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They have no need to strong arm. For better or worse they have the legal and constitutional right to decide what that relationship should be as long as they are still the Government. Now I would very much like to see that changed but the Lords trying to force this as a partisan issue is not the way to do it and will be extremely damaging for Parliament.AlastairMeeks said:
The government is seeking to strong-arm its view of future relations between Britain and the rest of the EU for decades to come on a Parliament that it doesn’t control. It can expect pushback and it shouldn’t mewl when it gets it.Richard_Tyndall said:
As it currently stands (and I am sorry it is this way as I have said often before) negotiating treaties is part of the Royal Prerogative. If Parliament wises to change this it should introduce legislation to do so, not try to strong arm it on a case by case basis when they happen to disagree with something.AlastairMeeks said:
The Lords are proposing a change. The Commons has to consider it now. I strongly suspect this point would not have been reached if the government had not sought to ignore Parliament’s wishes repeatedly.Richard_Tyndall said:
The problem is that currently Parliament does not have the power to force the Government to negotiate in a particular way.AlastairMeeks said:The government has already signaled that it will ignore a vote in the Commons telling it to negotiate a customs union. In the face of such contempt for Parliament, is it surprising that the House of Lords sought a means of forcing the government to pay more attention?
Now personally I think they should have that power even though in this case it would result in a decision that would be disastrous for the country. But it should not be for the Lords to be making fundamental changes to the Constitution as it stands for partisan purposes.
The obvious way through is for the government to start taking more cognisance of a Parliament in which it does not command a majority.
In practice, a modus vivendi will be worked out. I doubt this clause will be enacted in anything like its current form.0 -
So we can 'stay in' then?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not without rewriting the treaties. Unlike the Single Market membership of the Customs Union is explicitly dependent on membership of the EU.rkrkrk said:
We can stay in the customs union if we and the EU agree to do so.Richard_Tyndall said:
We cannot 'stay in'. We can have a separate customs union with the EU as Turkey does but that is a really terrible idea.
It's possible that you're right, and that everyone else from the EU, the UK govt, the business community etc. etc. are all arguing about something totally pointless since it's impossible.
But it doesn't seem very likely to me.0 -
Yes, agreed. He's doing a remarkably bad job of answering the question "what are the Lib Dems for?".JosiasJessop said:What the Lib Dems need is to shout out their values and what the party can offer the country - and there is a saleable product there. Instead, they're navel-gazing on an area that won't change votes.
Cable is an absolute disaster.
A bad set of locals could be fatal for Cable. But I suspect they will be good enough for him to continue, but not enough to move the needle for the Lib Dems.0 -
In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.0 -
Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k0 -
No because if you look carefully they are all talking about being in 'a' customs union, not 'the' customs union. It is a difference we have been over many times before on here. Unfortunately 'a' customs union is a very bad thing if it is on the Turkish model as it is extremely one way with regard to third countries.rkrkrk said:
So we can 'stay in' then?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not without rewriting the treaties. Unlike the Single Market membership of the Customs Union is explicitly dependent on membership of the EU.rkrkrk said:
We can stay in the customs union if we and the EU agree to do so.Richard_Tyndall said:
We cannot 'stay in'. We can have a separate customs union with the EU as Turkey does but that is a really terrible idea.
It's possible that you're right, and that everyone else from the EU, the UK govt, the business community etc. etc. are all arguing about something totally pointless since it's impossible.
But it doesn't seem very likely to me.0 -
A point made in the article linked upthread.TOPPING said:
There is a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Its bosses have committed to Leave - you should just chillax. Let them get on with it and leave. Why so anxious? Yours should be the @isam school of discussion - who cares...we won, we're out, I'm off.
Brexiteers should be joyous, magnanimous, excited and friendly.
Instead they are nervous, vindictive, angry and shouty.
Why, when Brexit is going to be such a glorious success, I wonder...?0 -
Judging from the Local Elections and Cable the LDs are against building on the greenbelt, against Brexit, against potholes etc. As for what they are for? Beats me!El_Capitano said:
Yes, agreed. He's doing a remarkably bad job of answering the question "what are the Lib Dems for?".JosiasJessop said:What the Lib Dems need is to shout out their values and what the party can offer the country - and there is a saleable product there. Instead, they're navel-gazing on an area that won't change votes.
Cable is an absolute disaster.
A bad set of locals could be fatal for Cable. But I suspect they will be good enough for him to continue, but not enough to move the needle for the Lib Dems.0 -
F1: front and rear wing changes agreed for next year to try and aid overtaking. To be fair, Australia excepted, there's been a fair amount this year. Although Spain's next and it's very tricky there.
https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/9912188152991866880 -
Because we know that you and the elites you support will do everything in your power to prevent Brexit.Scott_P said:
A point made in the article linked upthread.TOPPING said:
There is a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Its bosses have committed to Leave - you should just chillax. Let them get on with it and leave. Why so anxious? Yours should be the @isam school of discussion - who cares...we won, we're out, I'm off.
Brexiteers should be joyous, magnanimous, excited and friendly.
Instead they are nervous, vindictive, angry and shouty.
Why, when Brexit is going to be such a glorious success, I wonder...?0 -
At present the LIb Dems seem to be about their politicians and members and councillors - who predominantly represent and choose to live in well off almost entirely white middle class areas (eg Twickenham - the least diverse seat in London) - that the majority of voters are bigots and racists.El_Capitano said:
Yes, agreed. He's doing a remarkably bad job of answering the question "what are the Lib Dems for?".JosiasJessop said:What the Lib Dems need is to shout out their values and what the party can offer the country - and there is a saleable product there. Instead, they're navel-gazing on an area that won't change votes.
Cable is an absolute disaster.
A bad set of locals could be fatal for Cable. But I suspect they will be good enough for him to continue, but not enough to move the needle for the Lib Dems.0 -
hahaha "the elites".Richard_Tyndall said:
Because we know that you and the elites you support will do everything in your power to prevent Brexit.Scott_P said:
A point made in the article linked upthread.TOPPING said:
There is a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Its bosses have committed to Leave - you should just chillax. Let them get on with it and leave. Why so anxious? Yours should be the @isam school of discussion - who cares...we won, we're out, I'm off.
Brexiteers should be joyous, magnanimous, excited and friendly.
Instead they are nervous, vindictive, angry and shouty.
Why, when Brexit is going to be such a glorious success, I wonder...?
Listen to yourself.0 -
Anyway. Time to do some work.
Laters
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It's as I feared. Once out of london you're in Hartlepool
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LOLRichard_Tyndall said:Because we know that you and the elites you support will do everything in your power to prevent Brexit.
"the elites" aside, what power?
You keep telling us, Brexit is inevitable. Chillax!0 -
I do not really see the point of that given the habits of the opposition to the Brexit for which we voted. There will be room for magnanimity once the poison has been drawn and the future secured.Scott_P said:
A point made in the article linked upthread.TOPPING said:
There is a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Its bosses have committed to Leave - you should just chillax. Let them get on with it and leave. Why so anxious? Yours should be the @isam school of discussion - who cares...we won, we're out, I'm off.
Brexiteers should be joyous, magnanimous, excited and friendly.
Instead they are nervous, vindictive, angry and shouty.
Why, when Brexit is going to be such a glorious success, I wonder...?
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The serious point being yet further validation of that article. You lot still see yourselves being the plucky underdog rising up against "The Man" who keeps his foot on your neck in a positively Dickensian vision of landlord-ist oppression.Richard_Tyndall said:
Because we know that you and the elites you support will do everything in your power to prevent Brexit.Scott_P said:
A point made in the article linked upthread.TOPPING said:
There is a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Its bosses have committed to Leave - you should just chillax. Let them get on with it and leave. Why so anxious? Yours should be the @isam school of discussion - who cares...we won, we're out, I'm off.
Brexiteers should be joyous, magnanimous, excited and friendly.
Instead they are nervous, vindictive, angry and shouty.
Why, when Brexit is going to be such a glorious success, I wonder...?
While I find it attractive that you distinguish between "the elites" on the one hand and presumably BoJo on the other, you need to understand that you are a political interest group which has recently won a general mandate to implement your desired outcome.
SIU!!0 -
I'd run away as well given the hole you've dug for yourself.Richard_Tyndall said:Anyway. Time to do some work.
Laters0 -
That the bright young things who adore Corbyn but hate Brexit still haven't twigged that Corbyn is Brexit's Bessy Mate is one of the wonders of our times....TOPPING said:
Good point but I think the DUP are fairly Brexit-y and hence there is a majority. Plus add in the LotO and your work here is done.Richard_Tyndall said:
Actually there is not a Conservative majority in the HoC.TOPPING said:
There is a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Its bosses have committed to Leave - you should just chillax. Let them get on with it and leave. Why so anxious? Yours should be the @isam school of discussion - who cares...we won, we're out, I'm off.Richard_Tyndall said:
LOL. If that is what Remainers really think then I would suggest they need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Their behaviour has been far more damaging to the country than anything that the Brexiteers have done and it is they who are responsible for the divisions we are now seeing.Scott_P said:Leave was in essence a campaign movement; more specifically, a protest campaign. Thus for them winning the Referendum was an end point, as the Redwood quote above implies. Job done. What seems to have completely disconcerted them is that, in fact, it marked not the end but the beginning. The beginning of having to take responsibility for what they had won, the beginning of having to define what they had won, and the beginning of having to deliver on what they had won not just immediately but for years to come. All of that has proved impossible for them – as might be expected of a protest campaign, especially one that had not expected to win.
It is this which accounts for the way thahed the EU negotiations On the face of it, you’d expect that approach to have been characterised by magnanimity and even joy: we’re leaving for a much better future! In those circumstances things like the ‘divorce bill’ would have been brushed aside: what are a few billion pounds, when so bright a future awaits us?
But of course nothing like that has happened. From the start, the approach of Brexiters both within and outside of government has been confrontational, defensive and angry, often, as I have written before, acting as if Britain were being expelled from the EU rather than choosing to leave. Whenever any consequence of leaving emerges – the possibility of a charge for dent, happy winners of a great prize; all of it makes sense if they are a protest movement, in love with a sense of put-upon victimhood, fearful of – to coin a phrase – taking back control.
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/brexiters-would-have-been-much-happier.html0 -
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/991215477497237504rottenborough said:I missed this yesterday. Woodcock has been suspended by Labour.
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Isn't it accepted wisdom that companies look beyond the simple grade to assess the personality, including getting a decent degree from an unpromising-looking background? When I select someone I'm mildly impressed if they've got a first, but someone who's succeeded against the odds is worth a close look too and may be preferable. I'm not sure she's really saying more than that.HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k0 -
Some have:MarqueeMark said:
That the bright young things who adore Corbyn but hate Brexit still haven't twigged that Corbyn is Brexit's Bessy Mate is one of the wonders of our times....TOPPING said:
Good point but I think the DUP are fairly Brexit-y and hence there is a majority. Plus add in the LotO and your work here is done.Richard_Tyndall said:
Actually there is not a Conservative majority in the HoC.TOPPING said:
There is a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Its bosses have committed to Leave - you should just chillax. Let them get on with it and leave. Why so anxious? Yours should be the @isam school of discussion - who cares...we won, we're out, I'm off.Richard_Tyndall said:
LOL. If that is what Remainers really think then I would suggest they need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Their behaviour has been far more damaging to the country than anything that the Brexiteers have done and it is they who are responsible for the divisions we are now seeing.Scott_P said:Leave was in essence a campaign movement; more specifically, a protest campaign. Thus for them winning the Referendum was an end point, as the Redwood quote above implies. Job done. What seems to have completely disconcerted them is that, in fact, it marked not the end but the beginning. The beginning of having to take responsibility for what they had won, the beginning of having to define what they had won, and the beginning of having to deliver on what they had won not just immediately but for years to come. All of that has proved impossible for them – as might be expected of a protest campaign, especially one that had not expected to win.
snip
But of course nothing like that has happened. From the start, the approach of Brexiters both within and outside of government has been confrontational, defensive and angry, often, as I have written before, acting as if Britain were being expelled from the EU rather than choosing to leave. Whenever any consequence of leaving emerges – the possibility of a charge for dent, happy winners of a great prize; all of it makes sense if they are a protest movement, in love with a sense of put-upon victimhood, fearful of – to coin a phrase – taking back control.
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/brexiters-would-have-been-much-happier.html
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/my-journey-out-of-corbynism_uk_5ae05df4e4b0c9c127e795b3?ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg000000010 -
that's a cruel way to describe FranceRoger said:It's as I feared. Once out of london you're in Hartlepool
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The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.0 -
I think that Greening is tacitly acknowledging that getting the job is 95% of the challenge. With many jobs in large organisations, it doesn't matter how bad someone is, so long as a few people know what they are doing, it won't hurt the company.NickPalmer said:
Isn't it accepted wisdom that companies look beyond the simple grade to assess the personality, including getting a decent degree from an unpromising-looking background? When I select someone I'm mildly impressed if they've got a first, but someone who's succeeded against the odds is worth a close look too and may be preferable. I'm not sure she's really saying more than that.HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k0 -
OT:
Labour lost Ashfield significantly because of the Corbynista mistreatment of senior Labour Councillors, and I am unsure whether they will get it back. It is now with the proto-LibDems, and Zadrozny is back.
It is very LibDemish. The new leader has declared that Garden Bin Charges will be reduced from the current £34 per year. He didn't mention that they were paid last month, so there is nothing to do for 12 months.
Local Elections are due next year.
Are there any other places similar in the Elections this time?
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LOL. No, it really is not.Richard_Tyndall said:
And every one of those campaigns was in favour of leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. Some individuals like me wanted to stay in the Single Market but there were no campaigns which wanted that on the Leave side.JosiasJessop said:
Trying to claim that the 'one official campaign' was the be-all and end-all is, to use your words, "simply dishonest." People would have voted to leave because of the arguments given by the other campaign rather than the 'official' one.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry but that is rubbish. There was one official campaign and that is the one that should be considered. Besides even if you wanted to consider the others they were all absolutely unified on the basis that we should leave the Single Market and the Customs Union. Moreover even the Remain side were absolutely explicit that leaving the EU meant leaving both the Customs Union and the Single Market. Cameron and Osborn were happy to repeat this time and time again.JosiasJessop said:
The electorate voted to 'leave the EU'. There were two leave campaigns with different prospectuses, and many different leave viewpoints. For that reason it's unclear what the electorate voted for, aside from 'leave the EU'. Wanting parliament to vote on final deals etc is not 'thwarting democracy' - in fact, it can be seen as being more democratic, especially given the incongruent leave campaigns.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Tyndall, indeed. The Lords' behaviour could end up having profoundly unpleasant consequences for our democracy.
It seems certain quarters of the political class have dedicated themselves to thwarting what the electorate voted for. That's not healthy for a democracy.
As it happens I think the HoL is being silly and counter-productive in this. But I do not think as a whole they're trying to thwart the will of the electorate.
IMO the people hysterically screaming about the HoL are potentially damaging democracy and the country.
To try and claim there was any doubt on this from any side is simply dishonest.
Like I said your position is fundamentally dishonest.0 -
I suspect that may be true for all parties. Say Labour does quite well in London but just picks up one council. The Tories make net gains outside London but traditional strongholds like Wandsworth see sweeping losses. The LibDems gain two councils and say 60 seats. Everyone picks up some ex-UKIP seats.El_Capitano said:
Yes, agreed. He's doing a remarkably bad job of answering the question "what are the Lib Dems for?".JosiasJessop said:What the Lib Dems need is to shout out their values and what the party can offer the country - and there is a saleable product there. Instead, they're navel-gazing on an area that won't change votes.
Cable is an absolute disaster.
A bad set of locals could be fatal for Cable. But I suspect they will be good enough for him to continue, but not enough to move the needle for the Lib Dems.
What then? The Tories say "Phew, that wasn't so bad" and plug on. Corbyn sees media comments that he's had a disappointing night and shrugs. Cable says he's done OK. The public forgets it all a week later.
If anyone moves against the leader after Thursday I think it'll be the Tories. But probably not, at least until the Brexit position is clearer.0 -
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
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Brown bin time.MattW said:OT:
Labour lost Ashfield significantly because of the Corbynista mistreatment of senior Labour Councillors, and I am unsure whether they will get it back. It is now with the proto-LibDems, and Zadrozny is back.
It is very LibDemish. The new leader has declared that Garden Bin Charges will be reduced from the current £34 per year. He didn't mention that they were paid last month, so there is nothing to do for 12 months.
Local Elections are due next year.
Are there any other places similar in the Elections this time?0 -
It shows, starkly, that the "winners" have no idea what they won, and have made no effort to do soAlanbrooke said:all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
This does not bode well for the future of the Country0 -
the country is split and the old status quo will not returnScott_P said:
It shows, starkly, that the "winners" have no idea what they won, and have made no effort to do soAlanbrooke said:all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
This does not bode well for the future of the Country
time to grow up and seek a new national consensus but this will take years and cant happen until we're out
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We lost because you lot have failed in your lives and think it's all unfair and that the EU is to blame and that in order to turn your miserable lives around all you had to do was vote to leave the EU all will be well.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
Is at one end of the continuum. Your flavour of Brexit reasons I imagine falls somewhere short of that but not too far.0 -
It seems for some Remainers their porcelain tower gets taller and taller, its foundation smaller and smaller. It's now well inside the M25.
The people who used to chant about such things "beginning at Calais" had nothing on this.0 -
HYUFD said:
Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
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The basis of the new national consensus is that Brexit has proven to be an omnishambles and that Brexiteer politicians are a bunch of charlatans.Alanbrooke said:
the country is split and the old status quo will not returnScott_P said:
It shows, starkly, that the "winners" have no idea what they won, and have made no effort to do soAlanbrooke said:all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
This does not bode well for the future of the Country
time to grow up and seek a new national consensus but this will take years and cant happen until we're out0 -
I am a school voucher fan, myself.David_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?0 -
All rounders who have achieved outside the classroom by all means but I prefer to judge on merit and of course once you get to university it is a level playing field whether you went to an 'inadequate' or 'requires improvement' comprehensive or Eton or WestminsterNickPalmer said:
Isn't it accepted wisdom that companies look beyond the simple grade to assess the personality, including getting a decent degree from an unpromising-looking background? When I select someone I'm mildly impressed if they've got a first, but someone who's succeeded against the odds is worth a close look too and may be preferable. I'm not sure she's really saying more than that.HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k0 -
They don't even understand that they did lose. Still in the denial stage.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
https://twitter.com/brexitcountdow1/status/9912257207383859200 -
A busy day for Morris Dancer's wiffle stick I imagine.
Surprised these lads don't have seats in the House of Lords. I have a feeling they'd be Brexity.
https://twitter.com/PeterAlanRoss/status/991178126335070208
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We all lose.Alanbrooke said:all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost and have made no effort to do so
This article is worth a read simply for the astute observation that Theresa May is someone who builds fortresses, not bridges. Brexit suits her, I think. Brexit was never plausible as a bridge building exercise. We will probably end up with burnt bridges and untenable fortresses.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/30/theresa-may-point-leader-stay-still-political-upheaval0 -
Parliaments only expressed wish (through a vote as that’s the only way you can ascertain the view of the whole) is to leave the EU (plus IIRC they have approved the governments negotiating guidelines?).AlastairMeeks said:
The Lords are proposing a change. The Commons has to consider it now. I strongly suspect this point would not have been reached if the government had not sought to ignore Parliament’s wishes repeatedly.Richard_Tyndall said:
The problem is that currently Parliament does not have the power to force the Government to negotiate in a particular way.AlastairMeeks said:The government has already signaled that it will ignore a vote in the Commons telling it to negotiate a customs union. In the face of such contempt for Parliament, is it surprising that the House of Lords sought a means of forcing the government to pay more attention?
Now personally I think they should have that power even though in this case it would result in a decision that would be disastrous for the country. But it should not be for the Lords to be making fundamental changes to the Constitution as it stands for partisan purposes.
The obvious way through is for the government to start taking more cognisance of a Parliament in which it does not command a majority.
I don’t believe they’ve firmally voted for any other position that the government has ignored?0 -
lolwilliamglenn said:
The basis of the new national consensus is that Brexit has proven to be an omnishambles and that Brexiteer politicians are a bunch of charlatans.Alanbrooke said:
the country is split and the old status quo will not returnScott_P said:
It shows, starkly, that the "winners" have no idea what they won, and have made no effort to do soAlanbrooke said:all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
This does not bode well for the future of the Country
time to grow up and seek a new national consensus but this will take years and cant happen until we're out
maybe you should try getting out
the national consensus is everyone is bored shitless about talk on brexit and just wants it out of the way0 -
I mean ivory tower of course, although, I mean, it worksTheWhiteRabbit said:It seems for some Remainers their porcelain tower gets taller and taller, its foundation smaller and smaller. It's now well inside the M25.
The people who used to chant about such things "beginning at Calais" had nothing on this.0 -
Yes that’s the most obvious manifestation of what I’m talking about. People wish they’d never heard the word Brexit.Alanbrooke said:
lolwilliamglenn said:
The basis of the new national consensus is that Brexit has proven to be an omnishambles and that Brexiteer politicians are a bunch of charlatans.Alanbrooke said:
the country is split and the old status quo will not returnScott_P said:
It shows, starkly, that the "winners" have no idea what they won, and have made no effort to do soAlanbrooke said:all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
This does not bode well for the future of the Country
time to grow up and seek a new national consensus but this will take years and cant happen until we're out
maybe you should try getting out
the national consensus is everyone is bored shitless about talk on brexit and just wants it out of the way0 -
Have you ever tried to take a bone away from a dog?Scott_P said:
A point made in the article linked upthread.TOPPING said:
There is a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Its bosses have committed to Leave - you should just chillax. Let them get on with it and leave. Why so anxious? Yours should be the @isam school of discussion - who cares...we won, we're out, I'm off.
Brexiteers should be joyous, magnanimous, excited and friendly.
Instead they are nervous, vindictive, angry and shouty.
Why, when Brexit is going to be such a glorious success, I wonder...?0 -
Several demonstrably non-Brits buried with honour in sites in and around Stonehenge.Theuniondivvie said:A busy day for Morris Dancer's wiffle stick I imagine.
Surprised these lads don't have seats in the House of Lords. I have a feeling they'd be Brexity.
https://twitter.com/PeterAlanRoss/status/9911781263350702080 -
That’s true.Charles said:
Parliaments only expressed wish (through a vote as that’s the only way you can ascertain the view of the whole) is to leave the EU (plus IIRC they have approved the governments negotiating guidelines?).AlastairMeeks said:
The Lords are proposing a change. The Commons has to consider it now. I strongly suspect this point would not have been reached if the government had not sought to ignore Parliament’s wishes repeatedly.Richard_Tyndall said:
The problem is that currently Parliament does not have the power to force the Government to negotiate in a particular way.AlastairMeeks said:The government has already signaled that it will ignore a vote in the Commons telling it to negotiate a customs union. In the face of such contempt for Parliament, is it surprising that the House of Lords sought a means of forcing the government to pay more attention?
Now personally I think they should have that power even though in this case it would result in a decision that would be disastrous for the country. But it should not be for the Lords to be making fundamental changes to the Constitution as it stands for partisan purposes.
The obvious way through is for the government to start taking more cognisance of a Parliament in which it does not command a majority.
I don’t believe they’ve firmally voted for any other position that the government has ignored?0 -
You lost because you couldn't bring the country with you and showed no understanding that you needed to. the miserable peasants vote is as good as yours only there are more of them.TOPPING said:
We lost because you lot have failed in your lives and think it's all unfair and that the EU is to blame and that in order to turn your miserable lives around all you had to do was vote to leave the EU all will be well.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
Is at one end of the continuum. Your flavour of Brexit reasons I imagine falls somewhere short of that but not too far.
0 -
So you think that someone with 3 Bs from Eton has the same merit as someone with 3 Bs from an inner-city comp?HYUFD said:
All rounders who have achieved outside the classroom by all means but I prefer to judge on merit and of course once you get to university it is a level playing field whether you went to an 'inadequate' or 'requires improvement' comprehensive or Eton or WestminsterNickPalmer said:
Isn't it accepted wisdom that companies look beyond the simple grade to assess the personality, including getting a decent degree from an unpromising-looking background? When I select someone I'm mildly impressed if they've got a first, but someone who's succeeded against the odds is worth a close look too and may be preferable. I'm not sure she's really saying more than that.HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k0 -
I think you’re over optimistic.NickPalmer said:
I suspect that may be true for all parties. Say Labour does quite well in London but just picks up one council. The Tories make net gains outside London but traditional strongholds like Wandsworth see sweeping losses. The LibDems gain two councils and say 60 seats. Everyone picks up some ex-UKIP seats.El_Capitano said:
Yes, agreed. He's doing a remarkably bad job of answering the question "what are the Lib Dems for?".JosiasJessop said:What the Lib Dems need is to shout out their values and what the party can offer the country - and there is a saleable product there. Instead, they're navel-gazing on an area that won't change votes.
Cable is an absolute disaster.
A bad set of locals could be fatal for Cable. But I suspect they will be good enough for him to continue, but not enough to move the needle for the Lib Dems.
What then? The Tories say "Phew, that wasn't so bad" and plug on. Corbyn sees media comments that he's had a disappointing night and shrugs. Cable says he's done OK. The public forgets it all a week later.
If anyone moves against the leader after Thursday I think it'll be the Tories. But probably not, at least until the Brexit position is clearer.
The public will forget it in 20 minutes, if they even read/listen in the first place0 -
Surely Parliament's only expressed wish is to follow the decision of the referendum. Unfortunately I don't think anyone has an agreed definition of what the EU actually is.Charles said:
Parliaments only expressed wish (through a vote as that’s the only way you can ascertain the view of the whole) is to leave the EU (plus IIRC they have approved the governments negotiating guidelines?).AlastairMeeks said:
The Lords are proposing a change. The Commons has to consider it now. I strongly suspect this point would not have been reached if the government had not sought to ignore Parliament’s wishes repeatedly.Richard_Tyndall said:
The problem is that currently Parliament does not have the power to force the Government to negotiate in a particular way.AlastairMeeks said:The government has already signaled that it will ignore a vote in the Commons telling it to negotiate a customs union. In the face of such contempt for Parliament, is it surprising that the House of Lords sought a means of forcing the government to pay more attention?
Now personally I think they should have that power even though in this case it would result in a decision that would be disastrous for the country. But it should not be for the Lords to be making fundamental changes to the Constitution as it stands for partisan purposes.
The obvious way through is for the government to start taking more cognisance of a Parliament in which it does not command a majority.
I don’t believe they’ve firmally voted for any other position that the government has ignored?0 -
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/01/labour-backs-push-for-public-ownership-registers-in-uk-overseas-territories
Something I would like to see happen.
Brick by brick many of the tax advantages of owning UK property (in particular) offshore have been taken away, and more of them will be lost between now and 2020. Many structures that would have been based in Jersey or the Isle of Man are now UK resident.
That has not really touched the second reason - opacity - that you might choose to go fully off-shore and get yourself a corporate address in Road Town, Tortola, a street I can only imagine is just a wall of P.O. boxes and company secretaries at the rate of five hundred each.
0 -
“Only losers and failures vote for Brexit”TOPPING said:
We lost because you lot have failed in your lives and think it's all unfair and that the EU is to blame and that in order to turn your miserable lives around all you had to do was vote to leave the EU all will be well.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
Is at one end of the continuum. Your flavour of Brexit reasons I imagine falls somewhere short of that but not too far.
That sounds like an effective campaign message
For the other side...0 -
Mr. Divvie, druids don't really have anything to do with Stone Henge. Still, better to have them there, in their silly outfits, than buggering up the landscape with a tunnel.0
-
It won't even get that in Hertsmere because we don't have a vote this year.Charles said:
I think you’re over optimistic.NickPalmer said:
I suspect that may be true for all parties. Say Labour does quite well in London but just picks up one council. The Tories make net gains outside London but traditional strongholds like Wandsworth see sweeping losses. The LibDems gain two councils and say 60 seats. Everyone picks up some ex-UKIP seats.El_Capitano said:
Yes, agreed. He's doing a remarkably bad job of answering the question "what are the Lib Dems for?".JosiasJessop said:What the Lib Dems need is to shout out their values and what the party can offer the country - and there is a saleable product there. Instead, they're navel-gazing on an area that won't change votes.
Cable is an absolute disaster.
A bad set of locals could be fatal for Cable. But I suspect they will be good enough for him to continue, but not enough to move the needle for the Lib Dems.
What then? The Tories say "Phew, that wasn't so bad" and plug on. Corbyn sees media comments that he's had a disappointing night and shrugs. Cable says he's done OK. The public forgets it all a week later.
If anyone moves against the leader after Thursday I think it'll be the Tories. But probably not, at least until the Brexit position is clearer.
The public will forget it in 20 minutes, if they even read/listen in the first place
I likes the election in thirds, but is no more.
0 -
Why not? You accuse every leave voter after of acting in bad faith promoting xenophobia etc.. Pot, Kettle, Black.AlastairMeeks said:
Instead of having a fact-free meltdown, try looking at what’s proposed. And treating the House of Lords like a malignant swarm rather than a collection of independent individuals is stupid. You might disagree with the amendment’s objectives. You don’t have to accuse every supporter of it of acting in bad faith.Slackbladder said:
The lords are not proposing a change. They are doing everything they can to stop Brexit completely.AlastairMeeks said:
The Lords are proposing a change. The Commons has to consider it now. I strongly suspect this point would not have been reached if the government had not sought to ignore Parliament’s wishes repeatedly.Richard_Tyndall said:
The problem is that currently Parliament does not have the power to force the Government to negotiate in a particular way.AlastairMeeks said:The government has already signaled that it will ignore a vote in the Commons telling it to negotiate a customs union. In the face of such contempt for Parliament, is it surprising that the House of Lords sought a means of forcing the government to pay more attention?
Now personally I think they should have that power even though in this case it would result in a decision that would be disastrous for the country. But it should not be for the Lords to be making fundamental changes to the Constitution as it stands for partisan purposes.
The obvious way through is for the government to start taking more cognisance of a Parliament in which it does not command a majority.0 -
Nearly as good as "Vote Leave and wages will rise"Charles said:
“Only losers and failures vote for Brexit”TOPPING said:
We lost because you lot have failed in your lives and think it's all unfair and that the EU is to blame and that in order to turn your miserable lives around all you had to do was vote to leave the EU all will be well.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
Is at one end of the continuum. Your flavour of Brexit reasons I imagine falls somewhere short of that but not too far.
That sounds like an effective campaign message
For the other side...0 -
I like the way your subconscious has already accepted there will be a second referendum campaign.Charles said:
“Only losers and failures vote for Brexit”TOPPING said:
We lost because you lot have failed in your lives and think it's all unfair and that the EU is to blame and that in order to turn your miserable lives around all you had to do was vote to leave the EU all will be well.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
Is at one end of the continuum. Your flavour of Brexit reasons I imagine falls somewhere short of that but not too far.
That sounds like an effective campaign message
For the other side...0 -
I honestly think the £30 charge for Bassetlaw's garden waste collection is good value all things considered. It's the other £2347 that sticks in the craw a bit.MattW said:OT:
Labour lost Ashfield significantly because of the Corbynista mistreatment of senior Labour Councillors, and I am unsure whether they will get it back. It is now with the proto-LibDems, and Zadrozny is back.
It is very LibDemish. The new leader has declared that Garden Bin Charges will be reduced from the current £34 per year. He didn't mention that they were paid last month, so there is nothing to do for 12 months.
Local Elections are due next year.
Are there any other places similar in the Elections this time?0 -
I didn't think Greening was an idiot..until nowDavid_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?0 -
David it is not either/or.SquareRoot said:
I didn't think Greening was an idiot..until nowDavid_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
We would like a world where all schools are as good as Eton (which is only the 30th best school or something - some state schools already beat it though I am not sure how many comps).
Until we get there, other measures are necessary.0 -
A campaign doesn't necessitate a vote, and certainly not an imminent one. UKIP campaigned for a referendum for more than 20 years before they got it - and only then once they started polling 10%+ as a single-issue party.williamglenn said:
I like the way your subconscious has already accepted there will be a second referendum campaign.Charles said:
“Only losers and failures vote for Brexit”TOPPING said:
We lost because you lot have failed in your lives and think it's all unfair and that the EU is to blame and that in order to turn your miserable lives around all you had to do was vote to leave the EU all will be well.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
Is at one end of the continuum. Your flavour of Brexit reasons I imagine falls somewhere short of that but not too far.
That sounds like an effective campaign message
For the other side...0 -
If they both got the same degree classification and do the same amount of extra curricula activities, absolutelySandyRentool said:
So you think that someone with 3 Bs from Eton has the same merit as someone with 3 Bs from an inner-city comp?HYUFD said:
All rounders who have achieved outside the classroom by all means but I prefer to judge on merit and of course once you get to university it is a level playing field whether you went to an 'inadequate' or 'requires improvement' comprehensive or Eton or WestminsterNickPalmer said:
Isn't it accepted wisdom that companies look beyond the simple grade to assess the personality, including getting a decent degree from an unpromising-looking background? When I select someone I'm mildly impressed if they've got a first, but someone who's succeeded against the odds is worth a close look too and may be preferable. I'm not sure she's really saying more than that.HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k0 -
at least that's one threat they made that came trueSandyRentool said:
Nearly as good as "Vote Leave and wages will rise"Charles said:
“Only losers and failures vote for Brexit”TOPPING said:
We lost because you lot have failed in your lives and think it's all unfair and that the EU is to blame and that in order to turn your miserable lives around all you had to do was vote to leave the EU all will be well.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
Is at one end of the continuum. Your flavour of Brexit reasons I imagine falls somewhere short of that but not too far.
That sounds like an effective campaign message
For the other side...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/21/uk-earnings-interest-rate-rise-wages0 -
Mr. Rentool, that was a moment worth remembering.
In recent history we've had basket of deplorables and Little Englanders. Both uttered by those who should've won and failed due to a number of basic errors.
It does make me wonder if the next election will have the EU as a live issue, or if we'll have another referendum.0 -
Kind of on-topicish.
I don't have any direct canvass contact from this year's locals, so take what I say here with a pinch of salt. However, the feedback I've had from experienced activists across several wards in my part of the world has been encouragingly positive for the Tories. I'd be very surprised if we don't make any gains in Wakefield. I'd settle for a net +2 to +3 (out of 21 wards, with one defence), but it could be more (it could be less too, though I'd be very surprised and disappointed if there are no net gains).0 -
Eton? The school that gave us Cameron, Boris and Jacob RM -- and hence Brexit?David_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
How would we do that? Not even in pb Tories' wildest fantasies can Jeremy Corbyn pledge a per-pupil payment of £40,000 a year to every school in the land.
https://www.etoncollege.com/CurrentFees.aspx
Doubtless there are things that could be taken from Eton and applied elsewhere but the tragedy of education is everyone who has ever been to school -- which is everyone -- thinks they are an expert, and so there is very little scientific study of education, and what there is, is largely ignored.0 -
Its a mad world where the best person for the job gets discriminated against. I can see a whole lot of new law cases.TheWhiteRabbit said:
David it is not either/or.SquareRoot said:
I didn't think Greening was an idiot..until nowDavid_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
We would like a world where all schools are as good as Eton (which is only the 30th best school or something - some state schools already beat it though I am not sure how many comps).
Until we get there, other measures are necessary.0 -
So why do you think Eton gets better results than most other schools?HYUFD said:
If they both got the same degree classification and do the same amount of extra curricula activities, absolutelySandyRentool said:
So you think that someone with 3 Bs from Eton has the same merit as someone with 3 Bs from an inner-city comp?
It's just that the kids that go there are smarter?0 -
Your previoius experience of how things are going means we certainly listen to your feedback!david_herdson said:Kind of on-topicish.
I don't have any direct canvass contact from this year's locals, so take what I say here with a pinch of salt. However, the feedback I've had from experienced activists across several wards in my part of the world has been encouragingly positive for the Tories. I'd be very surprised if we don't make any gains in Wakefield. I'd settle for a net +2 to +3 (out of 21 wards, with one defence), but it could be more (it could be less too, though I'd be very surprised and disappointed if there are no net gains).0 -
we need a poll excluding London.......david_herdson said:Kind of on-topicish.
I don't have any direct canvass contact from this year's locals, so take what I say here with a pinch of salt. However, the feedback I've had from experienced activists across several wards in my part of the world has been encouragingly positive for the Tories. I'd be very surprised if we don't make any gains in Wakefield. I'd settle for a net +2 to +3 (out of 21 wards, with one defence), but it could be more (it could be less too, though I'd be very surprised and disappointed if there are no net gains).0 -
Eton is academically selective and is indeed beaten by a number of super selective state grammar schools in the league tables which are even more academically selective.rkrkrk said:
So why do you think Eton gets better results than most other schools?HYUFD said:
If they both got the same degree classification and do the same amount of extra curricula activities, absolutelySandyRentool said:
So you think that someone with 3 Bs from Eton has the same merit as someone with 3 Bs from an inner-city comp?
It's just that the kids that go there are smarter?
Stowe for example takes pupils whose parents are rich enough to send their children to Eton but who may not pass the Eton entrance exam
0 -
It’s a result of PR isn’t it. Not overt like Tim Bell and the like, but a constant drip drip. Battle of Waterloo and all that. Queens grandchildren went to Eton, so you meet the 'right people’ and so on.DecrepitJohnL said:
Eton? The school that gave us Cameron, Boris and Jacob RM -- and hence Brexit?David_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
How would we do that? Not even in pb Tories' wildest fantasies can Jeremy Corbyn pledge a per-pupil payment of £40,000 a year to every school in the land.
https://www.etoncollege.com/CurrentFees.aspx
Doubtless there are things that could be taken from Eton and applied elsewhere but the tragedy of education is everyone who has ever been to school -- which is everyone -- thinks they are an expert, and so there is very little scientific study of education, and what there is, is largely ignored.
Basildon Comp doesn’t have the same cachet, though in certain occupations you might well meet the right people there!0 -
It's amazing that even now you don't understand the minds of the majority that voted Leave.williamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.0 -
There is huge amounts of scientific study of education.DecrepitJohnL said:
Eton? The school that gave us Cameron, Boris and Jacob RM -- and hence Brexit?David_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
How would we do that? Not even in pb Tories' wildest fantasies can Jeremy Corbyn pledge a per-pupil payment of £40,000 a year to every school in the land.
https://www.etoncollege.com/CurrentFees.aspx
Doubtless there are things that could be taken from Eton and applied elsewhere but the tragedy of education is everyone who has ever been to school -- which is everyone -- thinks they are an expert, and so there is very little scientific study of education, and what there is, is largely ignored.0 -
Implicit in your post is the idea that the pupil with a "B" from Eton is the 'best person' compared to the pupil with a "B" from another school in a deprived area.SquareRoot said:
Its a mad world where the best person for the job gets discriminated against. I can see a whole lot of new law cases.TheWhiteRabbit said:
David it is not either/or.SquareRoot said:
I didn't think Greening was an idiot..until nowDavid_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
We would like a world where all schools are as good as Eton (which is only the 30th best school or something - some state schools already beat it though I am not sure how many comps).
Until we get there, other measures are necessary.
That assumption is both ill-conceived, and if anything, more likely to be wrong than right.0 -
Elliot said:
There is huge amounts of scientific study of education.DecrepitJohnL said:
Eton? The school that gave us Cameron, Boris and Jacob RM -- and hence Brexit?David_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
How would we do that? Not even in pb Tories' wildest fantasies can Jeremy Corbyn pledge a per-pupil payment of £40,000 a year to every school in the land.
https://www.etoncollege.com/CurrentFees.aspx
Doubtless there are things that could be taken from Eton and applied elsewhere but the tragedy of education is everyone who has ever been to school -- which is everyone -- thinks they are an expert, and so there is very little scientific study of education, and what there is, is largely ignored.
There is huge amounts of ...........
or
There are huge amounts of ......... ?
Is there an Eton educated PBer who can give us the answer?0 -
I thought the narrative was that Leavers were all rich bastards that don't care for the poor?Charles said:
“Only losers and failures vote for Brexit”TOPPING said:
We lost because you lot have failed in your lives and think it's all unfair and that the EU is to blame and that in order to turn your miserable lives around all you had to do was vote to leave the EU all will be well.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
Is at one end of the continuum. Your flavour of Brexit reasons I imagine falls somewhere short of that but not too far.
That sounds like an effective campaign message
For the other side...
The painfulness of Remainers' arguments is they so contradict each other. Leavers are rich. Leavers are poor. Brexit is going to be BINO. Brexit is going to be ultra hard. We're going over the cliff edge. Brexit will never really happen. Etc.0 -
Interesting to see that you are pitching for the old-Etonian vote in your ward. Presumably the LibDem has the dog mess and potholes crowd all sown up.HYUFD said:
If they both got the same degree classification and do the same amount of extra curricula activities, absolutelySandyRentool said:
So you think that someone with 3 Bs from Eton has the same merit as someone with 3 Bs from an inner-city comp?HYUFD said:
All rounders who have achieved outside the classroom by all means but I prefer to judge on merit and of course once you get to university it is a level playing field whether you went to an 'inadequate' or 'requires improvement' comprehensive or Eton or WestminsterNickPalmer said:
Isn't it accepted wisdom that companies look beyond the simple grade to assess the personality, including getting a decent degree from an unpromising-looking background? When I select someone I'm mildly impressed if they've got a first, but someone who's succeeded against the odds is worth a close look too and may be preferable. I'm not sure she's really saying more than that.HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k0 -
The wish is father of the dreamwilliamglenn said:
I like the way your subconscious has already accepted there will be a second referendum campaign.Charles said:
“Only losers and failures vote for Brexit”TOPPING said:
We lost because you lot have failed in your lives and think it's all unfair and that the EU is to blame and that in order to turn your miserable lives around all you had to do was vote to leave the EU all will be well.Alanbrooke said:
only in your headwilliamglenn said:
The only argument left for Brexit is that it’s the will of the people, but that argument will be useless in a referendum campaign.RoyalBlue said:In their bubble, I don’t think arch-Remainers appreciate the risks they are running.
To quote a former prime minister, there are things stronger than parliamentary majorities. Parliament will find this at the next general election, if they unilaterally disobey or neuter the referendum mandate.
I also don’t see Remainers winning a second referendum, which would be unparalleled in rancour.
all this thread shows is that the people on the losing side still don't understand why they lost
and have made no effort to do so
you'd lose again
Is at one end of the continuum. Your flavour of Brexit reasons I imagine falls somewhere short of that but not too far.
That sounds like an effective campaign message
For the other side...
There won’t be a third referendum. You had your chance and failed to convince people of the benefits of remaining in the EU0 -
It doesn't need to be nearly that much, I did half my lessons in 'temporary' portacabins at my private school whilst my parents fees were spent building the sports centre for the next cohort.DecrepitJohnL said:
How would we do that? Not even in pb Tories' wildest fantasies can Jeremy Corbyn pledge a per-pupil payment of £40,000 a year to every school in the land.0 -
Has this been done?
https://twitter.com/christiancalgie/status/991078286712242178
Any word on how Labour spread the Hep, dirty needles, unprotected sex?0 -
I went to one of said "super selective state grammars".HYUFD said:
Eton is academically selective and is indeed beaten by a number of super selective state grammar schools in the league tables which are even more academically selective.rkrkrk said:
So why do you think Eton gets better results than most other schools?HYUFD said:
If they both got the same degree classification and do the same amount of extra curricula activities, absolutelySandyRentool said:
So you think that someone with 3 Bs from Eton has the same merit as someone with 3 Bs from an inner-city comp?
It's just that the kids that go there are smarter?
Stowe for example takes pupils whose parents are rich enough to send their children to Eton but who may not pass the Eton entrance exam
Intake is one reason and sure, it probably makes the difference when you want to be literally the best.
But it is not the only factor. Discipline for example is much better.0 -
Tends to be more Old Chigwellians than Old Etonians in EppingSandyRentool said:
Interesting to see that you are pitching for the old-Etonian vote in your ward. Presumably the LibDem has the dog mess and potholes crowd all sown up.HYUFD said:
If they both got the same degree classification and do the same amount of extra curricula activities, absolutelySandyRentool said:
So you think that someone with 3 Bs from Eton has the same merit as someone with 3 Bs from an inner-city comp?HYUFD said:
All rounders who have achieved outside the classroom by all means but I prefer to judge on merit and of course once you get to university it is a level playing field whether you went to an 'inadequate' or 'requires improvement' comprehensive or Eton or WestminsterNickPalmer said:
Isn't it accepted wisdom that companies look beyond the simple grade to assess the personality, including getting a decent degree from an unpromising-looking background? When I select someone I'm mildly impressed if they've got a first, but someone who's succeeded against the odds is worth a close look too and may be preferable. I'm not sure she's really saying more than that.HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k0 -
Eton-educated surely?David_Evershed said:Elliot said:
There is huge amounts of scientific study of education.DecrepitJohnL said:
Eton? The school that gave us Cameron, Boris and Jacob RM -- and hence Brexit?David_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
How would we do that? Not even in pb Tories' wildest fantasies can Jeremy Corbyn pledge a per-pupil payment of £40,000 a year to every school in the land.
https://www.etoncollege.com/CurrentFees.aspx
Doubtless there are things that could be taken from Eton and applied elsewhere but the tragedy of education is everyone who has ever been to school -- which is everyone -- thinks they are an expert, and so there is very little scientific study of education, and what there is, is largely ignored.
There is huge amounts of ...........
or
There are huge amounts of ......... ?
Is there an Eton educated PBer who can give us the answer?0 -
It's a stupid leaflet because the core message has been lost in poor execution.Theuniondivvie said:Has this been done?
https://twitter.com/christiancalgie/status/991078286712242178
Any word on how Labour spread the Hep, dirty needles, unprotected sex?0 -
Just a school that called itself a grammar school but wasn't, but:David_Evershed said:Elliot said:
There is huge amounts of scientific study of education.DecrepitJohnL said:
Eton? The school that gave us Cameron, Boris and Jacob RM -- and hence Brexit?David_Evershed said:HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
Surely it's better to raise the standard in other schools to that of Eton?
How would we do that? Not even in pb Tories' wildest fantasies can Jeremy Corbyn pledge a per-pupil payment of £40,000 a year to every school in the land.
https://www.etoncollege.com/CurrentFees.aspx
Doubtless there are things that could be taken from Eton and applied elsewhere but the tragedy of education is everyone who has ever been to school -- which is everyone -- thinks they are an expert, and so there is very little scientific study of education, and what there is, is largely ignored.
There is huge amounts of ...........
or
There are huge amounts of ......... ?
Is there an Eton educated PBer who can give us the answer?
There are huge amounts of
or
There is a huge amount of0 -
SandyRentool said:
So you think that someone with 3 Bs from Eton has the same merit as someone with 3 Bs from an inner-city comp?HYUFD said:
All rounders who have achieved outside the classroom by all means but I prefer to judge on merit and of course once you get to university it is a level playing field whether you went to an 'inadequate' or 'requires improvement' comprehensive or Eton or WestminsterNickPalmer said:
Isn't it accepted wisdom that companies look beyond the simple grade to assess the personality, including getting a decent degree from an unpromising-looking background? When I select someone I'm mildly impressed if they've got a first, but someone who's succeeded against the odds is worth a close look too and may be preferable. I'm not sure she's really saying more than that.HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k
When I was at school the objective was to get the best exam result with the least effort.
If only this was what the country as a whole practised we wouldn't have such low productivity.0 -
Presumably it refers to this:Theuniondivvie said:Has this been done?
https://twitter.com/christiancalgie/status/991078286712242178
Any word on how Labour spread the Hep, dirty needles, unprotected sex?
http://www.eveshamjournal.co.uk/news/regional/west_midlands/16110477.Hepatitis_A_advice_issued_after_outbreak_in_Lye/0 -
Is that the cast from Birds of a Feather?HYUFD said:
Tends to be more Old Chigwellians than Old Etonians in EppingSandyRentool said:
Interesting to see that you are pitching for the old-Etonian vote in your ward. Presumably the LibDem has the dog mess and potholes crowd all sown up.HYUFD said:
If they both got the same degree classification and do the same amount of extra curricula activities, absolutelySandyRentool said:
So you think that someone with 3 Bs from Eton has the same merit as someone with 3 Bs from an inner-city comp?HYUFD said:
All rounders who have achieved outside the classroom by all means but I prefer to judge on merit and of course once you get to university it is a level playing field whether you went to an 'inadequate' or 'requires improvement' comprehensive or Eton or WestminsterNickPalmer said:
Isn't it accepted wisdom that companies look beyond the simple grade to assess the personality, including getting a decent degree from an unpromising-looking background? When I select someone I'm mildly impressed if they've got a first, but someone who's succeeded against the odds is worth a close look too and may be preferable. I'm not sure she's really saying more than that.HYUFD said:Justine Greening says companies should discriminate against Old Etonian applicants as their grades were easier to achieve than those from some state schools.
Does not sound very conservative to me
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/discriminate-against-job-applicants-from-eton-says-former-education-secretary-justine-greening-m0w3fb86k0 -
Yep.TheWhiteRabbit said:
It's a stupid leaflet because the core message has been lost in poor execution.Theuniondivvie said:Has this been done?
https://twitter.com/christiancalgie/status/991078286712242178
Any word on how Labour spread the Hep, dirty needles, unprotected sex?
Hepatitis should have been in a huge, jaundice yellow font.0 -
Tory pledges 1,2,3 are fluff whilst defibrillators are definitely a useful community asset.Theuniondivvie said:Has this been done?
https://twitter.com/christiancalgie/status/991078286712242178
Any word on how Labour spread the Hep, dirty needles, unprotected sex?
I'm not altogether sure about leisure centre spend either - that has sent my old parishes precept rocketing and might well be best left to the private sector.0 -
That's obviously what I meant.Theuniondivvie said:
Yep.TheWhiteRabbit said:
It's a stupid leaflet because the core message has been lost in poor execution.Theuniondivvie said:Has this been done?
https://twitter.com/christiancalgie/status/991078286712242178
Any word on how Labour spread the Hep, dirty needles, unprotected sex?
Hepatitis should have been in a huge, jaundice yellow font.0 -
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/991233050704039936
Javid's first Cabinet this morning as Home Sec.0 -
This is very, very good on the "hollowing out" of local council services: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/04/crumbling-britain-how-austerity-hollowing-out-heart-tory-somerset
I'm lucky enough to live in a more affluent rural area than West Somerset. But the story is broadly the same. The drip-drip cuts to education and children's services, in particular, are genuinely affecting kids' life chances.
It is enormously to the discredit of Corbyn and Cable that they have failed to make any of this an issue for the local elections.0 -
Dude. It's "extra-curricular". With an R. I'm not sure whether you went to an inner-city comp or Eton but it doesn't make much difference if you're not going to listen to what they teach you.HYUFD said:If they both got the same degree classification and do the same amount of extra curricula activities, absolutely
(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)0 -
Mr. Capitano, where would you get the money from to either maintain or increase said budgets? Foreign aid?0
