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My grand daughter was told at school that on going to university it would not cost her anything and not to worry about fees as they have no responsibity for them after the age of 30FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....schools should really be educating kids on the realities of the system and what they will be repaying under various scenarios. For the vast majority, fees of £6k vs £9k will have zero impact on their future repayments.
Seems utterly irresponsible advice from the school0 -
Talking of university funding.
The University of Cambridge has been given a record-breaking £100million by a billionaire philanthropist to help it attract the most talented students from the UK and abroad.
The gift from the David and Claudia Harding Foundation will fund scholarships for PhD students, support undergraduates and help to encourage applications from under-represented groups.
It is biggest single gift made to a university in the UK by a British philanthropist.
After graduating from Cambridge in 1982, with a first class honours degree in natural sciences specialising in theoretical physics, David Harding made his fortune - which the Sunday Time Rich List puts at around £1billion - as a hedge fund manager.
https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/education/billionaire-philanthropist-gives-record-breaking-100m-donation-to-university-of-cambridge-9061039/0 -
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I’m slightly out of touch with the right order of slogans now, are we converging on ‘a bad deal is better than no deal, and any deal, no matter how bad, is better than no Brexit?’Big_G_NorthWales said:
So be it. But the Country has to prevent a no deal with a deal. It is upto the HOC to deal with this and not held hostage by the DUP or the ERG, no matter what the consequencesgypsumfantastic said:DUP's Sammy Wilson says his party will not back the #Brexit deal unless the backstop is removed, as it "does not honour [Theresa May's] own manifesto or the outcome of the referendum"
Note: *removed*. Not assurances, not a time limit, not a codicil, not an exchange of letters, not a unilateral exit mechanism. REMOVED.
The DUP are signalling they cannot and will not support the May backstop under any configuration or circumstance.
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/10927604503311605770 -
The DUP are ignoring their own voters who want a soft Brexit . Sammy Wilson is the worst of the bunch . It’s a disgrace that the DUP are holding the country hostage . I really hope their disgusting behaviour backfires.0
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He is not a concern for me - he will not see officegypsumfantastic said:
So you're saying Jeremy Corbyn is our last, best hope?Big_G_NorthWales said:
So be it. But the Country has to prevent a no deal with a deal. It is upto the HOC to deal with this and not held hostage by the DUP or the ERG, no matter what the consequences0 -
Did they actually say that, or did she mishear? It isn't age of 30, it is 30 years after graduation.Big_G_NorthWales said:
My grand daughter was told at school that on going to university it would not cost her anything and not to worry about fees as they have no responsibity for them after the age of 30FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....schools should really be educating kids on the realities of the system and what they will be repaying under various scenarios. For the vast majority, fees of £6k vs £9k will have zero impact on their future repayments.
Seems utterly irresponsible advice from the school
To be honest, I hear so many of my supposed educated friends who are parents talk absolute nonsense about what the uni fees system is. I get tired of informing them they are wrong and what the actual deal is.0 -
A graduate tax. A couple of points on the higher rate for those that have completed their undergraduate degrees. Simple, fair, cost effective, doesn't discriminate against poor children, doesn't disincentivize study, doesn't require complex additional machinery to operate.Pulpstar said:
Justine Greening's solution looked sensible enough to be fair.FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....
It's so obvious it's the one thing we'll never do.0 -
He takes his bigotry to a new level.OldKingCole said:
He's a DUP MP; what do you expect? It really is difficult for those who haven't had even the tiny amount of experience of it that I've had, to appreciate the anti-Catholic hostility in some Unionists.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd expect anti (Northern) Irish sentiment to increase in Great Britain.FrancisUrquhart said:
Better get stocked up on bog roll, no deal exit here we come.gypsumfantastic said:DUP's Sammy Wilson says his party will not back the #Brexit deal unless the backstop is removed, as it "does not honour [Theresa May's] own manifesto or the outcome of the referendum"
Note: *removed*. Not assurances, not a time limit, not a codicil, not an exchange of letters, not a unilateral exit mechanism. REMOVED.
The DUP are signalling they cannot and will not support the May backstop under any configuration or circumstance.
twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1092760450331160577
Personally if I was Theresa May I'd tell the DUP that if No Deal happens then she'll trigger an Irish unity referendum.
God I hate Sammy Wilson, the man's an anti Catholic bigot.
In January 1994, the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) released a document calling for ethnic cleansing and repartition of Ireland, with the goal of making Northern Ireland wholly Protestant.[10][11] The plan was to be implemented should the British Army withdraw from Northern Ireland. Some areas with strong Catholic/nationalist majorities near the Irish border would be handed over to the Republic of Ireland, and those Catholics left stranded in the "Protestant state" would be "expelled, nullified, or interned".[10] Controversially, Wilson called the plan a "very valuable return to reality". He added: "[it] shows that some loyalist paramilitaries are looking ahead and contemplating what needs to be done to maintain our separate Ulster identity".[10]
https://tinyurl.com/y7hf9gdk0 -
Let's see if they like a GENERAL ELECTION up em!gypsumfantastic said:DUP's Sammy Wilson says his party will not back the #Brexit deal unless the backstop is removed, as it "does not honour [Theresa May's] own manifesto or the outcome of the referendum"
Note: *removed*. Not assurances, not a time limit, not a codicil, not an exchange of letters, not a unilateral exit mechanism. REMOVED.
The DUP are signalling they cannot and will not support the May backstop under any configuration or circumstance.0 -
Well that's essentially what we have now, except there is an upper cap on the amount you are required to pay back.gypsumfantastic said:
A graduate tax. A couple of points on the higher rate for those that have completed their undergraduate degrees. Simple, fair, cost effective, doesn't discriminate against poor children, doesn't disincentivize study, doesn't require complex additional machinery to operate.Pulpstar said:
Justine Greening's solution looked sensible enough to be fair.FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....
It's so obvious it's the one thing we'll never do.
The issue is actually on the supplier end. Some courses are more expensive to run than the max fees (and they often are the ones we need more graduates in), lots of crappy unis put on shit courses that are cheap to run and get away with charging the same, etc.0 -
So, much the same as Clem Attlee but without the 100,000 deaths.TheScreamingEagles said:He takes his bigotry to a new level.
In January 1994, the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) released a document calling for ethnic cleansing and repartition of Ireland, with the goal of making Northern Ireland wholly Protestant.[10][11] The plan was to be implemented should the British Army withdraw from Northern Ireland. Some areas with strong Catholic/nationalist majorities near the Irish border would be handed over to the Republic of Ireland, and those Catholics left stranded in the "Protestant state" would be "expelled, nullified, or interned".[10] Controversially, Wilson called the plan a "very valuable return to reality". He added: "[it] shows that some loyalist paramilitaries are looking ahead and contemplating what needs to be done to maintain our separate Ulster identity".[10]
https://tinyurl.com/y7hf9gdk0 -
If that's what it takes to kill the May backstop for good, you know the mad bastards will do it.kinabalu said:
Let's see if they like a GENERAL ELECTION up em!gypsumfantastic said:DUP's Sammy Wilson says his party will not back the #Brexit deal unless the backstop is removed, as it "does not honour [Theresa May's] own manifesto or the outcome of the referendum"
Note: *removed*. Not assurances, not a time limit, not a codicil, not an exchange of letters, not a unilateral exit mechanism. REMOVED.
The DUP are signalling they cannot and will not support the May backstop under any configuration or circumstance.0 -
And how many Oxbridge, Russell and ex-1994 group universities would be amongst these shutting down ?FrancisUrquhart said:
The problem with her solution wasn't on the student end (as it wouldn't have really made any difference regards what they paid, it was really just a rebranding), it was the unis end. It would result in lots of unis shutting down, if you think that is a good or bad thing is another matter.Pulpstar said:
Justine Greening's solution looked sensible enough to be fair.FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....
Obviously the graduate tax shouldn't be applied to current graduates as that'd be the most horrendous form of effective lifetime double taxation.0 -
This is going to ruin Brexit backing farmers right?
Brexit: Import tariffs could be slashed to zero under 'extraordinarily damaging' no-deal plan being considered.
Tariffs would be slashed to zero on all imports after a no-deal Brexit, under “extraordinarily damaging” plans being considered by the government.
Labour said the move would trigger “serious job losses in key industries from ceramics to farming”, by unilaterally opening up domestic markets to dramatically cheaper goods.
The GMB union condemned the idea as “the ultimate Brexit betrayal” – while the National Farmers’ Union said the impact “would be “absolutely savage”.
Nevertheless, the department for international trade confirmed scrapping tariffs is among “all options” being considered if the UK crashes out of the EU without an agreement.
Ministers fear failing to slash duties would sent prices soaring in the shops and hit UK producers who depend on supply chains from the EU.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-import-tariffs-goods-customs-farming-market-theresa-may-a8763901.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter0 -
It's not an open and shut case. Professor Paul Bew thinks the backstop proposal breaches the GFA, and he is not at all sympathetic to the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You speak with such legal certainty, no doubt as a lawyer, but others on here are not as sure of the outcomeDadge said:
Not explicitly part of the GFA, but it was written/agreed on the basis that the UK and Ireland were both members of the EU. The courts will recognise this and that the backstop is a good-faith compromise designed to protect the GFA and that Trimble's intervention is in bad faith.David_Evershed said:
Avoidinginfrastructure on the border is not part of the GFA. The backstop is not designed to comply with the GFA but to avoid infrastructure.Dadge said:
Since the backstop is explicitly designed to protect the GFA, Trimble will be laughed out of court. His intervention is serving only to further muddy the waters; I assume that is his real intention.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sensible conclusion.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
I think Lord Trimble's court case will give a clear view whether the backstop is an actual legal construct or not. If the Court finds it contravenes the GFA then the Irish and the EU would be in breach of the agreement and that almost certainly will result in panic by them, and a different solution being found
If it is as open and shut a case, as you judge, why would Lord Trimble seek a judicial review. He is an expert himself on Irish matters0 -
I was picking her up from school and she spoke to her Mum on her phone in the car and those were her words and I was very surprised. She is very switched on and academically clever and I really do believe that is what she was told. The stark impression she gave me was that she had been effectively told there are virtually no cost implications going to Uni and to be fair, she was very excited as a resultFrancisUrquhart said:
Did they actually say that, or did she mishear? It isn't age of 30, it is 30 years after graduation.Big_G_NorthWales said:
My grand daughter was told at school that on going to university it would not cost her anything and not to worry about fees as they have no responsibity for them after the age of 30FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....schools should really be educating kids on the realities of the system and what they will be repaying under various scenarios. For the vast majority, fees of £6k vs £9k will have zero impact on their future repayments.
Seems utterly irresponsible advice from the school
To be honest, I hear so many of my supposed educated friends who are parents talk absolute nonsense about what the uni fees system is. I get tired of informing them they are wrong and what the actual deal is.0 -
The DUP hate the EU for a number of reasons.TheScreamingEagles said:
He takes his bigotry to a new level.
In January 1994, the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) released a document calling for ethnic cleansing and repartition of Ireland, with the goal of making Northern Ireland wholly Protestant.[10][11] The plan was to be implemented should the British Army withdraw from Northern Ireland. Some areas with strong Catholic/nationalist majorities near the Irish border would be handed over to the Republic of Ireland, and those Catholics left stranded in the "Protestant state" would be "expelled, nullified, or interned".[10] Controversially, Wilson called the plan a "very valuable return to reality". He added: "[it] shows that some loyalist paramilitaries are looking ahead and contemplating what needs to be done to maintain our separate Ulster identity".[10]
https://tinyurl.com/y7hf9gdk
1) It has lots of catholics in it.
2) The Republic of Ireland likes it.
3) They suspect it might be the "third roman empire" mentioned in the book of revelations, to one of whose princes will be born the antichrist.
4) They have made a legitimate and peaceful request for cheese and pineapple on a stick.0 -
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There would be some interesting quirks, such as the impact on those with high levels of taxable income on inherited wealth. Also not clear it should be uncapped - though I guess putting it on the higher (40%) rate only and leaving the additional (45%) rate unchanged might help. And I guess it would incentivise graduates to focus on careers in private equity so they could divert as much of their return into capital gains rather than income.... and so on.gypsumfantastic said:
A graduate tax. A couple of points on the higher rate for those that have completed their undergraduate degrees. Simple, fair, cost effective, doesn't discriminate against poor children, doesn't disincentivize study, doesn't require complex additional machinery to operate.Pulpstar said:
Justine Greening's solution looked sensible enough to be fair.FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....
It's so obvious it's the one thing we'll never do.0 -
Oh square root of f##k all top ranked unis would be closing, as the system would be effectively KOTH (king of the hill). I don't particularly have an issue, but try selling that to the public when little Johnny who has worked so so hard to get his 3 C's can't get a uni place.Pulpstar said:
And how many Oxbridge, Russell and ex-1994 group universities would be amongst these shutting down ?FrancisUrquhart said:
The problem with her solution wasn't on the student end (as it wouldn't have really made any difference regards what they paid, it was really just a rebranding), it was the unis end. It would result in lots of unis shutting down, if you think that is a good or bad thing is another matter.Pulpstar said:
Justine Greening's solution looked sensible enough to be fair.FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....
Obviously the graduate tax shouldn't be applied to current graduates as that'd be the most horrendous form of effective lifetime double taxation.
My take has always been, we need a much more flexible approach to higher education. I have no issue with elitism for full time courses, what we need is a lot more part time combined with work (while still living locally) type courses.0 -
If successful, these arguments can only lead to the conclusion that Brexit itself breaches the GFA.Sean_F said:
It's not an open and shut case. Professor Paul Bew thinks the backstop proposal breaches the GFA, and he is not at all sympathetic to the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You speak with such legal certainty, no doubt as a lawyer, but others on here are not as sure of the outcomeDadge said:
Not explicitly part of the GFA, but it was written/agreed on the basis that the UK and Ireland were both members of the EU. The courts will recognise this and that the backstop is a good-faith compromise designed to protect the GFA and that Trimble's intervention is in bad faith.David_Evershed said:
Avoidinginfrastructure on the border is not part of the GFA. The backstop is not designed to comply with the GFA but to avoid infrastructure.Dadge said:
Since the backstop is explicitly designed to protect the GFA, Trimble will be laughed out of court. His intervention is serving only to further muddy the waters; I assume that is his real intention.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sensible conclusion.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
I think Lord Trimble's court case will give a clear view whether the backstop is an actual legal construct or not. If the Court finds it contravenes the GFA then the Irish and the EU would be in breach of the agreement and that almost certainly will result in panic by them, and a different solution being found
If it is as open and shut a case, as you judge, why would Lord Trimble seek a judicial review. He is an expert himself on Irish matters0 -
Ah, my cue...kinabalu said:
Well all bets will be off in that case.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sensible conclusion.
I think Lord Trimble's court case will give a clear view whether the backstop is an actual legal construct or not. If the Court finds it contravenes the GFA then the Irish and the EU would be in breach of the agreement and that almost certainly will result in panic by them, and a different solution being found
Although not literally unfortunately. There will be some very sore punters.
(Strides on stage, clears throat)
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH! STUPID MOTHERFU [ that's enough - Ed ]
0 -
Actually I think it should be applied to current graduates, but that any student loan repayments should be counted against it.Pulpstar said:
And how many Oxbridge, Russell and ex-1994 group universities would be amongst these shutting down ?FrancisUrquhart said:
The problem with her solution wasn't on the student end (as it wouldn't have really made any difference regards what they paid, it was really just a rebranding), it was the unis end. It would result in lots of unis shutting down, if you think that is a good or bad thing is another matter.Pulpstar said:
Justine Greening's solution looked sensible enough to be fair.FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....
Obviously the graduate tax shouldn't be applied to current graduates as that'd be the most horrendous form of effective lifetime double taxation.0 -
Although it has already been ruled that Brexit does not do so.williamglenn said:
If successful, these arguments can only lead to the conclusion that Brexit itself breaches the GFA.Sean_F said:
It's not an open and shut case. Professor Paul Bew thinks the backstop proposal breaches the GFA, and he is not at all sympathetic to the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You speak with such legal certainty, no doubt as a lawyer, but others on here are not as sure of the outcomeDadge said:
Not explicitly part of the GFA, but it was written/agreed on the basis that the UK and Ireland were both members of the EU. The courts will recognise this and that the backstop is a good-faith compromise designed to protect the GFA and that Trimble's intervention is in bad faith.David_Evershed said:
Avoidinginfrastructure on the border is not part of the GFA. The backstop is not designed to comply with the GFA but to avoid infrastructure.Dadge said:
Since the backstop is explicitly designed to protect the GFA, Trimble will be laughed out of court. His intervention is serving only to further muddy the waters; I assume that is his real intention.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sensible conclusion.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
I think Lord Trimble's court case will give a clear view whether the backstop is an actual legal construct or not. If the Court finds it contravenes the GFA then the Irish and the EU would be in breach of the agreement and that almost certainly will result in panic by them, and a different solution being found
If it is as open and shut a case, as you judge, why would Lord Trimble seek a judicial review. He is an expert himself on Irish matters0 -
I think I pointed this out yesterday - it really wouldn't surprise me if it was...williamglenn said:
If successful, these arguments can only lead to the conclusion that Brexit itself breaches the GFA.Sean_F said:
It's not an open and shut case. Professor Paul Bew thinks the backstop proposal breaches the GFA, and he is not at all sympathetic to the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You speak with such legal certainty, no doubt as a lawyer, but others on here are not as sure of the outcomeDadge said:
Not explicitly part of the GFA, but it was written/agreed on the basis that the UK and Ireland were both members of the EU. The courts will recognise this and that the backstop is a good-faith compromise designed to protect the GFA and that Trimble's intervention is in bad faith.David_Evershed said:
Avoidinginfrastructure on the border is not part of the GFA. The backstop is not designed to comply with the GFA but to avoid infrastructure.Dadge said:
Since the backstop is explicitly designed to protect the GFA, Trimble will be laughed out of court. His intervention is serving only to further muddy the waters; I assume that is his real intention.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sensible conclusion.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
I think Lord Trimble's court case will give a clear view whether the backstop is an actual legal construct or not. If the Court finds it contravenes the GFA then the Irish and the EU would be in breach of the agreement and that almost certainly will result in panic by them, and a different solution being found
If it is as open and shut a case, as you judge, why would Lord Trimble seek a judicial review. He is an expert himself on Irish matters0 -
I'd be amazed if anybody were able to define "brexit" unambiguously enough that lawyers won't be feeding off its carcass for decades.Sean_F said:
Although it has already been ruled that Brexit does not do so.0 -
Have it mutually terminateable on notice.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how long.
One thing that IS known is that the deal will include arrangements which ensure an open border in Ireland - an implicit requirement of the Good Friday Agreement. The UK and the EU are committed to this and there is no reason to doubt the commitment of either.
The problem is therefore one of timing. The deal will probably not be done by the time that the transition period runs out. A stop gap solution (to ensure an open border) is therefore needed for the period between end of transition and the deal being implemented.
The UK and the EU have agreed such a stop gap for this interim period. The UK will remain in the Customs Union and Northern Ireland will in addition remain aligned to the Single Market. This arrangement will be superseded in due course by the deal - which might or might not involve a technological border solution.
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
That’s all it takes0 -
Re 3. I often wonder if it had been the Treaty of Bonn rather than Rome if the opposition would be so virulent.gypsumfantastic said:
The DUP hate the EU for a number of reasons.TheScreamingEagles said:
He takes his bigotry to a new level.
In January 1994, the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) released a document calling for ethnic cleansing and repartition of Ireland, with the goal of making Northern Ireland wholly Protestant.[10][11] The plan was to be implemented should the British Army withdraw from Northern Ireland. Some areas with strong Catholic/nationalist majorities near the Irish border would be handed over to the Republic of Ireland, and those Catholics left stranded in the "Protestant state" would be "expelled, nullified, or interned".[10] Controversially, Wilson called the plan a "very valuable return to reality". He added: "[it] shows that some loyalist paramilitaries are looking ahead and contemplating what needs to be done to maintain our separate Ulster identity".[10]
https://tinyurl.com/y7hf9gdk
1) It has lots of catholics in it.
2) The Republic of Ireland likes it.
3) They suspect it might be the "third roman empire" mentioned in the book of revelations, to one of whose princes will be born the antichrist.
4) They have made a legitimate and peaceful request for cheese and pineapple on a stick.0 -
Brexit means Brexit.gypsumfantastic said:
I'd be amazed if anybody were able to define "brexit" unambiguously enough that lawyers won't be feeding off its carcass for decades.Sean_F said:
Although it has already been ruled that Brexit does not do so.0 -
Also it's regressive once you earn over a certain amount, and varies based on what year you started your studies.FrancisUrquhart said:
Well that's essentially what we have now, except there is an upper cap on the amount you are required to pay back.gypsumfantastic said:
A graduate tax. A couple of points on the higher rate for those that have completed their undergraduate degrees. Simple, fair, cost effective, doesn't discriminate against poor children, doesn't disincentivize study, doesn't require complex additional machinery to operate.Pulpstar said:
Justine Greening's solution looked sensible enough to be fair.FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....
It's so obvious it's the one thing we'll never do.0 -
I believe he’s challenging based on the principle of consentRichard_Nabavi said:
That's a non-sequitur. Something can be designed to achieve a particular objective, but that doesn't prove that it does.Dadge said:Since the backstop is explicitly designed to protect the GFA, Trimble will be laughed out of court. ...
Of course, in the event that Lord Trimble were to get a judgement in his favour, it would be superb news for the government, albeit about 6 months too late. It seems unlikely on the face of it, but without more information it's impossible to be sure. We have no idea at the moment of the grounds on which Lord Trimble thinks he has a case, but he's definitely no fool and he knows a thing or two about the GFA.0 -
So... not a backstop, then?Charles said:
Have it mutually terminateable on notice.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how long.
One thing that IS known is that the deal will include arrangements which ensure an open border in Ireland - an implicit requirement of the Good Friday Agreement. The UK and the EU are committed to this and there is no reason to doubt the commitment of either.
The problem is therefore one of timing. The deal will probably not be done by the time that the transition period runs out. A stop gap solution (to ensure an open border) is therefore needed for the period between end of transition and the deal being implemented.
The UK and the EU have agreed such a stop gap for this interim period. The UK will remain in the Customs Union and Northern Ireland will in addition remain aligned to the Single Market. This arrangement will be superseded in due course by the deal - which might or might not involve a technological border solution.
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
That’s all it takes0 -
Which falls back to the way the FE sector has been systematically gutted to pay for the expansion of HE and schools.FrancisUrquhart said:
Oh square root of f##k all top ranked unis would be closing, as the system would be effectively KOTH (king of the hill). I don't particularly have an issue, but try selling that to the public when little Johnny who has worked so so hard to get his 3 C's can't get a uni place.Pulpstar said:
And how many Oxbridge, Russell and ex-1994 group universities would be amongst these shutting down ?FrancisUrquhart said:
The problem with her solution wasn't on the student end (as it wouldn't have really made any difference regards what they paid, it was really just a rebranding), it was the unis end. It would result in lots of unis shutting down, if you think that is a good or bad thing is another matter.Pulpstar said:
Justine Greening's solution looked sensible enough to be fair.FrancisUrquhart said:Isabella, part of a group of teenagers being supported by the Villiers Park social mobility charity, has a real-world, life-changing decision that will depend on the outcome of the government's review of tuition fees in England.
If the fees were to be cut to £5,000 or £6,000, she says it would make a "massive difference" to the level of debt and she would switch to applying to university.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-47116650
Head...desk...thud....
Obviously the graduate tax shouldn't be applied to current graduates as that'd be the most horrendous form of effective lifetime double taxation.
My take has always been, we need a much more flexible approach to higher education. I have no issue with elitism for full time courses, what we need is a lot more part time combined with work (while still living locally) type courses.0 -
Not really doing what it's supposed to do, then, is it? Unless you mean that both parties must agree to its termination?Charles said:
Have it mutually terminateable on notice.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how long.
One thing that IS known is that the deal will include arrangements which ensure an open border in Ireland - an implicit requirement of the Good Friday Agreement. The UK and the EU are committed to this and there is no reason to doubt the commitment of either.
The problem is therefore one of timing. The deal will probably not be done by the time that the transition period runs out. A stop gap solution (to ensure an open border) is therefore needed for the period between end of transition and the deal being implemented.
The UK and the EU have agreed such a stop gap for this interim period. The UK will remain in the Customs Union and Northern Ireland will in addition remain aligned to the Single Market. This arrangement will be superseded in due course by the deal - which might or might not involve a technological border solution.
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
That’s all it takes0 -
I am sure i saw something somewhere, Dublin and London don’t actually agree on the line of the border, there’s bits along it, such as around a lake, still in dispute, not actually settled. Is that bit true?TOPPING said:
I think that Theresa May understands it. Now.SouthamObserver said:What makes the Irish border so complicated is that almost 100% of people to the south and west of it and around 40% to the north of it consider themselves Irish. The GFA and EU membership meant that to a large extent the border ceased to exist in their minds, even if it did so in reality. Its potential reappearance in less than two months time after 20 years is therefore a really big deal that goes way, way beyond trade and customs. No-one in the British government seems to understand this - probably because the only Northern Irish people it listens to are from the DUP.
The reason I believe Dublin and EU are in weak position and will back down this isn’t about a real border, backstop is about metaphorical border between where different custom rules begin and end. Yesterday’s HMRC no extra checks for temporary period ties in perfectly, because a critic would say well your rules are a sham then because you don’t know what’s coming in. So when and how does such a period end, what actually changes?
Being practicable about it, do you have rules or do you have a sham? Put another way, without proper border control and checks to confirm rules before brexit or after brexit, where is the control, how do you know what’s crossing borders? Or put another way, what is practicable difference between deal with backstop and deal without? Hence why would Dublin and EU torch their economies for no reason?0 -
Departure of the United Kingdom from the treaties of the European Union following the full term of an Article 50 Notice.gypsumfantastic said:
I'd be amazed if anybody were able to define "brexit" unambiguously enough that lawyers won't be feeding off its carcass for decades.Sean_F said:
Although it has already been ruled that Brexit does not do so.0 -
I think the Claimants are Lord Trimble, Ruth Dudley Edwards, and Councillor Jeffery Dudgeon.Sean_F said:
Although it has already been ruled that Brexit does not do so.williamglenn said:
If successful, these arguments can only lead to the conclusion that Brexit itself breaches the GFA.Sean_F said:
It's not an open and shut case. Professor Paul Bew thinks the backstop proposal breaches the GFA, and he is not at all sympathetic to the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You speak with such legal certainty, no doubt as a lawyer, but others on here are not as sure of the outcomeDadge said:
Not explicitly part of the GFA, but it was written/agreed on the basis that the UK and Ireland were both members of the EU. The courts will recognise this and that the backstop is a good-faith compromise designed to protect the GFA and that Trimble's intervention is in bad faith.David_Evershed said:
Avoidinginfrastructure on the border is not part of the GFA. The backstop is not designed to comply with the GFA but to avoid infrastructure.Dadge said:
Since the backstop is explicitly designed to protect the GFA, Trimble will be laughed out of court. His intervention is serving only to further muddy the waters; I assume that is his real intention.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sensible conclusion.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
I think Lord Trimble's court case will give a clear view whether the backstop is an actual legal construct or not. If the Court finds it contravenes the GFA then the Irish and the EU would be in breach of the agreement and that almost certainly will result in panic by them, and a different solution being found
If it is as open and shut a case, as you judge, why would Lord Trimble seek a judicial review. He is an expert himself on Irish matters0 -
A risky route considering Northern Ireland voted Remain.Charles said:
I believe he’s challenging based on the principle of consentRichard_Nabavi said:
That's a non-sequitur. Something can be designed to achieve a particular objective, but that doesn't prove that it does.Dadge said:Since the backstop is explicitly designed to protect the GFA, Trimble will be laughed out of court. ...
Of course, in the event that Lord Trimble were to get a judgement in his favour, it would be superb news for the government, albeit about 6 months too late. It seems unlikely on the face of it, but without more information it's impossible to be sure. We have no idea at the moment of the grounds on which Lord Trimble thinks he has a case, but he's definitely no fool and he knows a thing or two about the GFA.0 -
There are certain rather strange rules. According to the Great British Public, a) Northern Ireland is part of the Republic of Ireland, b) Scotland is not part of the UK, c) Ireland is part of the UK, d) the UK is an island, e) Ireland is not in the EU, f) the UK does not have a land border with the EU, g) the Republic of Ireland is an ally. The fact that these things are not true does not stop them being widely held, at least in SEEngland. So I don't expect anti-irish sentiment to increase in GB post-Brexit.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd expect anti (Northern) Irish sentiment to increase in Great Britain.FrancisUrquhart said:
Better get stocked up on bog roll, no deal exit here we come.gypsumfantastic said:DUP's Sammy Wilson says his party will not back the #Brexit deal unless the backstop is removed, as it "does not honour [Theresa May's] own manifesto or the outcome of the referendum"
Note: *removed*. Not assurances, not a time limit, not a codicil, not an exchange of letters, not a unilateral exit mechanism. REMOVED.
The DUP are signalling they cannot and will not support the May backstop under any configuration or circumstance.
twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1092760450331160577
Personally if I was Theresa May I'd tell the DUP that if No Deal happens then she'll trigger an Irish unity referendum.
0 -
Not a great cheese afficionado! However, I mainly meant restaurants and bars especially at the middle and lower end. You still get real food in Spain - some of their hearty rustic stuff is to die for while at the higher end they experiment and innovate while delighting the taste buds no end! Me gusta mucha!!SouthamObserver said:
I'd take French cheese over Spanish cheese, with one or two exceptions. I'd go Spain for everything else though!felix said:
TBF French food is vastly overrated and overpriced. Spain is now head and shoulders above.Peter_the_Punter said:
A French friend remarked to me recently that the last time she went, she wasn't even offered lunch - the ultimate Gallic insult!Richard_Tyndall said:
He is right. It is crap. She should at least be making an effort to appear to do something even if it is difficult bordering on impossible. At least Cameron used to walk in to he Lion's Den and fight his corner. These days May seems to want to avoid Brussels at all unless she thinks she can win.williamglenn said:0 -
Yes it does run through waterways. Lough Erne for example.dots said:
I am sure i saw something somewhere, Dublin and London don’t actually agree on the line of the border, there’s bits along it, such as around a lake, still in dispute, not actually settled. Is that bit true?TOPPING said:
I think that Theresa May understands it. Now.SouthamObserver said:What makes the Irish border so complicated is that almost 100% of people to the south and west of it and around 40% to the north of it consider themselves Irish. The GFA and EU membership meant that to a large extent the border ceased to exist in their minds, even if it did so in reality. Its potential reappearance in less than two months time after 20 years is therefore a really big deal that goes way, way beyond trade and customs. No-one in the British government seems to understand this - probably because the only Northern Irish people it listens to are from the DUP.
The reason I believe Dublin and EU are in weak position and will back down this isn’t about a real border, backstop is about metaphorical border between where different custom rules begin and end. Yesterday’s HMRC no extra checks for temporary period ties in perfectly, because a critic would say well your rules are a sham then because you don’t know what’s coming in. So when and how does such a period end, what actually changes?
Being practicable about it, do you have rules or do you have a sham? Put another way, without proper border control and checks to confirm rules before brexit or after brexit, where is the control, how do you know what’s crossing borders? Or put another way, what is practicable difference between deal with backstop and deal without? Hence why would Dublin and EU torch their economies for no reason?0 -
It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!0 -
I think you need to consider ticket prices as well as attendances; the 2018 women's FA cup got just over 45k spectators into the wembley but the tickets (for this year) only cost £15 for adults and kids go free.FrancisUrquhart said:
Actually I don't know this, but interesting to know. I wonder what the comparison between male professional footballers who attract similar attendances / fanbases get paid compared to the women's premier league?tlg86 said:
I think the men should be paid the same as the women.Roger said:OT. Lady from the FA thinks female footballers should get paid the same as men
I actually never really had that much of an issue with the very top level players getting paid what they do, it isn't that out of whack with other elite sports. However, my understanding is that even in say division 1 and 2 of football league players can easily make £100k+.
Yes football is a global game and very well supported game, but you don't get say a tennis player or golfer who well outside the top bracket making big money, or even NFL (the richest league in America) the salary outside of the top players / positions isn't massive.0 -
Some praise for Justine Greening on tuition fees but IMO she's also proposed the best solution to Brexit. 3 way referendum on AV In/Deal/No Deal.
Smart cookie. Not hard to see why she's so alienated in May's Conservatives.0 -
Yes, this is the paradox of the whole thing – and the utter insanity at the heart of this whole dismal process.Richard_Tyndall said:
In days gone by, it would have been called a Catch-22. Nowadays, it is interpreted by a worryingly compliant media as principled positioning.0 -
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
Charming.edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
Yeah, the EU's sequencing idea was stupid, wasn't it?_Anazina_ said:
Yes, this is the paradox of the whole thing – and the utter insanity at the heart of this whole dismal process.Richard_Tyndall said:
In days gone by, it would have been called a Catch-22. Nowadays, it is interpreted by a worryingly compliant media as principled positioning.0 -
-
What I don't get is why the polls haven't turned more? If people believed the lies of Vote Leave, supporting Brexit in theory, fair enough. But now they can see that Brexit in practice means pain and not the benefits they were promised, why has the backlash been so muted? There has been a noticeable swing, but it seems a generation and mindset are honed in on blaming the EU and looking for confirmation bias even when there's little to justify it. How the heck do we get reason and objective evidence taken seriously again? I hope the answer isn't that we have to go through a No Deal Brexit before anyone will believe the pain involved.edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
Planning the Christmas party?Scott_P said:0 -
-
Brexit qua Brexit.rottenborough said:
Brexit means Brexit.gypsumfantastic said:
I'd be amazed if anybody were able to define "brexit" unambiguously enough that lawyers won't be feeding off its carcass for decades.Sean_F said:
Although it has already been ruled that Brexit does not do so.0 -
I couldn’t imagine my grandparents voting for something that they knew would be harmful for me . Just shows the complete selfishness of those who tell the world they’d do anything for their grand kids and then vote to make them second class citizens of Europe . And unfortunately I don’t share any sympathy for those who for example worked for Nissan and voted Leave . They were happy to trash my rights and freedoms and so I could care less if they eventually lose their jobs .edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
I think there is much to be said for the straightforward approach of funding tertiary education in the same way as primary and secondary - out of general taxation.Stereotomy said:Actually I think it should be applied to current graduates, but that any student loan repayments should be counted against it.
For this to be practical, one would need to shrink the size of the sector significantly from what it is today. But perhaps that is no bad thing. Mickey Mouse degrees etc.
As to who should bear the brunt of the tax rises required to fund it, I would suggest our old friend, the affluent middle classes. So tax on income over £X rises to, say, x%.
Then we make that up to them by abolishing private schools, in effect an enormous middle class tax break, being the fees saved. In fact the fees saved would be greater than the extra tax paid, so there would be a net financial benefit to that group of society.
And as the kicker, everybody going to their local state school means the end of educational privilege, therefore although we will have a smaller university sector it will not be socially elitist, only academically so.0 -
What's not to like?nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!0 -
-
The Brexit street parties and parades, probably.FrancisUrquhart said:Planning the Christmas party?
0 -
I don't think that will do it either. Nationalism feeds on its own failure.tpfkar said:
What I don't get is why the polls haven't turned more? If people believed the lies of Vote Leave, supporting Brexit in theory, fair enough. But now they can see that Brexit in practice means pain and not the benefits they were promised, why has the backlash been so muted? There has been a noticeable swing, but it seems a generation and mindset are honed in on blaming the EU and looking for confirmation bias even when there's little to justify it. How the heck do we get reason and objective evidence taken seriously again? I hope the answer isn't that we have to go through a No Deal Brexit before anyone will believe the pain involved.edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
Planning the revocation of Article 50 parties.FrancisUrquhart said:
Planning the Christmas party?Scott_P said:0 -
We were stabbed in the back by a fifth column who sabotaged our efforts.edmundintokyo said:
I don't think that will do it either. Nationalism feeds on its own failure.tpfkar said:
What I don't get is why the polls haven't turned more? If people believed the lies of Vote Leave, supporting Brexit in theory, fair enough. But now they can see that Brexit in practice means pain and not the benefits they were promised, why has the backlash been so muted? There has been a noticeable swing, but it seems a generation and mindset are honed in on blaming the EU and looking for confirmation bias even when there's little to justify it. How the heck do we get reason and objective evidence taken seriously again? I hope the answer isn't that we have to go through a No Deal Brexit before anyone will believe the pain involved.edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
Because having voted once, it requires people to admit that they were wrong. Not something that comes naturally to anyone.tpfkar said:
What I don't get is why the polls haven't turned more? If people believed the lies of Vote Leave, supporting Brexit in theory, fair enough. But now they can see that Brexit in practice means pain and not the benefits they were promised, why has the backlash been so muted? There has been a noticeable swing, but it seems a generation and mindset are honed in on blaming the EU and looking for confirmation bias even when there's little to justify it. How the heck do we get reason and objective evidence taken seriously again? I hope the answer isn't that we have to go through a No Deal Brexit before anyone will believe the pain involved.edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
Brexit has become like the new religion for some . They’d still support it as they received their P45 . And they’ll blame anyone but their vote for the impending disaster.0
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0
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The 3-Way Referendum is merely the Cheats Charter. It has one purpose: to overturn Brexit on less than half the vote. As such, it should be treated by democrats with the utmost contempt - along with those promoting it.tpfkar said:Some praise for Justine Greening on tuition fees but IMO she's also proposed the best solution to Brexit. 3 way referendum on AV In/Deal/No Deal.
Smart cookie. Not hard to see why she's so alienated in May's Conservatives.0 -
With you, I'm afraid. If the government is forced to cut the triple lock as well it will be nearly perfect! I'm constantly being told by pensioners that any price is worth paying for our independence - well, let's make sure they pay it!Streeter said:
What's not to like?nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!0 -
We didn't all vote Leave. In fact while I was last-minute leafleting for Remain in our market-place several very much younger people told me they had voted Leave.RobD said:
Charming.edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
Indeed. Not a backstop. (or "insurance policy" as the media has tried to rebrand it)Stereotomy said:
So... not a backstop, then?Charles said:
Have it mutually terminateable on notice.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how long.
One thing that IS known is that the deal will include arrangements which ensure an open border in Ireland - an implicit requirement of the Good Friday Agreement. The UK and the EU are committed to this and there is no reason to doubt the commitment of either.
The problem is therefore one of timing. The deal will probably not be done by the time that the transition period runs out. A stop gap solution (to ensure an open border) is therefore needed for the period between end of transition and the deal being implemented.
The UK and the EU have agreed such a stop gap for this interim period. The UK will remain in the Customs Union and Northern Ireland will in addition remain aligned to the Single Market. This arrangement will be superseded in due course by the deal - which might or might not involve a technological border solution.
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
That’s all it takes
We, the EU, don't trust you to keep to your treaty obligations so we need a backstop. But you should trust us to let you out.
Just have it mutually terminateable.
0 -
Mel Brooks long since settled that debate: "Look at that boyish face. Look at that sweet smile. Do you wanna talk about physical strength? Do you want to talk about sheer muscle? Do you want to talk about the Olympian ideal? You are a GOD! And listen to me, you are not evil. You... are... GOOD!"Charles said:
Depends who you think the monster is.AlastairMeeks said:
The monster in Frankenstein is called Frankenstein. Isn't that one of the central points of the story?FrancisUrquhart said:I see video has been unearthed of Jezza ranting about the dangers of every closer union within EU, Lisbon treaty and NATO. Nothing particularly surprising, but I am sure the cult will still argue that they think he is nailed on Remainer.
More worrying to me, he makes the faux-pas of thinking that the monster in Frankenstein is called Frankenstein....
I'd argue that Dr. Frankenstein is the monster, while Frankenstein's Monster is the victim0 -
One in every eight things the EU makes goes to the UK market.SeanT said:While you weren't watching, the French economy just fell off a cliff, landing on Italy. Germany teeters on the edge.
https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/fb2cfb50b5db40989326b8b58e605074?s=1
The core EU is potentially headed for a nasty recession. This is the very worst time for them to have a Hard Brexit. The pressure is on in Brussels, as well as London.
Put at risk for an insurance policy they say no-one wants and will never be claimed under.
Great job Barnier, Tusk, Juncker......0 -
That's because "what it is supposed to do" is not sellable to the UK parliament.TOPPING said:
Not really doing what it's supposed to do, then, is it? Unless you mean that both parties must agree to its termination?Charles said:
Have it mutually terminateable on notice.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how long.
One thing that IS known is that the deal will include arrangements which ensure an open border in Ireland - an implicit requirement of the Good Friday Agreement. The UK and the EU are committed to this and there is no reason to doubt the commitment of either.
The problem is therefore one of timing. The deal will probably not be done by the time that the transition period runs out. A stop gap solution (to ensure an open border) is therefore needed for the period between end of transition and the deal being implemented.
The UK and the EU have agreed such a stop gap for this interim period. The UK will remain in the Customs Union and Northern Ireland will in addition remain aligned to the Single Market. This arrangement will be superseded in due course by the deal - which might or might not involve a technological border solution.
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
That’s all it takes
At the moment the GFA itself could be terminated by either the UK or the RoI. So why shouldn't that continue to be the case?0 -
On the other hand, every trade war has its bright side:SeanT said:While you weren't watching, the French economy just fell off a cliff, landing on Italy. Germany teeters on the edge.
https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/fb2cfb50b5db40989326b8b58e605074?s=1
The core EU is potentially headed for a nasty recession. This is the very worst time for them to have a Hard Brexit. The pressure is on in Brussels, as well as London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47126114
A UN trade official has warned a US plan to raise tariffs on Chinese goods next month would have "massive" implications for the global economy.
...Of the approximately $85bn in US exports that are subject to China's tariffs, only about 5% will be taken up by Chinese firms, the UN research shows.
The study found that European exports will grow by $70bn, while Japan, Canada and Mexico will see exports increase by more than $20bn each.
Other countries that could benefit include Australia, Brazil, India, the Philippines and Vietnam, the report said...0 -
You have to ask - who are those 20%? Do we employ THAT many civil servants?AlastairMeeks said:Theresa May has united the nation:
https://twitter.com/ORB_Int/status/10927702686181253170 -
They didn't consent to the backstop, which is what changes the GFA.TheScreamingEagles said:
A risky route considering Northern Ireland voted Remain.Charles said:
I believe he’s challenging based on the principle of consentRichard_Nabavi said:
That's a non-sequitur. Something can be designed to achieve a particular objective, but that doesn't prove that it does.Dadge said:Since the backstop is explicitly designed to protect the GFA, Trimble will be laughed out of court. ...
Of course, in the event that Lord Trimble were to get a judgement in his favour, it would be superb news for the government, albeit about 6 months too late. It seems unlikely on the face of it, but without more information it's impossible to be sure. We have no idea at the moment of the grounds on which Lord Trimble thinks he has a case, but he's definitely no fool and he knows a thing or two about the GFA.
Of course, as @rcs1000 has posted, a victory for Trimble could be resolved by having an NI referendum on the backstop (not a border poll).
The fact that it would piss off the DUP is just an added bonus for him0 -
Which clause is that?Charles said:
That's because "what it is supposed to do" is not sellable to the UK parliament.TOPPING said:
Not really doing what it's supposed to do, then, is it? Unless you mean that both parties must agree to its termination?Charles said:
Have it mutually terminateable on notice.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how long.
One thing that IS known is that the deal will include arrangements which ensure an open border in Ireland - an implicit requirement of the Good Friday Agreement. The UK and the EU are committed to this and there is no reason to doubt the commitment of either.
The problem is therefore one of timing. The deal will probably not be done by the time that the transition period runs out. A stop gap solution (to ensure an open border) is therefore needed for the period between end of transition and the deal being implemented.
The UK and the EU have agreed such a stop gap for this interim period. The UK will remain in the Customs Union and Northern Ireland will in addition remain aligned to the Single Market. This arrangement will be superseded in due course by the deal - which might or might not involve a technological border solution.
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
That’s all it takes
At the moment the GFA itself could be terminated by either the UK or the RoI. So why shouldn't that continue to be the case?0 -
You are Wayne Rooney and I claim my £5edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
The operation to monitor Lab twitter accounts 'liking' dick pics is going into 24-7 overdrive?Scott_P said:0 -
I seriously doubt many civil servants would claim the government has handled negotiations well, even were they being paid to do so.MarqueeMark said:
You have to ask - who are those 20%? Do we employ THAT many civil servants?AlastairMeeks said:Theresa May has united the nation:
https://twitter.com/ORB_Int/status/10927702686181253170 -
In your entirely impartial opinion.MarqueeMark said:
The 3-Way Referendum is merely the Cheats Charter. It has one purpose: to overturn Brexit on less than half the vote. As such, it should be treated by democrats with the utmost contempt - along with those promoting it.tpfkar said:Some praise for Justine Greening on tuition fees but IMO she's also proposed the best solution to Brexit. 3 way referendum on AV In/Deal/No Deal.
Smart cookie. Not hard to see why she's so alienated in May's Conservatives.0 -
Any treaty can be terminated.williamglenn said:
Which clause is that?Charles said:
That's because "what it is supposed to do" is not sellable to the UK parliament.TOPPING said:
Not really doing what it's supposed to do, then, is it? Unless you mean that both parties must agree to its termination?Charles said:
Have it mutually terminateable on notice.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how long.
One thing that IS known is that the deal will include arrangements which ensure an open border in Ireland - an implicit requirement of the Good Friday Agreement. The UK and the EU are committed to this and there is no reason to doubt the commitment of either.
The problem is therefore one of timing. The deal will probably not be done by the time that the transition period runs out. A stop gap solution (to ensure an open border) is therefore needed for the period between end of transition and the deal being implemented.
The UK and the EU have agreed such a stop gap for this interim period. The UK will remain in the Customs Union and Northern Ireland will in addition remain aligned to the Single Market. This arrangement will be superseded in due course by the deal - which might or might not involve a technological border solution.
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
That’s all it takes
At the moment the GFA itself could be terminated by either the UK or the RoI. So why shouldn't that continue to be the case?
(As an example, in a confidentiality agreement, we prefer to be silent on the term vs have a long term because of the way that the courts would judge the issue)0 -
I do wonder what the million people who recently arrived are going to do in this future high tech economy?SeanT said:
Incidentally, I remember saying on this here site, a few years ago, that ultimately Germany would suffer from Chinese competition, even as it has hugely benefited from Chinese imports and growth for a decade. I was roundly derided ("people will always want Mercedes" - lol).MarqueeMark said:
One in every eight things the EU makes goes to the UK market.SeanT said:While you weren't watching, the French economy just fell off a cliff, landing on Italy. Germany teeters on the edge.
https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/fb2cfb50b5db40989326b8b58e605074?s=1
The core EU is potentially headed for a nasty recession. This is the very worst time for them to have a Hard Brexit. The pressure is on in Brussels, as well as London.
Put at risk for an insurance policy they say no-one wants and will never be claimed under.
Great job Barnier, Tusk, Juncker......
Now it is coming true. China is moving upmarket, and is challenging Germany in its own backyard: high level engineering, industrial machinery, nice cars and high speed trains etc. China already devoured and destroyed Germany's solar industry, from here on it will eat the rest. This is a double whammy for Germany as its exports to China will plunge, and China will out-compete Germany for market share around the world.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/germany-is-a-diminished-giant-and-that-spells-trouble-for-europe-2019-01-28
"However, today, the global technological race is in science-and-mathematics-based electronic and computing technologies, where Germany is proving an also-ran. Among the world’s top 15 science and mathematics university programs, East Asian economies — China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan — take prized spots along with the United States. No German—or European—university makes that prestigious list. Germany could easily fall into the world’s second-tier economic league unless the country’s leaders act with new urgency."0 -
Very good points there. Lloyd George once said the easiest mistake to make is to underestimate people's intelligence and overestimate their knowledge. There are people who are perfectly capable of understanding the most intricate of matters relating to their own life and yet have only the haziest of notions of what goes on outside their sphere.viewcode said:
There are certain rather strange rules. According to the Great British Public, a) Northern Ireland is part of the Republic of Ireland, b) Scotland is not part of the UK, c) Ireland is part of the UK, d) the UK is an island, e) Ireland is not in the EU, f) the UK does not have a land border with the EU, g) the Republic of Ireland is an ally. The fact that these things are not true does not stop them being widely held, at least in SEEngland. So I don't expect anti-irish sentiment to increase in GB post-Brexit.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd expect anti (Northern) Irish sentiment to increase in Great Britain.FrancisUrquhart said:
Better get stocked up on bog roll, no deal exit here we come.gypsumfantastic said:DUP's Sammy Wilson says his party will not back the #Brexit deal unless the backstop is removed, as it "does not honour [Theresa May's] own manifesto or the outcome of the referendum"
Note: *removed*. Not assurances, not a time limit, not a codicil, not an exchange of letters, not a unilateral exit mechanism. REMOVED.
The DUP are signalling they cannot and will not support the May backstop under any configuration or circumstance.
twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1092760450331160577
Personally if I was Theresa May I'd tell the DUP that if No Deal happens then she'll trigger an Irish unity referendum.0 -
A big benefit of a No Deal Brexit, possibly the only, is that people would have to face the reality of what they voted for.IanB2 said:
Because having voted once, it requires people to admit that they were wrong. Not something that comes naturally to anyone.tpfkar said:
What I don't get is why the polls haven't turned more? If people believed the lies of Vote Leave, supporting Brexit in theory, fair enough. But now they can see that Brexit in practice means pain and not the benefits they were promised, why has the backlash been so muted? There has been a noticeable swing, but it seems a generation and mindset are honed in on blaming the EU and looking for confirmation bias even when there's little to justify it. How the heck do we get reason and objective evidence taken seriously again? I hope the answer isn't that we have to go through a No Deal Brexit before anyone will believe the pain involved.edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.
In fact that could have certain long-term advantages.0 -
The withdrawal agreement is a treaty, so what’s the difference?Charles said:
Any treaty can be terminated.williamglenn said:
Which clause is that?Charles said:
That's because "what it is supposed to do" is not sellable to the UK parliament.TOPPING said:
Not really doing what it's supposed to do, then, is it? Unless you mean that both parties must agree to its termination?Charles said:
Have it mutually terminateable on notice.kinabalu said:Interesting debate on the Irish border. Been following it. Very interesting.
Have come to a conclusion -
It will take time for the UK and the EU to finalize a close and comprehensive relationship & trade deal. It will be done, no question, but it might take several years and at this point nobody can know exactly how long.
One thing that IS known is that the deal will include arrangements which ensure an open border in Ireland - an implicit requirement of the Good Friday Agreement. The UK and the EU are committed to this and there is no reason to doubt the commitment of either.
The problem is therefore one of timing. The deal will probably not be done by the time that the transition period runs out. A stop gap solution (to ensure an open border) is therefore needed for the period between end of transition and the deal being implemented.
The UK and the EU have agreed such a stop gap for this interim period. The UK will remain in the Customs Union and Northern Ireland will in addition remain aligned to the Single Market. This arrangement will be superseded in due course by the deal - which might or might not involve a technological border solution.
No border in Ireland is deemed of such import that the stop gap has been made legally binding, rather than left as a matter of trust and mutual assurances of best efforts and best intent between the parties. I can see why. Hard to see it being dropped.
Unless we suspect that the EU wishes to trap us into the stop gap situation against our will and in perpetuity, I do not see the problem. If we do suspect that, then I can see a problem.
I do not suspect that.
That’s all it takes
At the moment the GFA itself could be terminated by either the UK or the RoI. So why shouldn't that continue to be the case?
(As an example, in a confidentiality agreement, we prefer to be silent on the term vs have a long term because of the way that the courts would judge the issue)0 -
Tech guy in the Northern Ireland segment on Breakfast this morning was Italian, and saying that although they wanted to recruit locally, they needed to be able to do so in a wider pool. A Europe-wide pool.FrancisUrquhart said:
I do wonder what the million people who recently arrived are going to do in this future high tech economy?SeanT said:
Incidentally, I remember saying on this here site, a few years ago, that ultimately Germany would suffer from Chinese competition, even as it has hugely benefited from Chinese imports and growth for a decade. I was roundly derided ("people will always want Mercedes" - lol).MarqueeMark said:
One in every eight things the EU makes goes to the UK market.SeanT said:While you weren't watching, the French economy just fell off a cliff, landing on Italy. Germany teeters on the edge.
https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/fb2cfb50b5db40989326b8b58e605074?s=1
The core EU is potentially headed for a nasty recession. This is the very worst time for them to have a Hard Brexit. The pressure is on in Brussels, as well as London.
Put at risk for an insurance policy they say no-one wants and will never be claimed under.
Great job Barnier, Tusk, Juncker......
Now it is coming true. China is moving upmarket, and is challenging Germany in its own backyard: high level engineering, industrial machinery, nice cars and high speed trains etc. China already devoured and destroyed Germany's solar industry, from here on it will eat the rest. This is a double whammy for Germany as its exports to China will plunge, and China will out-compete Germany for market share around the world.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/germany-is-a-diminished-giant-and-that-spells-trouble-for-europe-2019-01-28
"However, today, the global technological race is in science-and-mathematics-based electronic and computing technologies, where Germany is proving an also-ran. Among the world’s top 15 science and mathematics university programs, East Asian economies — China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan — take prized spots along with the United States. No German—or European—university makes that prestigious list. Germany could easily fall into the world’s second-tier economic league unless the country’s leaders act with new urgency."0 -
I some how doubt many refugees from Syria and economic migrants from Africa are Machine Learning specialists.OldKingCole said:
Tech guy in the Northern Ireland segment on Breakfast this morning was Italian, and saying that although they wanted to recruit locally, they needed to be able to do so in a wider pool. A Europe-wide pool.FrancisUrquhart said:
I do wonder what the million people who recently arrived are going to do in this future high tech economy?SeanT said:
Incidentally, I remember saying on this here site, a few years ago, that ultimately Germany would suffer from Chinese competition, even as it has hugely benefited from Chinese imports and growth for a decade. I was roundly derided ("people will always want Mercedes" - lol).MarqueeMark said:
One in every eight things the EU makes goes to the UK market.SeanT said:While you weren't watching, the French economy just fell off a cliff, landing on Italy. Germany teeters on the edge.
https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/fb2cfb50b5db40989326b8b58e605074?s=1
The core EU is potentially headed for a nasty recession. This is the very worst time for them to have a Hard Brexit. The pressure is on in Brussels, as well as London.
Put at risk for an insurance policy they say no-one wants and will never be claimed under.
Great job Barnier, Tusk, Juncker......
Now it is coming true. China is moving upmarket, and is challenging Germany in its own backyard: high level engineering, industrial machinery, nice cars and high speed trains etc. China already devoured and destroyed Germany's solar industry, from here on it will eat the rest. This is a double whammy for Germany as its exports to China will plunge, and China will out-compete Germany for market share around the world.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/germany-is-a-diminished-giant-and-that-spells-trouble-for-europe-2019-01-28
"However, today, the global technological race is in science-and-mathematics-based electronic and computing technologies, where Germany is proving an also-ran. Among the world’s top 15 science and mathematics university programs, East Asian economies — China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan — take prized spots along with the United States. No German—or European—university makes that prestigious list. Germany could easily fall into the world’s second-tier economic league unless the country’s leaders act with new urgency."0 -
One in eight of exports might go to the UK market, give or take, but surely not one in eight of everything the EU makes. Most of that must be internally consumed surely.MarqueeMark said:
One in every eight things the EU makes goes to the UK market.....0 -
As others have responded, this would not then be a backstop.Charles said:Have it mutually terminateable on notice.
That’s all it takes
I prefer (and I think the EU would prefer, if they were up for a meaningful change at all, that is, which I doubt) the idea of a sunshine clause - 5 years say.
That IS still a backstop, it's a time limited backstop.
And 5 years, plus the transition, therefore 7 years, is ample time to do the trade deal.
Or if it isn't, it would mean that Michael Gove (who will be running the show) is not the man we all think he is.0 -
Not sure about the latter, although never say never, but quite likely to be highly skilled, in that field, Syrians.FrancisUrquhart said:
I some how doubt many refugees from Syria and economic migrants from Africa are Machine Learning specialists.OldKingCole said:
Tech guy in the Northern Ireland segment on Breakfast this morning was Italian, and saying that although they wanted to recruit locally, they needed to be able to do so in a wider pool. A Europe-wide pool.FrancisUrquhart said:
I do wonder what the million people who recently arrived are going to do in this future high tech economy?SeanT said:
Incidentally, I remember saying on this here site, a few years ago, that ultimately Germany would suffer from Chinese competition, even as it has hugely benefited from Chinese imports and growth for a decade. I was roundly derided ("people will always want Mercedes" - lol).MarqueeMark said:
One in every eight things the EU makes goes to the UK market.SeanT said:While you weren't watching, the French economy just fell off a cliff, landing on Italy. Germany teeters on the edge.
https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/fb2cfb50b5db40989326b8b58e605074?s=1
The core EU is potentially headed for a nasty recession. This is the very worst time for them to have a Hard Brexit. The pressure is on in Brussels, as well as London.
Put at risk for an insurance policy they say no-one wants and will never be claimed under.
Great job Barnier, Tusk, Juncker......
Now it is coming true. China is moving upmarket, and is challenging Germany in its own backyard: high level engineering, industrial machinery, nice cars and high speed trains etc. China already devoured and destroyed Germany's solar industry, from here on it will eat the rest. This is a double whammy for Germany as its exports to China will plunge, and China will out-compete Germany for market share around the world.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/germany-is-a-diminished-giant-and-that-spells-trouble-for-europe-2019-01-28
"However, today, the global technological race is in science-and-mathematics-based electronic and computing technologies, where Germany is proving an also-ran. Among the world’s top 15 science and mathematics university programs, East Asian economies — China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan — take prized spots along with the United States. No German—or European—university makes that prestigious list. Germany could easily fall into the world’s second-tier economic league unless the country’s leaders act with new urgency."0 -
'Triumph Reports 12.7% Increase in Retail SalesSeanT said:
Well, if you listened to PB-ers back in 2015, when I made this prediction, they will bashing the panels for BMW diesel SUV's, because "people will always want BMWs", the same way they will always want Triumph motorbikes, Kodak cameras, and Apple iPhones.FrancisUrquhart said:
I do wonder what the million people who recently arrived are going to do in this future high tech economy?SeanT said:
Incidentally, I remember saying on this here site, a few years ago, that ultimately Germany would suffer from Chinese competition, even as it has hugely benefited from Chinese imports and growth for a decade. I was roundly derided ("people will always want Mercedes" - lol).MarqueeMark said:
One in every eight things the EU makes goes to the UK market.SeanT said:While you weren't watching, the French economy just fell off a cliff, landing on Italy. Germany teeters on the edge.
https://www.markiteconomics.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/fb2cfb50b5db40989326b8b58e605074?s=1
The core EU is potentially headed for a nasty recession. This is the very worst time for them to have a Hard Brexit. The pressure is on in Brussels, as well as London.
Put at risk for an insurance policy they say no-one wants and will never be claimed under.
Great job Barnier, Tusk, Juncker......
Now it is coming true. China is moving upmarket, and is challenging Germany in its own backyard: high level engineering, industrial machinery, nice cars and high speed trains etc. China already devoured and destroyed Germany's solar industry, from here on it will eat the rest. This is a double whammy for Germany as its exports to China will plunge, and China will out-compete Germany for market share around the world.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/germany-is-a-diminished-giant-and-that-spells-trouble-for-europe-2019-01-28
"However, today, the global technological race is in science-and-mathematics-based electronic and computing technologies, where Germany is proving an also-ran. Among the world’s top 15 science and mathematics university programs, East Asian economies — China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan — take prized spots along with the United States. No German—or European—university makes that prestigious list. Germany could easily fall into the world’s second-tier economic league unless the country’s leaders act with new urgency."
The UK motorcycle brand Triumph had another record year in sales after reporting a 12.7% increase in retail sales for fiscal year 2017.'
https://tinyurl.com/y7987b2l
Before Brexit of course.0 -
I'd be kind of hoping that it would kill THEM - or at least their role as power brokers.gypsumfantastic said:If that's what it takes to kill the May backstop for good, you know the mad bastards will do it.
You can't have a situation where a smooth & orderly exit from the European Union in accordance with the 2016 referendum is being stolen from the British people by a small sectarian party from Northern Ireland.
And if a GE is the only way to rectify, well ...0 -
My heart bleeds purple piss for you.nico67 said:
I couldn’t imagine my grandparents voting for something that they knew would be harmful for me . Just shows the complete selfishness of those who tell the world they’d do anything for their grand kids and then vote to make them second class citizens of Europe . And unfortunately I don’t share any sympathy for those who for example worked for Nissan and voted Leave . They were happy to trash my rights and freedoms and so I could care less if they eventually lose their jobs .edmundintokyo said:
I dunno, I do have some sympathy for some of these people. I mean, they may have been mistaken about how it would affect them but at least it was their skin in the game.nico67 said:It’s quite ironic that those most likely to suffer the greatest under no deal are from sectors who fell for the garbage spouted by the Leave campaign .
Farmers who never stopped moaning about the EU ignored the fact the Tories had for years been trying to lower their subsidies . The fishermen ignoring the fact the Tories never fought for better quotas and who will be destroyed if they can’t export tariff free into their biggest market .
The high leave areas of the Midlands and ne whose manufacturing will be hit badly .
To be blunt I really could care less now . They voted for it they can own it, don’t expect Remainers to have an ounce of sympathy .
Hope they enjoy waving their blue passports and singing Vera Lynn songs on the way to the job centre!
On the other hand, fuck the retirees.0 -
To me, it seems unlikely that any group of people are likely to be highly skilled in machine learning. Unless it was a group of computer programmers.OldKingCole said:
Not sure about the latter, although never say never, but quite likely to be highly skilled, in that field, Syrians.0 -
Didn't I read somewhere that there's interesting high (-ish, anyway) stuff going on in West Africa?RobD said:
To me, it seems unlikely that any group of people are likely to be highly skilled in machine learning. Unless it was a group of computer programmers.OldKingCole said:
Not sure about the latter, although never say never, but quite likely to be highly skilled, in that field, Syrians.0 -
We could have it on five years' notice, that would be enough of a backstop to be worthy of the name I think. The rumoured date of just one year after transition, not so much...kinabalu said:
As others have responded, this would not then be a backstop.Charles said:Have it mutually terminateable on notice.
That’s all it takes
I prefer (and I think the EU would prefer, if they were up for a meaningful change at all, that is, which I doubt) the idea of a sunshine clause - 5 years say.
That IS still a backstop, it's a time limited backstop.
And 5 years, plus the transition, therefore 7 years, is ample time to do the trade deal.
Or if it isn't, it would mean that Michael Gove (who will be running the show) is not the man we all think he is.0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
F1 continues to be surprisingly stupid at times. They've tried to simplify the tyres. There are five types. Two of them are red, and two of them are white. You can 'tell the difference' because some have brackets and some don't (between the Pirelli lettering). Good thing F1 cars are renowned for not moving at high speeds, reducing the colour to a blur...0 -
Scanning the media, it seems that Liam Neeson will end up either never working again or as the next Pope.0
