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Mr B2,
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
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Whether the government is backing these amendments or no, as they'd be incompatible with the Withdrawal Agreement as currently worded, I suspect Mr Speaker will rule this Out of Order as a fairly meaningless self-wrecking amendment.0
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Effectively extends the possibility of 'No Deal' at the various cut off points throughout any transition, transition extension and backstop periods.Pulpstar said:
It'll have the support of Hoey, the DUP and the ERG. Not so much the rest of the house. Still it provides the Gov't with a good idea of the number of ultra-Brexiteers.Tissue_Price said:So this is how TM might win the vote... of course that doesn't mean we then have a Deal.
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/10702994113334763520 -
Worked last time they tried it!Stereotomy said:
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spiritTissue_Price said:So this is how TM might win the vote... of course that doesn't mean we then have a Deal.
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/1070299411333476352
I guess at this point since the deal as will fail and a renegotiation is labour policy and popular with the Tories too they might as well accept it. Goodness only knows what they do if they cannot get that change (The EU might like others to think again but they don't like being told it themselves) but I guess good luck to them.0 -
Whether 45-55 or 55-45, the constituency split of Brexit support massively favours Leave. Remainers have made the running since the referendum because Leavers had thought they had won. Brexit supporters need to make clear Labour are trying to sabotage Brexit by economically blackmailing the country into Remaining. They want mass immigration because the British public won't vote for their far left policies without demographic change.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigrationTOPPING said:
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.HYUFD said:
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega NordBig_G_NorthWales said:
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%HYUFD said:
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.algarkirk said:Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months0 -
Remain gone back to accusing people of being Hitler. Yawn.notme said:
That escalated quickly and is entirely unwarranted. You've never seen me make either anti semitic remarks or anti soros remarks.TheScreamingEagles said:
You are literally channelling Hitler with this stab in the back myth.notme said:
And we know why many remainers decided instead of trying to honour the result and be part of the process of negotiating our exit from the EU, they spent the time salting the earth and begging the EU to give us a punishment beating.AlastairMeeks said:Leavers at some point will start asking themselves why they made no attempt to forge a consensus. But not yet, I fancy.
Next you'll be blaming international Jewry.
Oh wait some other Leavers got there before with their vile anti Soros stuff.0 -
That’s where the stab in the back myth inevitably leads.notme said:
That escalated quickly and is entirely unwarranted. You've never seen me make either anti semitic remarks or anti soros remarks.TheScreamingEagles said:
You are literally channelling Hitler with this stab in the back myth.notme said:
And we know why many remainers decided instead of trying to honour the result and be part of the process of negotiating our exit from the EU, they spent the time salting the earth and begging the EU to give us a punishment beating.AlastairMeeks said:Leavers at some point will start asking themselves why they made no attempt to forge a consensus. But not yet, I fancy.
Next you'll be blaming international Jewry.
Oh wait some other Leavers got there before with their vile anti Soros stuff.
Cf Maria Caulfield’s tweet downthread.0 -
Far from it, the Tories won a majority in 2015 with UKIP on 12% and won a number of seats due to Labour defections to UKIP like Vale of Clwyd they lost in 2017 when UKIP fell.grabcocque said:
You keep threatening us with "splitting the Tory vote" and forgetting that most of us don't consider that much of a threat.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
Merkel won in 2017 despite a high AfD vote as it also took SPD voters.
Your analysis UKIP only takes from Tories is completely wrong and the far right BNP did best in Labour seats like Burnley and Dagenham0 -
Mr coque,
"The backstop is even more of a constitutional, politcal and legal outrage than any of us imagined."
I listened to the legal advice yesterday. We already knew it was dependent on the EU playing nicely. The AG and Mrs May think they will, I don't. Nothing has changed at all.0 -
You have to be a special kind of stupid to put your name to that amendment.Tissue_Price said:So this is how TM might win the vote... of course that doesn't mean we then have a Deal.
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/10702994113334763520 -
There's no way Bercow will select this. It's so transparently Out of Order it would make a mockery of the house if he allowed it to come to a vote.kle4 said:
Worked last time they tried it!Stereotomy said:
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spiritTissue_Price said:So this is how TM might win the vote... of course that doesn't mean we then have a Deal.
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/1070299411333476352
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I like my suggested amendment of 'seeking to rejoin the EU' in case we fall into the backstop
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No Deal won't be offered. It would be a choice between Remain, and take a deal we've voted down. Rather like a magician asking you to pick a card, any card.Nemtynakht said:
And when they vote no deal? You’ll be happy then I suppose.IanB2 said:
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.Richard_Tyndall said:
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.Nigelb said:
Hence the argument for a second referendum.Philip_Thompson said:
Great let them vote for it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core supportPhilip_Thompson said:
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be itPhilip_Thompson said:
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not the point reallyNotch said:
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond himScott_P said:
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.0 -
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.IanB2 said:
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.Richard_Tyndall said:
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.Nigelb said:
Hence the argument for a second referendum.Philip_Thompson said:
Great let them vote for it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core supportPhilip_Thompson said:
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be itPhilip_Thompson said:
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not the point reallyNotch said:
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond himScott_P said:
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.0 -
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration0 -
BT bars Huawei's 5G kit from core of network
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46453425
The government needs to act here.0 -
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.CD13 said:Mr B2,
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?0 -
He might accept it, so as to cause trouble.grabcocque said:
There's no way Bercow will select this. It's so transparently Out of Order it would make a mockery of the house if he allowed it to come to a vote.kle4 said:
Worked last time they tried it!Stereotomy said:
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spiritTissue_Price said:So this is how TM might win the vote... of course that doesn't mean we then have a Deal.
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/10702994113334763520 -
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.Theo said:We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
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Get back to work, Rudd.Theo said:
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
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Yes only Remainers are voting against this deal.Theo said:
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.IanB2 said:
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.Richard_Tyndall said:
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.Nigelb said:
Hence the argument for a second referendum.Philip_Thompson said:
Great let them vote for it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core supportPhilip_Thompson said:
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be itPhilip_Thompson said:
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not the point reallyNotch said:
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond himScott_P said:
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.0 -
It won't and North African and Middle Eastern migration to Europe and hence potentially to the UK remains as big an issue as everwilliamglenn said:
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration0 -
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.IanB2 said:
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.CD13 said:Mr B2,
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
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He is right, the Deal comfortably beats Remain or No Deal with Deltapollwilliamglenn said:
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.Theo said:We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
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He does like mischief. But I cannot see the House supporting it. But imagine the chaos if it did. Crikey.Sean_F said:
He might accept it, so as to cause trouble.grabcocque said:
There's no way Bercow will select this. It's so transparently Out of Order it would make a mockery of the house if he allowed it to come to a vote.kle4 said:
Worked last time they tried it!Stereotomy said:
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spiritTissue_Price said:So this is how TM might win the vote... of course that doesn't mean we then have a Deal.
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/1070299411333476352
Mrs May commanded to go back and renegotiate the backstop away with the EU, having cajoled them all into publicly saying that this deal was final.
Surely not enough humble pie in the universe for that?0 -
If the prominent leavers are making speeches praising the deal as a sensible and prudent first step toward the goal of independence from the EU (insofar as that is ever achievable given that it sits just across the Channel) then, with the honourable exception of Mr Gove, I must have missed them?Theo said:
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.IanB2 said:
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.Richard_Tyndall said:
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.Nigelb said:
Hence the argument for a second referendum.Philip_Thompson said:
Great let them vote for it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core supportPhilip_Thompson said:
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be itPhilip_Thompson said:
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not the point reallyNotch said:
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond himScott_P said:
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.0 -
Deltapoll is an outlier. Look at the YouGov poll above - there's been a marked swing against Brexit since the deal was published.HYUFD said:
He is right, the Deal comfortably beats Remain or No Deal with Deltapollwilliamglenn said:
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.Theo said:We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
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Which is another reason the House won't allow it on any referendum paper.HYUFD said:
He is right, the Deal comfortably beats Remain or No Deal with Deltapollwilliamglenn said:
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.Theo said:We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
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What are the latest immigration figures under Mrs May?Theo said:
Whether 45-55 or 55-45, the constituency split of Brexit support massively favours Leave. Remainers have made the running since the referendum because Leavers had thought they had won. Brexit supporters need to make clear Labour are trying to sabotage Brexit by economically blackmailing the country into Remaining. They want mass immigration because the British public won't vote for their far left policies without demographic change.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigrationTOPPING said:
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.HYUFD said:
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega NordBig_G_NorthWales said:
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%HYUFD said:
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.algarkirk said:Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution?
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
29-Nov -2018
"The number of EU citizens moving to the UK has continued to drop, but more people coming from elsewhere means the overall migration rate is unchanged.
Figures show net migration - the difference between how many people came to the UK for at least 12 months and how many left - was 273,000 last year.
EU net migration was 74,000 in the year to the end of June 2018, while non-EU net migration was 248,000.
The ONS said more Asian citizens had been moving to the UK for work."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-463844170 -
Is Corbyn a Leaver or a Remainr? It's the most important issue of the day so don't you think he should make his position clear?bigjohnowls said:
Ridiculous commentRoger said:Corbyn's a clown. Almost as culpable as Cameron Dacre and Murdoch. I'd be surprised if Momentum even stay on board
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Public vote on big turnout in 2016 to leave the EU.
Pro Remain HoC refuses to implement and asks the public to vote again.
C'mon.
If that is 'democracy' we need to ask the Oxford English to get toiling on a new definition.0 -
So, if I understand this correctly, you’re saying that mass immigration from countries where populist/right wing votes are generally increasing will push up the vote for left wing policies in Britain?Theo said:
Whether 45-55 or 55-45, the constituency split of Brexit support massively favours Leave. Remainers have made the running since the referendum because Leavers had thought they had won. Brexit supporters need to make clear Labour are trying to sabotage Brexit by economically blackmailing the country into Remaining. They want mass immigration because the British public won't vote for their far left policies without demographic change.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigrationTOPPING said:
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.HYUFD said:
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega NordBig_G_NorthWales said:
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%HYUFD said:
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.algarkirk said:Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
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Four in ten Brits (42%) oppose it, based on what they have seen and heard so far, compared to only 19% who are in favour. A further 39% answered “don’t know”.
After a brief bounce in popularity last week, May's deal has slipped -6 points.0 -
Com Res also put Leave (just) ahead and Survation had Leave back to 49%williamglenn said:
Deltapoll is an outlier. Look at the YouGov poll above - there's been a marked swing against Brexit since the deal was published.HYUFD said:
He is right, the Deal comfortably beats Remain or No Deal with Deltapollwilliamglenn said:
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.Theo said:We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
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Theo's ludicrous argument is obviously wrong: Commonwealth citizens can vote in General Elections but EU citizens can't.logical_song said:
What are the latest immigration figures under Mrs May?Theo said:
Whether 45-55 or 55-45, the constituency split of Brexit support massively favours Leave. Remainers have made the running since the referendum because Leavers had thought they had won. Brexit supporters need to make clear Labour are trying to sabotage Brexit by economically blackmailing the country into Remaining. They want mass immigration because the British public won't vote for their far left policies without demographic change.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigrationTOPPING said:
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.HYUFD said:
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega NordBig_G_NorthWales said:
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%HYUFD said:
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.algarkirk said:Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution?
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
29-Nov -2018
"The number of EU citizens moving to the UK has continued to drop, but more people coming from elsewhere means the overall migration rate is unchanged.
Figures show net migration - the difference between how many people came to the UK for at least 12 months and how many left - was 273,000 last year.
EU net migration was 74,000 in the year to the end of June 2018, while non-EU net migration was 248,000.
The ONS said more Asian citizens had been moving to the UK for work."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-463844170 -
The key point here is whether this is verus an incoming alternative of no deal. That changes the dynamic in terms of perception (and reality).kinabalu said:Public vote on big turnout in 2016 to leave the EU.
Pro Remain HoC refuses to implement and asks the public to vote again.
C'mon.
If that is 'democracy' we need to ask the Oxford English to get toiling on a new definition.0 -
My MP, Mrs Anne Main has.RoyalBlue said:
You have to be a special kind of stupid to put your name to that amendment.Tissue_Price said:So this is how TM might win the vote... of course that doesn't mean we then have a Deal.
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/10702994113334763520 -
If the people vote to leave on the terms offered, we go. If they reject the terms, we don't. Extremely democratic.kinabalu said:Public vote on big turnout in 2016 to leave the EU.
Pro Remain HoC refuses to implement and asks the public to vote again.
C'mon.
If that is 'democracy' we need to ask the Oxford English to get toiling on a new definition.0 -
If only those MPs who campaigned for Brexit were voting, the deal would still fall down.kinabalu said:Public vote on big turnout in 2016 to leave the EU.
Pro Remain HoC refuses to implement and asks the public to vote again.0 -
The 39% don't know is unsurprising. The complex nature of this is that even those in the bubble do not knowgrabcocque said:Four in ten Brits (42%) oppose it, based on what they have seen and heard so far, compared to only 19% who are in favour. A further 39% answered “don’t know”.
After a brief bounce in popularity last week, May's deal has slipped -6 points.
If this goes to a referendum I would expect don't knows to fall heavily to remain as easier to understand and safer0 -
But in the final week of the campaign she was not 20 points ahead - more like 5 points with a Hung Parliament being a serious possibility!Nemtynakht said:
If you are trying to say that Labour broke 40% despite people not turning out to vote Labour because of Corbyn I would be very surprised. Corbyn did really well to ride the plucky underdog wagon, and avoid significant scrutiny of the fantasy manifesto. I have said this before on this forum. Elections are often a reaction to the previous election. People were surprised when Cameron got a majority and the polling had Theresa May 20 points ahead. The media reported Corbyn had no chance. As a Labour supporter, even if I didn’t like Corbyn and wanted a hard Brexit, would I personally want to vote for May when she was going to win anyway? I think that saw a swing to Labour.TheJezziah said:
My understanding is that it was actually the opposite although I can't find the surveys which said so after a quick look.Nemtynakht said:AmpfieldAndy said:
Corbyn has focussed his agenda on domestic policy whilst the Gov makes a mess of Brexit so my reading is that his support is more solid. The Tories failed on Brexit and they will feel the wrath of the electorate. The fact that Corbyn is as clueless on domestic policy as he is on Brexit doesn’t seem to matter to Labour voters.Nemtynakht said:
Corbyn asnt exactly prioritised Brexit getting through. Would the backlash not be against him. The Labour Party are at the point where riding two horses is not going to be possibleAmpfieldAndy said:The negotiations couldn’t have been handled any worse by a cackhanded Gov with no idea of what to do next. However,just wait for the backlash if we don’t do Brexit as the economy fails to improve, immigration ramps up again, the EU contributions escalate, and fisheries continue to be dominated by overseas trawlers. Not doing Brexit might well lead to a Corbyn Gov and then the economy will be in huge trouble.
What a bunch of muppets MPs are if “taking back control” is just used to thwart the referendum and continue to allow MPs their cosy lifestyles for simply letting Brussels tell them what to do.
I also think there are a large number of Labour voters who gave him the benefit of the doubt last time, and voted labour thinking he was going to get battered in the election.0 -
-
If the first result is overturned by a second vote then there is nothing undemocratic about it. If we can't change our minds in light of events then we aren't living in much of a democracy in the first place.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.0 -
Isn't there a law of polling that you always assume the "don't knows" will split the same way as the ones that have made their mind up?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The 39% don't know is unsurprising. The complex nature of this is that even those in the bubble do not knowgrabcocque said:Four in ten Brits (42%) oppose it, based on what they have seen and heard so far, compared to only 19% who are in favour. A further 39% answered “don’t know”.
After a brief bounce in popularity last week, May's deal has slipped -6 points.
If this goes to a referendum I would expect don't knows to fall heavily to remain as easier to understand and safer0 -
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.IanB2 said:
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.Richard_Tyndall said:
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.IanB2 said:
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.0 -
He must have been taking lessons from you William.williamglenn said:
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.Theo said:We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
0 -
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.Sean_F said:
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.IanB2 said:
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.CD13 said:Mr B2,
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?0 -
They aren't of course, but were always The only ones who could save it.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes only Remainers are voting against this deal.Theo said:
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.IanB2 said:
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.Richard_Tyndall said:
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.Nigelb said:
Hence the argument for a second referendum.Philip_Thompson said:
Great let them vote for it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core supportPhilip_Thompson said:
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be itPhilip_Thompson said:
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not the point reallyNotch said:
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond himScott_P said:
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.0 -
It's an understandable attitude. What both sides will need, in a future referendum is more clarity. On the Remainer side less Project Fear and on the Leaver side less dishonesty.Richard_Tyndall said:
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.IanB2 said:
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.Richard_Tyndall said:
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.IanB2 said:
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
0 -
Any chance some enterprising film producer will package up this week / next week's Brexit debates into a box set and release on Netflix? Could be a surprise Christmas hit for all of us missing any big updates while feasting on our turkey and stuffing?0
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It’s certainly a sensible line to use to try and whip up outraged support, but ‘Parliament has tried to do what you want, but fears that any real-world way of doing that would only be supported by a minority of the electorate and so wants to check’ is probably more honest.Richard_Tyndall said:
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.IanB2 said:
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.Richard_Tyndall said:
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.IanB2 said:
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.0 -
His position is clear - whatever ensures a labour government. Cynical but effective.Roger said:
Is Corbyn a Leaver or a Remainr? It's the most important issue of the day so don't you think he should make his position clear?bigjohnowls said:
Ridiculous commentRoger said:Corbyn's a clown. Almost as culpable as Cameron Dacre and Murdoch. I'd be surprised if Momentum even stay on board
0 -
Nigel Dodds is reading out choice morsels of Cox's unvarnished truth in Parliament with a righteous fury only a Unionist scorned can muster.0
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Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.williamglenn said:
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration0 -
Exactly. Plus the deal leaves the future relationship undefined and therefore is unsuitable for a referendum. Ditto No Deal, which has different meanings that can't be pinned down to a referendum suitable specific proposition, and in its extreme form is opposed by virtually the whole HoC. Leaving Remain as the only viable candidate for inclusion on the ballot. Ergo a referendum with just one option and furthermore one which has already been rejected by the public. Utter farce. Not happening.Sean_F said:No Deal won't be offered. It would be a choice between Remain, and take a deal we've voted down. Rather like a magician asking you to pick a card, any card.
0 -
RoyalBlue said:
You have to be a special kind of stupid to put your name to that amendment.Tissue_Price said:So this is how TM might win the vote... of course that doesn't mean we then have a Deal.
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/1070299411333476352
Once you the name Andrew Rosidell then I think it's a safe bet that it'll be something stupid0 -
something something somethingOllyT said:RoyalBlue said:
You have to be a special kind of stupid to put your name to that amendment.Tissue_Price said:So this is how TM might win the vote... of course that doesn't mean we then have a Deal.
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/1070299411333476352
Once you the name Andrew Rosidell then I think it's a safe bet that it'll be something stupid
THE QUEEN
something something something
UNION JACK
something something0 -
I just use my Get-out-of-jail-free card and say "I'm Irish. I'm not bothered" which usually gets me a glareIanB2 said:
And thankfully karma is finally delivering the hard Brexiters their just desserts. So often they seem to be the type who starts talking to you on the bus and makes you unusually eager to catch up on your emails and pray that every traffic light turns green.Beverley_C said:
Honour the result? Why? It was obvious from day 1 that Leaving was a worse outcome than Remaining. How exactly am I (or other Remainers) supposed to get enthusiastic about that?notme said:
And we know why many remainers decided instead of trying to honour the result and be part of the process of negotiating our exit from the EU, they spent the time salting the earth and begging the EU to give us a punishment beating.AlastairMeeks said:Leavers at some point will start asking themselves why they made no attempt to forge a consensus. But not yet, I fancy.
If any group has been begging for punishment beatings and salting the Earth it is the more extreme Leavers. As an extreme Remainer I view Brexit as a punishment beating. 0 -
Agreed. Remaining might be least worst outcome, that's a view many might take, but they are behaving like those they condemn In selling a vague overly optimistic scenario. It's why although he is brighter than his counterparts in leave I'm not a fan of grieve - he's a fanatic who will do anything to get what he wants no matter the cost because he sees it as a moral mission.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.Sean_F said:
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.IanB2 said:
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.CD13 said:Mr B2,
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?0 -
No it really isn't. Parliament has a large inbuilt Remain majority and always has had. I am afraid that argument is neither honest nor likely to gain any traction with the public. Even those on the Remain side will recognise what has happened whether they agree with it or not./Polruan said:
It’s certainly a sensible line to use to try and whip up outraged support, but ‘Parliament has tried to do what you want, but fears that any real-world way of doing that would only be supported by a minority of the electorate and so wants to check’ is probably more honest.Richard_Tyndall said:
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.IanB2 said:
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.Richard_Tyndall said:
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.IanB2 said:
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.0 -
The stark decline of Tory morale
See if you can spot Chequers and the Deal.0 -
OTOH, the meme that the UK is a nasty intolerant place for EU citizens may continue to have an effect for years to come. It does not matter if it is true or not, so long as it exists and is believed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.williamglenn said:
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration0 -
What a load of Horlicks, no matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.Richard_Tyndall said:
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.Nigelb said:
Hence the argument for a second referendum.Philip_Thompson said:
Great let them vote for it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core supportPhilip_Thompson said:
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be itPhilip_Thompson said:
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not the point reallyNotch said:
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond himScott_P said:
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum would be about how we implement the (extremely vague) instruction from the first - or if finding both options available (May and no deal) utterly unpalatable, change our minds.0 -
If you think that choosing a door and then having to eat whatever happens to be behind it without any further chance to decide makes any kind of sense, then you really are stupid.Richard_Tyndall said:
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.IanB2 said:
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.Richard_Tyndall said:
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.IanB2 said:
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.0 -
Well Brexit has proved a career-ending disaster for just about every senior politician who got involved with it so if it is reversed I think it will be many years before it reappears as a serious idea. No sensible politician will go near it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.Sean_F said:
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.IanB2 said:
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.CD13 said:Mr B2,
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
Just look at what it has done to Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, May, and, a bit further back, Hague, Major, Clarke, IDS, all victims in one way or another of the Tories Brexit obsession.0 -
I think it is more likely the don't knows won't vote - and turnout is likely to be way down on 2016. It is going to be hard to replicate the enthusiasm and engagement of the original vote when voters were told the Government would implement what they decide. I expect many voters may well think -what's the point because they didn't last time.grabcocque said:
Isn't there a law of polling that you always assume the "don't knows" will split the same way as the ones that have made their mind up?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The 39% don't know is unsurprising. The complex nature of this is that even those in the bubble do not knowgrabcocque said:Four in ten Brits (42%) oppose it, based on what they have seen and heard so far, compared to only 19% who are in favour. A further 39% answered “don’t know”.
After a brief bounce in popularity last week, May's deal has slipped -6 points.
If this goes to a referendum I would expect don't knows to fall heavily to remain as easier to understand and safer
0 -
Of course it matters if it is true or not. It makes addressing the meme very different.Beverley_C said:
OTOH, the meme that the UK is a nasty intolerant place for EU citizens may continue to have an effect for years to come. It does not matter if it is true or not, so long as it exists and is believed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.williamglenn said:
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration0 -
Not happening or you don't want it to happen? Potentially very different things.....!kinabalu said:
Exactly. Plus the deal leaves the future relationship undefined and therefore is unsuitable for a referendum. Ditto No Deal, which has different meanings that can't be pinned down to a referendum suitable specific proposition, and in its extreme form is opposed by virtually the whole HoC. Leaving Remain as the only viable candidate for inclusion on the ballot. Ergo a referendum with just one option and furthermore one which has already been rejected by the public. Utter farce. Not happening.Sean_F said:No Deal won't be offered. It would be a choice between Remain, and take a deal we've voted down. Rather like a magician asking you to pick a card, any card.
0 -
Dear Voters,
Parliament has considered the recent opinion proffered by the electorate that the UK should leave the EU, and regrettably has found that opinion to be rabid, pig-ignorant and stultifyingly ill-informed.
As such, we will not be bringing forward legislation to enact this terrible opinion at this time.
Parliament thanks you for the opportunity to be involved in your poorly thought out opinions, and hopes you will consider us again next time you need somebody to point out when you're being massive idiots.
Kindest Regards,
Parliament0 -
A pro Remain HoC refusing to implement the 1st vote does not makes the democratic case for a 2nd one.OllyT said:If the first result is overturned by a second vote then there is nothing undemocratic about it. If we can't change our minds in light of events then we aren't living in much of a democracy in the first place.
0 -
Perception is more important than fact. Thus Brexitkle4 said:
Of course it matters if it is true or not. It makes addressing the meme very different.Beverley_C said:
OTOH, the meme that the UK is a nasty intolerant place for EU citizens may continue to have an effect for years to come. It does not matter if it is true or not, so long as it exists and is believed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.williamglenn said:
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
0 -
I can’t think of any form of Brexit that clearly has majority support - maybe a super-Norway BINO, because it would probably get the support of a proportion of remain voters, though at the expense of being reviled by a large proportion of Brexit voters. That would seem a bit undemocratic, wouldn’t it?Richard_Tyndall said:
No it really isn't. Parliament has a large inbuilt Remain majority and always has had. I am afraid that argument is neither honest nor likely to gain any traction with the public. Even those on the Remain side will recognise what has happened whether they agree with it or not./Polruan said:
It’s certainly a sensible line to use to try and whip up outraged support, but ‘Parliament has tried to do what you want, but fears that any real-world way of doing that would only be supported by a minority of the electorate and so wants to check’ is probably more honest.Richard_Tyndall said:
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.IanB2 said:
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.Richard_Tyndall said:
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.IanB2 said:
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.0 -
NEW THREAD
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Mr cocque,
" ... hopes you will consider us again next time you need somebody to point out when you're being massive idiots."
Uncomfortably close to the truth in that it exactly what Parliament would be saying. And it thinks we'll sit back and say … 'Yes'm Massa, them damn Yankees, they done burn all de cotton."0 -
Neither side will be willing to provide it (and yes that is an explicit criticism of both campaigns).OldKingCole said:
It's an understandable attitude. What both sides will need, in a future referendum is more clarity. On the Remainer side less Project Fear and on the Leaver side less dishonesty.Richard_Tyndall said:
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.IanB2 said:
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.Richard_Tyndall said:
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.IanB2 said:
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.0 -
I know. But the truth affects how you fight it.Beverley_C said:
Perception is more important than fact. Thus Brexitkle4 said:
Of course it matters if it is true or not. It makes addressing the meme very different.Beverley_C said:
OTOH, the meme that the UK is a nasty intolerant place for EU citizens may continue to have an effect for years to come. It does not matter if it is true or not, so long as it exists and is believed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.williamglenn said:
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.HYUFD said:
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration0 -
@ tottenham
True. I would say that I more dislike the idea of a 2nd ref than I am confident that it will not happen. But I am pretty confident. I really don't see it.0 -
Of course there is. A Remainer Parliament failing to carry out the wishes of the people and then going back and saying you got it wrong vote again is not democracy.OllyT said:
If the first result is overturned by a second vote then there is nothing undemocratic about it. If we can't change our minds in light of events then we aren't living in much of a democracy in the first place.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.0 -
Norway (no plus) might, but it would require a referendum in NI to see if they're happy being jettisoned into eternal Euro-vassalage (probably)
Norway+ could (DUP would support, enough Tory and Labour support could be found even if the leadership were opposed), especially if some big beasts got on board from both sides.0 -
Opinions of Leave voters are I think far more hostile to the EU now than they were two years ago as a consequence of the way the EU has conducted itself. Some may have come around to the view that for now it might be better to stay, given that the UK government's abject approach to negotiation offers only a settlement that amounts to national humiliation. But they do so on sufferance and that means that nothing is settled.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.Sean_F said:
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.IanB2 said:
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.CD13 said:Mr B2,
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
There will be a fourth "Peoples' Vote" in the not too distant future (after 1975, 2016 and no doubt 2019). If the vote is then for Leave and the UK is led by a Government with a working majority and which supports that course resolutely and wholeheartedly, who the EU knows will be willing to walk away from negotiations, then the EU will be in deep trouble.0 -
Rubbish. The House has been opposed to Brexit from the start. This is just the natural conclusion of their plan to derail it.Scott_P said:
They didn't "refuse to implement"kinabalu said:Public vote on big turnout in 2016 to leave the EU.
Pro Remain HoC refuses to implement and asks the public to vote again.
They spent 2 years of blood and treasure and couldn't get it done0 -
It will certainly be career ending for many in Parliament if they fail to deliver.anothernick said:
Well Brexit has proved a career-ending disaster for just about every senior politician who got involved with it so if it is reversed I think it will be many years before it reappears as a serious idea. No sensible politician will go near it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.Sean_F said:
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.IanB2 said:
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.CD13 said:Mr B2,
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
Just look at what it has done to Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, May, and, a bit further back, Hague, Major, Clarke, IDS, all victims in one way or another of the Tories Brexit obsession.0 -
We don't know what is behind it. That again is your delusion.IanB2 said:
If you think that choosing a door and then having to eat whatever happens to be behind it without any further chance to decide makes any kind of sense, then you really are stupid.Richard_Tyndall said:
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.IanB2 said:
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.Richard_Tyndall said:
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.IanB2 said:
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.OllyT said:Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.0 -
GoodRichard_Tyndall said:
Rubbish. The House has been opposed to Brexit from the start. This is just the natural conclusion of their plan to derail it.Scott_P said:
They didn't "refuse to implement"kinabalu said:Public vote on big turnout in 2016 to leave the EU.
Pro Remain HoC refuses to implement and asks the public to vote again.
They spent 2 years of blood and treasure and couldn't get it done0 -
Ah it's Bolthole BeverleyBeverley_C said:
GoodRichard_Tyndall said:
Rubbish. The House has been opposed to Brexit from the start. This is just the natural conclusion of their plan to derail it.Scott_P said:
They didn't "refuse to implement"kinabalu said:Public vote on big turnout in 2016 to leave the EU.
Pro Remain HoC refuses to implement and asks the public to vote again.
They spent 2 years of blood and treasure and couldn't get it done
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'Theo's ludicrous argument is obviously wrong: Commonwealth citizens can vote in General Elections but EU citizens can't.'
Apart from Irish citizens - and of course Maltese and Cypriots who are both. We do perhaps need to look at the franchise again as its quite ridiculous if such rights are not reciprocal. They are with Ireland on an unrestricted basis - but UK nationals cannot vote in general elections in almost every Commonwealth nation so why should their nationals get to vote here.
Frankly only Irish and UK nationals should get to vote in our general elections - as we have reciprocal rights - and arguably only UK nationals should have a vote in national 'constitutional' referendums such as leaving the EU (as Brits cannot vote in Irish constitutional referenda).
As for the immigration stats 'the number of EU citizens coming to the UK is continuing to drop' - yes but they are still coming and there is still a significant net increase year on year. London - or perhaps its just my area - appears to be now increasingly full of young Spaniards, French and increasingly Italians - in addition to eastern European nationals. Just anecdotal from travelling daily around London and observing languages spoken. I rarely heard Italian - now its increasingly common.
Our immigration stats of course exclude short term migrants who indicate they plan to stay for less than one year and are primarily still based on the international passenger survey (i.e. people with a clipboard at airports). They may not tell the whole story - planned temporary residency for work on arrival by young EU nationals may well become permanent but the former aren't counted in the official stats.
Short term migration numbers are very high- but they aren't included in the published population stats as it is assumed they leave - but we don't know if they do as we have no exit controls.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/shortterminternationalmigrationannualreport/yearendingjune20160 -
More unhinged comments from Fox .
MPs stealing Brexit from the people ! Oh bless the poor thing is upset that someone took his toys away!
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Big turnout for the Bush Snr funeral, first time I think all living ex Presidents have been alongside Trump and a slightly awkward handshake between Trump and Obama. Also I think the first time in decades there are more living Democrat presidents, Carter, Clinton and Obama than Republicans, George W Bush and Trump.
John Major and Prince Charles leading the British contingent0
