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I think perhaps William Glenn and Southam Observer are right about May and I've just been naive and too traumatised by the referendum. Perhaps it should have been obvious how far May would go and much damage she would inflict to secure her place in the bottom quartile of PMs rather than the bottom decile.

And no ! I'm not Nicola Sturgeon.

Blair says 'he has a lot of respect for May as a person and her resilience and she is decent'.

However the Deal is the wrong decision for the country

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

SquareRoot said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo/status/1066450063646429185

Bare faced lie.

Take it up with Fabian Picardo!

CarlottaVance said:

SquareRoot said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo/status/1066450063646429185

The capitulation narrative is ridiculous. Sanchez did what he did for domestic, electoral consumption - and he got exactly what he wanted. The significance of the whole thing is that it is a foretaste of what is to come. Now the WA has been signed off and we head to the FTA talks it’s every country for itself. The easy bit has been done!

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

My God I miss Blair's articulacy

He is losing the case for a second referendum minute by minute. He is not self aware

I couldn't agree with you less. He's making me feel that things are so ludicrous a campaign of civil disobedience is likely

That would only make things worse, and strengthen the hand of both dealers and no dealers.

Remain is getting ever closer, it may well even be the most likely outcome in the coming weeks, but talk of civil disobedience fans the flames the wrong way. And don't forget who to think for us remaining - the Brexit ultras themselves, as it is they who will march through the division lobbies to back options which allow it.

SouthamObserver said:

CarlottaVance said:

SquareRoot said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo/status/1066450063646429185

The capitulation narrative is ridiculous. Sanchez did what he did for domestic, electoral consumption - and he got exactly what he wanted. The significance of the whole thing is that it is a foretaste of what is to come. Now the WA has been signed off and we head to the FTA talks it’s every country for itself. The easy bit has been done!

And we'll be ending things at the easy bit. With so many opposed the principle of Brexit, and so many more opposed to picking a direction on Brexit (no, new dealers, the Tory party and Labour party, and country would not suddenly unite around your perfect deal either), there's simply not enough will to keep this up. Roger and willian will get their dearest wish.

YellowSubmarine said:

I think perhaps William Glenn and Southam Observer are right about May and I've just been naive and too traumatised by the referendum. Perhaps it should have been obvious how far May would go and much damage she would inflict to secure her place in the bottom quartile of PMs rather than the bottom decile.

And no ! I'm not Nicola Sturgeon.

Bear in mind that I think her end game is Remain.

Recidivist said:

Benpointer said:

SquareRoot said:

Dura_Ace said:

YellowSubmarine said:

She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.

Have you read the document? Can you itemise these lies?

I must admit I am struggling to find 'lie after lie'. There's a surfeit of vague generalisations for sure, and "out of the common agricultural policy, that has failed our farmers" seems a stretch, but lie after lie...?

The anti-deal brigade need to be careful they cry wolf too loud and often.

I can't find any out and out lies either. Nor any convincing reasons to back her deal. And definitely no new information. A bit of a waste of time, basically.

Yes - I agree with that. It's a bit meh but not the outrageous patchwork of lies some on here are claiming.

Labour will only back a Deal with a permanent Customs Union and protection for workers' rights says Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary.

Refuses to support EUref2 either but still says Labour is 'totally opposed to No Deal' and will try and use amendments and motions to stop it and to reassert parliamentary sovereignty

kle4 said:

Benpointer said:

kle4 said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Dura_Ace said:

YellowSubmarine said:

She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.

The ' letter to the nation ' is the cross over moment for me. At least we all know Boris Johnson is a pound shop Frank Underwood so he is a much less dangerous sociopath than May now is. Her dutiful Head of Geography/Rotary Club Chairwoman schtick gives her cultural access he doesn't have. Harold Shipman was a GP. The psychological state needed to write that ' letter to the nation ' coupled with her residual trust make her very very dangerous. She needs to be terminated imeadiately.

Mps won't support her so she's trying to get public support, the principal is sound. We've heard the letter repeats the lies of the leave campaign, what specifically is she lying shamelessly about? And perhaps dial down the aggression and amateur mental analysis.

"We've heard the letter repeats... ?? Why not read it before commenting?

https://twitter.com/theresa_may/status/1066466567700037632

I will, but until I do I was interested what lies people saw there and mentioned the only general comment about it's contents that had so far been mentioned. I didn't say that comment was right.

Er yes, sorry @kle4 - I was rather guilty of over-reacting myself there. (If I could find the red-faced emoji...)

SouthamObserver said:

Polruan said:

So, taking into account the letter and other information we have seen this morning:

We will have full control over our waters (which we will use to agree reciprocal access, like under the existing arrangements)
There will be no hard border in Ireland and we won’t be under any kind of European court jurisdiction (but only once we’ve found a way to not have a hard border without adopting any rules which are interpreted by European courts, which we’ve made no progress on during 2 years)

The apostrophe in “taxpayer’s” is probably the most offensive part though.

Freedom of movement will end. It will be replaced by movement that is free.
We are leaving the Common Fisheries Policy - we will become part of a fisheries policy that is common.
We are leaving the Common Agricultural Policy - we will become a part of an agricultural policy that is common.

WTF?? Where's your evidence that we will become, for example, part of "an agricultural policy that is common"?

malcolmg said:

Just read her letter and it is indeed a load of bollox, political hogwash and usual "I am doing it all for the people" lies.

Of all the letter's many offensive aspects the notion that we all have to pull together and self-immolate to keep the tory party in one piece is the worst.

CarlottaVance said:

SquareRoot said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo/status/1066450063646429185

The truth*, but not the whole truth, I think.

* With the possible exception of "I will always stand up for Gibraltar." which is something of a throwaway remark.

CarlottaVance said:

I know he's written this before - but evidently it bears repeating:

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1066642429540032512

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1066645289799421952

If ERG had any sense they should bank this and then fight the EU during the transistion on the backstop including a legal challenge.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CarlottaVance said:

I know he's written this before - but evidently it bears repeating:

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1066642429540032512

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1066645289799421952

If ERG had any sense they should bank this and then fight the EU during the transistion on the backstop including a legal challenge.

Well quite. But the ERG's problem is not in Brussels, Belgium, its in the "Brussels" in their head....

Andrew said:

HYUFD said:

Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary says Labour will oppose the Norway option on Marr as Norway is not in the Customs Union which Labour backs, so the Norway option is also dead it seems given the ERG opposes that too

Too many impractical absolutists floating around. They think they can negotiate 3 or 4 years worth in 2 months? And with the EU saying "no more negotiation"?

Yes. The EU are liars, who will also give us whatever we want when they do reopen negotiation. Sensible.

No deal makes more sense.

Andrew said:

HYUFD said:

Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary says Labour will oppose the Norway option on Marr as Norway is not in the Customs Union which Labour backs, so the Norway option is also dead it seems given the ERG opposes that too

Too many impractical absolutists floating around. They think they can negotiate 3 or 4 years worth in 2 months? And with the EU saying "no more negotiation"?

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1066613601497243648

Andrew said:

HYUFD said:

Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary says Labour will oppose the Norway option on Marr as Norway is not in the Customs Union which Labour backs, so the Norway option is also dead it seems given the ERG opposes that too

Too many impractical absolutists floating around. They think they can negotiate 3 or 4 years worth in 2 months? And with the EU saying "no more negotiation"?

Labour thinks as it is caving in more by agreeing a permanent customs union and accepting more employment regulations from the EU it can it seems

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

I think perhaps William Glenn and Southam Observer are right about May and I've just been naive and too traumatised by the referendum. Perhaps it should have been obvious how far May would go and much damage she would inflict to secure her place in the bottom quartile of PMs rather than the bottom decile.

And no ! I'm not Nicola Sturgeon.

Bear in mind that I think her end game is Remain.

I think it always has been. Which is why the blame for this mess lies with the Remainers running the show not Brexit itself.

Leavers had some excellent plan for Brexit that was thwarted by Theresa May?

Was that because they somehow forgot to articulate their excellent plan or because, wilting violets, they thought Theresa May knew best and they shouldn't get involved?

SouthamObserver said:

Xenon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Polruan said:

So, taking into account the letter and other information we have seen this morning:

We will have full control over our waters (which we will use to agree reciprocal access, like under the existing arrangements)
There will be no hard border in Ireland and we won’t be under any kind of European court jurisdiction (but only once we’ve found a way to not have a hard border without adopting any rules which are interpreted by European courts, which we’ve made no progress on during 2 years)

The apostrophe in “taxpayer’s” is probably the most offensive part though.

Freedom of movement will end. It will be replaced by movement that is free.
We are leaving the Common Fisheries Policy - we will become part of a fisheries policy that is common.
We are leaving the Common Agricultural Policy - we will become a part of an agricultural policy that is common.

I know you're joking, but the deal does actually mean we're leaving the CAP right?

The deal says nothing about ending the CAP, FoM and CFP. The accompanying declaration says that the UK will end/leave them, but does not say what will they be replaced with. That will depend on the FTA.

For example see how Compassion in World Farming this weekend are pointing out the Backstop ( not even the FTA ) will stop the UK banning live exports. Banning live exports was a key Leave niche online and leaflet campaign used to target green Lexiters and single issue voters. Spokesperson points out while CWF has no policy on Brexit many members voted for Brexit in the back of the Live Export promise and are contacting them to say they feel betrayed.

HYUFD said:

Andrew said:

HYUFD said:

Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary says Labour will oppose the Norway option on Marr as Norway is not in the Customs Union which Labour backs, so the Norway option is also dead it seems given the ERG opposes that too

Too many impractical absolutists floating around. They think they can negotiate 3 or 4 years worth in 2 months? And with the EU saying "no more negotiation"?

Labour thinks as it is caving in more by agreeing a permanent customs union and accepting more employment regulations from the EU it can it seems

Labour and half the Cabinet, judging from this morning's headlines about Plan B.

malcolmg said:

FF43 said:

CarlottaVance said:

SquareRoot said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo/status/1066450063646429185

The truth*, but not the whole truth, I think.

* With the possible exception of "I will always stand up for Gibraltar." which is something of a throwaway remark.

She has signed it away , using weaselly politician's words to pretend otherwise does not cut it. Dressed up but bare faced lies just the same.

Gibraltar say otherwise.

HYUFD said:

Jeremy Hunt refuses to rule out a second and subsequent votes on the Withdrawal Agreement if it fails on the first vote as he finishes his interview on Marr

Well at least we are at the point where it can be admitted the first vote is going to fail, even if hypothetically.

Have a feeling this won't end well. Am, by nature an optimist. However, the choice now is No Deal or Remain. The ERG have given cover to every remainer in Parliament to stick together for their end goal, in pursuit of their own catastrophic fantasy ambitions.
And, of course, given absolutely no incentive to any opposition MP, such as Nandy, who might be persuadable. Why defy the Party for a Deal which the Tories can't even unite around?
Whichever outcome prevails, it won't be a happy one. And the last thing the country will do is "move on".

CarlottaVance said:

Andrew said:

HYUFD said:

Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary says Labour will oppose the Norway option on Marr as Norway is not in the Customs Union which Labour backs, so the Norway option is also dead it seems given the ERG opposes that too

Too many impractical absolutists floating around. They think they can negotiate 3 or 4 years worth in 2 months? And with the EU saying "no more negotiation"?

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1066613601497243648

Ah, but you see, when May was pressing for things and the EU leaders said no, that was a sign she was being unrealistic and attempting to bully the EU by just saying the same thing over and over. When PM Corbyn/Raab do it, the EU will cave because...because...because the EU want a deal too.

Flippancy aside, it is quite noticeable that even now momentum against the deal is increasing, not decreasing, with one of the few slightly open voices like Nandy coming clearly out against it. It could be one of the biggest government defeats in a long long time.

No matter how much the EU might say no more change, no one believes it. MPs are in too deep to change course now, second vote or not - if they don't believe the EU now, why would they believe them in 2 weeks?

YellowSubmarine said:

SouthamObserver said:

Xenon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Polruan said:

So, taking into account the letter and other information we have seen this morning:

We will have full control over our waters (which we will use to agree reciprocal access, like under the existing arrangements)
There will be no hard border in Ireland and we won’t be under any kind of European court jurisdiction (but only once we’ve found a way to not have a hard border without adopting any rules which are interpreted by European courts, which we’ve made no progress on during 2 years)

The apostrophe in “taxpayer’s” is probably the most offensive part though.

Freedom of movement will end. It will be replaced by movement that is free.
We are leaving the Common Fisheries Policy - we will become part of a fisheries policy that is common.
We are leaving the Common Agricultural Policy - we will become a part of an agricultural policy that is common.

I know you're joking, but the deal does actually mean we're leaving the CAP right?

The deal says nothing about ending the CAP, FoM and CFP. The accompanying declaration says that the UK will end/leave them, but does not say what will they be replaced with. That will depend on the FTA.

For example see how Compassion in World Farming this weekend are pointing out the Backstop ( not even the FTA ) will stop the UK banning live exports. Banning live exports was a key Leave niche online and leaflet campaign used to target green Lexiters and single issue voters. Spokesperson points out while CWF has no policy on Brexit many members voted for Brexit in the back of the Live Export promise and are contacting them to say they feel betrayed.

Green Leavers= grievers?

kle4 said:

malcolmg said:

FF43 said:

CarlottaVance said:

SquareRoot said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo/status/1066450063646429185

The truth*, but not the whole truth, I think.

* With the possible exception of "I will always stand up for Gibraltar." which is something of a throwaway remark.

She has signed it away , using weaselly politician's words to pretend otherwise does not cut it. Dressed up but bare faced lies just the same.

Gibraltar say otherwise.

What do you expect , they can argue all they want , it is only a matter of time now, and does anyone in UK really care about a tax fiddling gambling haven.

Well at least the pompous clown Digby Jones has been shown to be wrong

'....I've got years of negotiating experience...I know how these things work. She'll make changes and they'll accept them because the car dealers in Munich need us. They say they wont but they're just posturing. We're the 5th largest economy in the world. We have clout.'

November 23rd 2018 radio 4

Big_G_NorthWales said:

MarqueeMark said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

I think perhaps William Glenn and Southam Observer are right about May and I've just been naive and too traumatised by the referendum. Perhaps it should have been obvious how far May would go and much damage she would inflict to secure her place in the bottom quartile of PMs rather than the bottom decile.

And no ! I'm not Nicola Sturgeon.

Bear in mind that I think her end game is Remain.

I think it always has been. Which is why the blame for this mess lies with the Remainers running the show not Brexit itself.

I'm coming round to the view that we sign the May deal - but then proceed to go all French on it: ignore the bits that don't suit us. Of course, that means May has to go pronto. And any other Cabinet member that wants to stick slavishly to the text. And we will need a PM with the balls to deliver.

We will still negotiate hard on the Trade Agreement, but as a third party independent of the EU . And we will undertake that trade deal in tandem with others - South Korea for instance wants an accelerated deal.

And we inform them - and the DUP - that we will not honour the back-stop arrangment. So they better get a wiggle on, agreeing that technical solution to the border....

No manager replacing one who has had his team relegated would continue with his failed 5-4-1 system. So no incoming PM should have to live with this - May's Remain ransom note.

I cannot see why ERG do not see this option. I believe TM will go post march and her successor elected in a contest. I would just point out it may not be male as inferred in your post

Having "balls" should not be used to imply any sexual preference on my part for her successor. Just that the shouldn't be a big girl's blouse.....

On topic, the US polling seems to be working pretty well right now (apart from rasmussen lol), so if the polling says it's not close, I'd say it's not close.

Luckyguy1983 said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Calling for somebody to be assasinated on PB is really unacceptable. I can only imagine this has not been challenged because the relevant people haven't been online.

I can only suspect you have misunderstood YS's reference to '22. He means the 1922 committee, not what you think he means.

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

I think perhaps William Glenn and Southam Observer are right about May and I've just been naive and too traumatised by the referendum. Perhaps it should have been obvious how far May would go and much damage she would inflict to secure her place in the bottom quartile of PMs rather than the bottom decile.

And no ! I'm not Nicola Sturgeon.

Bear in mind that I think her end game is Remain.

I think it always has been.

You're both deluded.

FF43 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

I think perhaps William Glenn and Southam Observer are right about May and I've just been naive and too traumatised by the referendum. Perhaps it should have been obvious how far May would go and much damage she would inflict to secure her place in the bottom quartile of PMs rather than the bottom decile.

And no ! I'm not Nicola Sturgeon.

Bear in mind that I think her end game is Remain.

I think it always has been. Which is why the blame for this mess lies with the Remainers running the show not Brexit itself.

Leavers had some excellent plan for Brexit that was thwarted by Theresa May?

Was that because they somehow forgot to articulate their excellent plan or because, wilting violets, they thought Theresa May knew best and they shouldn't get involved?

In case you missed it, and I can understand you have problems processing more than one thought at a time, there have been alternative plans flying around since long before the referendum. Indeed that is one of the complaints that many Reminers - including yourself - have made in the past; that Leave represented too many different possible desired outcomes. But once you put a Remainer in charge who has no basic understanding of what drove the Leave vote and who fundamentally disagrees with it anyway, the result was always going to be sub-optimal.

Junckers to HOC.

This is the best deal possible for UK and the EU and only deal possible

Richard_Tyndall said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Calling for somebody to be assasinated on PB is really unacceptable. I can only imagine this has not been challenged because the relevant people haven't been online.

I can only suspect you have misunderstood YS's reference to '22. He means the 1922 committee, not what you think he means.

Was he not meaning the "deep state" reference............

felix said:

SouthamObserver said:

CarlottaVance said:

SquareRoot said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo/status/1066450063646429185

The capitulation narrative is ridiculous. Sanchez did what he did for domestic, electoral consumption - and he got exactly what he wanted. The significance of the whole thing is that it is a foretaste of what is to come. Now the WA has been signed off and we head to the FTA talks it’s every country for itself. The easy bit has been done!

Ironically Sanchez is being criticised in Spain today for achieving nothing. PSOE will be the largest party in the Andalucian election next month with fewer seats and votes than last time and no overall majority. All very silly.

PSOE is in danger of getting its worst-ever result in Andalucia. The headlines I’ve seen in the Spanish papers this morning have been largely positive for Sanchez, though as you’d expect he has been attacked by PP and Cs. If PSOE gets over 30% next Sunday it’ll be job done.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Junckers to HOC.

This is the best deal possible for UK and the EU and only deal possible

Easy to say when you have won an outright victory, bit harder for May to sell.

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Junckers to HOC.

This is the best deal possible for UK and the EU and only deal possible

Easy to say when you have won an outright victory, bit harder for May to sell.

The EU are uncompromising this morning. This is the deal

felix said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

malcolmg said:

FF43 said:

CarlottaVance said:

SquareRoot said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo/status/1066450063646429185

The truth*, but not the whole truth, I think.

* With the possible exception of "I will always stand up for Gibraltar." which is something of a throwaway remark.

She has signed it away , using weaselly politician's words to pretend otherwise does not cut it. Dressed up but bare faced lies just the same.

Gibraltar say otherwise.

What do you expect , they can argue all they want , it is only a matter of time now, and does anyone in UK really care about a tax fiddling gambling haven.

Britain probably doesn't but it is in Spain's interest to keep it going. 12000 Spaniards got to wrok there every day in an area where unemployment levels approach 40%+ already. Ask the Mayor of La Linea.

Britain could at least then ban overseas betting sites rather than the toffs making money out of the misery they cause.

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

I think perhaps William Glenn and Southam Observer are right about May and I've just been naive and too traumatised by the referendum. Perhaps it should have been obvious how far May would go and much damage she would inflict to secure her place in the bottom quartile of PMs rather than the bottom decile.

And no ! I'm not Nicola Sturgeon.

Bear in mind that I think her end game is Remain.

I think it always has been.

You're both deluded.

And yet here we are. With that as a very real possibility.

felix said:

SouthamObserver said:

CarlottaVance said:

SquareRoot said:

YellowSubmarine said:

All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

https://twitter.com/FabianPicardo/status/1066450063646429185

The capitulation narrative is ridiculous. Sanchez did what he did for domestic, electoral consumption - and he got exactly what he wanted. The significance of the whole thing is that it is a foretaste of what is to come. Now the WA has been signed off and we head to the FTA talks it’s every country for itself. The easy bit has been done!

Ironically Sanchez is being criticised in Spain today for achieving nothing. PSOE will be the largest party in the Andalucian election next month with fewer seats and votes than last time and no overall majority. All very silly.

Looks like Sanchez position is unravelling faster than a Gordon Brown budget

Richard_Tyndall said:

SouthamObserver said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

SouthamObserver said:

The deal says nothing about ending the CAP, FoM and CFP. The accompanying declaration says that the UK will end/leave them, but does not say what will they be replaced with. That will depend on the FTA.

Sorry SO but this is either wishful thinking or wilful misdirection on your part. We leave the CAP, FoM and CFP at the end of the transition period. You might speculate on what will replace them but that is entirely a matter for negotiation from scratch. There is no pre set or pre defined rule about how we have to proceed on those matters as you should know. If, by the time we reach the negotiation stage, we have a new PM, then it will be their views which define what our stance is. If it is Ken Clark then it will be as identical as possible to what we have now. If it is JRM it will not. And every range imbetween.

It’s true I am assuming a deal will be done that is designed to minimise the economic harm the UK suffers. I do concede that is not a given.

What you ned to concede is that you were wrong to claim that we are not leaving the CAP, FoM and CFP. That was simply untrue.

I did not say that, though.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Junckers to HOC.

This is the best deal possible for UK and the EU and only deal possible

And the HoC for two opposing reasons will not agree the deal as it leaves us worse off than we are now. "Then we'll crash out with no deal" remains the threat. And for that to happen it means that the UK government has to sit there and actively plan to collapse our economy. For our MPs to sit there doing nothing knowing the consequences. For the machinery of government to operate as the German government did at the end of April 1945.

We won't agree the deal. And we won't crash out because the MPs and the Government and the Civil Service aren't batshit crazy.

It doesn't matter any longer what "the people" think because what they voted for has transpired to be an illusion. We aren't going to allow ourselves to be smashed onto the rocks because of "will of the people" - and that will would be brought into focus very quickly if we did and the consequences bring ruin to them.

We aren't leaving on 29th March.

If deal does go through - Conservatives only and immediate concern will be staying in power which requires DUP support.

That surely implies May would have to go and that winner of contest will be someone who is DUP friendly - ie Johnson or somebody who says what Johnson said yesterday.

Luckyguy1983 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

I can only suspect you have misunderstood YS's reference to '22. He means the 1922 committee, not what you think he means.

No, he refers to the 1922 committee seperately. The deep state reference and it's following passage are what I am referring to.

But even so, there is no possible interpretation of our brightly coloured underwater friend's post that reads that he is calling for the Prime Minister to be literally assassinated.

A country split down the middle.
https://twitter.com/europeelects/status/1066657559082409986?s=21