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The Fukishima disaster made the whole of industry that had global supply chains wake up. In Fukishima there was the only factory worldwide that made the metallic for metallic paint for the car industry. It suddenly became unavailable. Supply chains from then on became multi supplier and closer to home and in multiple diverse locations.Richard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.0 -
Reminds me of the Threads film of the 1980s, which of course was a full nuclear war not a one off attack. The regrettable thing is the 'deranged actor' whether state or terrorist network only have to be lucky once for them to induce mayhem.Richard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.0 -
Or just move to Europe and the problem is solve and we lose tens of thousands of jobsRichard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.0 -
Or just move to Europe and the problem is solve and we lose tens of thousands of jobsRichard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.0 -
They may believe it but a lot of it is still fake.alex. said:
I wish it were them "resorting to fake news". At least then there is the scope for them to self examine whether they are quite on the right course. I think a lot of them genuinely believe what they are saying....Benpointer said:alex. said:
It is still 2020. This clause is about a single potential one off extension to the transition period IF THE UK GOVT REQUESTS IT. The ERG are incapable of understanding that this is nothing to do with the EU "trapping us in" for as long as possible but something that we THE UK REQUESTED to ease our transition to new arrangements. In fact we will have to pay for it.MarqueeMark said:
Wasn't it always 2020 - just with part Roman numerals to show how, you know, they are integrating bits of other Euro-culture.....notme said:
The XX was only ever there because it was a draft not because it was going to be open ended.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just read that the option for a one off extension to the transition period shown in the draft treaty has now been changed from 20XX to 2022. Significant move
EDIT: sorry 2021 (for the default on the transition period end).
Indeed. That the Hard Brexiteers have had to resort to fake news shows they are rattled.
I suspect May's deal (or something very much like it) will get past the HoC in the next month.0 -
At least we might prepare a bit better for the second cliff edge.YellowSubmarine said:December '22 is still very tight indeed. It suggests End State is agreed and ratified in 3 years 9 months after we leave. It creates another cliff edge giving power to the EU as the Transition can only be extended once. It's Barnier quite reasonably upping the ante. He's saying to the ERG " If you reopen this so we will we. "
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Where are your case studies?Big_G_NorthWales said:
With respect you are looking rather ill informed on a vital matter to our car and aerospace industryralphmalph said:
So having lost the argument completely all you have now is being a grammar police person.Benpointer said:
"... from there... "ralphmalph said:
There are no proof points in any of your links about JIT from European suppliers.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
They could be using a system of continental suppliers keeping stock in a UK warehouse which is then sent from their to meet the JIT timescale.0 -
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
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Both Ben and I have provided the google links for you. It is for you to read them if you wishralphmalph said:
Why can you not provide the case studies proof points for your argument?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are demonstrating the utter lack of knowledge so evident in ERGralphmalph said:
There are no proof points in any of your links about JIT from European suppliers.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
They could be using a system of continental suppliers keeping stock in a UK warehouse which is then sent from their to meet the JIT timescale.
I am not making any futher comments. Like Ben I do not like hitting my head against a brick wall0 -
Both Ben and I have provided the google links for you. It is for you to read them if you wishralphmalph said:
Why can you not provide the case studies proof points for your argument?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are demonstrating the utter lack of knowledge so evident in ERGralphmalph said:
There are no proof points in any of your links about JIT from European suppliers.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
They could be using a system of continental suppliers keeping stock in a UK warehouse which is then sent from their to meet the JIT timescale.
I am not making any futher comments. Like Ben I do not like hitting my head against a brick wall0 -
I doubt it, however I do find this horror that keeps being expressed at EU rules for things applying during transition to be a very poor sign, since a lot of it seems to be an argument against there being a transition period at all, and I know we jest about how people should have acted sooner, but that there would be a transition period has been obvious for a very long time, surely, and if that is a deal breaker why would people have waited until the end. You cannot tweak the existence of that.Benpointer said:alex. said:
It is still 2020. This clause is about a single potential one off extension to the transition period IF THE UK GOVT REQUESTS IT. The ERG are incapable of understanding that this is nothing to do with the EU "trapping us in" for as long as possible but something that we THE UK REQUESTED to ease our transition to new arrangements. In fact we will have to pay for it.MarqueeMark said:
Wasn't it always 2020 - just with part Roman numerals to show how, you know, they are integrating bits of other Euro-culture.....notme said:
The XX was only ever there because it was a draft not because it was going to be open ended.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just read that the option for a one off extension to the transition period shown in the draft treaty has now been changed from 20XX to 2022. Significant move
EDIT: sorry 2021 (for the default on the transition period end).
Indeed. That the Hard Brexiteers have had to resort to fake news shows they are rattled.
I suspect May's deal (or something very much like it) will get past the HoC in the next month.0 -
That's a fair point. But politically a no no. The referendum result would have been discharged. If we didn't feel able to jump 9ff the cliff 2 years 9 months after the referendum we won't do it 5 years 6 months later with the mandate gone.alex. said:
At least we might prepare a bit better for the second cliff edge.YellowSubmarine said:December '22 is still very tight indeed. It suggests End State is agreed and ratified in 3 years 9 months after we leave. It creates another cliff edge giving power to the EU as the Transition can only be extended once. It's Barnier quite reasonably upping the ante. He's saying to the ERG " If you reopen this so we will we. "
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After Brexit the fluffing industry can rise again, and indeed help others to rise.FrancisUrquhart said:What no thread on the demise of fluffers....
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I think that's a very good point Richard. It will probably take such an event to force a re-evaluation of this global JIT model.Richard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.
However, any such black swan event would probably impact globally, whereas we are in danger of unnecessarily self-inflicting something very similar on ourselves alone (well, with some impact on the EU too).0 -
Yes it's one reason why some of the concerns about No deal are probably a little bit overblown, in the sense that it will be short term disruption caused by bad planning and/or lack of capacity, not a permanent problem. Businesses will always pursue the cheapest and most efficient options to operate, but this always creates the danger that they don't build in sufficient risk contingency. Every so often a major event reveals the weaknesses in their planning and big changes happen to make sure it doesn't happen again.ralphmalph said:
The Fukishima disaster made the whole of industry that had global supply chains wake up. In Fukishima there was the only factory worldwide that made the metallic for metallic paint for the car industry. It suddenly became unavailable. Supply chains from then on became multi supplier and closer to home and in multiple diverse locations.Richard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.0 -
The result is only discharged by leaving the EU. For all intents and purposes we would be EU members during the course of the transition, even the withdrawal agreement says that.YellowSubmarine said:
That's a fair point. But politically a no no. The referendum result would have been discharged. If we didn't feel able to jump 9ff the cliff 2 years 9 months after the referendum we won't do it 5 years 6 months later with the mandate gone.alex. said:
At least we might prepare a bit better for the second cliff edge.YellowSubmarine said:December '22 is still very tight indeed. It suggests End State is agreed and ratified in 3 years 9 months after we leave. It creates another cliff edge giving power to the EU as the Transition can only be extended once. It's Barnier quite reasonably upping the ante. He's saying to the ERG " If you reopen this so we will we. "
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Not on this occassion. The first thing Corbyn said today was that he did not accept rstriction on state aid in the agreement. It is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter0 -
Of course if the Status Quo Transition lasts til December 2022 then that year's General Election becomes a Brexit election. Absolutely everything it anything can be overridden via party manifesto. A People's Vote to coin a phrase.0
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Good for you for being logically consistent, and welcome back. Must say I had forgotten you argued in such a way. You are, though, something of a lone voice.Richard_Tyndall said:
Um. I am a big fan of devolution - and of course of Scottish Independence. I always get flak on here for pointing out I believe it is illogical to be a Brexiteer for reasons of self determination and yet oppose Scottish Independence. I would be delighted to see real powers devolved to counties and districts but I am always told this is impossible because all local councillors are so corrupt and in hoc to vested interests.dixiedean said:
In which case, we should move to greater devolution. Dismantling our Over-centralisation of powers, coupled with a radical updating of our (unwritten) Constitution is one possible side benefit of Brexit.
One which is never made by its proponents, AFAIK.
I exaggerate of course but that is an argument I hear time and time again.
I would love Brexit to be just the first step in a reformation of our systems of governance.
As a Remainer, one thing that stands out from this sorry saga,is that the standard of governance, and debate in this country is piss poor on all sides.
A Brexit which involved such a reformation would at least be something. If local councillors really are corrupt, then that could be looked at too.
Brexit provides such a window of opportunity. But vanishingly few of its proponents want to look through it.0 -
There is undoubtedly a plot to force a disruptive Hard Brexit. The cynic in me suspects those on both the extreme right and left are trying to engineer it to suit their own (separate) nefarious undemocratic ends.kle4 said:
I doubt it, however I do find this horror that keeps being expressed at EU rules for things applying during transition to be a very poor sign, since a lot of it seems to be an argument against there being a transition period at all, and I know we jest about how people should have acted sooner, but that there would be a transition period has been obvious for a very long time, surely, and if that is a deal breaker why would people have waited until the end. You cannot tweak the existence of that.Benpointer said:alex. said:
It is still 2020. This clause is about a single potential one off extension to the transition period IF THE UK GOVT REQUESTS IT. The ERG are incapable of understanding that this is nothing to do with the EU "trapping us in" for as long as possible but something that we THE UK REQUESTED to ease our transition to new arrangements. In fact we will have to pay for it.MarqueeMark said:
Wasn't it always 2020 - just with part Roman numerals to show how, you know, they are integrating bits of other Euro-culture.....notme said:
The XX was only ever there because it was a draft not because it was going to be open ended.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just read that the option for a one off extension to the transition period shown in the draft treaty has now been changed from 20XX to 2022. Significant move
EDIT: sorry 2021 (for the default on the transition period end).
Indeed. That the Hard Brexiteers have had to resort to fake news shows they are rattled.
I suspect May's deal (or something very much like it) will get past the HoC in the next month.0 -
Telegraph not impressed with Labours attempts to be all things to all menBig_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing Corbyn said today was that he did not accept rstriction on state aid in the agreement. It is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/11/18/labours-confused-contradictory-brexit-policy-bewildering-irresponsible/
Bewildering - is the least of it.0 -
Mind you, without a Status Quo Transition the country would just be going down down deeper and down.YellowSubmarine said:Of course if the Status Quo Transition lasts til December 2022 then that year's General Election becomes a Brexit election. Absolutely everything it anything can be overridden via party manifesto. A People's Vote to coin a phrase.
0 -
Um, no it isn't. I believe in self determination for the Scots, I would just prefer it if they self determined to remain in this union even if we leave another union. One doesn't have to believe in total independence from any other body if you believe in self determination. Self evidently you do not, since the SNP strongly support being in the EU union even as they do not wish to be in the UK union. Do they not believe in self determination, or a strong, independent scottish nation? Of course they do.Richard_Tyndall said:
Um. I am a big fan of devolution - and of course of Scottish Independence. I always get flak on here for pointing out I believe it is illogical to be a Brexiteer for reasons of self determination and yet oppose Scottish Independence.dixiedean said:
In which case, we should move to greater devolution. Dismantling our Over-centralisation of powers, coupled with a radical updating of our (unwritten) Constitution is one possible side benefit of Brexit.
One which is never made by its proponents, AFAIK.0 -
Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.
0 -
McDonnell will say whatever he needs to get power.TheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
There is a reason why people say he is more dangerous than Jezbollah0 -
It'll be fine, we'll get whatever we want once we can figure out what to tell the EU about what we're proposing.Benpointer said:
Mind you, without a Status Quo Transition the country would just be going down down deeper and down.YellowSubmarine said:Of course if the Status Quo Transition lasts til December 2022 then that year's General Election becomes a Brexit election. Absolutely everything it anything can be overridden via party manifesto. A People's Vote to coin a phrase.
0 -
Think tomorrow is THE day.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.
If they don't get 48 letters tomorrow ERG is indeed all piss and wind!
We shall see....0 -
Corbyn will go along with it, not least because the members want it. His famous rigidity has not been much in evidence in pushing for what is his, supposed, preference when it comes to the EU, he has allowed a complete free hand. After years as leader he has changed by necessity due to the role, and are we to believe he would not do something the party as a whole wanted at the potential cost of gaining power, even if it limited his options later a bit more than he would like? I don't buy it.Floater said:
McDonnell will say whatever he needs to get power.TheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
There is a reason why people say he is more dangerous than Jezbollah
What would be a bit weird is if the deal (somehow) passed, then because that destroys the Tories' majority, we can an election which Labour win before or shortly after we enter the transition.0 -
So long as we don't keep changing our minds again and again.kle4 said:
It'll be fine, we'll get whatever we want once we can figure out what to tell the EU about what we're proposing.Benpointer said:
Mind you, without a Status Quo Transition the country would just be going down down deeper and down.YellowSubmarine said:Of course if the Status Quo Transition lasts til December 2022 then that year's General Election becomes a Brexit election. Absolutely everything it anything can be overridden via party manifesto. A People's Vote to coin a phrase.
0 -
ralphmalph said:Richard_Tyndall said:
I did not know that - what was the disruption like? (Benpointer said:
The Fukishima disaster made the whole of industry that had global supply chains wake up. In Fukishima there was the only factory worldwide that made the metallic for metallic paint for the car industry. It suddenly became unavailable. Supply chains from then on became multi supplier and closer to home and in multiple diverse locations.ralphmalph said:
SNIP SNIPBenpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.0 -
Dec 2022 is also after the next election, ensuring that that GE takes place in a febrile atmosphere much like the present.YellowSubmarine said:December '22 is still very tight indeed. It suggests End State is agreed and ratified in 3 years 9 months after we leave. It creates another cliff edge giving power to the EU as the Transition can only be extended once. It's Barnier quite reasonably upping the ante. He's saying to the ERG " If you reopen this so we will we. "
Unless the government collapses first, of course.0 -
Telegraph not impressed with Labour. In other news, night will follow day tomorrow.Floater said:
Telegraph not impressed with Labours attempts to be all things to all menBig_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing Corbyn said today was that he did not accept rstriction on state aid in the agreement. It is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/11/18/labours-confused-contradictory-brexit-policy-bewildering-irresponsible/
Bewildering - is the least of it.
0 -
Some things will remain the same, never fear, after all we'll still be *checks Status Quo discography* living on an island.Benpointer said:
So long as we don;t keep changing our minds again and again.kle4 said:
It'll be fine, we'll get whatever we want once we can figure out what to tell the EU about what we're proposing.Benpointer said:
Mind you, without a Status Quo Transition the country would just be going down down deeper and down.YellowSubmarine said:Of course if the Status Quo Transition lasts til December 2022 then that year's General Election becomes a Brexit election. Absolutely everything it anything can be overridden via party manifesto. A People's Vote to coin a phrase.
0 -
My guess is Baker and Mogg have been led up the garden path by MPs who talk a good rebellion in the Red Lion after 4 pints, but don't actually write any letters.GIN1138 said:
Think tomorrow is THE day.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.
If they don't get 48 letters tomorrow ERG is indeed all piss and wind!
We shall see....
We shall see tomorrow.0 -
Depends what time and day Brady checks his pigeonhole.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.0 -
You win again!kle4 said:
Some things will remain the same, never fear, after all we'll still be *checks Status Quo discography* living on an island.Benpointer said:
So long as we don;t keep changing our minds again and again.kle4 said:
It'll be fine, we'll get whatever we want once we can figure out what to tell the EU about what we're proposing.Benpointer said:
Mind you, without a Status Quo Transition the country would just be going down down deeper and down.YellowSubmarine said:Of course if the Status Quo Transition lasts til December 2022 then that year's General Election becomes a Brexit election. Absolutely everything it anything can be overridden via party manifesto. A People's Vote to coin a phrase.
(Oops sorry wrong band)0 -
Of course Transition till December 2022 begins to lay out a credible path to ' Remaining '. The End State is fornally rejoining the EU after having never really left via Transition. The referendum ' discharged ' and the Brexsh*ters worn down by counter mobilisation, demographic shifts, a popular bored of the topic, the experience of Taxation without Representation euro purgatory and crucially that rejoining would be a protest vote against the government and the rotten elites failure of statecraft. The same force that drive the Leave vote.0
-
Be funny if Brady's off on holiday for a weekFoxy said:
Depends what time and day Brady checks his pigeonhole.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.
0 -
And, though I wish him well, it is flu season, he might get laid up with something.Benpointer said:
Be funny if Brady's off on holiday for a weekFoxy said:
Depends what time and day Brady checks his pigeonhole.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.0 -
-
Well, I can understand you might not want to listen to the TelegraphBenpointer said:
Telegraph not impressed with Labour. In other news, night will follow day tomorrow.Floater said:
Telegraph not impressed with Labours attempts to be all things to all menBig_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing Corbyn said today was that he did not accept rstriction on state aid in the agreement. It is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/11/18/labours-confused-contradictory-brexit-policy-bewildering-irresponsible/
Bewildering - is the least of it.
That's why it was so helpful for one of your own shadow ministers to describe your position as "bollocks"
0 -
But if Fukushima had the only supplier, then all the manufacturers relying on it worldwide were in the same situation. A hard Brexit is going to disproportionally affect British industry by disrupting its supply chains.ralphmalph said:
The Fukishima disaster made the whole of industry that had global supply chains wake up. In Fukishima there was the only factory worldwide that made the metallic for metallic paint for the car industry. It suddenly became unavailable. Supply chains from then on became multi supplier and closer to home and in multiple diverse locations.Richard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.0 -
"a bit"kle4 said:
Corbyn will go along with it, not least because the members want it. His famous rigidity has not been much in evidence in pushing for what is his, supposed, preference when it comes to the EU, he has allowed a complete free hand. After years as leader he has changed by necessity due to the role, and are we to believe he would not do something the party as a whole wanted at the potential cost of gaining power, even if it limited his options later a bit more than he would like? I don't buy it.Floater said:
McDonnell will say whatever he needs to get power.TheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
There is a reason why people say he is more dangerous than Jezbollah
What would be a bit weird is if the deal (somehow) passed, then because that destroys the Tories' majority, we can an election which Labour win before or shortly after we enter the transition.
LOL0 -
Uh, if 17 were given in private why the heck was Baker spouting such nonsense about being sure of being over?Scott_P said:0 -
Foxy said:
Depends what time and day Brady checks his pigeonhole.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.
One paper this morning mentioned letters being pushed under Brady's office door!0 -
Next Tory leader is split fairly evenly between Raab, Javid, Johnson and Gove on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1255749630 -
Again, it won't be discharged until the UK actually leaves.YellowSubmarine said:Of course Transition till December 2022 begins to lay out a credible path to ' Remaining '. The End State is fornally rejoining the EU after having never really left via Transition. The referendum ' discharged ' and the Brexsh*ters worn down by counter mobilisation, demographic shifts, a popular bored of the topic, the experience of Taxation without Representation euro purgatory and crucially that rejoining would be a protest vote against the government and the rotten elites failure of statecraft. The same force that drive the Leave vote.
0 -
Publicly?Floater said:
Well, I can understand you might not want to listen to the TelegraphBenpointer said:
Telegraph not impressed with Labour. In other news, night will follow day tomorrow.Floater said:
Telegraph not impressed with Labours attempts to be all things to all menBig_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing Corbyn said today was that he did not accept rstriction on state aid in the agreement. It is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/11/18/labours-confused-contradictory-brexit-policy-bewildering-irresponsible/
Bewildering - is the least of it.
That's why it was so helpful for one of your own shadow ministers to describe your position as "bollocks"
Besides, ministers and shadow ministers are free to do what they want now, we are assured leader statements even if officially (albeit not enthusiastically) backed by their Cabinet it does not count as policy.0 -
There are two ways of reading Graham Brady's comments today. One is that they are nowhere near 48. The other is they are near 48 and he knows they will reach 48.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.
It comes down to how you interpret his extraordinary intervention saying that he himself wouldn't submit a letter and doesn't think a challenge will help.
Why would a '22 Chairman taking the extraordinary step of publicly arguing against a challenge if he knows, and by definition he really would know, one isn't coming ?
0 -
Then why is McDonnell (who you specifically mentioned) warming to the idea and even using the phrase peoples vote...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing Corbyn said today was that he did not accept rstriction on state aid in the agreement. It is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
State aid rules doesn't even really affect the previous manifesto, plenty of nationally owned rail companies on the continent.
It is however one of the advantages of Brexit to Corbyn's mind, his criticism of a lack of one of the advantages in the deal doesn't necessarily imply that he wants Brexit at all costs. It doesn't really fit with allowed the shadow chancellor to make his recent comments and going along with the motions at conference.
When he genuinely disagreed with the direction of Labour he made it perfectly clear, like with Trident, despite going along with it. Nobody thinks Corbyn has suddenly had a change of mind because he made his own views clear whilst accepting the direction the party had set.0 -
It seems the cake lovers are six unicorns short of the take-over plan.
0 -
"something as minor as Brexit"Richard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.
joker0 -
-
Night all.
0 -
I don't think you can read anything into his comments to be honest.YellowSubmarine said:
There are two ways of reading Graham Brady's comments today. One is that they are nowhere near 48. The other is they are near 48 and he knows they will reach 48.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.
It comes down to how you interpret his extraordinary intervention saying that he himself wouldn't submit a letter and doesn't think a challenge will help.
Why would a '22 Chairman taking the extraordinary step of publicly arguing against a challenge if he knows, and by definition he really would know, one isn't coming ?0 -
My good lady and I were struck down with a respiratory infection six weeks ago and still have not recovered. I hope Graham Brady doesn't follow our examplekle4 said:
And, though I wish him well, it is flu season, he might get laid up with something.Benpointer said:
Be funny if Brady's off on holiday for a weekFoxy said:
Depends what time and day Brady checks his pigeonhole.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.0 -
This demonstrates the one small way in which you've already lost. The referendum result is now an abstract painting. We can all look at it and decide it means exactly want we want and be entirely right.RobD said:
Again, it won't be discharged until the UK actually leaves.YellowSubmarine said:Of course Transition till December 2022 begins to lay out a credible path to ' Remaining '. The End State is fornally rejoining the EU after having never really left via Transition. The referendum ' discharged ' and the Brexsh*ters worn down by counter mobilisation, demographic shifts, a popular bored of the topic, the experience of Taxation without Representation euro purgatory and crucially that rejoining would be a protest vote against the government and the rotten elites failure of statecraft. The same force that drive the Leave vote.
0 -
I'd have given Raab a reason able chance but making his pitch that he is easily fooled does not sound great. But then again Javid and Gove would be stupid picks given they ostensibly support the deal May is getting binned for (even if Gove is playing both sides and Javid is hiding). Obviously Boris is usually a lay, so, hmm, the position is unclear to me. Hunt's in the same bind as Javid, although he made a good conference speech I don't know enough about Cox to know why he would appeal en masse to the MPs.AndyJS said:Next Tory leader is split fairly evenly between Raab, Javid, Johnson and Gove on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1255749630 -
"Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive!"rottenborough said:0 -
It really isn't. The result was to leave the EU.YellowSubmarine said:
This demonstrates the one small way in which you've already lost. The referendum result is now an abstract painting. We can all look at it and decide it means exactly want we want and be entirely right.RobD said:
Again, it won't be discharged until the UK actually leaves.YellowSubmarine said:Of course Transition till December 2022 begins to lay out a credible path to ' Remaining '. The End State is fornally rejoining the EU after having never really left via Transition. The referendum ' discharged ' and the Brexsh*ters worn down by counter mobilisation, demographic shifts, a popular bored of the topic, the experience of Taxation without Representation euro purgatory and crucially that rejoining would be a protest vote against the government and the rotten elites failure of statecraft. The same force that drive the Leave vote.
0 -
Cox gave a good speech at conference but I just don't seem him as a serious leadership contender.kle4 said:
I'd have given Raab a reason able chance but making his pitch that he is easily fooled does not sound great. But then again Javid and Gove would be stupid picks given they ostensibly support the deal May is getting binned for (even if Gove is playing both sides and Javid is hiding). Obviously Boris is usually a lay, so, hmm, the position is unclear to me. Hunt's in the same bind as Javid, although he made a good conference speech I don't know enough about Cox to know why he would appeal en masse to the MPs.AndyJS said:Next Tory leader is split fairly evenly between Raab, Javid, Johnson and Gove on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1255749630 -
The 18 anti referendum labour mps were named tonight and the same source expected Corbyn and McDonnell to follow suitTheJezziah said:
Then why is McDonnell (who you specifically mentioned) warming to the idea and even using the phrase peoples vote...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing Corbyn said today was that he did not accept rstriction on state aid in the agreement. It is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 .Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
State aid rules doesn't even really affect the previous manifesto, plenty of nationally owned rail companies on the continent.
It is however one of the advantages of Brexit to Corbyn's mind, his criticism of a lack of one of the advantages in the deal doesn't necessarily imply that he wants Brexit at all costs. It doesn't really fit with allowed the shadow chancellor to make his recent comments and going along with the motions at conference.
When he genuinely disagreed with the direction of Labour he made it perfectly clear, like with Trident, despite going along with it. Nobody thinks Corbyn has suddenly had a change of mind because he made his own views clear whilst accepting the direction the party had set.
However, even if they didn't those 18 labour votes would kill of the second referendum. It would not pass0 -
Given Jezza hasn't even read the deal (and unlikely with his pea sized brain to understand it), he relies on others to explain what it means....can anybody see a problem with that when it comes to his famous rigidity...kle4 said:
Corbyn will go along with it, not least because the members want it. His famous rigidity has not been much in evidence in pushing for what is his, supposed, preference when it comes to the EU, he has allowed a complete free hand. After years as leader he has changed by necessity due to the role, and are we to believe he would not do something the party as a whole wanted at the potential cost of gaining power, even if it limited his options later a bit more than he would like? I don't buy it.Floater said:
McDonnell will say whatever he needs to get power.TheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next general election. The trade deal might not be completed by the time of the next election (and on track record won't be) so it could be changed by the incoming party at the GE - indeed could be a key determinant of that election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
There is a reason why people say he is more dangerous than Jezbollah
What would be a bit weird is if the deal (somehow) passed, then because that destroys the Tories' majority, we can an election which Labour win before or shortly after we enter the transition.
0 -
Looking up facts on Geoffrey Cox I see that a predecessor in his seat switched to the LDs in 95, was a LD MEP for 10 years, but rejoined the Tories shortly after May took the helm. Always fun to find the little stories out there.0
-
I feel you really don’t understand the creeping liberalisation of rail services across the continent. When state aid is offered it is offered for a service that has to be competitively tendered. This doesn’t stop state owned companies from running railways. But it stops you insisting it’s your state owned company that does it.TheJezziah said:
Then why is McDonnell (who you specifically mentioned) warming to the idea and even using the phrase peoples vote...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next generalBig_G_NorthWales said:
Stewart Jackson holding hands in horror apparently saying Barnier will keep us in the EU until 2022. Last night ERG were saying forever.Andrew said:
That's because the ERG are, by and large, a bit unhinged. It was just a last little niggling detail whether it would be 2 or 3 years.Big_G_NorthWales said:
ERG were making much about it going on until 2099
To be fair it is only 12 months later
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
State aid rules doesn't even really affect the previous manifesto, plenty of nationally owned rail companies on the continent.
It is however one of the advantages of Brexit to Corbyn's mind, his criticism of a lack of one of the advantages in the deal doesn't necessarily imply that he wants Brexit at all costs. It doesn't really fit with allowed the shadow chancellor to make his recent comments and going along with the motions at conference.
When he genuinely disagreed with the direction of Labour he made it perfectly clear, like with Trident, despite going along with it. Nobody thinks Corbyn has suddenly had a change of mind because he made his own views clear whilst accepting the direction the party had set.
0 -
Time to go
No doubt the ERG hope to get their vnoc while TM ignores them and continues to negotiate in Europe
I hope everyone has a good ights rest
Good night folks0 -
I've only seen it as possible with a decent chunk of Tory support TBH*. Never thought about the calculations regarding Labour but I would have thought there would be more than 18 against it if it came to a vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The 18 anti referendum labour mps were named tonight and the same source expected Corbyn and McDonnell to follow suitTheJezziah said:
Then why is McDonnell (who you specifically mentioned) warming to the idea and even using the phrase peoples vote...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing Corbyn said today was that he did not accept rstriction on state aid in the agreement. It is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 .Big_G_NorthWales said:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
State aid rules doesn't even really affect the previous manifesto, plenty of nationally owned rail companies on the continent.
It is however one of the advantages of Brexit to Corbyn's mind, his criticism of a lack of one of the advantages in the deal doesn't necessarily imply that he wants Brexit at all costs. It doesn't really fit with allowed the shadow chancellor to make his recent comments and going along with the motions at conference.
When he genuinely disagreed with the direction of Labour he made it perfectly clear, like with Trident, despite going along with it. Nobody thinks Corbyn has suddenly had a change of mind because he made his own views clear whilst accepting the direction the party had set.
However, even if they didn't those 18 labour votes would kill of the second referendum. It would not pass
*Which is why I've always been pretty pessimistic on the idea previously but it has been growing as a possibility.
I have dismissed the chances of it before, I still don't think it will happen but it is a very plausible outcome these days.0 -
There's wiggle room, counter examples in other countries or if you are really having problems with it ways to work around the problem so the rules are adhered to in a technical way only.notme said:
I feel you really don’t understand the creeping liberalisation of rail services across the continent. When state aid is offered it is offered for a service that has to be competitively tendered. This doesn’t stop state owned companies from running railways. But it stops you insisting it’s your state owned company that does it.TheJezziah said:
Then why is McDonnell (who you specifically mentioned) warming to the idea and even using the phrase peoples vote...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next generalBig_G_NorthWales said:Andrew said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
State aid rules doesn't even really affect the previous manifesto, plenty of nationally owned rail companies on the continent.
It is however one of the advantages of Brexit to Corbyn's mind, his criticism of a lack of one of the advantages in the deal doesn't necessarily imply that he wants Brexit at all costs. It doesn't really fit with allowed the shadow chancellor to make his recent comments and going along with the motions at conference.
When he genuinely disagreed with the direction of Labour he made it perfectly clear, like with Trident, despite going along with it. Nobody thinks Corbyn has suddenly had a change of mind because he made his own views clear whilst accepting the direction the party had set.
Britain being in the EU and having state run railways is not going to be something the EU is going to get to worried about.0 -
Cox Outkle4 said:
I'd have given Raab a reason able chance but making his pitch that he is easily fooled does not sound great. But then again Javid and Gove would be stupid picks given they ostensibly support the deal May is getting binned for (even if Gove is playing both sides and Javid is hiding). Obviously Boris is usually a lay, so, hmm, the position is unclear to me. Hunt's in the same bind as Javid, although he made a good conference speech I don't know enough about Cox to know why he would appeal en masse to the MPs.AndyJS said:Next Tory leader is split fairly evenly between Raab, Javid, Johnson and Gove on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1255749630 -
It is logical to assume it may happen but tonights confirmation of these labour mps and their numbers has really put an end to the peoples vote campaign leaving deal or no dealTheJezziah said:
I've only seen it as possible with a decent chunk of Tory support TBH*. Never thought about the calculations regarding Labour but I would have thought there would be more than 18 against it if it came to a vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The 18 anti referendum labour mps were named tonight and the same source expected Corbyn and McDonnell to follow suitTheJezziah said:
Then why is McDonnell (who you specifically mentioned) warming to the idea and even using the phrase peoples vote...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion.TheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 .Big_G_NorthWales said:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
State aid rules doesn't even really affect the previous manifesto, plenty of nationally owned rail companies on the continent.
It is however one of the advantages of Brexit to Corbyn's mind, his criticism of a lack of one of the advantages in the deal doesn't necessarily imply that he wants Brexit at all costs. It doesn't really fit with allowed the shadow chancellor to make his recent comments and going along with the motions at conference.
When he genuinely disagreed with the direction of Labour he made it perfectly clear, like with Trident, despite going along with it. Nobody thinks Corbyn has suddenly had a change of mind because he made his own views clear whilst accepting the direction the party had set.
However, even if they didn't those 18 labour votes would kill of the second referendum. It would not pass
*Which is why I've always been pretty pessimistic on the idea previously but it has been growing as a possibility.
I have dismissed the chances of it before, I still don't think it will happen but it is a very plausible outcome these days.0 -
Are we back to talking about fluffers again?bigjohnowls said:
Cox Outkle4 said:
I'd have given Raab a reason able chance but making his pitch that he is easily fooled does not sound great. But then again Javid and Gove would be stupid picks given they ostensibly support the deal May is getting binned for (even if Gove is playing both sides and Javid is hiding). Obviously Boris is usually a lay, so, hmm, the position is unclear to me. Hunt's in the same bind as Javid, although he made a good conference speech I don't know enough about Cox to know why he would appeal en masse to the MPs.AndyJS said:Next Tory leader is split fairly evenly between Raab, Javid, Johnson and Gove on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1255749630 -
Compared to the other scenarios I was mentioning it is microscopic. Beside this wasn't about Brexit it was a serious comment on the whole system of JiT.Dadge said:
"something as minor as Brexit"Richard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:ralphmalph said:
Why do we need warehouses I read on here and in the press constantly that membership of the EU means we have JIT supply chains and no warehousing is required?TheWhiteRabbit said:
Warehousing has been one of the fastest growing sectors in the last few years - already well underwateralex. said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.
joker0 -
That is a valid criticism of the SNP illogical stance of the SNP, not an argument against my points.kle4 said:
Um, no it isn't. I believe in self determination for the Scots, I would just prefer it if they self determined to remain in this union even if we leave another union. One doesn't have to believe in total independence from any other body if you believe in self determination. Self evidently you do not, since the SNP strongly support being in the EU union even as they do not wish to be in the UK union. Do they not believe in self determination, or a strong, independent scottish nation? Of course they do.Richard_Tyndall said:
Um. I am a big fan of devolution - and of course of Scottish Independence. I always get flak on here for pointing out I believe it is illogical to be a Brexiteer for reasons of self determination and yet oppose Scottish Independence.dixiedean said:
In which case, we should move to greater devolution. Dismantling our Over-centralisation of powers, coupled with a radical updating of our (unwritten) Constitution is one possible side benefit of Brexit.
One which is never made by its proponents, AFAIK.0 -
Oh, have the resignations started up again? Cool. Perhaps he can take the gutless five with him and they can do the job the ERG seem to be finding so hard.bigjohnowls said:
Cox Outkle4 said:
I'd have given Raab a reason able chance but making his pitch that he is easily fooled does not sound great. But then again Javid and Gove would be stupid picks given they ostensibly support the deal May is getting binned for (even if Gove is playing both sides and Javid is hiding). Obviously Boris is usually a lay, so, hmm, the position is unclear to me. Hunt's in the same bind as Javid, although he made a good conference speech I don't know enough about Cox to know why he would appeal en masse to the MPs.AndyJS said:Next Tory leader is split fairly evenly between Raab, Javid, Johnson and Gove on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1255749630 -
They see what we have as the way forward. It’s one thing being tardy in tendering contacts, it’s another having a competive process in place and removing it. Good luck with that.TheJezziah said:
There's wiggle room, counter examples in other countries or if you are really having problems with it ways to work around the problem so the rules are adhered to in a technical way only.notme said:
I feel you really don’t understand the creeping liberalisation of rail services across the continent. When state aid is offered it is offered for a service that has to be competitively tendered. This doesn’t stop state owned companies from running railways. But it stops you insisting it’s your state owned company that does it.TheJezziah said:
Then why is McDonnell (who you specifically mentioned) warming to the idea and even using really affect the previous manifesto, plenty of nationally owned rail companies on the continent.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:
It's significant because IIRC the date is 31 December 2022 which is after the next generalBig_G_NorthWales said:Andrew said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is going to go on for a while yet - unless we have a referendum in April and Remain wins with MEPs elected in May in the usual way. Then we can get on with our lives.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
It is however one of the advantages of Brexit to Corbyn's mind, his criticism of a lack of one of the advantages in the deal doesn't necessarily imply that he wants Brexit at all costsCorbyn has suddenly had a change of mind because he made his own views clear whilst accepting the direction the party had set.
Britain being in the EU and having state run railways is not going to be something the EU is going to get to worried about.
If you want a state run railways (god knows why) it won’t be old school. It needs to wash its own face.0 -
Wow
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6403771/Urgent-background-checks-ordered-3-000-doctors.html
She actually sectioned people.0 -
A Carrington Event would make Brexit look like a tiddler.Richard_Tyndall said:
Compared to the other scenarios I was mentioning it is microscopic. Beside this wasn't about Brexit it was a serious comment on the whole system of JiT.Dadge said:
"something as minor as Brexit"Richard_Tyndall said:
On topic but at the same time completely off topic. It is genuinely frightening how much our manufacturing depends on these JiT systems. If they can be derailed by something as minor as Brexit then god help us if we have a real problem like a Carrington event or a case of nuclear terrorism.Benpointer said:
I am not sure if you have ever come across a useful internet search tool called Google but you should really try it some time. Using it to search for "JIT supply chains in the UK" produces 890,000 results. Here are a couple:ralphmalph said:
One thing I am interested in is we have been told so often about JIT supply chains you would thought that the CBI, the Govt, all the other vested interests of staying in the EU would have been able to have produced case study after case study of JIT supply chains operating in practice. Yet we have nada, not one. Makes me a bit suspicious and wanting some facts.Benpointer said:
FFS!! JIT supply chains are one of the things a No Deal Brexit would royally screw! So we would need more warehouse space.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/
When I did the course on nuclear terrorism last year one of the points that was made was that it would only take one attack - and not even a successful one - on any major port around the world and world trade would grind to a halt completely. The security systems on these ports may be very good in some instances - at least with regard to stopping dangerous items leaving the port and getting into the country itself - but as far as checking or stopping anything entering the port itself they are non existent. The delays that would result from putting in place a proper security system would render JiT completely obsolete.
joker
The thing is, such an event is a force of nature. Brexit is not - a deal can be done, a solution can be found, it is only the stubbornness of people that is preventing it. Planes may fall from the sky in a Carrington Event. They won't no matter how hard a Brexit we end up in.
Good to see you posting again, by the way 0 -
That was an actual LOL moment - then I had to explain my outburst to wife :-)FrancisUrquhart said:
Are we back to talking about fluffers again?bigjohnowls said:
Cox Outkle4 said:
I'd have given Raab a reason able chance but making his pitch that he is easily fooled does not sound great. But then again Javid and Gove would be stupid picks given they ostensibly support the deal May is getting binned for (even if Gove is playing both sides and Javid is hiding). Obviously Boris is usually a lay, so, hmm, the position is unclear to me. Hunt's in the same bind as Javid, although he made a good conference speech I don't know enough about Cox to know why he would appeal en masse to the MPs.AndyJS said:Next Tory leader is split fairly evenly between Raab, Javid, Johnson and Gove on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.125574963
0 -
On topic, I'm not entirely persuaded by Matt and Keiran's delving into the numbers to suggest a slightly more nuanced Brexit view from the public, even if it is still very bad for May. The filtering out of the don't knows perhaps is relevant as they suggest.0
-
This happened in my neck of the woods. Only uncovered by a local journalist digging.Floater said:Wow
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6403771/Urgent-background-checks-ordered-3-000-doctors.html
She actually sectioned people.0 -
On topic, it does feel right that the summary is really that the Tories are more divided, and Labour have plenty of opinions but pretty much focused on Remain when you get right down to it.
Hopefully at some point soon that can be the divide between the two - not that I want Brexit to be entirely a partisan issue, but we may as well make it a remain party and a leave party now.0 -
If only it were that simple.kle4 said:On topic, it does feel right that the summary is really that the Tories are more divided, and Labour have plenty of opinions but pretty much focused on Remain when you get right down to it.
Hopefully at some point soon that can be the divide between the two - not that I want Brexit to be entirely a partisan issue, but we may as well make it a remain party and a leave party now.
The problem is that the Leave side falls into two camps: those who wanted to leave the EU because it was too protectionist, and those who wanted to leave it because it wasn't protectionist enough.
Which Leave group should the Leave Party represent?0 -
They being sections, some of them do not which is why they do not have our system in their own countries. Dealing with Labour wanting nationalised railways will be a breeze after having to put up with Tory governments for years...notme said:
They see what we have as the way forward. It’s one thing being tardy in tendering contacts, it’s another having a competive process in place and removing it. Good luck with that.TheJezziah said:
There's wiggle room, counter examples in other countries or if you are really having problems with it ways to work around the problem so the rules are adhered to in a technical way only.notme said:
I feel you really don’t understand the creeping liberalisation of rail services across the continent. When state aid is offered it is offered for a service that has to be competitively tendered. This doesn’t stop state owned companies from running railways. But it stops you insisting it’s your state owned company that does it.TheJezziah said:
Then why is McDonnell (who you specifically mentioned) warming to the idea and even using really affect the previous manifesto, plenty of nationally owned rail companies on the continent.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not on this occassion. The first thing is the foundation of his policies and he cannot allow any restriction, hence why in he would vote it downTheJezziah said:
I think that assessment is based more on your dislike of Corbyn and McDonnell than what they would actually do..Big_G_NorthWales said:
That would be bliss. But news tonight that 18 labour mps will vote down a second referendum makes it look dead in the water. And that does not include Corbyn and McDonnell who absolutely will vote it downBarnesian said:Big_G_NorthWales said:Andrew said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peoples-vote-more-likely-than-election-says-john-mcdonnell-as-labour-stance-shifts-rwh8rhzrj
The other 18 anti referendum labour mps have been named on twitter
It is however one of the advantages of Brexit to Corbyn's mind, his criticism of a lack of one of the advantages in the deal doesn't necessarily imply that he wants Brexit at all costsCorbyn has suddenly had a change of mind because he made his own views clear whilst accepting the direction the party had set.
Britain being in the EU and having state run railways is not going to be something the EU is going to get to worried about.
If you want a state run railways (god knows why) it won’t be old school. It needs to wash its own face.0 -
I know it is not that simple at the moment, but things are getting to the point where even Labour may not be able to balance between leave, any leave, and remain and just pick one, and it would surely be Remain and Corbyn could not stop that.rcs1000 said:
If only it were that simple.kle4 said:On topic, it does feel right that the summary is really that the Tories are more divided, and Labour have plenty of opinions but pretty much focused on Remain when you get right down to it.
Hopefully at some point soon that can be the divide between the two - not that I want Brexit to be entirely a partisan issue, but we may as well make it a remain party and a leave party now.
The problem is that the Leave side falls into two camps: those who wanted to leave the EU because it was too protectionist, and those who wanted to leave it because it wasn't protectionist enough.
Which Leave group should the Leave Party represent?0 -
"Jeremy Corbyn says he does not know how he would vote in fresh EU referendum"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-brexit-second-referendum-labour-theresa-may-deal-future-not-today-sky-ridge-a8639536.html0 -
I guess for a man of his age and mental acuity, the whole "cross in box thing" is a bit confusing.AndyJS said:"Jeremy Corbyn says he does not know how he would vote in fresh EU referendum"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-brexit-second-referendum-labour-theresa-may-deal-future-not-today-sky-ridge-a8639536.html0 -
If the two-year period specified by A50 comes to be extended (huge Spartan if, and very unlikely), there will be great scope for gaming the EU election by those who want to turn it into a referendum. And if it isn't, events in Britain will loom large in a number of remaining member states, most probably in the nationalist-populist pan of the scales.0
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Mr Trump added that it may be no one will find out who was behind the killing...
"But at the same time we do have an ally and I want to stick with an ally that in many ways has been very good," he added.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46254571
It is like Corbyn response on Russia...we just know, it could be anybody....0 -
xD He's a leaver at heart !AndyJS said:"Jeremy Corbyn says he does not know how he would vote in fresh EU referendum"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-brexit-second-referendum-labour-theresa-may-deal-future-not-today-sky-ridge-a8639536.html0 -
Especially when one is looking for the box labelled "out, but kinda of in arrangement that allows me to create a proper socialist paradise."rcs1000 said:
I guess for a man of his age and mental acuity, the whole "cross in box thing" is a bit confusing.AndyJS said:"Jeremy Corbyn says he does not know how he would vote in fresh EU referendum"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-brexit-second-referendum-labour-theresa-may-deal-future-not-today-sky-ridge-a8639536.html0 -
Would you prefer him to say "Well if it's May's Deal - yes or no, then I'd vote no; if it's AV with May's Deal, No Deal and Remain, I'd vote Remain 1 and May's Deal 2; if on the other hand it's (etc.)"?rcs1000 said:
I guess for a man of his age and mental acuity, the whole "cross in box thing" is a bit confusing.AndyJS said:"Jeremy Corbyn says he does not know how he would vote in fresh EU referendum"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-brexit-second-referendum-labour-theresa-may-deal-future-not-today-sky-ridge-a8639536.html0 -
But the UK won’t be electing MEPs during the transition period.Notch said:If the two-year period specified by A50 comes to be extended (huge Spartan if, and very unlikely), there will be great scope for gaming the EU election by those who want to turn it into a referendum. And if it isn't, events in Britain will loom large in a number of remaining member states, most probably in the nationalist-populist pan of the scales.
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This article sets out the caveats and context on Rightmove House Price Data quite well. But it's another data point showing economic slowndown. If it meant stable low inflation House price in perpetuity even I might be a leaver. But I suspect we've just artificially pricked an artificial bubble which was artificially inflated to keep the post Coalition austerity drive economy on track.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/nov/19/uk-house-prices-fall-5000-brexit-south-november-rightmove?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard0 -
I meant if departure itself is delayed.rpjs said:
But the UK won’t be electing MEPs during the transition period.Notch said:If the two-year period specified by A50 comes to be extended (huge Spartan if, and very unlikely), there will be great scope for gaming the EU election by those who want to turn it into a referendum. And if it isn't, events in Britain will loom large in a number of remaining member states, most probably in the nationalist-populist pan of the scales.
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Assuming it is the Labour leavers who want more protection - they are only a very small group of five or six.rcs1000 said:
If only it were that simple.kle4 said:On topic, it does feel right that the summary is really that the Tories are more divided, and Labour have plenty of opinions but pretty much focused on Remain when you get right down to it.
Hopefully at some point soon that can be the divide between the two - not that I want Brexit to be entirely a partisan issue, but we may as well make it a remain party and a leave party now.
The problem is that the Leave side falls into two camps: those who wanted to leave the EU because it was too protectionist, and those who wanted to leave it because it wasn't protectionist enough.
Which Leave group should the Leave Party represent?0 -
I look forward to his proposing tough sanctions on Saudi Arabia... unless by that you meant it was nothing like Corbyn's response to Russia....FrancisUrquhart said:Mr Trump added that it may be no one will find out who was behind the killing...
"But at the same time we do have an ally and I want to stick with an ally that in many ways has been very good," he added.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46254571
It is like Corbyn response on Russia...we just know, it could be anybody....
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-vladimir-putin-theresa-may-sergei-skripal-magnitsky-laws-a8253786.html0 -
Fake psychiatrist for 20 years in the NHS.Floater said:Wow
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6403771/Urgent-background-checks-ordered-3-000-doctors.html
She actually sectioned people.
The deception by Alemi, thought to be of Iranian extraction, was only discovered after she was convicted of trying to fake the will of an elderly woman to steal her £1.3 million fortune.
But she did choose a red Lotus Elise as her car - so not all bad.0 -
And there is no audit process. Who knows if Brady did not get one or two sent in the post?Foxy said:
Depends what time and day Brady checks his pigeonhole.rottenborough said:Well, well, Sunday night...
Still not 48 letters.
I suppose it could all kick off tomorrow afternoon when MPs get back to Westminster.0 -
You aren't convincing anybody. His own MPs were aghast at his response and it wasn't just that day in the HoC, and of course he had access to intelligence which none of us can see, but the same intel that led to Boris calling out Putin straight away and the government not backtracking an inch, with all other major western countries backing that up.TheJezziah said:
I look forward to his proposing tough sanctions on Saudi Arabia... unless by that you meant it was nothing like Corbyn's response to Russia....FrancisUrquhart said:Mr Trump added that it may be no one will find out who was behind the killing...
"But at the same time we do have an ally and I want to stick with an ally that in many ways has been very good," he added.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46254571
It is like Corbyn response on Russia...we just know, it could be anybody....
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-vladimir-putin-theresa-may-sergei-skripal-magnitsky-laws-a8253786.html
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This discussion has been closed.