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There's no agreed alternative to May because there is no leadership contest and therefore we don't know who the contenders would be if there were one. However, if May is deposed the Conservatives can arrive at a new leader and then that leader can use their mandate to lead a fresh attempt to implement Brexit. May clearly cannot come up with a workable plan for Brexit and should go.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And neither is anyone else. Indeed you sum it up in your last sentencePhilip_Thompson said:
Please explain. She's not respected by remainers, Brexiteers, European Heads of government, the Commission or anyone else that matters as far as I can tell.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We do not know - anything could happen. But TM is brexits last hope.MarqueeMark said:
Except May won't be around.HYUFD said:
Except May has said quite clearly Parliament will decide on 'the way forward' if No Deal, not in neutral terms for an unamended motion.archer101au said:
As I posted yesterday, the EU Withdrawal Act does NOT allow for a meaningful vote in the event of no deal - the meaningful vote is only in the case of a deal.kle4 said:
In the case of no deal a Minister simply has to make a statement, and Parliament must vote in neutral terms that it has received this statement. 'Neutral terms' is Parliamentary language for a motion that cannot be amended. This is the law, by the way.
Parliament will not decide what happens in the event of no deal. It will be down the Government, and May will be long gone by then. But, for HYUFDs benefit, you might want to reflect that Cabinet will not allow the PM to seek to have the referendum reversed. The only realistic outcomes at that stage would be proceed with no deal, or seek an extension to A50.
The only reason she's still there at all is the power of inertia and the fact there's no agreed alternative.0 -
I do not hold myself up as a master wisdomPhilip_Thompson said:
Tusk says Canada is an option. He says cherrypicking (Chequers) isn't.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Canada is - not sure on Chequers but Norway or remain must now be favouritesMarqueeMark said:Can we now at least all come together and agree on one thing: Chequers is dead?
Whom to believe, him or you?
But wisdom is something missing from Tusk0 -
TGOHF said:
Wanting people to be in work is about as Tory as it gets.Theuniondivvie said:
Oddly he was wanking off on Twitter defending Universal Credit, which seems a strange tussock of the Tory hill to die on.DavidL said:
Looks like he has already found his place in the belfry.Nigelb said:
Looking at the photo, it would be inaccurate to say that no one puts Johnny in the corner...williamglenn said:
Perhaps a moment’s reflection might have caused him to think about how helpful this is.
Then your brethren on the hard europhobic ultra-Loyalist right of the party clearly aren’t Tories.0 -
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I bow before the knowledge of the true believer. Still a bit strange in the context of being 'helpful' to the..er..Tory party.TGOHF said:
Wanting people to be in work is about as Tory as it gets.Theuniondivvie said:
Oddly he was wanking off on Twitter defending Universal Credit, which seems a strange tussock of the Tory hill to die on.DavidL said:
Looks like he has already found his place in the belfry.Nigelb said:
Looking at the photo, it would be inaccurate to say that no one puts Johnny in the corner...williamglenn said:
Perhaps a moment’s reflection might have caused him to think about how helpful this is.0 -
Can you repeat in English ?Anazina said:TGOHF said:
Wanting people to be in work is about as Tory as it gets.Theuniondivvie said:
Oddly he was wanking off on Twitter defending Universal Credit, which seems a strange tussock of the Tory hill to die on.DavidL said:
Looks like he has already found his place in the belfry.Nigelb said:
Looking at the photo, it would be inaccurate to say that no one puts Johnny in the corner...williamglenn said:
Perhaps a moment’s reflection might have caused him to think about how helpful this is.
Then your brethren on the hard europhobic ultra-Loyalist right of the party clearly aren’t Tories.0 -
Looking like CU with May bailed out on Labour votes? She will probably have to fall on her sword for it, but respect to her. At 63 she can go out with her head held high.0
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They sound pretty stupid if they were surprised May brought nothing new to the table - she supposedly has told them before she could not make any more concessions. Did they think she was lying about that?Danny565 said:0 -
NEW THREAD
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Mercer is being honest - party before honesty is more an SNP / Momentum thing.Theuniondivvie said:
I bow before the knowledge of the true believer. Still a bit strange in the context of being 'helpful' to the..er..Tory party.TGOHF said:
Wanting people to be in work is about as Tory as it gets.Theuniondivvie said:
Oddly he was wanking off on Twitter defending Universal Credit, which seems a strange tussock of the Tory hill to die on.DavidL said:
Looks like he has already found his place in the belfry.Nigelb said:
Looking at the photo, it would be inaccurate to say that no one puts Johnny in the corner...williamglenn said:
Perhaps a moment’s reflection might have caused him to think about how helpful this is.0 -
Dominic Grieve on BBC news saying there must now be a second EU referendum.0
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Yep, ramp up the UC, more Brexit, slagging off his government and the headbangers in charge is really going to aid Mercer's stated aim of stopping JCIPM.TGOHF said:
Mercer is being honest - party before honesty is more an SNP / Momentum thing.Theuniondivvie said:
I bow before the knowledge of the true believer. Still a bit strange in the context of being 'helpful' to the..er..Tory party.TGOHF said:
Wanting people to be in work is about as Tory as it gets.Theuniondivvie said:
Oddly he was wanking off on Twitter defending Universal Credit, which seems a strange tussock of the Tory hill to die on.DavidL said:
Looks like he has already found his place in the belfry.Nigelb said:
Looking at the photo, it would be inaccurate to say that no one puts Johnny in the corner...williamglenn said:
Perhaps a moment’s reflection might have caused him to think about how helpful this is.0 -
I see Boles as the Mouth of Gove, and the Mouth has been saying EEA until Canada FTA agreed.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Canada is - not sure on Chequers but Norway or remain must now be favouritesMarqueeMark said:Can we now at least all come together and agree on one thing: Chequers is dead?
resignations from cabinet? What if pizza club adopted EEA until Canada FTA agreed, flipping it round from where we were 7 days ago so the loyalists, just the two of them left, May, Hammond, could keep their jobs by adopting this pathway, or leave the cabinet?0 -
It really feels as if this government is about to go bang. This is even worse than Gentleman John's time - that was just sinking beneath the waves in tiredness and acrimony. I think the Tories will oust Theresa and then attempt to bring about a GE and run on a manifesto commitment of a 2nd referendum with two options only: Remain or Hard Brexit. How else can they extricate themselves from this mess without destroying the brand for ever?TGOHF said:0 -
Sums today's society up. I really hope you get justice. Simply unacceptable behaviour. All the bestSeanT said:
Sympathies. I hope the wanker gets jail time. Not British.murali_s said:O/T - a bit long and dramatic!
Had an interesting incident on my way to work this morning. Those of you who travel on the Waterloo and City line at Waterloo will know how the queues snake around during busy periods. This guy, fully booted and suited casually jumped the really long queue and refused to adhere to the requests of the TfL staff to get tot he back of the queue. The sheer arrogance of the guy astounded me - I went up to him suggesting what he had done was wrong and yes I did call him a "tall tw*t".
For my troubles I got a size 12 boot up my spine which made me collapse to the floor, bruises and all. A big shout-out to the couple of lovely ladies who helped me up. The guy nonchalantly carried on and boarded the train. I was going to leave the matter but the two ladies told me to report this to the Police (they had photos on their phone etc.). I got off at Bank and sneakily followed him to his workplace - with that knowledge I returned to Bank station and reported the incident to BTP. Luckily the ladies had also called in as witnesses to the event. Let's see what happens but definitely an interesting commute into work today!!0 -
She really has had an unenviable job. Rubbish decision to have an early election aside, she’s made a good fist of it in a nest of squabbling vipers and whatever happens next I hope history judges her kindly.Anazina said:Looking like CU with May bailed out on Labour votes? She will probably have to fall on her sword for it, but respect to her. At 63 she can go out with her head held high.
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Fair play to you sir.HYUFD said:
No Deal could sign the death warrant of the country. I would rather the Tories be out for a decade or more than that which would be irreversibleTGOHF said:
Those 40 Con MPs would be signing the death warrant of the party. That would be some choice to make.archer101au said:
SM+CU is quite obviously not allowed by A50. I have no faith in the ECJ; but they already ruled unfortunately on the fact that mixed competency trade agreements have to be ratified by all Parliaments so there is no way they can backtrack. It will take several years to agree and ratify and, as we have seen with CETA, there is always someone who will play games and refuse to agree it at the end. So the UK would offer the NI backstop in the full knowledge that it could be used.rpjs said:
I think in practice the EU would be able to find a dollop of Eurofudge from the CAP fudge mountain to put SM+CU through.archer101au said:
SM+CU cannot be offered by the EU under A50. It is a completely new trade deal requiring full negotiation and ratification. In the meantime the EU will insist on the backstop. The backstop is not acceptable because any EU Parliament could veto the trade deal later.rpjs said:
I would have thought the EU would jump at Norway + CU. Minimum economic disruption for anyone plus they lose the biggest fly in the EU ointment. Win-win for them.HYUFD said:
As it requires the Customs Union too for Barnier to agree it as the NI backstop and the DUP will require that to apply to the whole UKYorkcity said:Nick Boles is an impressive conservative MP.
Just seen him on ch4 news.
He is very convincing about going with the Norway option instead of May chequers deal.
He has convinced me that seems the sensible way forward.
Also he believes it would command a majority in the HOC.
Hard to see why the government and May will not take his advice.
But from our PoV, what's the point of leaving the EU then? About the only thing it gives us is leaving the CAP/CFP but we lose EU project funding and any say in rule-making.
Neither Norway (not available anyway) or SM+CU solve the issue that May has created for herself.
It seems the country is now split between pro-business pro-jobs patriots of all political shades and europhobic ideologues.
I’m backing the former group to face down the wreckers.0 -
But again your comments are all ifs which sums up the paralysissteve_garner said:
There's no agreed alternative to May because there is no leadership contest and therefore we don't know who the contenders would be if there were one. However, if May is deposed the Conservatives can arrive at a new leader and then that leader can use their mandate to lead a fresh attempt to implement Brexit. May clearly cannot come up with a workable plan for Brexit and should go.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And neither is anyone else. Indeed you sum it up in your last sentencePhilip_Thompson said:
Please explain. She's not respected by remainers, Brexiteers, European Heads of government, the Commission or anyone else that matters as far as I can tell.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We do not know - anything could happen. But TM is brexits last hope.MarqueeMark said:
Except May won't be around.HYUFD said:
Except May has said quite clearly Parliament will decide on 'the way forward' if No Deal, not in neutral terms for an unamended motion.archer101au said:
As I posted yesterday, the EU Withdrawal Act does NOT allow for a meaningful vote in the event of no deal - the meaningful vote is only in the case of a deal.kle4 said:
In the case of no deal a Minister simply has to make a statement, and Parliament must vote in neutral terms that it has received this statement. 'Neutral terms' is Parliamentary language for a motion that cannot be amended. This is the law, by the way.
Parliament will not decide what happens in the event of no deal. It will be down the Government, and May will be long gone by then. But, for HYUFDs benefit, you might want to reflect that Cabinet will not allow the PM to seek to have the referendum reversed. The only realistic outcomes at that stage would be proceed with no deal, or seek an extension to A50.
The only reason she's still there at all is the power of inertia and the fact there's no agreed alternative.
If I could see a leader I would be at the head of the queue to ask TM to stand down but no one wants it
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The problem the Tory party have is that in the top tier, it is not just Mrs May that this out of her depth. There is no talent in the cabinet, with the exception of Gove, Cox and maybe 2 others. The rest just do not have a clue.Stark_Dawning said:
It really feels as if this government is about to go bang. This is even worse than Gentleman John's time - that was just sinking beneath the waves in tiredness and acrimony. I think the Tories will oust Theresa and then attempt to bring about a GE and run on a manifesto commitment of a 2nd referendum with two options only: Remain or Hard Brexit. How else can they extricate themselves from this mess without destroying the brand for ever?TGOHF said:0 -
Agreed.numbertwelve said:
She really has had an unenviable job. Rubbish decision to have an early election aside, she’s made a good fist of it in a nest of squabbling vipers and whatever happens next I hope history judges her kindly.Anazina said:Looking like CU with May bailed out on Labour votes? She will probably have to fall on her sword for it, but respect to her. At 63 she can go out with her head held high.
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It is not my fault if you can’t read.TGOHF said:
Can you repeat in English ?Anazina said:TGOHF said:
Wanting people to be in work is about as Tory as it gets.Theuniondivvie said:
Oddly he was wanking off on Twitter defending Universal Credit, which seems a strange tussock of the Tory hill to die on.DavidL said:
Looks like he has already found his place in the belfry.Nigelb said:
Looking at the photo, it would be inaccurate to say that no one puts Johnny in the corner...williamglenn said:
Perhaps a moment’s reflection might have caused him to think about how helpful this is.
Then your brethren on the hard europhobic ultra-Loyalist right of the party clearly aren’t Tories.0 -
I have no problem with thatLordOfReason said:
I see Boles as the Mouth of Gove, and the Mouth has been saying EEA until Canada FTA agreed.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Canada is - not sure on Chequers but Norway or remain must now be favouritesMarqueeMark said:Can we now at least all come together and agree on one thing: Chequers is dead?
resignations from cabinet? What if pizza club adopted EEA until Canada FTA agreed, flipping it round from where we were 7 days ago so the loyalists, just the two of them left, May, Hammond, could keep their jobs by adopting this pathway, or leave the cabinet?0 -
I hope so tooAnazina said:
Fair play to you sir.HYUFD said:
No Deal could sign the death warrant of the country. I would rather the Tories be out for a decade or more than that which would be irreversibleTGOHF said:
Those 40 Con MPs would be signing the death warrant of the party. That would be some choice to make.archer101au said:
SM+CU is quite obviously not allowed by A50. I have no faith in the ECJ; but they already ruled unfortunately on the fact that mixed competency trade agreements have to be ratified by all Parliaments so there is no way they can backtrack. It will take several years to agree and ratify and, as we have seen with CETA, there is always someone who will play games and refuse to agree it at the end. So the UK would offer the NI backstop in the full knowledge that it could be used.rpjs said:
I think in practice the EU would be able to find a dollop of Eurofudge from the CAP fudge mountain to put SM+CU through.archer101au said:
SM+CU cannot be offered by the EU under A50. It is a completely new trade deal requiring full negotiation and ratification. In the meantime the EU will insist on the backstop. The backstop is not acceptable because any EU Parliament could veto the trade deal later.rpjs said:
I would have thought the EU would jump at Norway + CU. Minimum economic disruption for anyone plus they lose the biggest fly in the EU ointment. Win-win for them.HYUFD said:
As it requires the Customs Union too for Barnier to agree it as the NI backstop and the DUP will require that to apply to the whole UKYorkcity said:Nick Boles is an impressive conservative MP.
Just seen him on ch4 news.
He is very convincing about going with the Norway option instead of May chequers deal.
He has convinced me that seems the sensible way forward.
Also he believes it would command a majority in the HOC.
Hard to see why the government and May will not take his advice.
But from our PoV, what's the point of leaving the EU then? About the only thing it gives us is leaving the CAP/CFP but we lose EU project funding and any say in rule-making.
Neither Norway (not available anyway) or SM+CU solve the issue that May has created for herself.
It seems the country is now split between pro-business pro-jobs patriots of all political shades and europhobic ideologues.
I’m backing the former group to face down the wreckers.0 -
It really doesn't help your cause to label 45% + of the population europhobic ideologues, in the same manner that Hillary realised too late that calling half of the population deplorables didn't really work out that well. You may not agree with their reasoning but there are many valid reasons outside casual europhobia why people voted leave, and an attempt to understand what those reasons are would immediately reduce the polarisation we're seeing now.Anazina said:
Fair play to you sir.HYUFD said:
No Deal could sign the death warrant of the country. I would rather the Tories be out for a decade or more than that which would be irreversibleTGOHF said:
Those 40 Con MPs would be signing the death warrant of the party. That would be some choice to make.archer101au said:
SM+CU is quite obviously not allowed by A50. I have no faith in the ECJ; but they already ruled unfortunately on the fact that mixed competency trade agreements have to be ratified by all Parliaments so there is no way they can backtrack. It will take several years to agree and ratify and, as we have seen with CETA, there is always someone who will play games and refuse to agree it at the end. So the UK would offer the NI backstop in the full knowledge that it could be used.rpjs said:
I think in practice the EU would be able to find a dollop of Eurofudge from the CAP fudge mountain to put SM+CU through.archer101au said:
Neither Norway (not available anyway) or SM+CU solve the issue that May has created for herself.rpjs said:
But from our PoV, what's the point of leaving the EU then? About the only thing it gives us is leaving the CAP/CFP but we lose EU project funding and any say in rule-making.HYUFD said:
As it requires the Customs Union too for Barnier to agree it as the NI backstop and the DUP will require that to apply to the whole UKYorkcity said:Nick Boles is an impressive conservative MP.
Just seen him on ch4 news.
He is very convincing about going with the Norway option instead of May chequers deal.
He has convinced me that seems the sensible way forward.
Also he believes it would command a majority in the HOC.
Hard to see why the government and May will not take his advice.
It seems the country is now split between pro-business pro-jobs patriots of all political shades and europhobic ideologues.
I’m backing the former group to face down the wreckers.0 -
I have just read Johnny Mercer's interview, and find it difficult to argue with a word of this:
"If you look at Chequers, for example, that is your classic professional politician’s answer because it’s right down the middle. It doesn’t make anybody happy. It’s the ultimate in not making a decision.
“And I’m afraid, people who pay our wages and vote for us expect us to make decisions and get on with government, not be fixated on us retaining our position.
"It’s not actually about us. This country isn’t ours, politics isn’t ours. It’s the people who vote for us and pay our wages.
“I think if we forget that at the crucial moment on Brexit, and I say that as a Remainer, someone who voted Remain, I think the disdain with which people have held politicians will reach a crescendo if we don’t deliver on that referendum result and make people feel like they’ve left the European Union.”0 -
His argument is circular. If "it's not about us" then why does it matter if people hold politicians in disdain? If he believes that his duty is to the country then he should look after the interests of the voters, not the image of politicians.GreenHeron said:I have just read Johnny Mercer's interview, and find it difficult to argue with a word of this:
"If you look at Chequers, for example, that is your classic professional politician’s answer because it’s right down the middle. It doesn’t make anybody happy. It’s the ultimate in not making a decision.
“And I’m afraid, people who pay our wages and vote for us expect us to make decisions and get on with government, not be fixated on us retaining our position.
"It’s not actually about us. This country isn’t ours, politics isn’t ours. It’s the people who vote for us and pay our wages.
“I think if we forget that at the crucial moment on Brexit, and I say that as a Remainer, someone who voted Remain, I think the disdain with which people have held politicians will reach a crescendo if we don’t deliver on that referendum result and make people feel like they’ve left the European Union.”0 -
The rise of the Greens in Germany is astonishing. (Note the shadowed bars are the previous election result, not the previous poll.)
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