doubt the response will be yet more personal abuse thrown at Osborne, about how unpopular the tories are in Scotland, Pandas and other such things.
But the personal abuse is not an answer to the argument. There isn't one. Osborne points out that the last attempt at currency union when countries went their own way, Czech and Slovakia, lasted 33 days. That might be on the optimistic side here.
For the working classes, it might be a different story.
So the number of acquittals/split juries might actually be an indication of the jury system working as it should- judging the case on the evidence and, if the prosecution can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt, acquitting.
Mick do you really think an English prime minister of any stripe would consent to a currency union?
You may be right that we don;t understand Scottish politics, but if you think a currency union is a goer in rUK then maybe you don;t understand English politics.
Historically around Europe each country had their own and if a monarch reigned in more than one country it was a thing leading towards unification or absorption. Never the other way around.
I can absolutely understand the Scots wanting continuity and keeping the Windsor line on their throne. So what I would propose is this: When Liz pops her clogs we skip a generation and William becomes King of England and Harry becomes King of Scotland. What’s not to like! It would be a riot.
Either way an independent Scotland is heading for the Euro at some point.
The Spanish won't like it much but they'll negotiate something out the EU for it like turning a blind eye to the state aid they give to Real Madrid, maybe not Barcelona though.
Stephen Woods @Stephen_Woods
Turnout is up for this time of day Wythenshawe & Sale East, Conservative support holding up far better than the press would have you believe
Hmm she might have agreed to that 'code', she was quite anti-muslim to be honest.
Citeh fans are great, they even more pessimistic than Spurs fans,
Utd fans are still traumatised by assessment that Danny Wellbeck is a poor man's Emile Heskey.
It is absolutely no surprise that a government in favour of continued EU membership will produce reports that support that view.
Also interesting that in the report on the Environment they completely fail to address the rather current issue of EU rules preventing proper flood alleviation. Indeed the only reference in the whole document to flooding is to mention that the Floods Directive 2007/60/EC is not appropriate to conditions in the British isles.
The only good thing about these reports is that we can now use them to highlight just how much the EU interferes in almost every aspect of our lives after years of the Eurofanatics denying it was the case.
The argument is watertight, but I think we have all accepted it now. Could you say something new, do you think?
rofl
My answer to that is that with a pro EU Prime Minister in charge of the "IN" campaign as well as a two pro EU leaders of the other main parties, it would be difficult for BOO to be heard. Like it or not, when people in positions of authority warn of danger, the public listen.
If Tories win a maj in 2015 and there is a referendum, I can see UKIP and BOOers using the same "its not fair, we are being bullied" tactics as SNP are now, because of limited access to media/perceived media bias etc... better to wait until we can argue from a position of strength
Maybe so but a code of conduct applied to herself to monitor her 'integration'?
I wouldn't imagine she would find that quite so palatable.
Not really, but I trust the rest of the party to hold him to a referendum in the unlikely event of a con government.
And I trust his instincts of self preservation above principle.
So I suppose that's a kind of yes!
It is for the scottish public to decide which assertions from Osborne they believe, not the PB tories.
rofl indeed.
Dig, dig, dig
Isn't that a famous paradox?
Salmond does not have an argument. He asserts so it is true. God like, if you like.
Except it turns out that what they actually voted against was the legislation - now in place - which was designed to flood parts of the Somerset levels and the fens for wildlife purposes and to limit the ability to dredge rivers in order to protect wildlife.
You really ought to read these things before posting such misleading rubbish.
However, in those cases she appoints a Governor General to represent her and perform her duties: opening of Parliament, choosing Prime Minsters, standing around looking bored while flags go up and down flagpoles...
So the interesting question is whether a Governor General is appointed for Scotland. I'm pretty sure that the SNP proposed having the Queen on a timeshare basis, but diary conflicts for meeting visiting foreign dignitaries, etc, would be a frightful bore. It might be that a variant of what you propose could be a solution.
Traditionally, the next in line for the throne is the Prince of Wales, and his brother, the spare, is the Duke of York. Perhaps Harry could inherit the title Duke of Edinburgh on the death of the present holder of that title, and start a tradition of the "spare" acting as de facto Governor General of an independent Scotland, but named as the Duke of Edinburgh to avoid offending Scottish sensibilities over being "Governed" in the manner of a colony. He would then be replaced in time by Prince George's younger brother or sister, etc.
I wouldn't mind them being frit if they were honest about it, but for years they've been going on and on about what a betrayal it is that they haven't been offered a referendum. Now that their bluff has been called, they're apparently willing to wreck all the progress that has been made in all the other fields, and also wreck the possibility of getting at least some alleviation of the EU problem through renegotiation, in order to avoid a referendum.
I have never met a Chinese person who supports the Indian cricket team. And I have met a few.
"EU rules require every member state to have a central bank"
There goes the dollarisation route...
Tony Greig got a bad rep, but he was no mercenary.
One of the reasons he helped set up World Series cricket was, that he had epilepsy, and needed money to look after his family.
In those days, cricketers were very poorly paid.
KP, the South African show pony is the exception not the norm.
Jade Dernabch is just shit.
And "Lord Navits" wins me £55 at Leicester
Except it turns out that what they actually voted against was the legislation - now in place - which was designed to flood parts of the Somerset levels and the fens for wildlife purposes and to limit the ability to dredge rivers in order to protect wildlife.
You really ought to read these things before posting such misleading rubbish.
I'm not remotely surprised that your interpretation of the legislation is what it is.
It is EU legislation after all.
Mr. G, I don't blame you. If you'd written something silly about Hannibal being inferior to Caesar I'm sure I would've responded.
I do plan on becoming obscenely wealthy. Hard to do with writing, but I'm optimistic.
But the thing I most remember from our conversation, he pointed out Barbados' population was the size of a London Borough, and yet it had produced the following cricketers, some of whom were the best in the history of cricket
Sir Garfield Sobers, Sir Frank Worrell, Sir Clyde Walcott, Sir Everton Weekes, Gordon Greenidge, Wes Hall, Charlie Griffith Joel Garner and Malcolm Marshall.
He said, beat that Croydon.
If Scotland think they can leave the UK without paying any debts, perhaps the rest of the UK should leave at the same time.
You can't say you weren't warned.
It was suggested at some point that the Earl of Wessex would be granted the dukedom of Edinburgh. If so, the same would apply about when it would be available, though whether that suggestion is still 'live' is open to question.
Eck 'n' Nick's "don't believe them" routine is the biggest hostage to fortune I have ever seen. They must have a cast-iron expectation of defeat in the ref.
Will he be replaced by a BOOer, so that official Conservative Party policy on the EU becomes identical to that of UKIP? Or is it more likely that he would be replaced by someone with the same "Yes, but..." policy as at present?
I would think that the prize for kippers is to have a Conservative PM elected in 2020 on the basis of a commitment for an EU referendum during which they would argue for withdrawal, rather than a referendum a few years earlier during which the Conservative PM would argue to stay in.
It's not like 2020 is all that far in the future. There have to be two general elections in the next six years and three months. Tomorrow it will be six years and five months since the run on Northern Rock started.
You really ought to read these things before posting such misleading rubbish.
I'm not remotely surprised that your interpretation of the legislation is what it is.
It is EU legislation after all.
Its not my interpretation. It is fact. So much so that it is now being used by the EA and local authorities as the guidance they adhere to when drawing up plans for flood management.
This is the Environment Agency 2008 draft Catchment Flood Management Plan for the Somerset Levels.
They say:
" The European Commission has recently proposed a new directive, on the assessment and management of flood risks (the Floods Directive). The Floods Directive aims to reduce the risk to human health, the environment and economic activity associated with floods. The Directive will require the preparation of Flood Risk Management Plans (FRMPs) that will sit alongside the RBMPs prepared under the WFD.
Subject to some minor changes, we anticipate that our Catchment Flood Management Plans and Shoreline Management Plans will meet the requirements of Flood Risk Management Plans."
Even before the final Directive was passed the EA was making sure its management plans were compliant.
Note that under this plan the Somerset Levels are classed as region 6.
"Take action to increase the frequency of flooding to deliver benefits locally or elsewhere,
(which may constitute an overall flood risk reduction, e.g. for habitat inundation)."
Im sure both grew up dreaming of playing for South Africa and their cricketing idols were Saffers.. Pietersen only played for us because he was a victim of positive discrimination, and Greig said as much in his interview for the Sky Saturday series, Im sure.
Boris
Theresa May
Michael Gove
Phillip Hammond
William Hague
George Osborne
There's then a big gap before you get to outsiders like David Davis, Jesse Norman, Nick Herbert, Grant Shapps, Liam Fox, Jeremy Hunt etc.
Now, you can quibble with the particular order of the odds (some of them look barmy to me - I mean, DD seventh favourite??), but the reality is that it's not going to be a BOOer, because there isn't one credible enough to win.
We will make more decisions on what policies we want to have
we will still have an NHS
we will have a constitution
we will have better health and reduced poverty
we will have a fairer society
No weapons of mass destruction
no illegal wars
We will have none of these in the UK
(I suppose you realise, BTW, that health is already a devolved matter?)
One of the reasons he helped set up World Series cricket was, that he had epilepsy, and needed money to look after his family.
In those days, cricketers were very poorly paid.
KP, the South African show pony is the exception not the norm.
Jade Dernabch is just shit.
I don't/didnt dislike Greig, but I reckon it would have been harder to do what he did if he were English. He made a business decision to play for England as did Pietersen. It suited them to be English for a while.
Im sure both grew up dreaming of playing for South Africa and their cricketing idols were Saffers.. Pietersen only played for us because he was a victim of positive discrimination, and Greig said as much in his interview for the Sky Saturday series, Im sure.
--------------------------
I don't know much about the ins and outs of English Cricket. However Pietersen has the last laugh, as he signed up to play in India for a cool £1.5 million. I think the present guys who run English cricket have treated Pietersen shabbily (Shittily).
Now that reality is biting they are starting to show their hand and lo and behold it is threats only.