politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Govey maintaining and extending his lead in the next CON leade
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And then there were seven...
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/23/pete-buttigieg-2020-exploratory-committee-11200950 -
Mr. NorthWales, suspending Parliament because it disagrees with you is a bit Charles II.
However, MPs trying to ignore the will of the electorate is equally stupid. But because that's the political-media class' consensus, it'll get far less opprobrium.0 -
Wouldn’t that require statute?Scott_P said:0 -
The favoured options are Remain 37%, No Deal 29%, May's Deal 23%.AndyJS said:0 -
What has the EU ever done for us?OldKingCole said:
Really, really don't see it.Richard_Tyndall said:
I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.OldKingCole said:
I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.0 -
If @Thescreamingeagles analogy is correct then the Tories could be on track to win all 650 seats in the House of Commons shortlyRobD said:
HM rule by decree? We could do worse...TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexiteers sound a lot like supporters of the Enabling Act of 1933.Scott_P said:
! 0 -
We had a 50/50 result with the Welsh Assembly referendum in 1997 and it didn't seem to cause any problems.FrancisUrquhart said:
All this polling basically shows the same. 50% want to remain no matter what is offered, 50% think leave means leave at all costs.AndyJS said:0 -
You can go to 160+ countries visa free with a UK passport for up to 3 months even six months. Most of the 30 or so which require UK citizens to get visas aren't places which would be first choice for a vacation anyway e.g. Yemen and Iran. Apart from when you enter the US rarely are you questioned - they are happy to accept your tourist cash and assume you will leave by the deadline.OldKingCole said:
There are a lot of unquantifiable benefits. Freedom of movement is only one, and what it leads to, the liberation of ideas, the feeling that one can go and do things, as opposed to being constrained by national borders.Beverley_C said:
In your opinion.Richard_Tyndall said:And no the benefits if living in the EU in no way outweigh the costs.
Yes, we can go to Australia or Canada, but it's a major exercise, not a matter of a short flight or a ferry.
For the vast majority of Brits that is sufficient. Despite us being in the EU (and its forebears) for nearly 50 years there are more British citizens resident in Australia - where we lost FOM in the 70s - than there are in the whole of the EU outside the British isles.
95% plus of UK citizens probably have never and will never take advantage of FOM in the real sense i.e. moving to an EU member state for more than 3 months for anything but a holiday. Only 1.5 million or so do now. The vast majority just aren't interested - and see its negatives in terms of not being able to control immigration levels here and thus plan for housing and public services.
And if - beyond a 6 euro ESTA style fee every 3 years (less than the price of a seat on a Ryanair flight) - the EU/EEA were ever to decide to make tourism for Brits difficult well there are 130 other nations that don't. So people can vote with their wallets and holiday in places where they are welcome.
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Pulpstar said:
If @Thescreamingeagles analogy is correct then the Tories could be on track to win all 650 seats in the House of Commons shortlyRobD said:
HM rule by decree? We could do worse...TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexiteers sound a lot like supporters of the Enabling Act of 1933.Scott_P said: ! smelling salts on standby. -1 -
No, I am clear about what that nation currently is. It is you who dislikes the basic concept of the nation as you have made clear on here a number of times before.williamglenn said:
You're ambivalent about what that nation is, so your fanaticism is hard to take seriously even on its own terms.Richard_Tyndall said:
I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.OldKingCole said:
I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.0 -
Tyndallism?Richard_Tyndall said:
LOL. What I have described is neither pure Libertarianism nor anarchy.Beverley_C said:
Pure Libertarianism or possibly anarchy. Neither of which have ever worked.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with. If there is a need for multinational action then it can be taken through multinational bodies such as the UN or WTO or through bilateral agreements. But no power is surrendered from the national level.
Now you engage in your childish little logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum but it works of course the other way. The opposite argument to the non-existent 'Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire' is one world government that controls every aspect of your life. Neither are likely or desirable. So your argument, as it usually does, fails.
Cooperation and togetherness, OTOH, is how humanity has made progress.0 -
The emulsified high fat offal tube?Nigel_Foremain said:
What has the EU ever done for us?OldKingCole said:
Really, really don't see it.Richard_Tyndall said:
I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.OldKingCole said:
I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.
It was great as a trading bloc, but now it has loftier ambitions.0 -
That seems a lot less definite than her denials that she would do other things she went on to do. :-(Scott_P said:0 -
Hear hear. The world might be a long way from perfect but for the vast majority of people life is far better now than it was 45 years ago.Nigel_Foremain said:
You must have a very glass half empty view of recent history. The last 45 years have been an unparalleled success by virtually every measure if you are fortunate to have been born a westerner. The only downsides are probably environmental, though even that has its optimistic aspects in the sense people are beginning to take notice. You allow your hatred of the EU to cloud what has been an amazing period of enlightenment, now sadly to be replaced by a period of populism and general gullibility .Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....0 -
That was Blair's Civil Contingencies Act of 2004. It already exists and is on the statute book. I hope you were protesting against that as loudly as you now protest against Brexit.TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexiteers sound a lot like supporters of the Enabling Act of 1933.Scott_P said:0 -
If the definition of the nation is transient and amounts to nothing more than the boundaries of the current state, then your rigid system has no meaning. Either England and Scotland are nations that have been unnaturally bound together in a hated supranational entity, or they are not.Richard_Tyndall said:
No, I am clear about what that nation currently is. It is you who dislikes the basic concept of the nation as you have made clear on here a number of times before.williamglenn said:
You're ambivalent about what that nation is, so your fanaticism is hard to take seriously even on its own terms.Richard_Tyndall said:
I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.OldKingCole said:
I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.0 -
I did and have.Richard_Tyndall said:
That was Blair's Civil Contingencies Act of 2004. It already exists and is on the statute book. I hope you were protesting against that as loudly as you now protest against Brexit.TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexiteers sound a lot like supporters of the Enabling Act of 1933.Scott_P said:
I've often said if my dream to be the country's first directly elected Dictator is to be realised, I'd be using the 2004 CCA to achieve my dream.0 -
I'm a seller at 650.Pulpstar said:
If @Thescreamingeagles analogy is correct then the Tories could be on track to win all 650 seats in the House of Commons shortlyRobD said:
HM rule by decree? We could do worse...TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexiteers sound a lot like supporters of the Enabling Act of 1933.Scott_P said: !0 -
The beard that is feared does it again for England. Shame he can’t bloody bat.0
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That the nation state must not give up powers to a larger entity is an arbitrary cut-off. Leaving aside practicalities, there is nothing inherently flawed with the notion of government at a higher level than that.Richard_Tyndall said:It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with. If there is a need for multinational action then it can be taken through multinational bodies such as the UN or WTO or through bilateral agreements. But no power is surrendered from the national level.
Now you engage in your childish little logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum but it works of course the other way. The opposite argument to the non-existent 'Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire' is one world government that controls every aspect of your life. Neither are likely or desirable. So your argument, as it usually does, fails.
It is all about the principle and logistics of decision making. The interplay of efficiency and democratic accountability.
What colour jumper to buy? - the individual.
Where to move house? - the family.
How often the bins should be emptied? - local govt.
What the basic rate of income tax should be? - national govt.
Being examples.
But one can think of many matters which it can easily be argued ought to be decided at a supra-national level:
The minimum penalty for murder.
The age of sexual consent.
The definition for tax purposes of income vs capital.
The voting age.
The boundaries of freedom of speech.
The limits on carbon emissions.
Etc.
There is nothing magical about the nation state.0 -
A new Hope comes to the crease...FrancisUrquhart said:The beard that is feared does it again for England. Shame he can’t bloody bat.
0 -
It's a shame there's no Sporting Index market on seat spreads for the next election (I appreciate there can't be because the number of seats might yet be altered). Pricing it right now would be a subject of a lot of contention.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm a seller at 650.Pulpstar said:
If @Thescreamingeagles analogy is correct then the Tories could be on track to win all 650 seats in the House of Commons shortlyRobD said:
HM rule by decree? We could do worse...TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexiteers sound a lot like supporters of the Enabling Act of 1933.Scott_P said: !0 -
According to what I could find on Wikipedia, there are slightly more Brits in the EU than in Australia.brendan16 said:
You can go to 160+ countries visa free with a UK passport for up to 3 months even six months. Most of the 30 or so which require UK citizens to get visas aren't places which would be first choice for a vacation anyway e.g. Yemen and Iran. Apart from when you enter the US rarely are you questioned - they are happy to accept your tourist cash and assume you will leave by the deadline.OldKingCole said:
There are a lot of unquantifiable benefits. Freedom of movement is only one, and what it leads to, the liberation of ideas, the feeling that one can go and do things, as opposed to being constrained by national borders.Beverley_C said:
In your opinion.Richard_Tyndall said:And no the benefits if living in the EU in no way outweigh the costs.
Yes, we can go to Australia or Canada, but it's a major exercise, not a matter of a short flight or a ferry.
For the vast majority of Brits that is sufficient. Despite us being in the EU (and its forebears) for nearly 50 years there are more British citizens resident in Australia - where we lost FOM in the 70s - than there are in the whole of the EU outside the British isles.
95% plus of UK citizens probably have never and will never take advantage of FOM in the real sense i.e. moving to an EU member state for more than 3 months for anything but a holiday. Only 1.5 million or so do now. The vast majority just aren't interested - and see its negatives in terms of not being able to control immigration levels here and thus plan for housing and public services.
And if - beyond a 6 euro ESTA style fee every 3 years (less than the price of a seat on a Ryanair flight) - the EU/EEA were ever to decide to make tourism for Brits difficult well there are 130 other nations that don't. So people can vote with their wallets and holiday in places where they are welcome.
Travelling around SE Asia I've often found a visa necessary, although it's usually only a question of a couple of days to get one.
The point is too, that the EU figures appear to be slowly and steadily increasing, both for work and for retirement.
I'll agree that tourism is often the reason for travel, but it's quite noticeable how many Brits one sees working in such places as the Canaries.0 -
The Finance Bill has its House of Lords proceedings on 4 February.
After that and Royal Assent given, Parliament can be prorogated as income tax can be collected from 5 April.0 -
That looks more like May is saying "please don't ask me to speculate" rather than ruling out the option?Scott_P said:0 -
They will close down the internet shortly. Stock up on quill pens, parchment and sealingg wax while stocks last.Nigel_Foremain said:
ERG meets Zanu PF. They will be occupying Remain owned farms nextTheScreamingEagles said:
Brexiteers sound a lot like supporters of the Enabling Act of 1933.Scott_P said:0 -
What does it imply if he's saying that not all the legislation required for No Deal will be ready for Brexit date?Scott_P said:
That even No Dealers would have to ask for an extension?0 -
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I'd have thought the limits on carbon emissions are the only one that could reasonably decided above national level.kinabalu said:
That the nation state must not give up powers to a larger entity is essentially an arbitrary cut-off.Richard_Tyndall said:It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with. If there is a need for multinational action then it can be taken through multinational bodies such as the UN or WTO or through bilateral agreements. But no power is surrendered from the national level.
Now you engage in your childish little logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum but it works of course the other way. The opposite argument to the non-existent 'Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire' is one world government that controls every aspect of your life. Neither are likely or desirable. So your argument, as it usually does, fails.
Leaving aside practicalities, there is nothing inherently flawed with the notion of government at a higher level than the nation state.
It is all about the principle and logistics of decision making. The interplay of efficiency and democratic accountability.
What colour jumper to buy? - the individual.
Where to move house? - the family.
How often the bins should be emptied? - local govt.
What the basic rate of income tax should be? - national govt.
Being examples.
But one can think of many matters which it can easily be argued ought to be decided at a supra-national level:
The minimum penalty for murder.
The age of sexual consent.
The definition for tax purposes of income vs capital.
The voting age.
The boundaries of freedom of speech.
The limits on carbon emissions.
Etc.
There is nothing magical about the nation state.0 -
But they still owe us a port after giving away Calais to the French at the end of Mary's reign.Scott_P said:0 -
Spain have been bitching about Gibraltar even when we were at the table. Their fault for handing it over in perpetuity....Scott_P said:0 -
They also gave up Menorca in perpetuity in the same treaty, but got it back.RobD said:
SuOldKingCole said:
According to what I could find on Wikipedia, there are slightly more Brits in the EU than in Australia.brendan16 said:
You can go to 160+ countries visa free with a UK passport for up to 3 months even six months. Most of the 30 or so which require UK citizens to get visas aren't places which would be first choice for a vacation anyway e.g. Yemen and Iran. Apart from when you enter the US rarely are you questioned - they are happy to accept your tourist cash and assume you will leave by the deadline.OldKingCole said:
There are a lot of unquantifiable benefits. Freedom of movement is only one, and what it leads to, the liberation of ideas, the feeling that one can go and do things, as opposed to being constrained by national borders.Beverley_C said:
In your opinion.Richard_Tyndall said:And no the benefits if living in the EU in no way outweigh the costs.
Yes, we can go to Australia or Canada, but it's a major exercise, not a matter of a short flight or a ferry.
For the vast majority of Brits that is sufficient. Despite us being in the EU (and its forebears) for nearly 50 years there are more British citizens resident in Australia - where we lost FOM in the 70s - than there are in the whole of the EU outside the British isles.
95% plus of UK citizens probably have never and will never take advantage of FOM in the real sense i.e. moving to an EU member state for more than 3 months for anything but a holiday. Only 1.5 million or so do now. The vast majority just aren't interested - and see its negatives in terms of not being able to control immigration levels here and thus plan for housing and public services.
And if - beyond a 6 euro ESTA style fee every 3 years (less than the price of a seat on a Ryanair flight) - the EU/EEA were ever to decide to make tourism for Brits difficult well there are 130 other nations that don't. So people can vote with their wallets and holiday in places where they are welcome.
Travelling around SE Asia I've often found a visa necessary, although it's usually only a question of a couple of days to get one.
The point is too, that the EU figures appear to be slowly and steadily increasing, both for work and for retirement.
I'll agree that tourism is often the reason for travel, but it's quite noticeable how many Brits one sees working in such places as the Canaries.
Spain have been bitching about Gibraltar even when we were at the table. Their fault for handing it over in perpetuity....Scott_P said:0 -
Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.williamglenn said:0 -
Do they ever keep their word?williamglenn said:
They also gave up Menorca in perpetuity in the same treaty, but got it back. 0 -
Hmm. I suspect JRM is about to be denounced as a scaremonger by someone even loonier.Scott_P said:
That looks to be the gist of itChris said:What does it imply if he's saying that not all the legislation required for No Deal will be ready for Brexit date?
That even No Dealers would have to ask for an extension?0 -
'According to what I could find on Wikipedia, there are slightly more Brits in the EU than in Australia.
Travelling around SE Asia I've often found a visa necessary, although it's usually only a question of a couple of days to get one.
The point is too, that the EU figures appear to be slowly and steadily increasing, both for work and for retirement.
I'll agree that tourism is often the reason for travel, but it's quite noticeable how many Brits one sees working in such places as the Canaries'
Does that figure include Brits in the Irish republic (150,000 plus) - who I wouldn't count due to the CTA. Also there are many residents of Australia who don't realise they are British citizens - about 10% of their parliament at the last count!!
I accept your point - and I don't deny there are some - but I would still suggest 90% plus of Brits will never take advantage of FOM (in terms of moving to work for more than 3 months) so its loss is not that big a deal for them. Most cant afford to move, don't speak other languages and bluntly most would rather stay at home near family and friends. You don't miss what you never did.0 -
Some of them, going through the lobby with Labour, the SNP, and the LibDems.IanB2 said:
Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.williamglenn said:0 -
At least if we ever need to rank PB'ers in terms of idiocy on a scale from one to a hundred, we will have you to peg in the ground to represent the upper limit.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with. If there is a need for multinational action then it can be taken through multinational bodies such as the UN or WTO or through bilateral agreements. But no power is surrendered from the national level.
Now you engage in your childish little logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum but it works of course the other way. The opposite argument to the non-existent 'Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire' is one world government that controls every aspect of your life. Neither are likely or desirable. So your argument, as it usually does, fails.0 -
Charles II?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, suspending Parliament because it disagrees with you is a bit Charles II.
However, MPs trying to ignore the will of the electorate is equally stupid. But because that's the political-media class' consensus, it'll get far less opprobrium.0 -
Brexit - the policy that keeps on giving. The Dutch must love us....IanB2 said:
Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.williamglenn said:0 -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-european-regional-development-fund-operational-programme-2014-to-2020Nigel_Foremain said:
What has the EU ever done for us?OldKingCole said:
Really, really don't see it.Richard_Tyndall said:
I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.OldKingCole said:
I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.
0 -
Cromwell.paulyork64 said:
Charles II?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, suspending Parliament because it disagrees with you is a bit Charles II.
However, MPs trying to ignore the will of the electorate is equally stupid. But because that's the political-media class' consensus, it'll get far less opprobrium.
0 -
Charles II got away with it - he dissolved parliament in 1681 (it wasn't the first time) and ruled without it until 1685 when he died of an apoplectic fit.paulyork64 said:
Charles II?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, suspending Parliament because it disagrees with you is a bit Charles II.
However, MPs trying to ignore the will of the electorate is equally stupid. But because that's the political-media class' consensus, it'll get far less opprobrium.
His dad wasn't so lucky.
The exclusion bill which caused Charles II's angst wanted to remove his brother from the line of succession. The Abhorrers—those who thought the Exclusion Bill was abhorrent—were named Tories (after a term for dispossessed Irish Catholic bandits), while the Petitioners—those who supported a petitioning campaign in favour of the Exclusion Bill—were called Whigs (after a term for rebellious Scottish Presbyterians). And that had quite a long term impact - as the 'dispossessed Irish catholic bandits' are in power today!0 -
Giving us a fraction of our own money back to us at great bureaucratic expense?Streeter said:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-european-regional-development-fund-operational-programme-2014-to-2020Nigel_Foremain said:
What has the EU ever done for us?OldKingCole said:
Really, really don't see it.Richard_Tyndall said:
I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.OldKingCole said:
I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.0 -
Yet UK employment keeps rising.IanB2 said:
Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.williamglenn said:0 -
And accept ever closer union going forward?ReggieCide said:0 -
Obvious retort. Very poor.Philip_Thompson said:
Giving us a fraction of our own money back to us at great bureaucratic expense?Streeter said:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-european-regional-development-fund-operational-programme-2014-to-2020Nigel_Foremain said:
What has the EU ever done for us?OldKingCole said:
Really, really don't see it.Richard_Tyndall said:
I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.OldKingCole said:
I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.0 -
If we revoke Article 50 we stay in the EU on the current terms (excluding Cameron's renegotiation, so we don't get the political declaration that we're not subject to ever-closer union and, most importantly, we don't get the guarantee that we won't be disadvantaged because we're not in the Eurozone).ReggieCide said:0 -
But accurate.Streeter said:
Obvious retort. Very poor.Philip_Thompson said:
Giving us a fraction of our own money back to us at great bureaucratic expense?Streeter said:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-european-regional-development-fund-operational-programme-2014-to-2020Nigel_Foremain said:
What has the EU ever done for us?OldKingCole said:
Really, really don't see it.Richard_Tyndall said:
I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.OldKingCole said:
I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.0 -
Does anyone have any Stuttgart/Ludwigsburg related tourist trips?0
-
After years and years of stagnation wages seem to be rising as well?Sean_F said:
Yet UK employment keeps rising.IanB2 said:
Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.williamglenn said:0 -
thanks. I didn't know he'd tried his luck at messing about with parliament too.brendan16 said:
Charles II got away with it - he dissolved parliament in 1681 (it wasn't the first time) and ruled without it until 1685 when he died of an apoplectic fit.paulyork64 said:
Charles II?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, suspending Parliament because it disagrees with you is a bit Charles II.
However, MPs trying to ignore the will of the electorate is equally stupid. But because that's the political-media class' consensus, it'll get far less opprobrium.
His dad wasn't so lucky.0 -
Remain is available on terms identical to our current membership by simply revoking Article 50 in line with our constitutional requirements. I think Cameron's renegotiation is dead.ReggieCide said:0 -
This doesn't seem to get much air time, does it?Richard_Nabavi said:
If we revoke Article 50 we stay in the EU on the current terms (excluding Cameron's renegotiation, so we don't get the political declaration that we're not subject to ever-closer union and, most importantly, we don't get the guarantee that we won't be disadvantaged because we're not in the Eurozone).ReggieCide said:0 -
What other rights can we remove on the basis that it's no big deal because only 10% of people use them? How about the right to a fair trial, or hebeas corpus, or to watch a professional football match or to be a member of a political party, or to ride a motor bike? There are so many. It would make life so much easier.brendan16 said:
'According to what I could find on Wikipedia, there are slightly more Brits in the EU than in Australia.
Travelling around SE Asia I've often found a visa necessary, although it's usually only a question of a couple of days to get one.
The point is too, that the EU figures appear to be slowly and steadily increasing, both for work and for retirement.
I'll agree that tourism is often the reason for travel, but it's quite noticeable how many Brits one sees working in such places as the Canaries'
Does that figure include Brits in the Irish republic (150,000 plus) - who I wouldn't count due to the CTA. Also there are many residents of Australia who don't realise they are British citizens - about 10% of their parliament at the last count!!
I accept your point - and I don't deny there are some - but I would still suggest 90% plus of Brits will never take advantage of FOM (in terms of moving to work for more than 3 months) so its loss is not that big a deal for them. Most cant afford to move, don't speak other languages and bluntly most would rather stay at home near family and friends. You don't miss what you never did.
0 -
Regrettably the referendum in 2016 was lost.ReggieCide said:
This doesn't seem to get much air time, does it?Richard_Nabavi said:
If we revoke Article 50 we stay in the EU on the current terms (excluding Cameron's renegotiation, so we don't get the political declaration that we're not subject to ever-closer union and, most importantly, we don't get the guarantee that we won't be disadvantaged because we're not in the Eurozone).ReggieCide said:0 -
Well, off the top of my head...Nigel_Foremain said:What has the EU ever done for us?
- they forced us to clean up our beaches
- they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
- easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
- better drug regulation
- more controls on tobacco resale
- cheaper flights & holidays
- cheaper phone roaming
- upset Richard Tyndall
- enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation
0 -
Brits have often been prepared to move for work..... think Auf Wiedersehn Pet...... which was based on fact,....... and I suggest that while it's certainly true of my generation it's less so for my children and is less so again of my grandchildren's.brendan16 said:
'According to what I could find on Wikipedia, there are slightly more Brits in the EU than in Australia.
Travelling around SE Asia I've often found a visa necessary, although it's usually only a question of a couple of days to get one.
The point is too, that the EU figures appear to be slowly and steadily increasing, both for work and for retirement.
I'll agree that tourism is often the reason for travel, but it's quite noticeable how many Brits one sees working in such places as the Canaries'
Does that figure include Brits in the Irish republic (150,000 plus) - who I wouldn't count due to the CTA. Also there are many residents of Australia who don't realise they are British citizens - about 10% of their parliament at the last count!!
I accept your point - and I don't deny there are some - but I would still suggest 90% plus of Brits will never take advantage of FOM (in terms of moving to work for more than 3 months) so its loss is not that big a deal for them. Most cant afford to move, don't speak other languages and bluntly most would rather stay at home near family and friends. You don't miss what you never did.
One of my children studied at a German FE unit while at Uni and one of my grandchildren certainly has friends teaching at European Uni's. Two of my nieces worked as au pairs in Spain.0 -
Mr. 64, aye, Charles II often suspended Parliament when it annoyed him. Must be said, quite a few people around that time did likewise.0
-
Many people don't seem to think that that referendum counted.OblitusSumMe said:
Regrettably the referendum in 2016 was lost.ReggieCide said:
This doesn't seem to get much air time, does it?Richard_Nabavi said:
If we revoke Article 50 we stay in the EU on the current terms (excluding Cameron's renegotiation, so we don't get the political declaration that we're not subject to ever-closer union and, most importantly, we don't get the guarantee that we won't be disadvantaged because we're not in the Eurozone).ReggieCide said:0 -
Beverley_C said:
Well, off the top of my head...Streeter said:
What has the EU ever done for us?
- they forced us to clean up our beaches
- they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
- easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
- better drug regulation
- more controls on tobacco resale
- cheaper flights & holidays
- cheaper phone roaming
- upset Richard Tyndall
- enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation
0 -
Cheers. I need to study his reign a bit more. It's the neglected bit between the civil war and the glorious revolution.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 64, aye, Charles II often suspended Parliament when it annoyed him. Must be said, quite a few people around that time did likewise.
0 -
Are you sure you've got your anatomical reference right?Beverley_C said:
Well, off the top of my head...Nigel_Foremain said:What has the EU ever done for us?
- they forced us to clean up our beaches
- they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
- easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
- better drug regulation
- more controls on tobacco resale
- cheaper flights & holidays
- cheaper phone roaming
- upset Richard Tyndall
- enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation0 -
Ruined!Sean_F said:
Yet UK employment keeps rising.IanB2 said:
Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.williamglenn said:0 -
Entirely paid for by the exchequer (as we are net contributors).Streeter said:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-european-regional-development-fund-operational-programme-2014-to-2020Nigel_Foremain said:
What has the EU ever done for us?OldKingCole said:
Really, really don't see it.Richard_Tyndall said:
I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.OldKingCole said:
I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.Nigelb said:
Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...Richard_Tyndall said:
It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.Beverley_C said:
Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?Richard_Tyndall said:
I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.Beverley_C said:
When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?
Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.
By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.0 -
If we revoke A50 yesReggieCide said:
And as I support TM deal, if that was eliminated I would vote remain0 -
It's odd isn't it. Apparently full-employment, a few straws about wages rising, but there's still a significant number of our fellow-countryfolk in poverty.RobD said:
Ruined!Sean_F said:
Yet UK employment keeps rising.IanB2 said:
Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.williamglenn said:0 -
Yes.ReggieCide said:
Are you sure you've got your anatomical reference right?Beverley_C said:
Well, off the top of my head...Nigel_Foremain said:What has the EU ever done for us?
- they forced us to clean up our beaches
- they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
- easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
- better drug regulation
- more controls on tobacco resale
- cheaper flights & holidays
- cheaper phone roaming
- upset Richard Tyndall
- enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation0 -
Kay Burley of Sky has been reporting all day from the Irish border and only a handful of vehicles have passed her
It is so quiet why all the fuss0 -
Your first sentence seems at variance with the opinion of others. Your second implies that you wouldn't support any other deal (which seems a bit picky) and that you are selectively discounting the validity of your previous vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If we revoke A50 yesReggieCide said:
And as I support TM deal, if that was eliminated I would vote remain0 -
God bless the IrishBeverley_C said:
Yes.ReggieCide said:
Are you sure you've got your anatomical reference right?Beverley_C said:
Well, off the top of my head...Nigel_Foremain said:What has the EU ever done for us?
- they forced us to clean up our beaches
- they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
- easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
- better drug regulation
- more controls on tobacco resale
- cheaper flights & holidays
- cheaper phone roaming
- upset Richard Tyndall
- enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation0 -
Does she know what's like normally? Ireland's not generally a 'busy' island, outside such places as Dublin, Belfast and Cork.Big_G_NorthWales said:Kay Burley of Sky has been reporting all day from the Irish border and only a handful of vehicles have passed her
It is so quiet why all the fuss0 -
Most Irish exports go via Wales to Harwich and Dover - only stopping off to drop off their pollution and particulates.Big_G_NorthWales said:Kay Burley of Sky has been reporting all day from the Irish border and only a handful of vehicles have passed her
It is so quiet why all the fuss
Also there are 360+ crossing points between Ulster and the South. Good luck erecting a Trumpian "Berlin Wall" to block all those off.
0 -
SouthamObserver said:
What other rights can we remove on the basis that it's no big deal because only 10% of people use them? How about the right to a fair trial, or hebeas corpus, or to watch a professional football match or to be a member of a political party, or to ride a motor bike? There are so many. It would make life so much easier.brendan16 said:
'According to what I could find on Wikipedia, there are slightly more Brits in the EU than in Australia.
Travelling around SE Asia I've often found a visa necessary, although it's usually only a question of a couple of days to get one.
The point is too, that the EU figures appear to be slowly and steadily increasing, both for work and for retirement.
I'll agree that tourism is often the reason for travel, but it's quite noticeable how many Brits one sees working in such places as the Canaries'
Does that figure include Brits in the Irish republic (150,000 plus) - who I wouldn't count due to the CTA. Also there are many residents of Australia who don't realise they are British citizens - about 10% of their parliament at the last count!!
I accept your point - and I don't deny there are some - but I would still suggest 90% plus of Brits will never take advantage of FOM (in terms of moving to work for more than 3 months) so its loss is not that big a deal for them. Most cant afford to move, don't speak other languages and bluntly most would rather stay at home near family and friends. You don't miss what you never did.
Parliament via legislation restricts lots of rights some of the population would like unrestricted ability to do or have?
selling class A drugs (or being able to buy them at your corner shop)
foxhunting
gun ownership
molesting sheep and more
We used of course to have freedom of movement to much of the Commonwealth until the 1970s. We joined the EEC - and understandably as we closed the door to them they closed the door to us. If you look at surveys today its Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc that British people would like to move to - not Slovakia or Estonia. But those rights were taken away - because we made a democratic choice to join the EEC against the will of those who voted no in 1975.
And we made a democratic choice to leave the EU in 2016 - and if May's deal ever passes FOM is likely to end.
If you want libertarianism that's fine - but there will always be laws and restrictions over what you want to do based on what parliament following elections decides.
0 -
But easily does not equate to most appropriately. In many cases it would be better to legislate globally - e.g. measures to prevent tax fraud and money laundering - it is simply that we have no mechanism for that.Sean_F said:The rest can quite easily be handled at national level.
Ditto where it makes moral sense - e.g. the age of sexual consent.
Often we end up doing things down at national level not because it is sensible but because it is all that we can do.
Fair enough, one must be realistic but the inability to legislate supra-nationally is a bug not a feature.0 -
I don't know if you saw but apparently the supposed Skripal and Steele (of dossier fame) link was Russian disinfo, and it was quite widely parrotted by the usual suspects in this country at the time of the attack.FrancisUrquhart said:The original viral Covington video was spread by a Twitter account called @2020fight, a new account with tens of thousands of followers that specialized in incendiary but ideologically inconsistent political content and was attributed to a “teacher” from California, despite using the photograph of a blogger from Brazil.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/23/controversy-students-mock-native-american-strikes-national-chord
Russians pushing fake news from the other side now...
Actually it backs up what Sam Harris podcast guest said the other week at Russian interference in social media, it wasn't setup as pro-Trump, it existed before him and was being used to push discontent.0 -
West Indies 89 for 1 after 30 overs.
Moeen has the only wicket.-1 -
G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).Big_G_NorthWales said:Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions
And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth
Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend0 -
They gave us a EHIC.Beverley_C said:
Yes.ReggieCide said:
Are you sure you've got your anatomical reference right?Beverley_C said:
Well, off the top of my head...Nigel_Foremain said:What has the EU ever done for us?
- they forced us to clean up our beaches
- they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
- easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
- better drug regulation
- more controls on tobacco resale
- cheaper flights & holidays
- cheaper phone roaming
- upset Richard Tyndall
- enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation
The UK had to pass environmental legislation which cleaned up the air and reduced our electricity bills.
They allowed me to buy consumer goods online from Germany, Netherlands or Belgium as easily as from the UK.
It'll all go over leavers' heads though. The statistic that puzzles me is the people who think 'no deal' means stay in the EU and don't reach a deal to leave.0 -
So what is your moral sense about the correct age of consent? Many countries, including the USA have legal child marriage. Others are higher than ours of 16.kinabalu said:
But easily does not equate to most appropriately. In many cases it would be better to legislate globally - e.g. measures to prevent tax fraud and money laundering - it is simply that we have no mechanism for that.Sean_F said:The rest can quite easily be handled at national level.
Ditto where it makes moral sense - e.g. the age of sexual consent.
Often we end up doing things down at national level not because it is sensible but because it all that we can do.
Fair enough, one must be realistic but the inability to legislate supra-nationally is a bug not a feature.
0 -
If A50 is revoked in accordance with our constitutional requirements leaving is cancelled and we remain as we are on our present termsReggieCide said:
Your first sentence seems at variance with the opinion of others. Your second implies that you wouldn't support any other deal (which seems a bit picky) and that you are selectively discounting the validity of your previous vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If we revoke A50 yesReggieCide said:
And as I support TM deal, if that was eliminated I would vote remain
On your second point if TM resubmits her deal or an improved deal I will support it but if it is rejected I would support remain, as no deal is 100% unacceptable to me0 -
hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?malcolmg said:
G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).Big_G_NorthWales said:Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions
And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth
Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend0 -
Most poverty is those in employment.OldKingCole said:
It's odd isn't it. Apparently full-employment, a few straws about wages rising, but there's still a significant number of our fellow-countryfolk in poverty.RobD said:
Ruined!Sean_F said:
Yet UK employment keeps rising.IanB2 said:
Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.williamglenn said:
Depends on the definition of poverty of course and if it is measured relative to others then there will always be people in poverty.0 -
As I recall the 1975 campaign the pro-EEC majority was quite substantial.brendan16 said:SouthamObserver said:
What other rights can we remove on the basis that it's no big deal because only 10% of people use them? How about the right to a fair trial, or hebeas corpus, or to watch a professional football match or to be a member of a political party, or to ride a motor bike? There are so many. It would make life so much easier.brendan16 said:
'According to what I could find on Wikipedia, there are slightly more Brits in the EU than in Australia.
Travelling around SE Asia I've often found a visa necessary, although it's usually only a question of a couple of days to get one.
The point is too, that the EU figures appear to be slowly and steadily increasing, both for work and for retirement.
I'll agree that tourism is often the reason for travel, but it's quite noticeable how many Brits one sees working in such places as the Canaries'
Does that figure include Brits in the Irish republic (150,000 plus) - who I wouldn't count due to the CTA. Also there are many residents of Australia who don't realise they are British citizens - about 10% of their parliament at the last count!!
I accept your point - and I don't deny there are some - but I would still suggest 90% plus of Brits will never take advantage of FOM (in terms of moving to work for more than 3 months) so its loss is not that big a deal for them. Most cant afford to move, don't speak other languages and bluntly most would rather stay at home near family and friends. You don't miss what you never did.
Parliament via legislation restricts lots of rights some of the population would like unrestricted ability to do or have?
selling class A drugs (or being able to buy them at your corner shop)
foxhunting
gun ownership
molesting sheep and more
We used of course to have freedom of movement to much of the Commonwealth until the 1970s. We joined the EEC - and understandably as we closed the door to them they closed the door to us. If you look at surveys today its Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc that British people would like to move to - not Slovakia or Estonia. But those rights were taken away - because we made a democratic choice to join the EEC against the will of those who voted no in 1975.
And we made a democratic choice to leave the EU in 2016 - and if May's deal ever passes FOM is likely to end.
If you want libertarianism that's fine - but there will always be laws and restrictions over what you want to do based on what parliament following elections decides.
Secondly has anyone suggested we're going to get back freedom of movement with Australia etc? Given the way the Aussies are behaving over immigration I think it's highly unlikely.
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Hi Malc - my family like Gove's work in his present role and to be honest I have no problem with him as Chancellor or even PMmalcolmg said:
G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).Big_G_NorthWales said:Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions
And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth
Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend0 -
There will always be people who are better paid than others, but we do seem to have gone back to Victorian levels where some people are being paid less than they need to live a tolerable life.David_Evershed said:
Most poverty is those in employment.OldKingCole said:
It's odd isn't it. Apparently full-employment, a few straws about wages rising, but there's still a significant number of our fellow-countryfolk in poverty.RobD said:
Ruined!Sean_F said:
Yet UK employment keeps rising.IanB2 said:
Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.williamglenn said:
Depends on the definition of poverty of course and if it is measured relative to others then there will always be people in poverty.0 -
I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on the age of consent. Most of would probably agree that it's wrong to have sex with pre-pubescent children, but there are entirely valid arguments to be had about whether the age should be 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18, and whether it makes a difference if the older party is in a position of authority. I can see no reason at all to set such a law at a worldwide level.kinabalu said:
But easily does not equate to most appropriately. In many cases it would be better to legislate globally - e.g. measures to prevent tax fraud and money laundering - it is simply that we have no mechanism for that.Sean_F said:The rest can quite easily be handled at national level.
Ditto where it makes moral sense - e.g. the age of sexual consent.
Often we end up doing things down at national level not because it is sensible but because it is all that we can do.
Fair enough, one must be realistic but the inability to legislate supra-nationally is a bug not a feature.
Different countries will come to different conclusions on such a matter, along with such things as taxation, criminal justice, free speech, the age of majority etc. I can see no pressing reasons to take such decisions out of their hands.,
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The Dutch may not be so happy when their agricultural exports to the UK go down, replaced by import substitution in the UK.williamglenn said:0 -
This isn't even consistent across the EU - it's 15 in France and 14 in Germany for example, albeit with some caveats. I'm not aware that anyone is seriously proposing the EU focus much time on coming up with a standard?dixiedean said:
So what is your moral sense about the correct age of consent? Many countries, including the USA have legal child marriage. Others are higher than ours of 16.kinabalu said:
But easily does not equate to most appropriately. In many cases it would be better to legislate globally - e.g. measures to prevent tax fraud and money laundering - it is simply that we have no mechanism for that.Sean_F said:The rest can quite easily be handled at national level.
Ditto where it makes moral sense - e.g. the age of sexual consent.
Often we end up doing things down at national level not because it is sensible but because it all that we can do.
Fair enough, one must be realistic but the inability to legislate supra-nationally is a bug not a feature.0
