politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New adventures in electoral systems. Approval voting
Comments
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I very much doubt it. This kind of story does not sell newspapers or drive TV audiences. The TPA will be a small settlement and carry on as normal. Sad but true.OllyT said:
I think we are going to hear a lot more about this. If the Guardian article is accurate and it would appear to be given the TPA's capitulation then the ramifications are quite far reaching.Fenman said:
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Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.0 -
EHV (Enormo-Haddock Voting) is clearly the superior system.0
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The supplementary, wider point raised about thinktanks/lobbyists is interesting. How many "thinktanks" are actually lobbying vehicles ?SouthamObserver said:
I very much doubt it. This kind of story does not sell newspapers or drive TV audiences. The TPA will be a small settlement and carry on as normal. Sad but true.OllyT said:
I think we are going to hear a lot more about this. If the Guardian article is accurate and it would appear to be given the TPA's capitulation then the ramifications are quite far reaching.Fenman said:
It's always made me think - who pays for these groups of people to come up with policy positions. And what do they hope to get out of it ?
Also I've never seen "lobbyist" as an official job title. Is it 'Director of public affairs at x' ?
Is it a collection of slang terms that are so well used by journalists reporting on these matters that noone ever steps back and asks what is the end goal of these organisations; and what is their relationship to Gov't.0 -
I was thinking less about the smears and more about the fact that the highly unusual decision by the TPA to wave the white flag seems to have been taken in order to prevent disclosure of documents relating to funding and links with other groups.SouthamObserver said:
I very much doubt it. This kind of story does not sell newspapers or drive TV audiences. The TPA will be a small settlement and carry on as normal. Sad but true.OllyT said:
I think we are going to hear a lot more about this. If the Guardian article is accurate and it would appear to be given the TPA's capitulation then the ramifications are quite far reaching.Fenman said:
When organisations try to hide things then they generally unravel eventually and taking such an usual step in order to conceal something is bound to raise the interest level about what they are hiding. If it were the TPA alone I would agree with you but the VoteLeave angle is what may keep the story running.0 -
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually0 -
The BBC has been had for suckers though, and they don’t like that. Revenge is a dish best served cold, and the Beeb is likely ‘not to get mad, but to get even’! To slightly rephrase the comment.OllyT said:
I was thinking less about the smears and more about the fact that the highly unusual decision by the TPA to wave the white flag seems to have been taken in order to prevent disclosure of documents relating to funding and links with other groups.SouthamObserver said:
I very much doubt it. This kind of story does not sell newspapers or drive TV audiences. The TPA will be a small settlement and carry on as normal. Sad but true.OllyT said:
I think we are going to hear a lot more about this. If the Guardian article is accurate and it would appear to be given the TPA's capitulation then the ramifications are quite far reaching.Fenman said:
When organisations try to hide things then they generally unravel eventually and taking such an usual step in order to conceal something is bound to raise the interest level about what they are hiding. If it were the TPA alone I would agree with you but the VoteLeave angle is what may keep the story running.0 -
Paris has to do with it, but the cemetery he avoided was a Marine one. Like May missing a Commando commemoration at the last minute.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.0 -
Surely "Approval Voting" only works if you also have the option of None of the Above, to indicate you don't approve of any of those on offer?0
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Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/10615420048935854080 -
Merkel, Macron, Trump and Putin all seated next to each other on BBC News now in Paris as a violinist plays0
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You do realise Vettel drives a red car?Morris_Dancer said:F1: still checking, but no penalty for Vettel.
.....
?
!?
My gast is flabbered.
https://news.sky.com/story/more-than-7000-still-watching-black-and-white-tv-across-uk-115479630 -
'Brexit is many multiples more serious than the Suez debacle of 1956 and the consequences of a bad Brexit will be felt for far longer than was Sir Anthony Eden’s misadventure in the Middle East. That cost him the premiership, but the humbling retreat from the desert taught his country and his successors at Number 10 a valuable and necessarily brutal lesson about the limits of Britain’s post-imperial power. Suez did no lasting damage to Britain; arguably, that fiasco did this country a favour by burning away illusions about its place in the world. Nor was there enduring harm to the Conservative party. The Tories quickly ditched Eden and went on, under Harold Macmillan, to win a landslide election victory less than three years later...'FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
'If the economic blowback is nasty, the Tory party will not be able to repeat its post-Suez trick
Suez swiftly faded from controversy and slipped into the history books; Britain and its Tories will be living with the consequences of a bad Brexit for years – probably wisest to make that decades – to come...'
'Mrs May could have been 10 times more skilled at negotiating and Britain would very likely be in much the same place as it is now. The younger Johnson characterises it as a choice “between two deeply unattractive outcomes – vassalage and chaos”. At best, Mrs May will present a deal that is humiliatingly worse than the terms we currently enjoy as members of the EU. At worst, Britain will be invited to take the nightmare road that leads over a cliff-edge. The problem with Brexit is not Theresa May. The problem with Brexit is Brexit.'0 -
Mr. JohnL, no penalty for him, or Hamilton. Very, very odd.
Edited extra bit: and I don't watch on black-and-white television. My minstrels relate the racing to me through the medium of medieval song.0 -
And the Downing Street angle?OllyT said:
I was thinking less about the smears and more about the fact that the highly unusual decision by the TPA to wave the white flag seems to have been taken in order to prevent disclosure of documents relating to funding and links with other groups.SouthamObserver said:
I very much doubt it. This kind of story does not sell newspapers or drive TV audiences. The TPA will be a small settlement and carry on as normal. Sad but true.OllyT said:
I think we are going to hear a lot more about this. If the Guardian article is accurate and it would appear to be given the TPA's capitulation then the ramifications are quite far reaching.Fenman said:
When organisations try to hide things then they generally unravel eventually and taking such an usual step in order to conceal something is bound to raise the interest level about what they are hiding. If it were the TPA alone I would agree with you but the VoteLeave angle is what may keep the story running.0 -
Vince Cable does not look a well man.0
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German President Steinmeier and Prince Charles arrive at the Cenotaph0
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Or he just couldn’t be arsed.JonathanD said:
Quite. There was either a legitimate national security issue that needed dealing with or it was a trump personal life drama that came up suddenly.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
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Camilla seemed to make a joke just then as 11am approached, the Queen did not look amused0
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"The Brexiters will protest to the end of days that there was nothing inherently wrong with their concept. In this, the Brexiters remind me of the Marxists during the days of the Soviet Union and the excuses they would trot out to explain why the USSR had not turned out to be the workers’ paradise promised by old Karl’s theories. When forced to acknowledge that all the regimes that have governed in the name of Marxism had been a disaster, they would insist that this did not prove that communism was a fatally flawed idea, just that it had never been given a proper try. Just so with the Brexiters. They will protest to the end of days that there was nothing inherently wrong with their concept – it was the execution that was to blame."FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Rawnsley0 -
There is nothing frail looking about the Queen is there? She still looks a very determined and focused woman.0
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Trump's rain no show is very strange and the cover story doesn't really add up. I've seen the USMC fly helicopters in absolutely fucking appalling conditions with zero visibility plenty of times. If they wanted to get him there they could have put him on a HH-60G out of Aviano or Lakenheath which has peerless IFR capabilities.0
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Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Meanwhile, Theresa May made a bad situation worse by pandering at every stage to those who had put Britain in this predicament rather than spelling out hard truths.0 -
That is a good article and it is bang on the money. Brexit is inherently flawed.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.
twitter.com/guardian/status/10615420048935854080 -
The internal logic of Brexit itself means that any Brexit inevitably leads to this kind of outcome.AlastairMeeks said:Good Brexits are conceivable.
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On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually0 -
Utterly remarkableDavidL said:There is nothing frail looking about the Queen is there? She still looks a very determined and focused woman.
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Staying in the Single Market and Customs Union which was the BINO Brexit Remainers wanted implements barely any of the promises made by the Leave campaign, No Deal would be disastrous to both the economy and the Union.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Meanwhile, Theresa May made a bad situation worse by pandering at every stage to those who had put Britain in this predicament rather than spelling out hard truths.
May has tried to chart a course between them but it is nigh on impossible to appease both Barnier, Mogg and Foster, especially with Corbyn playing party politics at the same time
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That has not been the problem in my view. The problem has been May's procrastination and indecisiveness, her unwillingness to spell out what we wanted, what was open for discussion and what we frankly didn't care about. What we needed was a clear view of what was in our national interest. We are still waiting.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Meanwhile, Theresa May made a bad situation worse by pandering at every stage to those who had put Britain in this predicament rather than spelling out hard truths.
By keeping things vague she kept people with very different views on board for longer than she might have done but at a terrible cost in coherence and effectiveness. And she still hasn't changed. She still seems to think that if she just persists things will sort themselves out.0 -
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
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Sorry I have to disagree with this.Beverley_C said:
That is a good article and it is bang on the money. Brexit is inherently flawed.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.
twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Putting aside the referendum, the campaign and all else - there is a fundamental question - Should a country be bound into the European Union for eternity ?
If you argue that Brexit is inherently flawed then the answer to that must be 'yes'.
You can vehemently argue against this particular Brexit, even head out on a people's march and vote to remain in the referendum just gone and even the one coming up, and still believe that a country should have the right to depart from the European Union.0 -
The problem is we do not know what we wanted.DavidL said:
That has not been the problem in my view. The problem has been May's procrastination and indecisiveness, her unwillingness to spell out what we wanted, what was open for discussion and what we frankly didn't care about. What we needed was a clear view of what was in our national interest. We are still waiting.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Meanwhile, Theresa May made a bad situation worse by pandering at every stage to those who had put Britain in this predicament rather than spelling out hard truths.
By keeping things vague she kept people with very different views on board for longer than she might have done but at a terrible cost in coherence and effectiveness. And she still hasn't changed. She still seems to think that if she just persists things will sort themselves out.
The country is still divided right down the middle and the best that can be done is to try and get a reasonable compromise if we are not to get a near civil war which may be the case if No Deal or a narrow Remain win in EUref20 -
Agreed, but if and only if they have a wide degree of public support. Disruption is only a problem if people don't buy into the final goal. Phase one of any Brexit plan would be winning over the skeptical. That bit hasn't started yet. It doesn't look like it is going to now.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/10615420048935854080 -
What DO the Leavers want? There is a lot of vague talk, things will be better, etc.DavidL said:That has not been the problem in my view. The problem has been May's procrastination and indecisiveness, her unwillingness to spell out what we wanted,
Now, if Leave had said (before A50 was triggered) "We will return to WTO and we will increasing port capacity, food storage, oil/gas storage, etc... etc.. and the projected costs are as follows..." then that would be a plan. Something concrete.
What we got was waffle about sunny futures and "the EU cannot do without us"0 -
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill0 -
You're conflating different things. We have the right to leave, but the remaining members don't have an obligation to change the way they do things in order to make leaving a success.Pulpstar said:
Sorry I have to disagree with this.Beverley_C said:
That is a good article and it is bang on the money. Brexit is inherently flawed.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.
twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Putting aside the referendum, the campaign and all else - there is a fundamental question - Should a country be bound into the European Union for eternity ?
If you argue that Brexit is inherently flawed then the answer to that must be 'yes'.
You can vehemently argue against this particular Brexit, even head out on a people's march and vote to remain in the referendum just gone and even the one coming up, and still believe that a country should have the right to depart from the European Union.0 -
Leavers have always at every stage preferred to seek to grind those with doubts about their mania into the dust rather than meet their concerns. Unsurprisingly, Brexit is going to remain hugely controversial for the foreseeable future and indeed is likely to be reversed in due course.Recidivist said:
Agreed, but if and only if they have a wide degree of public support. Disruption is only a problem if people don't buy into the final goal. Phase one of any Brexit plan would be winning over the skeptical. That bit hasn't started yet. It doesn't look like it is going to now.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/10615420048935854080 -
I agree with that but for me the problem has been a chronic lack of leadership, a reluctance to discuss and agree positions on difficult issues. If she had done that instead of hiding behind irritating banalities and a non existent consensus I don't think we would be in this mess.HYUFD said:
The problem is we do not know what we wanted.DavidL said:
That has not been the problem in my view. The problem has been May's procrastination and indecisiveness, her unwillingness to spell out what we wanted, what was open for discussion and what we frankly didn't care about. What we needed was a clear view of what was in our national interest. We are still waiting.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Meanwhile, Theresa May made a bad situation worse by pandering at every stage to those who had put Britain in this predicament rather than spelling out hard truths.
By keeping things vague she kept people with very different views on board for longer than she might have done but at a terrible cost in coherence and effectiveness. And she still hasn't changed. She still seems to think that if she just persists things will sort themselves out.
The country is still divided right down the middle and the best that can be done is to try and get a reasonable compromise if we are not to get a near civil war which may be the case if No Deal or a narrow Remain win in EUref20 -
No it is just another 'have a pop at Trump day' as to be fair with tweets about Corbyn's jacket at the Cenotaph now rather than actually focusing on the events themselves which is what the weekend is supposed to be aboutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill0 -
The country voted to keep out foreigners and spend lots more money on the NHS. All the difficulties stem from that descent into toxic populism.DavidL said:
I agree with that but for me the problem has been a chronic lack of leadership, a reluctance to discuss and agree positions on difficult issues. If she had done that instead of hiding behind irritating banalities and a non existent consensus.HYUFD said:
The problem is we do not know what we wanted.DavidL said:
That has not been the problem in my view. The problem has been May's procrastination and indecisiveness, her unwillingness to spell out what we wanted, what was open for discussion and what we frankly didn't care about. What we needed was a clear view of what was in our national interest. We are still waiting.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Meanwhile, Theresa May made a bad situation worse by pandering at every stage to those who had put Britain in this predicament rather than spelling out hard truths.
By keeping things vague she kept people with very different views on board for longer than she might have done but at a terrible cost in coherence and effectiveness. And she still hasn't changed. She still seems to think that if she just persists things will sort themselves out.
The country is still divided right down the middle and the best that can be done is to try and get a reasonable compromise if we are not to get a near civil war which may be the case if No Deal or a narrow Remain win in EUref20 -
When Rod Liddle is the most interesting thing to read in the Sunday Times main section you know something has gone wrong with the standard of journalism in the rest of it.0
-
We ARE bound into the EU for eternity for two reasons:Pulpstar said:
Sorry I have to disagree with this.Beverley_C said:
That is a good article and it is bang on the money. Brexit is inherently flawed.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.
twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Putting aside the referendum, the campaign and all else - there is a fundamental question - Should a country be bound into the European Union for eternity ?
If you argue that Brexit is inherently flawed then the answer to that must be 'yes'.
1. We worked hard at integrating ourselves into it for 40+ years. No one made us do that.
2. We are not prepared to pay the price of economic dislocation that is a true Brexit.
We can depart, but the price will be very high. I am not saying we will freeze to death next winter as the Grim Reaper stalks post-Brexit Britain, but we will lose a lot of the things that make life more comfortable and better until, in about a decade's time, we manage to get our treaties back in place and they will probably contain worse terms than the ones we currently enjoy.Pulpstar said:You can vehemently argue against this particular Brexit, even head out on a people's march and vote to remain in the referendum just gone and even the one coming up, and still believe that a country should have the right to depart from the European Union.
Brexit is a downgrade. There is no way around that.0 -
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.HYUFD said:
No it is just another 'have a pop at Trump day' as to be fair with tweets about Corbyn's jacket at the Cenotaph now rather than actually focusing on the events themselves which is what the weekend is supposed to be aboutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill0 -
Even if that had been absent from the campaign, the unrealistic negotiating expectations inherent in every version of Brexit that has been proposed, including EEA/EFTA, would have led us down the same path.AlastairMeeks said:
The country voted to keep out foreigners and spend lots more money on the NHS. All the difficulties stem from that descent into toxic populism.DavidL said:
I agree with that but for me the problem has been a chronic lack of leadership, a reluctance to discuss and agree positions on difficult issues. If she had done that instead of hiding behind irritating banalities and a non existent consensus.HYUFD said:
The problem is we do not know what we wanted.DavidL said:
That has not been the problem in my view. The problem has been May's procrastination and indecisiveness, her unwillingness to spell out what we wanted, what was open for discussion and what we frankly didn't care about. What we needed was a clear view of what was in our national interest. We are still waiting.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Meanwhile, Theresa May made a bad situation worse by pandering at every stage to those who had put Britain in this predicament rather than spelling out hard truths.
By keeping things vague she kept people with very different views on board for longer than she might have done but at a terrible cost in coherence and effectiveness. And she still hasn't changed. She still seems to think that if she just persists things will sort themselves out.
The country is still divided right down the middle and the best that can be done is to try and get a reasonable compromise if we are not to get a near civil war which may be the case if No Deal or a narrow Remain win in EUref20 -
Is it though? It may play worse in America than it would here if the Prime Minister cancelled: Americans treat military veterans (and use the term heroes more widely) with more respect than we do; this is an important Republican and even Trump-leaning bloc. Which raises the question if something serious is up that persuaded the president to snub his own supporters and nation.HYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill0 -
That was before the Brexit process was clocked up. It doesn't now look like it can be delivered.ydoethur said:
The last realistic chance to stop it was by winning the damn vote. Which we failed to do. All else is just squabbling and denial.Gallowgate said:I'm hoping for more cabinet resignations on Monday. This is the last realistic chance to stop Brexit in my opinion.
I have an eight foot horn with my name on it. TTFN.0 -
Even if that were true Alastair (and I don't agree) that left a lot up for grabs. CU or not? Equivalence or rule book? All the mechanics of departure.AlastairMeeks said:
The country voted to keep out foreigners and spend lots more money on the NHS. All the difficulties stem from that descent into toxic populism.DavidL said:
I agree with that but for me the problem has been a chronic lack of leadership, a reluctance to discuss and agree positions on difficult issues. If she had done that instead of hiding behind irritating banalities and a non existent consensus.HYUFD said:
The problem is we do not know what we wanted.DavidL said:
That has not been the problem in my view. The problem has been May's procrastination and indecisiveness, her unwillingness to spell out what we wanted, what was open for discussion and what we frankly didn't care about. What we needed was a clear view of what was in our national interest. We are still waiting.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.FF43 said:.......
I think the real problem is that Leave voters aren't prepared to accept they voted to make things worse in the UK and that any Brexit negotiations are necessarily a damage limitation exercise. Which in turn leads to questions about why are we going ahead with this to make things worse.
The government won't challenge voters' on this. Hence the unrealistic negotiating position. This will go to a crisis IMO.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Meanwhile, Theresa May made a bad situation worse by pandering at every stage to those who had put Britain in this predicament rather than spelling out hard truths.
By keeping things vague she kept people with very different views on board for longer than she might have done but at a terrible cost in coherence and effectiveness. And she still hasn't changed. She still seems to think that if she just persists things will sort themselves out.
The country is still divided right down the middle and the best that can be done is to try and get a reasonable compromise if we are not to get a near civil war which may be the case if No Deal or a narrow Remain win in EUref20 -
IndeedSandyRentool said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.HYUFD said:
No it is just another 'have a pop at Trump day' as to be fair with tweets about Corbyn's jacket at the Cenotaph now rather than actually focusing on the events themselves which is what the weekend is supposed to be aboutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
https://twitter.com/toryboypierce/status/1061576694975418368?s=20
https://twitter.com/jongaunt/status/1061579825264160769?s=200 -
That’s exactly what has been discussed. Theresa May has come up with answers. The populist Leavers don’t like the implications of those answers, which have sprung inevitably from the choices derived from the referendum result.DavidL said:
Even if that were true Alastair (and I don't agree) that left a lot up for grabs. CU or not? Equivalence or rule book? All the mechanics of departure.AlastairMeeks said:
The country voted to keep out foreigners and spend lots more money on the NHS. All the difficulties stem from that descent into toxic populism.DavidL said:
I agree with that but for me the problem has been a chronic lack of leadership, a reluctance to discuss and agree positions on difficult issues. If she had done that instead of hiding behind irritating banalities and a non existent consensus.HYUFD said:
The problem is we do not know what we wanted.DavidL said:
That has not been the problem in my view. The problem has been May's procrastination and indecisiveness, her unwillingness to spell out what we wanted, what was open for discussion and what we frankly didn't care about. What we needed was a clear view of what was in our national interest. We are still waiting.AlastairMeeks said:
Andrew Rawnsley is too kind to Theresa May and not quite right. Good Brexits are conceivable. But they were all ruled out by the referendum campaign fought.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Meanwhile, Theresa May made a bad situation worse by pandering at every stage to those who had put Britain in this predicament rather than spelling out hard truths.
By keeping things vague she kept people with very different views on board for longer than she might have done but at a terrible cost in coherence and effectiveness. And she still hasn't changed. She still seems to think that if she just persists things will sort themselves out.
The country is still divided right down the middle and the best that can be done is to try and get a reasonable compromise if we are not to get a near civil war which may be the case if No Deal or a narrow Remain win in EUref2
If Leavers wanted better answers, they shouldn’t have pandered to xenophobia as the main plank of the referendum campaign.0 -
Narcissists need to be the centre of attention and that does not work when everyone else is staring at cenotaphs and wreaths, so why turn up? This way, he is the centre of attention again.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually0 -
To fail and to blame, to be listened to and be understood, but not to take action.Beverley_C said:What DO the Leavers want?...
0 -
So you have gone straight away into the 'have a pop at Trump' trap.DecrepitJohnL said:
Is it though? It may play worse in America than it would here if the Prime Minister cancelled: Americans treat military veterans (and use the term heroes more widely) with more respect than we do; this is an important Republican and even Trump-leaning bloc. Which raises the question if something serious is up that persuaded the president to snub his own supporters and nation.HYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
In reality Trump is now at the main commemoration in Paris now, he is visiting a cemetery later today and his supporters could not care less, the main people complaining in the US are unsurprisingly liberals and Trump's opponents0 -
It is reassuring to see how well she looks. Hopefully Charles will be waiting a while yet.DavidL said:There is nothing frail looking about the Queen is there? She still looks a very determined and focused woman.
0 -
Liberals holding off the populist right in the Netherlands by 3 points, 16% to 13%.
"Europe Elects
@EuropeElects
46m46 minutes ago
Netherlands, peil poll:
VVD-ALDE: 16%
PVV-ENF: 13%
GL-G/EFA: 11%
PvdA-S&D: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
FvD-*: 9%
CDA-EPP: 7%
D66-ALDE: 7%
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
DENK-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 3%
50+-* 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%
Field work: between 4/11 and 10/11/18
Sample size: 3,000+"0 -
No, I am not having a pop at Trump. Instead I am saying this was so significant in American terms that there must have been a reason for it that has not yet been made clear.HYUFD said:
So you have gone straight away into the 'have a pop at Trump' trap.DecrepitJohnL said:
Is it though? It may play worse in America than it would here if the Prime Minister cancelled: Americans treat military veterans (and use the term heroes more widely) with more respect than we do; this is an important Republican and even Trump-leaning bloc. Which raises the question if something serious is up that persuaded the president to snub his own supporters and nation.HYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
In reality Trump is now at the main commemoration in Paris now, he is visiting a cemetery later today and his supporters could not care less, the main people complaining in the US are unsurprisingly liberals and Trump's opponents0 -
And how the hell do you make a government out of that? Surely voting for such a wide coalition is not really a democracy at all. When you vote you have no idea what platform will be agreed or what the government you voted for will actually do. The fragmentation of politics on the continent is a concerning trend.AndyJS said:Liberals holding off the populist right in the Netherlands by 3 points, 16% to 13%.
"Europe Elects
@EuropeElects
46m46 minutes ago
Netherlands, peil poll:
VVD-ALDE: 16%
PVV-ENF: 13%
GL-G/EFA: 11%
PvdA-S&D: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
FvD-*: 9%
CDA-EPP: 7%
D66-ALDE: 7%
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
DENK-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 3%
50+-* 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%
Field work: between 4/11 and 10/11/18
Sample size: 3,000+"0 -
Mr. L, fragmentation is naturally exacerbated by PR. It's one of the reasons I oppose it. That, and it being the work of Satan.0
-
It's a marriage metaphor, I think. Therefore to argue whether divorce is flawed sounds strange and not the right question You can have bad marriages and so there has to be the possibility of an out. In rare cases divorce can be liberating. It doesn't mean that marriage is bad per se or that permanence is necessarily bad.Pulpstar said:
Sorry I have to disagree with this.Beverley_C said:
That is a good article and it is bang on the money. Brexit is inherently flawed.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.
twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Putting aside the referendum, the campaign and all else - there is a fundamental question - Should a country be bound into the European Union for eternity ?
If you argue that Brexit is inherently flawed then the answer to that must be 'yes'.
You can vehemently argue against this particular Brexit, even head out on a people's march and vote to remain in the referendum just gone and even the one coming up, and still believe that a country should have the right to depart from the European Union.
The problem with Brexit is that people don't accept it is a divorce and therefore the relationship, if it exists at all, will be inferior. And if you decide you do need the relationship but you are not prepared to invest in it, you have a problem.
I agree with your core point, the ability to leave must be there and it must be real. But don't expect it to be good. And do be honest about it.0 -
Even as an atheist I think the second point has considerable validity.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, fragmentation is naturally exacerbated by PR. It's one of the reasons I oppose it. That, and it being the work of Satan.
0 -
Not Jezza's greatest fan, but difficult not to judge a man by the twats who are his enemies.HYUFD said:
IndeedSandyRentool said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.HYUFD said:
No it is just another 'have a pop at Trump day' as to be fair with tweets about Corbyn's jacket at the Cenotaph now rather than actually focusing on the events themselves which is what the weekend is supposed to be aboutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
https://twitter.com/toryboypierce/status/1061576694975418368?s=20
https://twitter.com/jongaunt/status/1061579825264160769?s=200 -
Divide and rule.DavidL said:
And how the hell do you make a government out of that? Surely voting for such a wide coalition is not really a democracy at all. When you vote you have no idea what platform will be agreed or what the government you voted for will actually do. The fragmentation of politics on the continent is a concerning trend.AndyJS said:Liberals holding off the populist right in the Netherlands by 3 points, 16% to 13%.
"Europe Elects
@EuropeElects
46m46 minutes ago
Netherlands, peil poll:
VVD-ALDE: 16%
PVV-ENF: 13%
GL-G/EFA: 11%
PvdA-S&D: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
FvD-*: 9%
CDA-EPP: 7%
D66-ALDE: 7%
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
DENK-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 3%
50+-* 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%
Field work: between 4/11 and 10/11/18
Sample size: 3,000+"0 -
Folding the hood away might have made a difference, but Corbyn should have been alert to perceptions about Foot.HYUFD said:
IndeedSandyRentool said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.HYUFD said:
No it is just another 'have a pop at Trump day' as to be fair with tweets about Corbyn's jacket at the Cenotaph now rather than actually focusing on the events themselves which is what the weekend is supposed to be aboutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
https://twitter.com/toryboypierce/status/1061576694975418368?s=20
https://twitter.com/jongaunt/status/1061579825264160769?s=200 -
My cousin is married to an American and lives in Texas. Her husband is a local Sheriff and a US Marine veteran who served in Afghanistan and he is a Trump supporter. His posts on FaceBook and of his friends have all been outraged that Trump hasn't given a valid reason for not paying his respects at that US Marine cemetery. I'm sure it'll blow over, but he has at least temporarily alienated a demographic that is usually supportive of him.HYUFD said:
So you have gone straight away into the 'have a pop at Trump' trap.DecrepitJohnL said:
Is it though? It may play worse in America than it would here if the Prime Minister cancelled: Americans treat military es the question if something serious is up that persuaded the president to snub his own supporters and nation.HYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
In reality Trump is now at the main commemoration in Paris now, he is visiting a cemetery later today and his supporters could not care less, the main people complaining in the US are unsurprisingly liberals and Trump's opponents0 -
Aside from the issue of exclusivity and the fact EU membership is not a one-time contract but a status subject to continuing evolution depending on the dynamics of The Project, a major weakness of this metaphor is that it conflates strength/depth of the relationship with its quality.FF43 said:
It's a marriage metaphor, I think. Therefore to argue whether divorce is flawed sounds strange and not the right question You can have bad marriages and so there has to be the possibility of an out. In rare cases divorce can be liberating. It doesn't mean that marriage is bad per se or that permanence is necessarily bad.Pulpstar said:
Sorry I have to disagree with this.Beverley_C said:
That is a good article and it is bang on the money. Brexit is inherently flawed.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.
twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Putting aside the referendum, the campaign and all else - there is a fundamental question - Should a country be bound into the European Union for eternity ?
If you argue that Brexit is inherently flawed then the answer to that must be 'yes'.
You can vehemently argue against this particular Brexit, even head out on a people's march and vote to remain in the referendum just gone and even the one coming up, and still believe that a country should have the right to depart from the European Union.
The problem with Brexit is that people don't accept it is a divorce and therefore the relationship, if it exists at all, will be inferior. And if you decide you do need the relationship but you are not prepared to invest in it, you have a problem.
I agree with your core point, the ability to leave must be there and it must be real. But don't expect it to be good. And do be honest about it.
Is the "best" relationship one in which Britain joins the euro? Where the majority of tax and spend decisions have to be approved by the EU, or are simply taken at a continental level? Where the UK is represented by a single EU seat at the UN?
It strikes me that different values of closeness have different costs and benefits, measured on incommensurable axes, and that if there is an "optimal closeness" (different from one person's preferences to another) then it isn't necessarily going to be the tightest-bound one.0 -
I thought we established yesterday, that superheroes are now persona non grata....and like Thomas the Tank Engine children must be stopped from exposure to them.0
-
Most of the people 'advising' Corbyn aren't even old enough to remember the '90s, let alone understand how shoddy his general conduct looks to grown ups.dr_spyn said:
Folding the hood away might have made a difference, but Corbyn should have been alert to perceptions about Foot.HYUFD said:
IndeedSandyRentool said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.HYUFD said:
No it is just another 'have a pop at Trump day' as to be fair with tweets about Corbyn's jacket at the Cenotaph now rather than actually focusing on the events themselves which is what the weekend is supposed to be aboutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
https://twitter.com/toryboypierce/status/1061576694975418368?s=20
https://twitter.com/jongaunt/status/1061579825264160769?s=200 -
Seems distinctly odd that, given the Foot moment, Corbyn's handlers did not make him wear a black overcoat.Theuniondivvie said:
Not Jezza's greatest fan, but difficult not to judge a man by the twats who are his enemies.HYUFD said:
IndeedSandyRentool said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.HYUFD said:
No it is just another 'have a pop at Trump day' as to be fair with tweets about Corbyn's jacket at the Cenotaph now rather than actually focusing on the events themselves which is what the weekend is supposed to be aboutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
https://twitter.com/toryboypierce/status/1061576694975418368?s=20
https://twitter.com/jongaunt/status/1061579825264160769?s=200 -
In the Brexit negotiations the EU have been better organised and stood firm, getting everything their way.
However, by cleverly cornering the UK negotiators, have they pushed them too far so that the EU find they have no deal at the end of the day?0 -
AmenAramintaMoonbeamQC said:
It is reassuring to see how well she looks. Hopefully Charles will be waiting a while yet.DavidL said:There is nothing frail looking about the Queen is there? She still looks a very determined and focused woman.
0 -
HYUFD said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.
I saw the photo on the front page of the Guardian and he really stands out. Both how scruffy and his poppy is so tiny you can't even really see he is wearing one.
I am not being a poppy nazi, I actually wonder how come all the others have ones that they know will clearly been seen on any photos at distance and Jezza doesn't?
Perhaps the others have self awareness, that a) look smart and b) of that photos will be taken at range you need a larger poppy. Or maybe it is a zionist plot to make Jezza look bad.0 -
Exactly. Those who have spent their life obsessing about the evils of the EU should have worked through all the detailed issues involved in leaving well before pushing the matter to a public vote, so that there was a credible plan to get from here to where they want to be. Credible almost certainly means slow and measured, with arrangements unwinding over a very long time period, allowing people, businesses and institutions time to prepare and adapt - the precise opposite of the approach, such as it is, that these headbangers are trying to thrust upon us.williamglenn said:
You're conflating different things. We have the right to leave, but the remaining members don't have an obligation to change the way they do things in order to make leaving a success.Pulpstar said:
Sorry I have to disagree with this.Beverley_C said:
That is a good article and it is bang on the money. Brexit is inherently flawed.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.
twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
Putting aside the referendum, the campaign and all else - there is a fundamental question - Should a country be bound into the European Union for eternity ?
If you argue that Brexit is inherently flawed then the answer to that must be 'yes'.
You can vehemently argue against this particular Brexit, even head out on a people's march and vote to remain in the referendum just gone and even the one coming up, and still believe that a country should have the right to depart from the European Union.0 -
TM must have declined Macron's invitation to be at the Cenotaph instead.
Quite right too.0 -
OnMorris_Dancer said:Mr. L, fragmentation is naturally exacerbated by PR. It's one of the reasons I oppose it. That, and it being the work of Satan.
On the contrary, Satan likes his people in safe seats.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, fragmentation is naturally exacerbated by PR. It's one of the reasons I oppose it. That, and it being the work of Satan.
0 -
I saw the photo on the front page of the Guardian and he really stands out. Both how scruffy and his poppy is so tiny you can't even really see he is wearing one.FrancisUrquhart said:
IndeedHYUFD said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.
https://twitter.com/toryboypierce/status/1061576694975418368?s=20
https://twitter.com/jongaunt/status/1061579825264160769?s=20
I am not being a poppy nazi, I actually wonder how come all the others have ones that they know will clearly been seen on any photos at distance and Jezza doesn't?
Perhaps the others have self awareness, that a) look smart and b) of that photos will be taken at range you need a larger poppy. Or maybe it is a zionist plot to make Jezza look bad.
Did you notice that Charles's poppy had 5 petals?
p.s. blockquotes gone awry.0 -
Exactly an erse just because it was raining and involved a car journey, a balloon and right wing erses on here supporting him says it allOldKingCole said:
Paris has to do with it, but the cemetery he avoided was a Marine one. Like May missing a Commando commemoration at the last minute.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.0 -
Morning Malc - succinct as evermalcolmg said:
Exactly an erse just because it was raining and involved a car journey, a balloon and right wing erses on here supporting him says it allOldKingCole said:
Paris has to do with it, but the cemetery he avoided was a Marine one. Like May missing a Commando commemoration at the last minute.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.0 -
Good job the wind didn't catch it, or we would have had endless gags about it being his lively hood....FrancisUrquhart said:HYUFD said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.
I saw the photo on the front page of the Guardian and he really stands out. Both how scruffy and his poppy is so tiny you can't even really see he is wearing one.
I am not being a poppy nazi, I actually wonder how come all the others have ones that they know will clearly been seen on any photos at distance and Jezza doesn't?
Perhaps the others have self awareness, that a) look smart and b) of that photos will be taken at range you need a larger poppy. Or maybe it is a zionist plot to make Jezza look bad.0 -
Morning G, hope you are well.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Morning Malc - succinct as evermalcolmg said:
Exactly an erse just because it was raining and involved a car journey, a balloon and right wing erses on here supporting him says it allOldKingCole said:
Paris has to do with it, but the cemetery he avoided was a Marine one. Like May missing a Commando commemoration at the last minute.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.0 -
Corbyn will definitely remember the Foot anorak affair and will have been very supportive of Foot. Corbyn might even be trolling the easily outraged who are never going to vote for him anyway. If he is trolling, it is not appropriate on this occasion.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Most of the people 'advising' Corbyn aren't even old enough to remember the '90s, let alone understand how shoddy his general conduct looks to grown ups.dr_spyn said:
Folding the hood away might have made a difference, but Corbyn should have been alert to perceptions about Foot.HYUFD said:
IndeedSandyRentool said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.HYUFD said:
No it is just another 'have a pop at Trump day' as to be fair with tweets about Corbyn's jacket at the Cenotaph now rather than actually focusing on the events themselves which is what the weekend is supposed to be aboutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:HYUFD said:malcolmg said:FF43 said:SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
https://twitter.com/toryboypierce/status/1061576694975418368?s=20
https://twitter.com/jongaunt/status/1061579825264160769?s=20
Being charitable, perhaps he just thought that jacket was the most suitable for the weather.0 -
My dearest and myself have had a respiratory infection for the last five weeks but seem to be just turning the corner thankfullymalcolmg said:
Morning G, hope you are well.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Morning Malc - succinct as evermalcolmg said:
Exactly an erse just because it was raining and involved a car journey, a balloon and right wing erses on here supporting him says it allOldKingCole said:
Paris has to do with it, but the cemetery he avoided was a Marine one. Like May missing a Commando commemoration at the last minute.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.0 -
Agreed your point about marriage metaphors. They only take you so far. The actual situation is that the EU has constructed a sophisticated system of multilateral relationships. As a membership organisation it has no interest in a special bilateral relationship with the UK. We can either be a member of the system, be part of the system on a do as you are told basis or outside it entirely.MyBurningEars said:
Aside from the issue of exclusivity and the fact EU membership is not a one-time contract but a status subject to continuing evolution depending on the dynamics of The Project, a major weakness of this metaphor is that it conflates strength/depth of the relationship with its quality.FF43 said:
It's a marriage metaphor, I think. Therefore to argue whether divorce is flawed sounds strange and not the right question You can have bad marriages and so there has to be the possibility of an out. In rare cases divorce can be liberating. It doesn't mean that marriage is bad per se or that permanence is necessarily bad.Pulpstar said:
against this particular Brexit, even head out on a people's march and vote to remain in the referendum just gone and even the one coming up, and still believe that a country should have the right to depart from the European Union.Beverley_C said:
That is a good article and it is bang on the money. Brexit is inherently flawed.FF43 said:
Andrew Rawnsley making the same point, in more depth and more eloquently. The problem isn't poor negotiation. The problem is a lack of honesty about the situation.
twitter.com/guardian/status/1061542004893585408
The problem with Brexit is that people don't accept it is a divorce and therefore the relationship, if it exists at all, will be inferior. And if you decide you do need the relationship but you are not prepared to invest in it, you have a problem.
I agree with your core point, the ability to leave must be there and it must be real. But don't expect it to be good. And do be honest about it.
Is the "best" relationship one in which Britain joins the euro? Where the majority of tax and spend decisions have to be approved by the EU, or are simply taken at a continental level? Where the UK is represented by a single EU seat at the UN?
It strikes me that different values of closeness have different costs and benefits, measured on incommensurable axes, and that if there is an "optimal closeness" (different from one person's preferences to another) then it isn't necessarily going to be the tightest-bound one.
We rejected the first; the second is humiliating and has practical problems; the third (true divorce) is unviable. But we have to choose one of the three. Hence the lack of honesty about our choices and the looming crisis.0 -
Actually, as he is also Head of State, it is as if both the Queen and PM had bunked of because they didn’t like the weather.DecrepitJohnL said:
Is it though? It may play worse in America than it would here if the Prime Minister cancelled: Americans treat military veterans (and use the term heroes more widely) with more respect than we do; this is an important Republican and even Trump-leaning bloc. Which raises the question if something serious is up that persuaded the president to snub his own supporters and nation.HYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:
Your point is? He ducked the American dead ceremony yesterday due to fact he could not go by helicopter. Are you obtuse for the sake of it or just do not read the subject of posts you reply to.HYUFD said:
Trump is attending the ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris this morning.malcolmg said:
He would have had to go 50 miles by car, too much for the oompa loompa.FF43 said:
I have to think there's something more to this than rain. It doesn't make sense to go all the way over to France for a ceremony and not turn up.SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
In fact Sky News has just showed him arriving by the Arc de Triomphe
WTF has Paris today got to do with that.
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
It is only symbolism - but it is a powerful one, particularly from a man widely felt to put his personal interests ahead of the nation’s.
0 -
I honestly don't credit Corbyn with enough intelligence to troll. He comes across as incredibly dim.Barnesian said:
Corbyn will definitely remember the Foot anorak affair and will have been very supportive of Foot. Corbyn might even be trolling the easily outraged who are never going to vote for him anyway. If he is trolling, it is not appropriate on this occasion.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Most of the people 'advising' Corbyn aren't even old enough to remember the '90s, let alone understand how shoddy his general conduct looks to grown ups.dr_spyn said:
Folding the hood away might have made a difference, but Corbyn should have been alert to perceptions about Foot.HYUFD said:
IndeedSandyRentool said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.HYUFD said:
No it is just another 'have a pop at Trump day' as to be fair with tweets about Corbyn's jacket at the Cenotaph now rather than actually focusing on the events themselves which is what the weekend is supposed to be aboutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your last sentence is astonishing and unworthy of youHYUFD said:
The main reason he was there was the ceremony in Paris today with Macron, Merkel and Putin.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On this of all days I do not want to seem unkind but there is not a single excuse for Trump's behaviour yesterdayHYUFD said:
He is visiting another US cemetery today.malcolmg said:HYUFD said:malcolmg said:FF43 said:SouthamObserver said:Trump better hope that voters in the US are not getting much coverage of his rain-induced snub of America’s Great War dead yesterday. It’s not been a great week for the man our Bucanneers so worship.
https://twitter.com/johnsimpsonnews/status/1061312163703328768?s=21
The main reason he came was the ceremony in Paris this morning, so that has everything to do with it actually
Given he is visiting a cemetery today anyway it is all a mountain out of a molehill
https://twitter.com/toryboypierce/status/1061576694975418368?s=20
https://twitter.com/jongaunt/status/1061579825264160769?s=20
Being charitable, perhaps he just thought that jacket was the most suitable for the weather.
He just doesn't seem to understand that there are times that you need to act/appear like a grown up, and do things which are hard or unpalatable.0 -
David Lidington was in Paris instead representing the British government as Deputy PM, while Merkel was in Paris and the German President was at the Cenotaphgeoffw said:TM must have declined Macron's invitation to be at the Cenotaph instead.
Quite right too.0 -
Jezza doesn't seem interested in the British fallen. He seems to be far more interested in those who died fighting the British.0
-
He might have been present, but wasn't involved....SquareRoot said:Jezza doesn't seem interested in the British fallen. He seems to be far more interested about those who died fighting the British.
0 -
There are plenty of things to criticise Corbyn for.
But not his clothes today. It was cold, windy and there was a very real prospect of rain. He seemed perfectly appropriately dressed given that dressing up is hardly his USP. All the fuss about Foot was overdone as well.
If we're going to be all pretend outrage about clothes, let's have a go at the NZ PM who was wearing a short pink jacket over trousers at the NZ commemoration. Or Angela Merkel who really does not have the arse or thighs for trousers. And Macron's suits don't fit him properly either.0 -
There are lots of different poppies nowadays and Corbyn has been wearing that metal lapel badge for some days without apparent controversy, so perhaps he and his handlers were lulled into a false sense of security or possibly the CCHQ memo to the professionally-outraged twitterati was only sent this morning.FrancisUrquhart said:HYUFD said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.
I saw the photo on the front page of the Guardian and he really stands out. Both how scruffy and his poppy is so tiny you can't even really see he is wearing one.
I am not being a poppy nazi, I actually wonder how come all the others have ones that they know will clearly been seen on any photos at distance and Jezza doesn't?
Perhaps the others have self awareness, that a) look smart and b) of that photos will be taken at range you need a larger poppy. Or maybe it is a zionist plot to make Jezza look bad.
I'd imagine the other politicians present donned new poppies this morning since, at least in my experience, they tend to get smashed up by seatbelts.0 -
His cloths are symptomatic of his general indifference. Other leaders might wear crap clothes, and they are as equally guilty of the same charge.Cyclefree said:There are plenty of things to criticise Corbyn for.
But not his clothes today. It was cold, windy and there was a very real prospect of rain. He seemed perfectly appropriately dressed given that dressing up is hardly his USP. All the fuss about Foot was overdone as well.
If we're going to be all pretend outrage about clothes, let's have a go at the NZ PM who was wearing a short pink jacket over trousers at the NZ commemoration. Or Angela Merkel who really does not have the arse or thighs for trousers. And Macron's suits don't fit him properly either.
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Ps. the fuss over Foot may well have been overdone, but it proved to be very damaging to him personally and in turn the Labour Party.SquareRoot said:
His cloths are symptomatic of his general indifference. Other leaders might wear crap clothes, and they are as equally guilty of the same charge.Cyclefree said:There are plenty of things to criticise Corbyn for.
But not his clothes today. It was cold, windy and there was a very real prospect of rain. He seemed perfectly appropriately dressed given that dressing up is hardly his USP. All the fuss about Foot was overdone as well.
If we're going to be all pretend outrage about clothes, let's have a go at the NZ PM who was wearing a short pink jacket over trousers at the NZ commemoration. Or Angela Merkel who really does not have the arse or thighs for trousers. And Macron's suits don't fit him properly either.0 -
"Approval voting" looks like a mechanism for excluding minorities.MarqueeMark said:Surely "Approval Voting" only works if you also have the option of None of the Above, to indicate you don't approve of any of those on offer?
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I find myself in the odd position of defending Corbyn. He was wearing a suit with a neatly done up tie. He was wearing a three quarter length coat with a hood, warm and waterproof I imagine, which seems sensible given the weather in November and the heavy rain in London last night.SquareRoot said:
His cloths are symptomatic of his general indifference. Other leaders might wear crap clothes, and they are as equally guilty of the same charge.Cyclefree said:There are plenty of things to criticise Corbyn for.
But not his clothes today. It was cold, windy and there was a very real prospect of rain. He seemed perfectly appropriately dressed given that dressing up is hardly his USP. All the fuss about Foot was overdone as well.
If we're going to be all pretend outrage about clothes, let's have a go at the NZ PM who was wearing a short pink jacket over trousers at the NZ commemoration. Or Angela Merkel who really does not have the arse or thighs for trousers. And Macron's suits don't fit him properly either.
He laid his wreath, bowed his head and sang the hymns, from what I could see.
If you start making not wearing a black woollen coat some sort of capital offence, what on earth are you going to do when he really does something worth criticising?0 -
Just to note that next November Jezza will be at the Cenotaph in a coat of his choice, while it be Tezzie's replacement standing beside him.0
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I think Jeremy Corbyn's dress at the Cenotaph is fine. He is wearing a coat over a suit, just as everyone else is doing on a cold day.0
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At least it wasn't a white poppy....now THAT would have been a cause of outrage.DecrepitJohnL said:
There are lots of different poppies nowadays and Corbyn has been wearing that metal lapel badge for some days without apparent controversy, so perhaps he and his handlers were lulled into a false sense of security or possibly the CCHQ memo to the professionally-outraged twitterati was only sent this morning.FrancisUrquhart said:HYUFD said:
As soon as I saw the hood on Jezza's coat I thought - here we go - Anorakgate.
I saw the photo on the front page of the Guardian and he really stands out. Both how scruffy and his poppy is so tiny you can't even really see he is wearing one.
I am not being a poppy nazi, I actually wonder how come all the others have ones that they know will clearly been seen on any photos at distance and Jezza doesn't?
Perhaps the others have self awareness, that a) look smart and b) of that photos will be taken at range you need a larger poppy. Or maybe it is a zionist plot to make Jezza look bad.
I'd imagine the other politicians present donned new poppies this morning since, at least in my experience, they tend to get smashed up by seatbelts.0 -
So do we think Camilla's 'joke' to the Queen was a snide comment about Jezza's coat? Any lip readers in the house?0
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Yes, not as if he could not afford a dress overcoat knowing the amount of events he has to attend. Just shows his general lack of thought.SquareRoot said:
His cloths are symptomatic of his general indifference. Other leaders might wear crap clothes, and they are as equally guilty of the same charge.Cyclefree said:There are plenty of things to criticise Corbyn for.
But not his clothes today. It was cold, windy and there was a very real prospect of rain. He seemed perfectly appropriately dressed given that dressing up is hardly his USP. All the fuss about Foot was overdone as well.
If we're going to be all pretend outrage about clothes, let's have a go at the NZ PM who was wearing a short pink jacket over trousers at the NZ commemoration. Or Angela Merkel who really does not have the arse or thighs for trousers. And Macron's suits don't fit him properly either.0
