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Why couldn't remain do that? A credibility issue?not_on_fire said:
OTOH, the Leave campaign demanded a purdah period during the refeare dum and then used this to unleash their myths on EU immigration, knowing that the civil service would not be allowed to issue rebuttals.MarqueeMark said:
The same people who argue loudly that the result was invalid because Leave broke expenditure rules in the Referendum areCarlottaVance said:
So outspending your opponents by more than 50% is absolutely fine.....funnily enough, I doubt you’d advance that argument if LEAVE had done it.surby said:
Totally legally !CarlottaVance said:
And yet, Remain outspent Leave by a significant margin, not even taking into account the government’s contribution. Yet that leaves Remainers curiously unconcerned.....MikeSmithson said:
The outcome was only democratic if the leave side had kept within the spending rules and It didn't. Remember is only required a swing of 1.89% for this to have produced a different outcome. Leave cheated = result should be voidedCarlottaVance said:
Just democracy and the outcome of a plebiscite....AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
Are you seriously arguing that the relatively minor overspend by a side that was significantly outspent invalidates the result?
1. quite happy for there to be no similar level of scrutiny undertaken of the Remain spend and
2. think it a wizard wheeze that the Govt. spent £9m of taxpayers money on Remain propaganda sent to every home just moments before the tight spending limits kicked in.0 -
There was a massive Remain campaign staff who should have been able to do that rebuttal all on their own - if they hadn't been such a collection of chocolate fireguards.not_on_fire said:
OTOH, the Leave campaign demanded a purdah period during the refeare dum and then used this to unleash their myths on EU immigration, knowing that the civil service would not be allowed to issue rebuttals.MarqueeMark said:
The same people who argue loudly that the result was invalid because Leave broke expenditure rules in the Referendum areCarlottaVance said:
So outspending your opponents by more than 50% is absolutely fine.....funnily enough, I doubt you’d advance that argument if LEAVE had done it.surby said:
Totally legally !CarlottaVance said:
And yet, Remain outspent Leave by a significant margin, not even taking into account the government’s contribution. Yet that leaves Remainers curiously unconcerned.....MikeSmithson said:
The outcome was only democratic if the leave side had kept within the spending rules and It didn't. Remember is only required a swing of 1.89% for this to have produced a different outcome. Leave cheated = result should be voidedCarlottaVance said:
Just democracy and the outcome of a plebiscite....AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
Are you seriously arguing that the relatively minor overspend by a side that was significantly outspent invalidates the result?
1. quite happy for there to be no similar level of scrutiny undertaken of the Remain spend and
2. think it a wizard wheeze that the Govt. spent £9m of taxpayers money on Remain propaganda sent to every home just moments before the tight spending limits kicked in.0 -
I agree. But that nasty type of protesting has started to deep into mainstream. Didn’t the Kensington MP Emma dent something organise a picket outside an mp’s house? Or was it a council leader?TheJezziah said:
It's always a fun game when something bad happens and your faction gets blamed for it without any evidence...JosiasJessop said:
Any evidence that it was 'remain' thugs who did it, as opposed to common-or-garden left-wing thugs?Tykejohnno said:I see the thugs of the remain side have attacked JRM family car.
As a remain voter I'd complain but I figure most people will be switching the blame to my other political faction of Labour.
Well I'm blaming angry Cameronites!
Edit: Also of course no politicians should face harassment at their homes or damage to their property, even the actual despicable ones (eg BNP) which JRM is far from. Outside of normal peaceful protest they should be left alone.
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If you actually fight your way through the pointless ads and read the puff piece from this inept "journalist", it doesn't say anything like that at all. The headline bears no representation at all to the content of the article.TheScreamingEagles said:
A forecaster is quoted as saying after a couple more hot days in the south east today and tomorrow it will turn much cooler and more changeable - anyone can read a weather map and tell you that but of course the journalist writes on the assumption most people are thick and need to be told how to breathe, what to wear and which way is up.
It's another prime example of people being told what they want to hear not the truth not the facts just a pre-packaged analysis.
If you want to know why two years after the event people on this site are still banging on about the EU Referendum now you know. Two groups of stupid people both hearing what they wanted to hear and both believing it and considering the other side to be the worst thing since something that was very bad.0 -
Since then we’ve had threats from Leavers to go to war with Spain, Ireland, Belgium, and to do a deal with Putin over the Baltic states.AlastairMeeks said:
He warned of the risk of further military conflict in Europe. It was an entirely fair point that Leavers first traduced and then took their traduction as history.DecrepitJohnL said:
To be fair, it was David Cameron who warned of a third world war. It is hard to read his speech any other way.AlastairMeeks said:
Ah, another example of a Leaver who believes their own lies. The idea that Leaving would triggger Word War 3 was entirely a Leave newspaper invention.Fishing said:
You don't think that Remainers show any signs of hysteria at all? The Emergency Budget that wasn't? The idea that our leaving would somehow trigger World War 3?AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
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Not really. As we see with Trump, selling a lie is easy. Selling the truth is difficult.MarqueeMark said:
There was a massive Remain campaign staff who should have been able to do that rebuttal all on their own - if they hadn't been such a collection of chocolate fireguards.not_on_fire said:
OTOH, the Leave campaign demanded a purdah period during the refeare dum and then used this to unleash their myths on EU immigration, knowing that the civil service would not be allowed to issue rebuttals.MarqueeMark said:
The same people who argue loudly that the result was invalid because Leave broke expenditure rules in the Referendum areCarlottaVance said:
So outspending your opponents by more than 50% is absolutely fine.....funnily enough, I doubt you’d advance that argument if LEAVE had done it.surby said:
Totally legally !CarlottaVance said:
And yet, Remain outspent Leave by a significant margin, not even taking into account the government’s contribution. Yet that leaves Remainers curiously unconcerned.....MikeSmithson said:
The outcome was only democratic if the leave side had kept within the spending rules and It didn't. Remember is only required a swing of 1.89% for this to have produced a different outcome. Leave cheated = result should be voidedCarlottaVance said:
Just democracy and the outcome of a plebiscite....AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
Are you seriously arguing that the relatively minor overspend by a side that was significantly outspent invalidates the result?
1. quite happy for there to be no similar level of scrutiny undertaken of the Remain spend and
2. think it a wizard wheeze that the Govt. spent £9m of taxpayers money on Remain propaganda sent to every home just moments before the tight spending limits kicked in.
This is partly because the truth is often somewhat messy, whilst lies can be pure.0 -
I think politicians should be left in peace at their houses, not sure on the actual laws on that. Would probably extend that to journalists as well.notme said:
I agree. But that nasty type of protesting has started to deep into mainstream. Didn’t the Kensington MP Emma dent something organise a picket outside an mp’s house? Or was it a council leader?TheJezziah said:
It's always a fun game when something bad happens and your faction gets blamed for it without any evidence...JosiasJessop said:
Any evidence that it was 'remain' thugs who did it, as opposed to common-or-garden left-wing thugs?Tykejohnno said:I see the thugs of the remain side have attacked JRM family car.
As a remain voter I'd complain but I figure most people will be switching the blame to my other political faction of Labour.
Well I'm blaming angry Cameronites!
Edit: Also of course no politicians should face harassment at their homes or damage to their property, even the actual despicable ones (eg BNP) which JRM is far from. Outside of normal peaceful protest they should be left alone.0 -
"He was elected deputy leader in 2010 at the same time as Ed Miliband won the leadership".
No he wasn't, Mike.
He was elected deputy leader in 2015, same time as Corbyn. Harman was deputy under Miliband (and Brown).0 -
"could" and "may" are two of a journalist's best friendsstodge said:
If you actually fight your way through the pointless ads and read the puff piece from this inept "journalist", it doesn't say anything like that at all. The headline bears no representation at all to the content of the article.TheScreamingEagles said:
A forecaster is quoted as saying after a couple more hot days in the south east today and tomorrow it will turn much cooler and more changeable - anyone can read a weather map and tell you that but of course the journalist writes on the assumption most people are thick and need to be told how to breathe, what to wear and which way is up.
It's another prime example of people being told what they want to hear not the truth not the facts just a pre-packaged analysis.
If you want to know why two years after the event people on this site are still banging on about the EU Referendum now you know. Two groups of stupid people both hearing what they wanted to hear and both believing it and considering the other side to be the worst thing since something that was very bad.
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Mr Mark,
"There was a massive Remain campaign staff who should have been able to do that rebuttal all on their own - if they hadn't been such a collection of chocolate fireguards."
That would be like the rebuttals about the effect of not imposing transition controls in 2004, resulting in an underestimation by 1000 percent. Or Keith Vaz meeting the sole immigrant from Albania and welcoming him to the UK.
Yes, these were all estimates (guesses) but they hardly inspire confidence.
The truth in hindsight was "search me, guv."
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Can't complain about the 2pm event!TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Three more months of sunshine and then what - the Sun goes out? Quite a scoop he's got there....TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Now that point is a "fair cop"!ydoethur said:
My point being that if both sides have been fined for illegally overspending, it's difficult to argue that it made a material difference to the result.PClipp said:
It isn`t the argument that is dangerous. It is the reality, or at least the perception.ydoethur said:
That's a dangerous argument:MikeSmithson said:
The outcome was only democratic if the leave side had kept within the spending rules and It didn't. Remember is only required a swing of 1.89% for this to have produced a different outcome. Leave cheated = result should be voidedCarlottaVance said:
Just democracy and the outcome of a plebiscite....AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/david-cameron/news/91572/official-eu-remain-campaign
In the good old days, so they tell me, when a criminal was apprehended, his first comment was always "It`s a fair cop!" (as reported in the magistrates`court).
If we have elections, it is essential that the losing side should feel that the process has been fair, and the outcome legitimate. I do not feel this about the Referendum, nor about the last two general elections. I therefore see Mrs May and her government as totally illegitimate. I don`t think OGH goes quite this far.
This is the cue for Mr Mark to appear and to insert some kind of distracting comment.
But what about the sources of the financing?0 -
Meanwhile, DM headline:MarqueeMark said:
Three more months of sunshine and then what - the Sun goes out? Quite a scoop he's got there....TheScreamingEagles said:
"It's make-the-most-of-it Monday! Heatwave will scorch swathes of Britain for one more day before colder weather and storms sweep across the country"0 -
Why not *everyone* should be left in peace at their houses ? Braying mobs rarely achieve anything.TheJezziah said:
I think politicians should be left in peace at their houses, not sure on the actual laws on that. Would probably extend that to journalists as well.notme said:
I agree. But that nasty type of protesting has started to deep into mainstream. Didn’t the Kensington MP Emma dent something organise a picket outside an mp’s house? Or was it a council leader?TheJezziah said:
It's always a fun game when something bad happens and your faction gets blamed for it without any evidence...JosiasJessop said:
Any evidence that it was 'remain' thugs who did it, as opposed to common-or-garden left-wing thugs?Tykejohnno said:I see the thugs of the remain side have attacked JRM family car.
As a remain voter I'd complain but I figure most people will be switching the blame to my other political faction of Labour.
Well I'm blaming angry Cameronites!
Edit: Also of course no politicians should face harassment at their homes or damage to their property, even the actual despicable ones (eg BNP) which JRM is far from. Outside of normal peaceful protest they should be left alone.0 -
Already grey and markedly cooler in Devon today.rottenborough said:
Meanwhile, DM headline:MarqueeMark said:
Three more months of sunshine and then what - the Sun goes out? Quite a scoop he's got there....TheScreamingEagles said:
"It's make-the-most-of-it Monday! Heatwave will scorch swathes of Britain for one more day before colder weather and storms sweep across the country"
Greeted with joy by the dog!
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That would be the same civil service which predicted that annual immigration from Eastern Europe would be between 8,000 and 13,000 ?not_on_fire said:
OTOH, the Leave campaign demanded a purdah period during the refeare dum and then used this to unleash their myths on EU immigration, knowing that the civil service would not be allowed to issue rebuttals.MarqueeMark said:
The same people who argue loudly that the result was invalid because Leave broke expenditure rules in the Referendum areCarlottaVance said:
So outspending your opponents by more than 50% is absolutely fine.....funnily enough, I doubt you’d advance that argument if LEAVE had done it.surby said:
Totally legally !CarlottaVance said:
And yet, Remain outspent Leave by a significant margin, not even taking into account the government’s contribution. Yet that leaves Remainers curiously unconcerned.....MikeSmithson said:
The outcome was only democratic if the leave side had kept within the spending rules and It didn't. Remember is only required a swing of 1.89% for this to have produced a different outcome. Leave cheated = result should be voidedCarlottaVance said:
Just democracy and the outcome of a plebiscite....AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
Are you seriously arguing that the relatively minor overspend by a side that was significantly outspent invalidates the result?
1. quite happy for there to be no similar level of scrutiny undertaken of the Remain spend and
2. think it a wizard wheeze that the Govt. spent £9m of taxpayers money on Remain propaganda sent to every home just moments before the tight spending limits kicked in.
and the same civil service which produced this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
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Here in Essex 20% chance of rain on Thursday then 50% on ....... wouldn’t you know it...... Saturday. Then seems to clear somewhat on Sunday and Monday and back to sunshine on Tuesday (week)MarqueeMark said:
Already grey and markedly cooler in Devon today.rottenborough said:
Meanwhile, DM headline:MarqueeMark said:
Three more months of sunshine and then what - the Sun goes out? Quite a scoop he's got there....TheScreamingEagles said:
"It's make-the-most-of-it Monday! Heatwave will scorch swathes of Britain for one more day before colder weather and storms sweep across the country"
Greeted with joy by the dog!
Plan to sit in the garden and read today, although theres also a session at the gym scheduled.0 -
One of the hidden effects of Euro-membership is that you are much more at the mercy of the markets. In the old days, a government could - to a degree - say f*ck you and turn on the printing presses. (Of course, such a declaration would have long-term consequences, in term of investors' willingness to hand over their cash, but in the short term, governments held the upper hand.) That's not true for an Italy right now, and that is a doubly severe issue for the Italian government because their banking sector is... errr... wobbly.CarlottaVance said:
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There's a fuzzy diagonal line from ~ Scarborough to Dorchester for the weather at the moment. Wales, Scotland, Northwest & Southwest England all cooler than the southeast and east of the country.MarqueeMark said:
Already grey and markedly cooler in Devon today.rottenborough said:
Meanwhile, DM headline:MarqueeMark said:
Three more months of sunshine and then what - the Sun goes out? Quite a scoop he's got there....TheScreamingEagles said:
"It's make-the-most-of-it Monday! Heatwave will scorch swathes of Britain for one more day before colder weather and storms sweep across the country"
Greeted with joy by the dog!0 -
I think most of the criticism of Nigel Farage since the referendum has been pretty fair... He seems to have become a Trump/Putin stooge.Fishing said:
Yes, they have. See the hatred directed at Nigel Farage, then Boris Johnson, then Jacob Rees-Mogg, (usually dragging in Donald Trump somewhere for good measure) for having the effrontery to differ from them on Britain's membership of the EU. And as for the hatred directed at Kate Hoey, Frank Field and Gisela Stuart, it has broken all records. If that isn't hopping from hate figure to hate figure, I don't know what is.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
As for seeking to undermine eery aspect of the civic infrastructure, I don't know how else you'd describe David Cameron's calling of a referendum without any contingency plans with what he'd do if he lost it.0 -
'I think most of the criticism of Nigel Farage’ was always fair.rcs1000 said:
I think most of the criticism of Nigel Farage since the referendum has been pretty fair... He seems to have become a Trump/Putin stooge.Fishing said:
Yes, they have. See the hatred directed at Nigel Farage, then Boris Johnson, then Jacob Rees-Mogg, (usually dragging in Donald Trump somewhere for good measure) for having the effrontery to differ from them on Britain's membership of the EU. And as for the hatred directed at Kate Hoey, Frank Field and Gisela Stuart, it has broken all records. If that isn't hopping from hate figure to hate figure, I don't know what is.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
As for seeking to undermine eery aspect of the civic infrastructure, I don't know how else you'd describe David Cameron's calling of a referendum without any contingency plans with what he'd do if he lost it.0 -
I don’t think this is a valid criticism - purdah is a standard electoral practice. They even have it for our local town councilnot_on_fire said:
OTOH, the Leave campaign demanded a purdah period during the refeare dum and then used this to unleash their myths on EU immigration, knowing that the civil service would not be allowed to issue rebuttals.MarqueeMark said:
The same people who argue loudly that the result was invalid because Leave broke expenditure rules in the Referendum areCarlottaVance said:
So outspending your opponents by more than 50% is absolutely fine.....funnily enough, I doubt you’d advance that argument if LEAVE had done it.surby said:
Totally legally !CarlottaVance said:
And yet, Remain outspent Leave by a significant margin, not even taking into account the government’s contribution. Yet that leaves Remainers curiously unconcerned.....MikeSmithson said:
The outcome was only democratic if the leave side had kept within the spending rules and It didn't. Remember is only required a swing of 1.89% for this to have produced a different outcome. Leave cheated = result should be voidedCarlottaVance said:
Just democracy and the outcome of a plebiscite....AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
Are you seriously arguing that the relatively minor overspend by a side that was significantly outspent invalidates the result?
1. quite happy for there to be no similar level of scrutiny undertaken of the Remain spend and
2. think it a wizard wheeze that the Govt. spent £9m of taxpayers money on Remain propaganda sent to every home just moments before the tight spending limits kicked in.0 -
+1JosiasJessop said:
Not really. As we see with Trump, selling a lie is easy. Selling the truth is difficult.MarqueeMark said:
There was a massive Remain campaign staff who should have been able to do that rebuttal all on their own - if they hadn't been such a collection of chocolate fireguards.not_on_fire said:
OTOH, the Leave campaign demanded a purdah period during the refeare dum and then used this to unleash their myths on EU immigration, knowing that the civil service would not be allowed to issue rebuttals.MarqueeMark said:
The same people who argue loudly that the result was invalid because Leave broke expenditure rules in the Referendum areCarlottaVance said:
So outspending your opponents by more than 50% is absolutely fine.....funnily enough, I doubt you’d advance that argument if LEAVE had done it.surby said:
Totally legally !CarlottaVance said:
And yet, Remain outspent Leave by a significant margin, not even taking into account the government’s contribution. Yet that leaves Remainers curiously unconcerned.....MikeSmithson said:
The outcome was only democratic if the leave side had kept within the spending rules and It didn't. Remember is only required a swing of 1.89% for this to have produced a different outcome. Leave cheated = result should be voidedCarlottaVance said:
Just democracy and the outcome of a plebiscite....AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
Are you seriously arguing that the relatively minor overspend by a side that was significantly outspent invalidates the result?
1. quite happy for there to be no similar level of scrutiny undertaken of the Remain spend and
2. think it a wizard wheeze that the Govt. spent £9m of taxpayers money on Remain propaganda sent to every home just moments before the tight spending limits kicked in.
This is partly because the truth is often somewhat messy, whilst lies can be pure.0 -
Citation needed for that statutory duty to warn. I am guessing it's a fiction loosely themed on Bagehot on the monarchy.TheScreamingEagles said:
I pointed out the other day The Governor of the Bank of England has a statutory obligation to ensure financial stability and warn when that is at risk.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, worth pointing out that Fox is a political animal and the Governor of the Bank of England ought not be.
Also, people take Carney more seriously...
Dr. Foxy, alarming to see the damage done to Mogg's property, and a bookshop under attack.
He was doing his job.
Just like when his predecessor warned about the dangers of too much government borrowing during the last Labour government.
https://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2009/07/crisis-king-bank-governor
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8469373.stm0 -
Hey, west of that line, we are ALWAYS cooler.Pulpstar said:
There's a fuzzy diagonal line from ~ Scarborough to Dorchester for the weather at the moment. Wales, Scotland, Northwest & Southwest England all cooler than the southeast and east of the country.MarqueeMark said:
Already grey and markedly cooler in Devon today.rottenborough said:
Meanwhile, DM headline:MarqueeMark said:
Three more months of sunshine and then what - the Sun goes out? Quite a scoop he's got there....TheScreamingEagles said:
"It's make-the-most-of-it Monday! Heatwave will scorch swathes of Britain for one more day before colder weather and storms sweep across the country"
Greeted with joy by the dog!
Oh, the weather you mean.....0 -
"A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes" it seems was not Mark Twain. More on the origins of this quote than you could ever want, here:JosiasJessop said:
Not really. As we see with Trump, selling a lie is easy. Selling the truth is difficult.MarqueeMark said:
There was a massive Remain campaign staff who should have been able to do that rebuttal all on their own - if they hadn't been such a collection of chocolate fireguards.not_on_fire said:
OTOH, the Leave campaign demanded a purdah period during the refeare dum and then used this to unleash their myths on EU immigration, knowing that the civil service would not be allowed to issue rebuttals.MarqueeMark said:
The same people who argue loudly that the result was invalid because Leave broke expenditure rules in the Referendum areCarlottaVance said:
So outspending your opponents by more than 50% is absolutely fine.....funnily enough, I doubt you’d advance that argument if LEAVE had done it.surby said:
Totally legally !CarlottaVance said:
And yet, Remain outspent Leave by a significant margin, not even taking into account the government’s contribution. Yet that leaves Remainers curiously unconcerned.....MikeSmithson said:
The outcome was only democratic if the leave side had kept within the spending rules and It didn't. Remember is only required a swing of 1.89% for this to have produced a different outcome. Leave cheated = result should be voidedCarlottaVance said:
Just democracy and the outcome of a plebiscite....AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
Are you seriously arguing that the relatively minor overspend by a side that was significantly outspent invalidates the result?
1. quite happy for there to be no similar level of scrutiny undertaken of the Remain spend and
2. think it a wizard wheeze that the Govt. spent £9m of taxpayers money on Remain propaganda sent to every home just moments before the tight spending limits kicked in.
This is partly because the truth is often somewhat messy, whilst lies can be pure.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/07/13/truth/0 -
I voted remain on the assumption that the dire financial warnings were accurate. The more sophisticated lie from the remain side was in the assumptions made to come to a dire conclusion.kjh said:
+1JosiasJessop said:
Not really. As we see with Trump, selling a lie is easy. Selling the truth is difficult.MarqueeMark said:
There was a massive Remain campaign staff who should have been able to do that rebuttal all on their own - if they hadn't been such a collection of chocolate fireguards.not_on_fire said:
OTOH, the Leave campaign demanded a purdah period during the refeare dum and then used this to unleash their myths on EU immigration, knowing that the civil service would not be allowed to issue rebuttals.MarqueeMark said:
The same people who argue loudly that the result was invalid because Leave broke expenditure rules in the Referendum areCarlottaVance said:surby said:CarlottaVance said:MikeSmithson said:
The outcome was only democratic if the leave side had kept within the spending rules and It didn't. Remember is only required a swing of 1.89% for this to have produced a different outcome. Leave cheated = result should be voidedCarlottaVance said:
Just democracy and the outcome of a plebiscite....AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
1. quite happy for there to be no similar level of scrutiny undertaken of the Remain spend and
2. think it a wizard wheeze that the Govt. spent £9m of taxpayers money on Remain propaganda sent to every home just moments before the tight spending limits kicked in.
This is partly because the truth is often somewhat messy, whilst lies can be pure.
You still hear some of the nonsense - I had a conversation with someone recently with a remainer who thought that if we had no deal then there would be no trade at all with the EU! They looked at me incredulously when I pointed out WTO rules meant we could carry on trading, and we did this with a lot of the rest of the world. I’m pretty sure they didn’t believe me because it didn’t fit in with their own narrative.
0 -
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...0 -
No doubt you also explained how the customs infrastructure would magically be able to cope with processing such an increased workload without major disruption and how business models that rely on frictionless trade would carry on regardless.Nemtynakht said:I voted remain on the assumption that the dire financial warnings were accurate. The more sophisticated lie from the remain side was in the assumptions made to come to a dire conclusion.
You still hear some of the nonsense - I had a conversation with someone recently with a remainer who thought that if we had no deal then there would be no trade at all with the EU! They looked at me incredulously when I pointed out WTO rules meant we could carry on trading, and we did this with a lot of the rest of the world. I’m pretty sure they didn’t believe me because it didn’t fit in with their own narrative.
The Brexit vote *was* a big financial event - just look at the collapse in the pound - but action was taken by the BoE to stabilise things. Anyone expecting a banking crisis style situation just as a result of the vote was looking in the wrong place.0 -
The issue is that the biggest problems with "No Deal" are rather technical and obscure. The EU's rules prevent withholding taxes on payments between subsidiaries and parents where both entities are in the EU. If we leave without a deal, then we have 27 sets of negotiations with individual countries to persuade them to pass legislation categorising us as Not Belize. Doable? Of course. A complete pain the the arse for the next 24 months? Yes.Nemtynakht said:I voted remain on the assumption that the dire financial warnings were accurate. The more sophisticated lie from the remain side was in the assumptions made to come to a dire conclusion.
You still hear some of the nonsense - I had a conversation with someone recently with a remainer who thought that if we had no deal then there would be no trade at all with the EU! They looked at me incredulously when I pointed out WTO rules meant we could carry on trading, and we did this with a lot of the rest of the world. I’m pretty sure they didn’t believe me because it didn’t fit in with their own narrative.
Or the fact that the EU has nine agreements covering standards equivalence, dispute resolution and other matters with the US. Do these get us tariff free access to the US? No. Will they be replaced if we leave without a deal? Undoubtedly. Will it be on 1 April 2019? Errrr, probably not.
0 -
If there were a referendum tomorrow, would you vote Leave or Remain?rcs1000 said:
The issue is that the biggest problems with "No Deal" are rather technical and obscure. The EU's rules prevent withholding taxes on payments between subsidiaries and parents where both entities are in the EU. If we leave without a deal, then we have 27 sets of negotiations with individual countries to persuade them to pass legislation categorising us as Not Belize. Doable? Of course. A complete pain the the arse for the next 24 months? Yes.Nemtynakht said:I voted remain on the assumption that the dire financial warnings were accurate. The more sophisticated lie from the remain side was in the assumptions made to come to a dire conclusion.
You still hear some of the nonsense - I had a conversation with someone recently with a remainer who thought that if we had no deal then there would be no trade at all with the EU! They looked at me incredulously when I pointed out WTO rules meant we could carry on trading, and we did this with a lot of the rest of the world. I’m pretty sure they didn’t believe me because it didn’t fit in with their own narrative.
Or the fact that the EU has nine agreements covering standards equivalence, dispute resolution and other matters with the US. Do these get us tariff free access to the US? No. Will they be replaced if we leave without a deal? Undoubtedly. Will it be on 1 April 2019? Errrr, probably not.0 -
Like the Treasury?williamglenn said:
No doubt you also explained how the customs infrastructure would magically be able to cope with processing such an increased workload without major disruption and how business models that rely on frictionless trade would carry on regardless.Nemtynakht said:I voted remain on the assumption that the dire financial warnings were accurate. The more sophisticated lie from the remain side was in the assumptions made to come to a dire conclusion.
You still hear some of the nonsense - I had a conversation with someone recently with a remainer who thought that if we had no deal then there would be no trade at all with the EU! They looked at me incredulously when I pointed out WTO rules meant we could carry on trading, and we did this with a lot of the rest of the world. I’m pretty sure they didn’t believe me because it didn’t fit in with their own narrative.
The Brexit vote *was* a big financial event - just look at the collapse in the pound - but action was taken by the BoE to stabilise things. Anyone expecting a banking crisis style situation just as a result of the vote was looking in the wrong place.
The Treasury forecast an emergency budget and mass unemployment and an immediate recession from the vote. Not after Brexit but after the vote. Specifically in 2016 and 2017 which couldn't be after Brexit as the 2 years wouldn't have lapsed even if Cameron had triggered Article 50 on 24 June 2016.
Are you suggesting that the Treasury forecast forgot to include the Bank of England doing its job?0 -
(OT) For those who enjoy cricket, this is an excellent article:
http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/1154076/what-is-the-best-length-to-bowl-in-tests0 -
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?0 -
The Treasury forecast didn't take into account the action taken by the Bank of England.Philip_Thompson said:
Like the Treasury?williamglenn said:
No doubt you also explained how the customs infrastructure would magically be able to cope with processing such an increased workload without major disruption and how business models that rely on frictionless trade would carry on regardless.Nemtynakht said:I voted remain on the assumption that the dire financial warnings were accurate. The more sophisticated lie from the remain side was in the assumptions made to come to a dire conclusion.
You still hear some of the nonsense - I had a conversation with someone recently with a remainer who thought that if we had no deal then there would be no trade at all with the EU! They looked at me incredulously when I pointed out WTO rules meant we could carry on trading, and we did this with a lot of the rest of the world. I’m pretty sure they didn’t believe me because it didn’t fit in with their own narrative.
The Brexit vote *was* a big financial event - just look at the collapse in the pound - but action was taken by the BoE to stabilise things. Anyone expecting a banking crisis style situation just as a result of the vote was looking in the wrong place.
The Treasury forecast an emergency budget and mass unemployment and an immediate recession from the vote. Not after Brexit but after the vote. Specifically in 2016 and 2017 which couldn't be after Brexit as the 2 years wouldn't have lapsed even if Cameron had triggered Article 50 on 24 June 2016.
Are you suggesting that the Treasury forecast forgot to include the Bank of England doing its job?
Nevertheless, given that it was just an advisory vote, any immediate reaction from anyone would be driven by mass psychology rather than anything tangible. The (small) risk was that this effect could have caused a financial chain reaction.0 -
“Supposed”? When even Labour’s leader admits there is a problem?OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...0 -
Philip_Thompson said:
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?
Why not be honest and confirm that the antisemitism propaganda against Corbyn and the Labour Party is politically motivated by those who can see the popularity of the Labour Party might just be putting their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK at risk.
0 -
All the left have is "whataboutery". Sad.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
Labour is imploding slowly - the damage will take a decade to repair. It may not be visible in the polling yet - but gravity is on its way.0 -
Why not be honest and admit that hatred towards a group in society - a group who have already suffered the most unspeakable systematic atrocity in the history of our species - is a price worth paying to reach your socialist utopia?OchEye said:Philip_Thompson said:
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?
Why not be honest and confirm that the antisemitism propaganda against Corbyn and the Labour Party is politically motivated by those who can see the popularity of the Labour Party might just be putting their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK at risk.0 -
In Scotland the SNP seem to have got the Islamic vote onside and delivering votes by the street and the kg without resorting to the vile antisemitism of Corbyn - why can't Jezza take a leaf out of Nicla's book ?0
-
There is now much that is "ewwwwwwww" about the idea of voting Labour if you are centrist liberal soft left. Labour = Anti-semitism - and Brexit too.TGOHF said:
All the left have is "whataboutery". Sad.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
Labour is imploding slowly - the damage will take a decade to repair. It may not be visible in the polling yet - but gravity is on its way.
As I have said, I expect it to start showing in Labour's certaint to vote numbers. 8-9 will go to 5-6.0 -
0
-
What propaganda?OchEye said:Philip_Thompson said:
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?
Why not be honest and confirm that the antisemitism propaganda against Corbyn and the Labour Party is politically motivated by those who can see the popularity of the Labour Party might just be putting their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK at risk.
I've seen a great many highly embarrassing revelations that confirm there are some nasty racists in Labour some of whom are very close to the dear Leader. But that's a long way from being 'propaganda.'
Indeed, arguably there has been considerably more propaganda in the less than convincing response.0 -
That was quite enjoyable thank you.Nigelb said:(OT) For those who enjoy cricket, this is an excellent article:
http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/1154076/what-is-the-best-length-to-bowl-in-tests
0 -
Except, one has got the moral right on its side.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
Labour is going through a period that will be viewed - eventually - with great discomfort. There are going to be some who will be deeply ashamed at how they have got swept along with protecting the Dear Leader. And yes, we can see them on here. People you would never previously have expected to be giving anti-semtisim a free pass.
Those who won't feel embarrassed are, frankly, shits. The Labour Party deserves to perish if they think it represents a modern day vision for life in this - or any - country.0 -
I initially read that as 'A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Trump is Putting On His Shoes', presumably immediately after putting down his mobile phone.MarqueeMark said:
"A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes" it seems was not Mark Twain. More on the origins of this quote than you could ever want, here:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/07/13/truth/0 -
Because its not propaganda. It is vile racism.OchEye said:Philip_Thompson said:
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?
Why not be honest and confirm that the antisemitism propaganda against Corbyn and the Labour Party is politically motivated by those who can see the popularity of the Labour Party might just be putting their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK at risk.
All Labour has to do is simple: zero tolerance of antisemitism.
Antisemite A says something vile, Labour suspend him then after a fair investigation he gets expelled from the party. Job done. Would be a non issue in no time flat.0 -
Mr. Borough, in the first series of House, a billionaire pumps so much money into the hospital that he wants control, and the ability to fire House. When a board member dissents and vetoes the motion, he proposes the removal of that board member.0
-
@TheJezziah made a good point on the previous thread: that Corbyn has the ability to inspire people to vote for him. This is true, in a way that isn’t true, say, for May or some of Corbyn’s leadership rivals.
But being inspirational does not necessarily mean that you are a good man and believe good things. A lot of Corbynites do believe that which is why they react so furiously when anyone suggests that Corbyn is less than perfect. But there are a lot of examples in recent history - indeed in current politics - of inspirational leaders being very bad people, who do bad things and believe bad things. Some of the Corbynites’ fury, I suspect, is because they fear (or deep down know) that Corbyn’s behaviour on the anti-semitism issue show him to be rather more like these leaders than the pure hero they would like to believe him to be. It is very hard to admit that your hero is not perfect. The answer of course is to stop lashing out at those who point this out, stop indulging in hero worship like some child and accept that people, even those you admire, are flawed human beings and try and address those flaws. But that would involve a degree of maturity and reflection and self-reflection in the object of worship which seem to be absent.
One of the problems in the City in recent years was the cult of the star trader or star banker. Dangerous for lots of reasons; and those institutions which believed it most fervently ended up in trouble (RBS, UBS).
The cult of the “star” politician who can do no wrong and who cannot be challenged is equally dangerous and will drag down the party which falls prey to it. Labour is facing this issue now. The Tories will end up in the same place if they think Johnson is a “star” come to save them.0 -
Love this comment:MarqueeMark said:
There is now much that is "ewwwwwwww" about the idea of voting Labour if you are centrist liberal soft left. Labour = Anti-semitism - and Brexit too.TGOHF said:
All the left have is "whataboutery". Sad.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
Labour is imploding slowly - the damage will take a decade to repair. It may not be visible in the polling yet - but gravity is on its way.
As I have said, I expect it to start showing in Labour's certaint to vote numbers. 8-9 will go to 5-6.
https://twitter.com/LanceForman/status/10263995919635374090 -
I think this guy has cornered the Scotch antisemitism market.TGOHF said:In Scotland the SNP seem to have got the Islamic vote onside and delivering votes by the street and the kg without resorting to the vile antisemitism of Corbyn - why can't Jezza take a leaf out of Nicla's book ?
https://twitter.com/MammothWhale/status/10261225230193008690 -
Lots of 'Civic Nationalism' on this thread:
https://twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/10253798916284006400 -
He'd have to get rid of Milne, and potentially himself.Philip_Thompson said:
Because its not propaganda. It is vile racism.OchEye said:Philip_Thompson said:
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?
Why not be honest and confirm that the antisemitism propaganda against Corbyn and the Labour Party is politically motivated by those who can see the popularity of the Labour Party might just be putting their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK at risk.
All Labour has to do is simple: zero tolerance of antisemitism.
Antisemite A says something vile, Labour suspend him then after a fair investigation he gets expelled from the party. Job done. Would be a non issue in no time flat.0 -
So those Jews complaining about anti-semitism in Labour are doing so because they’re worried about losing “their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK”.OchEye said:Philip_Thompson said:
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?
Why not be honest and confirm that the antisemitism propaganda against Corbyn and the Labour Party is politically motivated by those who can see the popularity of the Labour Party might just be putting their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK at risk.
It takes a special sort of talent to spread an anti-semitic trope in the very sentence in which you claim that complaints against anti-semtism are mere self-interested propaganda.0 -
Not no time flat. Time travel is the problem. If Labour accepts that (say) wearing purple ties is antisemitic, Guido, CCHQ and half of Fleet Street would start combing the archives to see what colour tie Jezza wore in the last forty years.Philip_Thompson said:
Because its not propaganda. It is vile racism.OchEye said:Philip_Thompson said:
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?
Why not be honest and confirm that the antisemitism propaganda against Corbyn and the Labour Party is politically motivated by those who can see the popularity of the Labour Party might just be putting their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK at risk.
All Labour has to do is simple: zero tolerance of antisemitism.
Antisemite A says something vile, Labour suspend him then after a fair investigation he gets expelled from the party. Job done. Would be a non issue in no time flat.
And it is not purple ties but the comparison with Nazism that is the problem. In the past, this was not seen as antisemitic and went on quite a lot. That's the trouble. In Britain, Nazi comparisons were not seen as particularly offensive. Now the zeitgeist has changed and they are. So if Labour accepts the 2016 IHRA definition, then once more, Guido, CCHQ and the rest will be trawling the archives.0 -
Oh Dear, same old, same old! Please think up a new tune to sing. The Right do not have any moral right on their side, in fact they have mostly been condemned by their own actions and voices so often that they have been completely ignored as becoming situation normal.MarqueeMark said:
Except, one has got the moral right on its side.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
Labour is going through a period that will be viewed - eventually - with great discomfort. There are going to be some who will be deeply ashamed at how they have got swept along with protecting the Dear Leader. And yes, we can see them on here. People you would never previously have expected to be giving anti-semtisim a free pass.
Those who won't feel embarrassed are, frankly, shits. The Labour Party deserves to perish if they think it represents a modern day vision for life in this - or any - country.
Yet in all the kerfuffle about antisemitism in the labour party, the publicity and news on the most racist and corrupt government in the "West" is ignored. Which in itself is rather worrying, considering it is Israel.
May I suggest that you start reading Haaretz,Com, the Times of Israel and the Jerusalem Times, all on line, to find out about the One Nation law and how it affects the Israeli minority communities like the Druze. Oh and the ongoing investigations into Israel's Dear Leader Netanyahu's methods of obtaining "gifts" from wealthy supporters, or even the criminal case against Sara Netanyahu for corruption regarding frozen and chilled meals.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/netanyahu-s-spin-backfired-fueling-druze-nation-state-protest-rally-1.6341860
Of course, the supposed antisemitism of Corbyn is more important.0 -
This. Any criticism at all is PROOF of a PLOT to have another COUP. By BLAIRITES.rottenborough said:
The Labour Party must rid itself of this despicable behaviour that causes so much offence. No, not anti-Semitism. Anti-Corbynism.0 -
When did Corbyn stop thinking that accusations of antisemitism in his party were just "utterly disgusting subliminal nastiness"?0
-
To the British electorate, of course it is.OchEye said:
Oh Dear, same old, same old! Please think up a new tune to sing. The Right do not have any moral right on their side, in fact they have mostly been condemned by their own actions and voices so often that they have been completely ignored as becoming situation normal.MarqueeMark said:
Except, one has got the moral right on its side.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
Labour is going through a period that will be viewed - eventually - with great discomfort. There are going to be some who will be deeply ashamed at how they have got swept along with protecting the Dear Leader. And yes, we can see them on here. People you would never previously have expected to be giving anti-semtisim a free pass.
Those who won't feel embarrassed are, frankly, shits. The Labour Party deserves to perish if they think it represents a modern day vision for life in this - or any - country.
Yet in all the kerfuffle about antisemitism in the labour party, the publicity and news on the most racist and corrupt government in the "West" is ignored. Which in itself is rather worrying, considering it is Israel.
May I suggest that you start reading Haaretz,Com, the Times of Israel and the Jerusalem Times, all on line, to find out about the One Nation law and how it affects the Israeli minority communities like the Druze. Oh and the ongoing investigations into Israel's Dear Leader Netanyahu's methods of obtaining "gifts" from wealthy supporters, or even the criminal case against Sara Netanyahu for corruption regarding frozen and chilled meals.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/netanyahu-s-spin-backfired-fueling-druze-nation-state-protest-rally-1.6341860
Of course, the supposed antisemitism of Corbyn is more important.
I would not seek to defend Netenyahu in any manner - quite the contrary - but the prospect of his being prime minister of the UK is, of course, nil.0 -
This row comes from within Labour. Of course the Tories take advantage of it. Any rival party would do.OchEye said:
Oh Dear, same old, same old! Please think up a new tune to sing. The Right do not have any moral right on their side, in fact they have mostly been condemned by their own actions and voices so often that they have been completely ignored as becoming situation normal.MarqueeMark said:
Except, one has got the moral right on its side.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
Labour is going through a period that will be viewed - eventually - with great discomfort. There are going to be some who will be deeply ashamed at how they have got swept along with protecting the Dear Leader. And yes, we can see them on here. People you would never previously have expected to be giving anti-semtisim a free pass.
Those who won't feel embarrassed are, frankly, shits. The Labour Party deserves to perish if they think it represents a modern day vision for life in this - or any - country.
Yet in all the kerfuffle about antisemitism in the labour party, the publicity and news on the most racist and corrupt government in the "West" is ignored. Which in itself is rather worrying, considering it is Israel.
May I suggest that you start reading Haaretz,Com, the Times of Israel and the Jerusalem Times, all on line, to find out about the One Nation law and how it affects the Israeli minority communities like the Druze. Oh and the ongoing investigations into Israel's Dear Leader Netanyahu's methods of obtaining "gifts" from wealthy supporters, or even the criminal case against Sara Netanyahu for corruption regarding frozen and chilled meals.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/netanyahu-s-spin-backfired-fueling-druze-nation-state-protest-rally-1.6341860
Of course, the supposed antisemitism of Corbyn is more important.0 -
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
0 -
They are half right.RochdalePioneers said:
This. Any criticism at all is PROOF of a PLOT to have another COUP. By BLAIRITES.rottenborough said:
The Labour Party must rid itself of this despicable behaviour that causes so much offence. No, not anti-Semitism. Anti-Corbynism.
Antisemitism is evil. Antisemitism is also being used to attack Labour and Corbyn. That's what political opponents do.0 -
The long methods of attacking Corbyn in the media are systematic, obtained by a mostly compliant media from a limited number of sources. Over the past couple of years, he has been roundly denounced as antisemitic, a East German Stasi spy, a Soviet agent, a spy for the Czech StD, PIRA supporter and again as antisemitic. As the joke now goes, apart rom being an MP and now leader of the LP and Leader of Her Majesties Opposition, it is amazing that he has even managed to find time to grow courgettes on his allotment.ydoethur said:
What propaganda?OchEye said:Philip_Thompson said:
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?
Why not be honest and confirm that the antisemitism propaganda against Corbyn and the Labour Party is politically motivated by those who can see the popularity of the Labour Party might just be putting their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK at risk.
I've seen a great many highly embarrassing revelations that confirm there are some nasty racists in Labour some of whom are very close to the dear Leader. But that's a long way from being 'propaganda.'
Indeed, arguably there has been considerably more propaganda in the less than convincing response.
If that is not attempted propaganda against Corbyn, then please explain.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/08/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-plotted-against-mps-set-up-political-groups-labour0 -
What the fuck makes you think I give the state of Israel any sort of pass? I can think its action heinous - but without crossing a line that makes Jews here fearful for their welfare. That's my difference to the positon of the Corbynite left. Their position is utterly lacking in any moral validity.OchEye said:
Oh Dear, same old, same old! Please think up a new tune to sing. The Right do not have any moral right on their side, in fact they have mostly been condemned by their own actions and voices so often that they have been completely ignored as becoming situation normal.MarqueeMark said:
Except, one has got the moral right on its side.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
Labour is going through a period that will be viewed - eventually - with great discomfort. There are going to be some who will be deeply ashamed at how they have got swept along with protecting the Dear Leader. And yes, we can see them on here. People you would never previously have expected to be giving anti-semtisim a free pass.
Those who won't feel embarrassed are, frankly, shits. The Labour Party deserves to perish if they think it represents a modern day vision for life in this - or any - country.
Yet in all the kerfuffle about antisemitism in the labour party, the publicity and news on the most racist and corrupt government in the "West" is ignored. Which in itself is rather worrying, considering it is Israel.
May I suggest that you start reading Haaretz,Com, the Times of Israel and the Jerusalem Times, all on line, to find out about the One Nation law and how it affects the Israeli minority communities like the Druze. Oh and the ongoing investigations into Israel's Dear Leader Netanyahu's methods of obtaining "gifts" from wealthy supporters, or even the criminal case against Sara Netanyahu for corruption regarding frozen and chilled meals.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/netanyahu-s-spin-backfired-fueling-druze-nation-state-protest-rally-1.6341860
Of course, the supposed antisemitism of Corbyn is more important.
And there you go again - "the supposed antisemitism". It gives the appearence to those who are affected of being a very real antisemitism. Address that.0 -
I've thought for ages that a realignment in the political parties was inevitable. Most parties are coalitions, and we're already seeing the cracks become irreversible:
LibDems - The Orange Book faction took control, spent 5 years voting more loyally for Tory policies than Tory MPs, and was thus smashed at the ballot box. That the current leader is involved in discussions to create a successor party to the twitching remains of this one isn't a surprise.
UKIP - self-evidently a Farage cult, it crashed from its winning the Euro elections height to almost oblivion in just a few years, unable to find any member capable of leading ot who isn't Farage. That He is supposedly on his way back if (when) Brexit is branded a betrayal is sad rather than interesting
Tories - terminally riven by Yerp, agreement that a wet like May can't continue to lead them, but argument about which Euro-loon should lead them ignores the electoral E.L.E. facing them over Fuxit
Labour - terminally riven by Blair, a minority faction insists things once again can only get better, another minority faction insists things were always shit and only a return to Red Robbo as Secretary of State of Industry can fix things, whilst the majority of members scratch their heads asking "WTF"
Its only a binary choice of a Labour government or a Conservative government because those two coalitions have just about stayed intact. All it takes is one of them fracturing significantly to tip the other one into doing the same. The divisions inside both parties are now too deep and bitter to mean that concerns about electability matter any more. All that matters is defeating the internal enemy, as Nick Clegg (who?) so successfully did.0 -
It's the modern way, with very many for all political shades. Can't win a game of chess against your opponent, remove the board sending the pieces flying and claim you're right...Sean_F said:
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
0 -
Perhaps we could organise a poll for the most boring meme of the Summer.
Brexit apocalypse probably still holds first place but Labour and anti-Semitism is coming up on the rails pretty fast. Could be a photo finish!0 -
We need another discussion about Scottish sub-samples.DavidL said:Perhaps we could organise a poll for the most boring meme of the Summer.
Brexit apocalypse probably still holds first place but Labour and anti-Semitism is coming up on the rails pretty fast. Could be a photo finish!0 -
Here’s an example of a Remainer twitter thread that should be read by anyone hoping to understand where we are.Sean_F said:
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
https://twitter.com/georgeperetzqc/status/1025645484092870656?s=210 -
Opponents like John McDonnell. Owen Jones. Billy Bragg. Tom Watson...DecrepitJohnL said:
They are half right.RochdalePioneers said:
This. Any criticism at all is PROOF of a PLOT to have another COUP. By BLAIRITES.rottenborough said:
The Labour Party must rid itself of this despicable behaviour that causes so much offence. No, not anti-Semitism. Anti-Corbynism.
Antisemitism is evil. Antisemitism is also being used to attack Labour and Corbyn. That's what political opponents do.
The problem that Kali Ma worshippers have is that their "any criticism is the start of another Blairite coup" narrative looks increasingly hysterical as non-Blairites point to the thing they don't want discussing.
I think that Jame O'Brien had it right in his analysis. Corbyn's team insist we can't accept the IHRA definition of anti-semitism because under it Corbyn is an anti-semite. Hence the desperate desire to insist that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-semitic" in the IHRA code actually means "we won't be able to criticise Israel".
Corbyn and the other Israel haters think Israel is a racist endeavour. That it should not exist and should have not been created. Denial of self-determination uniquely to Jews is blatant anti-semitism. Hence the desperate desire for a definition that doesn't include this.0 -
williamglenn said:
Here’s an example of a Remainer twitter thread that should be read by anyone hoping to understand where we are.Sean_F said:
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
https://twitter.com/georgeperetzqc/status/1025645484092870656?s=21
"the Remain campaign did not want to make the “entanglement” point precisely because it showed the extent to which the EU affected daily life."
Hmm - but what this chap fails to address is that the voters weren't ever consulted on the entanglement by stealth and frog boiling. Which was a key reason that leave won. Expecting voters to accept "more being ignored" is where the Remainer argument dies.
Staying in the EU has been revealed to be even worse than we thought - not surprising there is a majority who shrug and want to roll the dice.
If rejoin/remain wants to succeed it needs an answer to how to make staying in / rejoining better.
0 -
Ahhh, a good old conspiracy theory. Clearly none of those are because of Corbyn's own duff choices and the ummm, interesting people he chooses to hang out with. It must all be the media.OchEye said:
The long methods of attacking Corbyn in the media are systematic, obtained by a mostly compliant media from a limited number of sources. Over the past couple of years, he has been roundly denounced as antisemitic, a East German Stasi spy, a Soviet agent, a spy for the Czech StD, PIRA supporter and again as antisemitic. As the joke now goes, apart rom being an MP and now leader of the LP and Leader of Her Majesties Opposition, it is amazing that he has even managed to find time to grow courgettes on his allotment.ydoethur said:
What propaganda?OchEye said:Philip_Thompson said:
Until you drop the word supposed you can't be taken seriously. There is clear and actual antisemitism there is nothing supposed about it.OchEye said:
While in the mainly right wing media, who have been erupting from the sewers to up play up the supposed antisemitism in the Labour Party.JosiasJessop said:Sad to see so many left-wing posters descending into the gutter by downplaying Labour's massive issues with anti-Semitism.
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
I guess in their eyes the ends justify the means ...
There is racism on the right I don't deny it. I condemn it and want to make it clear that it is Not In My Name. Why can't so many on the left do the same?
Why not be honest and confirm that the antisemitism propaganda against Corbyn and the Labour Party is politically motivated by those who can see the popularity of the Labour Party might just be putting their nice comfy lifestyles and control of the political system in the UK at risk.
I've seen a great many highly embarrassing revelations that confirm there are some nasty racists in Labour some of whom are very close to the dear Leader. But that's a long way from being 'propaganda.'
Indeed, arguably there has been considerably more propaganda in the less than convincing response.
If that is not attempted propaganda against Corbyn, then please explain.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/08/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-plotted-against-mps-set-up-political-groups-labour
At least we don't need to feel we're missing Rod Crosby with Ocheye, Wisemann and daodao around.0 -
There is a simple solution to that too. A blanket apology for past hurt and an agreement not to tolerate it going forwards. It's not trawling thorough archives that is the issue it is people saying it still today. I'm not a speech writer but polish the following and it would be over quick:DecrepitJohnL said:
Not no time flat. Time travel is the problem. If Labour accepts that (say) wearing purple ties is antisemitic, Guido, CCHQ and half of Fleet Street would start combing the archives to see what colour tie Jezza wore in the last forty years.Philip_Thompson said:Because its not propaganda. It is vile racism.
All Labour has to do is simple: zero tolerance of antisemitism.
Antisemite A says something vile, Labour suspend him then after a fair investigation he gets expelled from the party. Job done. Would be a non issue in no time flat.
And it is not purple ties but the comparison with Nazism that is the problem. In the past, this was not seen as antisemitic and went on quite a lot. That's the trouble. In Britain, Nazi comparisons were not seen as particularly offensive. Now the zeitgeist has changed and they are. So if Labour accepts the 2016 IHRA definition, then once more, Guido, CCHQ and the rest will be trawling the archives.
"We are sorry for the hurt caused by past remarks. I want to make it clear that I abhor all racism which includes antisemitism. Therefore we resolve to adopt the IHRA definition and examples of antisemitism in full from today onwards. While emotions run high and passions are strong on issues such as the Middle East I want to make it clear that I will not tolerate racism if any kind. From today onwards we will not tolerate comparisons with the Nazis. We would now wish to move forwards together to tackle all racism going forwards. We have no room for racism and need to kick it out."
This would draw a line in the sand and if Ken Livingstone makes a fresh Nazi remark it can be dealt with but past ones have been apologised for. If Guido et al start trawling archives then simply respond that it was made before the IHRA definition was adopted and would not be tolerated now.0 -
Personally I miss Mr Dancer and Mr Eagles slugging it off about Hannibal.Sean_F said:
We need another discussion about Scottish sub-samples.DavidL said:Perhaps we could organise a poll for the most boring meme of the Summer.
Brexit apocalypse probably still holds first place but Labour and anti-Semitism is coming up on the rails pretty fast. Could be a photo finish!0 -
I thought he'd left Labour?Philip_Thompson said:
This would draw a line in the sand and if Ken Livingstone makes a fresh Nazi remark it can be dealt with but past ones have been apologised for. If Guido et al start trawling archives then simply respond that it was made before the IHRA definition was adopted and would not be tolerated now.0 -
He misses the entire point of Goodwin's article - Remain lost before the campaign started - despite greatly outspending their opponents and having much of the establishment, both domestic and foreign on their side. Indeed, had Remain explained our degree of entanglement with the EU they might well have gone down to a greater defeat - but funnily enough, they don't get criticised for that.....williamglenn said:
Here’s an example of a Remainer twitter thread that should be read by anyone hoping to understand where we are.Sean_F said:
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
https://twitter.com/georgeperetzqc/status/1025645484092870656?s=210 -
Perhaps. Was an example but the point stands.ydoethur said:
I thought he'd left Labour?Philip_Thompson said:
This would draw a line in the sand and if Ken Livingstone makes a fresh Nazi remark it can be dealt with but past ones have been apologised for. If Guido et al start trawling archives then simply respond that it was made before the IHRA definition was adopted and would not be tolerated now.0 -
In other news Stokes is apparently in the dock, the jury are being empanelled and none of them admit to being big England cricket fans: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/live-england-cricketer-ben-stokes-1865220
Looks like its running today.0 -
Can anyone tell me what ‘a supposed anti-semitism problem’ is? I thought Labour had a problem, They have had expulsions, disciplineries, investigations, changes in policy to address the issue - if its only a ‘supposed anti-semitism problem’ then they have done a great deal to address something that doesn’t exist.RochdalePioneers said:
This. Any criticism at all is PROOF of a PLOT to have another COUP. By BLAIRITES.rottenborough said:
The Labour Party must rid itself of this despicable behaviour that causes so much offence. No, not anti-Semitism. Anti-Corbynism.
Having lived in Bradford for a while and having heard the kind of anti-Semitic things being said openly in workplaces etc Labour has a fundamental issue. They are the de facto (85%) party of Muslims in the U.K. which is a group both more populous than The Jewish community, and is a group in growth. To address this issue risks pushing that minority vote into a religious party such as in NI.
http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/religious-affiliation-and-party-choice-at-the-2017-general-election/
0 -
Mr. Doethur, https://twitter.com/MykeCole/status/1026118763689795584
Hannibal was a master of preparation and foresight. He never would've made the blunders May has committed.
Or, for that matter, made such a failure of his campaign as Cameron did. With all against him, Hannibal went toe-to-toe with the known world's mightiest power for over a decade. With almost all for him, Cameron contrived to lose a referendum he himself had called.
Now I come to think of it, both were caught out by moves they themselves made. A far cry from Flaminius and Lake Trasimene.0 -
Poor old farmer Jones.
it's always him and he was only a figment of Orwell's imagination (or Nicholas II).0 -
Is there any record of Corbyn saying Israel should not exist?RochdalePioneers said:
Opponents like John McDonnell. Owen Jones. Billy Bragg. Tom Watson...DecrepitJohnL said:
They are half right.RochdalePioneers said:
This. Any criticism at all is PROOF of a PLOT to have another COUP. By BLAIRITES.rottenborough said:
The Labour Party must rid itself of this despicable behaviour that causes so much offence. No, not anti-Semitism. Anti-Corbynism.
Antisemitism is evil. Antisemitism is also being used to attack Labour and Corbyn. That's what political opponents do.
The problem that Kali Ma worshippers have is that their "any criticism is the start of another Blairite coup" narrative looks increasingly hysterical as non-Blairites point to the thing they don't want discussing.
I think that Jame O'Brien had it right in his analysis. Corbyn's team insist we can't accept the IHRA definition of anti-semitism because under it Corbyn is an anti-semite. Hence the desperate desire to insist that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-semitic" in the IHRA code actually means "we won't be able to criticise Israel".
Corbyn and the other Israel haters think Israel is a racist endeavour. That it should not exist and should have not been created. Denial of self-determination uniquely to Jews is blatant anti-semitism. Hence the desperate desire for a definition that doesn't include this.0 -
I wondered if there was a story of some general somewhere falling into their own ambush, but the google is uncharacteristically disappointingMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Doethur, https://twitter.com/MykeCole/status/1026118763689795584
Hannibal was a master of preparation and foresight. He never would've made the blunders May has committed.
Or, for that matter, made such a failure of his campaign as Cameron did. With all against him, Hannibal went toe-to-toe with the known world's mightiest power for over a decade. With almost all for him, Cameron contrived to lose a referendum he himself had called.
Now I come to think of it, both were caught out by moves they themselves made. A far cry from Flaminius and Lake Trasimene.0 -
Like Goodwin you make the mistake of clinging to the 2016 referendum as being the defining fact of British politics but the reasons why Leave won are almost entirely irrelevant to what is happening in 2018. You also ignore the fact that we've had a General Election in the meantime...CarlottaVance said:
He misses the entire point of Goodwin's article - Remain lost before the campaign started - despite greatly outspending their opponents and having much of the establishment, both domestic and foreign on their side. Indeed, had Remain explained our degree of entanglement with the EU they might well have gone down to a greater defeat - but funnily enough, they don't get criticised for that.....williamglenn said:
Here’s an example of a Remainer twitter thread that should be read by anyone hoping to understand where we are.Sean_F said:
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
https://twitter.com/georgeperetzqc/status/1025645484092870656?s=210 -
Cannae have a moment to grab some popcorn before Mr Eagles responds?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Doethur, https://twitter.com/MykeCole/status/1026118763689795584
Hannibal was a master of preparation and foresight. He never would've made the blunders May has committed.
Or, for that matter, made such a failure of his campaign as Cameron did. With all against him, Hannibal went toe-to-toe with the known world's mightiest power for over a decade. With almost all for him, Cameron contrived to lose a referendum he himself had called.
Now I come to think of it, both were caught out by moves they themselves made. A far cry from Flaminius and Lake Trasimene.0 -
This is what is so funny - the "supporters" of Corbyn continue to defend a "There. Is. No. Antisemitism." Peter Willsman line even after Jeremy himself sends all members a video message saying there is an anti-semitism problem. The rationale being that poor Jeremy has been forced into saying this by the evil Blairite plot.Nemtynakht said:Can anyone tell me what ‘a supposed anti-semitism problem’ is? I thought Labour had a problem, They have had expulsions, disciplineries, investigations, changes in policy to address the issue - if its only a ‘supposed anti-semitism problem’ then they have done a great deal to address something that doesn’t exist.
On the biggest Labour Facebook group this morning. A smear against Tom Watson claiming that donations made to him by a prominent Jew are part of the 'Israeli global interference in other countries' - they just don't know when to stop such is their hatred for Israel.
The current Israeli government is abhorrent, but they don't really care about Netanyahu or any small issue like that - their issue is that there is an Israeli PM not what the current incumbent does. When I point out that Labour policy IS support of the state of Israel via our two state solution policy, all I get is abuse for some reason...
0 -
If only you can explain to the little people in simple sentences where they went wrong by voting Brexit you will win next time..williamglenn said:
Like Goodwin you make the mistake of clinging to the 2016 referendum as being the defining fact of British politics but the reasons why Leave won are almost entirely irrelevant to what is happening in 2018. You also ignore the fact that we've had a General Election in the meantime...CarlottaVance said:
He misses the entire point of Goodwin's article - Remain lost before the campaign started - despite greatly outspending their opponents and having much of the establishment, both domestic and foreign on their side. Indeed, had Remain explained our degree of entanglement with the EU they might well have gone down to a greater defeat - but funnily enough, they don't get criticised for that.....williamglenn said:
Here’s an example of a Remainer twitter thread that should be read by anyone hoping to understand where we are.Sean_F said:
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
https://twitter.com/georgeperetzqc/status/1025645484092870656?s=21
You need to look beyond Trump, xenophobic lies and Russian bots as to why the country voted leave. Otherwise you will have "#FBPE" on your grave.
0 -
Try Burnside at the Battle of the Crater inedmundintokyo said:
I wondered if there was a story of some general somewhere falling into their own ambush, but the google is uncharacteristically disappointingMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Doethur, https://twitter.com/MykeCole/status/1026118763689795584
Hannibal was a master of preparation and foresight. He never would've made the blunders May has committed.
Or, for that matter, made such a failure of his campaign as Cameron did. With all against him, Hannibal went toe-to-toe with the known world's mightiest power for over a decade. With almost all for him, Cameron contrived to lose a referendum he himself had called.
Now I come to think of it, both were caught out by moves they themselves made. A far cry from Flaminius and Lake Trasimene.1865(edit - on checking I find it was) 1864.
Although it was his men rather than him who were ambushed.0 -
The first rule of being a big England cricket fan on the Stokes jury is...DavidL said:In other news Stokes is apparently in the dock, the jury are being empanelled and none of them admit to being big England cricket fans: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/live-england-cricketer-ben-stokes-1865220
Looks like its running today.0 -
Looks like the prosecution have won the toss and will bat first.Ishmael_Z said:
The first rule of being a big England cricket fan on the Stokes jury is...DavidL said:In other news Stokes is apparently in the dock, the jury are being empanelled and none of them admit to being big England cricket fans: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/live-england-cricketer-ben-stokes-1865220
Looks like its running today.
0 -
So you're suggesting that the Treasury forecast was based on modeling how private individuals, corporations etc would react to the vote but didn't take into account the actions of a government owned body that while independent answers to the Treasury Select Committee?williamglenn said:
The Treasury forecast didn't take into account the action taken by the Bank of England.Philip_Thompson said:
Like the Treasury?williamglenn said:
No doubt you also explained how the customs infrastructure would magically be able to cope with processing such an increased workload without major disruption and how business models that rely on frictionless trade would carry on regardless.Nemtynakht said:I voted remain on the assumption that the dire financial warnings were accurate. The more sophisticated lie from the remain side was in the assumptions made to come to a dire conclusion.
You still hear some of the nonsense - I had a conversation with someone recently with a remainer who thought that if we had no deal then there would be no trade at all with the EU! They looked at me incredulously when I pointed out WTO rules meant we could carry on trading, and we did this with a lot of the rest of the world. I’m pretty sure they didn’t believe me because it didn’t fit in with their own narrative.
The Brexit vote *was* a big financial event - just look at the collapse in the pound - but action was taken by the BoE to stabilise things. Anyone expecting a banking crisis style situation just as a result of the vote was looking in the wrong place.
The Treasury forecast an emergency budget and mass unemployment and an immediate recession from the vote. Not after Brexit but after the vote. Specifically in 2016 and 2017 which couldn't be after Brexit as the 2 years wouldn't have lapsed even if Cameron had triggered Article 50 on 24 June 2016.
Are you suggesting that the Treasury forecast forgot to include the Bank of England doing its job?
Nevertheless, given that it was just an advisory vote, any immediate reaction from anyone would be driven by mass psychology rather than anything tangible. The (small) risk was that this effect could have caused a financial chain reaction.
And we are supposed to take Treasury projections seriously? They can't even model how government owned bodies that answer to them will react but they're successfully modelling how everyone else does?0 -
Leave won because most voters don't like the EU, in summary.williamglenn said:
Like Goodwin you make the mistake of clinging to the 2016 referendum as being the defining fact of British politics but the reasons why Leave won are almost entirely irrelevant to what is happening in 2018. You also ignore the fact that we've had a General Election in the meantime...CarlottaVance said:
He misses the entire point of Goodwin's article - Remain lost before the campaign started - despite greatly outspending their opponents and having much of the establishment, both domestic and foreign on their side. Indeed, had Remain explained our degree of entanglement with the EU they might well have gone down to a greater defeat - but funnily enough, they don't get criticised for that.....williamglenn said:
Here’s an example of a Remainer twitter thread that should be read by anyone hoping to understand where we are.Sean_F said:
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
https://twitter.com/georgeperetzqc/status/1025645484092870656?s=210 -
The people got it absolutely right. Cameron's deal was an insult to their intelligence and the prospect of being half-in, half-out for the rest of time reeked of mediocrity and indecision. The people voted to blow up the status quo, and after having had the chance to assess our true options will rightly conclude that there is no alternative to closer integration.TGOHF said:
If only you can explain to the little people in simple sentences where they went wrong by voting Brexit you will win next time..williamglenn said:
Like Goodwin you make the mistake of clinging to the 2016 referendum as being the defining fact of British politics but the reasons why Leave won are almost entirely irrelevant to what is happening in 2018. You also ignore the fact that we've had a General Election in the meantime...CarlottaVance said:
He misses the entire point of Goodwin's article - Remain lost before the campaign started - despite greatly outspending their opponents and having much of the establishment, both domestic and foreign on their side. Indeed, had Remain explained our degree of entanglement with the EU they might well have gone down to a greater defeat - but funnily enough, they don't get criticised for that.....williamglenn said:
Here’s an example of a Remainer twitter thread that should be read by anyone hoping to understand where we are.Sean_F said:
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
https://twitter.com/georgeperetzqc/status/1025645484092870656?s=21
You need to look beyond Trump, xenophobic lies and Russian bots as to why the country voted leave. Otherwise you will have "#FBPE" on your grave.0 -
Mr. Tokyo, I believe Jugurtha lost most, maybe every, battle against the Romans, which probably includes at least one ambush.
However, if memory serves (it was a while ago I read of the Jugurthine War) he really did have terrible troops even though he seems to have been a clever chap. I do remember reading that halfway through a battle he was winning, his own soldiers got scared and ran away.
Edited extra bit: and the first time the Romans met the Cimbri tribe, the former attacked the latter without warning. It did not end well for the Romans.0 -
Let's have a referendum on whether people like Westminster, shall we?Sean_F said:
Leave won because most voters don't like the EU, in summary.williamglenn said:
Like Goodwin you make the mistake of clinging to the 2016 referendum as being the defining fact of British politics but the reasons why Leave won are almost entirely irrelevant to what is happening in 2018. You also ignore the fact that we've had a General Election in the meantime...CarlottaVance said:
He misses the entire point of Goodwin's article - Remain lost before the campaign started - despite greatly outspending their opponents and having much of the establishment, both domestic and foreign on their side. Indeed, had Remain explained our degree of entanglement with the EU they might well have gone down to a greater defeat - but funnily enough, they don't get criticised for that.....williamglenn said:
Here’s an example of a Remainer twitter thread that should be read by anyone hoping to understand where we are.Sean_F said:
I'm not so sure about that. You should look at the New European, or some of the Remain twitter threads.AlastairMeeks said:
Remainers have not so far hopped from hate figure to hate figure or sought to undermine every aspect of the civic infrastructure that they have come into contact with.CarlottaVance said:
Whilst Remainers are models of sober mature reflection......AlastairMeeks said:It’s an open question which is greater: the crazed hysteria of the Corbynites or the crazed hysteria of the Leavers.
https://twitter.com/georgeperetzqc/status/1025645484092870656?s=210
This discussion has been closed.