politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Losing today’s Brexit vote could prove fatal for Mrs. May’s pr

Elliot said:

I too am moving to the country. It's interesting how many people try to escape over congested cramped London once they can afford to, isn't it?

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

I think the EU might be better disposed to us if a) we knew what we wanted and presented it to them, on the assumption that we are also aware of the rules of the EU as they stand; and b) if we didn't call people traitors who dissent from today's particular government line (whatever that happens to be day in day out).

I don't mean you, I mean our national media and senior politicians. As has been pointed out, the EU can use social and traditional media and when the most popular news website on the planet uses such terminology it is entirely understandable that they are suitably on guard.

They are pushing their advantage as we are trying to push ours.

If the government was trying to push it's advantage it would start the process of locking EU nations and companies out of London's capital markets.

I'm not sure that's a very sensible idea. Ultimately, London is just one financial centre, and there are others - such as New York.

Also, the people that make up the capital markets in London are fundamentally mobile. There is massive factory, there are a bunch of people with phones and computers, who can get on planes and move elsewhere.

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

I think the EU might be better disposed to us if a) we knew what we wanted and presented it to them, on the assumption that we are also aware of the rules of the EU as they stand; and b) if we didn't call people traitors who dissent from today's particular government line (whatever that happens to be day in day out).

I don't mean you, I mean our national media and senior politicians. As has been pointed out, the EU can use social and traditional media and when the most popular news website on the planet uses such terminology it is entirely understandable that they are suitably on guard.

They are pushing their advantage as we are trying to push ours.

If the government was trying to push it's advantage it would start the process of locking EU nations and companies out of London's capital markets. Force them to try and raise their money in Frankfurt and try and get investors to buy bonds under the threat of the ECJ's "for the greater good" attitude. It would also be beginning to withdraw from EU security cooperation and putting up the gates.

The EU are definitely pushing what advantages they have, and I don't blame them for that. The government are not doing so, and there are remainers in there preventing it. We should be readying the national economy for no deal Brexit, the work hasn't been done because the two remainers in 10/11 are still deluding themselves that the EU is interested in being in a partnership with the UK.

Anazina said:

Sean_F said:

Elliot said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

raitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

t politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

I'm comfortable being criticised by a man who thinks that a man's racial history is a valid reason for questioning his integrity. Since I now live in the countryside, you can't even nail one basic fact to hang your insult on.

n.......

I too am moving to the country. It's interesting how many people try to escape over congested cramped London once they can afford to, isn't it?

There's nowhere worse than central London on a humid Summer's day. The Tube is like a furnace.

Then don't use the Tube in rush hour – walk or cycle like me. Weird how people conflate an entire city with its rapid transport system at a certain time or in a particular weather pattern. It's rather like saying, "I don't like Manchester. The Metrolink is unpleasant at 11pm on Friday nights."

JosiasJessop said:

Norm said:

JosiasJessop said:

Norm said:

JosiasJessop said:

Norm said:

Yup and it does seem some of the "misguided" rebels are every bit as weird as the more extreme Brexiteers. To add to the apologist Grieve we have Soubry who sees herself as a kind of latter day reverse Joan of Arc, Sandbach who is up for suing people having the temerity to email her about Brexit, the policy somersaulting flakey Woollaston and Heidi Allen who might as well sit on the opposition benches as she seems to oppose the gov't on almost everything. Pragmatic centre of the party Tories groan at both sides.

"... flakey Woollaston and Heidi Allen who might as well sit on the opposition benches as she seems to oppose the gov't on almost everything. "

Ahem:
"Heidi Allen is a Conservative MP, and on the vast majority of issues votes the same way as other Conservative MPs."
"Heidi Allen has hardly ever rebelled against their party in the current parliament."
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25348/heidi_allen/south_cambridgeshire

"Sarah Wollaston is a Conservative MP, and on the vast majority of issues votes the same way as other Conservative MPs."
"Sarah Wollaston has occasionally rebelled against their party in the current parliament."
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24761/sarah_wollaston/totnes

Don't let this one issue blind you. Both are loyal Conservatives; but they are also individuals and constituency MPs.

Opposing and rebelling are not quite the same thing especially bearing in mind the way the gov't and T May give way so easily to avoid defeats.

No, sorry, you are wrong: on the vast majority of issues those two you named are loyal Conservatives, balancing (as all MPs should do) what they feel is right for their conscience, their constituents, the party and the country.

You could argue they are mouthy gits, but then so are people like IDS (when not coughing), JRM and others. In fact, being mouthy is sometimes the best way of getting what you feel is best for their conscience, their constituents, their party and the country.

Look Heidi is attractive (if I'm allowed to say that) and bright but she opposed the UTC roll-out , the DUP confidence arrangement and pronounced TM would only survive 6 months in addition to her pro EU stance. I'm all for independently minded MPs but sometimes you have to rein that back for the greater good. It looks like the rebels have done just that today.

"I'm all for independently minded MPs "

Evidently you are not.

Anazina said:

Then don't use the Tube in rush hour – walk or cycle like me. Weird how people conflate an entire city with its rapid transport system at a certain time or in a particular weather pattern. It's rather like saying, "I don't like Manchester. The Metrolink is unpleasant at 11pm on Friday nights."

Then don't use the Tube in rush hour – walk or cycle like me. Weird how people conflate an entire city with its rapid transport system at a certain time or in a particular weather pattern. It's rather like saying, "I don't like Manchester. The Metrolink is unpleasant at 11pm on Friday nights."

Anazina said:

Cyclefree said:

Anazina said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

I’ve never quite understood if you think that having any concerns at all about immigration are ipso facto xenophobic. Or any concerns about FoM? Or whether it was just the way the concerns about Turkey and non-EU migration were expressed ie the infamous posters?

Ie do you think that there was a legitimate way in which immigration concerns could have been expressed but that this was not, very regrettably in your view, the choice made by the Leave campaign?

For the record I do not think that having concerns about the level or type of immigration or indeed the effects of FoM is ipso fact xenophobic or racist. But it is possible that such concerns may be animated by prejudice and my be expressed in a way which is harmful to a society.

Did you think the Leave campaign was xenophobic in tone or not?

I wrote a thread header on immigration during the campaign which sets out my thoughts. I did not pay any attention to the Leave campaign on this issue. I rather like FoM. I was away for the last week so have no memory of seeing the Farage poster at the time. I have since written a thread header expressing my view on that and, more importantly, the language used about EU citizens here since the vote. To say I have concerns would be accurate.

I do understand why some people do worry about immigration and think one of the biggest policy mistakes all governments have made in recent decades is not to address this topic sensibly. This mistake is not limited to the British government, as a look across the Channel will show you. If it is not addressed properly, we end up with leaders justifying separating children from their mothers, as in the US, which is horrible.

You are equivocating. I'm asking you whether you thought the campaign was xenophobic. That you weren't aware of the content of the campaign bears no scrutiny whatsoever.

No I’m not. I’ve set out my thoughts in detail. If you don’t want to read them fair enough.

JosiasJessop said:

Anazina said:

Then don't use the Tube in rush hour – walk or cycle like me. Weird how people conflate an entire city with its rapid transport system at a certain time or in a particular weather pattern. It's rather like saying, "I don't like Manchester. The Metrolink is unpleasant at 11pm on Friday nights."

Many moon ago, we had an engineer visit us from China. He had travelled extensively over the Far East, but had never been to Europe or the US. On his first weekend, a friend took him down to see the sights of London. Despite living in Hong Kong, he was raving about the brilliance of the Tube and the bus network, and thought it was better than anything he had seen in China, Japan or elsewhere in that region.

His comments were a bit of an eye-opener; I think familiarity can breed contempt.

(I'm not saying that those countries don't have better systems in part; just that the system as a whole in London works rather well).

RobD said:

anothernick said:

Main takeaways from today's shenanigans

A If May was sure of winning she would have pushed it to a vote. She wasn't sure so she bought Grieve off - again.

B The ERG is still driving the policy agenda. They want a no deal Brexit, and that is still very much on the table after today. May has foregone another opportunity to allow the HoC to articulate the views of the majority of MPs who favour a softer line.

C The absurdity of the debate about an amendment to a motion that might allow a possible future motion to be amended is symptomatic of how Brexit has made Westminster completely dysfunctional. The country faces the biggest crisis in the lifetime of anyone born after the Second World War and politicians can only debate it in terms of arcane procedural devices which do not do justice to the colossal issues at stake and are completely baffling to most people.

D The government is unable to lead, it remains riven and personal animosities are worse than ever. May is the weakest PM for many generations and she is viewed with distrust and contempt on all sides, her own colleagues included. It becomes harder by the day to see how it can reach an acceptable withdrawal deal.

What was the compromise this time around?

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

Alastair - you do persist with this argument but just as many were misled by the remain scare stories.

Time we all moved on

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

anothernick said:

RobD said:

anothernick said:

Main takeaways from today's shenanigans

A If May was sure of winning she would have pushed it to a vote. She wasn't sure so she bought Grieve off - again.

B The ERG is still driving the policy agenda. They want a no deal Brexit, and that is still very much on the table after today. May has foregone another opportunity to allow the HoC to articulate the views of the majority of MPs who favour a softer line.

C The absurdity of the debate about an amendment to a motion that might allow a possible future motion to be amended is symptomatic of how Brexit has made Westminster completely dysfunctional. The country faces the biggest crisis in the lifetime of anyone born after the Second World War and politicians can only debate it in terms of arcane procedural devices which do not do justice to the colossal issues at stake and are completely baffling to most people.

D The government is unable to lead, it remains riven and personal animosities are worse than ever. May is the weakest PM for many generations and she is viewed with distrust and contempt on all sides, her own colleagues included. It becomes harder by the day to see how it can reach an acceptable withdrawal deal.

What was the compromise this time around?

I believe it was an amendment to make it clear that a future unamendable motion may in fact be amendable under certain circumstances. Presumably if it is written in green ink and submitted by carrier pigeon in the dead of night. Or something.

Elliot said:

Cycle through traffic with London's pollution levels? That can't be good for your health. Then you have the terrible London drivers cutting you up or turning without looking.

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

I think the EU might be better disposed to us if a) we knew what we wanted and presented it to them, on the assumption that we are also aware of the rules of the EU as they stand; and b) if we didn't call people traitors who dissent from today's particular government line (whatever that happens to be day in day out).

I don't mean you, I mean our national media and senior politicians. As has been pointed out, the EU can use social and traditional media and when the most popular news website on the planet uses such terminology it is entirely understandable that they are suitably on guard.

They are pushing their advantage as we are trying to push ours.

If the government was trying to push it's advantage it would start the process of locking EU nations and companies out of London's capital markets. Force them to try and raise their money in Frankfurt and try and get investors to buy bonds under the threat of the ECJ's "for the greater good" attitude. It would also be beginning to withdraw from EU security cooperation and putting up the gates.

The EU are definitely pushing what advantages they have, and I don't blame them for that. The government are not doing so, and there are remainers in there preventing it. We should be readying the national economy for no deal Brexit, the work hasn't been done because the two remainers in 10/11 are still deluding themselves that the EU is interested in being in a partnership with the UK.

No that is not sensible negotiating. Negotiating is a process of stating clear objectives and then working towards an acceptable solution that both sides find beneficial or least harmful.

"locking EU nations and companies out of" this, that or the other is simply not a grown up mode of behaviour.

At least Theresa May understands this. As do you, under different circumstances (ie less full of beer).

Your premise relies on both parties acting in the same manner, the EU have consistently and clearly shown they are not interested in a partnership, they want the UK to be subservient. We must act accordingly.

williamglenn said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

I think the EU might be better disposed to us if a) we knew what we wanted and presented it to them, on the assumption that we are also aware of the rules of the EU as they stand; and b) if we didn't call people traitors who dissent from today's particular government line (whatever that happens to be day in day out).

I don't mean you, I mean our national media and senior politicians. As has been pointed out, the EU can use social and traditional media and when the most popular news website on the planet uses such terminology it is entirely understandable that they are suitably on guard.

They are pushing their advantage as we are trying to push ours.

If the government was trying to push it's advantage it would start the process of locking EU nations and companies out of London's capital markets. Force them to try and raise their money in Frankfurt and try and get investors to buy bonds under the threat of the ECJ's "for the greater good" attitude. It would also be beginning to withdraw from EU security cooperation and putting up the gates.

The EU are definitely pushing what advantages they have, and I don't blame them for that. The government are not doing so, and there are remainers in there preventing it. We should be readying the national economy for no deal Brexit, the work hasn't been done because the two remainers in 10/11 are still deluding themselves that the EU is interested in being in a partnership with the UK.

No that is not sensible negotiating. Negotiating is a process of stating clear objectives and then working towards an acceptable solution that both sides find beneficial or least harmful.

"locking EU nations and companies out of" this, that or the other is simply not a grown up mode of behaviour.

At least Theresa May understands this. As do you, under different circumstances (ie less full of beer).

Your premise relies on both parties acting in the same manner, the EU have consistently and clearly shown they are not interested in a partnership, they want the UK to be subservient. We must act accordingly.

Brexit doesn’t elevate the UK to the status of the combined EU27.

Stark_Dawning said:

Face the facts: all the Leavers want is to see what a wrecked economy looks like. Let's just make Rees-Mogg PM and see how this plays out. I'm genuinely curious.

TOPPING said:

Elliot said:

Cycle through traffic with London's pollution levels? That can't be good for your health. Then you have the terrible London drivers cutting you up or turning without looking.

Blimey poor you I think you do need to move out.

But be careful - it's a jungle out there.

Stark_Dawning said:

Face the facts: all the Leavers want is to see what a wrecked economy looks like. Let's just make Rees-Mogg PM and see how this plays out. I'm genuinely curious.

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Ayes 303

Noes 319

Govt majority 16 and another key win for May

I'm pleased with my prediction.

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Ayes 303

Noes 319

Govt majority 16 and another key win for May

I'm pleased with my prediction.

Scott_P said:

DavidL said:

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

I have a theory (might make a good thread header) based on the Indyref and Brexit, that referendums are particularly toxic.

Normally politics takes place at one remove. You can only vote for 1 MP, so the actions of others are somewhat out of your control.

In referendums, the traitors (whichever side you are on) are your family, co-workers, neighbours and friends. you can actually look them in the eye, and hate them for their vote.

The rancour in Scotland continues unabated. Brexit is 2 years younger, and probably has at least a generation to run (whatever the outcome)

HYUFD said:

Lega Nord overtake Five Star and take the lead in new Italian poll


https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1009428304879915009

Pulpstar said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/parlyapp/status/1009454509884690434?s=21

How many rebels for Labour voting with the Gov't ?

anothernick said:

Fenster said:

It amuses me that we have a hung parliament and Labour - the main opposition party - have managed to have ZERO influence on the Brexit process.

LOL.

A very wise move. It is never a good idea to be caught on the scene of the crime. The Tories are not going to be able to avoid any of the responsibility for the Brexit balls-up.

Elliot said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

I'm comfortable being criticised by a man who thinks that a man's racial history is a valid reason for questioning his integrity. Since I now live in the countryside, you can't even nail one basic fact to hang your insult on.

I hope the move went well. I am planning a similar move in the course of the next year or so. When I think of all that is involved, I need a lie down.......

I too am moving to the country. It's interesting how many people try to escape over congested cramped London once they can afford to, isn't it?

Pulpstar said:

HYUFD said:

Lega Nord overtake Five Star and take the lead in new Italian poll


https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1009428304879915009

They have swallowed alot from Forza, I think there has been some M5S -> SPD movement too.

Cyclefree said:

I hope the move went well. I am planning a similar move in the course of the next year or so. When I think of all that is involved, I need a lie down.......

anothernick said:

Fenster said:

It amuses me that we have a hung parliament and Labour - the main opposition party - have managed to have ZERO influence on the Brexit process.

LOL.

A very wise move. It is never a good idea to be caught on the scene of the crime. The Tories are not going to be able to avoid any of the responsibility for the Brexit balls-up.

anothernick said:

Fenster said:

It amuses me that we have a hung parliament and Labour - the main opposition party - have managed to have ZERO influence on the Brexit process.

LOL.

A very wise move. It is never a good idea to be caught on the scene of the crime. The Tories are not going to be able to avoid any of the responsibility for the Brexit balls-up.

Sean_F said:

JosiasJessop said:

Anazina said:

Then don't use the Tube in rush hour – walk or cycle like me. Weird how people conflate an entire city with its rapid transport system at a certain time or in a particular weather pattern. It's rather like saying, "I don't like Manchester. The Metrolink is unpleasant at 11pm on Friday nights."

Many moon ago, we had an engineer visit us from China. He had travelled extensively over the Far East, but had never been to Europe or the US. On his first weekend, a friend took him down to see the sights of London. Despite living in Hong Kong, he was raving about the brilliance of the Tube and the bus network, and thought it was better than anything he had seen in China, Japan or elsewhere in that region.

His comments were a bit of an eye-opener; I think familiarity can breed contempt.

(I'm not saying that those countries don't have better systems in part; just that the system as a whole in London works rather well).

London Transport is vastly better now, than when I was a child. The Tube is excellent, in terms of speed and reliability. Just horribly uncomfortable in weather like this.

CD13 said:

Does this vote mean that Brexit is now assured?

tpfkar said:

CD13 said:

The basic problem is this …

The country voted to leave the EU. But a majority of MPs are Remainers. Some of these MPs are actively working to prevent Brexit, even though a large majority of them voted for the referendum. However, they didn't like the decision. (A few have short-term memory problems. A peoples' vote? We had a referendum less than two years ago).

For some other Remainer MPs, there needs to be a fig leaf to cover their embarrassment, and to allow either the MPs to overrule the referendum result or as an excuse to run another referendum and keep doing it until they get another result. Without that fig leaf, they fear a thumping at the next GE. so they want to spread the blame. "It wasn't me, it was Parliament."

Childish manoeuvres fool no one.

What solution to the Northern Ireland border did the country vote for?

The referendum vote was a vote *against* our membership - but there were and are 100 interpretations of what Leave might mean.

The idea that the will of the people was clear is a joke when you consider that 2 years on, the cabinet are unable to even agree their negotiating position on customs.

It's public record that a majority of MPs backed remain - but there's a clear majority for some form of Brexit now. The problem is that there seems to be no majority for any specific proposition with its compromises and flaws, and with nothing committed to before the refendum, no real claim of any specific mandate beyond the act of leaving.

Easy with hindsight, but why oh why didn't Cameron force the leavers to prepare a full white paper (the Scottish independence version was 600 pages I think) with a fully costed, implementable position laid out. Then have the referendum on that. Having to agree a customs and border position in advance would have exploded the Leave coalition, and done more than project fear ever achieved in explaining the drawbacks and difficulties.

P.S. I'm not persuaded the EU care about anything around meaningful votes. The substance of the deal is all that really matters, totally off the agenda in the Commons today.

anothernick said:

Indeed. It is an excellent system. One of the best in the world. Streets ahead of the rest of the UKs rail and transport systems. This is very hard to understand since it is a nationalised industry and we are forever being told on here that nationalised industries are inherently inefficient and wasteful.

Sean_F said:

bigjohnowls said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Ayes 303

Noes 319

Govt majority 16 and another key win for May

I'm pleased with my prediction.

Indeed you clearly factored in Grieve and Morgan would vote with the Government.

TBF I am pleased as a Leaver the Government won.


State of the Tory rebels though.

I expected Grieve to vote for his amendment. Working back from last week's vote, I added the vote of the new MP to those supporting the amendment, assumed that 5 Labour MP's plus Kelvin Hopkins would vote with the government, and expected between seven and ten Conservative rebels. `

williamglenn said:

Fenster said:

It amuses me that we have a hung parliament and Labour - the main opposition party - have managed to have ZERO influence on the Brexit process.

LOL.

That’s about as much influence as David Davis.

Cyclefree said:

HYUFD said:

CD13 said:

Does this vote mean that Brexit is now assured?

Pretty much, the Commons has now voted for every aspect of May's Brexit plans

But all of this means nothing if she cannot get agreement with the EU.

David_Evershed said:

BBC reports

"MPs backed Theresa May over what would happen in the event of there being no deal after key Tory rebels backed down.

It came after ministers agreed the Speaker would be able to decide if MPs had the power to amend a motion on what to do if there is no agreement the EU."

So the Gov't places power in the hands of the Speaker. Is that a good idea?

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1009462594124550145

Cyclefree said:

Fenster said:

anothernick said:

Fenster said:

It amuses me that we have a hung parliament and Labour - the main opposition party - have managed to have ZERO influence on the Brexit process.

LOL.

A very wise move. It is never a good idea to be caught on the scene of the crime. The Tories are not going to be able to avoid any of the responsibility for the Brexit balls-up.

anothernick said:

Fenster said:

It amuses me that we have a hung parliament and Labour - the main opposition party - have managed to have ZERO influence on the Brexit process.

LOL.

A very wise move. It is never a good idea to be caught on the scene of the crime. The Tories are not going to be able to avoid any of the responsibility for the Brexit balls-up.

Still amusing. It felt like the Blair years would last forever. He, Mandelson, Campbell et al invested their whole political careers eulogising about the greatness of the EU (and stealthily handed over as much power to it as they could) but Corbyn, merely by sitting on his arse and not giving a monkey's, has pissed all of their doings up against the wall.

A bit like how Trump hates anything Obama-associated, it appears Corbyn loves the opportunity to kill any New Labour associations.

The government made a huge mistake in not using Mandelson to help them. A former EU trade commissioner, his knowledge would have been invaluable in helping the government come up with some workable plans. Instead we have that preening twit, Fox.