politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A year ago BoJo was hot favourite for PM: Now those concerned
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Thankfully for all his other myriad faults Trump has not yet hijacked the English language. As amply illustrated by Barnesian using exactly the same word to describe an opponent 20 minutes before I did.logical_song said:
'Sad' - Trump's favourite word.Richard_Tyndall said:
I wasn't being serious. Just having a dig at Alastair and his obsession with blaming Brexit on xenophobia and demanding that everyone else agree with him. It is more than a little sad.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
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Mr. Sandpit, ah, cheers. Harder getting weather forecasts for such places.0
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Slight adjustment to reflect the realityFoxy said:
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it, but then the coalition came in and their policies were not so mean spirited or destructive.Richard_Tyndall said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
(In all seriousness, my memories include Thatcher and I would certainly say Blair and Brown were more vicious, divisive, destructive and damaging than she was, which is not to praise Thatcher.)0 -
I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.Foxy said:
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.Casino_Royale said:
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.Foxy said:
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.0 -
So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.0 -
Ref wants a German win.....0
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Hmm. To be fair I can. And amazing as it might be to say something nice about him, to his credit so has Mr Meeks.Casino_Royale said:
I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.Foxy said:
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.Casino_Royale said:
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.Foxy said:
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.0 -
Indeed. The F3 and F2 races are both in the morning, so I guess we’ll have to try and listen to what people at the track are saying on Twitter. Sky coverage of the track parade starts at T-100’Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Sandpit, ah, cheers. Harder getting weather forecasts for such places.
BTW, Kimi for a podium at 3.5 might have a little value in the rain.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/motor-sport/event/28763238/market?marketId=1.1446154880 -
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.0 -
Mr. Sandpit, not so sure. The Mercedes has the new engine and the Red Bulls should be tasty in the wet. Plus, Bottas apparently did some wet weather testing at the circuit.0
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Mr Meeks, definitely. Foxy has been consistently retweeting and applauding every Remain meme going that I can recall.Richard_Tyndall said:
Hmm. To be fair I can. And amazing as it might be to say something nice about him, to his credit so has Mr Meeks.Casino_Royale said:
I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.Foxy said:
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.Casino_Royale said:
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.Foxy said:
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a
Disgraceful.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.0 -
Xenophobia like this? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/08/brexit-jungle-camp-england-calaisAlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.0 -
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.0 -
I couldn’t agree more.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.0 -
A few points there,FF43 said:
If both your examples (one good and one bad) are in the EU, leaving the EU won't help Britain. I am interested in Brexit outcomes, but I don't think you can definitively say what will happen and the extent to which that outcome is informed by Brexit. I would make two observations. There are virtually no known Brexit upsides or known unknowns with potential upsides. There are plenty of downsides. There may be unknown unknowns with upsides but by definition you can't model those. The other point is that the UK went suddenly from an economic outperformer to underperformer following the Brexit referendum. The two events are likely to be connected.BigRich said:
at.FF43 said:
t.DavidL said:
o.AlastairMeeks said:The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
The first, yes that is the point I was making, perhaps not clearly enough, but absolutely Domestic policy is far more important than in/out of the EU, and there are big examples to demonstrate this. agreed.
Second, the most quoted advantage directly tied to leaving the EU is the '£350 million a week' or whatever the real number is, to me this is small but it is an advantage. The two areas that could make a big difference are International Traid, and deregulation, both of witch can now happen, but saying something can happen and will happen are very different.
I am curese what you think are the defiant downsides? whether we can still trade with the EU tariff free is still to be determined, as is free movement/NI boarder and much more. I am not saying there are not any, but Like the 350 million a week they are IMO small and often overstated.
the UK growth rate has been slightly less in the last year than it was in 15/16 while it is possible this is related to BREXIT, there are plenty of other reasons and its very difficult to say when the change is small, it is also possible that GDP Grouth rates are just wrong, based on the number of new jobs created, increase in tax revenue, new inward investment, the GDP fingers are not aligning.
What we can say for defiant is that, if the predictions made by institutions run by Remainders and repeated by the remain campaign where correct then, the UK should be in a recession if the predictions, repeated by the remain side were right, they were wrong very wrong.
To coin a phrase, 'Its not BREXIT, its what you do with it that relay counts'
INBIWUDWITRC anybody?0 -
This movement is only going to grow in strength.0
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Only going to get even better at picking flattering camera angles?williamglenn said:This movement is only going to grow in strength.
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I agree with you though the hardcore remainers and Brexiteers are as bad as each other.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
The media have been in their element today reporting the march but I do not see it making any difference.
Just give TM space to negotiate0 -
Well done Sweden so far0
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Ref won't be happy - nothing he could do there to help Germany!0
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+1Big_G_NorthWales said:
I agree with you though the hardcore remainers and Brexiteers are as bad as each other.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
The media have been in their element today reporting the march but I do not see it making any difference.
Just give TM space to negotiate
That’s all I ask for.0 -
What odds on Germany and Merkel both out the same weekend0
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To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?0
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http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-nearest-run-thing/williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
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I don't think it's his primary issue, trident is much closer to his heart and he was happy to keep it as Labour policy, I wouldn't be surprised if Labour members were on his side on that issue but he kept it for pragmatic reasons.JosiasJessop said:
Because he wants too leave, because (amongst other reasons) the EU gets in the way of changes he would like to bring in. Yet many (most?) of his supporters were remainers.TheJezziah said:JosiasJessop said:
Now, now. I've never said (and would not say) that the Palestinians are evil. Nice bit of projection there.TheJezziah said:
I don't think he planned on going on the march regardless of whether he was doing something or not, so he was free to do other things. Even things like taking time out for the evil Palestinians....JosiasJessop said:
There are a few options:TheJezziah said:
It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...FrancisUrquhart said:Sandpit said:rottenborough said:wow. just wow. this is the cult in action:
ttps://twitter.com/ronanburtenshaw/status/1010545006497722368
*) He deliberately planned the trip to avoid the rally.
*) He was incompetent and did not realise they were on the same day.
*) He did realise, and judged the Palestinians are more important than his own countrymen.
Take your pick.
And why don't *you* think he planned to go on the march?
In this, he is being a typical charlatan politician.
Still, I'm looking forward to him meeting with the Israeli government soon ...
I'm not sure you understand democracy if you think voting remain means you ignore a result that comes up otherwise.
Labour members, me included, Corbyn and many Labour MPs voted remain. What none of us voted for was a second referendum, a people's vote or an attempt to ignore the referendum result.
Didn't you say you voted remain but think we should carry out the referendum vote?
Maybe the rest of us aren't allowed to respect votes for some strange reason...
As soon as the Israeli government is fighting to survive against an occupation supplied by military super powers whilst being ostracised by the international community I'm sure he'll be there. As it is I'm not sure they need much help anyway, the Palestinians look through throughly beaten already.0 -
"movement" as in a stream of shit?williamglenn said:This movement is only going to grow in strength.
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Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.0 -
Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.0 -
The first term of New Labour was pretty good. It was after 2001 that Blair went bonkers kissing Bush's arse and Brown went bonkers with the chequebook.ydoethur said:
Slight adjustment to reflect the realityFoxy said:
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it, but then the coalition came in and their policies were not so mean spirited or destructive.Richard_Tyndall said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
(In all seriousness, my memories include Thatcher and I would certainly say Blair and Brown were more vicious, divisive, destructive and damaging than she was, which is not to praise Thatcher.)0 -
And achieving nothingwilliamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
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That there'd be a hardcore group of people that wouldn't accept the result of the referendum? I think that was nailed on.williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
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Yes, as Remainers have a limitless capacity to whine about losing the Referendum.....williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
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You are a zealot and a loon.williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
If it hadn’t been this, you’d have found something else to hang your hat on.
Maybe a picture of a “busy” pub meet in Hackney, or a choreographed protest outside Roland Rudd’s house.0 -
In footballing news come on Sweden!0
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Well, Blair/Brown spent their first term being Continuity Ken Clarke.....Foxy said:
The first term of New Labour was pretty good. It was after 2001 that Blair went bonkers kissing Bush's arse and Brown went bonkers with the chequebook.ydoethur said:
Slight adjustment to reflect the realityFoxy said:
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it, but then the coalition came in and their policies were not so mean spirited or destructive.Richard_Tyndall said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
(In all seriousness, my memories include Thatcher and I would certainly say Blair and Brown were more vicious, divisive, destructive and damaging than she was, which is not to praise Thatcher.)0 -
+1TheJezziah said:In footballing news come on Sweden!
0 -
williamglenn said:
To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
Yes, well no, I thought there would be demonstrations on the scale of Fox hunting at lest and may be Stop the war'
After Teresa messed up the start by coming out with the Silly 'Brexit means Brexit' trying not to have a vote in parliament i thought that it would spear massive opposition. I cant think of a single MP sinse Bonar Law, who could miss handle the PR, her own party, Parliament and the negotiations themselves as badly as she has No Leadership No vision, no Planing, and still only 100,000 on the streets.0 -
Not going to happen. Politics is about choices, and we have made a bad one. There is no simple resolution to this divide, though EEA would probably be best fit.Sandpit said:
Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.0 -
Yes of course., There will always be those who refuse to accept the result of the referendum and the whole Article 50 process is designed to drag the process out over an extended period (for good reasons undoubtedly) and that gives the unreconciled hope that they can reverse it somehow.williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
It is pointless but demonstrations are not anything that either side should get upset about.0 -
There are unfortunately a hard core who want to see Britain crash and burn just to prove they were right.Sandpit said:
Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.0 -
I am proudly sitting on my IKEA sofa yelling my head off for Sweden. I doubt I am alone.Big_G_NorthWales said:
+1TheJezziah said:In footballing news come on Sweden!
0 -
I think - from a legislative journey perspective - the only way to go is to initially transfer everything across, and then remove stuff piecemeal over time. However, given the UK's history in this area - and the willingess to goldplate EU regulation - I suspect that there won't be much here that will have a dramatic effect.BigRich said:
Agreed! I which that the the government, the brexit negotiators or better still the Prime Minister were steadily announcing which bits of EU regulations will go the day we leave, but instead Her first/early statements that I remember where that all EU regulations would be transferred in to UK law so there would be no change, with the small caveat that we may get rid of some latter.HYUFD said:
At least Brexit might offer the chance for reduced regulations for business, Corbynism just means higher taxes and more strikesRecidivist said:
Labour would have to come up with something pretty bad for it to be worse for business than Brexit.HYUFD said:
Vince and Jo maybe, even Brexit will not see business back Marxists like Corbyn and McDonnellFoxy said:
In our topsy turvy world we may well have Business backing Jezza and John at the next election!Stark_Dawning said:
Most Tories must be praying that the old Marxist Jezza doesn't fall under a bus. What an even vaguely pro-business Labour leader could do to them now is truly frightening.williamglenn said:I see John Redwood is implicitly joining in the calls to nationalise Airbus.
https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1010108010193211393?s=21
I do think it is worth noting that the UK regulatory althoratys (and government) would typically interpret and in force the rules in the most draconian way possible, especially compared to nations like the Netherlands.
I think there is/was a clash of cultures, in the UK less rules but tightly unforced, Europe rules for lots of things but only in-force where required. the UK in the EU meant we got the worst of both woulds!!! and its silly to blames the EU for this.
If we leave but only get rid of a token amount of the regulations the we risk being in the same disadvantageous position for a protracted period of time. (that could get a lot worse is Corben becomes PM)0 -
Look around. Is there someone else in the room with you? If there is, then you are not alone, and no doubt is required.welshowl said:
I am proudly sitting on my IKEA sofa yelling my head off for Sweden. I doubt I am alone.Big_G_NorthWales said:
+1TheJezziah said:In footballing news come on Sweden!
0 -
He says the same thing three times a day because it makes him feel special. Let him be.BigRich said:
Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.0 -
F1: hmm. No new markets up for about an hour. Will give it a little longer, otherwise the pre-race ramble will be up tomorrow.0
-
Spectator has let drop in an article that Barnier has hardened his position to Ceta with NI in the customs union and that is it.Foxy said:
Not going to happen. Politics is about choices, and we have made a bad one. There is no simple resolution to this divide, though EEA would probably be best fit.Sandpit said:
Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.0 -
It was very nice for their supporters.Foxy said:
The first term of New Labour was pretty good. It was after 2001 that Blair went bonkers kissing Bush's arse and Brown went bonkers with the chequebook.ydoethur said:
Slight adjustment to reflect the realityFoxy said:
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it, but then the coalition came in and their policies were not so mean spirited or destructive.Richard_Tyndall said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
(In all seriousness, my memories include Thatcher and I would certainly say Blair and Brown were more vicious, divisive, destructive and damaging than she was, which is not to praise Thatcher.)
If you were in a rural comp that went bankrupt due to their seizing all its money to give to their client groups, it wasn't quite so rosy.0 -
100,000+ people marching in favour of the EU is quite something anywhere in Europe, let alone the UK. I doubt it will have any direct effect, but it is something that can be cited should public opinion turn. If that does happen, some leading politicians who were not there will have cause to regret it.williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
0 -
Making excuses already.Richard_Tyndall said:
There are unfortunately a hard core who want to see Britain crash and burn just to prove they were right.Sandpit said:
Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.0 -
Lol.rcs1000 said:
Look around. Is there someone else in the room with you? If there is, then you are not alone, and no doubt is required.welshowl said:
I am proudly sitting on my IKEA sofa yelling my head off for Sweden. I doubt I am alone.Big_G_NorthWales said:
+1TheJezziah said:In footballing news come on Sweden!
0 -
Says the man who casts doubt on a man’s integrity based on his parentage.Elliot said:
He says the same thing three times a day because it makes him feel special. Let him be.BigRich said:
Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.0 -
If we head into a ‘no deal’ stand-off this is laying the ground for a Euromaidan style protest.SouthamObserver said:
100,000+ people marching in favour of the EU is quite something anywhere in Europe, let alone the UK. I doubt it will have any direct effect, but it is something that can be cited should public opinion turn. If that does happen, some leading politicians who were not there will have cause to regret it.williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
0 -
Why pick on Bonar Law? 209 days in office didn't give him much chance to mess up. Were you thinking of Baldwin and the Tarriff Election of 1923?BigRich said:williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
Yes, well no, I thought there would be demonstrations on the scale of Fox hunting at lest and may be Stop the war'
After Teresa messed up the start by coming out with the Silly 'Brexit means Brexit' trying not to have a vote in parliament i thought that it would spear massive opposition. I cant think of a single MP sinse Bonar Law, who could miss handle the PR, her own party, Parliament and the negotiations themselves as badly as she has No Leadership No vision, no Planing, and still only 100,000 on the streets.0 -
Not in the least. They are going to be disappointed and there is absolutely nothing they can do to change that.MikeSmithson said:
Making excuses already.Richard_Tyndall said:
There are unfortunately a hard core who want to see Britain crash and burn just to prove they were right.Sandpit said:
Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
Just pointing out one of the facts you conveniently like to ignore.0 -
I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.BigRich said:
Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.0 -
He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.Casino_Royale said:
I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.Foxy said:
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.Casino_Royale said:
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.Foxy said:
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.0 -
The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.0 -
Have they?Sean_F said:
The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
I think a great many ex-miners would not altogether agree...
0 -
Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.Sean_F said:
The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.0 -
Look who’s talking.surby said:
He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.Casino_Royale said:
I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.Foxy said:
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.Casino_Royale said:
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.Foxy said:
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.0 -
Ah, but this time it’s the urban middle class who feel they’re on the losing side.Sean_F said:
The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.0 -
Bonar Law is a man I 'like to dislike' if you know what I mean? (and is in some ways pertenant to Teresa May, bot became leaders of there partys when all the opposition doped out for other reasons.)ydoethur said:
Why pick on Bonar Law? 209 days in office didn't give him much chance to mess up. Were you thinking of Baldwin and the Tarriff Election of 1923?BigRich said:williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
Yes, well no, I thought there would be demonstrations on the scale of Fox hunting at lest and may be Stop the war'
After Teresa messed up the start by coming out with the Silly 'Brexit means Brexit' trying not to have a vote in parliament i thought that it would spear massive opposition. I cant think of a single MP sinse Bonar Law, who could miss handle the PR, her own party, Parliament and the negotiations themselves as badly as she has No Leadership No vision, no Planing, and still only 100,000 on the streets.
he also sore no valuse in free trade, ( i am simplifying but his actions ended the time when the UK has almost complete free traded from the abolition of the corn laws till him the UK was THE training nation and became rich and powerful, since him we have got weather in absolute terms but less so relative to the rest of the would.
0 -
Look who’s talking 2....Casino_Royale said:
Look who’s talking.surby said:
He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.Casino_Royale said:
I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.Foxy said:
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.Casino_Royale said:
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.Foxy said:
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UKwould describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
0 -
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.0 -
Awful sequel.Nigelb said:
Look who’s talking 2....Casino_Royale said:
Look who’s talking.surby said:
He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.Casino_Royale said:
I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.Foxy said:
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.Casino_Royale said:
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.Foxy said:
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsureRichard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UKwould describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.0 -
Yes. Losers don't like admitting defeat especially when that defeat hasn't been implemented. There have been much bigger marches before doesn't make them anything special.williamglenn said:To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
See the protests that follow any Tory government. Though the biggest protests I can think of ironically were under Blair and they dwarf today.0 -
The EU position really does seem to be either the annexation of Northern Ireland or No Deal where the planes stop flying.ralphmalph said:
Spectator has let drop in an article that Barnier has hardened his position to Ceta with NI in the customs union and that is it.Foxy said:
Not going to happen. Politics is about choices, and we have made a bad one. There is no simple resolution to this divide, though EEA would probably be best fit.Sandpit said:
Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
Where do they honestly expect us to go from here, except to call their bluff?0 -
Number 1 was shocking enoughCasino_Royale said:
Awful sequel.Nigelb said:
Look who’s talking 2....Casino_Royale said:
Look who’s talking.surby said:
He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.Casino_Royale said:
I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.Foxy said:
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.Casino_Royale said:
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.Foxy said:
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsureRichard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UKwould describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
0 -
https://i.imgflip.com/139rfe.jpgralphmalph said:
Spectator has let drop in an article that Barnier has hardened his position to Ceta with NI in the customs union and that is it.Foxy said:
Not going to happen. Politics is about choices, and we have made a bad one. There is no simple resolution to this divide, though EEA would probably be best fit.Sandpit said:
Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.JosiasJessop said:
To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.Casino_Royale said:So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.
Interesting. Very interesting.
*If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.
I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.0 -
Pretty well my point.Casino_Royale said:
Awful sequel.Nigelb said:
Look who’s talking 2....Casino_Royale said:
Look who’s talking.surby said:
He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.Casino_Royale said:
I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.Foxy said:
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.Casino_Royale said:
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.Foxy said:
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, I'm unsureRichard_Tyndall said:
I have often think the man doth protest tooU.Philip_Thompson said:AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
0 -
Yet you are pointedly ignoring remain's even worse pandering to xenophobia.AlastairMeeks said:
I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.BigRich said:
Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
Leave quoted the government own policy and its pandering to xenophobia.
Remain claimed a jungle of migrants would come to the UK if we voted to leave and total silence from you.0 -
Indeed the former coalfields map well to the areas that voted Leave. Bringing down Cameron and London was their revenge served cold.ydoethur said:
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.0 -
Nobody said conspiring that I noticed.AlastairMeeks said:
Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.Sean_F said:
The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
More that Remain-leaning statisticians are allowing their own bias to cloud their judgement.0 -
1) you’re talking bollocks. Leave’s campaign was based around xenophobia. In response you cite one instance from Remain which it has taken even you two years to recall.Philip_Thompson said:
Yet you are pointedly ignoring remain's even worse pandering to xenophobia.AlastairMeeks said:
I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.BigRich said:
Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
Leave quoted the government own policy and its pandering to xenophobia.
Remain claimed a jungle of migrants would come to the UK if we voted to leave and total silence from you.
2) Leave won. Britain has to deal with its success, not Remain’s failures.0 -
We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.ydoethur said:
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.0 -
And irrelevance...williamglenn said:This movement is only going to grow in strength.
0 -
There are miners kids who weren’t born at the time of the strike still bitter about it.ydoethur said:
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.
No doubt a small but significant proportion of the electorate aren’t going to let go of Brexit, either. And if it were to coincide with an economic downturn (for whatever reason), not so small.
0 -
Logs on, hoping to see some witty banter about the footie...oh ffs, not this bollocks yet again...0
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Trying to get my head round how Boating is worth £45 million. His positional sense is shocking for a defender0
-
In general international trade comes with costs applied: compliance with regulation, certification, national treatment, import duties, quotas etc. Then you try to facilitate trade with preferential trade agreements, customs unions, common regulatory systems, supranational legal systems to enforce a level playing field and the like. In the world trade system only the European Union combines all four pillars, although Australia / New Zealand trade gets closest.BigRich said:<
....
Second, the most quoted advantage directly tied to leaving the EU is the '£350 million a week' or whatever the real number is, to me this is small but it is an advantage. The two areas that could make a big difference are International Traid, and deregulation, both of witch can now happen, but saying something can happen and will happen are very different.
I am curese what you think are the defiant downsides? whether we can still trade with the EU tariff free is still to be determined, as is free movement/NI boarder and much more. I am not saying there are not any, but Like the 350 million a week they are IMO small and often overstated.
the UK growth rate has been slightly less in the last year than it was in 15/16 while it is possible this is related to BREXIT, there are plenty of other reasons and its very difficult to say when the change is small, it is also possible that GDP Grouth rates ar, based on the number of new jobs created, increase in tax revenue, new inward investment, the GDP fingers are not aligning.
...
That means a Brexited UK is a guaranteed a downgrade on facilitation of half its trade. The extent of the downgrade is up for negotiation and depends on the extent to which the UK is willing to accept being a rule taker, supranational courts and other EU demands such as freedom of movement. One thing is certain - there can't be MORE facilitation on that trade. We're talking about degrees of damage limitation.
Turning to the other half of trade. Through the EU, the UK benefits from the most comprehensive set of preferential trade agreements anywhere in the world. The UK will aim to retain as much of that system of existing PTAs as it can, but it will do so from a position of weakness with partners that will look to squeeze concessions out of the UK and get more access to UK markets while giving away less access to their own. Again it's about the extent of the downside. There is no potential upside here.
The only possible upside is if the UK negotiates trade deals with countries that don't currently have one with the EU. While this is certainly possible (I expect one with China), the potential upside is a lot smaller than the downsides I have already mentioned. In practice these deals will be very one sided in favour of the other party.0 -
Was Roy Jenkins one of them or one of us? How about Arthur Cockfield, Leon Brittan, Chris Patten or Peter Mandelson? Perhaps you’re the one who’s out of step with the British.Richard_Tyndall said:
We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.ydoethur said:
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.0 -
Swedes playing too deep now, and giving the Germans too much time on the ball.FrancisUrquhart said:Logs on, hoping to see some witty banter about the footie...oh ffs, not this bollocks yet again...
0 -
If it were to rain, Ricciardo is rather well placed, with what otherwise was a misguided high downforce setup.Morris_Dancer said:F1: hmm. No new markets up for about an hour. Will give it a little longer, otherwise the pre-race ramble will be up tomorrow.
0 -
1: Leave's campaign wasn't based around xenophobia, this is your pet peeve and yours alone. Plenty of other Remain-backers aren't obsessed about it like you. You only cite one instance too from the official Vote Leave, quoting the government's own official policy of admitting Turkey into the EU. The one instance quoted from Remain was simply pure xenophobia it wasn't quoting the other side's own proposal.AlastairMeeks said:
1) you’re talking bollocks. Leave’s campaign was based around xenophobia. In response you cite one instance from Remain which it has taken even you two years to recall.Philip_Thompson said:
Yet you are pointedly ignoring remain's even worse pandering to xenophobia.AlastairMeeks said:
I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.BigRich said:
Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.AlastairMeeks said:
Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.BigRich said:
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.Casino_Royale said:What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
Leave quoted the government own policy and its pandering to xenophobia.
Remain claimed a jungle of migrants would come to the UK if we voted to leave and total silence from you.
2) Leave won. Britain has to deal with its success, not Remain’s failures.
2: Yes we do have to deal with its success, by dealing with Brexit like other Remain backers are proposing not to deal with your imagined xenophobia.0 -
Assuming Germany v Sweden ends in a draw, I would be staggered if Sweden v Mexico ends up as anything other than a draw.0
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Swedes are looking good at the counter-attack though and are still favourites surely to progress with a draw. Germany need a victory to control their own fate in the last game.Foxy said:
Swedes playing too deep now, and giving the Germans too much time on the ball.FrancisUrquhart said:Logs on, hoping to see some witty banter about the footie...oh ffs, not this bollocks yet again...
0 -
Nope I can safely say it is you. Even many of those who voted Remain didn't particularly like the EU. They were just afraid of the alternative.williamglenn said:
Was Roy Jenkins one of them or one of us? How about Arthur Cockfield, Leon Brittan, Chris Patten or Peter Mandelson? Perhaps you’re the one who’s out of step with the British.Richard_Tyndall said:
We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.ydoethur said:
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.
You really are in a tiny minority of people in Britain who actually like the EU.0 -
Tempting fate here, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Sweden got a "against the run of play" goal.Philip_Thompson said:
Swedes are looking good at the counter-attack though and are still favourites surely to progress with a draw. Germany need a victory to control their own fate in the last game.Foxy said:
Swedes playing too deep now, and giving the Germans too much time on the ball.FrancisUrquhart said:Logs on, hoping to see some witty banter about the footie...oh ffs, not this bollocks yet again...
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This will not totals die for a long time, look at Norway many/most of the political class want to Join as do a good minority of the people, (I think 30-40%) but not majority and this has gone on for some time, I think Switzerland is the same, or simmiler. But it may get talked about a bit less,.ydoethur said:
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.
However I think you may be less accurate about the importance, the EU is 7% of would population and 14% of GDP, both of tese % as decreasing, and distance is becoming less important as Planes get faster, ships get bigger broadband internet gets Broader(?) new harbors roads railways and airports are opening up the would would so quickly.
I can see trade with the EU falling below 20% in the next 10 - 15 years.
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Thank heaven! At last somebody who can talk straight. Boris gets my vote!0
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Like, er, Germany v Austriarcs1000 said:Assuming Germany v Sweden ends in a draw, I would be staggered if Sweden v Mexico ends up as anything other than a draw.
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Indeed: a famously dodgy game.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Like, er, Germany v Austriarcs1000 said:Assuming Germany v Sweden ends in a draw, I would be staggered if Sweden v Mexico ends up as anything other than a draw.
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That’s a serious beard!0
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Absent a collapse, I think that's wishful thinking. The impact of distance on manufacturing has barely budged over time, as lean supply chains have become more important. Not an issue for services, of course.BigRich said:
This will not totals die for a long time, look at Norway many/most of the political class want to Join as do a good minority of the people, (I think 30-40%) but not majority and this has gone on for some time, I think Switzerland is the same, or simmiler. But it may get talked about a bit less,.ydoethur said:
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.
However I think you may be less accurate about the importance, the EU is 7% of would population and 14% of GDP, both of tese % as decreasing, and distance is becoming less important as Planes get faster, ships get bigger broadband internet gets Broader(?) new harbors roads railways and airports are opening up the would would so quickly.
I can see trade with the EU falling below 20% in the next 10 - 15 years.0 -
Indeed a great many who backed Remain did so because they were afraid of the economic consequences of Leaving - something Remainers still insist will cost us dearly.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope I can safely say it is you. Even many of those who voted Remain didn't particularly like the EU. They were just afraid of the alternative.williamglenn said:
Was Roy Jenkins one of them or one of us? How about Arthur Cockfield, Leon Brittan, Chris Patten or Peter Mandelson? Perhaps you’re the one who’s out of step with the British.Richard_Tyndall said:
We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.ydoethur said:
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.
You really are in a tiny minority of people in Britain who actually like the EU.
I think if everyone agreed that we would be no better or worse off whether we remained or left so decide on the politics/culture element then Leave would have won a landslide.0 -
Who do I get on with best - my next door neighbour or my friends in Cardiff? Easily the latter.BigRich said:However I think you may be less accurate about the importance, the EU is 7% of would population and 14% of GDP, both of tese % as decreasing, and distance is becoming less important as Planes get faster, ships get bigger broadband internet gets Broader(?) new harbors roads railways and airports are opening up the would would so quickly.
I can see trade with the EU falling below 20% in the next 10 - 15 years.
Who do I speak to more often? Definitely the former, because they live next door.
While the trade issue may become less pressing, it's not going to vanish and geography will dictate that Europe, as it has for three millennia, will continue to be vital to us and central to our interests.0 -
AlastairMeeks said:
I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.
1) you’re talking bollocks. Leave’s campaign was based around xenophobia. In response you cite one instance from Remain which it has taken even you two years to recall.
2) Leave won. Britain has to deal with its success, not Remain’s failures.
The remain campaign also had the "NHS will collapse if the Eastern European nurses and doctors leave."
Which begs the question of why are white doctors and nurses more important than doctors and nurses from other parts of the world because the implication is if they left or all the Brit doctors and Nurses left then the NHS would just carry on as normal.
This is simply a white immigration is better than brown immigration argument from the remain campaign. "Who do you want to be treated by in hospital a whitey or other?" Vote Remain.
The real issue here is Farage and his nasty poster was not an official campaign, I accept the Turkish stuff was. But it was the Prime Minister of the country coming out with the above stuff and the Calais stuff and that to me is really disappointing.
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That you even pose the hypothetical highlights one of the central delusions of Brexit - the idea that politics can be separated from economics and that we can leave without consequences.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed a great many who backed Remain did so because they were afraid of the economic consequences of Leaving - something Remainers still insist will cost us dearly.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope I can safely say it is you. Even many of those who voted Remain didn't particularly like the EU. They were just afraid of the alternative.williamglenn said:
Was Roy Jenkins one of them or one of us? How about Arthur Cockfield, Leon Brittan, Chris Patten or Peter Mandelson? Perhaps you’re the one who’s out of step with the British.Richard_Tyndall said:
We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.ydoethur said:
The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).AlastairMeeks said:Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.
And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.
If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.
Passions cooling? Not for decades.
You really are in a tiny minority of people in Britain who actually like the EU.
I think if everyone agreed that we would be no better or worse off whether we remained or left so decide on the politics/culture element then Leave would have won a landslide.0
