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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If UKIP is to win Westminster seats it needs much more dire

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  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited February 2014
    perdix said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Tim Wigmore ‏@timwig 4m

    Why a pact with the Tories would be a disaster for Ukip - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukipwatch/100258571/a-pact-with-the-conservatives-doesnt-make-sense-for-ukip/ … >Another great Ukip post from @robfordmancs and @GoodwinMJ


    Trouble began only days later, when it was revealed Pearson had made an offer to David Cameron that Ukip candidates would step down at the 2010 election in return for a referendum on Britain’s relationship with Europe. As Pearson told his new party, unseating Eurosceptic Tories was "shooting our cause in the knee, and country in the heart". Cameron never replied, but the move caused serious conflict inside Ukip. Many in the grassroots were furious; they wanted nothing to do with the establishment and argued an alliance would wreck their goal of breaking up the party system. Appealing across party lines made no sense if they were in cahoots with the established politicians. The simmering tension soon spiralled into open rebellion, as in the South West constituency of Wells where local Ukippers simply refused the order to stand down. They went on to win 3.1 per cent, while the Tories lost the seat by 1.5 per cent.
    A deal by the Tories with ukip would be a disaster for the Tories. ukip is a completely off-the-wall inconsistent outfit full of Tory rejects.



    Tory rejects who are polling at easily far more than the sub 5% (and back to their 2010 levels) that Cammie himself said the kippers need to be for him to have a chance. That's right now, before the May EU elections.
  • James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook 2 mins
    David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyref
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The Govt took the Royal Mail, which was working well and generating revenue for the treasury /taxpayer, and sold it for billions less than it was worth. In what sense is this a good thing?

    Gordon Brown took the UK's gold reserves, even though the price was at the lowest in a millenium and the reserve was working well to underpin the UK's credit, and sold it for 10 billion pounds less than it would have been worth ultimately. Just because he could

    In what sense is that a good thing?
  • JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    Agree - he does these big set piece things well.

    I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    isam said:

    No chance of an alliance though, Farage expressly ruled it out on the show last night

    Farage ruling out a pact with the Tories is like me ruling out going on a date with Ryan Gosling. Sure, it's probably accurate but neither of us were ever going to be asked in the first place.
  • TGOHF said:

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    A speech that Ed Miliband simply could not make.
    I'd give Ed credit that he'd be above that kind of Downton drivel (just).
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook 2 mins
    David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyref

    Amusing and quite possibly to do with this as well.
    Tim Montgomerie ‏@TimMontgomerie Feb 3

    From @jameskirkup's evening email: "It has now been 230 days since David Cameron gave a full press conference in the UK". Not good.
    Fop chicken is still on the menu.

  • Anorak said:

    Mr. Stopper, are you referring to the suggestion that 50% of all members must vote for a strike, or the proposal that certain workers not presently prevented from striking (ie Tube workers) should be?

    I don't think that 50% should be required, although 51% of a 30% vote turnout is taking the p*ss. There must be a middle ground. Say a simple majority of the vote plus a condition that the majority must be more than 40% of all members.
    If a Union were to call a strike with only the support of 51% of a 30% turnout, without being confident that a majority of the other 70% would also support the action, then they would be leading their members to defeat.

    Strike action by 15% of a workforce is not going to be terribly effective. I expect it's well below the holiday rate during school holidays in many workplaces.

    So why bother putting a legal limit in place? If the strike really isn't supported by the union membership it isn't going to succeed anyway. On the other hand, if there's a genuine feeling of discontent in a workplace, and you place a bureaucratic hurdle in the way of official action because some people were busy enough to forget to vote, then you risk that discontent breaking out in unofficial strike action, probably lead by militants who aren't in the Union bureaucracy, and it becomes a lot harder to negotiate with and contain.
  • TGOHF said:

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    A speech that Ed Miliband simply could not make.
    Which is a bit of a bugger as it's Labour voters in Scotland that need persuading, not Tory ones....

  • Mr. Divvie, bit class war of you.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    TGOHF said:

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    A speech that Ed Miliband simply could not make.
    A speech that a Labour leader would not have to make.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited February 2014
    Neil said:

    isam said:

    No chance of an alliance though, Farage expressly ruled it out on the show last night

    Farage ruling out a pact with the Tories is like me ruling out going on a date with Ryan Gosling. Sure, it's probably accurate but neither of us were ever going to be asked in the first place.
    Well ok, but if you were on tv and an interviewer asked you I guess you would answer?
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    TGOHF said:

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    A speech that Ed Miliband simply could not make.
    Which is a bit of a bugger as it's Labour voters in Scotland that need persuading, not Tory ones....

    Who better than Ed Balls supporting scottish tories to do so then?

    :)
  • Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited February 2014
    Mick_Pork said:

    TGOHF said:

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    A speech that Ed Miliband simply could not make.
    Which is a bit of a bugger as it's Labour voters in Scotland that need persuading, not Tory ones....

    Who better than Ed Balls supporting scottish tories to do so then?

    :)
    nonsense on stilts, to quote Jim Sillars, from that article.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2014

    James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook 2 mins
    David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyref

    It's all about priorities, Divvie.

    Wet reality trumps Independence fantasy.

    The media know which is the bigger story.

  • JackW said:


    A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......

    Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.
    I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.

    Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.

    Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.



    What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.

    Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    isam said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    No chance of an alliance though, Farage expressly ruled it out on the show last night

    Farage ruling out a pact with the Tories is like me ruling out going on a date with Ryan Gosling. Sure, it's probably accurate but neither of us were ever going to be asked in the first place.
    Well ok, but if you were on tv and an interviewer asked you I guess you would answer?
    I'd hold my phone number up on a board just in case.
  • JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    Agree - he does these big set piece things well.

    I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....

    It's blustery in England at the moment.

    Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666 9 mins
    Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.

    Bonnie Greer ‏@Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
    Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.

    Jon Tonge ‏@JonTonge 15 mins
    How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron

  • Jonathan said:

    TGOHF said:

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    A speech that Ed Miliband simply could not make.
    A speech that a Labour leader would not have to make.
    Then why are Scottish Labour voters less pro-Union than coalition ones? If the Scots vote for independence it will be Labour voters who swing it. Don't you think Miliband should contribute?
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    Jonathan said:

    TGOHF said:

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    A speech that Ed Miliband simply could not make.
    A speech that a Labour leader would not have to make.
    Then why are Scottish Labour voters less pro-Union than coalition ones? If the Scots vote for independence it will be Labour voters who swing it. Don't you think Miliband should contribute?
    When he does you can then praise him to the skies and won't that be entertaining.

    LOL
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.
  • Mr. Neil, indeed, and how did that come about? Could it be because of the lopsided and stupid devolution Labour created in order to try and give itself a permanent fiefdom?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @Morris_Dancer

    It came about because of democracy. Damn Labour and their democratic ways, someone should do something about them.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2014
    Neil said:

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.
    Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    Agree - he does these big set piece things well.

    I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....

    It's blustery in England at the moment.

    Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666 9 mins
    Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.

    Bonnie Greer ‏@Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
    Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.

    Jon Tonge ‏@JonTonge 15 mins
    How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron

    Ah - anecdotes.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    Agree - he does these big set piece things well.

    I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....

    It's blustery in England at the moment.

    Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666 9 mins
    Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.

    Bonnie Greer ‏@Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
    Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.

    Jon Tonge ‏@JonTonge 15 mins
    How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron

    More examples that Cameron's Twitter adage was correct.
  • Mr. Neil, democracy? To ask Wales and Scotland about devolution, but ignore England?

    Funny how only the bits of Britain Labour thought they could be permanently in control got asked.

    And don't try and reply with that limp-wristed regional assembly bullshit. If Scotland has a Parliament then it is only just that England has one (or, at the very least, the opportunity to vote aye or nay for one).
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.
    Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.
    Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.
  • Labour must find a way of working with Cameron to save the Union

    The Labour Party and Labour supporters must find a way to accommodate Cameron’s unfortunate but necessary need to be involved in the debate about the future of Scotland and the union as a whole. The continued snark to the contrary only serves to help push Scotland towards the exit door. Whilst I sincerely believe that there are many Tories who would happily see Scotland leave the UK, I’m certain Cameron isn’t one of them. He’ll want to fight to save his country as many of us wish to save ours.

    http://labourlist.org/2014/02/labour-must-find-a-way-of-working-with-cameron-to-save-the-union/
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:


    A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......

    Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.
    I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.

    Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.

    Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.



    What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.

    Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
    Do you understand how a share issue works ?

    A failure to place the shares to market means the price is too high. Thus the market price will be lower in the immediate future.



  • Mick_Pork said:

    Jonathan said:

    TGOHF said:

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    A speech that Ed Miliband simply could not make.
    A speech that a Labour leader would not have to make.
    Then why are Scottish Labour voters less pro-Union than coalition ones? If the Scots vote for independence it will be Labour voters who swing it. Don't you think Miliband should contribute?
    When he does you can then praise him to the skies and won't that be entertaining.

    LOL
    Not quite as entertaining as your increasingly desperate attempts to avoid Salmond's "nonsense on stilts" currency plan.....

    LOL indeed.....


  • Cameron:
    You don’t need a customs check when you travel over the border, you don’t have to get out your passport out at Carlisle, you don’t have to deal with totally different tax systems and regulations when you trade and you don’t have to trade in different currencies.
    He's planning to join Schengen and the Euro, it's just a matter of time...
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @Morris_Dancer

    Democracy affords you the opportunity to vote for a party offering a referendum on English devolution or even independence. Your problem seems to be with your fellow English people who simply dont seem to care as much as you about this.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,550
    NP on sky
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    TGOHF said:

    Given that Cameron's speech is directed at rUK - where do you suggest he gives the speech - Albania ?

    I though it brave of Cameron to make a speech in the Cybernats backyard, some tartan tories are now so tory they've taken live in the south of England . :-)
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.
    Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.
    Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.
    Ha Ha, Salmonds preferred option has always been Devomax. How many years do you think he'd wait before taking another bold, brave step. 10? 20? 50?

  • JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    Agree - he does these big set piece things well.

    I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....

    It's blustery in England at the moment.

    Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666 9 mins
    Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.

    Bonnie Greer ‏@Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
    Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.

    Jon Tonge ‏@JonTonge 15 mins
    How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron

    More examples that Cameron's Twitter adage was correct.
    My newly minted adage is that anyone who doesn't like what tweets say invariably dredges up Cameron's twitweetwat adage.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Mr. Neil, democracy? To ask Wales and Scotland about devolution, but ignore England?

    Funny how only the bits of Britain Labour thought they could be permanently in control got asked.

    And don't try and reply with that limp-wristed regional assembly bullshit. If Scotland has a Parliament then it is only just that England has one (or, at the very least, the opportunity to vote aye or nay for one).

    Do English voters want one ? .... the evidence is thin.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    NP on sky

    I turned over and all they said was "A British citizen has been suspected of carrying out a suicide bombing in Syria"

    Say it isn't so Nick!
  • TGOHF said:

    Given that Cameron's speech is directed at rUK - where do you suggest he gives the speech - Albania ?

    I though it brave of Cameron to make a speech in the Cybernats backyard, some tartan tories are now so tory they've taken live in the south of England . :-)
    Ah! That's why the first question was about Somerset!

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Labour must find a way of working with Cameron to save the Union

    I'm sure they are doing their best to shut him up and keep him out of Scotland but you cant expect them to literally tie him up until the referendum is over.
  • If the PM of the United Kingdom making a speech about preserving the United Kingdom really is going to make it more likely that it will break-up, then it is totally buggered anyway and we might as well just get on with it.

    But if that is the case, let's not have anyone pretend that the referendum campaign is in any way a rational debate about pros and cons. It's based on prejudice and nothing more.

    How else can claims that a Tory with an English voice giving an opinion on the break-up of the country he leads and of which he is a citizen is a huge help to the Yes side be viewed?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Thanks Carlotta I read the PM's speech with interest.

    It had everything in it apart from one thing. An apology.

    Scotland has, down the centuries, been intermittently f8cked over by England. The genuine venom we get from the SNP posters on here shows that there is a real, visceral hatred for a certain type of Englishman which I can only imagine is borne of historical grievances.

    Cameron could have mentioned this unfortunate and sad history of the two countries, and England's culpability in causing some of the misery.

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Pulpstar said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Surely a man with the name of David William Donald Cameron should make his speech regarding Scotland IN Scotland, "No" might be a long way ahead in the polls but making the speech in London of all places ?!

    It just gives off the impression that the Gov't is completely London-centric, should have given it in Lockerbie I reckon.

    What makes you think that, deep down, he actually wants to thwart the Nats?
    You mean PR Dave might not MEAN what he's saying? I've just rushed my faith in humanity to Casualty.
    I think replacing "PR Dave" with "any politician since the dawn of time" would result in an equally true statement. Unless you actually believe everything Mr Salmond feeds you?!
    Of all the current very front benchers I'd say Ed Miliband is the biggest believer in his own bollocks followed by George Osborne.
    Balls and Salmond are both reassuringly dishonest - Cameron likes to spout crap too but he is a country before party man on the Scottish Referendum issue I think.
    I am humbled by your lack of cynicism :)
  • Mr. Neil, the vote should've occurred in 1997. As for now, the Westminster politicians know that a devolved England would have the lion's share of money and power over just about everything except Foreign and Defence matters (and some areas of the Treasury). They don't want to lose that from Westminster.

    Refusing to ask, let alone answer, the West Lothian Question has been a terrible failing of all the major parties, but the worst is Labour, for it was their selfish, cackhanded and utterly inept meddling which created the problem in the first place.

    Their efforts to kill Scottish nationalism stone dead have proven as prophetic as John Reid's suggestion we could leave Helmand without a shot being fired.
  • Hugh said:

    "That was a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Scottish Nationalist Party"
    Labour List:

    Yet many within the Labour movement find themselves in a strange position on Scottish Independence. Intellectually and emotionally they find themselves on the same side as a Tory PM whom they dislike intensely. That creates a tension between those two strongly held positions, and encourages snark whenever the PM has anything to say on the union. It causes many of us to say that Cameron should “butt out” of the debate, that his every intervention is counterproductive and that it’d be better if he never spoke or thought the word Scotland ever again.

    Can you honestly imagine any other nation on earth where the leader of a country that was potentially about to break up would stay out of the debate? I know we British are considered polite – but this seems to be taking it to an extreme.


    http://labourlist.org/2014/02/labour-must-find-a-way-of-working-with-cameron-to-save-the-union/
  • Cluck, cluck.

    Nick Robinson ‏@bbcnickrobinson 21 mins
    PM takes just 2 questions on major speech on Scotland cf @AlexSalmond who took well over a dozen @Number10press
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.
    Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.
    Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.
    Ha Ha, Salmonds preferred option has always been Devomax. How many years do you think he'd wait before taking another bold, brave step. 10? 20? 50?

    I bet he'll beat the 26 and a bit years it took the Irish Free State to complete its transformation into the Republic of Ireland.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    A turnover tax is not completely bonkers, but may need careful design, and abolition of corporation tax. It is potentially a way of getting companies like Starbucks and Amazon to pay to this country, in the way that WHSmiths and Costa coffee (Whitbread) do. Some careful thought could tap a source of income and level the playing field so as not to keep company profits off shore.
    Pulpstar said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    CCHQ Press Office ‏@CCHQPress 22h

    ANOTHER tax bombshell from Labour - Labour are biggest threat to the recovery, jobs & long term prosperity of Britain http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5425367/ed-balls-urged-to-slap-turnover-tax-on-business.html
    Another quandry for Carlotta. Keep spinning for her new economic guru Ed Balls or u-turn and decide he's a liability again today?

    :)
    Turnover tax?

    Of all the most idiotic stupid ideas possible...that one is up there. Effectively VAT but without the neutral-ness of it to businesses.
    Ken Livingstone proposed the turnover tax at the NEC summit as a way of stopping "tax evasion and avoidance"

    Lunatic idea from commie Ken.

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Today's Populus Lab 36 Con 33 LD 9 UKIP 15

    Massive changes to Populus weightings make the results not comparable to previous Populus polls
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    TGOHF said:

    Given that Cameron's speech is directed at rUK - where do you suggest he gives the speech - Albania ?

    I though it brave of Cameron to make a speech in the Cybernats backyard, some tartan tories are now so tory they've taken live in the south of England . :-)
    Ah! That's why the first question was about Somerset!

    Wings over Scotland has very wet feathers.

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited February 2014
    I think Cameron's problem is that, although he's said to visit PB occasionally, he obviously has been a bit busy with other things so probably hasn't followed it every day. If he had, I'm sure that, like me, he'd have been persuaded to back Scottish independence by the posts of our resident Nats.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Typical Cameron speech full of project fear scaremongering about being bitter together.

    Did I win the natbingo ?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.
    Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.
    Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.
    The only one that has left so far, left in a blaze of violence. That's a first step I'm sure you wouldn't recommend.
  • JackW said:

    JackW said:


    A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......

    Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.
    I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.

    Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.

    Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.



    What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.

    Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
    Do you understand how a share issue works ?

    A failure to place the shares to market means the price is too high. Thus the market price will be lower in the immediate future.



    Do you understand how a share issue works?

    By pricing the shares above what turns out to be the market value in an undersubscribed offer, you get above market value for the shares that are taken up, and at a later date market value for the shares that you are left with when you sell them later. So overall, you end up with more than the market value on average.

    By pricing the offer below what turns out to be the market value in an oversubscribed offer, you get below market value for the lot. HM Government has had a lot of practice at that and they never seem to learn the lesson.




  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @Morris_Dancer

    As I said, your problem seems to be with the English who just dont seem very bothered by any of that.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook 2 mins
    David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyref

    Cameron's olive branch to the Wings over Somerset branch of the cybernats ?
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    Worth remembering that Scotland pushed for more independence after Thatcher's awful government crapped all over it and treated it like a petri dish for bonkers Tory policy.
  • I think Cameron's problem is that, although he's said to visit PB occasionally, he obviously has been a bit busy with other things so probably hasn't followed it every day. If he had, I'm sure that, like me, he'd have been persuaded to back Scottish independence by the posts of our resident Nats.

    Judging by that speech he hasn't just been persuaded, he's actively trying to make it happen.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Up to 366 (?) British citizens are fighting for the rebels in Syria according to the guy on Sky News (Shiraz Maher).

    With todays suicide bombing and these two, I guess you can make that 363

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546269/Pictured-North-London-brothers-died-fighting-alongside-Al-Qaeda-extremists-Syria-hailed-martyrs.html


  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Strike action by 15% of a workforce is not going to be terribly effective. I expect it's well below the holiday rate during school holidays in many workplaces.

    Just because 15% backed the strike in that scenario does not mean that just 15% will be on strike. 30% of all tube members backed the strike, but 90%+ of union members complied with the result.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    Agree - he does these big set piece things well.

    I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....

    It's blustery in England at the moment.

    Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666 9 mins
    Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.

    Bonnie Greer ‏@Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
    Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.

    Jon Tonge ‏@JonTonge 15 mins
    How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron

    More examples that Cameron's Twitter adage was correct.
    My newly minted adage is that anyone who doesn't like what tweets say invariably dredges up Cameron's twitweetwat adage.
    Only if it's in bold and they forget Cammie is on twitter too.

    There's certainly a great deal of amusing shrieking coming from the PB tories. Let's hope they keep it up as they are about as likely to persuade the scottish public as Cammie is yet they never seem to notice.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.
    Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.
    Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.
    The only one that has left so far, left in a blaze of violence. That's a first step I'm sure you wouldn't recommend.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    New better-off-with-UKIP issue:

    "...the new E10 fuel being introduced in Britain to comply with the EU’s renewable energy directive cuts the mileage per gallon that drivers will get from their cars. … fuel economy fell by as much as 10 per cent on vehicles using E10."

    http://www.ukip.org/newsroom/news/1142-new-eu-petrol-will-see-the-costs-of-motoring-soar-costing-british-drivers-billions
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "With the health records it will be really helpful for health researchers to look at the vast aggregates of data that will be made available."

    Very true, but for insurance companies, credit reference agencies, the police and no doubt a whole multitude of other government departments (local and national) that will be allowed access it is the details of the individual that they will be interested in. The fact that the police are to be allowed access surely gives the lie to the claim that the data will be subject to "pseudonymisation"".

    As long as the data includes gender, date of birth and post code they might just as well include the full name, address and national insurance number. Data aggregation techniques will enable any competent agency or company to match the health records to individuals in probably 90% of cases.

    Of course, HMG can make it a specific criminal offence to misuse the health data but that won't stop it happening any more than it has stopped bent employees misusing data from the Police National Computer.

    I am very surprised that Doctors are not up in arms about this because it destroys the whole basis of patient confidentiality that they supposedly hold so dear.
  • Mr. Neil, democracy? To ask Wales and Scotland about devolution, but ignore England?

    Funny how only the bits of Britain Labour thought they could be permanently in control got asked.

    And don't try and reply with that limp-wristed regional assembly bullshit. If Scotland has a Parliament then it is only just that England has one (or, at the very least, the opportunity to vote aye or nay for one).

    I partially agree with you here - the only regional assembly referendum that Labour held was for a regional assembly in the North-East. Not coincidentally, Labour took 43.6% of the vote in the North-East at the 2010 GE - higher even then they managed in Scotland.

    Labour had a half-arsed plan for devolution that involved only devolving power to places where they believed Labour politicians would be in charge. It's been a shock to them to see a Tory mayor in London and a Nationalist First Minister in Edinburgh. I fear this won't mean that they see a possibility of devolution to southern England as a way of reviving their own electoral fortunes there, but simply that its best for them to centralise power in Whitehall.

    That said, a Parliament for England would be as clear a way of telling the Welsh and the Northern Irish to feck off after the Scots as any I could think of. If you want to make a balanced federation of the UK then you have to break England down into smaller constituent parts which have strong regional identities - Yoprkshire, Wessex, Mercia, etc.
  • If the PM of the United Kingdom making a speech about preserving the United Kingdom really is going to make it more likely that it will break-up, then it is totally buggered anyway and we might as well just get on with it.

    But if that is the case, let's not have anyone pretend that the referendum campaign is in any way a rational debate about pros and cons. It's based on prejudice and nothing more.

    How else can claims that a Tory with an English voice giving an opinion on the break-up of the country he leads and of which he is a citizen is a huge help to the Yes side be viewed?

    Exactly correct SO. I have no doubt that Cameron is honest in what he says and believes about Scotland and the union, just as I'm sure Miliband or any labour politican does.

    I think the union is a good thing, but if its going to be fought over time and time again with such venom and what can only be described as hatred, then like a once happy marriage, there gets to a point where it's not worth it anymore.

    Roll on September, one way or the other, as a certain (semi-fictional) Scot once said,
    'If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
    It were done quickly'

  • TGOHF said:

    James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook 2 mins
    David Cameron makes pitch for Scotland to stay in UK. First question from the floor is about floods in England. #indyref

    Cameron's olive branch to the Wings over Somerset branch of the cybernats ?
    It's nice that you have a new hobby horse. Samond's wife, Francois Hollande and the entire Catholic faith must be greatly relieved.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    taffys said:

    Thanks Carlotta I read the PM's speech with interest.

    It had everything in it apart from one thing. An apology.

    Scotland has, down the centuries, been intermittently f8cked over by England. The genuine venom we get from the SNP posters on here shows that there is a real, visceral hatred for a certain type of Englishman which I can only imagine is borne of historical grievances.

    Cameron could have mentioned this unfortunate and sad history of the two countries, and England's culpability in causing some of the misery.

    An apology for what exactly ?

    Perhaps you like to enlighten this Scot of a certain vintage how we have been "f8cked over by England" down the centuries ?

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''only if it's in bold and they forget Cammie is on twitter too.''

    Let's face it Mick. Nothing that Cameron could have said would have got anything other than a torrent of contempt from you.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Today's Populus Lab 36 Con 33 LD 9 UKIP 15

    Massive changes to Populus weightings make the results not comparable to previous Populus polls

    Can we have the like button back PLEASE?!
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited February 2014
    TGOHF said:

    Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...

    I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.

    Noted political commentator Ronan Keating best summed it up in a song.
  • Mr. Me, regional assemblies would be a ****ing abomination. England should not be carved up into slices. One Parliament, or none.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    JackW said:

    Simply an excellent speech by the PM.

    Agree - he does these big set piece things well.

    I guess it will get a bit blustery from the north now......and I don't mean the weather.....

    It's blustery in England at the moment.

    Brian Moore ‏@brianmoore666 9 mins
    Cameron speaking on the Scottish Referendum - full of sentimentality, illogicality and nonsense. A boon for Salmond.

    Bonnie Greer ‏@Bonn1eGreer 14 mins
    Cam's anti- #Scotland independence pitch has all the gravitas and eloquence of a guy selling time shares . Get down to #SomersetLevels.

    Jon Tonge ‏@JonTonge 15 mins
    How to end the Union via a single speech #Cameron

    More examples that Cameron's Twitter adage was correct.
    My newly minted adage is that anyone who doesn't like what tweets say invariably dredges up Cameron's twitweetwat adage.
    Well, that's because his adage has a kernel of truth to it.

    The problem with such posts is that it's easy to find contrary opinions and tweets from all sorts of entities and non-entities, and most are anything but insightful. We could all make contrary lists to back up our particular views.

    This Twitasm will die off. Maybe even the service itself if they cannot stem the losses, to be replaced with something else.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/digital-media/10619943/Twitter-shares-plunge-on-slowdown-in-tweeters-and-losses.html
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    JackW said:

    JackW said:


    A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......

    Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.
    I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.

    Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.

    Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.



    What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.

    Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
    Do you understand how a share issue works ?

    A failure to place the shares to market means the price is too high. Thus the market price will be lower in the immediate future.



    Do you understand how a share issue works?

    By pricing the shares above what turns out to be the market value in an undersubscribed offer, you get above market value for the shares that are taken up, and at a later date market value for the shares that you are left with when you sell them later. So overall, you end up with more than the market value on average.

    By pricing the offer below what turns out to be the market value in an oversubscribed offer, you get below market value for the lot. HM Government has had a lot of practice at that and they never seem to learn the lesson.
    By that "logic" the shares should have been priced at £100 a pop. Yet pretty much every share issue is priced to sit just below the market value to ensure good take-up. Now obviously the positioning is sometimes wrong, but the intent is there.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.
    Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.
    Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.
    The only one that has left so far, left in a blaze of violence. That's a first step I'm sure you wouldn't recommend.
    I'm sure the UK authorities have learned a lot from their past mistakes, Alanbrooke.
  • Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...

    I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.
    Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...

    I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.
    Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.
    Because I think saying nothing is the best thing he can do for his side.
  • Anorak said:

    Strike action by 15% of a workforce is not going to be terribly effective. I expect it's well below the holiday rate during school holidays in many workplaces.

    Just because 15% backed the strike in that scenario does not mean that just 15% will be on strike. 30% of all tube members backed the strike, but 90%+ of union members complied with the result.
    That was my point - thanks for making it much more clearly.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited February 2014
    taffys said:

    ''only if it's in bold and they forget Cammie is on twitter too.''

    Let's face it Mick. Nothing that Cameron could have said would have got anything other than a torrent of contempt from you.

    Let's face it taffys. Nothing that Cameron could have said would have got anything other than a torrent of gushing praise from the PB tories.

    It's the scottish public that have to be persuaded by Cammie, not me or the PB tories.
    I for one will be delighted if Cammie's speech gets as much coverage as possible on the scottish news tonight.
  • Neil said:

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...

    I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.
    Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.
    Because I think saying nothing is the best thing he can do for his side.
    This isn't a football game (as much as it seems sometime). What he said was of value, and no doubt plenty will disagree with it.

    It seems winning the 'game' has become more important than making the right decision, whichever way that decision goes.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Mr. Jonathan, given that the whole reason the UK could separate is because of Labour's constitutional meddling you might wish to reconsider extolling the virtues of Labour leaders when it comes to Scotland.

    The whole reason that Scotland might become independent is because the Scottish people might vote for independence.
    Sadly for them, that's not what Alex 'Keep the Pound' Salmond is offering.
    Everyone knows that countries leave the UK in steps. The most important step is the first one.
    The only one that has left so far, left in a blaze of violence. That's a first step I'm sure you wouldn't recommend.
    I'm sure the UK authorities have learned a lot from their past mistakes, Alanbrooke.
    Undoubtedly, that's why we have various local assemblies and referenda. It makes the Uk such a relaxed place to live in.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...

    I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.
    Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.
    Because I think saying nothing is the best thing he can do for his side.
    He'd be painted as disinterested and of not caring about Scotland. Not saying anything would also be a boon for the Nats. His "posh Englishness" means he's kind-of-doomed whatever he does, but by speaking he at least looks better to rUK.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:


    A little unfair - he predicted all 12 of the last 2 recessions......

    Nick Clegg also seems to have forgotten that as a financial analyst with Shell, Uncle Vince is probably better qualified as a "sort of share price expert" than almost anyone in the Government, and probably in the House.
    I think in fairness to St. Vince of the Cable and the Coalition two factors should be reflected upon.

    Firstly there is a distinct difference between placing over half a billion shares to the market at a price that analysts would recommend and the very limited sale of a million or so shares that come up daily.

    Secondly the Coalition has managed to successfully place the Post Office in the private sector, a feat thought unattainable by Thatcher and considered but binned by the Labour government as being both politically and financially far too difficult.



    What would have been the consequence of the share issue being undersubscribed? Answer: The government would have been left with a limited shareholding in the Post Office which it could have sold off at around the market price later. No real problem there.

    Face up to it. The sale of Post Office shares at such a cheap price was a huge waste of a public asset.
    Do you understand how a share issue works ?

    A failure to place the shares to market means the price is too high. Thus the market price will be lower in the immediate future.



    Do you understand how a share issue works?

    By pricing the shares above what turns out to be the market value in an undersubscribed offer, you get above market value for the shares that are taken up, and at a later date market value for the shares that you are left with when you sell them later. So overall, you end up with more than the market value on average.

    By pricing the offer below what turns out to be the market value in an oversubscribed offer, you get below market value for the lot. HM Government has had a lot of practice at that and they never seem to learn the lesson.




    My word you are economically illiterate.

    1. How many shares in your undersubscribed offer would be taken up ?
    2. Good luck finding anyone to underwrite such a scheme.
    3. Overpricing the shares will deflate the market for the immediate future.
    4. Don't apply for a job in the city.
    5. Apply as an economic adviser to Ed Balls - You'll do handsomely.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    An apology for what exactly ?

    The poll tax experiment for starters.

    I've heard the highland clearances called 'pogroms' by one high profile SNP supporter.

    Nasty repression after 1745?

  • Neil said:

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Lefty unionist posters appear to be critical of Cameron's speech but light on what he (or Ed ) should have said...

    I think a lot of people have been consistent in saying he should probably keep schtum.
    Why? He's the PM FFS. As SO said, if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom can't say what he wants on a political issue of this importance, then we should be at the stage where it might be better to let the Scots go their own way.
    Because I think saying nothing is the best thing he can do for his side.

    Then the Union is finished. Cameron's problem seems to be that he is a Tory and has an English accent. If this makes anything he says about Scotland a disaster for the No side, the whole referendum debate is one that is based on prejudice and nothing more.

    Are Scots voters really so parochial that they dismiss anything an English Tory might say or instinctively distrust it so much that they migrate to the alternative view? The Scots I know are not like that, but maybe they are a minority.

  • Indeed, Cameron's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983



    Then the Union is finished.

    I wouldnt say that - 'no' has a pretty healthy lead right now.
  • Mr. Me, regional assemblies would be a ****ing abomination. England should not be carved up into slices. One Parliament, or none.

    There are a lot of English politicians who moan about the overbearing power of London - giving them a bit of devolution independent of London would make them directly accountable to their own electorates and reduce their ability to blame London for their failings/able to solve their own problems without London meddling.

    It would be great.

    Besides which my main point would be that a devolved English Parliament within the UK would very rapidly become an England independent of the UK, because a Federation with one such large member is not stable.

    The resurgent English nationalism that you favour would lead to the end of the UK, not save it. That's fine as long as you are clear that's what you want, otherwise you are likely to be very disappointed if an English parliament ever comes to pass.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited February 2014



    Then the Union is finished. Cameron's problem seems to be

    Being out of touch which is backed up by the polling. Just like Romney was as I'm sure you remember.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    If the PM of the United Kingdom making a speech about preserving the United Kingdom really is going to make it more likely that it will break-up, then it is totally buggered anyway and we might as well just get on with it.

    But if that is the case, let's not have anyone pretend that the referendum campaign is in any way a rational debate about pros and cons. It's based on prejudice and nothing more.

    How else can claims that a Tory with an English voice giving an opinion on the break-up of the country he leads and of which he is a citizen is a huge help to the Yes side be viewed?

    I think the union is a good thing, but if its going to be fought over time and time again with such venom and what can only be described as hatred, then like a once happy marriage, there gets to a point where it's not worth it anymore.

    Salmonds asking for a divorce, but wants to keep the joint bank account.

  • Neil said:



    Then the Union is finished.

    I wouldnt say that - 'no' has a pretty healthy lead right now.

    Well, let's hope that continues as it would imply that the Scots are not as prejudiced as some on the Yes side believe that they may be.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited February 2014

    Cameron's problem seems to be that he is a Tory and has an English accent.

    Did you read the transcript CarlottaVance posted? Read it in a George Galloway voice if you like. It'll still sound like he's trying to lose on purpose.
  • If the PM of the United Kingdom making a speech about preserving the United Kingdom really is going to make it more likely that it will break-up, then it is totally buggered anyway and we might as well just get on with it.

    But if that is the case, let's not have anyone pretend that the referendum campaign is in any way a rational debate about pros and cons. It's based on prejudice and nothing more.

    How else can claims that a Tory with an English voice giving an opinion on the break-up of the country he leads and of which he is a citizen is a huge help to the Yes side be viewed?


    Quite so.
  • Mr. Taffys, the Poll Tax was hardly industrial slaughter.

    As for the highland clearances, I wonder if I should be nursing a grievance about the Harrying of the North...

    I think not. If others want to cling to grudges through the centuries that's up to them, but I think it's petty foolishness. It's that kind of past grievance which have made Ireland and the Middle East rather bloodier than they needed to be. Meanwhile, Britain and Germany, whilst remembering the Second World War, have managed not to cling to angry memories so much despite the greater scale and recency of the war in question.

    Mr. Observer, I agree with you entirely. If an English PM making a speech is so offensive to the Scots it helps Yes, then the union is over.
  • Mr. Me, the English Parliament could be located elsewhere (probably Birmingham, which would be nobody's first choice but a reasonable compromise).
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    Neil said:



    Then the Union is finished.

    I wouldnt say that - 'no' has a pretty healthy lead right now.

    Well, let's hope that continues as it would imply that the Scots are not as prejudiced as some on the Yes side believe that they may be.
    So you're fine with being accused of prejudice if you post anything that implies Cammie is out of touch from now on? Your choice.
This discussion has been closed.