TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1009464043617255425?s=21

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1009464043617255425?s=21

Nearly as disgraceful as when she retweeted that those raped schoolgirls should've kept their mouths shut.

#justsaying

Stark_Dawning said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1009462594124550145

Did Jezza actually want the government to lose? Theresa will now own all the Brexit she surveys. Is that particularly beneficial?

Perhaps he is channelling Zhou Enlai - he has waited this far, he doesn't want to blow it by being associated with Brexit now he is within touching distance.

I wonder if this will lead to Fox News not being so supportive of Donald Trump.

The backlash against Fox News following its coverage of President Trump's immigration policy is spilling over to the Murdoch-run company's entertainment divisions, and the timing is anything but ideal.

With 21st Century Fox readying itself for a major asset sale, maintaining a stable of top talent is not only optically important, but also key to its value. And yet, amid the cable network’s coverage of families being separated at the Mexico-U.S. border, at least two of 20th Century Fox TV's top producers, Family Guy's Seth MacFarlane and Modern Family's Steve Levitan, chose to distance themselves. Taking to Twitter, both voiced their embarrassment over their personal affiliation with the owners of Fox News. Levitan went so far as to say he was so repulsed by the network's coverage that he'd be parting ways with the company, though he’d later backtrack via his agency.

Other high-profile entertainers have chimed in, too, including Judd Apatow, who called on other Fox talent to express their outrage and protest over the network’s coverage. (A sampling: Tucker Carlson encouraged his viewers to trust no one but Fox News on the subject; and Laura Ingraham, whom the network has since defended, told hers that child detention centers are "essentially summer camps [or] boarding schools.") Still, many of 20th TV's top producers — including those, like Empire co-creator Lee Daniels, who are typically outspoken, especially on matters involving Trump — have opted to remain silent on the issue.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/fox-news-border-controversy-adds-pressure-pending-20th-tv-producer-deals-1121565

Fenster said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1009464043617255425?s=21

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1009464043617255425?s=21

Nearly as disgraceful as when she retweeted that those raped schoolgirls should've kept their mouths shut.

#justsaying

Perhaps he should organize a protest

Stark_Dawning said:

Jezza has played a blinder. The nation will now view Theresa and the Tories as wholly responsible for the Brexit we actually get, which will presumably be Rees-Mogg's preferred option. The political dividends to be reaped may be massive.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

The Jezza who did not lift a finger to back Remain? The Jezza who refused to vote to stay in the EEA? The Jezza who has seen 9 of his MPs play a pivotal role in voting for the UK to leave the Customs Union and refusing to give Parliament the final say if No Deal? The Jezza who lost 17% of his voters to the LDs in Lewisham East last week as he was not seen as sufficiently anti Brexit?

justin124 said:

brendan16 said:

justin124 said:

Looks as if one LibDem failed to vote. Jo Swinson posibly?

Isn't she shortly going to be in labour?

Apparently she did vote!

Is Jo Swinson voting for two?

Thoughtful Remainers who criticise Leavers for having such a visceral dislike of the EU might want to ask themselves just why those feelings are so strongly held.

That requires ditching a few of the dog-ate-my-homework excuses (like blaming Murdoch, or the Daily Mail) and asking if the EU’s behaviour over the last 25 years with its total tin-ear about how strongly people feel about their national identity, and the importance of a strong democratic mandate to do anything to modify or overturn that, might have something to do with it.

Until then, and until both sides recognise that the ultra-federalists and European nationalists on one sides, and British nationalists and the purists of sovereignists on the other, are both pursuing ideologies and largely feed off each other, we won’t get very far in achieving any sort of reconciliation.

This shouldn’t be hard to do. A few of them even seriously considered voting Leave before the vote. But are now, bizarrely, uninterested in doing so and would prefer to point out that every Leave voter has the Mark of Cain upon them.

justin124 said:

Given that Nicky Morgan was dropped from the Cabinet by May , I am a bit surprised that she is not taking every available opportunity to extract revenge by joining Clarke and Soubry.

I guess if you want any kind of career advancement in the future (and I suspect Nicky still does) rebelling today would not have looked good on your CV.

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful Remainers who criticise Leavers for having such a visceral dislike of the EU might want to ask themselves just why those feelings are so strongly held.

The level of hatred is such that a psychiatrist would be of more assistance.

Until Leavers acknowledge the race-baiting campaign they fell in behind in order to pursue that visceral hatred, there is going to be no reconciliation.

Norm said:

justin124 said:

Given that Nicky Morgan was dropped from the Cabinet by May , I am a bit surprised that she is not taking every available opportunity to extract revenge by joining Clarke and Soubry.

I guess if you want any kind of career advancement in the future (and I suspect Nicky still does) rebelling today would not have looked good on your CV.

IDS rebelled and became Conservative leader a few years later. Not a terribly good one, mind.

MikeL said:

Per BBC: Conor McGinn tweet referring to "several very sick Labour MPs" being forced to come in to vote.

I thought MPs were generally a pretty healthy bunch - are several Lab MPs very sick?

And just how come the Con Maj was so high? Who were all the opposition abstentions / absences?

This was par for the course in several close votes during the Labour minority phase in the late 70s.

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful Remainers who criticise Leavers for having such a visceral dislike of the EU might want to ask themselves just why those feelings are so strongly held.

That requires ditching a few of the dog-ate-my-homework excuses (like blaming Murdoch, or the Daily Mail) and asking if the EU’s behaviour over the last 25 years with its total tin-ear about how strongly people feel about their national identity, and the importance of a strong democratic mandate to do anything to modify or overturn that, might have something to do with it.

Until then, and until both sides recognise that the ultra-federalists and European nationalists on one sides, and British nationalists and the purists of sovereignists on the other, are both pursuing ideologies and largely feed off each other, we won’t get very far in achieving any sort of reconciliation.

This shouldn’t be hard to do. A few of them even seriously considered voting Leave before the vote. But are now, bizarrely, uninterested in doing so and would prefer to point out that every Leave voter has the Mark of Cain upon them.

Remainers are a bit like Germany or Brazil at a World Cup. The only question was: would they win a lot or win a bit?

Instead they were knocked out in the group stage, and they cannot comprehend it.

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

And sadly the response will be 'it's those xenophobes/traitors fault'

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful Remainers who criticise Leavers for having such a visceral dislike of the EU might want to ask themselves just why those feelings are so strongly held.

That requires ditching a few of the dog-ate-my-homework excuses (like blaming Murdoch, or the Daily Mail) and asking if the EU’s behaviour over the last 25 years with its total tin-ear about how strongly people feel about their national identity, and the importance of a strong democratic mandate to do anything to modify or overturn that, might have something to do with it.

Until then, and until both sides recognise that the ultra-federalists and European nationalists on one sides, and British nationalists and the purists of sovereignists on the other, are both pursuing ideologies and largely feed off each other, we won’t get very far in achieving any sort of reconciliation.

This shouldn’t be hard to do. A few of them even seriously considered voting Leave before the vote. But are now, bizarrely, uninterested in doing so and would prefer to point out that every Leave voter has the Mark of Cain upon them.

Nah, the EU's fine. Of course, there are a few glitches (I agree with Richard Tyndall about fire-extinguisher colours), but on the whole it's been beneficial. Why wreck it?

anothernick said:

RobD said:

anothernick said:

Main takeaways from today's shenanigans

A If May was sure of winning she would have pushed it to a vote. She wasn't sure so she bought Grieve off - again.

B The ERG is still driving the policy agenda. They want a no deal Brexit, and that is still very much on the table after today. May has foregone another opportunity to allow the HoC to articulate the views of the majority of MPs who favour a softer line.

C The absurdity of the debate about an amendment to a motion that might allow a possible future motion to be amended is symptomatic of how Brexit has made Westminster completely dysfunctional. The country faces the biggest crisis in the lifetime of anyone born after the Second World War and politicians can only debate it in terms of arcane procedural devices which do not do justice to the colossal issues at stake and are completely baffling to most people.

D The government is unable to lead, it remains riven and personal animosities are worse than ever. May is the weakest PM for many generations and she is viewed with distrust and contempt on all sides, her own colleagues included. It becomes harder by the day to see how it can reach an acceptable withdrawal deal.

What was the compromise this time around?

I believe it was an amendment to make it clear that a future unamendable motion may in fact be amendable under certain circumstances. Presumably if it is written in green ink and submitted by carrier pigeon in the dead of night. Or something.

Lol. Seems about where we are.

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful Remainers who criticise Leavers for having such a visceral dislike of the EU might want to ask themselves just why those feelings are so strongly held.

The level of hatred is such that a psychiatrist would be of more assistance.

Until Leavers acknowledge the race-baiting campaign they fell in behind in order to pursue that visceral hatred, there is going to be no reconciliation.

You’ve described yourself as the most eurosceptic in your peer group before. You’ve also said you regularly defend Leave (as a concept) to your friends in social situations. You’ve also said there were “other Leaves” you would have considered voting for.

What were they? And why?

That requires more time to answer than I immediately have available. I will try to come back to this when I have some time to spare.

Stark_Dawning said:

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful Remainers who criticise Leavers for having such a visceral dislike of the EU might want to ask themselves just why those feelings are so strongly held.

That requires ditching a few of the dog-ate-my-homework excuses (like blaming Murdoch, or the Daily Mail) and asking if the EU’s behaviour over the last 25 years with its total tin-ear about how strongly people feel about their national identity, and the importance of a strong democratic mandate to do anything to modify or overturn that, might have something to do with it.

Until then, and until both sides recognise that the ultra-federalists and European nationalists on one sides, and British nationalists and the purists of sovereignists on the other, are both pursuing ideologies and largely feed off each other, we won’t get very far in achieving any sort of reconciliation.

This shouldn’t be hard to do. A few of them even seriously considered voting Leave before the vote. But are now, bizarrely, uninterested in doing so and would prefer to point out that every Leave voter has the Mark of Cain upon them.

Nah, the EU's fine. Of course, there are a few glitches (I agree with Richard Tyndall about fire-extinguisher colours), but on the whole it's been beneficial. Why wreck it?

That’s the conclusion you’ve reached, and fair enough: I respect that.

But, rather than being dismissive toward those who think differently, it might be worth asking yourself why a majority of the electorate of the EU’s 2nd or 3rd largest member voted for the nuclear option after 40 years. And why there was such a groundswell of support for such a referendum in the first place that it became politically unsustainable not to offer one.

Why did they feel that way? How did so many people who used to be pro the single market and the EEC (including Sean Fear and myself) move to wanting withdrawal? What caused us to change our mind? Why did we lose all confidence in the EU to listen and reform?

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful Remainers who criticise Leavers for having such a visceral dislike of the EU might want to ask themselves just why those feelings are so strongly held.

The level of hatred is such that a psychiatrist would be of more assistance.

Until Leavers acknowledge the race-baiting campaign they fell in behind in order to pursue that visceral hatred, there is going to be no reconciliation.

You’ve described yourself as the most eurosceptic in your peer group before. You’ve also said you regularly defend Leave (as a concept) to your friends in social situations. You’ve also said there were “other Leaves” you would have considered voting for.

What were they? And why?

That requires more time to answer than I immediately have available. I will try to come back to this when I have some time to spare.

That’s kind of you. I will very much look forward to your response, and I mean that sincerely.

NickPalmer said:

Casino_Royale said:

MikeL said:

Per BBC: Conor McGinn tweet referring to "several very sick Labour MPs" being forced to come in to vote.

I thought MPs were generally a pretty healthy bunch - are several Lab MPs very sick?

And just how come the Con Maj was so high? Who were all the opposition abstentions / absences?

This was par for the course in several close votes during the Labour minority phase in the late 70s.

One (Naz Shah) is hospitalised for severe back pain, don't know of others who are sick though may be. Two others (Lab,LibDem) are heavily pregnant (one is overdue). 4 Labour MPs voted with the Government (lower than expected - Skinner martialled the left to vote for the amendment).

Yes. Pairing broke down in the 1970s too and there was one MP who was quite literally at deaths door being wheeled in.

Very close votes on issues that could cause the downfall of the Government get like this, unfortunately.

murali_s said:

MarkHopkins said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

So in your world, the Good People of Remain didn't lose the referendum, it was just that the Bad Racists of Leave who won it. Right. Ok.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head (even though your sense of irony is misplaced).

The Leave campaign consisted of an unholy alliance of xenophobes, bigots, racists, thickos, ignorant folk and little Englanders. sad times.

Is there a word for a multiple tautology?

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful Remainers who criticise Leavers for having such a visceral dislike of the EU might want to ask themselves just why those feelings are so strongly held.

The level of hatred is such that a psychiatrist would be of more assistance.

Until Leavers acknowledge the race-baiting campaign they fell in behind in order to pursue that visceral hatred, there is going to be no reconciliation.

From someone who pretends he wants people to acknowledge things, or repudiate parts of a campaign (even if they did at the time), but if they do that ignores it or says it doesn't matter after all . Thats totally reasonable.

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful Remainers who criticise Leavers for having such a visceral dislike of the EU might want to ask themselves just why those feelings are so strongly held.

The level of hatred is such that a psychiatrist would be of more assistance.

Until Leavers acknowledge the race-baiting campaign they fell in behind in order to pursue that visceral hatred, there is going to be no reconciliation.

From someone who pretends he wants people to acknowledge things, or repudiate parts of a campaign (even if they did at the time), but if they do that ignores it or says it doesn't matter after all . Thats totally reasonable.

Alastair with his obsessive compulsive behaviour strikes me as one of those most in need of psychiatric help on here.

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