politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ultimately Corbyn’s got to compromise on antisemitism or else
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ultimately Corbyn’s got to compromise on antisemitism or else risk splitting the party
It is now more than four months since Labour’s anti-semitism row hit the headlines following publication of a 2012 tweet from Mr Corbyn in which he seemed to be referring approvingly to what was clearly an anti-semitic mural.
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First!0
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https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1022656876541108224
So that's a General Election and a referendum then....0 -
Third!
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Doubt Labour would split over this.-1
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No. That’s what JRM has said himself.Verulamius said:If I said that JRM takes his orders from the Pope as a good Catholic would that be a racist/anti-catholic statement?
Well that he takes him whip from Rome.0 -
Isn't her itinerary the plot to the Sound of Music?CarlottaVance said:https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1022656876541108224
So that's a General Election and a referendum then....0 -
I don't think he thinks he has to compromise. And for what it's worth, I don't think he has to compromise. The Labour left is so convinced of its rightness that it is willing to tell Jews what comprises anti-Semitism and how to express their dismay at Labour's stance. Quite where Labour thinks it gets the moral authority from to do this is unfathomable.
Ultimately, the Labour right will huff and puff but they won't actually do anything. They never do because they have no ideas.0 -
The councillor's age is not given here, perhaps the press might have a look at the electoral roll and that court record.
https://www.bognor.co.uk/news/politics/arun-must-start-listening-to-residents-says-double-bognor-by-election-victor-1-8393968
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A useful reminder for all the recent apologists for Communism:
https://twitter.com/J_Bloodworth/status/10228010819219496970 -
"@EuropeElects
44m44 minutes ago
UK, Ipsos MORI poll:
CON-ECR: 38% (-3)
LAB-S&D: 38%
LDEM-ALDE: 10% (+3)
UKIP-EFDD: 6% (+2)
Greens-G/EFA: 3% (-1)
Field work: 20/07/18-24/07/18
Sample size: N/A"0 -
Christine Baranski should sue....TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
If the Labour right didn't split the party over any of Corbyn's other assorted nonsense they are certainly not going to do it over his judoscepticism. I don't even think he'll go if he somehow manages to lose the next GE.0
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NPXMPX2 was telling us this morning that Jewish media concerns about anti-semitism was "unhelpfully OTT".AlastairMeeks said:Quite where Labour thinks it gets the moral authority from to do this is unfathomable.
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Interesting from earlier this morning. Is Sir Christopher an outrider for anyone in particular, or is this just his personal opinion?
https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/10227706395712184330 -
Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.0 -
Mrs Dura-Ace, who is supremely disinterested in politics, has just offered the following and unsolicited commentary: "Mrs May looks like she is about to drop dead."0
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Afternoon all
To change the mood somewhat, a more interesting area of discussion perhaps:
https://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2018/07/counties-call-fully-costed-social-care-cap?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term=
It will be interesting to see what the green paper on social care does say and where any supposed cap is pitched. The demands on the provision of social care are really hurting some southern shire authorities and the escalating demands with the continued growth in the elderly population through the 2020s and 2030s mean we need some radical thinking otherwise it will be huge tax increases for all.0 -
An injured Sagan in big trouble on the last mountain stage - likely to miss to the time cut...
https://twitter.com/cyclingbetting/status/10227987463111147520 -
Sir Christopher Meyer has been a consistent voice of reason for some time.Tissue_Price said:Interesting from earlier this morning. Is Sir Christopher an outrider for anyone in particular, or is this just his personal opinion?
https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/10227706395712184330 -
FPT.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
Israel is a right radical, nationalist state where the "staatsvolk" are treated more favourably than other citizens of the state. This policy was re-affirmed in a recent Knesset vote. Zionism has a lot in common with the nationalist philosophies of pre-war Eastern European states, particularly Poland, where Zionism has its roots. It should comes as no surprise that Israel is now particularly friendly with countries like Hungary, despite the antisemitic tendencies of right radical movements there dating back up to 100 years. Hungary's current leader, Victor Orban was given a very cordial welcome by Netanyahu when he visited Israel recently.
The ethos of the state of Israel, like that of current Hungary and Poland, is an anathema to those on the radical left of politics, hence Labour's wish to alter the examples used in the IHRA document.
Zionists do not want any of this to be pointed out, so have a vested interest in trying to blur the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, as the latter is considered unacceptable in a liberal Western democracy.
PS. Apologies to Barnesian for accidentally attributing my comment to him in the previous thread. If the previous "blockquote" is too long, part of it has to be deleted for the reply to be accepted and I made any error in doing this.0 -
Kristoff will almost certainly take Green if Sagan DNFs. Demare is in good form but 13 points behind,Tissue_Price said:An injured Sagan in big trouble on the last mountain stage - likely to miss to the time cut...
https://twitter.com/cyclingbetting/status/10227987463111147520 -
And you have Osbornites who insult both Leavers and countless numbers of Tory MPs are also traitors who deserve being thrown out the party and country.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.0 -
Sounds like the familiar 'Let's issue vaguely threatening noises and see if it achieves anything' approach.Tissue_Price said:Interesting from earlier this morning. Is Sir Christopher an outrider for anyone in particular, or is this just his personal opinion?
https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/10227706395712184330 -
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.0 -
Its a typical NPXMPX2 comment.. its sort of blaming Jews for the mess Labour is in. Its nonsense ./TOPPING said:
NPXMPX2 was telling us this morning that Jewish media concerns about anti-semitism was "unhelpfully OTT".AlastairMeeks said:Quite where Labour thinks it gets the moral authority from to do this is unfathomable.
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Maybe it’s just me but I really struggle to see Labour, a party that held together while fighting an illegal and immoral war on the basis of lies, breaking up on the back of something peripheral to most people’s experience. It’s hard to rule out anything in the madhouse that is British politics these days but this strikes me as more unlikely than most.
It’s really a straw/camel’s back argument. I don’t think we are there yet.0 -
P.S. A thread late but I've shared Foxy's journey on a further referendum. I've moved from "the people voted for it, I must be missing something given the numbers who voted to leave and all this brainpower must be able to find a way through." The first significant jar was "citizens of nowhere" "enemies of the people" didn't help and finally realising that there really was no plan and nothing - nothing - from the Leave campaign would be delivered.
If the deal can't command the support of a majority then it's unsustainable. And it can't sustain and it won't sustain, particularly given the uncompromising polling from younger generations. They simply won't stand for this nonsense, and if it's a truly lousy outcome, there will be a serious rejoin campaign in a matter of months.0 -
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
I expect that if Brexit turns out to be a clusterfuck we’ll return to sanity after another drubbing in 2027.
Plus I’m not French, I’m not going to surrender at the first opportunity.0 -
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0
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Should have stuck to astronomy.Dura_Ace said:
Kristoff will almost certainly take Green if Sagan DNFs. Demare is in good form but 13 points behind,Tissue_Price said:An injured Sagan in big trouble on the last mountain stage - likely to miss to the time cut...
https://twitter.com/cyclingbetting/status/10227987463111147520 -
The founders of Israel subscribed to the common European view at the time that every people deserved its own State. So, they took view that there should be a Jewish State, in the same way as a Polish State, a Hungarian State, a Romanian State or a Czech State. I don't think that was a radical right position at the time, if anything, a liberal position.daodao said:
FPT.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
Israel is a right radical, nationalist state where the "staatsvolk" are treated more favourably than other citizens of the state. This policy was re-affirmed in a recent Knesset vote. Zionism has a lot in common with the nationalist philosophies of pre-war Eastern European states, particularly Poland, where Zionism has its roots. It should comes as no surprise that Israel is now particularly friendly with countries like Hungary, despite the antisemitic tendencies of right radical movements there dating back up to 100 years. Hungary's current leader, Victor Orban was given a very cordial welcome by Netanyahu when he visited Israel recently.
The ethos of the state of Israel, like that of current Hungary and Poland, is an anathema to those on the radical left of politics, hence Labour's wish to alter the examples used in the IHRA document.
Zionists do not want any of this to be pointed out, so have a vested interest in trying to blur the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, as the latter is considered unacceptable in a liberal Western democracy.
PS. Apologies to Barnesian for accidentally attributing my comment to him in the previous thread. If the previous "blockquote" is too long, part of it has to be deleted for the reply to be accepted and I made any error in doing this.
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George never uses the word traitor. Misguided and unThatcherife are his adjectives of choice to describe the Leavers who espouse Fuck business and WTO is awesome theology.Casino_Royale said:
And you have Osbornites who insult both Leavers and countless numbers of Tory MPs are also traitors who deserve being thrown out the party and country.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
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Fair enough. Sounds very similar to the reasons JW Spa has rejoined Labour. I fear you have a long time on the fringes ahead though....I would love to be wrong.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
I expect that if Brexit turns out to be a clusterfuck we’ll return to sanity after another drubbing in 2027.
Plus I’m not French, I’m not going to surrender at the first opportunity.0 -
Where do sensible people go where they won't find themselves on the fringe?tpfkar said:
Fair enough. Sounds very similar to the reasons JW Spa has rejoined Labour. I fear you have a long time on the fringes ahead though....I would love to be wrong.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
I expect that if Brexit turns out to be a clusterfuck we’ll return to sanity after another drubbing in 2027.
Plus I’m not French, I’m not going to surrender at the first opportunity.0 -
It’s “pick a side”. I find myself picking a side with Trump despite him being actively against many of my core values of free trade, honesty and not being a total c*nt. yet I pick him because I look at the other side and I find them more repulsive. Same for Brexit. I would define myself as a reluctant leaver. Entirely comfortable with our retained membership of the single market, but then find myself along the “well go and f yourself and let’s leave without a deal” headbangers. Leaving in March without any kind of transition would be utter madness and apocalayptic in terms of chaos, at least for the short term.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
But I would rather pick that side then align myself with the hideous rantings of everything the Independent says on the matter or the deranged muttering of A C Grayling recorded actively pleading with the European Commission to give us a punishment beating to teach us a lesson.
Pick a side, the grays of a subtle position are becoming harder and harder to express.0 -
Sounds like I will be leaving Italy just in time.DecrepitJohnL said:
Isn't her itinerary the plot to the Sound of Music?CarlottaVance said:https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1022656876541108224
So that's a General Election and a referendum then....0 -
'Sanity'. Hmm. Good luck. I'll not be voting Tory again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
I expect that if Brexit turns out to be a clusterfuck we’ll return to sanity after another drubbing in 2027.
Plus I’m not French, I’m not going to surrender at the first opportunity.0 -
I know. I’m expecting the worst. When this govt finishes I’m expecting at least a decade out of power.tpfkar said:
Fair enough. Sounds very similar to the reasons JW Spa has rejoined Labour. I fear you have a long time on the fringes ahead though....I would love to be wrong.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
I expect that if Brexit turns out to be a clusterfuck we’ll return to sanity after another drubbing in 2027.
Plus I’m not French, I’m not going to surrender at the first opportunity.0 -
Any right wing Thatcherite Tory that shuns the Single Market needs to give themselves a shake...TheScreamingEagles said:
George never uses the word traitor. Misguided and unThatcherife are his adjectives of choice to describe the Leavers who espouse Fuck business and WTO is awesome theology.Casino_Royale said:
And you have Osbornites who insult both Leavers and countless numbers of Tory MPs are also traitors who deserve being thrown out the party and country.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
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Since in that scenario UK fisherman won't be able to sell half of their current catch to the EU, it looks like it's going to be a significant stock recovery in British waters.Tissue_Price said:Interesting from earlier this morning. Is Sir Christopher an outrider for anyone in particular, or is this just his personal opinion?
https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/1022770639571218433
Of course the fisher folk won't be happy (when are they ever?).0 -
You don't want to side with someone who you think wishes you ill, so instead you side those you admit will do you ill...notme said:Leaving in March without any kind of transition would be utter madness and apocalayptic in terms of chaos, at least for the short term.
But I would rather pick that side then align myself with the hideous rantings of everything the Independent says on the matter or the deranged muttering of A C Grayling recorded actively pleading with the European Commission to give us a punishment beating to teach us a lesson.
And you wonder why some people think Brexiteers are several tariffs short of an FTA...0 -
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1022830331941085189
Buyers of drugs getting off lightly according to London Mayor.0 -
Common EASTERN European view possibly, but it is not the ethos of multinational states such as the UK (now or then) or the former Hapsburg empire.Sean_F said:
The founders of Israel subscribed to the common European view at the time that every people deserved its own State. So, they took view that there should be a Jewish State, in the same way as a Polish State, a Hungarian State, a Romanian State or a Czech State. I don't think that was a radical right position at the time, if anything, a liberal position.daodao said:
FPT.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
Israel is a right radical, nationalist state where the "staatsvolk" are treated more favourably than other citizens of the state. This policy was re-affirmed in a recent Knesset vote. Zionism has a lot in common with the nationalist philosophies of pre-war Eastern European states, particularly Poland, where Zionism has its roots. It should comes as no surprise that Israel is now particularly friendly with countries like Hungary, despite the antisemitic tendencies of right radical movements there dating back up to 100 years. Hungary's current leader, Victor Orban was given a very cordial welcome by Netanyahu when he visited Israel recently.
The ethos of the state of Israel, like that of current Hungary and Poland, is an anathema to those on the radical left of politics, hence Labour's wish to alter the examples used in the IHRA document.
Zionists do not want any of this to be pointed out, so have a vested interest in trying to blur the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, as the latter is considered unacceptable in a liberal Western democracy.
PS. Apologies to Barnesian for accidentally attributing my comment to him in the previous thread. If the previous "blockquote" is too long, part of it has to be deleted for the reply to be accepted and I made any error in doing this.0 -
"No fishing in our waters without a licence" is a quint turn of phrase. As if he thinks the local bobby will come and nab any Spaniards casting their fishing rods.Theuniondivvie said:
Since in that scenario UK fisherman won't be able to sell half of their current catch to the EU, it looks like it's going to be a significant stock recovery in British waters.Tissue_Price said:Interesting from earlier this morning. Is Sir Christopher an outrider for anyone in particular, or is this just his personal opinion?
https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/1022770639571218433
Of course the fisher folk won't be happy (when are they ever?).0 -
But AC Grayling is nobody in the world of politics. His own family probably have to check on Wikipedia to remember who he is.notme said:
It’s “pick a side”. I find myself picking a side with Trump despite him being actively against many of my core values of free trade, honesty and not being a total c*nt. yet I pick him because I look at the other side and I find them more repulsive. Same for Brexit. I would define myself as a reluctant leaver. Entirely comfortable with our retained membership of the single market, but then find myself along the “well go and f yourself and let’s leave without a deal” headbangers. Leaving in March without any kind of transition would be utter madness and apocalayptic in terms of chaos, at least for the short term.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
But I would rather pick that side then align myself with the hideous rantings of everything the Independent says on the matter or the deranged muttering of A C Grayling recorded actively pleading with the European Commission to give us a punishment beating to teach us a lesson.
Pick a side, the grays of a subtle position are becoming harder and harder to express.
He’s not the only option available.0 -
But the question is why has the country become so intolerant of other peoples views positions?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.0 -
Wow, McLaren are such a disaster company. In the middle of negotiating James Key's gardening leave length (his contract would have him start in October of next year) they leaked that they had completed the deal to the BBC. Now it has left them completely exposed to blackmail from RBR who can name whatever cost for waiving a year of gardening leave as McLaren wanted. Completely stupid.0
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Who would be leading what kind of a Tory party for you to reconsider?John_M said:
'Sanity'. Hmm. Good luck. I'll not be voting Tory again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
I expect that if Brexit turns out to be a clusterfuck we’ll return to sanity after another drubbing in 2027.
Plus I’m not French, I’m not going to surrender at the first opportunity.0 -
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?0 -
Hmm. No. Siding with the people who through their actions might cause me ill, rather than those who wish ill to be done against me. It is a difference.Scott_P said:
You don't want to side with someone who you think wishes you ill, so instead you side those you admit will do you ill...notme said:Leaving in March without any kind of transition would be utter madness and apocalayptic in terms of chaos, at least for the short term.
But I would rather pick that side then align myself with the hideous rantings of everything the Independent says on the matter or the deranged muttering of A C Grayling recorded actively pleading with the European Commission to give us a punishment beating to teach us a lesson.
And you wonder why some people think Brexiteers are several tariffs short of an FTA...
I’m happy with neither. And I hope/assume/wish that any deal that happens involves a long enough transition.
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I very much agree with those who say the party won't split over this anti-semitism row. Instead, some more of the decent and sane Labour MPs and supporters will drift off, disillusioned, like those who have already gone.
In electoral terms, it won't in itself have much of an impact, but there is a curious aspect to it which deserves more attention. This is the question of why Corbyn and his cabal haven't just shut down the issue, but instead seem intent on inflaming it. I really don't understand this, but it indicates at the very least an insouciance about turning friends and supporters into enemies. And if they're happy to throw away Jewish support (as well as the support of decent folk generally) for no advantage, who else are they going to alienate gratuitously?0 -
Just look at the Vote Leave social media and you’ll get your answer.ralphmalph said:
But the question is why has the country become so intolerant of other peoples views positions?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.0 -
Good question. I'll ruminate on that for a while. Back in the day I'd have said I'm a Cameroon, but I'm not Europhile enough (due to lunacy) to fit well with that tranche of the party.TOPPING said:
Who would be leading what kind of a Tory party for you to reconsider?John_M said:
'Sanity'. Hmm. Good luck. I'll not be voting Tory again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
I expect that if Brexit turns out to be a clusterfuck we’ll return to sanity after another drubbing in 2027.
Plus I’m not French, I’m not going to surrender at the first opportunity.0 -
Maybe so and that is maybe why the UK abstained on the United Nations vote on the subject. But United Nations vote there was and so Resolution 181 passed and, if you acquaint yourself with its details, you will see that it was a plan for a partition of Palestine, thus giving the Jews and the Palestinians a state each. One party of which refused to accept it and the rest, as they say, is history.daodao said:
Common EASTERN European view possibly, but it is not the ethos of multinational states such as the UK (now or then) or the former Hapsburg empire.Sean_F said:
The founders of Israel subscribed to the common European view at the time that every people deserved its own State. So, they took view that there should be a Jewish State, in the same way as a Polish State, a Hungarian State, a Romanian State or a Czech State. I don't think that was a radical right position at the time, if anything, a liberal position.daodao said:
FPT.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
Israel is a right radical, nationalist state where the "staatsvolk" are treated more favourably than other citizens of the state. This policy was re-affirmed in a recent Knesset vote. Zionism has a lot in common with the nationalist philosophies of pre-war Eastern European states, particularly Poland, where Zionism has its roots. It should comes as no surprise that Israel is now particularly friendly with countries like Hungary, despite the antisemitic tendencies of right radical movements there dating back up to 100 years. Hungary's current leader, Victor Orban was given a very cordial welcome by Netanyahu when he visited Israel recently.
The ethos of the state of Israel, like that of current Hungary and Poland, is an anathema to those on the radical left of politics, hence Labour's wish to alter the examples used in the IHRA document.
Zionists do not want any of this to be pointed out, so have a vested interest in trying to blur the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, as the latter is considered unacceptable in a liberal Western democracy.
PS. Apologies to Barnesian for accidentally attributing my comment to him in the previous thread. If the previous "blockquote" is too long, part of it has to be deleted for the reply to be accepted and I made any error in doing this.0 -
But I look at the remainers defining the debate. Desperately angry, desperately wanting the whole thing to disappear. People like Clegg, Blair, Ken Clarke, they should be part of the negotiating team. They should be saying “we know how it works, we know which things will work, which won’t. We disagree with the decision, but it’s happening let’s get an agreement that allows both the eu and the uk to part peacefully, let’s find a way that the bulk of people who voted either way that could find acceptable”.TheScreamingEagles said:
But AC Grayling is nobody in the world of politics. His own family probably have to check on Wikipedia to remember who he is.notme said:
It’s “pick a side”. I find myself picking a side with Trump despite him being actively against many of my core values of free trade, honesty and not being a total c*nt. yet I pick him because I look at the other side and I find them more repulsive. Same for Brexit. I would define myself as a reluctant leaver. Entirely comfortable with our retained membership of the single market, but then find myself along the “well go and f yourself and let’s leave without a deal” headbangers. Leaving in March without any kind of transition would be utter madness and apocalayptic in terms of chaos, at least for the short term.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
But I would rather pick that side then align myself with the hideous rantings of everything the Independent says on the matter or the deranged muttering of A C Grayling recorded actively pleading with the European Commission to give us a punishment beating to teach us a lesson.
Pick a side, the grays of a subtle position are becoming harder and harder to express.
He’s not the only option available.
But no. The remainers are as bad as the Brexiteers. Back to ‘pick a side’. People trying to find a compromise like May are so utterly piss poor at it that both sides find little in it they can accept. A comprehensive failure of our political class.
0 -
https://twitter.com/GaryGibbonBlog/status/1022553160768880640TheScreamingEagles said:Just look at the Vote Leave social media and you’ll get your answer.
0 -
There is something seriously wrong with a political system that allows the likes of Grayling, Fox, the blessed mother and the idiot who screwed up NHS reform in the Coalition years to have long, well paid and apparently successful careers in politics. I could make the same point about the other parties, indeed the current Labour front bench is truly desperate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Maybe the French are on to something in that you normally have to run something smaller and less material before you get let loose on the national stage. The US used to do the same with State governors etc but are moving more to celebrity culture.
In normal times it maybe doesn’t matter too much but when the government is asked to do something a little more complicated, such as Brexit, the lack of talent becomes painfully apparent.0 -
Personally, I cannot get too excited over a dispute over the precise point that Anti-Zionism becomes Anti-Semitism. I quite like many aspects of Israel, and it is the only Middle Eastern country in which I could live safely as an observant Christian.daodao said:
The ethos of the state of Israel, like that of current Hungary and Poland, is an anathema to those on the radical left of politics, hence Labour's wish to alter the examples used in the IHRA document.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
Zionists do not want any of this to be pointed out, so have a vested interest in trying to blur the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, as the latter is considered unacceptable in a liberal Western democracy.
.
Labour anti-Semitism is a bit like the golliwog dispute, or about the occassional kipper who goes off the rails about Ting Tongs or Bongo Bongo land. Yes it is racist, and needs calling out, but it is hardly in the same league as The Nuremberg Laws, Ku Klux Klan lynchings or slave trade. While all predjudice or bigotry is deplorable, there are degrees of offensiveness. The row shows up the dark side of the hard Left (I suspect that many of the left wing anti-semites are not party members), but is not terminal.0 -
Mrs. May looks like she has droppped dead.Dura_Ace said:Mrs Dura-Ace, who is supremely disinterested in politics, has just offered the following and unsolicited commentary: "Mrs May looks like she is about to drop dead."
I can't think of anyone in public life who looks so ill. Even the Duke of Edinburgh looks in fine fettle in comparison.0 -
The answer is that this is a quite deliberate attempt to get the right of the party to drift off, disillusioned so that they can increase their control of the party.Richard_Nabavi said:I very much agree with those who say the party won't split over this anti-semitism row. Instead, some more of the decent and sane Labour MPs and supporters will drift off, disillusioned, like those who have already gone.
In electoral terms, it won't in itself have much of an impact, but there is a curious aspect to it which deserves more attention. This is the question of why Corbyn and his cabal haven't just shut down the issue, but instead seem intent on inflaming it. I really don't understand this, but it indicates at the very least an insouciance about turning friends and supporters into enemies. And if they're happy to throw away Jewish support (as well as the support of decent folk generally) for no advantage, who else are they going to alienate gratuitously?
For the same reason, the hard left are currently boasting about being Communists (when they aren't). They're goading the right to leave.0 -
The Roman Republic, at least in its pomp, had the cursus honorum, which has a certain appeal.DavidL said:
There is something seriously wrong with a political system that allows the likes of Grayling, Fox, the blessed mother and the idiot who screwed up NHS reform in the Coalition years to have long, well paid and apparently successful careers in politics. I could make the same point about the other parties, indeed the current Labour front bench is truly desperate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Maybe the French are on to something in that you normally have to run something smaller and less material before you get let loose on the national stage. The US used to do the same with State governors etc but are moving more to celebrity culture.
In normal times it maybe doesn’t matter too much but when the government is asked to do something a little more complicated, such as Brexit, the lack of talent becomes painfully apparent.0 -
Perhaps because those remainers would not be able to negotiate a deal that hardcore Brexiteers would like - and even if they did, the latter wouldn't trust them.notme said:
But I look at the remainers defining the debate. Desperately angry, desperately wanting the whole thing to disappear. People like Clegg, Blair, Ken Clarke, they should be part of the negotiating team. They should be saying “we know how it works, we know which things will work, which won’t. We disagree with the decision, but it’s happening let’s get an agreement that allows both the eu and the uk to part peacefully, let’s find a way that the bulk of people who voted either way that could find acceptable”.TheScreamingEagles said:
But AC Grayling is nobody in the world of politics. His own family probably have to check on Wikipedia to remember who he is.notme said:
It’s “pick a side”. I find myself picking a side with Trump despite him being actively against many of my core values of free trade, honesty and not being a total c*nt. yet I pick him because I look at the other side and I find them more repulsive. Same for Brexit. I would define myself as a reluctant leaver. Entirely comfortable with our retained membership of the single market, but then find myself along the “well go and f yourself and let’s leave without a deal” headbangers. Leaving in March without any kind of transition would be utter madness and apocalayptic in terms of chaos, at least for the short term.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
But I would rather pick that side then align myself with the hideous rantings of everything the Independent says on the matter or the deranged muttering of A C Grayling recorded actively pleading with the European Commission to give us a punishment beating to teach us a lesson.
Pick a side, the grays of a subtle position are becoming harder and harder to express.
He’s not the only option available.
But no. The remainers are as bad as the Brexiteers. Back to ‘pick a side’. People trying to find a compromise like May are so utterly piss poor at it that both sides find little in it they can accept. A comprehensive failure of our political class.
It'd be just another traitorous capitulation engineered by Quisling remainers who should be hung by their ... (cont. p.54)
Leave own this.0 -
You seem to have gone from picking sides to washing your hands of the whole thing.notme said:
But I look at the remainers defining the debate. Desperately angry, desperately wanting the whole thing to disappear. People like Clegg, Blair, Ken Clarke, they should be part of the negotiating team. They should be saying “we know how it works, we know which things will work, which won’t. We disagree with the decision, but it’s happening let’s get an agreement that allows both the eu and the uk to part peacefully, let’s find a way that the bulk of people who voted either way that could find acceptable”.TheScreamingEagles said:
But AC Grayling is nobody in the world of politics. His own family probably have to check on Wikipedia to remember who he is.notme said:
It’s “pick a side”. I find myself picking a side with Trump despite him being actively against many of my core values of free trade, honesty and not being a total c*nt. yet I pick him because I look at the other side and I find them more repulsive. Same for Brexit. I would define myself as a reluctant leaver. Entirely comfortable with our retained membership of the single market, but then find myself along the “well go and f yourself and let’s leave without a deal” headbangers. Leaving in March without any kind of transition would be utter madness and apocalayptic in terms of chaos, at least for the short term.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
But I would rather pick that side then align myself with the hideous rantings of everything the Independent says on the matter or the deranged muttering of A C Grayling recorded actively pleading with the European Commission to give us a punishment beating to teach us a lesson.
Pick a side, the grays of a subtle position are becoming harder and harder to express.
He’s not the only option available.
But no. The remainers are as bad as the Brexiteers. Back to ‘pick a side’. People trying to find a compromise like May are so utterly piss poor at it that both sides find little in it they can accept. A comprehensive failure of our political class.0 -
Japan and China will take it. Like they do so much of other seafood. Our fish has an extraordinarily high reputation there.Theuniondivvie said:
Since in that scenario UK fisherman won't be able to sell half of their current catch to the EU, it looks like it's going to be a significant stock recovery in British waters.Tissue_Price said:Interesting from earlier this morning. Is Sir Christopher an outrider for anyone in particular, or is this just his personal opinion?
https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/1022770639571218433
Of course the fisher folk won't be happy (when are they ever?).0 -
It's a very common Western European view. After all, the Norwegians, Icelanders, Finns, Irish, Italians, all took the view they were peoples entitled to a State of their own. Many Basques and Catalans believe the same.daodao said:
Common EASTERN European view possibly, but it is not the ethos of multinational states such as the UK (now or then) or the former Hapsburg empire.Sean_F said:
The founders of Israel subscribed to the common European view at the time that every people deserved its own State. So, they took view that there should be a Jewish State, in the same way as a Polish State, a Hungarian State, a Romanian State or a Czech State. I don't think that was a radical right position at the time, if anything, a liberal position.daodao said:
FPT.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
Israel is a right radical, nationalist state where the "staatsvolk" are treated more favourably than other citizens of the state. This policy was re-affirmed in a recent Knesset vote. Zionism has a lot in common with the nationalist philosophies of pre-war Eastern European states, particularly Poland, where Zionism has its roots. It should comes as no surprise that Israel is now particularly friendly with countries like Hungary, despite the antisemitic tendencies of right radical movements there dating back up to 100 years. Hungary's current leader, Victor Orban was given a very cordial welcome by Netanyahu when he visited Israel recently.
The ethos of the state of Israel, like that of current Hungary and Poland, is an anathema to those on the radical left of politics, hence Labour's wish to alter the examples used in the IHRA document.
Zionists do not want any of this to be pointed out, so have a vested interest in trying to blur the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, as the latter is considered unacceptable in a liberal Western democracy.
PS. Apologies to Barnesian for accidentally attributing my comment to him in the previous thread. If the previous "blockquote" is too long, part of it has to be deleted for the reply to be accepted and I made any error in doing this.0 -
As I recall the Spaniards purchased their licenses fair and legally off British fisherfolk.williamglenn said:
"No fishing in our waters without a licence" is a quint turn of phrase. As if he thinks the local bobby will come and nab any Spaniards casting their fishing rods.Theuniondivvie said:
Since in that scenario UK fisherman won't be able to sell half of their current catch to the EU, it looks like it's going to be a significant stock recovery in British waters.Tissue_Price said:Interesting from earlier this morning. Is Sir Christopher an outrider for anyone in particular, or is this just his personal opinion?
https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/1022770639571218433
Of course the fisher folk won't be happy (when are they ever?).0 -
It's looking like "no deal" more and more every day....Scott_P said:0 -
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their promises on a Lisbon treaty referendum.0 -
It does. Of course we don’t elect managers. The Civil Service bears a lot of responsibility for this never ending incompetence. Another great British institution which seems incapable of meeting modern requirements.John_M said:
The Roman Republic, at least in its pomp, had the cursus honorum, which has a certain appeal.DavidL said:
There is something seriously wrong with a political system that allows the likes of Grayling, Fox, the blessed mother and the idiot who screwed up NHS reform in the Coalition years to have long, well paid and apparently successful careers in politics. I could make the same point about the other parties, indeed the current Labour front bench is truly desperate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Maybe the French are on to something in that you normally have to run something smaller and less material before you get let loose on the national stage. The US used to do the same with State governors etc but are moving more to celebrity culture.
In normal times it maybe doesn’t matter too much but when the government is asked to do something a little more complicated, such as Brexit, the lack of talent becomes painfully apparent.0 -
Agreed.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their promises on a Lisbon treaty referendum.0 -
Two points. The people in the country wanted to talk about immigration for a long time, I do not believe they wanted to talk about immigration in a racist way. They were continually denied, told lies and insulted over it. Just basic intolerance. The Leave Campaign fed off this in as you say another intolerant way.TheScreamingEagles said:
Just look at the Vote Leave social media and you’ll get your answer.ralphmalph said:
But the question is why has the country become so intolerant of other peoples views positions?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
Then after the vote, the so called leaders of the country whether politicians, editors, University chiefs poured a whole load of shit over the leave voters heads, they were thick ignorant, racist, northerners who then every one of them went on a hate crimes spree. Just more intolerance all they did was vote.
Now we are on to anti-semitism and on it goes.
We are in a spiral of intolerance and two wrongs do not make a right.
How do we sort this mess out should be the burning question for all political parties at the moment.0 -
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?0 -
AlastairMeeks said:
I don't think he thinks he has to compromise. And for what it's worth, I don't think he has to compromise. The Labour left is so convinced of its rightness that it is willing to tell Jews what comprises anti-Semitism and how to express their dismay at Labour's stance. Quite where Labour thinks it gets the moral authority from to do this is unfathomable.
Ultimately, the Labour right will huff and puff but they won't actually do anything. They never do because they have no ideas.
Labour thinks it is right. It thinks it consists of good persons. It thinks it is anti-racist. Therefore because that is how it describes itself it therefore follows that everything it does is therefore good and anti-racist. That is where it claims to get its moral authority from.
Of course, all it shows in this narcissistic "I am good therefore everything I do is good" nonsense is that it has no understanding of what morality means. It is not what you say or how you describe yourself which is important. It is what you do which counts.
To the Labour left represented by Corbyn et al, principles are simply a way of describing how wonderful they are. They do not - and refuse to - understand that principles are a Kantian moral imperative which should determine how you act.
In their attitude to Jews (but not just them) Corbyn, his acolytes, his supporters and those who refuse to do anything about him despite their alleged queasiness are despicable, simply despicable. Their indulgence of anti-semitism, of Nazi language, of Holocaust denial, of an utter indifference to the concerns of a minority which has contributed so much to British life in the centuries it has been here and which has faced persecution and discrimination and unimaginable cruelty is a disgrace. Their actions have allowed vile racist material and thoughts and words and actions to become widespread and mainstream in a way which shames them and will shame the nation if Corbyn's Labour is ever elected into government.0 -
I noted this little story on the PM recently:MarqueeMark said:
Mrs. May looks like she has droppped dead.Dura_Ace said:Mrs Dura-Ace, who is supremely disinterested in politics, has just offered the following and unsolicited commentary: "Mrs May looks like she is about to drop dead."
I can't think of anyone in public life who looks so ill. Even the Duke of Edinburgh looks in fine fettle in comparison.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5248319/Theresa-Mays-diabetes-patch-not-available-patients.html
The PM leads a very difficult schedule, with irregular mealtimes and activity, so must find it difficult to keep good control. To me she sounds like an excellent candidate for this sort of ambient glucose monitoring, so have no issue with it.
It would suggest to me that she is as much a control freak about her health (a good thing) as in other parts of her life (not always such a good thing). I think that she is just tired and desperately needs a proper holiday.0 -
Since a large portion of the UK fishing quota is leased to EU boats, that'll all come to an end also. These fishing fatcats might have to get off their arses and do some fishing.williamglenn said:
"No fishing in our waters without a licence" is a quint turn of phrase. As if he thinks the local bobby will come and nab any Spaniards casting their fishing rods.Theuniondivvie said:
Since in that scenario UK fisherman won't be able to sell half of their current catch to the EU, it looks like it's going to be a significant stock recovery in British waters.Tissue_Price said:Interesting from earlier this morning. Is Sir Christopher an outrider for anyone in particular, or is this just his personal opinion?
https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/1022770639571218433
Of course the fisher folk won't be happy (when are they ever?).0 -
There will ultimately be a truth and Reconciliation process, but probably not before the riots...ralphmalph said:How do we sort this mess out should be the burning question for all political parties at the moment.
0 -
I think Dave will admit his biggest failing was not being prepared or adapt to Vote Leave running the campaign he’d expect from Farage.williamglenn said:
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
Simply he didn’t think Gove, Hannan et al would focus on immigration/dog whistle stuff on Turkey.0 -
She must be feeling a huge amount of stress right now. Can't blame her for wanting to take a break for a bit.Foxy said:
I noted this little story on the PM recently:MarqueeMark said:
Mrs. May looks like she has droppped dead.Dura_Ace said:Mrs Dura-Ace, who is supremely disinterested in politics, has just offered the following and unsolicited commentary: "Mrs May looks like she is about to drop dead."
I can't think of anyone in public life who looks so ill. Even the Duke of Edinburgh looks in fine fettle in comparison.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5248319/Theresa-Mays-diabetes-patch-not-available-patients.html
The PM leads a very difficult schedule, with irregular mealtimes and activity, so must find it difficult to keep good control. To me she sounds like an excellent candidate for this sort of ambient glucose monitoring, so have no issue with it.
It would suggest to me that she is as much a control freak about her health (a good thing) as in other parts of her life (not always such a good thing). I think that she is just tired and desperately needs a proper holiday.0 -
I hope she gets a decent rest. Maybe she now has the supreme serenity of someone who has done all they can with Brussels and knows that our departure from the EU will be untroubled by further discussions....Foxy said:
I noted this little story on the PM recently:MarqueeMark said:
Mrs. May looks like she has droppped dead.Dura_Ace said:Mrs Dura-Ace, who is supremely disinterested in politics, has just offered the following and unsolicited commentary: "Mrs May looks like she is about to drop dead."
I can't think of anyone in public life who looks so ill. Even the Duke of Edinburgh looks in fine fettle in comparison.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5248319/Theresa-Mays-diabetes-patch-not-available-patients.html
The PM leads a very difficult schedule, with irregular mealtimes and activity, so must find it difficult to keep good control. To me she sounds like an excellent candidate for this sort of ambient glucose monitoring, so have no issue with it.
It would suggest to me that she is as much a control freak about her health (a good thing) as in other parts of her life (not always such a good thing). I think that she is just tired and desperately needs a proper holiday.0 -
Second biggest failing, surely? His first was not giving JohnO an hereditary Dukedom.TheScreamingEagles said:
I think Dave will admit his biggest failing was not being prepared or adapt to Vote Leave running the campaign he’d expect from Farage.williamglenn said:
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
Simply he didn’t think Gove, Hannan et al would focus on immigration/dog whistle stuff on Turkey.
0 -
But you said that sort of campaign would not work!TheScreamingEagles said:
I think Dave will admit his biggest failing was not being prepared or adapt to Vote Leave running the campaign he’d expect from Farage.williamglenn said:
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
Simply he didn’t think Gove, Hannan et al would focus on immigration/dog whistle stuff on Turkey.0 -
Right now the usual meme from your fellow Leavers is that Brexit would be wonderful if only it hadn't been negotiated by Remain supporters like Theresa May.notme said:
But I look at the remainers defining the debate. Desperately angry, desperately wanting the whole thing to disappear. People like Clegg, Blair, Ken Clarke, they should be part of the negotiating team. They should be saying “we know how it works, we know which things will work, which won’t. We disagree with the decision, but it’s happening let’s get an agreement that allows both the eu and the uk to part peacefully, let’s find a way that the bulk of people who voted either way that could find acceptable”.TheScreamingEagles said:
But AC Grayling is nobody in the world of politics. His own family probably have to check on Wikipedia to remember who he is.notme said:
It’s “pick a side”. I find myself picking a side with Trump despite him being actively against many of my core values of free trade, honesty and not being a total c*nt. yet I pick him because I look at the other side and I find them more repulsive. Same for Brexit. I would define myself as a reluctant leaver. Entirely comfortable with our retained membership of the single market, but then find myself along the “well go and f yourself and let’s leave without a deal” headbangers. Leaving in March without any kind of transition would be utter madness and apocalayptic in terms of chaos, at least for the short term.TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
But I would rather pick that side then align myself with the hideous rantings of everything the Independent says on the matter or the deranged muttering of A C Grayling recorded actively pleading with the European Commission to give us a punishment beating to teach us a lesson.
Pick a side, the grays of a subtle position are becoming harder and harder to express.
He’s not the only option available.
But no. The remainers are as bad as the Brexiteers. Back to ‘pick a side’. People trying to find a compromise like May are so utterly piss poor at it that both sides find little in it they can accept. A comprehensive failure of our political class.0 -
It is completely legitimate to criticise Israel because it's current behaviour is indeed racist. Storm in a teacup designed to destabilise Corbyn.0
-
That's not how Shipman tells it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I think Dave will admit his biggest failing was not being prepared or adapt to Vote Leave running the campaign he’d expect from Farage.williamglenn said:
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
Simply he didn’t think Gove, Hannan et al would focus on immigration/dog whistle stuff on Turkey.0 -
I know.tlg86 said:
But you said that sort of campaign would not work!TheScreamingEagles said:
I think Dave will admit his biggest failing was not being prepared or adapt to Vote Leave running the campaign he’d expect from Farage.williamglenn said:
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
Simply he didn’t think Gove, Hannan et al would focus on immigration/dog whistle stuff on Turkey.
I think if Farage has fronted that campaign Leave would have been gubbed.0 -
He didn't think Gove would be pushing Leave at all....TheScreamingEagles said:
I think Dave will admit his biggest failing was not being prepared or adapt to Vote Leave running the campaign he’d expect from Farage.williamglenn said:
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
Simply he didn’t think Gove, Hannan et al would focus on immigration/dog whistle stuff on Turkey.0 -
Presumably you're already signed up to the "Britain offered a fantastic mutually beneficial deal but those nasty Europeans rejected it and so everything that happens isn't our fault but theirs".MarqueeMark said:
I hope she gets a decent rest. Maybe she now has the supreme serenity of someone who has done all they can with Brussels and knows that our departure from the EU will be untroubled by further discussions....
Really ? Well they do say you can fool all of the people some of the time or perhaps about the length of a GE campaign.
0 -
Yes Farage was finished as a leader of the campaign after his do not treat HIV patients from Africa on TV.TheScreamingEagles said:
I know.tlg86 said:
But you said that sort of campaign would not work!TheScreamingEagles said:
I think Dave will admit his biggest failing was not being prepared or adapt to Vote Leave running the campaign he’d expect from Farage.williamglenn said:
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
Simply he didn’t think Gove, Hannan et al would focus on immigration/dog whistle stuff on Turkey.
I think if Farage has fronted that campaign Leave would have been gubbed.0 -
That is superb.Cyclefree said:
Labour thinks it is right. It thinks it consists of good persons. It thinks it is anti-racist. Therefore because that is how it describes itself it therefore follows that everything it does is therefore good and anti-racist. That is where it claims to get its moral authority from.
Of course, all it shows in this narcissistic "I am good therefore everything I do is good" nonsense is that it has no understanding of what morality means. It is not what you say or how you describe yourself which is important. It is what you do which counts.
To the Labour left represented by Corbyn et al, principles are simply a way of describing how wonderful they are. They do not - and refuse to - understand that principles are a Kantian moral imperative which should determine how you act.
In their attitude to Jews (but not just them) Corbyn, his acolytes, his supporters and those who refuse to do anything about him despite their alleged queasiness are despicable, simply despicable. Their indulgence of anti-semitism, of Nazi language, of Holocaust denial, of an utter indifference to the concerns of a minority which has contributed so much to British life in the centuries it has been here and which has faced persecution and discrimination and unimaginable cruelty is a disgrace. Their actions have allowed vile racist material and thoughts and words and actions to become widespread and mainstream in a way which shames them and will shame the nation if Corbyn's Labour is ever elected into government.0 -
Just long enough to get our majority of 2. We must win in 2022, a Corbyn victory needs to be taken off the table, even if it means we have to use VL style tactics to win. If the Tory party isn't in favour of winning then what's the point of it?stodge said:
Presumably you're already signed up to the "Britain offered a fantastic mutually beneficial deal but those nasty Europeans rejected it and so everything that happens isn't our fault but theirs".MarqueeMark said:
I hope she gets a decent rest. Maybe she now has the supreme serenity of someone who has done all they can with Brussels and knows that our departure from the EU will be untroubled by further discussions....
Really ? Well they do say you can fool all of the people some of the time or perhaps about the length of a GE campaign.0 -
Depending on who you talk to Gove had assured Dave he wouldn’t campaign for Leave.MarqueeMark said:
He didn't think Gove would be pushing Leave at all....TheScreamingEagles said:
I think Dave will admit his biggest failing was not being prepared or adapt to Vote Leave running the campaign he’d expect from Farage.williamglenn said:
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
Simply he didn’t think Gove, Hannan et al would focus on immigration/dog whistle stuff on Turkey.
But when he saw that Leave was likely to be fronted by Boris and Farage he thought Leave would lose 75/25.
So he thought if he joined in Leave would lose 45/55 and the EU would see it as this far and no further.0 -
Shippers has his sources I have mine.John_M said:
That's not how Shipman tells it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I think Dave will admit his biggest failing was not being prepared or adapt to Vote Leave running the campaign he’d expect from Farage.williamglenn said:
He screwed up his own strategy because he didn't understand the EU and didn't understand the nature of his enemies.TheScreamingEagles said:
The referendum train was coming regardless it just happened on Dave’s watch.anothernick said:
Both of whom were complete disasters, IDS f*cked the party and Cameron f*cked the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because I feel there’s enough of us to fight the good fight and bring the Tory party to sanity.tpfkar said:
Why do you put up with it? I know you have established friendships, but I nearly joined the Tory party a long time ago (Rik W was close to getting me to sign up at a pb.com meetup many moons ago.) But there is no way that the Tory party then is recognisable now, and it's moved a million miles away from both of us. I'd have left if I'd ever joined. Why stay joined to something you have such disgust for?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
We did it before and I feel we can do it again. In four years we went from IDS to Dave.
And then we have May, who is so dire that many people are Considering Corbyn as a better alternative.
What have we done to deserve such an incompetent bunch of clowns?
Simply he didn’t think Gove, Hannan et al would focus on immigration/dog whistle stuff on Turkey.
I’ll mention it to Dave next time I have lunch with him.0 -
Then after the vote, the so called leaders of the country whether politicians, editors, University chiefs poured a whole load of shit over the leave voters heads..."ralphmalph said:
Two points. The people in the country wanted to talk about immigration for a long time, I do not believe they wanted to talk about immigration in a racist way. They were continually denied, told lies and insulted over it. Just basic intolerance. The Leave Campaign fed off this in as you say another intolerant way.TheScreamingEagles said:
Just look at the Vote Leave social media and you’ll get your answer.ralphmalph said:
But the question is why has the country become so intolerant of other peoples views positions?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
Then after the vote, the so called leaders of the country whether politicians, editors, University chiefs poured a whole load of shit over the leave voters heads, they were thick ignorant, racist, northerners who then every one of them went on a hate crimes spree. Just more intolerance all they did was vote.
Now we are on to anti-semitism and on it goes.
We are in a spiral of intolerance and two wrongs do not make a right.
How do we sort this mess out should be the burning question for all political parties at the moment.
That would include the editors of the Daily Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph would it? In fact, can you show me a link to any paper that "poured a whole load of shit over the leave voters heads"?
On the other hand we had: 'Crush the Saboteurs' and 'Enemies of the People' from the Daily Mail, 'Great Britain or Great Betrayal' from the Sun, and 'The Brexit Mutineers' from the Telegraph. Who is pouring a whole load of shit over whom?
0 -
That is my whole point we are in a spiral of intolerance. What you quote was the reaction to the former. The spiral.Benpointer said:
Then after the vote, the so called leaders of the country whether politicians, editors, University chiefs poured a whole load of shit over the leave voters heads..."ralphmalph said:
Two points. The people in the country wanted to talk about immigration for a long time, I do not believe they wanted to talk about immigration in a racist way. They were continually denied, told lies and insulted over it. Just basic intolerance. The Leave Campaign fed off this in as you say another intolerant way.TheScreamingEagles said:
Just look at the Vote Leave social media and you’ll get your answer.ralphmalph said:
But the question is why has the country become so intolerant of other peoples views positions?TheScreamingEagles said:Discourse in this country has gone down the toilet.
On the Corbyn left you have people questioning the loyalty of Jews to this country and on the Brexit right anyone who voted Remain or points out Leave is going sub optimally is a traitor.
Sad.
Then after the vote, the so called leaders of the country whether politicians, editors, University chiefs poured a whole load of shit over the leave voters heads, they were thick ignorant, racist, northerners who then every one of them went on a hate crimes spree. Just more intolerance all they did was vote.
Now we are on to anti-semitism and on it goes.
We are in a spiral of intolerance and two wrongs do not make a right.
How do we sort this mess out should be the burning question for all political parties at the moment.
That would include the editors of the Daily Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph would it? In fact, can you show me a link to any paper that "poured a whole load of shit over the leave voters heads"?
On the other hand we had: 'Crush the Saboteurs' and 'Enemies of the People' from the Daily Mail, 'Great Britain or Great Betrayal' from the Sun, and 'The Brexit Mutineers' from the Telegraph. Who is pouring a whole load of shit over whom?0 -
A big boy did it and ran away type excuse deployed.
https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/10228363544876441600
