politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Scotland and the electoral system: Why winning the next GE is

System · August 2018

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Scotland and the electoral system: Why winning the next GE is huge ask of LAB

We all recall that at the 2005 general election Tony Blair’s Labour won the GB vote by a margin of just 3% but that was enough to give them an overall majority of 64. There was little doubt that the electoral system then favoured the red team.

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Sunil_Prasannan · August 2018

First unlike Labour

CarlottaVance · August 2018

Second - like Labour & Remain....

IanB2 · August 2018

Still third like Boris

CarlottaVance · August 2018

Without a Scottish recovery the prospect of a Labour majority is very remote indeed.

In his heart of hearts I wouldn’t be surprised if Corbyn didn’t secretly support the Scots “freedom fighters” against their English “Imperialist oppressors”....who only want the Union so they can station their nukes on the Clyde...

Morris_Dancer · August 2018

Good morning, everyone.

I'd rather not imagine the last electoral result with 41 Labour MPs. I sleep badly enough as it is.

Miss Vance, quite. Although, to be fair, very few if any of the SNP or Yes more generally are as wretched as a man who declares Hamas and Hezbollah as his friends.

Kind of odd that Owen Jones doesn't seem to mind that, given Hamas and Hezbollah have a nasty habit of throwing homosexuals off rooftops, as much as he minds the cover of the New European showing him crying (homophobia, he claims).

MarqueeMark · August 2018

We don't hear about Scottish pandas these days. I do hope they are well....

hamiltonace · August 2018

Labour lack a strong scottish political leader. As such little chance of major revival.

daodao · August 2018

CarlottaVance said:
Without a Scottish recovery the prospect of a Labour majority is very remote indeed.

In his heart of hearts I wouldn’t be surprised if Corbyn didn’t secretly support the Scots “freedom fighters” against their English “Imperialist oppressors”....who only want the Union so they can station their nukes on the Clyde...

Given the current electoral fortunes, in the Con vs Lab battle, Labour would be in a better position electorally if both the 6 counties and Scotland were outwith the UK. It would also solve future rUK/EU border issues - IMO, the best place for such a border is along the Cheviots.

IanB2 · August 2018

MarqueeMark said:
We don't hear about Scottish pandas these days. I do hope they are well....

...and looking forward to outnumbering the Tories again once Boris kills the tactical votes they got from Labour and LibDem unionists.

MJW · August 2018

On topic, while Brexit and Corbyn's equivocation on it, has arguably served Labour well in England - as it's solidified the liberal centre behind a leader they'd probably abandon for a centrist Tory, it might snooker Lab north of the border. All the SNP have to do is rejig their 2015 campaign and insist they need your votes to fight for Scotland in an eventual deal or that Labour are complicit in a bad deal that has shafted Scotland for the sake of English votes. They also may even be able to pick up tactical Tory votes where the blues aren't in contention by pitching themselves as a bloc who'll stop any Corbyn government doing anything too mad.

"Would you give these two huge power over Scotland?" Os a powerful message when you have someone as unpopular as Corbyn and Tory who'll either be a decayed May or, more likely, the Tory membership's id in human form.

IanB2 · August 2018

MJW said:
On topic, while Brexit and Corbyn's equivocation on it, has arguably served Labour well in England - as it's solidified the liberal centre behind a leader they'd probably abandon for a centrist Tory, it might snooker Lab north of the border. All the SNP have to do is rejig their 2015 campaign and insist they need your votes to fight for Scotland in an eventual deal or that Labour are complicit in a bad deal that has shafted Scotland for the sake of English votes. They also may even be able to pick up tactical Tory votes where the blues aren't in contention by pitching themselves as a bloc who'll stop any Corbyn government doing anything too mad.

"Would you give these two huge power over Scotland?" Os a powerful message when you have someone as unpopular as Corbyn and Tory who'll either be a decayed May or, more likely, the Tory membership's id in human form.

Combine that with my point about the risk to the Tories if they go for a leaver and there must be some betting opportunity on the SNP upside?

DavidL · August 2018

The collapse of Scottish Labour culminating in 2015 probably remains the most remarkable political outcome I have witnessed. Scottish Labour were the establishment. Pretty much everyone who worked in the public sector in Scotland in any kind of position would by default be a Labour supporter. It was an essential part of the career. Of course the public sector has been and remains more dominant in Scotland than the UK average and a depressingly high percentage of the private sector is totally dependent upon the public sector so many in the private sector literally wore their allegiance on their collar to facilitate relationships as well.

The achievement of the SNP in firstly taking Holyrood away from Labour and then wiping out their dominance both in local government and at Westminster is truly a remarkable one. Labour supporters still employed in our public sector keep pretty quiet about it. Increasingly, and inevitably, after 10 years in power SNP apparatchiks have largely replaced Labour ones whether that is on Health Boards, as Judges, Sheriffs, public sector office holders or whatever. They are going to be hard to shift. Not all of these supporters necessarily want independence but they do support the SNP as the party best able to represent Scotland, something Scottish Labour forgot to do.

What we had previously was a combination of a working class taken for granted and a middle class that provided a more than slightly bossy leadership whilst feathering their own nest to a remarkable degree. Now the middle class supporters for Labour have gone, most to the SNP but quite a few to the Tories. The working classes of Strathclyde, Lothian and Dundee have been sold the independence fantasy. What can Labour offer to bring them back when they seem so inept in Westminster and unimportant at Holyrood?

A lot of seats around Glasgow are, on paper, highly marginal after 2017. They might become more so if the SNP lost control of Holyrood next time out which is possible if not likely (another minority government with tacit Labour/Tory support is the more likely outcome). But Labour look dead with very weak to invisible leadership and a party structure that has fallen into disrepair. Even the Lib Dems seem to have a better grasp of grassroots activism than they do. Any recovery will depend on SNP weakness and is likely to be modest.

Nigelb · August 2018

Trump has at last achieved bipartisan consensus, going all the way back to those who served under Reagan:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/the-nations-top-former-intelligence-officials-issue-a-stunning-rebuke-to-trump.html?

RochdalePioneers · August 2018

Under First Past the Post national vote tallies or percentage shares remain largely irrelevant. Corbynite cretins producing "info"graphics about how many votes Corbyn got proving he's more successful than Blair seem not to care that seats is what counts not votes.

Alanbrooke · August 2018

DavidL said:
The collapse of Scottish Labour culminating in 2015 probably remains the most remarkable political outcome I have witnessed. Scottish Labour were the establishment. Pretty much everyone who worked in the public sector in Scotland in any kind of position would by default be a Labour supporter. It was an essential part of the career. Of course the public sector has been and remains more dominant in Scotland than the UK average and a depressingly high percentage of the private sector is totally dependent upon the public sector so many in the private sector literally wore their allegiance on their collar to facilitate relationships as well.

The achievement of the SNP in firstly taking Holyrood away from Labour and then wiping out their dominance both in local government and at Westminster is truly a remarkable one. Labour supporters still employed in our public sector keep pretty quiet about it. Increasingly, and inevitably, after 10 years in power SNP apparatchiks have largely replaced Labour ones whether that is on Health Boards, as Judges, Sheriffs, public sector office holders or whatever. They are going to be hard to shift. Not all of these supporters necessarily want independence but they do support the SNP as the party best able to represent Scotland, something Scottish Labour forgot to do.

What we had previously was a combination of a working class taken for granted and a middle class that provided a more than slightly bossy leadership whilst feathering their own nest to a remarkable degree. Now the middle class supporters for Labour have gone, most to the SNP but quite a few to the Tories. The working classes of Strathclyde, Lothian and Dundee have been sold the independence fantasy. What can Labour offer to bring them back when they seem so inept in Westminster and unimportant at Holyrood?

A lot of seats around Glasgow are, on paper, highly marginal after 2017. They might become more so if the SNP lost control of Holyrood next time out which is possible if not likely (another minority government with tacit Labour/Tory support is the more likely outcome). But Labour look dead with very weak to invisible leadership and a party structure that has fallen into disrepair. Even the Lib Dems seem to have a better grasp of grassroots activism than they do. Any recovery will depend on SNP weakness and is likely to be modest.

To give credit to the SNP they simply did what Labour didnt - put their voters first. I wondered if a sensible altenative might do the same for all those Labour constituencies in the North of England, The signs are there.

Morris_Dancer · August 2018

Mr. L, complacency can see the seemingly unstoppable be defeated. Like the hare losing to the tortoise.

AlastairMeeks · August 2018

The two Scottish political songs at present are independence and Brexit. Scottish Labour don’t sing either of them and aren’t the effective opposition in Scotland to either of them. They need either to take over a voice in one of those songs or, more plausibly, to get the public singing a new song.

IanB2 · August 2018

DavidL said:
The collapse of Scottish Labour culminating in 2015 probably remains the most remarkable political outcome I have witnessed. Scottish Labour were the establishment. Pretty much everyone who worked in the public sector in Scotland in any kind of position would by default be a Labour supporter. It was an essential part of the career. Of course the public sector has been and remains more dominant in Scotland than the UK average (snip)

The achievement of the SNP in firstly taking Holyrood away from Labour and then wiping out their dominance both in local government and at Westminster is truly a remarkable one. Labour supporters still employed in our public sector keep pretty quiet about it. Increasingly, and inevitably, after 10 years in power SNP apparatchiks have largely replaced Labour ones whether that is on Health Boards, as Judges, Sheriffs, public sector office holders or whatever. They are going to be hard to shift. Not all of these supporters necessarily want independence but they do support the SNP as the party best able to represent Scotland, something Scottish Labour forgot to do.

What we had previously was a combination of a working class taken for granted and a middle class that provided a more than slightly bossy leadership whilst feathering their own nest to a remarkable degree. Now the middle class supporters for Labour have gone, most to the SNP but quite a few to the Tories. The working classes of Strathclyde, Lothian and Dundee have been sold the independence fantasy. What can Labour offer to bring them back when they seem so inept in Westminster and unimportant at Holyrood?

A lot of seats around Glasgow are, on paper, highly marginal after 2017. They might become more so if the SNP lost control of Holyrood next time out which is possible if not likely (another minority government with tacit Labour/Tory support is the more likely outcome). But Labour look dead with very weak to invisible leadership and a party structure that has fallen into disrepair. Even the Lib Dems seem to have a better grasp of grassroots activism than they do. Any recovery will depend on SNP weakness and is likely to be modest.

The move to fair voting for Scottish local government elections, demanded by the LibDems as the price for Holyrood coalition, likely played a part in breaking Labour's previous stranglehold on the country, as well as providing the SNP with a platform to gain experience and a cadre of elected representatives.

It remains my view that not asking for STV for UK local elections, in preference for AV at GEs, was the LibDems biggest (or at least second biggest) mistake after 2010. Scotland provided an easy precedent, and the Tories would likely have granted it in preference to any risk of change at Wesminster. Not least for the opportunity it would give the Tories to regain a presence in urban local government.

DavidL · August 2018

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

A lot of seats around Glasgow are, on paper, highly marginal after 2017. They might become more so if the SNP lost control of Holyrood next time out which is possible if not likely (another minority government with tacit Labour/Tory support is the more likely outcome). But Labour look dead with very weak to invisible leadership and a party structure that has fallen into disrepair. Even the Lib Dems seem to have a better grasp of grassroots activism than they do. Any recovery will depend on SNP weakness and is likely to be modest.
To give credit to the SNP they simply did what Labour didnt - put their voters first. I wondered if a sensible altenative might do the same for all those Labour constituencies in the North of England, The signs are there.

Not just there. Much of Labour seems obsessed with trivia about gender equality, sexual orientation and minority groups almost to the exclusion of bread and butter issues that actually affect their supporters. In fairness to Corbyn he shows a better grasp of that than most. Much of what is being promoted as possible alternative leadership/new party are as alienated from the lives of those they purport to represent as Scottish Labour were.

Casino_Royale · August 2018

You could swap 30 SNP seats for 30 Labour ones and it wouldn't get them much closer to power, other than making whipping nominally easier and a majority more arthimetically feasible.

The real game is in Labour swiping a good 50 English marginals.

MarqueeMark · August 2018

IanB2 said:

The move to fair voting for Scottish local government elections, demanded by the LibDems as the price for Holyrood coalition, likely played a part in breaking Labour's previous stranglehold on the country, as well as providing the SNP with a platform to gain experience and a cadre of elected representatives.

It remains my view that not asking for STV for UK local elections, in preference for AV at GEs, was the LibDems biggest (or at least second biggest) mistake after 2010. Scotland provided an easy precedent, and the Tories would likely have granted it in preference to any risk of change at Wesminster. Not least for the opportunity it would give the Tories to regain a presence in urban local government.

Really good point.

IanB2 · August 2018

Casino_Royale said:
You could swap 30 SNP seats for 30 Labour ones and it wouldn't get them much closer to power, other than making whipping nominally easier and a majority more arthimetically feasible.

The real game is in Labour swiping a good 50 English marginals.

It would make the latter figure twenty rather than fifty. Which is a significantly easier hurdle. (Edit/ unless you take the view that the future is a Lab/SNP coalition. Given the hatred between them on the ground, I am not so sure).

MarqueeMark · August 2018

AlastairMeeks said:
The two Scottish political songs at present are independence and Brexit. Scottish Labour don’t sing either of them and aren’t the effective opposition in Scotland to either of them. They need either to take over a voice in one of those songs or, more plausibly, to get the public singing a new song.

Or turn Taliban - and stop them singing at all.

Which.....

DavidL · August 2018

IanB2 said:

DavidL said:
The move to fair voting for Scottish local government elections, demanded by the LibDems as the price for Holyrood coalition, likely played a part in breaking Labour's previous stranglehold on the country, as well as providing the SNP with a platform to gain experience and a cadre of elected representatives.

It remains my view that not asking for STV for UK local elections, in preference for AV at GEs, was the LibDems biggest (or at least second biggest) mistake after 2010. Scotland provided an easy precedent, and the Tories would likely have granted it in preference to any risk of change at Wesminster. Not least for the opportunity it would give the Tories to regain a presence in urban local government.

Agreed. It was a huge boost to SNP branches across the country giving them much higher profile, media coverage and experience. Conversely the rotten burghs and the corruption that they inevitably attracted ultimately did Labour no favours.

DavidL · August 2018

Casino_Royale said:
You could swap 30 SNP seats for 30 Labour ones and it wouldn't get them much closer to power, other than making whipping nominally easier and a majority more arthimetically feasible.

The real game is in Labour swiping a good 50 English marginals.

You are taking SNP support for granted. That would be a mistake that Labour would regret. The price would be high, certainly a lot higher than a mere billion.

Alanbrooke · August 2018

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

A lot of seats around Glasgow are, on paper, highly marginal after 2017. They might become more so if the SNP lost control of Holyrood next time out which is possible if not likely (another minority government with tacit Labour/Tory support is the more likely outcome). But Labour look dead with very weak to invisible leadership and a party structure that has fallen into disrepair. Even the Lib Dems seem to have a better grasp of grassroots activism than they do. Any recovery will depend on SNP weakness and is likely to be modest.
To give credit to the SNP they simply did what Labour didnt - put their voters first. I wondered if a sensible altenative might do the same for all those Labour constituencies in the North of England, The signs are there.

Not just there. Much of Labour seems obsessed with trivia about gender equality, sexual orientation and minority groups almost to the exclusion of bread and butter issues that actually affect their supporters. In fairness to Corbyn he shows a better grasp of that than most. Much of what is being promoted as possible alternative leadership/new party are as alienated from the lives of those they purport to represent as Scottish Labour were.

Unfortunately thats not just Labour, the Conservatives are just as bad to the poiint where its not worth voting for them. Corbyn as you rightly say lidentified voters concerns and profited from it. I can only hope that at some stage the Tories might actually realise housing, education and wages trump Levinson, burqas and Boris.

JosiasJessop · August 2018

Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")

MarqueeMark · August 2018

hamiltonace said:
Labour lack a strong scottish political leader. As such little chance of major revival.

They seem to have tried most of them....

MJW · August 2018

AlastairMeeks said:
The two Scottish political songs at present are independence and Brexit. Scottish Labour don’t sing either of them and aren’t the effective opposition in Scotland to either of them. They need either to take over a voice in one of those songs or, more plausibly, to get the public singing a new song.

I think in Westminster elections at least their best song is not Independence per se but the seat at the table. You've got a Tory government with the potential to spin off to the right pursuing the Brexit their English base want and a Labour one with, well, a potential for eccentric economic policies of their own.

They also have the perfect example in the DUP as a party who with 10 seats have been able to extract large bungs and dictate on Brexit. They could argue that voting SNP would force Labour to do both in exchange for formal support and that only they would do the latter in the case of another weak Tory administration given Labour's own divides and inconsistencies on Brexit.

SquareRoot · August 2018

"Without a Scottish recovery the prospect of a Labour majority is very remote indeed. "

Comforting words indeed. We don't want the lunatic running the asylum.

DavidL · August 2018

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")

The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.

ydoethur · August 2018

daodao said:

CarlottaVance said:
Without a Scottish recovery the prospect of a Labour majority is very remote indeed.

In his heart of hearts I wouldn’t be surprised if Corbyn didn’t secretly support the Scots “freedom fighters” against their English “Imperialist oppressors”....who only want the Union so they can station their nukes on the Clyde...
Given the current electoral fortunes, in the Con vs Lab battle, Labour would be in a better position electorally if both the 6 counties and Scotland were outwith the UK. It would also solve future rUK/EU border issues - IMO, the best place for such a border is along the Cheviots.

Okaaaay...

Let's do the maths here.

Without Scotland and Northern Ireland in 2017 there would have been 569 seats at Westminster (ceteris paribus, but let's assume that for the moment).

Of these, the Tories would have won 305. That would give them a majority of 41.

But it seems unlikely there would have been an election, as in 2015 the Tories would have won 330 seats, a majority of 91.

No, I can't see how this benefits Labour if I'm totally honest. From where I'm sitting it looks like they manage to end up even further away from power.

malcolmg · August 2018

CarlottaVance said:
Without a Scottish recovery the prospect of a Labour majority is very remote indeed.

In his heart of hearts I wouldn’t be surprised if Corbyn didn’t secretly support the Scots “freedom fighters” against their English “Imperialist oppressors”....who only want the Union so they can station their nukes on the Clyde...

You forgot they also take all our money and resources as well

Theuniondivvie · August 2018

hamiltonace said:
Labour lack a strong scottish political leader. As such little chance of major revival.

That's true but the lack of likely up & comers is just as telling. SLab's benches are stuffed with hasbeens who oversaw their decline, including 3 ex-leaders out of 22 msps (let's not even start on acting leaders).

saddo · August 2018

And the Tories will have removed May before the next election, assuming she hasn't stitched us all up with her BINO on steroids deal before then

Foxy · August 2018

While I appreciate Mike's point, if we look at the marginal seats on current boundaries, taking 50 odd Tory seats requires overturning majorities of up to 3000. Difficult, but not impossible and gaining just a handful would put the Tories out of power.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8067

Some of the culture war stuff will be irrelevant in these places, but the big issues in that culture war are Brexit and generational inequality. Trans-gender politics and internecine disputes over wreaths are not going to shift much either way.

malcolmg · August 2018

MarqueeMark said:
We don't hear about Scottish pandas these days. I do hope they are well....

Flourishing apart from reproducing.

Casino_Royale · August 2018

DavidL said:

Casino_Royale said:
You could swap 30 SNP seats for 30 Labour ones and it wouldn't get them much closer to power, other than making whipping nominally easier and a majority more arthimetically feasible.

The real game is in Labour swiping a good 50 English marginals.
You are taking SNP support for granted. That would be a mistake that Labour would regret. The price would be high, certainly a lot higher than a mere billion.

I’m saying, as a Conservative, that whether those seats are SNP or Labour I couldn’t care less.

daodao · August 2018

SquareRoot said:
"Without a Scottish recovery the prospect of a Labour majority is very remote indeed. "

Comforting words indeed. We don't want the lunatic running the asylum.

Which is what would happen if there is a blonde bombshell from NY running (opponents might say ruining) the UK as well as the USA. That is far more likely than JC as PM.

ydoethur · August 2018

DavidL said:
The collapse of Scottish Labour culminating in 2015 probably remains the most remarkable political outcome I have witnessed. Scottish Labour were the establishment. Pretty much everyone who worked in the public sector in Scotland in any kind of position would by default be a Labour supporter. It was an essential part of the career. Of course the public sector has been and remains more dominant in Scotland than the UK average and a depressingly high percentage of the private sector is totally dependent upon the public sector so many in the private sector literally wore their allegiance on their collar to facilitate relationships as well.

The achievement of the SNP in firstly taking Holyrood away from Labour and then wiping out their dominance both in local government and at Westminster is truly a remarkable one. Labour supporters still employed in our public sector keep pretty quiet about it. Increasingly, and inevitably, after 10 years in power SNP apparatchiks have largely replaced Labour ones whether that is on Health Boards, as Judges, Sheriffs, public sector office holders or whatever. They are going to be hard to shift. Not all of these supporters necessarily want independence but they do support the SNP as the party best able to represent Scotland, something Scottish Labour forgot to do.

What we had previously was a combination of a working class taken for granted and a middle class that provided a more than slightly bossy leadership whilst feathering their own nest to a remarkable degree. Now the middle class supporters for Labour have gone, most to the SNP but quite a few to the Tories. The working classes of Strathclyde, Lothian and Dundee have been sold the independence fantasy. What can Labour offer to bring them back when they seem so inept in Westminster and unimportant at Holyrood?

With the loss of Carwyn Jones and his possible replacement by any one of a number of different total muppets, Wales is potentially a place where Labour could suffer a sudden collapse as well. At the last election for the Assembly two years ago they got just 34/31% of the vote, although the rigged, oops, proportional d'Hondt system meant they still got 29 seats.

The great advantage Labour in Wales have had over Labour in Scotland is that the opposition is very evenly divided and geographically entrenched. Tories won't vote for Plaid in the old Marcher areas, Plaid voters in the Cymraeg heartlands will not vote for Tories. The Western Valleys might go Plaid, never Tory, the north east is fallow for Plaid given its links to England. If however UKIP's votes switch blue next time and Labour leaks support on the left to Plaid, a sudden drop to third is not at all out of the question - and would tilt things further against Labour at Westminster.

It is worth remembering also that anything said about Scottish Labour's umm, failings could be said a thousandfold about their Welsh counterparts.

JosiasJessop · August 2018

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.

I did a fair amount of walking and driving around that area, and it really isn't 'beyond depressing'.

If you want that, just look at Bedford...

Agree about the need for well-paid jobs; but something that turns what was a bit of an industrial wasteland (from my previous limited visit, and the maps) into one of Scotland's main free visitor attractions can only be good.

No_Offence_Alan · August 2018

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.

When are they making the rest of the chess set?

JosiasJessop · August 2018

No_Offence_Alan said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
When are they making the rest of the chess set?

LOL!

Another highlight for me was walking through the long canal tunnel behind Falkirk High station. There aren't many long canal tunnels you can walk through, and this one was fairly spectacular, with just the right amount of lighting. Very atmospheric.

I also really enjoyed walking down the Kelvin into Glasgow - though the European championship road races meant some interesting diversions.

SquareRoot · August 2018

daodao said:

SquareRoot said:
"Without a Scottish recovery the prospect of a Labour majority is very remote indeed. "

Comforting words indeed. We don't want the lunatic running the asylum.
Which is what would happen if there is a blonde bombshell from NY running (opponents might say ruining) the UK as well as the USA. That is far more likely than JC as PM.

Diversionary tactic.

I was talking about Corbyn, not anyone else.

FF43 · August 2018

At the last election, the SCONs cleverly built up a Unionist tactical vote just as the SNP monolith started to fray at the edges. Not she they will repeat the trick next time. Labour will look to win back voters that switched to SNP following the independence referendum. The situation is more fluid than it looks.

SquareRoot · August 2018

Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp

ydoethur · August 2018

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.

I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.

ydoethur · August 2018

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp

No longer his Number One?

OldKingCole · August 2018

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.

Pottery fanatics?

MarqueeMark · August 2018

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp

"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!

JosiasJessop · August 2018

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.

Splutters!

Uccheter! Beautiful? You need a sanity check.

(Mind you, I did go to school there for a few years.)

MarqueeMark · August 2018

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.

Alton Towers, surely?

ydoethur · August 2018

OldKingCole said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.
Pottery fanatics?

Well, when I remembered that it included the Potteries museum, the Etruria gardens and an extensive canal network, it made much more sense.

daodao · August 2018

ydoethur said:

With the loss of Carwyn Jones and his possible replacement by any one of a number of different total muppets, Wales is potentially a place where Labour could suffer a sudden collapse as well. At the last election for the Assembly two years ago they got just 34/31% of the vote, although the rigged, oops, proportional d'Hondt system meant they still got 29 seats.

The great advantage Labour in Wales have had over Labour in Scotland is that the opposition is very evenly divided and geographically entrenched. Tories won't vote for Plaid in the old Marcher areas, Plaid voters in the Cymraeg heartlands will not vote for Tories. The Western Valleys might go Plaid, never Tory, the north east is fallow for Plaid given its links to England. If however UKIP's votes switch blue next time and Labour leaks support on the left to Plaid, a sudden drop to third is not at all out of the question - and would tilt things further against Labour at Westminster.

It is worth remembering also that anything said about Scottish Labour's umm, failings could be said a thousandfold about their Welsh counterparts.

It's a tad over-optimistic to suggest that Labour could end up in third place in Wales.

Both PC and the Tories are loathed in different parts of the country, even more than you suggest. British Wales, which includes NE Wales, areas bordering the Marches, Newport, Cardiff (other than where the Crachach live) and little England (the ex-Norman areas of the Vale of Glamorgan, south Gower and Pembrokeshire south of the Landsker) will never vote PC. The ex-mining areas of south Wales and around Wrexham, and much of Y Fro Gymraeg, will never vote Tory.

Plaid's support isn't confined to the Western Valleys. Leanne Wood currently represents the Rhondda and it also has significant support in Caerphilly borough. In 1999, PC even won Islwyn in the first Welsh assembly elections, much to Neil Kinnock's shock - he formerly represented this seat at Westminster.

ydoethur · August 2018

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.
Splutters!

Uccheter! Beautiful? You need a sanity check.

(Mind you, I did go to school there for a few years.)

*Pedant hat ON*

Denstone is not in Uttoxeter. It is in Denstone. The clue is in the name.

*Pedant hat OFF*

JosiasJessop · August 2018

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.
Splutters!

Uccheter! Beautiful? You need a sanity check.

(Mind you, I did go to school there for a few years.)
*Pedant hat ON*

Denstone is not in Uttoxeter. It is in Denstone. The clue is in the name.

*Pedant hat OFF*

I know. Before Denstone I went to Oldfields Hall in Uttoxeter. One of two state schools I attended. (fx: blows raspberry)

ydoethur · August 2018

daodao said:
It's a tad over-optimistic to suggest that Labour could end up in third place in Wales.

Welsh Labour are in every way in a worse mess than Scottish Labour in 2006.

We made similar comments then. We were all wrong.

Admittedly Scotland was less of a Labour heartland than Wales - a mere fifty years, instead of 100 - but it's not quite as incredible as you seem to think.

ydoethur · August 2018

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.
Splutters!

Uccheter! Beautiful? You need a sanity check.

(Mind you, I did go to school there for a few years.)
*Pedant hat ON*

Denstone is not in Uttoxeter. It is in Denstone. The clue is in the name.

*Pedant hat OFF*
I know. Before Denstone I went to Oldfields Hall in Uttoxeter. One of two state schools I attended. (fx: blows raspberry)

In that case, all is forgiven!

MarqueeMark · August 2018

daodao said:
The ex-mining areas of south Wales and around Wrexham, and much of Y Fro Gymraeg, will never vote Tory.

Wilst it may indeed be one of the last places to fall, it is worth noting the extent to which former mining areas have lost their attachment to Labour. Politically, it would now be hard to divine there were extensive coalfields in Kent, Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire.....

OldKingCole · August 2018

daodao said:

ydoethur said:

With the loss of Carwyn Jones and his possible replacement by any one of a number of different total muppets, Wales is potentially a place where Labour could suffer a sudden collapse as well. At the last election for the Assembly two years ago they got just 34/31% of the vote, although the rigged, oops, proportional d'Hondt system meant they still got 29 seats.

The great advantage Labour in Wales have had over Labour in Scotland is that the opposition is very evenly divided and geographically entrenched. Tories won't vote for Plaid in the old Marcher areas, Plaid voters in the Cymraeg heartlands will not vote for Tories. The Western Valleys might go Plaid, never Tory, the north east is fallow for Plaid given its links to England. If however UKIP's votes switch blue next time and Labour leaks support on the left to Plaid, a sudden drop to third is not at all out of the question - and would tilt things further against Labour at Westminster.

It is worth remembering also that anything said about Scottish Labour's umm, failings could be said a thousandfold about their Welsh counterparts.
It's a tad over-optimistic to suggest that Labour could end up in third place in Wales.

Both PC and the Tories are loathed in different parts of the country, even more than you suggest. British Wales, which includes NE Wales, areas bordering the Marches, Newport, Cardiff (other than where the Crachach live) and little England (the ex-Norman areas of the Vale of Glamorgan, south Gower and Pembrokeshire south of the Landsker) will never vote PC. The ex-mining areas of south Wales and around Wrexham, and much of Y Fro Gymraeg, will never vote Tory.

Plaid's support isn't confined to the Western Valleys. Leanne Wood currently represents the Rhondda and it also has significant support in Caerphilly borough. In 1999, PC even won Islwyn in the first Welsh assembly elections, much to Neil Kinnock's shock - he formerly represented this seat at Westminster.

While the LD’s (or Libs) don’t have a Welsh Westminster seat for the first time ever and only one in the Sennedd, is there any prospect of a revival for them?

kle4 · August 2018

Nigelb said:
Trump has at last achieved bipartisan consensus, going all the way back to those who served under Reagan:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/the-nations-top-former-intelligence-officials-issue-a-stunning-rebuke-to-trump.html?

Pretty remarkable, but we know how the Trumpian/corbynite tendency tend to react to such things. I'm sure Trumps is handling it well. Never seen someone with such thin skin.

daodao · August 2018

MarqueeMark said:

daodao said:
The ex-mining areas of south Wales and around Wrexham, and much of Y Fro Gymraeg, will never vote Tory.
Whilst it may indeed be one of the last places to fall, it is worth noting the extent to which former mining areas have lost their attachment to Labour. Politically, it would now be hard to divine there were extensive coalfields in Kent, Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire.....

Or Copeland, Poynton (near Macclesfield) and Staffordshire (Cannock/Stoke South). But Wales is not England.

daodao · August 2018

OldKingCole said:

daodao said:

ydoethur said:

With the loss of Carwyn Jones and his possible replacement by any one of a number of different total muppets, Wales is potentially a place where Labour could suffer a sudden collapse as well. At the last election for the Assembly two years ago they got just 34/31% of the vote, although the rigged, oops, proportional d'Hondt system meant they still got 29 seats.

The great advantage Labour in Wales have had over Labour in Scotland is that the opposition is very evenly divided and geographically entrenched. Tories won't vote for Plaid in the old Marcher areas, Plaid voters in the Cymraeg heartlands will not vote for Tories. The Western Valleys might go Plaid, never Tory, the north east is fallow for Plaid given its links to England. If however UKIP's votes switch blue next time and Labour leaks support on the left to Plaid, a sudden drop to third is not at all out of the question - and would tilt things further against Labour at Westminster.

It is worth remembering also that anything said about Scottish Labour's umm, failings could be said a thousandfold about their Welsh counterparts.
It's a tad over-optimistic to suggest that Labour could end up in third place in Wales.

Both PC and the Tories are loathed in different parts of the country, even more than you suggest. British Wales, which includes NE Wales, areas bordering the Marches, Newport, Cardiff (other than where the Crachach live) and little England (the ex-Norman areas of the Vale of Glamorgan, south Gower and Pembrokeshire south of the Landsker) will never vote PC. The ex-mining areas of south Wales and around Wrexham, and much of Y Fro Gymraeg, will never vote Tory.

Plaid's support isn't confined to the Western Valleys. Leanne Wood currently represents the Rhondda and it also has significant support in Caerphilly borough. In 1999, PC even won Islwyn in the first Welsh assembly elections, much to Neil Kinnock's shock - he formerly represented this seat at Westminster.
While the LD’s (or Libs) don’t have a Welsh Westminster seat for the first time ever and only one in the Sennedd, is there any prospect of a revival for them?

Even if the LDs make a gain or two, there will only ever be a minor player in Welsh politics.

ydoethur · August 2018

OldKingCole said:
While the LD’s (or Libs) don’t have a Welsh Westminster seat for the first time ever and only one in the Sennedd, is there any prospect of a revival for them?

You never say never, but it's a long way back. They had a tradition of strength in Mid-Wales, which has now mostly gone Tory, and a base among students in the major university seats - in practice those were Cardiff Central and Ceredigion (Ceredigion combining those two features, of course) which tuition fees have snuffed out.

I also struggle to see what message they would put out that's sufficiently distinct from the Tories yet wouldn't get swallowed up by the right of Plaid or Labour. There isn't any sort of hopeful niche for them as a fourth party in Wales the way there would be as a third party in England.

They might retake Ceredigion at Westminster next time but I can't see them getting more than a couple of assembly members in the foreseeable future.

Their best bet would have been as a competent party of local government (which really would set them apart) but as noted upthread the electoral system rules that out (not that I felt their rule in Ceredigion was enlightened or effective, tbh).

kle4 · August 2018

daodao said:

OldKingCole said:

daodao said:

ydoethur said:

With the loss of Carwyn Jones and his possible replacement by any one of a number of different total muppets, Wales is potentially a place where Labour could suffer a sudden collapse as well. At the last election for the Assembly two years ago they got just 34/31% of the vote, although the rigged, oops, proportional d'Hondt system meant they still got 29 seats.

The great advantage Labour in Wales have had over Labour in Scotland is that the opposition is very evenly divided and geographically entrenched. Tories won't vote for Plaid in the old Marcher areas, Plaid voters in the Cymraeg heartlands will not vote for Tories. The Western Valleys might go Plaid, never Tory, the north east is fallow for Plaid given its links to England. If however UKIP's votes switch blue next time and Labour leaks support on the left to Plaid, a sudden drop to third is not at all out of the question - and would tilt things further against Labour at Westminster.

It is worth remembering also that anything said about Scottish Labour's umm, failings could be said a thousandfold about their Welsh counterparts.
It's a tad over-optimistic to suggest that Labour could end up in third place in Wales.

Both PC and the Tories are loathed in different parts of the country, even more than you suggest. British Wales, which includes NE Wales, areas bordering the Marches, Newport, Cardiff (other than where the Crachach live) and little England (the ex-Norman areas of the Vale of Glamorgan, south Gower and Pembrokeshire south of the Landsker) will never vote PC. The ex-mining areas of south Wales and around Wrexham, and much of Y Fro Gymraeg, will never vote Tory.

Plaid's support isn't confined to the Western Valleys. Leanne Wood currently represents the Rhondda and it also has significant support in Caerphilly borough. In 1999, PC even won Islwyn in the first Welsh assembly elections, much to Neil Kinnock's shock - he formerly represented this seat at Westminster.
While the LD’s (or Libs) don’t have a Welsh Westminster seat for the first time ever and only one in the Sennedd, is there any prospect of a revival for them?
Even if the LDs make a gain or two, there will only ever be a minor player in Welsh politics.

Probably, but while there's nothing inevitable about labour losing its grip on Wales, nor anything necessarily immediate, surely there are still potential openings which raise the potential for it.

FrankBooth · August 2018

DavidL - That's a very depressing read. Why haven't the Tories made more of it and why hasn't Labour shown any remorse? I'm assuming your analysis is correct of course.

It might have benefited Welsh Labour by having the shock of 1999 in the valleys. I'd like to think that whilst there is a likely left-leaning establishment in Wales there is also a sense that Labour dominance isn't necessarily the best thing. I remember one TV journalist saying to me that she hugs her Tories close. They just aren't the same threat that they are at UK level.

By way of another anecdote a few years ago when working in a local council electoral office I was instructed to shred all the late arriving postal votes. The electoral officer was not happy to simply put them in the 'secure' bin. Made me a little paranoid.

OldKingCole · August 2018

ydoethur said:

OldKingCole said:
While the LD’s (or Libs) don’t have a Welsh Westminster seat for the first time ever and only one in the Sennedd, is there any prospect of a revival for them?
You never say never, but it's a long way back. They had a tradition of strength in Mid-Wales, which has now mostly gone Tory, and a base among students in the major university seats - in practice those were Cardiff Central and Ceredigion (Ceredigion combining those two features, of course) which tuition fees have snuffed out.

I also struggle to see what message they would put out that's sufficiently distinct from the Tories yet wouldn't get swallowed up by the right of Plaid or Labour. There isn't any sort of hopeful niche for them as a fourth party in Wales the way there would be as a third party in England.

They might retake Ceredigion at Westminster next time but I can't see them getting more than a couple of assembly members in the foreseeable future.

Their best bet would have been as a competent party of local government (which really would set them apart) but as noted upthread the electoral system rules that out (not that I felt their rule in Ceredigion was enlightened or effective, tbh).

Hmmm. Suspect, as soneone said before that Glyn Davies is in in Montgomery for as long as he wants to be, but Brecon & Radnor has changed hands several times. in recent times.

ydoethur · August 2018

OldKingCole said:

ydoethur said:

OldKingCole said:
While the LD’s (or Libs) don’t have a Welsh Westminster seat for the first time ever and only one in the Sennedd, is there any prospect of a revival for them?
You never say never, but it's a long way back. They had a tradition of strength in Mid-Wales, which has now mostly gone Tory, and a base among students in the major university seats - in practice those were Cardiff Central and Ceredigion (Ceredigion combining those two features, of course) which tuition fees have snuffed out.

I also struggle to see what message they would put out that's sufficiently distinct from the Tories yet wouldn't get swallowed up by the right of Plaid or Labour. There isn't any sort of hopeful niche for them as a fourth party in Wales the way there would be as a third party in England.

They might retake Ceredigion at Westminster next time but I can't see them getting more than a couple of assembly members in the foreseeable future.

Their best bet would have been as a competent party of local government (which really would set them apart) but as noted upthread the electoral system rules that out (not that I felt their rule in Ceredigion was enlightened or effective, tbh).
Hmmm. Suspect, as soneone said before that Glyn Davies is in in Montgomery for as long as he wants to be, but Brecon & Radnor has changed hands several times. in recent times.

Yes. That in itself though is a sign of the LD's waning strength in the area. When they didn't stand candidates there in the 1950s it was a safeish Labour seat. Once they began to do so again in the 1970s they took it back very quickly and it remained marginal even when they briefly lost it in 1992. But now they are standing candidates and losing votes. It isn't an encouraging combination.

Edit - don't forget Montgomery now seems safe at Assembly level for the Tories as well, and that they have a stronghold on the council wards. I think there was only one ward they contested last year where they were not first or second.

Nigelb · August 2018

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.
Splutters!

Uccheter! Beautiful? You need a sanity check.

(Mind you, I did go to school there for a few years.)
*Pedant hat ON*

Denstone is not in Uttoxeter. It is in Denstone. The clue is in the name.

*Pedant hat OFF*
I know. Before Denstone I went to Oldfields Hall in Uttoxeter. One of two state schools I attended. (fx: blows raspberry)
In that case, all is forgiven!

Checking Wikipedia, it's clear that the standard of education in Uttoxeter has never been of the best:
"Uttoxeter's name has had at least 79 spellings since it was mentioned in the Domesday Book as "Wotocheshede"..."

Nigelb · August 2018

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!

This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...

Cookie · August 2018

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.

That doesn't sound right. ALton Towers, surely?

MarqueeMark · August 2018

daodao said:

MarqueeMark said:

daodao said:
The ex-mining areas of south Wales and around Wrexham, and much of Y Fro Gymraeg, will never vote Tory.
Whilst it may indeed be one of the last places to fall, it is worth noting the extent to which former mining areas have lost their attachment to Labour. Politically, it would now be hard to divine there were extensive coalfields in Kent, Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire.....
Or Copeland, Poynton (near Macclesfield) and Staffordshire (Cannock/Stoke South). But Wales is not England.

I could have added Lancashire and Yorkshire to the list - even Blyth is not the stronghold it once was. As I acknowledge, the muscle memory of putting an X against Labour may be the last to disappear in Wales. But it will wane.

(Unless the Welsh valleys are full of anti-semites!

)

GarethoftheVale2 · August 2018

ydoethur said:

OldKingCole said:
While the LD’s (or Libs) don’t have a Welsh Westminster seat for the first time ever and only one in the Sennedd, is there any prospect of a revival for them?
You never say never, but it's a long way back. They had a tradition of strength in Mid-Wales, which has now mostly gone Tory, and a base among students in the major university seats - in practice those were Cardiff Central and Ceredigion (Ceredigion combining those two features, of course) which tuition fees have snuffed out.

I also struggle to see what message they would put out that's sufficiently distinct from the Tories yet wouldn't get swallowed up by the right of Plaid or Labour. There isn't any sort of hopeful niche for them as a fourth party in Wales the way there would be as a third party in England.

They might retake Ceredigion at Westminster next time but I can't see them getting more than a couple of assembly members in the foreseeable future.

Their best bet would have been as a competent party of local government (which really would set them apart) but as noted upthread the electoral system rules that out (not that I felt their rule in Ceredigion was enlightened or effective, tbh).

The proposed new Ceredigion and Preseli seat would be a 4 marginal with LDs in 3rd behind Plaid and Con.

ydoethur · August 2018

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...

As responses go, that's a weird one. Why would he take offence at that?

ydoethur · August 2018

GarethoftheVale2 said:

ydoethur said:

OldKingCole said:
While the LD’s (or Libs) don’t have a Welsh Westminster seat for the first time ever and only one in the Sennedd, is there any prospect of a revival for them?
You never say never, but it's a long way back. They had a tradition of strength in Mid-Wales, which has now mostly gone Tory, and a base among students in the major university seats - in practice those were Cardiff Central and Ceredigion (Ceredigion combining those two features, of course) which tuition fees have snuffed out.

I also struggle to see what message they would put out that's sufficiently distinct from the Tories yet wouldn't get swallowed up by the right of Plaid or Labour. There isn't any sort of hopeful niche for them as a fourth party in Wales the way there would be as a third party in England.

They might retake Ceredigion at Westminster next time but I can't see them getting more than a couple of assembly members in the foreseeable future.

Their best bet would have been as a competent party of local government (which really would set them apart) but as noted upthread the electoral system rules that out (not that I felt their rule in Ceredigion was enlightened or effective, tbh).
The proposed new Ceredigion and Preseli seat would be a 4 marginal with LDs in 3rd behind Plaid and Con.

I was tacitly assuming the boundary review is deader than Boris Johnson's reputation for integrity and competence.

MarqueeMark · August 2018

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...

Corbyn and May do seem to be linked in neither having anything close to a sense of humour.

They might, of course, think there is nothing to laugh about in politics.

Boris can at least have (and indeed, be) a good laugh.....

Nigelb · August 2018

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...
As responses go, that's a weird one. Why would he take offence at that?

He has no sense of humour, has an inflated ego, and can't bear not to be taken seriously ?

ydoethur · August 2018

MarqueeMark said:

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...
Corbyn and May do seem to be linked in neither having anything close to a sense of humour.

They might, of course, think there is nothing to laugh about in politics.

Boris can at least have (and indeed, be) a good laugh.....

I am sure over a pint he's an absolute delight and a class apart as a pub bore.

I'd just rather be nailed to the wall every day for five years than have him as PM of my country.

DavidL · August 2018

FrankBooth said:
DavidL - That's a very depressing read. Why haven't the Tories made more of it and why hasn't Labour shown any remorse? I'm assuming your analysis is correct of course.

It might have benefited Welsh Labour by having the shock of 1999 in the valleys. I'd like to think that whilst there is a likely left-leaning establishment in Wales there is also a sense that Labour dominance isn't necessarily the best thing. I remember one TV journalist saying to me that she hugs her Tories close. They just aren't the same threat that they are at UK level.

By way of another anecdote a few years ago when working in a local council electoral office I was instructed to shred all the late arriving postal votes. The electoral officer was not happy to simply put them in the 'secure' bin. Made me a little paranoid.

I am not sure. For a long time there was a sense of denial. They were so entitled, it was so the natural order of things that it was bound to return to "normal" quite quickly. I have seen a difference after 2017. There is a lot more fatalism. One of the defining features of Scottish Labour, possibly the defining feature during the period of Brown's dominance, was an irrational hatred of Tories. Keeping the Tories out meant keeping the vote together. The Tories' success has come as a real shock, particularly at Holyrood. The Tories getting more votes and seats in Scotland than Labour really was the ultimate humiliation.

This irrational behaviour also diverted Labour from their real challenge for a long time. Even now they haven't really worked out how to fight the SNP. As an example I got leaflets from Labour in 2015 in Dundee West about how important it was to vote Labour to keep the Tories out. In fairness the Tories did well, they did not lose their deposit. The SNP won easily. Labour's leaflets barely mentioned them.

There is also a clear and strong sense of disappointment about Brexit. All of my Labour friends were remainers and very disappointed with Corbyn's ambiguity about it even if they have largely accepted it is inevitable. They don't seem to have a clear idea what their party is for anymore.

ydoethur · August 2018

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...
As responses go, that's a weird one. Why would he take offence at that?
He has no sense of humour, has an inflated ego, and can't bear not to be taken seriously ?

Perhaps we should call him Cornelius Fudge? With Macdonnell as Scrimgeour and Jenny Formby as Pius Thicknesse?

Although I don't see a Kingsley Shacklebolt waiting to rescue us.

daodao · August 2018

MarqueeMark said:

daodao said:

MarqueeMark said:

daodao said:
The ex-mining areas of south Wales and around Wrexham, and much of Y Fro Gymraeg, will never vote Tory.
Whilst it may indeed be one of the last places to fall, it is worth noting the extent to which former mining areas have lost their attachment to Labour. Politically, it would now be hard to divine there were extensive coalfields in Kent, Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire.....
Or Copeland, Poynton (near Macclesfield) and Staffordshire (Cannock/Stoke South). But Wales is not England.
I could have added Lancashire and Yorkshire to the list - even Blyth is not the stronghold it once was. As I acknowledge, the muscle memory of putting an X against Labour may be the last to disappear in Wales. But it will wane.

(Unless the Welsh valleys are full of anti-semites! )

Not now, but the worst anti-semitic riot in GB in the modern era took place in Tredegar and some other Valley towns in 1911. There was a Welsh language film Solomon a Gaenor (nominated for best foreign language film at the 2000 Oscar awards) set against the background of these events.

DavidL · August 2018

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.
Splutters!

Uccheter! Beautiful? You need a sanity check.

(Mind you, I did go to school there for a few years.)
*Pedant hat ON*

Denstone is not in Uttoxeter. It is in Denstone. The clue is in the name.

*Pedant hat OFF*
I know. Before Denstone I went to Oldfields Hall in Uttoxeter. One of two state schools I attended. (fx: blows raspberry)
In that case, all is forgiven!
Checking Wikipedia, it's clear that the standard of education in Uttoxeter has never been of the best:
"Uttoxeter's name has had at least 79 spellings since it was mentioned in the Domesday Book as "Wotocheshede"..."

All those options and they settled on Uttoxeter. Weird.

JosiasJessop · August 2018

Nigelb said:
Checking Wikipedia, it's clear that the standard of education in Uttoxeter has never been of the best:
"Uttoxeter's name has had at least 79 spellings since it was mentioned in the Domesday Book as "Wotocheshede"..."

Locals (at least, some of my extended family who have been near there for generations) call it 'Uttcheter'.

Oddly, there are a fair few places which were known by several names until relatively recently, when the Ordnance Survey arrived and had to 'choose' one for their maps. This caused some problems when understanding dialects, especially in Wales and Scotland. ISTR in a few places 1:50k and 1:25k maps used to have different spellings for a few places!

I bet it also happened in England: I can imagine aconversation in Suffolk:
"So young man, where am I?"
"Hazeboro"
"Ah, okay, how do I spell that?"
"I've no idea."
"Well, I'll just write down 'Happisburgh'.

MarqueeMark · August 2018

JosiasJessop said:

Nigelb said:
Checking Wikipedia, it's clear that the standard of education in Uttoxeter has never been of the best:
"Uttoxeter's name has had at least 79 spellings since it was mentioned in the Domesday Book as "Wotocheshede"..."
Locals (at least, some of my extended family who have been near there for generations) call it 'Uttcheter'.

Oddly, there are a fair few places which were known by several names until relatively recently, when the Ordnance Survey arrived and had to 'choose' one for their maps. This caused some problems when understanding dialects, especially in Wales and Scotland. ISTR in a few places 1:50k and 1:25k maps used to have different spellings for a few places!

I bet it also happened in England: I can imagine aconversation in Suffolk:
"So young man, where am I?"
"Hazeboro"
"Ah, okay, how do I spell that?"
"I've no idea."
"Well, I'll just write down 'Happisburgh'.

And Stukey (Stiffkey).

Slackbladder · August 2018

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...
As responses go, that's a weird one. Why would he take offence at that?
He has no sense of humour, has an inflated ego, and can't bear not to be taken seriously ?
Perhaps we should call him Cornelius Fudge? With Macdonnell as Scrimgeour and Jenny Formby as Pius Thicknesse?

Although I don't see a Kingsley Shacklebolt waiting to rescue us.

Emily Thornberry as Doroles Umbridge is very fitting.

JosiasJessop · August 2018

DavidL said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:
Sort of off-topic:

I've just returned from a trip to Scotland, and I'd just like to compliment the regeneration done in the area of Falkirk / Grangemouth called the Helix, from the Falkirk Wheel to the Kelpies.

It's a fantastic area, and the Kelpies - which I was cynical about when they were announced - are breathtaking in scale and form.

Well done Scotland! I'm sure other areas could learn from it.

http://www.thehelix.co.uk/things-to-do/the-kelpies/

(Though I was amused by a man in the Falkirk Wheel visitors' centre, who proclaimed in a thick John Laurie accent: "It's nae very impressive, is it?")
The Kelpies are an excellent piece of modern architecture and the Falkirk wheel is superb but the areas around Falkirk and much of the town itself is beyond depressing. I was astonished when our Euro devils told me they thought Falkirk was a tourist destination. Despite having interesting things to see it really isn't. Like most of Scotland it desperately needs well paid jobs.
I was very shocked when I learned the largest single number of tourists in Staffordshire visit Stoke on Trent.

Of all the beautiful places they could visit - Lichfield, Cannock Chase, the Moors, Uttoxeter - five million per year go to Stoke.
Splutters!

Uccheter! Beautiful? You need a sanity check.

(Mind you, I did go to school there for a few years.)
*Pedant hat ON*

Denstone is not in Uttoxeter. It is in Denstone. The clue is in the name.

*Pedant hat OFF*
I know. Before Denstone I went to Oldfields Hall in Uttoxeter. One of two state schools I attended. (fx: blows raspberry)
In that case, all is forgiven!
Checking Wikipedia, it's clear that the standard of education in Uttoxeter has never been of the best:
"Uttoxeter's name has had at least 79 spellings since it was mentioned in the Domesday Book as "Wotocheshede"..."
All those options and they settled on Uttoxeter. Weird.

Uttoxeter is a bit weird. Which was why I queried it being called 'beautiful'. Though it did have alt least one famous person associated with it: Samuel Johnson, who paid a penance there for a youthful misdeed.

Oh, and Bamfords was there, which begat JCB ...

And thinking about, Adam Peatty was born there, and my nephew knows him well.

Morris_Dancer · August 2018

Uttoxeter, a documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwSLxuN6v_w

MarqueeMark · August 2018

daodao said:

MarqueeMark said:

daodao said:

MarqueeMark said:

daodao said:
The ex-mining areas of south Wales and around Wrexham, and much of Y Fro Gymraeg, will never vote Tory.
Whilst it may indeed be one of the last places to fall, it is worth noting the extent to which former mining areas have lost their attachment to Labour. Politically, it would now be hard to divine there were extensive coalfields in Kent, Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire.....
Or Copeland, Poynton (near Macclesfield) and Staffordshire (Cannock/Stoke South). But Wales is not England.
I could have added Lancashire and Yorkshire to the list - even Blyth is not the stronghold it once was. As I acknowledge, the muscle memory of putting an X against Labour may be the last to disappear in Wales. But it will wane.

(Unless the Welsh valleys are full of anti-semites! )
Not now, but the worst anti-semitic riot in GB in the modern era took place in Tredegar and some other Valley towns in 1911. There was a Welsh language film Solomon a Gaenor (nominated for best foreign language film at the 2000 Oscar awards) set against the background of these events.

I had not heard of that. Will try and track down the film. Thanks.

ydoethur · August 2018

Slackbladder said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...
As responses go, that's a weird one. Why would he take offence at that?
He has no sense of humour, has an inflated ego, and can't bear not to be taken seriously ?
Perhaps we should call him Cornelius Fudge? With Macdonnell as Scrimgeour and Jenny Formby as Pius Thicknesse?

Although I don't see a Kingsley Shacklebolt waiting to rescue us.
Emily Thornberry as Doroles Umbridge is very fitting.

Gordon Brown as Barty Crouch?

ydoethur · August 2018

JosiasJessop said:
Uttoxeter is a bit weird. Which was why I queried it being called 'beautiful'. Though it did have alt least one famous person associated with it: Samuel Johnson, who paid a penance there for a youthful misdeed.

Oh, and Bamfords was there, which begat JCB ...

And thinking about, Adam Peatty was born there, and my nephew knows him well.

I will admit I was thinking more of the countryside around it - Blithefield, the Bromleys, Denstone, Rocester, the southern edges of the Peak District - Uttoxeter would be a good base for exploring those.

But compared to much of Stoke even London has its good points.

It also has a racecourse.

MarqueeMark · August 2018

ydoethur said:

Slackbladder said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...
As responses go, that's a weird one. Why would he take offence at that?
He has no sense of humour, has an inflated ego, and can't bear not to be taken seriously ?
Perhaps we should call him Cornelius Fudge? With Macdonnell as Scrimgeour and Jenny Formby as Pius Thicknesse?

Although I don't see a Kingsley Shacklebolt waiting to rescue us.
Emily Thornberry as Doroles Umbridge is very fitting.
Gordon Brown as Barty Crouch?

Boris as the dashing - but ultimately useless - Gilderoy Lockhart?

Tissue_Price · August 2018

JosiasJessop said:
Uttoxeter is a bit weird. Which was why I queried it being called 'beautiful'. Though it did have alt least one famous person associated with it: Samuel Johnson, who paid a penance there for a youthful misdeed.

Oh, and Bamfords was there, which begat JCB ...

And thinking about, Adam Peatty was born there, and my nephew knows him well.

We have a Waitrose now as well! (I live in Leigh. My wife is a governor at Denstone.)

ydoethur · August 2018

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

Slackbladder said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...
As responses go, that's a weird one. Why would he take offence at that?
He has no sense of humour, has an inflated ego, and can't bear not to be taken seriously ?
Perhaps we should call him Cornelius Fudge? With Macdonnell as Scrimgeour and Jenny Formby as Pius Thicknesse?

Although I don't see a Kingsley Shacklebolt waiting to rescue us.
Emily Thornberry as Doroles Umbridge is very fitting.
Gordon Brown as Barty Crouch?
Boris as the dashing - but ultimately useless - Gilderoy Lockhart?

It occurs to me I have cast McCluskey as Voldemort.

Is this unfair? Voldemort was after all the most brilliant student of all time.

I have to go. Happy Harry Pottering.

Slackbladder · August 2018

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

Slackbladder said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...
As responses go, that's a weird one. Why would he take offence at that?
He has no sense of humour, has an inflated ego, and can't bear not to be taken seriously ?
Perhaps we should call him Cornelius Fudge? With Macdonnell as Scrimgeour and Jenny Formby as Pius Thicknesse?

Although I don't see a Kingsley Shacklebolt waiting to rescue us.
Emily Thornberry as Doroles Umbridge is very fitting.
Gordon Brown as Barty Crouch?
Boris as the dashing - but ultimately useless - Gilderoy Lockhart?
It occurs to me I have cast McCluskey as Voldemort.

Is this unfair? Voldemort was after all the most brilliant student of all time.

I have to go. Happy Harry Pottering.

I would hvae McCluskey and Burgon as Crabbe and Goyle, both stupid and thick.

Nigel_Foremain · August 2018

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

A lot of seats around Glasgow are, on paper, highly marginal after 2017. They might become more so if the SNP lost control of Holyrood next time out which is possible if not likely (another minority government with tacit Labour/Tory support is the more likely outcome). But Labour look dead with very weak to invisible leadership and a party structure that has fallen into disrepair. Even the Lib Dems seem to have a better grasp of grassroots activism than they do. Any recovery will depend on SNP weakness and is likely to be modest.
To give credit to the SNP they simply did what Labour didnt - put their voters first. I wondered if a sensible altenative might do the same for all those Labour constituencies in the North of England, The signs are there.

Not just there. Much of Labour seems obsessed with trivia about gender equality, sexual orientation and minority groups almost to the exclusion of bread and butter issues that actually affect their supporters. In fairness to Corbyn he shows a better grasp of that than most. Much of what is being promoted as possible alternative leadership/new party are as alienated from the lives of those they purport to represent as Scottish Labour were.
Unfortunately thats not just Labour, the Conservatives are just as bad to the poiint where its not worth voting for them. Corbyn as you rightly say lidentified voters concerns and profited from it. I can only hope that at some stage the Tories might actually realise housing, education and wages trump Levinson, burqas and Boris.

That is only going to happen when they realise that all those issues, and just as importantly business and the economy trump their stupid damaging obsession with leaving the EU

Morris_Dancer · August 2018

Mr. Foremain, having held a referendum, the result cannot simply be ignored. Even if the Conservatives (as it sounds like you would wish them to) went for a second referendum that would still mean the UK/EU relationship would dominate politics.

Theuniondivvie · August 2018

Vile.

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1030372505444397057

Someone should really put the cat amongst the pigeons and ask Jezza if Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

Slackbladder · August 2018

Theuniondivvie said:
Vile.

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1030372505444397057

Someone should really put the cat amongst the pigeons and ask Jezza if Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

does anytone know if Corbyn likes pineapple on pizza?

He's probably for it, he probably thinks it makes it more 'ethnic and authentic' innit....

MaxPB · August 2018

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

Slackbladder said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

MarqueeMark said:

SquareRoot said:
Capt Jean Luc Picard does not like Corbyn either.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-73-years-over-jeremy-corbyn/ar-BBM1ikW?ocid=spartandhp
"We have found a suitable uninhabited planet in the Delta quadrant, Captain. Shall we beam down the Corbynistas?"

"Make it so...."

EDIT: Interesting that the Mirror basically plays the two pieces I put up here yesterday as a compare and contrast..... Good morning, Mirror news desk!
This does seem to capture the essential Corbyn, though:
“Jeremy’s eye caught mine and he said ‘oh you’re looking very well’, and I made some light-hearted riposte along the lines of ‘you can’t judge a book by its cover’.

“For some inexplicable reason, this annoyed him, and he shot back ‘you know, Patrick, you could just have said ‘thank you’ instead of making a joke out of it.”...
As responses go, that's a weird one. Why would he take offence at that?
He has no sense of humour, has an inflated ego, and can't bear not to be taken seriously ?
Perhaps we should call him Cornelius Fudge? With Macdonnell as Scrimgeour and Jenny Formby as Pius Thicknesse?

Although I don't see a Kingsley Shacklebolt waiting to rescue us.
Emily Thornberry as Doroles Umbridge is very fitting.
Gordon Brown as Barty Crouch?
Boris as the dashing - but ultimately useless - Gilderoy Lockhart?
It occurs to me I have cast McCluskey as Voldemort.

Is this unfair? Voldemort was after all the most brilliant student of all time.

I have to go. Happy Harry Pottering.

No, Peter Mandelson is Voldemort.

Morris_Dancer · August 2018

Mr. Slackbladder, some say Corbyn puts milk in first.

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