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LOL. That idea still makes me laugh.MarqueeMark said:
Yes, but you aren't under the Occupation that London suffers...CD13 said:On-topic. Isn't the 45% Remain opinion based on entitlement. The Poshos aren't used to losing - there must have been cheating, especially as they know what's best for people. It's a 'Wind in the Willows' scenario - you can't have the weasels and stoats having a say.
I can only say that anecdotally, the Remainers around here (the Northwest) have generally reached the acceptance stage.
*titter*0 -
Typical Tory , sell Scotland down the river every time/Charles said:
Trade deals are in the round. For example if the EU negotiators traded the regional protection of the “Scotch Whisky” label to preserve protection for “ Champagne” that might not be in our interestOldKingCole said:
How do we compete with Spanish orange-growers? Come to that the annual production of Italian wine is geater than British.Sandpit said:
We are gaining seats at places like the WTO, where the real power will be in future trade talks. UK trade deals will be written completely in the UK’s interest, rather than the interests of French farms, Italian wineries and Spanish orange growers.Scott_P said:
How does giving up our seat at the table give us more say?Elliot said:to pretend we will have less say is just ridiculous.
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God's strewth....it would be nice to have a day without the following...Brexit, Trump, migration, Syria, MeToo (pay metoo now), climate change, plastics, Syria, terrorism, Russia, NHS crisis, homelessness, Corbyn and Momentum.....
I think a Royal Wedding is in order to lift our spirts.0 -
Much amused when I saw that yesterday.Sandpit said:
Correct, which is why the statistic is completely meaningless in the real world. Ryanair reported a gap of 71%, because 90% of cabin crew and 10% of pilots are female.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Watch this amusing debate (and subsequent Twitter spat) between Stella Creasy and Kate Andrews of the IEA.
https://youtu.be/yl6YlSVBasw
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Erm, I think @Charles point is that doing so would not be in our interest.malcolmg said:
Typical Tory , sell Scotland down the river every time/Charles said:
Trade deals are in the round. For example if the EU negotiators traded the regional protection of the “Scotch Whisky” label to preserve protection for “ Champagne” that might not be in our interestOldKingCole said:
How do we compete with Spanish orange-growers? Come to that the annual production of Italian wine is geater than British.Sandpit said:
We are gaining seats at places like the WTO, where the real power will be in future trade talks. UK trade deals will be written completely in the UK’s interest, rather than the interests of French farms, Italian wineries and Spanish orange growers.Scott_P said:
How does giving up our seat at the table give us more say?Elliot said:to pretend we will have less say is just ridiculous.
The clue is his admittedly cryptic comment 'not be in our interest'0 -
You didn't mention London murders.tyson said:God's strewth....it would be nice to have a day without the following...Brexit, Trump, migration, Syria, MeToo (pay metoo now), climate change, plastics, Syria, terrorism, Russia, NHS crisis, homelessness, Corbyn and Momentum.....
I think a Royal Wedding is in order to lift our spirts.0 -
Some people will always view living under a Conservative government as living under occupation. Such feelings were even stronger in the 1980's.Mortimer said:
LOL. That idea still makes me laugh.MarqueeMark said:
Yes, but you aren't under the Occupation that London suffers...CD13 said:On-topic. Isn't the 45% Remain opinion based on entitlement. The Poshos aren't used to losing - there must have been cheating, especially as they know what's best for people. It's a 'Wind in the Willows' scenario - you can't have the weasels and stoats having a say.
I can only say that anecdotally, the Remainers around here (the Northwest) have generally reached the acceptance stage.
*titter*0 -
Yes I can't help but feel that if the "right" answer had been delivered that the very same remainers would have nothing to say about posters, the campaign, spending, or even the whole principle of referendums. In fact I suspect they would have seen it as a full endorsement of the EU, and a vote for a headlong rush into a federal EU.CD13 said:On-topic. Isn't the 45% Remain opinion based on entitlement. The Poshos aren't used to losing - there must have been cheating, especially as they know what's best for people. It's a 'Wind in the Willows' scenario - you can't have the weasels and stoats having a say.
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He would be thinking of his champagne cellar, rather than his couple of days grouse shooting.Mortimer said:
Erm, I think @Charles point is that doing so would not be in our interest.malcolmg said:
Typical Tory , sell Scotland down the river every time/Charles said:
Trade deals are in the round. For example if the EU negotiators traded the regional protection of the “Scotch Whisky” label to preserve protection for “ Champagne” that might not be in our interestOldKingCole said:
How do we compete with Spanish orange-growers? Come to that the annual production of Italian wine is geater than British.Sandpit said:
We are gaining seats at places like the WTO, where the real power will be in future trade talks. UK trade deals will be written completely in the UK’s interest, rather than the interests of French farms, Italian wineries and Spanish orange growers.Scott_P said:
How does giving up our seat at the table give us more say?Elliot said:to pretend we will have less say is just ridiculous.
The clue is his admittedly cryptic comment 'not be in our interest'0 -
The only way to eliminate the gender pay gap is to push large numbers of men out of full-time employment, which men are likely to resist.Sandpit said:
Correct, which is why the statistic is completely meaningless in the real world. Ryanair reported a gap of 71%, because 90% of cabin crew and 10% of pilots are female.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Watch this amusing debate (and subsequent Twitter spat) between Stella Creasy and Kate Andrews of the IEA.
https://youtu.be/yl6YlSVBasw0 -
Indeed. I’m not sure Creasy was expecting Sky to find a young lady to argue the counter-point, especially not one who had just written a paper on the subject and knew her numbers inside-out.geoffw said:
Much amused when I saw that yesterday.Sandpit said:
Correct, which is why the statistic is completely meaningless in the real world. Ryanair reported a gap of 71%, because 90% of cabin crew and 10% of pilots are female.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Watch this amusing debate (and subsequent Twitter spat) between Stella Creasy and Kate Andrews of the IEA.
https://youtu.be/yl6YlSVBasw0 -
https://twitter.com/B_PellScholes/status/981437285462872064Sandpit said:Which is exactly why we need a seat at the top table at the WTO - to be a powerful voice arguing for the benefits of free trade.
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That makes me like Gove even more....TheScreamingEagles said:Oh and Gove's being a shit, again.
This infighting is attributed to one cause: Cabinet divisions which are feeding into and exacerbating departmental silos. It was Defra which leaked concerns about chlorinated chicken which have plagued every interview Trade Secretary Liam Fox has given, immediately before meetings with US trade counterparts, The Daily Telegraph understands.
I am really quite impressed with Gove...these are words I could never have imagined saying....
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Yes and no. It could pay secretarial and manual workers the same, and/or recruit more female manual workers or more male secretarial workers. Ah, but manual workers need more strength: and in many cases that is true, but in some the brute force is now supplied by machine. Power steering means there are more women bus drivers than there used to be. But why are there more women driving buses than trains?Sean_F said:
In firms that employ lots of secretarial staff, (overwhelmingly female) or lots of manual labourers (overwhelmingly male) it's very hard to see how one could avoid having very large gaps between the average wages of men and women at the firm.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Are secretaries still a thing btw? I've often wondered how much productivity is lost by having highly skilled professionals do their own typing and their own IT maintenance. I'm just about old enough to remember tea trollies -- and sure, management has saved money by installing machines but no-one counts the cost of everyone having to stop what they are doing to walk to the machine and back.0 -
Tokyo 12 Copenhagen 1malcolmg said:
copenhagenPro_Rata said:
OK. Without the link or further Googling, the city with more 3* restaurants than Paris is?DecrepitJohnL said:
France is well ahead at 3-star level (the only list I can find in a 30-second search but I'd be surprised if it were different for 1 and 2 stars). Paris alone has 10; Britain has 5.Charles said:
Do they still have the most starred restaurants? (It may just be London vs Paris or just 3* I am thinking of but sure I read that somewhere)DecrepitJohnL said:
How far ahead of Britain would France be if it were not for these labour laws? If Macron wins, how much will be added to France's GDP growth? How much will French citoyens' standards of living rise?Sandpit said:
He is (and you are) completely right, the question is whether enough of the French public agree for long enough to see off the strikes. Good luck to him!rcs1000 said:
When I met him three years ago, his conviction was that France's labour laws were the primary factor holding his country back. He held firm the first time around, and pushed through one set of reforms.felix said:
He'll bend.rcs1000 said:While I'm sadly too busy to write about it right now, France is truly at a crossroads.
Will Macron hold firm, or will he - like others before him - bend?
This is a bigger set, and the push back from unions is commensurately greater.
I think, while he might offer 'concessions', the core of the reforms will remain. For France's sake, I hope I'm right.
OK, to some extent these are rhetorical questions but someone, not least Macron, ought to have some idea, rather than just a woolly feeling that nice things will happen.
The British and French economies have been more-or-less the same size for decades.
That's a remarkable thing, isn't it? What of the Thatcherite economic reforms or the flight from France under Hollande that used to so exercise posters here? They seem to have made very little difference.
Our economies are not identical. You can cherry-pick measures that show Britain is better or that France is. We have the best language and higher employment; they have more Michelin-starred restaurants and higher productivity. But overall, we are pretty much the same.
So what is the answer? How much are France's labour laws holding the country back? How fast will France zoom ahead if Macron wins?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Michelin_3-star_restaurants
I'm sure all the Tokyo restaurants are genuinely really good, but it does also seem clear that the Michelin panel have a thing for sushi.0 -
Excellent summary of ageing and very much our family experienceNickPalmer said:
I think Foxy was right to discourage a sense of pervasive gloom about age, though your own family experience sounds awful. My impression from canvassing a very large number of people in and out of care homes is that it's common for the elderly to have a physical or (perhaps more rarely) mental problem, but unusual, though horrifying when it happens, for it to be an acute source of misery.tyson said:
Foxy...you should know better than using these kind of anecdotes.....it's what stops us being honest about what are the right choices towards the end of life....
for every 95 year old who is enjoying themselves, how many other over 90's are depressed, lost their minds, in terrible health and riddled with pain, and causing anguish and anxiety for their loved ones....
I don't know what the answers are...but I expect better (much better) from a medic who resorts to Pollyanna like anecdotes....
Only 3% of the population over 65 are actually in care homes:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/ageing/articles/changesintheolderresidentcarehomepopulationbetween2001and2011/2014-08-01
and although there are lots of people who probably ought to be in care and are just hanging on to their homes with family help, it also wouldn't be true to say that most people in care are obviously miserable.
When I last saw the figures, they seemed to show that people don't generally go into steady decline as they get older, as used to be feared. Rather, they carry on much as before until something happens - an accident, a serious illnesss - and it then often goes downhill pretty relentlessly. As you imply, it's someimes harder on the family than it is for the individual - the zest for doing stuff often declines with the ability to do it, and quite a few people decline with something like equanimity, but it's grim for the family seeing the decline and helpless to do anything about it.0 -
Not many men are interested in doing secretarial work. In a bank, say, where men and women are employed as managers, but the staff doing secretarial/junior work are mostly women, average male wages are bound to be higher. If, otoh, it was a company that provided security guards, the reverse would be true.DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes and no. It could pay secretarial and manual workers the same, and/or recruit more female manual workers or more male secretarial workers. Ah, but manual workers need more strength: and in many cases that is true, but in some the brute force is now supplied by machine. Power steering means there are more women bus drivers than there used to be. But why are there more women driving buses than trains?Sean_F said:
In firms that employ lots of secretarial staff, (overwhelmingly female) or lots of manual labourers (overwhelmingly male) it's very hard to see how one could avoid having very large gaps between the average wages of men and women at the firm.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Are secretaries still a thing btw? I've often wondered how much productivity is lost by having highly skilled professionals do their own typing and their own IT maintenance. I'm just about old enough to remember tea trollies -- and sure, management has saved money by installing machines but no-one counts the cost of everyone having to stop what they are doing to walk to the machine and back.0 -
Their beyond 100 days news programme is even jointly hosted by a US journalist and has a US backdrop.DecrepitJohnL said:OT speaking of leading the news, the BBC's news page leads on the Youtube shootings and not the London murders. This is the real bias with the BBC (and elsewhere) -- its staff spend all their time watching and following the American news channels.
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It's terrific.TOPPING said:Btw OT great Johnathan Pie on gender pay gap as I see it’s leading the news.
A huge amount of bollocks is written about the gender pay gap, which far too many of our politicians fall for.0 -
I offered to help; they weren't interested.TheScreamingEagles said:The Telegraph have finally caught up with what I've been banging on about for months on PB, David Davis and Liam Fox are numpties who got high on their own product.
Whitehall 'chaos' puts the UK's Brexit trade strategy in doubt
"Strategy? What strategy?"
So responds a senior civil servant when asked how plans for the future of UK trade are coming together. They then proceed to smash their coffee's foam with the back of a teaspoon aggressively.
"[The] trade strategy is basically tweeting out flag emojis."
Their frustration is not about being for or against Brexit, they stress. It is about understanding the challenge and importance of the UK getting trade right, so that businesses and jobs are protected. At the moment, that is not happening. Instead, "[there is] a distressing and embarrassing level of chaos across Whitehall on trade"...
...In just under a year, after so-called Brexit Day - March 29 2019 - the UK will have the power to strike its own trade deals for the first time in more than 40 years. And it will need to be quick. The moment the ink is dry on a final deal with Brussels there are around 70 trade deals with non-EU countries to try to "roll over". Something once thought to be a copy and paste job has since been shown to be far more complex.
Developing a new trade strategy and implementing it in such a short period will demand close collaboration across government. The work of the two Brexit departments, international trade (DIT) and exiting the EU (Dexeu), will determine the future of trade with the EU. The terms of that deal may well decide the ease with which other, non-EU deals can be struck.
However, several independent sources sum up the relationship between the two departments as "a wall".
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/03/whitehall-chaos-puts-uks-brexit-trade-strategy-doubt/0 -
I’ve been making this point since yesterday but Charles said I don’t know how the world works.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/981448246466875393?s=210 -
And I think one PB-er is suggesting that more women should be encouraged to become warehousemen. And so they should.Casino_Royale said:
It's terrific.TOPPING said:Btw OT great Johnathan Pie on gender pay gap as I see it’s leading the news.
A huge amount of bollocks is written about the gender pay gap, which far too many of our politicians fall for.0 -
Surely Peak Remoaner?Mortimer said:
LOL. That idea still makes me laugh.MarqueeMark said:
Yes, but you aren't under the Occupation that London suffers...CD13 said:On-topic. Isn't the 45% Remain opinion based on entitlement. The Poshos aren't used to losing - there must have been cheating, especially as they know what's best for people. It's a 'Wind in the Willows' scenario - you can't have the weasels and stoats having a say.
I can only say that anecdotally, the Remainers around here (the Northwest) have generally reached the acceptance stage.
*titter*0 -
Which isn't the issue, of course.Sean_F said:
In firms that employ lots of secretarial staff, (overwhelmingly female) or lots of manual labourers (overwhelmingly male) it's very hard to see how one could avoid having very large gaps between the average wages of men and women at the firm.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
I suspect a number of talented people have correctly cottoned on that the most effective way of they themselves getting a pay rise, quickly, is to play this card.0 -
I think that you are being unduly pessimistic. While the possibility of a degrading and uncomfortable slow death exists for us all, the opposite is also true, with an enjoyable old age surrounded by small and large pleasures in good health.tyson said:@Nick Palmer....
Hospitalisation for over 80's manages the staged decline as you rightly indicate...every bout of hospitalisation usually results in a staged downturn turn for the individual.
Medical improvements are now enabling people to live longer with chronic ill health...is that right? I would not subject my pet to medical interventions for the sake of keeping them alive longer whilst chronically ill. If your dog was doubly incontinent, suffering from heart failure, kidney failure, diabetes, unable to walk....would you keep them going? Add in dementia for good measure. My wife's father lived for three years like this...and in the last months the care home was recommending nasal feeding to keep him alive. They were shocked when my wife said absolutely no.
I was rebuking Foxy for his anecdote, because you could get a thousand medics together who would give you a clearer picture of managing the geriatric population....and the jovial 95 year old really wouldn't figure in their discussions.
Medical advances do not change the fact that our bodies were designed for 70 years....and then after our major organs start failing.
It is the possibility of the latter that keeps us going. I do agree that the caring staff do need to consider what the object of care is, and what the prospect of recovery is when suggesting treatment or palliation. I do not support euthanasia, but would want to see palliative care receive more emphasis.0 -
I was close though? Surely only so many ways you can put a slice of raw fish on a platePro_Rata said:
Tokyo 12 Copenhagen 1malcolmg said:
copenhagenPro_Rata said:
OK. Without the link or further Googling, the city with more 3* restaurants than Paris is?DecrepitJohnL said:
France is well ahead at 3-star level (the only list I can find in a 30-second search but I'd be surprised if it were different for 1 and 2 stars). Paris alone has 10; Britain has 5.Charles said:
Do they still have the most starred restaurants? (It may just be London vs Paris or just 3* I am thinking of but sure I read that somewhere)DecrepitJohnL said:
How far ahead of Britain would France be if it were not for these labour laws? If Macron wins, how much will be added to France's GDP growth? How much will French citoyens' standards of living rise?Sandpit said:
He is (and you are) completely right, the question is whether enough of the French public agree for long enough to see off the strikes. Good luck to him!rcs1000 said:
When I met him three years ago, his conviction was that France's labour laws were the primary factor holding his country back. He held firm the first time around, and pushed through one set of reforms.felix said:
He'll bend.rcs1000 said:While I'm sadly too busy to write about it right now, France is truly at a crossroads.
Will Macron hold firm, or will he - like others before him - bend?
This is a bigger set, and the push back from unions is commensurately greater.
I think, while he might offer 'concessions', the core of the reforms will remain. For France's sake, I hope I'm right.
OK, to some extent these are rhetorical questions but someone, not least Macron, ought to have some idea, rather than just a woolly feeling that nice things will happen.
The British and French economies have been more-or-less the same size for decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Michelin_3-star_restaurants
I'm sure all the Tokyo restaurants are genuinely really good, but it does also seem clear that the Michelin panel have a thing for sushi.0 -
Gove is really adopting the green agenda and is on the ball with the plastic reduction scheme and banning ivory sales. He is ticking boxes in my family every day.tyson said:
That makes me like Gove even more....TheScreamingEagles said:Oh and Gove's being a shit, again.
This infighting is attributed to one cause: Cabinet divisions which are feeding into and exacerbating departmental silos. It was Defra which leaked concerns about chlorinated chicken which have plagued every interview Trade Secretary Liam Fox has given, immediately before meetings with US trade counterparts, The Daily Telegraph understands.
I am really quite impressed with Gove...these are words I could never have imagined saying....
One to watch0 -
The pay equality thing should focus on two things....people in the private sector who are not on a pay scale who are doing pretty much the same job with the same qualifications...are their gender discrepancies here, and the continued over representation of men on boards.Sean_F said:
Not many men are interested in doing secretarial work. In a bank, say, where men and women are employed as managers, but the staff doing secretarial/junior work are mostly women, average male wages are bound to be higher. If, otoh, it was a company that provided security guards, the reverse would be true.DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes and no. It could pay secretarial and manual workers the same, and/or recruit more female manual workers or more male secretarial workers. Ah, but manual workers need more strength: and in many cases that is true, but in some the brute force is now supplied by machine. Power steering means there are more women bus drivers than there used to be. But why are there more women driving buses than trains?Sean_F said:
In firms that employ lots of secretarial staff, (overwhelmingly female) or lots of manual labourers (overwhelmingly male) it's very hard to see how one could avoid having very large gaps between the average wages of men and women at the firm.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Are secretaries still a thing btw? I've often wondered how much productivity is lost by having highly skilled professionals do their own typing and their own IT maintenance. I'm just about old enough to remember tea trollies -- and sure, management has saved money by installing machines but no-one counts the cost of everyone having to stop what they are doing to walk to the machine and back.
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They are thick and so easily manipulatedCasino_Royale said:
It's terrific.TOPPING said:Btw OT great Johnathan Pie on gender pay gap as I see it’s leading the news.
A huge amount of bollocks is written about the gender pay gap, which far too many of our politicians fall for.0 -
He is a useless lying toeragtyson said:
That makes me like Gove even more....TheScreamingEagles said:Oh and Gove's being a shit, again.
This infighting is attributed to one cause: Cabinet divisions which are feeding into and exacerbating departmental silos. It was Defra which leaked concerns about chlorinated chicken which have plagued every interview Trade Secretary Liam Fox has given, immediately before meetings with US trade counterparts, The Daily Telegraph understands.
I am really quite impressed with Gove...these are words I could never have imagined saying....0 -
Maybe he recognised a kindred spirit?HYUFD said:
I have to say from personal experience Farage has a certain charisma and a remarkable ability to remember people. I met him once briefly in a bar in Strasbourg and the second time a few years later in Westminster and he remembered meOldKingCole said:
Admittedly probably a more common occurrence then than now.0 -
I had a really interesting conversation with an Italian employment lawyer last night. He is over for 3 months to learn about the Scottish legal system.
He told me that in 2015 Italy made radical changes to its employment law making it much easier and cheaper to sack people. The hope was that they would follow the
UK example and reduce their chronic unemployment. But it hasn’t worked.
Growth remains very low and many of the more ambitious are leaving. Many are coming here. He fears for the future of Italy as a single country. 5 Star are now speaking with other parties but a government does not look imminent. I was able to deploy my PB gleaned knowledge for which many thanks. I am mentoring him for his time here. It’s going to be interesting.
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They may resist, but are they right to?Sean_F said:
The only way to eliminate the gender pay gap is to push large numbers of men out of full-time employment, which men are likely to resist.Sandpit said:
Correct, which is why the statistic is completely meaningless in the real world. Ryanair reported a gap of 71%, because 90% of cabin crew and 10% of pilots are female.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Watch this amusing debate (and subsequent Twitter spat) between Stella Creasy and Kate Andrews of the IEA.
https://youtu.be/yl6YlSVBasw
Okay, I'm an exception, but I gave up work to look after the little 'un. It suited us in various ways, and I'm more than happy with the way things have happened.
I have some other friends who have done the same, and other who have shared parenting: one takes a year off, the other takes the next. And I have other male friends who work all hours and never get to see their children, and feel somewhat disconnected from them.
The biggest issue is school hours: there is no way you can fit a 'normal' full-time job between 09.00 and 15.00. How that can be fixed, or whether it should be fixed, is another debate.0 -
Next up: a female James Bond, which will destroy the franchise.malcolmg said:
They are thick and so easily manipulatedCasino_Royale said:
It's terrific.TOPPING said:Btw OT great Johnathan Pie on gender pay gap as I see it’s leading the news.
A huge amount of bollocks is written about the gender pay gap, which far too many of our politicians fall for.0 -
China slapping tariffs on soybeans is a big, big deal for American politics right?0
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I've been a Green all my life Big G...sustainability, pollution, climate change, animal welfare, pesticides....the Green's are on the right side of the curve. It's a no brainer to want to live in a cleaner, healthier world that respects wildlife....and to accept that we have to pay more for it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Gove is really adopting the green agenda and is on the ball with the plastic reduction scheme and banning ivory sales. He is ticking boxes in my family every day.tyson said:
That makes me like Gove even more....TheScreamingEagles said:Oh and Gove's being a shit, again.
This infighting is attributed to one cause: Cabinet divisions which are feeding into and exacerbating departmental silos. It was Defra which leaked concerns about chlorinated chicken which have plagued every interview Trade Secretary Liam Fox has given, immediately before meetings with US trade counterparts, The Daily Telegraph understands.
I am really quite impressed with Gove...these are words I could never have imagined saying....
One to watch
Conservatism includes an element of protecting the environment...it was the Tories that created the Green belt, afforded protections to badgers etc.....I like some of the stuff that Gove has said about post Brexit farming once we can move away from some of the perverse subsidies of the EU.
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Chlorine's only good enough for tap water, not chickens?Scott_P said:
BollocksSandpit said:UK trade deals will be written completely in the UK’s interest, rather than the interests of French farms, Italian wineries and Spanish orange growers.
Buying Chlorinated chicken from the US is not "completely in the UK’s interest"
We are begging for scraps, and the Brexiteers know it.0 -
I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that question. People will do what suits them best.JosiasJessop said:
They may resist, but are they right to?Sean_F said:
The only way to eliminate the gender pay gap is to push large numbers of men out of full-time employment, which men are likely to resist.Sandpit said:
Correct, which is why the statistic is completely meaningless in the real world. Ryanair reported a gap of 71%, because 90% of cabin crew and 10% of pilots are female.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Watch this amusing debate (and subsequent Twitter spat) between Stella Creasy and Kate Andrews of the IEA.
https://youtu.be/yl6YlSVBasw
Okay, I'm an exception, but I gave up work to look after the little 'un. It suited us in various ways, and I'm more than happy with the way things have happened.
I have some other friends who have done the same, and other who have shared parenting: one takes a year off, the other takes the next. And I have other male friends who work all hours and never get to see their children, and feel somewhat disconnected from them.
The biggest issue is school hours: there is no way you can fit a 'normal' full-time job between 09.00 and 15.00. How that can be fixed, or whether it should be fixed, is another debate.0 -
At the DWP in 2005 secretaries, and tea trollies, were still going strongDecrepitJohnL said:Are secretaries still a thing btw? I've often wondered how much productivity is lost by having highly skilled professionals do their own typing and their own IT maintenance. I'm just about old enough to remember tea trollies -- and sure, management has saved money by installing machines but no-one counts the cost of everyone having to stop what they are doing to walk to the machine and back.
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I think it should be fixed. Schools should operate from 8am to 6pm, just as nurseries already do, and many in the private sector do.JosiasJessop said:
They may resist, but are they right to?Sean_F said:
The only way to eliminate the gender pay gap is to push large numbers of men out of full-time employment, which men are likely to resist.Sandpit said:
Correct, which is why the statistic is completely meaningless in the real world. Ryanair reported a gap of 71%, because 90% of cabin crew and 10% of pilots are female.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Watch this amusing debate (and subsequent Twitter spat) between Stella Creasy and Kate Andrews of the IEA.
https://youtu.be/yl6YlSVBasw
Okay, I'm an exception, but I gave up work to look after the little 'un. It suited us in various ways, and I'm more than happy with the way things have happened.
I have some other friends who have done the same, and other who have shared parenting: one takes a year off, the other takes the next. And I have other male friends who work all hours and never get to see their children, and feel somewhat disconnected from them.
The biggest issue is school hours: there is no way you can fit a 'normal' full-time job between 09.00 and 15.00. How that can be fixed, or whether it should be fixed, is another debate.0 -
Soybeans are the second biggest crop for American farmers. A couple of charts:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/192081/us-soybean-exports-by-major-countries-of-destination/
https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Crops_County/sb-pl.php
This looks easily enough to hit rural areas in Ohio, Wisconsin and Michigan very hard.0 -
Some states grow soybeans; others do not.Elliot said:China slapping tariffs on soybeans is a big, big deal for American politics right?
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A very tired franchise anyway.Casino_Royale said:
Next up: a female James Bond, which will destroy the franchise.malcolmg said:
They are thick and so easily manipulatedCasino_Royale said:
It's terrific.TOPPING said:Btw OT great Johnathan Pie on gender pay gap as I see it’s leading the news.
A huge amount of bollocks is written about the gender pay gap, which far too many of our politicians fall for.
There are plenty of other good role models if you want to make a film/tv series about a female spy, such as Odette, or Violet Szabo or Edith Cavell.0 -
There is no conceivable pathway for a Govt in Italy with the Cinque Stille at 30% of the popular vote......DavidL said:I had a really interesting conversation with an Italian employment lawyer last night. He is over for 3 months to learn about the Scottish legal system.
He told me that in 2015 Italy made radical changes to its employment law making it much easier and cheaper to sack people. The hope was that they would follow the
UK example and reduce their chronic unemployment. But it hasn’t worked.
Growth remains very low and many of the more ambitious are leaving. Many are coming here. He fears for the future of Italy as a single country. 5 Star are now speaking with other parties but a government does not look imminent. I was able to deploy my PB gleaned knowledge for which many thanks. I am mentoring him for his time here. It’s going to be interesting.
Further elections art inevitable....which may well produce the same outcome...
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It should actually become much narrower over time as many of the men now occupying very senior roles in their 50s and 60s started to pursue those careers in the late 70s/early 80s when the numbers of women going to university, together with the broader employment landscape, was very different.Sean_F said:
The only way to eliminate the gender pay gap is to push large numbers of men out of full-time employment, which men are likely to resist.Sandpit said:
Correct, which is why the statistic is completely meaningless in the real world. Ryanair reported a gap of 71%, because 90% of cabin crew and 10% of pilots are female.DecrepitJohnL said:
No, that is not the argument being made. HMG specifically and explicitly recognises that the gender pay gap is not about paying men and women differently for the same jobs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, the argument being made is that differing pay rates are sexist (for warehouse versus shop employees). That's clearly nonsense, even if you buy into the 'equal value' line of thinking.
The gender pay gap is the difference in the average hourly wage of all men and women across a workforce. If women do more of the less well paid jobs within an organisation than men, the gender pay gap is usually bigger.
The gender pay gap is not the same as unequal pay which is paying men and women differently for performing the same (or similar) work. Unequal pay has been unlawful since 1970.
https://gender-pay-gap.service.gov.uk/public/assets/pdf/gender-pay-gap-explained.pdf
Watch this amusing debate (and subsequent Twitter spat) between Stella Creasy and Kate Andrews of the IEA.
The worse outcome would be some informal quota system, which too many companies (including my own) will be tempted to do, to generate the right headline figures.0 -
That won't happen in my lifetime. A black James Bond, on the other hand, is entirely plausible.Casino_Royale said:
Next up: a female James Bond, which will destroy the franchise.malcolmg said:
They are thick and so easily manipulatedCasino_Royale said:
It's terrific.TOPPING said:Btw OT great Johnathan Pie on gender pay gap as I see it’s leading the news.
A huge amount of bollocks is written about the gender pay gap, which far too many of our politicians fall for.0 -
He is addressing very popular green issuestyson said:
I've been a Green all my life Big G...sustainability, pollution, climate change, animal welfare, pesticides....the Green's are on the right side of the curve. It's a no brainer to want to live in a cleaner, healthier world that respects wildlife....and to accept that we have to pay more for it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Gove is really adopting the green agenda and is on the ball with the plastic reduction scheme and banning ivory sales. He is ticking boxes in my family every day.tyson said:
That makes me like Gove even more....TheScreamingEagles said:Oh and Gove's being a shit, again.
This infighting is attributed to one cause: Cabinet divisions which are feeding into and exacerbating departmental silos. It was Defra which leaked concerns about chlorinated chicken which have plagued every interview Trade Secretary Liam Fox has given, immediately before meetings with US trade counterparts, The Daily Telegraph understands.
I am really quite impressed with Gove...these are words I could never have imagined saying....
One to watch
Conservatism includes an element of protecting the environment...it was the Tories that created the Green belt, afforded protections to badgers etc.....I like some of the stuff that Gove has said about post Brexit farming once we can move away from some of the perverse subsidies of the EU.0 -
You couldn't find a bigger James Bond fan than me but, if that is to be its fate, then it's time it was respectfully put to bed.Sean_F said:
A very tired franchise anyway.Casino_Royale said:
Next up: a female James Bond, which will destroy the franchise.malcolmg said:
They are thick and so easily manipulatedCasino_Royale said:
It's terrific.TOPPING said:Btw OT great Johnathan Pie on gender pay gap as I see it’s leading the news.
A huge amount of bollocks is written about the gender pay gap, which far too many of our politicians fall for.
There are plenty of other good role models if you want to make a film/tv series about a female spy, such as Odette, or Violet Szabo or Edith Cavell.
I don't want to see the flawed, but human, anti-hero that Ian Fleming created be desecrated in the name of political correctness just to make a point about "modern" Britain.0 -
Indeed, but as a man, look at your current job and ask yourself how easy it would be for you to take months or years off to have / look after a child (or if you are a little too old, look at the 20- and 30-somethings in your office and put yourself in their shoes), and what that would do to your career.Sean_F said:I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that question. People will do what suits them best.
It isn't easy, but traditionally it's been a question women have to ask themselves. And the expectation is traditionally for them to do it, not the men. Perhaps that needs to change a little - and I think such a move would be good for society.
BTW, I agree with others that the gender pay gap is a much more complex issue than these figures indicate.0 -
I hope you are healthy. I'd have absolutely no issues with the latter, provided it's done for artistic merit and he was the best man for the job - again, it mustn't be just to make a point.david_herdson said:
That won't happen in my lifetime. A black James Bond, on the other hand, is entirely plausible.Casino_Royale said:
Next up: a female James Bond, which will destroy the franchise.malcolmg said:
They are thick and so easily manipulatedCasino_Royale said:
It's terrific.TOPPING said:Btw OT great Johnathan Pie on gender pay gap as I see it’s leading the news.
A huge amount of bollocks is written about the gender pay gap, which far too many of our politicians fall for.
The PC brigade wouldn't understand why I see a difference, of course.0 -
Just watched a video of divers cutting a heavy fishing rope wrapped all around a whale shark and hearing it purring was so uplifting. The way we treat animals says a lot about ourselves0
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I really like the Pie clips...they are all worth a watch.Casino_Royale said:Worth a watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7GWHgVZJQU
But if you want to watch something that is truly worth watching try this......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPgQTAJRzmw0 -
On the really important topic of the day, James Bond.
I have no problems with films about female spies, and even edgy ones such as Bond. However Bond is very much a product of his time, and you'd be better off producing an entirely different female character for a spy, with a different and more modern backstory.
Making Bond female would just be lazy and uninteresting. Just as Bond currently is.
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NEW THREAD
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You and I need to have a serious word.JosiasJessop said:
Making Bond female would just be lazy and uninteresting. Just as Bond currently is.0 -
Even a black (or Middle Eastern) James Bond poses issues for his character. The man is supposed to be the product of the British elite, where he personally felt like an outcast but he was never noticed as such by others. A black kid growing up in private schools in the 1950s would have been openly ostracised and not streamlined into the secret service. Presumably he would also have Jamaican or Nigerian parents at that time and that would also affect his views of the British establishment.Casino_Royale said:
I hope you are healthy. I'd have absolutely no issues with the latter, provided it's done for artistic merit and he was the best man for the job - again, it mustn't be just to make a point.david_herdson said:
That won't happen in my lifetime. A black James Bond, on the other hand, is entirely plausible.Casino_Royale said:
Next up: a female James Bond, which will destroy the franchise.malcolmg said:
They are thick and so easily manipulatedCasino_Royale said:
It's terrific.TOPPING said:Btw OT great Johnathan Pie on gender pay gap as I see it’s leading the news.
A huge amount of bollocks is written about the gender pay gap, which far too many of our politicians fall for.
The PC brigade wouldn't understand why I see a difference, of course.0 -
This morning has consisted largely of Leavers choosing to ignore an inconvenient poll finding. Roughly a quarter of the population believe that the referendum was won by cheating. That has big implications for the democratic process.0
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Exactly Big G....and how we treat old people too. You might have thought that I was being hard on our oldies these last days...but I really do believe we have to do things better for them. Care homes, medical interventions and hospitals are not the answer.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just watched a video of divers cutting a heavy fishing rope wrapped all around a whale shark and hearing it purring was so uplifting. The way we treat animals says a lot about ourselves
I've started some volunteer dog walking to enable some oldies to keep pets which I will have to cut down soon because I am rejoining the workforce to work with vulnerable people....
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It does. Although really we don't have a baseline. It would be necessary to know how many people believe the last general election, for example, was won by cheating. Or how many Leavers thought the referendum was won by cheating before the CambridgeAnalytica / BeLeave stuff came out. In other words, how much of this is genuine issue-specific concern and how much is background cynicism and/or confirmation bias?AlastairMeeks said:This morning has consisted largely of Leavers choosing to ignore an inconvenient poll finding. Roughly a quarter of the population believe that the referendum was won by cheating. That has big implications for the democratic process.
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