TOPPING said:

RobD said:

grabcocque said:

TOPPING said:

Boris making a case for no deal.

We're doing it lads, it's actually happening.

The Good Ship Maybot and her army of Mogglodyte tugs are going over the Brexit falls with the entire country in tow.

I don’t think May wants no deal. Why would she bother with Chequers if so?

Boris has trashed Chequers. TINA to no deal if the party go with him.

Big if but it's there for the taking if they fancy it. If not, then as @TSE notes, it's a damp squib.

Maybe, but that doesn’t mean May wants a no deal outcome.

murali_s said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

grabcocque said:

TOPPING said:

Boris making a case for no deal.

We're doing it lads, it's actually happening.

The Good Ship Maybot and her army of Mogglodyte tugs are going over the Brexit falls with the entire country in tow.

Bring it on.

I'm looking forward to it.

Make the plebs suffer for voting for economic ruin. That's democracy folk.

It'll destroy the reputations of so many leavers permanently, like the appeasers of the 1930s.

Yes, the hardest of hard Brexits incoming!! Thanks a bunch f*cking Leavers!

Brexit=a calamity!

Brexiteers=xenophobes/little Englanders/thickos (delete as appropriate).

Ah, at least we’re no longer ugly

justin124 said:

Benpointer said:

justin124 said:

Paisley Jnr's absence when it comes to 'ping pong' could prove crucial re-several of the ammendments voted on Monday given that both Cable and Farron will be sure to vote next time. The 3 vote margins would become ties!

Swinson too.

I believe Swinson was paired on Monday. No suggestion of cheating.

He just inadvertently forgot, how opportune.

RobD said:

murali_s said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

grabcocque said:

TOPPING said:

Boris making a case for no deal.

We're doing it lads, it's actually happening.

The Good Ship Maybot and her army of Mogglodyte tugs are going over the Brexit falls with the entire country in tow.

Bring it on.

I'm looking forward to it.

Make the plebs suffer for voting for economic ruin. That's democracy folk.

It'll destroy the reputations of so many leavers permanently, like the appeasers of the 1930s.

Yes, the hardest of hard Brexits incoming!! Thanks a bunch f*cking Leavers!

Brexit=a calamity!

Brexiteers=xenophobes/little Englanders/thickos (delete as appropriate).

Ah, at least we’re no longer ugly

He was coming on to that point

Morris_Dancer said:

It doesn't get nearly the censure it deserves.

Agreed.

During a Marr interview Corbyn praised China under Mao for having reduced poverty, completely ignoring the millions murdered by that tyrant. Then he smirked as if he had made some worthwhile point.

Imagine if May had praised Mr Hitler for reducing unemployment in pre-war Germany.

I have heard intelligent well-educated people handwave away Cuba's total lack of democracy, locking up of opponents etc on the basis that they had good healthcare. There's a moral blindness there which is quite sickening. Proof - if proof were needed - that education is no bar to being a moral nitwit.

It's interesting why this is so. I can think of four reasons:-

1. To condemn Communism would make it all too easy for opponents to condemn socialism. At what point does socialism turn into communism, for instance? And remember that socialism was the term used by Stalin & others. Amongst some it must feel like attacking a family member.
2. Wilful blindness.
3. A misplaced feeling that because of Russia's suffering during WW2 & because she was our ally somehow her crimes ought to be excused. This is made easier by pointing to the fact that there were a significant number of people in places like Ukraine & the Baltic states who collaborated with the Nazis, which damns them for all eternity, all context/history to be ignored.
4. Russia's and China's crimes were far away, were not filmed, the victims - with only a few exceptions - have no voice so we do not have the harrowing images or elderly people speaking about what happened that we have with Nazism's crimes. Communism's crimes were in a far away land of which we know nothing. All too easy for those who want to to overlook them.

It is an oddity that despite the fact that Fascism & Nazism were pretty comprehensively defeated & because, fortunately, being a fascist or a Nazi is something that is a complete no-no in any sort of polite civilised company, people still seem to see Fascists everywhere. Meanwhile it is perfectly possible for people to call themselves Communists without others showing the same degree of horror at their moral barbarity. E.g Eric Hobsbawm.

Personally I think anyone who seeks to handwave away or excuse or justify the gulags & the unspeakable evil that was done in them & in Ukraine& elsewhere is simply not someone who should be given a moment's attention, much as I would not give a moment's attention to someone like a David Irving or a Jean-Marie Le Pen who tried to excuse or minimise the Holocaust.

And yet excusing the crimes of Communist China or Communist Russia or denying the evils of the Nazi holocaust is something which is increasingly common &, sadly, in the case of some on the Left, they manage - in the sort of political analysis of which Houdini might have been proud - to do it for all three regimes at the same time.

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1019588525577134080

Did you catch the point of order?

malcolmg said:

justin124 said:

Benpointer said:

justin124 said:

Paisley Jnr's absence when it comes to 'ping pong' could prove crucial re-several of the ammendments voted on Monday given that both Cable and Farron will be sure to vote next time. The 3 vote margins would become ties!

Swinson too.

I believe Swinson was paired on Monday. No suggestion of cheating.

He just inadvertently forgot, how opportune.

If he just 'forgot' then it is a high level of sheer incompetence.

I don't know how pairing should work, and I suppose there's a possibility that the whips misinformed him of when he should and should not vote; but that just shifts the blame onto the whips.

Anyone know how the Conservatives organise pairing?

RobD said:

Did you catch the point of order?

Yes. It was OK, but Bercow stopped it

williamglenn said:

david_herdson said:

williamglenn said:

Brom said:

williamglenn said:

Brom said:

williamglenn said:

I think you're getting confused with an entirely different poll from Opinium which asked a different question.

No, the poll Faisal tweeted about who definitely YouGov. As usual he's been selective with his information in the hope of getting retweets from his cultish FBPE followers.

I gave you the figures from the YouGov poll. The number you're quoting comes from a different poll with a different question.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1018422232534732800

I'm actually on the YouGov website looking at the data tables! It clearly says only 36% want a referendum question including Remain as an option. Data taken from past 2 days, so even more recent than that Opinium one. It's the same YouGov that Faisal has selectively taken his info from.

So in the space of a few posts you've gone from unanimous opposition, to 25% support, to 36% support (which is 43% removing don't knows)...

The fact that it's same YouGov poll that gives Remain a clear win doesn't strengthen your case.

It doesn't give Remain a clear win. It gives it a knife-edge position on the first vote, with the Leave options split, and then a 55-45 lead on reallocations. That's exactly the same as the lead that Populus gave Remain the day before the actual poll in 2016. For Remain to win based on second-preference votes from people who actually want to Leave would be a pretty sketchy mandate.

Given that Remain got 50% on first preferences, the reallocation is academic.

Also, this is the state of play today and just gives a snapshot of opinion. In a real vote, No Deal wouldn't get anything like this level of support.

Do you have any evidence for that?

david_herdson said:

Replacing one marginal win based on iffy assertions and dodgy accounting,

Acknowledging that would be a start.

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1019589028813983744

https://twitter.com/jarmodj/status/1019589824406261761

TOPPING said:

May in all sorts of trouble about tariff collection.

Edit: although probably about 20 people are actually watching this so the fact that her tariff scheme is simply fantasy la-la land will be missed I'm sure.

Do the questioners even have a clue

TOPPING said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TOPPING said:

May in all sorts of trouble about tariff collection.

Edit: although probably about 20 people are actually watching this so the fact that her tariff scheme is simply fantasy la-la land will be missed I'm sure.

Do the questioners even have a clue

Yes Big G because she (Yvette Cooper) used a sneaky, underhand, duplicitous strategy: she read to Theresa May verbatim from Theresa May's White Paper.

But that does not mean she has a clue. You only need to look at HIPS for that

Ishmael_Z said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

grabcocque said:

TOPPING said:

Boris making a case for no deal.

We're doing it lads, it's actually happening.

The Good Ship Maybot and her army of Mogglodyte tugs are going over the Brexit falls with the entire country in tow.

Bring it on.

I'm looking forward to it.

Make the plebs suffer for voting for economic ruin. That's democracy folk.

It'll destroy the reputations of so many leavers permanently, like the appeasers of the 1930s.

If "democracy" contains too many syllables for you, the political system in this country is: thick proles get to vote. It is the job of competent politicians to work with and round that problem. The sole architect of all this is sitting in the shepherd's hut polishing his forehead and writing his memoirs while you tell us that the sun shines out of his fundament because he went to Eton and won an election.

But he was rather good at his job and a policeman got married because of him, so that's fine. Give the man an earldom.

I know, I'm happy for the proles. The proles will never be able inaccurately say that their vote doesn't count thanks to the referendum.

Ran out of time to edit, so:

williamglenn said:

david_herdson said:

williamglenn said:

Brom said:

williamglenn said:

I gave you the figures from the YouGov poll. The number you're quoting comes from a different poll with a different question.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1018422232534732800

I'm actually on the YouGov website looking at the data tables! It clearly says only 36% want a referendum question including Remain as an option. Data taken from past 2 days, so even more recent than that Opinium one. It's the same YouGov that Faisal has selectively taken his info from.

So in the space of a few posts you've gone from unanimous opposition, to 25% support, to 36% support (which is 43% removing don't knows)...

The fact that it's same YouGov poll that gives Remain a clear win doesn't strengthen your case.

It doesn't give Remain a clear win. It gives it a knife-edge position on the first vote, with the Leave options split, and then a 55-45 lead on reallocations. That's exactly the same as the lead that Populus gave Remain the day before the actual poll in 2016. For Remain to win based on second-preference votes from people who actually want to Leave would be a pretty sketchy mandate.

Given that Remain got 50% on first preferences, the reallocation is academic.

Also, this is the state of play today and just gives a snapshot of opinion. In a real vote, No Deal wouldn't get anything like this level of support.

Remain is almost certainly just short of 50%. If you look at the table at the bottomg of p4, you can see from where DKs/WNVs are included, that the combined Leave vote (15+28=43) is less than Remain's 42. Now it is just possible that the rounding effects could be 14.6+27.6=42.2, vs Remain at 42.4, but the likelihood is pretty low. On the figures as published, it'd be extremely likely to go to a second vote - and critically, it would mean that Leave had outpolled Remain.

And do you have any evidence for your assertion, because it looks to me like wishful thinking?

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1019591820173627395

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1019584068688769025

Fake News...

Haha - typical Boris!

Disingenuous duplicitous LIAR. Anyway he is history now (Thank God!)

So how's Boris going to get away from breaking the ministerial code?

I remember HYUFD declaring Jeremy Hunt was doomed because he had been referred for a breach too.

Ishmael_Z said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Ishmael_Z said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

grabcocque said:

TOPPING said:

Boris making a case for no deal.

We're doing it lads, it's actually happening.

The Good Ship Maybot and her army of Mogglodyte tugs are going over the Brexit falls with the entire country in tow.

Bring it on.

I'm looking forward to it.

Make the plebs suffer for voting for economic ruin. That's democracy folk.

It'll destroy the reputations of so many leavers permanently, like the appeasers of the 1930s.

If "democracy" contains too many syllables for you, the political system in this country is: thick proles get to vote. It is the job of competent politicians to work with and round that problem. The sole architect of all this is sitting in the shepherd's hut polishing his forehead and writing his memoirs while you tell us that the sun shines out of his fundament because he went to Eton and won an election.

But he was rather good at his job and a policeman got married because of him, so that's fine. Give the man an earldom.

I know, I'm happy for the proles. The proles will never be able inaccurately say that their vote doesn't count thanks to the referendum.

The country was indeed ruined by the voters.

In 2015.

Don't blame me!

I voted Labour (Ed Milliband) in 2015! If only others had followed, we would not be in this mess now!

Off-topic:

For anyone who wants rocket fun, Blue Origin might be doing a suborbital hop of their rocket at 16.00. It's an in-flight abort test, which might mean it ends up being rather spectacular.

You can watch it here:
https://www.blueorigin.com/#youtube

On the last such test, they expected the rocket to blow up. It didn't, and landed for reuse. It'll be interesting to see if the same happens again.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Make the plebs suffer for voting for economic ruin. That's democracy folk.

TSE = Goebbels!

"I feel no sympathy. I repeat, I feel no sympathy! The German people chose their fate. That may surprise some people. Don't fool yourself. We didn't force the German people. They gave us the mandate. And now their little throats are being cut."

- Joseph Goebbels, 1945.