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A deal by the Tories with ukip would be a disaster for the Tories. ukip is a completely off-the-wall inconsistent outfit full of Tory rejects.perdix said:Mick_Pork said:Tim Wigmore @timwig 4m
Why a pact with the Tories would be a disaster for Ukip - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukipwatch/100258571/a-pact-with-the-conservatives-doesnt-make-sense-for-ukip/ … >Another great Ukip post from @robfordmancs and @GoodwinMJ
Trouble began only days later, when it was revealed Pearson had made an offer to David Cameron that Ukip candidates would step down at the 2010 election in return for a referendum on Britain’s relationship with Europe. As Pearson told his new party, unseating Eurosceptic Tories was "shooting our cause in the knee, and country in the heart". Cameron never replied, but the move caused serious conflict inside Ukip. Many in the grassroots were furious; they wanted nothing to do with the establishment and argued an alliance would wreck their goal of breaking up the party system. Appealing across party lines made no sense if they were in cahoots with the established politicians. The simmering tension soon spiralled into open rebellion, as in the South West constituency of Wells where local Ukippers simply refused the order to stand down. They went on to win 3.1 per cent, while the Tories lost the seat by 1.5 per cent.
Tory rejects who are polling at easily far more than the sub 5% (and back to their 2010 levels) that Cammie himself said the kippers need to be for him to have a chance. That's right now, before the May EU elections.
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James Cook @BBCJamesCook 2 mins
David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyref0 -
Agree - he does these big set piece things well.JackW said:Simply an excellent speech by the PM.
I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....
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The Govt took the Royal Mail, which was working well and generating revenue for the treasury /taxpayer, and sold it for billions less than it was worth. In what sense is this a good thing?
Gordon Brown took the UK's gold reserves, even though the price was at the lowest in a millenium and the reserve was working well to underpin the UK's credit, and sold it for 10 billion pounds less than it would have been worth ultimately. Just because he could
In what sense is that a good thing?
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Farage ruling out a pact with the Tories is like me ruling out going on a date with Ryan Gosling. Sure, it's probably accurate but neither of us were ever going to be asked in the first place.isam said:No chance of an alliance though, Farage expressly ruled it out on the show last night
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Amusing and quite possibly to do with this as well.Theuniondivvie said:James Cook @BBCJamesCook 2 mins
David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyrefTim Montgomerie @TimMontgomerie Feb 3
Fop chicken is still on the menu.
From @jameskirkup's evening email: "It has now been 230 days since David Cameron gave a full press conference in the UK". Not good.
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If a Union were to call a strike with only the support of 51% of a 30% turnout, without being confident that a majority of the other 70% would also support the action, then they would be leading their members to defeat.Anorak said:
I don't think that 50% should be required, although 51% of a 30% vote turnout is taking the p*ss. There must be a middle ground. Say a simple majority of the vote plus a condition that the majority must be more than 40% of all members.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Stopper, are you referring to the suggestion that 50% of all members must vote for a strike, or the proposal that certain workers not presently prevented from striking (ie Tube workers) should be?
Strike action by 15% of a workforce is not going to be terribly effective. I expect it's well below the holiday rate during school holidays in many workplaces.
So why bother putting a legal limit in place? If the strike really isn't supported by the union membership it isn't going to succeed anyway. On the other hand, if there's a genuine feeling of discontent in a workplace, and you place a bureaucratic hurdle in the way of official action because some people were busy enough to forget to vote, then you risk that discontent breaking out in unofficial strike action, probably lead by militants who aren't in the Union bureaucracy, and it becomes a lot harder to negotiate with and contain.0 -
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Mr. Divvie, bit class war of you.0
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Well ok, but if you were on tv and an interviewer asked you I guess you would answer?Neil said:
Farage ruling out a pact with the Tories is like me ruling out going on a date with Ryan Gosling. Sure, it's probably accurate but neither of us were ever going to be asked in the first place.isam said:No chance of an alliance though, Farage expressly ruled it out on the show last night
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Text of Cameron's speech:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-importance-of-scotland-to-the-uk-david-camerons-speech0 -
Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.0
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nonsense on stilts, to quote Jim Sillars, from that article.Mick_Pork said:
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It's all about priorities, Divvie.Theuniondivvie said:James Cook @BBCJamesCook 2 mins
David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyref
Wet reality trumps Independence fantasy.
The media know which is the bigger story.
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What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.JackW said:
I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.MarqueeMark said:
Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.CarlottaVance said:A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......
Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.
Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.
Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
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I'd hold my phone number up on a board just in case.isam said:
Well ok, but if you were on tv and an interviewer asked you I guess you would answer?Neil said:
Farage ruling out a pact with the Tories is like me ruling out going on a date with Ryan Gosling. Sure, it's probably accurate but neither of us were ever going to be asked in the first place.isam said:No chance of an alliance though, Farage expressly ruled it out on the show last night
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It's blustery in England at the moment.CarlottaVance said:
Agree - he does these big set piece things well.JackW said:Simply an excellent speech by the PM.
I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....
Brian Moore @brianmoore666 9 mins
Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.
Bonnie Greer @Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.
Jon Tonge @JonTonge 15 mins
How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron
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Then why are Scottish Labour voters less pro-Union than coalition ones? If the Scots vote for independence it will be Labour voters who swing it. Don't you think Miliband should contribute?Jonathan said:
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When he does you can then praise him to the skies and won't that be entertaining.CarlottaVance said:
Then why are Scottish Labour voters less pro-Union than coalition ones? If the Scots vote for independence it will be Labour voters who swing it. Don't you think Miliband should contribute?Jonathan said:
LOL0 -
The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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Mr. Neil, indeed, and how did that come about? Could it be because of the lopsided and stupid devolution Labour created in order to try and give itself a permanent fiefdom?0
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@Morris_Dancer
It came about because of democracy. Damn Labour and their democratic ways, someone should do something about them.0 -
Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.Neil said:
The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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Ah - anecdotes.Theuniondivvie said:
It's blustery in England at the moment.CarlottaVance said:
Agree - he does these big set piece things well.JackW said:Simply an excellent speech by the PM.
I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....
Brian Moore @brianmoore666 9 mins
Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.
Bonnie Greer @Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.
Jon Tonge @JonTonge 15 mins
How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron0 -
More examples that Cameron's Twitter adage was correct.Theuniondivvie said:
It's blustery in England at the moment.CarlottaVance said:
Agree - he does these big set piece things well.JackW said:Simply an excellent speech by the PM.
I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....
Brian Moore @brianmoore666 9 mins
Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.
Bonnie Greer @Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.
Jon Tonge @JonTonge 15 mins
How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron0 -
Mr. Neil, democracy? To ask Wales and Scotland about devolution, but ignore England?
Funny how only the bits of Britain Labour thought they could be permanently in control got asked.
And don't try and reply with that limp-wristed regional assembly bullshit. If Scotland has a Parliament then it is only just that England has one (or, at the very least, the opportunity to vote aye or nay for one).0 -
Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.TheWatcher said:
Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.Neil said:
The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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Labour must find a way of working with Cameron to save the Union
The Labour Party and Labour supporters must find a way to accommodate Cameron’s unfortunate but necessary need to be involved in the debate about the future of Scotland and the union as a whole. The continued snark to the contrary only serves to help push Scotland towards the exit door. Whilst I sincerely believe that there are many Tories who would happily see Scotland leave the UK, I’m certain Cameron isn’t one of them. He’ll want to fight to save his country as many of us wish to save ours.
http://labourlist.org/2014/02/labour-must-find-a-way-of-working-with-cameron-to-save-the-union/0 -
Not quite as entertaining as your increasingly desperate attempts to avoid Salmond's "nonsense on stilts" currency plan.....Mick_Pork said:
When he does you can then praise him to the skies and won't that be entertaining.CarlottaVance said:
Then why are Scottish Labour voters less pro-Union than coalition ones? If the Scots vote for independence it will be Labour voters who swing it. Don't you think Miliband should contribute?Jonathan said:
LOL
LOL indeed.....
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Do you understand how a share issue works ?Wulfrun_Phil said:
What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.JackW said:
I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.MarqueeMark said:
Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.CarlottaVance said:A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......
Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.
Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.
Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
A failure to place the shares to market means the price is too high. Thus the market price will be lower in the immediate future.
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Cameron:
You don’t need a customs check when you travel over the border, you don’t have to get out your passport out at Carlisle, you don’t have to deal with totally different tax systems and regulations when you trade and you don’t have to trade in different currencies.
He's planning to join Schengen and the Euro, it's just a matter of time...0 -
@Morris_Dancer
Democracy affords you the opportunity to vote for a party offering a referendum on English devolution or even independence. Your problem seems to be with your fellow English people who simply dont seem to care as much as you about this.0 -
NP on sky0
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I though it brave of Cameron to make a speech in the Cybernats backyard, some tartan tories are now so tory they've taken live in the south of England . :-)TGOHF said:Given that Cameron's speech is directed at rUK - where do you suggest he gives the speech - Albania ?
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Ha Ha, Salmonds preferred option has always been Devomax. How many years do you think he'd wait before taking another bold, brave step. 10? 20? 50?Neil said:
Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.TheWatcher said:
Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.Neil said:
The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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My newly minted adage is that anyone who doesn't like what tweets say invariably dredges up Cameron's twitweetwat adage.JosiasJessop said:
More examples that Cameron's Twitter adage was correct.Theuniondivvie said:
It's blustery in England at the moment.CarlottaVance said:
Agree - he does these big set piece things well.JackW said:Simply an excellent speech by the PM.
I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....
Brian Moore @brianmoore666 9 mins
Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.
Bonnie Greer @Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.
Jon Tonge @JonTonge 15 mins
How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron
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Do English voters want one ? .... the evidence is thin.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Neil, democracy? To ask Wales and Scotland about devolution, but ignore England?
Funny how only the bits of Britain Labour thought they could be permanently in control got asked.
And don't try and reply with that limp-wristed regional assembly bullshit. If Scotland has a Parliament then it is only just that England has one (or, at the very least, the opportunity to vote aye or nay for one).
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I turned over and all they said was "A British citizen has been suspected of carrying out a suicide bombing in Syria"Verulamius said:NP on sky
Say it isn't so Nick!0 -
Ah! That's why the first question was about Somerset!Alanbrooke said:
I though it brave of Cameron to make a speech in the Cybernats backyard, some tartan tories are now so tory they've taken live in the south of England . :-)TGOHF said:Given that Cameron's speech is directed at rUK - where do you suggest he gives the speech - Albania ?
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I'm sure they are doing their best to shut him up and keep him out of Scotland but you cant expect them to literally tie him up until the referendum is over.CarlottaVance said:Labour must find a way of working with Cameron to save the Union
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If the PM of the United Kingdom making a speech about preserving the United Kingdom really is going to make it more likely that it will break-up, then it is totally buggered anyway and we might as well just get on with it.
But if that is the case, let's not have anyone pretend that the referendum campaign is in any way a rational debate about pros and cons. It's based on prejudice and nothing more.
How else can claims that a Tory with an English voice giving an opinion on the break-up of the country he leads and of which he is a citizen is a huge help to the Yes side be viewed?0 -
Thanks Carlotta I read the PM's speech with interest.
It had everything in it apart from one thing. An apology.
Scotland has, down the centuries, been intermittently f8cked over by England. The genuine venom we get from the SNP posters on here shows that there is a real, visceral hatred for a certain type of Englishman which I can only imagine is borne of historical grievances.
Cameron could have mentioned this unfortunate and sad history of the two countries, and England's culpability in causing some of the misery.
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I am humbled by your lack of cynicismPulpstar said:
Of all the current very front benchers I'd say Ed Miliband is the biggest believer in his own bollocks followed by George Osborne.Anorak said:
I think replacing "PR Dave" with "any politician since the dawn of time" would result in an equally true statement. Unless you actually believe everything Mr Salmond feeds you?!Theuniondivvie said:
You mean PR Dave might not MEAN what he's saying? I've just rushed my faith in humanity to Casualty.Anorak said:
What makes you think that, deep down, he actually wants to thwart the Nats?Pulpstar said:Surely a man with the name of David William Donald Cameron should make his speech regarding Scotland IN Scotland, "No" might be a long way ahead in the polls but making the speech in London of all places ?!
It just gives off the impression that the Gov't is completely London-centric, should have given it in Lockerbie I reckon.
Balls and Salmond are both reassuringly dishonest - Cameron likes to spout crap too but he is a country before party man on the Scottish Referendum issue I think.
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Mr. Neil, the vote should've occurred in 1997. As for now, the Westminster politicians know that a devolved England would have the lion's share of money and power over just about everything except Foreign and Defence matters (and some areas of the Treasury). They don't want to lose that from Westminster.
Refusing to ask, let alone answer, the West Lothian Question has been a terrible failing of all the major parties, but the worst is Labour, for it was their selfish, cackhanded and utterly inept meddling which created the problem in the first place.
Their efforts to kill Scottish nationalism stone dead have proven as prophetic as John Reid's suggestion we could leave Helmand without a shot being fired.0 -
Labour List:Hugh said:
"That was a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Scottish Nationalist Party"CarlottaVance said:Text of Cameron's speech:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-importance-of-scotland-to-the-uk-david-camerons-speech
Yet many within the Labour movement find themselves in a strange position on Scottish Independence. Intellectually and emotionally they find themselves on the same side as a Tory PM whom they dislike intensely. That creates a tension between those two strongly held positions, and encourages snark whenever the PM has anything to say on the union. It causes many of us to say that Cameron should “butt out” of the debate, that his every intervention is counterproductive and that it’d be better if he never spoke or thought the word Scotland ever again.
Can you honestly imagine any other nation on earth where the leader of a country that was potentially about to break up would stay out of the debate? I know we British are considered polite – but this seems to be taking it to an extreme.
http://labourlist.org/2014/02/labour-must-find-a-way-of-working-with-cameron-to-save-the-union/0 -
Cluck, cluck.
Nick Robinson @bbcnickrobinson 21 mins
PM takes just 2 questions on major speech on Scotland cf @AlexSalmond who took well over a dozen @Number10press0 -
I bet he'll beat the 26 and a bit years it took the Irish Free State to complete its transformation into the Republic of Ireland.TheWatcher said:
Ha Ha, Salmonds preferred option has always been Devomax. How many years do you think he'd wait before taking another bold, brave step. 10? 20? 50?Neil said:
Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.TheWatcher said:
Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.Neil said:
The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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A turnover tax is not completely bonkers, but may need careful design, and abolition of corporation tax. It is potentially a way of getting companies like Starbucks and Amazon to pay to this country, in the way that WHSmiths and Costa coffee (Whitbread) do. Some careful thought could tap a source of income and level the playing field so as not to keep company profits off shore.
Ken Livingstone proposed the turnover tax at the NEC summit as a way of stopping "tax evasion and avoidance"Pulpstar said:
Turnover tax?Slackbladder said:
Another quandry for Carlotta. Keep spinning for her new economic guru Ed Balls or u-turn and decide he's a liability again today?Mick_Pork said:CCHQ Press Office @CCHQPress 22h
ANOTHER tax bombshell from Labour - Labour are biggest threat to the recovery, jobs & long term prosperity of Britain http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5425367/ed-balls-urged-to-slap-turnover-tax-on-business.html …
Of all the most idiotic stupid ideas possible...that one is up there. Effectively VAT but without the neutral-ness of it to businesses.
Lunatic idea from commie Ken.
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Today's Populus Lab 36 Con 33 LD 9 UKIP 15
Massive changes to Populus weightings make the results not comparable to previous Populus polls0 -
Wings over Scotland has very wet feathers.CarlottaVance said:
Ah! That's why the first question was about Somerset!Alanbrooke said:
I though it brave of Cameron to make a speech in the Cybernats backyard, some tartan tories are now so tory they've taken live in the south of England . :-)TGOHF said:Given that Cameron's speech is directed at rUK - where do you suggest he gives the speech - Albania ?
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I think Cameron's problem is that, although he's said to visit PB occasionally, he obviously has been a bit busy with other things so probably hasn't followed it every day. If he had, I'm sure that, like me, he'd have been persuaded to back Scottish independence by the posts of our resident Nats.0
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Typical Cameron speech full of project fear scaremongering about being bitter together.
Did I win the natbingo ?0 -
The only one that has left so far, left in a blaze of violence. That's a first step I'm sure you wouldn't recommend.Neil said:
Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.TheWatcher said:
Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.Neil said:
The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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Do you understand how a share issue works?JackW said:
Do you understand how a share issue works ?Wulfrun_Phil said:
What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.JackW said:
I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.MarqueeMark said:
Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.CarlottaVance said:A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......
Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.
Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.
Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
A failure to place the shares to market means the price is too high. Thus the market price will be lower in the immediate future.
By pricing the shares above what turns out to be the market value in an undersubscribed offer, you get above market value for the shares that are taken up, and at a later date market value for the shares that you are left with when you sell them later. So overall, you end up with more than the market value on average.
By pricing the offer below what turns out to be the market value in an oversubscribed offer, you get below market value for the lot. HM Government has had a lot of practice at that and they never seem to learn the lesson.
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@Morris_Dancer
As I said, your problem seems to be with the English who just dont seem very bothered by any of that.0 -
Cameron's olive branch to the Wings over Somerset branch of the cybernats ?Theuniondivvie said:James Cook @BBCJamesCook 2 mins
David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyref0 -
Worth remembering that Scotland pushed for more independence after Thatcher's awful government crapped all over it and treated it like a petri dish for bonkers Tory policy.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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Judging by that speech he hasn't just been persuaded, he's actively trying to make it happen.RichardNabavi said:I think Cameron's problem is that, although he's said to visit PB occasionally, he obviously has been a bit busy with other things so probably hasn't followed it every day. If he had, I'm sure that, like me, he'd have been persuaded to back Scottish independence by the posts of our resident Nats.
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Up to 366 (?) British citizens are fighting for the rebels in Syria according to the guy on Sky News (Shiraz Maher).
With todays suicide bombing and these two, I guess you can make that 363
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546269/Pictured-North-London-brothers-died-fighting-alongside-Al-Qaeda-extremists-Syria-hailed-martyrs.html
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Just because 15% backed the strike in that scenario does not mean that just 15% will be on strike. 30% of all tube members backed the strike, but 90%+ of union members complied with the result.OblitusSumMe said:Strike action by 15% of a workforce is not going to be terribly effective. I expect it's well below the holiday rate during school holidays in many workplaces.
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Only if it's in bold and they forget Cammie is on twitter too.Theuniondivvie said:
My newly minted adage is that anyone who doesn't like what tweets say invariably dredges up Cameron's twitweetwat adage.JosiasJessop said:
More examples that Cameron's Twitter adage was correct.Theuniondivvie said:
It's blustery in England at the moment.CarlottaVance said:
Agree - he does these big set piece things well.JackW said:Simply an excellent speech by the PM.
I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....
Brian Moore @brianmoore666 9 mins
Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.
Bonnie Greer @Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.
Jon Tonge @JonTonge 15 mins
How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron
There's certainly a great deal of amusing shrieking coming from the PB tories. Let's hope they keep it up as they are about as likely to persuade the scottish public as Cammie is yet they never seem to notice.0 -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_ArmyAlanbrooke said:
The only one that has left so far, left in a blaze of violence. That's a first step I'm sure you wouldn't recommend.Neil said:
Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.TheWatcher said:
Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.Neil said:
The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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New better-off-with-UKIP issue:
"...the new E10 fuel being introduced in Britain to comply with the EU’s renewable energy directive cuts the mileage per gallon that drivers will get from their cars. … fuel economy fell by as much as 10 per cent on vehicles using E10."
http://www.ukip.org/newsroom/news/1142-new-eu-petrol-will-see-the-costs-of-motoring-soar-costing-british-drivers-billions0 -
"With the health records it will be really helpful for health researchers to look at the vast aggregates of data that will be made available."
Very true, but for insurance companies, credit reference agencies, the police and no doubt a whole multitude of other government departments (local and national) that will be allowed access it is the details of the individual that they will be interested in. The fact that the police are to be allowed access surely gives the lie to the claim that the data will be subject to "pseudonymisation"".
As long as the data includes gender, date of birth and post code they might just as well include the full name, address and national insurance number. Data aggregation techniques will enable any competent agency or company to match the health records to individuals in probably 90% of cases.
Of course, HMG can make it a specific criminal offence to misuse the health data but that won't stop it happening any more than it has stopped bent employees misusing data from the Police National Computer.
I am very surprised that Doctors are not up in arms about this because it destroys the whole basis of patient confidentiality that they supposedly hold so dear.0 -
I partially agree with you here - the only regional assembly referendum that Labour held was for a regional assembly in the North-East. Not coincidentally, Labour took 43.6% of the vote in the North-East at the 2010 GE - higher even then they managed in Scotland.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Neil, democracy? To ask Wales and Scotland about devolution, but ignore England?
Funny how only the bits of Britain Labour thought they could be permanently in control got asked.
And don't try and reply with that limp-wristed regional assembly bullshit. If Scotland has a Parliament then it is only just that England has one (or, at the very least, the opportunity to vote aye or nay for one).
Labour had a half-arsed plan for devolution that involved only devolving power to places where they believed Labour politicians would be in charge. It's been a shock to them to see a Tory mayor in London and a Nationalist First Minister in Edinburgh. I fear this won't mean that they see a possibility of devolution to southern England as a way of reviving their own electoral fortunes there, but simply that its best for them to centralise power in Whitehall.
That said, a Parliament for England would be as clear a way of telling the Welsh and the Northern Irish to feck off after the Scots as any I could think of. If you want to make a balanced federation of the UK then you have to break England down into smaller constituent parts which have strong regional identities - Yoprkshire, Wessex, Mercia, etc.0 -
Exactly correct SO. I have no doubt that Cameron is honest in what he says and believes about Scotland and the union, just as I'm sure Miliband or any labour politican does.SouthamObserver said:If the PM of the United Kingdom making a speech about preserving the United Kingdom really is going to make it more likely that it will break-up, then it is totally buggered anyway and we might as well just get on with it.
But if that is the case, let's not have anyone pretend that the referendum campaign is in any way a rational debate about pros and cons. It's based on prejudice and nothing more.
How else can claims that a Tory with an English voice giving an opinion on the break-up of the country he leads and of which he is a citizen is a huge help to the Yes side be viewed?
I think the union is a good thing, but if its going to be fought over time and time again with such venom and what can only be described as hatred, then like a once happy marriage, there gets to a point where it's not worth it anymore.
Roll on September, one way or the other, as a certain (semi-fictional) Scot once said,
'If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly'
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It's nice that you have a new hobby horse. Samond's wife, Francois Hollande and the entire Catholic faith must be greatly relieved.TGOHF said:
Cameron's olive branch to the Wings over Somerset branch of the cybernats ?Theuniondivvie said:James Cook @BBCJamesCook 2 mins
David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyref0 -
Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...0
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An apology for what exactly ?taffys said:Thanks Carlotta I read the PM's speech with interest.
It had everything in it apart from one thing. An apology.
Scotland has, down the centuries, been intermittently f8cked over by England. The genuine venom we get from the SNP posters on here shows that there is a real, visceral hatred for a certain type of Englishman which I can only imagine is borne of historical grievances.
Cameron could have mentioned this unfortunate and sad history of the two countries, and England's culpability in causing some of the misery.
Perhaps you like to enlighten this Scot of a certain vintage how we have been "f8cked over by England" down the centuries ?
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''only if it's in bold and they forget Cammie is on twitter too.''
Let's face it Mick. Nothing that Cameron could have said would have got anything other than a torrent of contempt from you.
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Can we have the like button back PLEASE?!MarkSenior said:Today's Populus Lab 36 Con 33 LD 9 UKIP 15
Massive changes to Populus weightings make the results not comparable to previous Populus polls0 -
I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.TGOHF said:Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...
Noted political commentator Ronan Keating best summed it up in a song.0 -
Mr. Me, regional assemblies would be a ****ing abomination. England should not be carved up into slices. One Parliament, or none.0
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Well, that's because his adage has a kernel of truth to it.Theuniondivvie said:
My newly minted adage is that anyone who doesn't like what tweets say invariably dredges up Cameron's twitweetwat adage.JosiasJessop said:
More examples that Cameron's Twitter adage was correct.Theuniondivvie said:
It's blustery in England at the moment.CarlottaVance said:
Agree - he does these big set piece things well.JackW said:Simply an excellent speech by the PM.
I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....
Brian Moore @brianmoore666 9 mins
Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.
Bonnie Greer @Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.
Jon Tonge @JonTonge 15 mins
How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron
The problem with such posts is that it's easy to find contrary opinions and tweets from all sorts of entities and non-entities, and most are anything but insightful. We could all make contrary lists to back up our particular views.
This Twitasm will die off. Maybe even the service itself if they cannot stem the losses, to be replaced with something else.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/digital-media/10619943/Twitter-shares-plunge-on-slowdown-in-tweeters-and-losses.html0 -
By that "logic" the shares should have been priced at £100 a pop. Yet pretty much every share issue is priced to sit just below the market value to ensure good take-up. Now obviously the positioning is sometimes wrong, but the intent is there.Wulfrun_Phil said:
Do you understand how a share issue works?JackW said:
Do you understand how a share issue works ?Wulfrun_Phil said:
What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.JackW said:
I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.MarqueeMark said:
Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.CarlottaVance said:A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......
Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.
Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.
Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
A failure to place the shares to market means the price is too high. Thus the market price will be lower in the immediate future.
By pricing the shares above what turns out to be the market value in an undersubscribed offer, you get above market value for the shares that are taken up, and at a later date market value for the shares that you are left with when you sell them later. So overall, you end up with more than the market value on average.
By pricing the offer below what turns out to be the market value in an oversubscribed offer, you get below market value for the lot. HM Government has had a lot of practice at that and they never seem to learn the lesson.0 -
I'm sure the UK authorities have learned a lot from their past mistakes, Alanbrooke.Alanbrooke said:
The only one that has left so far, left in a blaze of violence. That's a first step I'm sure you wouldn't recommend.Neil said:
Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.TheWatcher said:
Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.Neil said:
The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.Neil said:
I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.TGOHF said:Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...
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Because I think saying nothing is the best thing he can do for his side.Slackbladder said:
Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.Neil said:
I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.TGOHF said:Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...
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That was my point - thanks for making it much more clearly.Anorak said:
Just because 15% backed the strike in that scenario does not mean that just 15% will be on strike. 30% of all tube members backed the strike, but 90%+ of union members complied with the result.OblitusSumMe said:Strike action by 15% of a workforce is not going to be terribly effective. I expect it's well below the holiday rate during school holidays in many workplaces.
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Let's face it taffys. Nothing that Cameron could have said would have got anything other than a torrent of gushing praise from the PB tories.taffys said:''only if it's in bold and they forget Cammie is on twitter too.''
Let's face it Mick. Nothing that Cameron could have said would have got anything other than a torrent of contempt from you.
It's the scottish public that have to be persuaded by Cammie, not me or the PB tories.
I for one will be delighted if Cammie's speech gets as much coverage as possible on the scottish news tonight.0 -
This isn't a football game (as much as it seems sometime). What he said was of value, and no doubt plenty will disagree with it.Neil said:
Because I think saying nothing is the best thing he can do for his side.Slackbladder said:
Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.Neil said:
I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.TGOHF said:Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...
It seems winning the 'game' has become more important than making the right decision, whichever way that decision goes.0 -
Undoubtedly, that's why we have various local assemblies and referenda. It makes the Uk such a relaxed place to live in.Neil said:
I'm sure the UK authorities have learned a lot from their past mistakes, Alanbrooke.Alanbrooke said:
The only one that has left so far, left in a blaze of violence. That's a first step I'm sure you wouldn't recommend.Neil said:
Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.TheWatcher said:
Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.Neil said:
The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
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He'd be painted as disinterested and of not caring about Scotland. Not saying anything would also be a boon for the Nats. His "posh Englishness" means he's kind-of-doomed whatever he does, but by speaking he at least looks better to rUK.Neil said:
Because I think saying nothing is the best thing he can do for his side.Slackbladder said:
Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.Neil said:
I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.TGOHF said:Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...
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My word you are economically illiterate.Wulfrun_Phil said:
Do you understand how a share issue works?JackW said:
Do you understand how a share issue works ?Wulfrun_Phil said:
What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.JackW said:
I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.MarqueeMark said:
Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.CarlottaVance said:A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......
Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.
Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.
Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
A failure to place the shares to market means the price is too high. Thus the market price will be lower in the immediate future.
By pricing the shares above what turns out to be the market value in an undersubscribed offer, you get above market value for the shares that are taken up, and at a later date market value for the shares that you are left with when you sell them later. So overall, you end up with more than the market value on average.
By pricing the offer below what turns out to be the market value in an oversubscribed offer, you get below market value for the lot. HM Government has had a lot of practice at that and they never seem to learn the lesson.
1. How many shares in your undersubscribed offer would be taken up ?
2. Good luck finding anyone to underwrite such a scheme.
3. Overpricing the shares will deflate the market for the immediate future.
4. Don't apply for a job in the city.
5. Apply as an economic adviser to Ed Balls - You'll do handsomely.
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An apology for what exactly ?
The poll tax experiment for starters.
I've heard the highland clearances called 'pogroms' by one high profile SNP supporter.
Nasty repression after 1745?
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Then the Union is finished. Cameron's problem seems to be that he is a Tory and has an English accent. If this makes anything he says about Scotland a disaster for the No side, the whole referendum debate is one that is based on prejudice and nothing more.Neil said:
Because I think saying nothing is the best thing he can do for his side.Slackbladder said:
Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.Neil said:
I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.TGOHF said:Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...
Are Scots voters really so parochial that they dismiss anything an English Tory might say or instinctively distrust it so much that they migrate to the alternative view? The Scots I know are not like that, but maybe they are a minority.
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Indeed, Cameron's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.0
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I wouldnt say that - 'no' has a pretty healthy lead right now.SouthamObserver said:
Then the Union is finished.0 -
There are a lot of English politicians who moan about the overbearing power of London - giving them a bit of devolution independent of London would make them directly accountable to their own electorates and reduce their ability to blame London for their failings/able to solve their own problems without London meddling.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Me, regional assemblies would be a ****ing abomination. England should not be carved up into slices. One Parliament, or none.
It would be great.
Besides which my main point would be that a devolved English Parliament within the UK would very rapidly become an England independent of the UK, because a Federation with one such large member is not stable.
The resurgent English nationalism that you favour would lead to the end of the UK, not save it. That's fine as long as you are clear that's what you want, otherwise you are likely to be very disappointed if an English parliament ever comes to pass.0 -
Being out of touch which is backed up by the polling. Just like Romney was as I'm sure you remember.SouthamObserver said:
Then the Union is finished. Cameron's problem seems to be0 -
Salmonds asking for a divorce, but wants to keep the joint bank account.Slackbladder said:
I think the union is a good thing, but if its going to be fought over time and time again with such venom and what can only be described as hatred, then like a once happy marriage, there gets to a point where it's not worth it anymore.SouthamObserver said:If the PM of the United Kingdom making a speech about preserving the United Kingdom really is going to make it more likely that it will break-up, then it is totally buggered anyway and we might as well just get on with it.
But if that is the case, let's not have anyone pretend that the referendum campaign is in any way a rational debate about pros and cons. It's based on prejudice and nothing more.
How else can claims that a Tory with an English voice giving an opinion on the break-up of the country he leads and of which he is a citizen is a huge help to the Yes side be viewed?
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Well, let's hope that continues as it would imply that the Scots are not as prejudiced as some on the Yes side believe that they may be.Neil said:
I wouldnt say that - 'no' has a pretty healthy lead right now.SouthamObserver said:
Then the Union is finished.0 -
Did you read the transcript CarlottaVance posted? Read it in a George Galloway voice if you like. It'll still sound like he's trying to lose on purpose.SouthamObserver said:Cameron's problem seems to be that he is a Tory and has an English accent.
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SouthamObserver said:
If the PM of the United Kingdom making a speech about preserving the United Kingdom really is going to make it more likely that it will break-up, then it is totally buggered anyway and we might as well just get on with it.
But if that is the case, let's not have anyone pretend that the referendum campaign is in any way a rational debate about pros and cons. It's based on prejudice and nothing more.
How else can claims that a Tory with an English voice giving an opinion on the break-up of the country he leads and of which he is a citizen is a huge help to the Yes side be viewed?
Quite so.0 -
Mr. Taffys, the Poll Tax was hardly industrial slaughter.
As for the highland clearances, I wonder if I should be nursing a grievance about the Harrying of the North...
I think not. If others want to cling to grudges through the centuries that's up to them, but I think it's petty foolishness. It's that kind of past grievance which have made Ireland and the Middle East rather bloodier than they needed to be. Meanwhile, Britain and Germany, whilst remembering the Second World War, have managed not to cling to angry memories so much despite the greater scale and recency of the war in question.
Mr. Observer, I agree with you entirely. If an English PM making a speech is so offensive to the Scots it helps Yes, then the union is over.0 -
Mr. Me, the English Parliament could be located elsewhere (probably Birmingham, which would be nobody's first choice but a reasonable compromise).0
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So you're fine with being accused of prejudice if you post anything that implies Cammie is out of touch from now on? Your choice.SouthamObserver said:
Well, let's hope that continues as it would imply that the Scots are not as prejudiced as some on the Yes side believe that they may be.Neil said:
I wouldnt say that - 'no' has a pretty healthy lead right now.SouthamObserver said:
Then the Union is finished.0
This discussion has been closed.