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If you check the twitter thread you'll see that a number of leading Tories voted against establishing both the Scottish Parliament and Welsh assembly even after these had been endorsed by referendum.Richard_Tyndall said:
Because it is not the same situation. In the case of the Welsh Assembly the original result of the referendum had been enacted and the assembly had been set up in 1999. What is now being proposed is to have a second referendum before the first has even been enacted.Anazina said:
Yes, the Welsh referendum example completely blows a hole in the government's 'undemocratic to have a second referendum' argument. To be honest, I'm surprised we hadn't thought of this one before now!!SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
Now I am very happy for you to have another referendum on rejoining the EU in, say, 9 or 10 years which would be exactly the same as what the Tories campaigned for in 2005.0 -
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Yes very similar - great minds, eh!Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is a variation on my early suggestion that the HOC will amend the deal to subject to a deal/ remain referendum and TM will enact the legislation on a cross party basis and effectively head a GNUBenpointer said:
An alternative is she could come back and amend the MV by adding "subject to approval in a Referendum versus No Deal and Remain (with a consequent extension of A50)".Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect that the amendments and the HOC will dictate the way forward and, as said, TM will act in a caretaker capacity until the way forward is agreedPhilip_Thompson said:
So what should happen instead?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And how does that help anythinganothernick said:
It is hard to see how she can carry on if the deal goes down by a big margin.DavidL said:I don't know if I am just worn down by this chaos but I seriously wonder if we are in the last week of May's Premiership in anything other than a caretaker capacity. She has run out of road and if her deal is rejected by 150+ tomorrow, which seems all too likely, she surely has to go.
That would pass in the HoC imo.
In any event, we won't be exiting on March 29th.
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That's my favourite thing about the brexit shambles.El_Capitano said:
Don't forget the lectern appearance which will excite everyone greatly for three hours until she stands up and announces NOTHING HAS CHANGED yet again.rottenborough said:anothernick said:
It is hard to see how she can carry on if the deal goes down by a big margin.DavidL said:I don't know if I am just worn down by this chaos but I seriously wonder if we are in the last week of May's Premiership in anything other than a caretaker capacity. She has run out of road and if her deal is rejected by 150+ tomorrow, which seems all too likely, she surely has to go.
Have you not being following how Mrs May works?
She will announce a new trip to Brussels and a new vote in a week or two's time.
There'll be a row, because precedence says you can't put same vote again in same session, but she'll argue there has been some minor textual change imho.
In fairness not much will have changed if the EU won't budge, until the commons grows a spine and admits it never wanted to leave and has no intention of doing so.0 -
Presumably the minor textual change will be the addition of the words "nothing has changed"rottenborough said:anothernick said:
It is hard to see how she can carry on if the deal goes down by a big margin.DavidL said:I don't know if I am just worn down by this chaos but I seriously wonder if we are in the last week of May's Premiership in anything other than a caretaker capacity. She has run out of road and if her deal is rejected by 150+ tomorrow, which seems all too likely, she surely has to go.
Have you not being following how Mrs May works?
She will announce a new trip to Brussels and a new vote in a week or two's time.
There'll be a row, because precedence says you can't put same vote again in same session, but she'll argue there has been some minor textual change imho.0 -
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
But was that second referendum proposal after the first one had already been implemented.SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
No one suggests you can't reverse a referendum after it has been implemented as indeed the 2016 referendum is to reverse what was confirmed by the 1975 referendum.0 -
Yes very true. May is like the Lib Dems in 2015.grabcocque said:
These are, after all, the same people who told remainers that voting against her deal meant "no deal", and told leavers that voting against her deal meant "no brexit", and somehow overlooked that one side could hear what she was saying to the other side.Anazina said:Richard_Nabavi said:I must say it does take a politician of unique talents to make an important day on Brexit into a massive own-goal over some long-forgotten votes on the Welsh Assembly two decades ago.
Indeed one can only wonder why someone didn't spot the flaw in the plan.
Number 10's strong suit is not campaigning.0 -
Of courseBenpointer said:
Yes very similar - great minds, eh!Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is a variation on my early suggestion that the HOC will amend the deal to subject to a deal/ remain referendum and TM will enact the legislation on a cross party basis and effectively head a GNUBenpointer said:
An alternative is she could come back and amend the MV by adding "subject to approval in a Referendum versus No Deal and Remain (with a consequent extension of A50)".Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect that the amendments and the HOC will dictate the way forward and, as said, TM will act in a caretaker capacity until the way forward is agreedPhilip_Thompson said:
So what should happen instead?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And how does that help anythinganothernick said:
It is hard to see how she can carry on if the deal goes down by a big margin.DavidL said:I don't know if I am just worn down by this chaos but I seriously wonder if we are in the last week of May's Premiership in anything other than a caretaker capacity. She has run out of road and if her deal is rejected by 150+ tomorrow, which seems all too likely, she surely has to go.
That would pass in the HoC imo.
In any event, we won't be exiting on March 29th.0 -
Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.0 -
Exactly right. Nor do I think a pivot towards Labour would work now unless it comes with what Corbyn and McDonnell surely want above all else - a 2019 general election and the opportunity to win power and set in train a massive and irreversible transfer of wealth and power in favour of working people. Type thing.Sean_F said:I think she could have peeled off a handful of Labour MPs had she reached out, but there was no chance that Corbyn would ever agree to anything she came up with (why should he?) let alone the Lib Dems or SNP.
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Lots of warm words and noble aspirations, but no material change to the WA. Does not, cannot, change any of the fundamental political realities, of course. But we all knew it couldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:This is a rather good thread:
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/10847787565925539840 -
Getting through the lords is not a concern is it? The MV is just for the commons and the lords just not as it. If the commons did back no deal (Which it wont) would the lords just further scupper no deal prep legislation?Philip_Thompson said:
No deal as an option won't get through the Commons or the Lords.Benpointer said:
An alternative is she could come back and amend the MV by adding "subject to approval in a Referendum versus No Deal and Remain (with a consequent extension of A50)".Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect that the amendments and the HOC will dictate the way forward and, as said, TM will act in a caretaker capacity until the way forward is agreedPhilip_Thompson said:
So what should happen instead?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And how does that help anythinganothernick said:
It is hard to see how she can carry on if the deal goes down by a big margin.DavidL said:I don't know if I am just worn down by this chaos but I seriously wonder if we are in the last week of May's Premiership in anything other than a caretaker capacity. She has run out of road and if her deal is rejected by 150+ tomorrow, which seems all too likely, she surely has to go.
That would pass in the HoC imo.
In any event, we won't be exiting on March 29th.0 -
As Big_G keeps saying, perhaps May is more popular out in the country than the commentators give credit for?kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
May will have NOTHING HAS CHANGED chiselled on her headstone.kle4 said:
That's my favourite thing about the brexit shambles.El_Capitano said:
Don't forget the lectern appearance which will excite everyone greatly for three hours until she stands up and announces NOTHING HAS CHANGED yet again.rottenborough said:anothernick said:
It is hard to see how she can carry on if the deal goes down by a big margin.DavidL said:I don't know if I am just worn down by this chaos but I seriously wonder if we are in the last week of May's Premiership in anything other than a caretaker capacity. She has run out of road and if her deal is rejected by 150+ tomorrow, which seems all too likely, she surely has to go.
Have you not being following how Mrs May works?
She will announce a new trip to Brussels and a new vote in a week or two's time.
There'll be a row, because precedence says you can't put same vote again in same session, but she'll argue there has been some minor textual change imho.
In fairness not much will have changed if the EU won't budge, until the commons grows a spine and admits it never wanted to leave and has no intention of doing so.0 -
Of the lost seats, only two could be considered safe, several were in the 1500-2000 majority and the rest were ultra marginal, including the lowest two which had majorities 0f 30 and 22 (the famous East Dumbartonshire 3-way split). They were therefore vulnerable to anti-government swings in the rural seats and a 'Vote Labour to keep out the Tories out' in urban seats.TheScreamingEagles said:
That’s an absolute fuckwangling.Sean_F said:
9 out of 11 in fact.TheScreamingEagles said:
Karma caught up with the SNP much sooner didn’t it?Theuniondivvie said:
So did the Libs. Karma finally caught up with them in 2015.TheScreamingEagles said:
The SNP helped Thatcher to power in 1979.
Wasn’t the 1979 GE when the SNP lost around half their MPs?
Why did they lose so many?
Nationally the SNP lost over 40% of their Oct 1974 voters, but the incumbents held this to much less, often losing by a few hundred or less votes.
PS - this was the last election the Conservatives polled over 30% of the Scottish vote0 -
Even if so its not helping her any.rottenborough said:
As Big_G keeps saying, perhaps May is more popular out in the country than the commentators give credit for?kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Nevertheless some cover for any leaver bright enough to have worked out that their knee jerk opposition to the deal was a mistake.grabcocque said:
Lots of warm words and noble aspirations, but no material change to the WA. Does not, cannot, change any of the fundamental political realities, of course. But we all knew it couldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:This is a rather good thread:
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/10847787565925539840 -
Nothing has changed.0
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Indeed. May has succeeded in destroying her own deal partly by her ridiculously contradictory stance predicting that defeating it would lead to both no deal and no Brexit, and partly because she sold it in such a downbeat fashion "this is the best deal available, I know it's not what you wanted but I couldn't do any better" rather than "this is a really good deal, the EU has backed down on the inviolability of the four freedoms, this give the UK the best of both worlds etc etc."grabcocque said:
These are, after all, the same people who told remainers that voting against her deal meant "no deal", and told leavers that voting against her deal meant "no brexit", and somehow overlooked that one side could hear what she was saying to the other side.Anazina said:Richard_Nabavi said:I must say it does take a politician of unique talents to make an important day on Brexit into a massive own-goal over some long-forgotten votes on the Welsh Assembly two decades ago.
Indeed one can only wonder why someone didn't spot the flaw in the plan.
Number 10's strong suit is not campaigning.0 -
Indeed. Waverers are not the issue, it's genuine switches from those rejecting the deal that is needed. And lots of them.grabcocque said:
Lots of warm words and noble aspirations, but no material change to the WA. Does not, cannot, change any of the fundamental political realities, of course. But we all knew it couldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:This is a rather good thread:
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/10847787565925539840 -
Very thin cover. Many of the ERG painted themselves into a corner with very thick, very slow-drying paint.IanB2 said:
Nevertheless some cover for any leaver bright enough to have worked out that their knee jerk opposition to the deal was a mistake.grabcocque said:
Lots of warm words and noble aspirations, but no material change to the WA. Does not, cannot, change any of the fundamental political realities, of course. But we all knew it couldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:This is a rather good thread:
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/10847787565925539840 -
I think I have splotted a flaw in your argument.IanB2 said:
Nevertheless some cover for any leaver bright enough to have worked out that their knee jerk opposition to the deal was a mistake.grabcocque said:
Lots of warm words and noble aspirations, but no material change to the WA. Does not, cannot, change any of the fundamental political realities, of course. But we all knew it couldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:This is a rather good thread:
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/10847787565925539840 -
YouGov's Chris Curtis tweeting that Labour is down 7% among Remainers (on 2017), only 3% among Leavers... and they had twice as many Remainers to begin with.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn's equivocation strategy can't hold and we're starting to see that.0 -
For the umpteenth time, May says she "doesn't believe" in extending Article 50 or a second referendum, but refuses point blank to rule out either. In others words, she is prepared in extremis to do both.
— Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) January 14, 2019
This is key.0 -
Still don't see the logic in Mrs M trumpeting Parliaments support for Scottish and Welsh devolution after endorsement in a referendum, when she voted against herself?David_Evershed said:
But was that second referendum proposal after the first one had already been implemented.SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
No one suggests you can't reverse a referendum after it has been implemented as indeed the 2016 referendum is to reverse what was confirmed by the 1975 referendum.0 -
More astounding to see the yellow peril in double figures. Heralding a shift from the remainiac reds, following Jezza's outing on Marr?kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Don't exaggerate. Barely more than 100 switchers are required. Just as well she has plenty of time eh?kle4 said:
Indeed. Waverers are not the issue, it's genuine switches from those rejecting the deal that is needed. And lots of them.grabcocque said:
Lots of warm words and noble aspirations, but no material change to the WA. Does not, cannot, change any of the fundamental political realities, of course. But we all knew it couldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:This is a rather good thread:
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/10847787565925539840 -
Stephen Barclay said last week that there were "no plans" to extend A50, which is pretty much a textbook non-denial used when something is being actively considered.0
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Hence the LibDems inching back into double figuresEl_Capitano said:
YouGov's Chris Curtis tweeting that Labour is down 7% among Remainers (on 2017), only 3% among Leavers... and they had twice as many Remainers to begin with.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn's equivocation strategy can't hold and we're starting to see that.0 -
Barnesian said:
For the umpteenth time, May says she "doesn't believe" in extending Article 50 or a second referendum, but refuses point blank to rule out either. In others words, she is prepared in extremis to do both.
— Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) January 14, 2019
This is key.
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/10847867768483799060 -
Absolutely. MPs want to get paid for doing what Brussels tells them without people thinking they are simply puppets on a string for the most part.grabcocque said:Part of the issue with Brexit is nobody has ever really wanted to take back control. Control is hard work, and we're clearly not willing or able as a nation to really put in the work to do it.
What we want is the ILLUSION of control.0 -
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children0 -
YouGov is something of an outlier though, as the rest have the two parties at level-pegging.IanB2 said:
Hence the LibDems inching back into double figuresEl_Capitano said:
YouGov's Chris Curtis tweeting that Labour is down 7% among Remainers (on 2017), only 3% among Leavers... and they had twice as many Remainers to begin with.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn's equivocation strategy can't hold and we're starting to see that.
The difference between YouGov and Survation is that the former puts Labour leavers at 20-25%, the latter has them at 30-35%.0 -
To be fair to Boles (and several other of the 'conspirators'), they have said that they will vote in favour of May's deal before trying to force through their plan.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
I agree with that. The 2005 policy to scrap the assembly is not hypocritical and entirely in keeping with a campaign to rejoin the EU after we have left.Philip_Thompson said:
Another referendum after we leave is entirely democratic and what the Tories proposed in 2005.Anazina said:
Yes, the Welsh referendum example completely blows a hole in the government's 'undemocratic to have a second referendum' argument. To be honest, I'm surprised we hadn't thought of this one before now!!SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
However, May (along with the Brexit crew et al.) voted against the Scottish Parliament after it had be passed by referendum with a 74% yes vote. That is rank hypocrisy of the worst sort now.0 -
Yeah, it's interesting that this big discrepancy seems to have opened up between Yougov and everyone else, in both of their latest polls nowSean_F said:
YouGov is something of an outlier though.IanB2 said:
Hence the LibDems inching back into double figuresEl_Capitano said:
YouGov's Chris Curtis tweeting that Labour is down 7% among Remainers (on 2017), only 3% among Leavers... and they had twice as many Remainers to begin with.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn's equivocation strategy can't hold and we're starting to see that.0 -
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1084786776848379906rottenborough said:Barnesian said:For the umpteenth time, May says she "doesn't believe" in extending Article 50 or a second referendum, but refuses point blank to rule out either. In others words, she is prepared in extremis to do both.
— Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) January 14, 2019
This is key.
If it's him then it's conservatives for remain, rather than for a referendum. May really needs at least the pretence that a referendum is not desired just as a route to remain.
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The only "Something Has Changed" I can see is that May asked the EU for the backstop to be time limited and the EU told her to bugger off.
If anything, that should firm up opposition to May's Deal in tomorrow's vote.
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If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.0 -
For at least some of the hard Leavers (*coughBoris*) it's more about their own political careers than anything else. Being able to scream "betrayal" is potentially advantageous for themBig_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children0 -
Owned by a Tory, or Putin, or a lizard.Stereotomy said:
Yeah, it's interesting that this big discrepancy seems to have opened up between Yougov and everyone else, in both of their latest polls nowSean_F said:
YouGov is something of an outlier though.IanB2 said:
Hence the LibDems inching back into double figuresEl_Capitano said:
YouGov's Chris Curtis tweeting that Labour is down 7% among Remainers (on 2017), only 3% among Leavers... and they had twice as many Remainers to begin with.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn's equivocation strategy can't hold and we're starting to see that.0 -
It expect a pretty big number would switch without the backstop. And I don't buy the EUs reasons for insisting on it. But I also think if they were going to break they'd have done it by now and they are prepared to see no deal rather than appear weaker.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
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Boris isn’t a hard Leaver. He always wanted a Canada style FTA like Davis.Stereotomy said:
For at least some of the hard Leavers (*coughBoris*) it's more about their own political careers than anything else. Being able to scream "betrayal" is potentially advantageous for themBig_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children0 -
Realistically what it will be is a coalition formed of groups who each actually just want one of the options. Nobody wants a referendum for its own sake- as is true for pretty much every referendum. Pretending otherwise would look ludicrous.kle4 said:
If it's him then it's conservatives for remain, rather than for a referendum. May really needs at least the pretence that a referendum is not desired just as a route to remain.0 -
On what planet is that not a hard Brexit?AmpfieldAndy said:
Boris isn’t a hard Leaver. He always wanted a Canada style FTA like Davis.Stereotomy said:
For at least some of the hard Leavers (*coughBoris*) it's more about their own political careers than anything else. Being able to scream "betrayal" is potentially advantageous for themBig_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children0 -
Garbage. The backstop is the best thing about the WA!Philip_Thompson said:
My only issue is the backstop same as May's was in the summer of last year.Anazina said:
Bollocks. The ERGers and your ultra-europhobic ilk would have found a problem somewhere.Philip_Thompson said:
Because she signed a backstop she spent 12 months insisting no PM could sign.Richard_Nabavi said:
In retrospect it should always have been obvious that that would be the case.IanB2 said:That's the bizarre thing. In that last respect, May got a deal that was better than many were expecting. Yet it was instantly trashed by much of her own party.
Had she honoured her own word none of this would be a problem.
As someone beautifully put it, if one turned the Tory Right's water into wine they'd complain about the vintage.
I'm not a Europhobe I nearly voted Remain but the backstop is an abomination.0 -
They voted against implementing the result of the referendum.David_Evershed said:
But was that second referendum proposal after the first one had already been implemented.SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
No one suggests you can't reverse a referendum after it has been implemented as indeed the 2016 referendum is to reverse what was confirmed by the 1975 referendum.
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Planet unicorn.Stereotomy said:
On what planet is that not a hard Brexit?AmpfieldAndy said:
Boris isn’t a hard Leaver. He always wanted a Canada style FTA like Davis.Stereotomy said:
For at least some of the hard Leavers (*coughBoris*) it's more about their own political careers than anything else. Being able to scream "betrayal" is potentially advantageous for themBig_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children0 -
Caulfield is thick as pig shit. She is an embarrassment.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Apart from TM deal, I agreeBenpointer said:
And I can think of nothing better!AmpfieldAndy said:
I can think of nothing worseGallowgate said:
Bring on Remain!AmpfieldAndy said:
Let’s hope so.DavidL said:I don't know if I am just worn down by this chaos but I seriously wonder if we are in the last week of May's Premiership in anything other than a caretaker capacity. She has run out of road and if her deal is rejected by 150+ tomorrow, which seems all too likely, she surely has to go.
Just listened to Marie Caulfield of ERG, they are economic illiterates and a serious threat to all our futures
They have to be stopped0 -
If it clearly just a remainer ploy May might not be able to back it. There is a difference between we must ask the people and we must remain so let's get the people to do that.Stereotomy said:
Realistically what it will be is a coalition formed of groups who each actually just want one of the options. Nobody wants a referendum for its own sake- as is true for pretty much every referendum. Pretending otherwise would look ludicrous.kle4 said:
If it's him then it's conservatives for remain, rather than for a referendum. May really needs at least the pretence that a referendum is not desired just as a route to remain.
As for looking ludicrous that's most of the people's vote campaign. Since they pretend it's about a final say but only because they think minds have changed.
0 -
Especially bad news for Labour in trying to hold those seats it won in 2017?El_Capitano said:
YouGov's Chris Curtis tweeting that Labour is down 7% among Remainers (on 2017), only 3% among Leavers... and they had twice as many Remainers to begin with.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn's equivocation strategy can't hold and we're starting to see that.0 -
The idea that a FTA is a hard Brexit is simply asinine. No deal is a hard Brexit.Stereotomy said:
On what planet is that not a hard Brexit?AmpfieldAndy said:
Boris isn’t a hard Leaver. He always wanted a Canada style FTA like Davis.Stereotomy said:
For at least some of the hard Leavers (*coughBoris*) it's more about their own political careers than anything else. Being able to scream "betrayal" is potentially advantageous for themBig_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children0 -
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.0 -
Pretty shameless to go around claiming parliament's acceptance of the devolution referendums in your favour when she didn't support it herself, eh?SouthamObserver said:
They voted against implementing the result of the referendum.David_Evershed said:
But was that second referendum proposal after the first one had already been implemented.SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
No one suggests you can't reverse a referendum after it has been implemented as indeed the 2016 referendum is to reverse what was confirmed by the 1975 referendum.0 -
Remember there is nothing stopping us revoking then reinvoking Article 50. The ‘no mischief’ clause was not part of the official ruling.0
-
I think that quite a lot would switch, but (judging by Peter Bone's article on Con Home) quite a few would not. The complaints would centre on agreeing to make payments to the EU, fishing rights, not scrapping the jurisdiction of the ECJ overnight, and simply that any deal agreed to by the EU must be bad for us.kle4 said:
It expect a pretty big number would switch without the backstop. And I don't buy the EUs reasons for insisting on it. But I also think if they were going to break they'd have done it by now and they are prepared to see no deal rather than appear weaker.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children0 -
But that was not the point I was responding to. The Tories campaigning for a second referendum in 2005 is in no way comparable because the assembly had already been put in place by then. Like I say if you want to campaign for a second Brexit referendum once we have actually left then that is perfectly legitimate. But first we have to leave.IanB2 said:
If you check the twitter thread you'll see that a number of leading Tories voted against establishing both the Scottish Parliament and Welsh assembly even after these had been endorsed by referendum.Richard_Tyndall said:
Because it is not the same situation. In the case of the Welsh Assembly the original result of the referendum had been enacted and the assembly had been set up in 1999. What is now being proposed is to have a second referendum before the first has even been enacted.Anazina said:
Yes, the Welsh referendum example completely blows a hole in the government's 'undemocratic to have a second referendum' argument. To be honest, I'm surprised we hadn't thought of this one before now!!SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
Now I am very happy for you to have another referendum on rejoining the EU in, say, 9 or 10 years which would be exactly the same as what the Tories campaigned for in 2005.0 -
Indeed.IanB2 said:
If you check the twitter thread you'll see that a number of leading Tories voted against establishing both the Scottish Parliament and Welsh assembly even after these had been endorsed by referendum.Richard_Tyndall said:
Because it is not the same situation. In the case of the Welsh Assembly the original result of the referendum had been enacted and the assembly had been set up in 1999. What is now being proposed is to have a second referendum before the first has even been enacted.Anazina said:
Yes, the Welsh referendum example completely blows a hole in the government's 'undemocratic to have a second referendum' argument. To be honest, I'm surprised we hadn't thought of this one before now!!SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
Now I am very happy for you to have another referendum on rejoining the EU in, say, 9 or 10 years which would be exactly the same as what the Tories campaigned for in 2005.0 -
When you open the box, the cat turned out to be dead all along.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Presumably the Tories didn't expect her to win.Anazina said:
Caulfield is thick as pig shit. She is an embarrassment.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Apart from TM deal, I agreeBenpointer said:
And I can think of nothing better!AmpfieldAndy said:
I can think of nothing worseGallowgate said:
Bring on Remain!AmpfieldAndy said:
Let’s hope so.DavidL said:I don't know if I am just worn down by this chaos but I seriously wonder if we are in the last week of May's Premiership in anything other than a caretaker capacity. She has run out of road and if her deal is rejected by 150+ tomorrow, which seems all too likely, she surely has to go.
Just listened to Marie Caulfield of ERG, they are economic illiterates and a serious threat to all our futures
They have to be stopped0 -
Yes, no need to be burning wood in an urban environment. I'd hope this is rolled out council by council, and common sense prevails in more rural areas.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
In the home counties, it would be the ruination of the glamping sector
0 -
May. Wales. Oh dear.0
-
What happened to the clean air act? I thought wood fires in London were already banned.Anorak said:
Yes, no need to be burning wood in an urban environment. I'd hope this is rolled out by council by council and common sense prevails in more rural areas.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
In the home counties, it would be the ruination of the glamping sector0 -
Given that the terms we have now are better than those we could return on, that would be dumb.Richard_Tyndall said:
But that was not the point I was responding to. The Tories campaigning for a second referendum in 2005 is in no way comparable because the assembly had already been put in place by then. Like I say if you want to campaign for a second Brexit referendum once we have actually left then that is perfectly legitimate. But first we have to leave.IanB2 said:
If you check the twitter thread you'll see that a number of leading Tories voted against establishing both the Scottish Parliament and Welsh assembly even after these had been endorsed by referendum.Richard_Tyndall said:
Because it is not the same situation. In the case of the Welsh Assembly the original result of the referendum had been enacted and the assembly had been set up in 1999. What is now being proposed is to have a second referendum before the first has even been enacted.Anazina said:
Yes, the Welsh referendum example completely blows a hole in the government's 'undemocratic to have a second referendum' argument. To be honest, I'm surprised we hadn't thought of this one before now!!SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
Now I am very happy for you to have another referendum on rejoining the EU in, say, 9 or 10 years which would be exactly the same as what the Tories campaigned for in 2005.0 -
The U.K. is responsible for c 2% of world carbon dioxide emissions. Most of that 38% you are concerned about comes from wet logs, and coal, not kiln dried which most users burn. I see you are unconcerned though about breathing air polluted by German car manufacturers lying about diesel emissions.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
0 -
rottenborough said:
As Big_G keeps saying, perhaps May is more popular out in the country than the commentators give credit for?kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
One of the very few good things about this Brexit chaos is that the government is incapable of doing anything else. As almost all governments are hyperactive – faffing around with legislation for no good reason and causing unintended consequences for businesses, workers and families – its preoccupation with something else is a major selling point.0 -
DUP just said it isn't switching to support the deal0
-
Nothing quite like a real open fire , you should know that living in north wales , that background smell of coal in the air that reminds you its winter again. Most of our air pollution blows over from Europe anyway, not much we can do about thatBig_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
0 -
But it would start the two year clock again.....Gallowgate said:Remember there is nothing stopping us revoking then reinvoking Article 50. The ‘no mischief’ clause was not part of the official ruling.
0 -
Indeed they are major polluters. As you say, the OP is completely ignorant about this.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.0 -
I am concerned about anything that makes or contributes to toxic air quality for my grand childrenAmpfieldAndy said:
The U.K. is responsible for c 2% of world carbon dioxide emissions. Most of that 38% you are concerned about comes from wet logs, and coal, not kiln dried which most users burn. I see you are concerned though about breathing air polluted by German car manufacturers lying about diesel emissions.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.0 -
Well if we wanted to pretend we’re leaving indefinitely...MarqueeMark said:
But it would start the two year clock again.....Gallowgate said:Remember there is nothing stopping us revoking then reinvoking Article 50. The ‘no mischief’ clause was not part of the official ruling.
0 -
Also, the YG poll is older (Jan 6-7) than the two latest polls showing respectively level pegging and a Labour lead.Sean_F said:
YouGov is something of an outlier though, as the rest have the two parties at level-pegging.IanB2 said:
Hence the LibDems inching back into double figuresEl_Capitano said:
YouGov's Chris Curtis tweeting that Labour is down 7% among Remainers (on 2017), only 3% among Leavers... and they had twice as many Remainers to begin with.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn's equivocation strategy can't hold and we're starting to see that.
The difference between YouGov and Survation is that the former puts Labour leavers at 20-25%, the latter has them at 30-35%.
I don't honestly think that any of us can say definitely that anything is happening in party preference. Yet.0 -
London is not the only urban area in the UK! I'd ban them in any settlement above 50k people - although that number has no basis in any science or calculation whatsoever.IanB2 said:
What happened to the clean air act? I thought wood fires in London were already banned.Anorak said:
Yes, no need to be burning wood in an urban environment. I'd hope this is rolled out by council by council and common sense prevails in more rural areas.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
In the home counties, it would be the ruination of the glamping sector0 -
Gove isn't banning burners. He is introducing rules that mean only the more efficiently burning ones can be sold from 2022.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
Wet wood may be banned from sale (there is a consultation). So only seasoned can be sold. Not sure why anyone knows what they are doing with a fire would be burning wet wood anyway.0 -
NickPalmer said:
Also, the YG poll is older (Jan 6-7) than the two latest polls showing respectively level pegging and a Labour lead.Sean_F said:
YouGov is something of an outlier though, as the rest have the two parties at level-pegging.IanB2 said:
Hence the LibDems inching back into double figuresEl_Capitano said:
YouGov's Chris Curtis tweeting that Labour is down 7% among Remainers (on 2017), only 3% among Leavers... and they had twice as many Remainers to begin with.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn's equivocation strategy can't hold and we're starting to see that.
The difference between YouGov and Survation is that the former puts Labour leavers at 20-25%, the latter has them at 30-35%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
I don't honestly think that any of us can say definitely that anything is happening in party preference. Yet.0 -
Which would be very helpful. In the circumstances.MarqueeMark said:
But it would start the two year clock again.....Gallowgate said:Remember there is nothing stopping us revoking then reinvoking Article 50. The ‘no mischief’ clause was not part of the official ruling.
0 -
What I'm saying is that it won't be just a remainer ploy because it will also be a May's Deal ploy. Her deal is dead, but it being voted for in a referendum would probably be sufficient defribulation to bring it back to lifekle4 said:
If it clearly just a remainer ploy May might not be able to back it. There is a difference between we must ask the people and we must remain so let's get the people to do that.Stereotomy said:
Realistically what it will be is a coalition formed of groups who each actually just want one of the options. Nobody wants a referendum for its own sake- as is true for pretty much every referendum. Pretending otherwise would look ludicrous.kle4 said:
If it's him then it's conservatives for remain, rather than for a referendum. May really needs at least the pretence that a referendum is not desired just as a route to remain.
As for looking ludicrous that's most of the people's vote campaign. Since they pretend it's about a final say but only because they think minds have changed.0 -
Quite an interesting set of what-ifs from Wednesday...
https://consoc.org.uk/publications/blog-by-andrew-kennon-the-house-of-commons-and-the-brexit-deal/0 -
Does that mean we could keep arguing about Brexit FOREVER?Gallowgate said:
Well if we wanted to pretend we’re leaving indefinitely...MarqueeMark said:
But it would start the two year clock again.....Gallowgate said:Remember there is nothing stopping us revoking then reinvoking Article 50. The ‘no mischief’ clause was not part of the official ruling.
Yay!0 -
Has Big G previously spoken in support of German car manufacturers lying or is this just a particularly bizarre attempt at whataboutery?AmpfieldAndy said:
The U.K. is responsible for c 2% of world carbon dioxide emissions. Most of that 38% you are concerned about comes from wet logs, and coal, not kiln dried which most users burn. I see you are unconcerned though about breathing air polluted by German car manufacturers lying about diesel emissions.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.0 -
Against the prevailing wind? Hmm.kjohnw said:
Most of our air pollution blows over from Europe anyway, not much we can do about thatBig_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.0 -
It's the only one Khan has any responsibility for, and downthread it is claimed he was asking for the powers.Anorak said:
London is not the only urban area in the UK! I'd ban them in any settlement above 50k people - although that number has no basis in any science or calculation whatsoever.IanB2 said:
What happened to the clean air act? I thought wood fires in London were already banned.Anorak said:
Yes, no need to be burning wood in an urban environment. I'd hope this is rolled out by council by council and common sense prevails in more rural areas.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
In the home counties, it would be the ruination of the glamping sector0 -
Which is very reasonable but begs the question why you are not more concerned about Gove’s misguided priorities. Primacy of consumer interests should be paramount.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am concerned about anything that makes or contributes to toxic air quality for my grand childrenAmpfieldAndy said:
The U.K. is responsible for c 2% of world carbon dioxide emissions. Most of that 38% you are concerned about comes from wet logs, and coal, not kiln dried which most users burn. I see you are concerned though about breathing air polluted by German car manufacturers lying about diesel emissions.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.0 -
For a new PM. And a new set of civil servants.....IanB2 said:
Which would be very helpful. In the circumstances.MarqueeMark said:
But it would start the two year clock again.....Gallowgate said:Remember there is nothing stopping us revoking then reinvoking Article 50. The ‘no mischief’ clause was not part of the official ruling.
0 -
Is there some way of making this post a stickie? Otherwise we will enter into Charlie Falconer resignation territory vis a vis endless notices pointing out the same thing.SouthamObserver said:
They voted against implementing the result of the referendum.David_Evershed said:
But was that second referendum proposal after the first one had already been implemented.SouthamObserver said:Shameless, mendacious and hypocritical. God bless the Buccaneering Brexiteers and our Prime Minister ...
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1084607886095982592?s=21
No one suggests you can't reverse a referendum after it has been implemented as indeed the 2016 referendum is to reverse what was confirmed by the 1975 referendum.0 -
0
-
Ah. Fair enough, missed that.IanB2 said:
It's the only one Khan has any responsibility for, and downthread it is claimed he was asking for the powers.Anorak said:
London is not the only urban area in the UK! I'd ban them in any settlement above 50k people - although that number has no basis in any science or calculation whatsoever.IanB2 said:
What happened to the clean air act? I thought wood fires in London were already banned.0 -
Because wood burners are not bought by people who know about fire. They are lifestyle items in the main.rottenborough said:
Gove isn't banning burners. He is introducing rules that mean only the more efficiently burning ones can be sold from 2022.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
Wet wood may be banned from sale (there is a consultation). So only seasoned can be sold. Not sure why anyone knows what they are doing with a fire would be burning wet wood anyway.0 -
Where a hard Brexit is no deal.Stereotomy said:
On what planet is that not a hard Brexit?AmpfieldAndy said:
Boris isn’t a hard Leaver. He always wanted a Canada style FTA like Davis.Stereotomy said:
For at least some of the hard Leavers (*coughBoris*) it's more about their own political careers than anything else. Being able to scream "betrayal" is potentially advantageous for themBig_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children0 -
The hypocrite files ...
https://twitter.com/tpgcolson/status/1084782682419183618?s=210 -
On a South-westerly in Devon, the nearest source of pollution would be NE Brazil.....Anorak said:
Against the prevailing wind? Hmm.kjohnw said:
Most of our air pollution blows over from Europe anyway, not much we can do about thatBig_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG want TM to go back to Brussels and remove the backstop. However, that is a front for their actual position of wanting us to crash out, so even if she did get more change, they would come up with another reason against the deal. They are incredibly naive or just blind to the fact they represent less than 15% of the HOC and virtually nil in the HOL and no deal will be stoppedAmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is excellent in his current role and is addressing very serious issues affecting air quality which is especially dangerous to all our children and grand children
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
(That said, Atlantic shipping burning bunker fuel doesn't half make some horrible-looking pollution.)0 -
Gove is addressing a major source of particulates that is not currently being dealt with.AmpfieldAndy said:
Which is very reasonable but begs the question why you are not more concerned about Gove’s misguided priorities. Primacy of consumer interests should be paramount.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am concerned about anything that makes or contributes to toxic air quality for my grand childrenAmpfieldAndy said:
The U.K. is responsible for c 2% of world carbon dioxide emissions. Most of that 38% you are concerned about comes from wet logs, and coal, not kiln dried which most users burn. I see you are concerned though about breathing air polluted by German car manufacturers lying about diesel emissions.Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you obviously do not know that wood burners and fires account for upto 38% of damaging particulate matter in the UK. Sadiq Khan and other councils have already asked for powers to curtail them due to their effect on air quality and the unseen damage they contribute toAmpfieldAndy said:
If that is true, it’s intellectually lazy because securing the backstop has been the central focus of the EU negotiations for the last 2 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:AmpfieldAndy said:Grieve and Boles are getting plenty of air time on their plans but not a word from the ERG about what they’ll do when May loses her deal. I wonder if they have given it any thought. Sadly, I suspect the answer is probably not given how they were too idle to come up with an alternative plan at any stage during the last 2 years.
Gove seems to have given up on Brexit too and is now preoccupied with pedantry - banning the sale of coal and word for domestic heating. It’s pathetic.
Gove is an idiot for trying to ban wood burners. German car manufacturers can lie about their diesel emissions with impunity and freely pollute the atmosphere but wood burners which arm no one are to be banned. It’s fatuous. Still, I suppose it will provide a boost to his mates benefitting from the ROC’s in renewables projects.
The one you're referring to is already being addressed by taxation on polluting cars, by government policy to phase out IC engines in cars, by VW being fined a bazillion pounds, and by processes and improved testing being put in place to make sure it can't happen again.0 -
More to the point, anyone who pays any attention to individual polls amid this utter chaos is a madman.NickPalmer said:
Also, the YG poll is older (Jan 6-7) than the two latest polls showing respectively level pegging and a Labour lead.Sean_F said:
YouGov is something of an outlier though, as the rest have the two parties at level-pegging.IanB2 said:
Hence the LibDems inching back into double figuresEl_Capitano said:
YouGov's Chris Curtis tweeting that Labour is down 7% among Remainers (on 2017), only 3% among Leavers... and they had twice as many Remainers to begin with.kle4 said:
Not possible. Sorry, just not possible. Corbyn could be the evil ghost of Karl Marx, how could this gov hold it's level like that?TheScreamingEagles said:
Corbyn's equivocation strategy can't hold and we're starting to see that.
The difference between YouGov and Survation is that the former puts Labour leavers at 20-25%, the latter has them at 30-35%.
I don't honestly think that any of us can say definitely that anything is happening in party preference. Yet.0 -
https://youtu.be/yJxCdh1Ps48SouthamObserver said:The hypocrite files ...
https://twitter.com/tpgcolson/status/1084782682419183618?s=210 -
To be fair they voted against the referendum. Many of those wanting no Brexit now voted for the referendum.Alistair said:
However, May (along with the Brexit crew et al.) voted against the Scottish Parliament after it had be passed by referendum with a 74% yes vote. That is rank hypocrisy of the worst sort now.Philip_Thompson said:
I agree with that. The 2005 policy to scrap the assembly is not hypocritical and entirely in keeping with a campaign to rejoin the EU after we have left.0
