politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Losing today’s Brexit vote could prove fatal for Mrs. May’s pr

Nigelb said:

Cyclefree said:

Nigelb said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

Not for the first time, I am in absolute agreement with your eminent reason.

If only you could overcome your xocolatophobia...

I have no phobia about chocolate. Love the good stuff. Just like eating - rather than drinking - it.

But I have now given up coffee. So perhaps you could see your way to forgiving me .......

I hereby acknowledge you as the nonpareil of PB.

La Belle Dame Vous Remercie

(I suppose once cannabis is decriminalised we will have people sprinkling THAT on their coffee...... )

With the end of that match, I really should get back to work.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Cyclefree said:

Nigelb said:

Cyclefree said:

TOPPING said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Elliot said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Elliot said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Elliot said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Elliot said:

tpfkar said:

No surprise when some of them are part of the French republican peerage.

I bet you got your knickers in a twist when Lord Sugar disgracefully mentioned Gisela Stuart's background in the run up to the referendum?

Aren't you part Iranian? Are we sure your support for Leave is to ensure the little great Satan is divided by Brexit.

I'm British. My father is Iranian. I was born and brought up here. I wasn't educated by the Iranian government despite access to UK schools, I haven't taken any honours from the Iranian government and I'm not the president of any pro-Iranian organisations.

Other than that, good point.

So you're doing the Ayatollah's work to divide the West.

Noted.

So you're a racist that judges people on their genetics rather than their actions.

Noted.

I'm mocking you in the same manner that you condemn Dominic Grieve.

Light bends around you.

Dominic Grieve being president of the Anglo-French society and taking the Legion d'Honeur is his ethnic background? Whatever you say.

Grieve's mother is French.

Another British politician with a foreign born mother was awarded Légion d'Honneur, but I guess you'll be condemning Sir Winston Churchill too, after all he was in favour of a political union with France.

Priti Patel’s fan club won’t tolerate anyone with foreign parents.
https://twitter.com/pritipatel4pm/status/1008695196970823681?s=21

This message is supported and endorsed by @Elliot.

Unbelievable. On her own basis, Priti Patel should be described as a Ugandan. What is wrong with these people?

Dominic Grieve is a British as Mr. Punch - to whom he bears a passing resemblance...

I could not care less who his parents are or where he was educated. Unlike Ms Patel he understands the importance of not lying, which is rather more important than his mother’s nationality. Priti Patel should be ashamed of that tweet.

As has already been mentioned I am pretty sure that is not Patel's twitter feed. Some deluded supporter I suspect.

Are any of her supporters luded?

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

I'm, usually, trolling/goading the ardent remainers on PB.

I said before I really do believe that Grieve is a traitor, however I think the rest of them are just misguided. It's not his background or his mum's citizenship (which I didn't know about until someone here pointed it out) but his actions in Parliament. He has systematically undermined the British negotiating position while strengthening our opponent's. For that he has crossed the line. You may not believe in leaving, you may not agree with it, however, everyone in this country should be agreed that the UK needs to negotiate from a position of strength, Grieve has proven with his actions time and again he doesn't believe that. The logical conclusion is that he serves another master.

Yup and it does seem some of the "misguided" rebels are every bit as weird as the more extreme Brexiteers. To add to the apologist Grieve we have Soubry who sees herself as a kind of latter day reverse Joan of Arc, Sandbach who is up for suing people having the temerity to email her about Brexit, the policy somersaulting flakey Woollaston and Heidi Allen who might as well sit on the opposition benches as she seems to oppose the gov't on almost everything. Pragmatic centre of the party Tories groan at both sides.

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

Alastair - you do persist with this argument but just as many were misled by the remain scare stories.

Time we all moved on

Sean_F said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

Usually, I'd agree, but Grieve really is a liar, humbug, loathsome spotted reptile, and self-confessed chicken-strangler.

https://youtu.be/-B0dqvXyx84?t=37

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

I'm, usually, trolling/goading the ardent remainers on PB.

I said before I really do believe that Grieve is a traitor, however I think the rest of them are just misguided. It's not his background or his mum's citizenship (which I didn't know about until someone here pointed it out) but his actions in Parliament. He has systematically undermined the British negotiating position while strengthening our opponent's. For that he has crossed the line. You may not believe in leaving, you may not agree with it, however, everyone in this country should be agreed that the UK needs to negotiate from a position of strength, Grieve has proven with his actions time and again he doesn't believe that. The logical conclusion is that he serves another master.

No. Your conclusion simply does not follow from your preceding statements. The reason the government’s position is weaker than it might have been is because of the actions of the government over the last two years. Grieve has been active relatively recently. His assessment may be wrong. But this does not mean that he is serving a different master. It simply means that he has a different view to yours as to what is in his country’s national interest, a country he has served in a distinguished capacity for a number of years.

There is absolutely no basis for accusing him of acting in the interests of a foreign government or entity. If you are going to start throwing accusations like that around you might do better to look at the antics of Mr Banks and Mr Farage.

And I am not an ardent Remainer. I have severely criticised the EU over the years. But I am becoming ashamed of the infantile incompetence of my country’s government and the behaviour of some of its supporters. Not all Brexiteers are like this but enough of them are to make me seriously wonder what sort of country we are going to end up being if they remain in charge.

As for trolling, leave this to @SeanT. He does it best.

Grieve in HOC accepting government position much to murmurings from labour

TM is a remarkable survivor

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

Alastair - you do persist with this argument but just as many were misled by the remain scare stories.

Time we all moved on

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

Sorry Alastair but you are going to be in turmoil indefinitely

Delete "you are" and replace with "Britain is". The way in which the referendum vote was won was the most important and most disastrous thing to hit this country in my lifetime.

Scott_P said:

DavidL said:

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

The rancour in Scotland continues unabated. Brexit is 2 years younger, and probably has at least a generation to run (whatever the outcome)

So, about 2 years....

JosiasJessop said:

Norm said:

Yup and it does seem some of the "misguided" rebels are every bit as weird as the more extreme Brexiteers. To add to the apologist Grieve we have Soubry who sees herself as a kind of latter day reverse Joan of Arc, Sandbach who is up for suing people having the temerity to email her about Brexit, the policy somersaulting flakey Woollaston and Heidi Allen who might as well sit on the opposition benches as she seems to oppose the gov't on almost everything. Pragmatic centre of the party Tories groan at both sides.

"... flakey Woollaston and Heidi Allen who might as well sit on the opposition benches as she seems to oppose the gov't on almost everything. "

Ahem:
"Heidi Allen is a Conservative MP, and on the vast majority of issues votes the same way as other Conservative MPs."
"Heidi Allen has hardly ever rebelled against their party in the current parliament."
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25348/heidi_allen/south_cambridgeshire

"Sarah Wollaston is a Conservative MP, and on the vast majority of issues votes the same way as other Conservative MPs."
"Sarah Wollaston has occasionally rebelled against their party in the current parliament."
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24761/sarah_wollaston/totnes

Don't let this one issue blind you. Both are loyal Conservatives; but they are also individuals and constituency MPs.

Yeah, isn't one of the features of the Tory party that it is a broad church? The fact they are independently minded is a good thing, even if it is bloody annoying sometimes

Good afternoon, everyone.

It's certainly a momentous week. F1 returns to France after over a decade away (I think), and Red Bull have announced they're switching to Honda engines next year. Not to mention (although I am) Alonso's Le Mans win, alongside Buemi and Nakajima.

Big win for May. I've had a small top up laying 2018 exit date.

https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132897849

Always knew Grieve was a jolly good egg.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Grieve in HOC accepting government position much to murmurings from labour

TM is a remarkable survivor

A bloody difficult woman.

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1009440473914765314?s=20

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1009440733021995010?s=20

RobD said:

murali_s said:

MarkHopkins said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

So in your world, the Good People of Remain didn't lose the referendum, it was just that the Bad Racists of Leave who won it. Right. Ok.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head (even though your sense of irony is misplaced).

The Leave campaign consisted of an unholy alliance of xenophobes, bigots, racists, thickos, ignorant folk and little Englanders. Thanks to that unholy alliance, this country is staring down the barrel. Sad, sad times.

And yet they still won.

It was because of this that they won. Playing to people's worst instincts is a powerful strategy.

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Elliot said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Elliot said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Elliot said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Elliot said:

tpfkar said:

Looking at the way the Government are playing silly buggers with the shared amendment, refusing to pair, and that written minsterial statement, I really hope they lose by exactly 1 vote.

That way, it's all blamed on them ducking the vote from the previous week, when the Lewisham East MP wasn't there. They've trampled so much on parliamentary procedures and their own promises, there deserves to be some real comeback.

The trampling on parliamentary procedures entails the rebels arguing parliament should usurp executive powers from the executive and the Lords overruling the Commons on a manifesto commitment. These are people more loyal to the EU than the British constitution.

No surprise when some of them are part of the French republican peerage.

I bet you got your knickers in a twist when Lord Sugar disgracefully mentioned Gisela Stuart's background in the run up to the referendum?

Aren't you part Iranian? Are we sure your support for Leave is to ensure the little great Satan is divided by Brexit.

I'm British. My father is Iranian. I was born and brought up here. I wasn't educated by the Iranian government despite access to UK schools, I haven't taken any honours from the Iranian government and I'm not the president of any pro-Iranian organisations.

Other than that, good point.

So you're doing the Ayatollah's work to divide the West.

Noted.

So you're a racist that judges people on their genetics rather than their actions.

Noted.

I'm mocking you in the same manner that you condemn Dominic Grieve.

Light bends around you.

Dominic Grieve being president of the Anglo-French society and taking the Legion d'Honeur is his ethnic background? Whatever you say.

Grieve's mother is French.

Another British politician with a foreign born mother was awarded Légion d'Honneur, but I guess you'll be condemning Sir Winston Churchill too, after all he was in favour of a political union with France.

Priti Patel’s fan club won’t tolerate anyone with foreign parents.
https://twitter.com/pritipatel4pm/status/1008695196970823681?s=21

It was pretty staggering how gullible so many people proved to be regarding this tweet. I sometimes think social media means people are desperate to find outrage and in doing so fail to verify and scrutinise the source of their anger.

Amazed Grieve gave in like that. What a huge win for the government this could be.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Anazina said:

Are any of her supporters luded?

Took me a moment to get that

Similar to the one I always ask about which is whether one can be bauched.

I have fleeting moments of gruntlement, usually on a Saturday, frequently within the walls of a good pub

Sean_F said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.
Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....
The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view from one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

Usually, I'd agree, but Grieve really is a liar, humbug, loathsome spotted reptile, and self-confessed chicken-strangler.

And a Tory, Mr F. You forgot to mention that.

Do you think he was put up to the whole thing by the Tory whips, in order to raise hopes and then dash them to the ground? A the time of the Referendum, Dr Woolaston did much the same thing.

Theresa's played a blinder. The Brexit we're going to go for will be entirely what she has decided upon. Whether on not the EU agrees is, of course, an entirely different matter, but Theresa's as safe as houses for now.

murali_s said:

MarkHopkins said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

So in your world, the Good People of Remain didn't lose the referendum, it was just that the Bad Racists of Leave who won it. Right. Ok.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head (even though your sense of irony is misplaced).

The Leave campaign consisted of an unholy alliance of xenophobes, bigots, racists, thickos, ignorant folk and little Englanders. Thanks to that unholy alliance, this country is staring down the barrel. Sad, sad times.

"I was beaten by a bus"; "I was outwitted by thickos" " in other words.

Elliot said:

murali_s said:

RobD said:

murali_s said:

MarkHopkins said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

So in your world, the Good People of Remain didn't lose the referendum, it was just that the Bad Racists of Leave who won it. Right. Ok.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head (even though your sense of irony is misplaced).

The Leave campaign consisted of an unholy alliance of xenophobes, bigots, racists, thickos, ignorant folk and little Englanders. Thanks to that unholy alliance, this country is staring down the barrel. Sad, sad times.

And yet they still won.

The fact that thickos and xenophobes are in the majority is indeed very sad. Lying disingenuous politicians like Boris Johnson are the architects of this calamity.

It was a victory for voting and self-determination over bitter snobs that despise Britain and democracy.

The comedy just keeps on coming.

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

I'm comfortable being criticised by a man who thinks that a man's racial history is a valid reason for questioning his integrity. Since I now live in the countryside, you can't even nail one basic fact to hang your insult on.

Just heard that Grieve is proposing an amendment he doesn't support.

This a week after a minister resigned on a matter of principle, then abstained.

Is the Parliamentary Conservative Party becoming some sort of postmodern performance art?

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

I’ve never quite understood if you think that having any concerns at all about immigration are ipso facto xenophobic. Or any concerns about FoM? Or whether it was just the way the concerns about Turkey and non-EU migration were expressed ie the infamous posters?

Ie do you think that there was a legitimate way in which immigration concerns could have been expressed but that this was not, very regrettably in your view, the choice made by the Leave campaign?

For the record I do not think that having concerns about the level or type of immigration or indeed the effects of FoM is ipso facto xenophobic or racist. But it is possible that such concerns may be animated by prejudice and may be expressed in a way which is harmful to a society.

Stark_Dawning said:

Theresa's played a blinder. The Brexit we're going to go for will be entirely what she has decided upon. Whether on not the EU agrees is, of course, an entirely different matter, but Theresa's as safe as houses for now.

Yes, God only knows what Brexit we'll get but Javid's team will be parking the bus till the 2019 conference now when May's Brexit deal starts to unravel to topple May.

CarlottaVance said:

murali_s said:

MarkHopkins said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

So in your world, the Good People of Remain didn't lose the referendum, it was just that the Bad Racists of Leave who won it. Right. Ok.

The Leave campaign consisted of an unholy alliance of xenophobes, bigots, racists, thickos, ignorant folk and little Englanders. Thanks to that unholy alliance, this country is staring down the barrel. Sad, sad times.

And yet you lost to them.

What does that make you?

Honourable.

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

I’ve never quite understood if you think that having any concerns at all about immigration are ipso facto xenophobic. Or any concerns about FoM? Or whether it was just the way the concerns about Turkey and non-EU migration were expressed ie the infamous posters?

Ie do you think that there was a legitimate way in which immigration concerns could have been expressed but that this was not, very regrettably in your view, the choice made by the Leave campaign?

For the record I do not think that having concerns about the level or type of immigration or indeed the effects of FoM is ipso fact xenophobic or racist. But it is possible that such concerns may be animated by prejudice and my be expressed in a way which is harmful to a society.

Did you think the Leave campaign was xenophobic in tone or not?

CarlottaVance said:

murali_s said:

MarkHopkins said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

So in your world, the Good People of Remain didn't lose the referendum, it was just that the Bad Racists of Leave who won it. Right. Ok.

The Leave campaign consisted of an unholy alliance of xenophobes, bigots, racists, thickos, ignorant folk and little Englanders. Thanks to that unholy alliance, this country is staring down the barrel. Sad, sad times.

And yet you lost to them.

What does that make you?

It has to be stated for younger readers: Carlotta was the most vociferous Remainer on this site before the vote was in.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Anazina said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Antoinette Sandbach supports government - another rebel voting for TM

I think your definition of rebel needs work.

I am sure it does and looking on the Guardian blog she is being ambiguous - so not sure of how she will vote

More Labourites rebelling against their front bench than Tories would be my guess now.

Anazina said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

Why are the PB Paleo Right so weirdly obsessed with London? It's utterly bizarre.

Just J I guess. What has become of the PB Right - it used to be a great source of betting information - now just a tribe of (ugly) certified morons.

murali_s said:

Anazina said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

Why are the PB Paleo Right so weirdly obsessed with London? It's utterly bizarre.

Just J I guess. What has become of the PB Right - it used to be a great source of betting information - now just a tribe of (ugly) certified morons.

You do absolutely no favours to yourself by calling half of PB ugly morons.

Stark_Dawning said:

CarlottaVance said:

murali_s said:

MarkHopkins said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

So in your world, the Good People of Remain didn't lose the referendum, it was just that the Bad Racists of Leave who won it. Right. Ok.

The Leave campaign consisted of an unholy alliance of xenophobes, bigots, racists, thickos, ignorant folk and little Englanders. Thanks to that unholy alliance, this country is staring down the barrel. Sad, sad times.

And yet you lost to them.

What does that make you?

It has to be stated for younger readers: Carlotta was the most vociferous Remainer on this site before the vote was in.

Incredibly hard to believe now. But reading her posts back makes for an incredible comparison.

williamglenn said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

Where do you live, Elliot?

Bedfordshire from next week!

Pulpstar said:

murali_s said:

Anazina said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

Why are the PB Paleo Right so weirdly obsessed with London? It's utterly bizarre.

Just J I guess. What has become of the PB Right - it used to be a great source of betting information - now just a tribe of (ugly) certified morons.

Lay 2018 at 2.98, it is too short: https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.132897849

Anyone have a link for Ladbrokes betting exchange? I heard that they had opened one; hopefully I can get there from my normal Ladbrokes a.c. Don't have a B'fair one.

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

tlg86 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

tlg86 said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/elliotttimes/status/1009410678451507201

https://twitter.com/jreynoldsMP/status/1009406188893679616

I thought Jezza had put a stop to pairing?

General pairing was off, but kept for those seriously ill/pregnant and ministers attending overseas meetings.

I see. Has that idiot from Sheffield Hallam been voting recently?

Don't think so.

It is just like having a member of Sinn Fein representing Sheffield Hallam.

I wonder if Shaffaq Mohammed might be the man to defeat him in 2022 ?

http://democracy.sheffield.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=181

The Lib Dems have already selected Laura Gordon.

AlastairMeeks said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

I'm comfortable being criticised by a man who thinks that a man's racial history is a valid reason for questioning his integrity. Since I now live in the countryside, you can't even nail one basic fact to hang your insult on.

Apparently you are another one who is thick enough to think going to a French school, presiding over a French society, taking an honour from the French government and working for French TV is "racial history".

GIN1138 said:

The Good Ship May sails on serenely...






Until next time.

Tomorrow then?

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

Alastair - you do persist with this argument but just as many were misled by the remain scare stories.

Time we all moved on

The country cannot move on. It is committed to an anti-immigration prospectus, because of the way the referendum was won. There is no positive prospectus for Leave, because Leavers fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.

Until this disaster is confronted, the process of clearing up the wreckage can't start.

What did you intend to happen when you posted this, Alistair?
If it was to cause unrest and argument, then fine, you've succeeded, but I do wonder why you think that's a worthwhile exercise of your time, my time, and everyone else's here.
If it was to convince people or change minds, it's an utter failure and was always going to be, wasn't it?

When you say "confront the disaster", what exactly do you expect people to do? Do you genuinely think (objectively and not an emotional reaction) you're going to get people kneeling down and saying, "Oh, I confess it, I'm scum and I may as well be a Nazi"? Because the impression you give is that such is what you want/expect to happen.

I'm autistic, so I have to put social interactions through a mental model to make sense, and there's no behavioural model where that's ever going to happen, yet it seems to be what you want to happen.

I get where your anger is coming from, but at the moment your contributions on this subject seem to be as conducive to genuine debate and discussion on the Brexit front as SeanT.

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

I’ve never quite understood if you think that having any concerns at all about immigration are ipso facto xenophobic. Or any concerns about FoM? Or whether it was just the way the concerns about Turkey and non-EU migration were expressed ie the infamous posters?

Ie do you think that there was a legitimate way in which immigration concerns could have been expressed but that this was not, very regrettably in your view, the choice made by the Leave campaign?

For the record I do not think that having concerns about the level or type of immigration or indeed the effects of FoM is ipso facto xenophobic or racist. But it is possible that such concerns may be animated by prejudice and may be expressed in a way which is harmful to a society.

To answer your questions in turn:

1) No I don't believe that having concerns about immigration are automatically xenophobic. They frequently are though.

2) Ditto freedom of movement. Not that most people understand what freedom of movement is, seeing it as interchangeable with immigration mostly.

3) Yes immigration concerns could in theory have been expressed legitimately. Looking at the calibre of those on the Leave side, however, the chances of that were remote in reality.

To answer an unasked question, I do not believe that all Leave voters are xenophobic. What emerged was a toxic mix of xenophobes and those who hated the EU so much that they were happy to race-bait (or acquiesce in whipping up xenophobia) in order to have a chance of getting over the line. The complete absence of positive reasons is why the process of leaving is going so badly.

But there we are.

JosiasJessop said:

Norm said:

JosiasJessop said:

Norm said:

Yup and it does seem some of the "misguided" rebels are every bit as weird as the more extreme Brexiteers. To add to the apologist Grieve we have Soubry who sees herself as a kind of latter day reverse Joan of Arc, Sandbach who is up for suing people having the temerity to email her about Brexit, the policy somersaulting flakey Woollaston and Heidi Allen who might as well sit on the opposition benches as she seems to oppose the gov't on almost everything. Pragmatic centre of the party Tories groan at both sides.

"... flakey Woollaston and Heidi Allen who might as well sit on the opposition benches as she seems to oppose the gov't on almost everything. "

Ahem:
"Heidi Allen is a Conservative MP, and on the vast majority of issues votes the same way as other Conservative MPs."
"Heidi Allen has hardly ever rebelled against their party in the current parliament."
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25348/heidi_allen/south_cambridgeshire

"Sarah Wollaston is a Conservative MP, and on the vast majority of issues votes the same way as other Conservative MPs."
"Sarah Wollaston has occasionally rebelled against their party in the current parliament."
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24761/sarah_wollaston/totnes

Don't let this one issue blind you. Both are loyal Conservatives; but they are also individuals and constituency MPs.

Opposing and rebelling are not quite the same thing especially bearing in mind the way the gov't and T May give way so easily to avoid defeats.

No, sorry, you are wrong: on the vast majority of issues those two you named are loyal Conservatives, balancing (as all MPs should do) what they feel is right for their conscience, their constituents, the party and the country.

You could argue they are mouthy gits, but then so are people like IDS (when not coughing), JRM and others. In fact, being mouthy is sometimes the best way of getting what you feel is best for their conscience, their constituents, their party and the country.

Look Heidi is attractive (if I'm allowed to say that) and bright but she opposed the UTC roll-out , the DUP confidence arrangement and pronounced TM would only survive 6 months in addition to her pro EU stance. I'm all for independently minded MPs but sometimes you have to rein that back for the greater good. It looks like the rebels have done just that today.

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most about the EU referendum has been the way otherwise apparently sensible people have lost the ability to understand the concept of the honest and legitimate disagreement. Taking a different view frome one’s own does not thereby mean that the person doing so is somehow evil. There are plenty on here on both sides who might like to reflect on that. And I apologise in advance if that makes me sound pompous. But some threads are well nigh unbearable with all the “traitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

I'm comfortable being criticised by a man who thinks that a man's racial history is a valid reason for questioning his integrity. Since I now live in the countryside, you can't even nail one basic fact to hang your insult on.

Apparently you are another one who is thick enough to think going to a French school, presiding over a French society, taking an honour from the French government and working for French TV is "racial history".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-E2H1ChJM

Anazina said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

I’ve never quite understood if you think that having any concerns at all about immigration are ipso facto xenophobic. Or any concerns about FoM? Or whether it was just the way the concerns about Turkey and non-EU migration were expressed ie the infamous posters?

Ie do you think that there was a legitimate way in which immigration concerns could have been expressed but that this was not, very regrettably in your view, the choice made by the Leave campaign?

For the record I do not think that having concerns about the level or type of immigration or indeed the effects of FoM is ipso fact xenophobic or racist. But it is possible that such concerns may be animated by prejudice and my be expressed in a way which is harmful to a society.

Did you think the Leave campaign was xenophobic in tone or not?

I wrote a thread header on immigration during the campaign which sets out my thoughts. I did not pay any attention to the Leave campaign on this issue. I rather like FoM. I was away for the last week so have no memory of seeing the Farage poster at the time. I have since written a thread header expressing my view on that and, more importantly, the language used about EU citizens here since the vote. To say I have concerns would be accurate.

I do understand why some people do worry about immigration and think one of the biggest policy mistakes all governments have made in recent decades is not to address this topic sensibly. This mistake is not limited to the British government, as a look across the Channel will show you. If it is not addressed properly, we end up with leaders justifying separating children from their mothers, as in the US, which is horrible.

Elliot said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

raitor”, “remoaner”, “xenophobe” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

I'm comfortable being criticised by a man who thinks that a man's racial history is a valid reason for questioning his integrity. Since I now live in the countryside, you can't even nail one basic fact to hang your insult on.

I hope the move went well. I am planning a similar move in the course of the next year or so. When I think of all that is involved, I need a lie down.......

I too am moving to the country. It's interesting how many people try to escape over congested cramped London once they can afford to, isn't it?

There's nowhere worse than central London on a humid Summer's day. The Tube is like a furnace.


Luton is about 3 degrees cooler on average, and I can afford a house with half an acre of garden, there, as opposed to a flat in London.

Norm said:

JosiasJessop said:

Norm said:

JosiasJessop said:

Norm said:

Yup and it does seem some of the "misguided" rebels are every bit as weird as the more extreme Brexiteers. To add to the apologist Grieve we have Soubry who sees herself as a kind of latter day reverse Joan of Arc, Sandbach who is up for suing people having the temerity to email her about Brexit, the policy somersaulting flakey Woollaston and Heidi Allen who might as well sit on the opposition benches as she seems to oppose the gov't on almost everything. Pragmatic centre of the party Tories groan at both sides.

"... flakey Woollaston and Heidi Allen who might as well sit on the opposition benches as she seems to oppose the gov't on almost everything. "

Ahem:
"Heidi Allen is a Conservative MP, and on the vast majority of issues votes the same way as other Conservative MPs."
"Heidi Allen has hardly ever rebelled against their party in the current parliament."
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25348/heidi_allen/south_cambridgeshire

"Sarah Wollaston is a Conservative MP, and on the vast majority of issues votes the same way as other Conservative MPs."
"Sarah Wollaston has occasionally rebelled against their party in the current parliament."
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24761/sarah_wollaston/totnes

Don't let this one issue blind you. Both are loyal Conservatives; but they are also individuals and constituency MPs.

Opposing and rebelling are not quite the same thing especially bearing in mind the way the gov't and T May give way so easily to avoid defeats.

No, sorry, you are wrong: on the vast majority of issues those two you named are loyal Conservatives, balancing (as all MPs should do) what they feel is right for their conscience, their constituents, the party and the country.

You could argue they are mouthy gits, but then so are people like IDS (when not coughing), JRM and others. In fact, being mouthy is sometimes the best way of getting what you feel is best for their conscience, their constituents, their party and the country.

Look Heidi is attractive (if I'm allowed to say that) and bright but she opposed the UTC roll-out , the DUP confidence arrangement and pronounced TM would only survive 6 months in addition to her pro EU stance. I'm all for independently minded MPs but sometimes you have to rein that back for the greater good. It looks like the rebels have done just that today.

"I'm all for independently minded MPs "

Evidently you are not.

Elliot said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Elliot said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

Half an hour in to PMQ's and still no questions about today's vote.

Theresa's won it hasn't she?

It certainly looks that way. In asking for the power to reverse the public vote, Grieve showed his true colours and his true agenda. He is a repulsive Brussels apologist who disgraces our party and our country.

I don’t like to get personal. But, really, Max: do grow up. Grieve is a distinguished thoughtful lawyer and Parliamentarian, who has been a loss to the Cabinet, and who is trying to do the best for his country as he sees it. He may be wrong. But he is not a repulsive apologist or traitor and he disgraces no-one. Your post, on the other hand.....

The single thing I hate most aboue” abuse.

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

You are just a bitter elitist who thinks his little cultural tribe is superior to others who live outside Zone 2 and is so blinded by his pretension he doesn't even realise Londoners are the unhappiest people in the country.

I'm comfortable being criticised by a man who thinks that a man's racial history is a valid reason for questioning his integrity. Since I now live in the countryside, you can't even nail one basic fact to hang your insult on.

I hope the move went well. I am planning a similar move in the course of the next year or so. When I think of all that is involved, I need a lie down.......

I too am moving to the country. It's interesting how many people try to escape over congested cramped London once they can afford to, isn't it?

"Once they can afford to"???

rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-61877683.html

vs

rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-71854229.html

Lordy I'm bored with this - every week we get yet another Leave figure of hate. Grieve is just the latest. Let's just go with 'Full English Brexit': WTO, no arrangements with continental Europe, chlorinated chicken and all the rest of it. Yes, it will all be shit other than for those Leavers who can afford to emigrate, but let's give ourselves some peace.

Cyclefree said:

Anazina said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

GIN1138 said:

+1. I get very tired of personal abuse on both sides on this debate. It really doesn't help.

And me

The single most important fact in British politics today is that the EU referendum was won with xenophobic lies. I'm not going to enter into some form of self-denying ordinance in pointing this out. It underpins most of current politics in one way or another. An extreme allergy to the x word is something that others are just going to have to get an epipen for.

I’ve never quite understood if you think that having any concerns at all about immigration are ipso facto xenophobic. Or any concerns about FoM? Or whether it was just the way the concerns about Turkey and non-EU migration were expressed ie the infamous posters?

Ie do you think that there was a legitimate way in which immigration concerns could have been expressed but that this was not, very regrettably in your view, the choice made by the Leave campaign?

For the record I do not think that having concerns about the level or type of immigration or indeed the effects of FoM is ipso fact xenophobic or racist. But it is possible that such concerns may be animated by prejudice and my be expressed in a way which is harmful to a society.

Did you think the Leave campaign was xenophobic in tone or not?

I wrote a thread header on immigration during the campaign which sets out my thoughts. I did not pay any attention to the Leave campaign on this issue. I rather like FoM. I was away for the last week so have no memory of seeing the Farage poster at the time. I have since written a thread header expressing my view on that and, more importantly, the language used about EU citizens here since the vote. To say I have concerns would be accurate.

I do understand why some people do worry about immigration and think one of the biggest policy mistakes all governments have made in recent decades is not to address this topic sensibly. This mistake is not limited to the British government, as a look across the Channel will show you. If it is not addressed properly, we end up with leaders justifying separating children from their mothers, as in the US, which is horrible.

You are equivocating. I'm asking you whether you thought the campaign was xenophobic. That you weren't aware of the content of the campaign bears no scrutiny whatsoever.