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Yeh, what a surprise.Scott_P said:0 -
There you have it - out of his own mouthTheJezziah said:
I was avoiding it because Guido but you seem suitably outraged so I thought I would have a look...Sandpit said:
Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?Floater said:Stay classy Corbynistas
https://order-order.com/2018/03/29/kinder-gentler-politics-latest/
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
People swearing at people online, honestly?
Not saying that isn't bad but quite frankly everyone would have to go and sit as independents if that was the limit.0 -
Yes they are focused on London Labour councils now having already taken over the NEC and the leader's office, MPs will be their final target once there is no escaperottenborough said:0 -
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Wow.TheJezziah said:
I was avoiding it because Guido but you seem suitably outraged so I thought I would have a look...Sandpit said:
Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?Floater said:Stay classy Corbynistas
https://order-order.com/2018/03/29/kinder-gentler-politics-latest/
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
People swearing at people online, honestly?
Not saying that isn't bad but quite frankly everyone would have to go and sit as independents if that was the limit.
That post is not robust conversation. It isn't trying to make or debate a point. It's just plain mass brainless bullying. If twenty people stood up in front of her house and shouted that stuff, they might well get arrested.0 -
"the core of the campaign"? So, we're now all agreed that £350m per week emblazoned on the side of a big red bus was completely immaterial and no one paid any attention to anything said or done over several months aside from a couple of posters launched late in the campaign. If you're looking for someone trying to rewrite history take a look in the mirror.AlastairMeeks said:
Two short points. First, I demand nothing of anyone. I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I merely note the consequences of alternative courses of action and give my own views. I'm not expecting scales to fall from anyone's eyes. The extreme levels to which Leavers go to rewrite history requires the point to be reiterated regularly.Pro_Rata said:
The particular posters successfully persuaded the British people - though immigration was a specific issue in the campaign, one that a large majority of remainers and leavers on here identified as something to be addressed in order to adequately respect the result, the assertion that those specific poster campaigns took Leave over the line rather than the many other elements of the campaign is at best unproven, at worst invention.
The xenophobia was entirely acceptable to these sophisticated voters who did not have any qualms - you have spearheaded this line and are probably keeping more of a score on who has and has not expressed qualms and who has been wholly defensive of those posters than I, but I recall many Leavers on here being critical.
Indeed they were ecstatic at the success of the campaign - yes, they got the result they wanted, but if they are of the, likely correct, opinion that the xenophobic posters were not the driver of the result and didn't like them, what more do they have to personally renounce.
The difference between most on here being party members, whilst many fewer were directly associated with the individual Leave campaigns, means many Leave sophisticates genuinely have nothing to self-reflect on in regards to the conduct of the national Leave campaign itself.
I can see how lumping all leavers into this bucket and demanding daily apology from each of them is getting you precisely nowhere. Even ''all PB sophisticates' is much too broad a net to cast.
And the pity is more in that, your views on how Brexit should be dealt with at this stage, as well as those you held before the referendum, almost entirely reflect my own.
Secondly, the xenophobic posters were at the core of the campaign. Leave activists and voters evidently thought this an acceptable level of xenophobia to associate themselves with. But now they apparently wish to opine about anti-Semitism without being reminded of that.0 -
LOL - I had to do a double take tooScrapheap_as_was said:
i had horrendous flashbacks to 2008 there seeing that....... going for a lie down... now that was a stressful time!!Pulpstar said:Lehman gone
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To put it bluntly, a lot of the Corbyn supporters online have no manners and no decorum. They’re not going to convert people to their cause if they continue to use such inflammatory language. You never hear stories of Conservatives calling their political opponents four letter words, generally we try and engage and debate with them.TheJezziah said:
I was avoiding it because Guido but you seem suitably outraged so I thought I would have a look...Sandpit said:
Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?Floater said:Stay classy Corbynistas
https://order-order.com/2018/03/29/kinder-gentler-politics-latest/
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
People swearing at people online, honestly?
Not saying that isn't bad but quite frankly everyone would have to go and sit as independents if that was the limit.
17 years ago I voted Labour in a general election, maybe I’m just getting old but it’s good to have a choice of parties to vote for. Why would I show any interest in a party that appears now to be filled with angry students and antisemities?0 -
I wish it was unbelievable - but it really is where Labour are goingJosiasJessop said:
Wow.TheJezziah said:
I was avoiding it because Guido but you seem suitably outraged so I thought I would have a look...Sandpit said:
Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?Floater said:Stay classy Corbynistas
https://order-order.com/2018/03/29/kinder-gentler-politics-latest/
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
People swearing at people online, honestly?
Not saying that isn't bad but quite frankly everyone would have to go and sit as independents if that was the limit.
That post is not robust conversation. It isn't trying to make or debate a point. It's just plain mass brainless bullying. If twenty people stood up in front of her house and shouted that stuff, they might well get arrested.0 -
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Going? They've gone. It is the party of the mob.Floater said:
I wish it was unbelievable - but it really is where Labour are goingJosiasJessop said:
Wow.TheJezziah said:
I was avoiding it because Guido but you seem suitably outraged so I thought I would have a look...Sandpit said:
Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?Floater said:Stay classy Corbynistas
https://order-order.com/2018/03/29/kinder-gentler-politics-latest/
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
People swearing at people online, honestly?
Not saying that isn't bad but quite frankly everyone would have to go and sit as independents if that was the limit.
That post is not robust conversation. It isn't trying to make or debate a point. It's just plain mass brainless bullying. If twenty people stood up in front of her house and shouted that stuff, they might well get arrested.
Coming to an elected government near you in 2022.
Terrifying.0 -
NEW THREAD
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I think it is spelt Shamey these days.Floater said:0 -
Collins immediately gets a reply mentioning Iraq.0
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Pretty much true of a lot of things online... I don't know if I'm bursting any bubbles here but the internet is pretty nasty I wasn't defending their ability to debate robustly or anything, clearly they are just abusing her but that is pretty much the internet in general. Obviously just abusing people is clearly a bad thing.JosiasJessop said:
Wow.TheJezziah said:
I was avoiding it because Guido but you seem suitably outraged so I thought I would have a look...Sandpit said:
Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?Floater said:Stay classy Corbynistas
https://order-order.com/2018/03/29/kinder-gentler-politics-latest/
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
People swearing at people online, honestly?
Not saying that isn't bad but quite frankly everyone would have to go and sit as independents if that was the limit.
That post is not robust conversation. It isn't trying to make or debate a point. It's just plain mass brainless bullying. If twenty people stood up in front of her house and shouted that stuff, they might well get arrested.
I know some people have this idea that internet abuse started with Corbyn but quite frankly it has been around for a long time and been slowly getting more attention as the internet has got bigger. I can remember going online back in 1998 and having people swearing at each other, generally in smaller chat rooms rather than via mass communication tools.
My basic point was we could be here for hours look at that level of abuse thrown at each other by the parties, not saying it is nice but it is pretty low level, and for Sandpit's reaction (which is the post I responded to) a bit underwhelming.0 -
Exactly. It needs be more than half the Lab MPs, and they need to have a formal structure such that they form the second largest grouping in Parliament, therefore have the right to nominate the LotO and claim the Short Money.oxfordsimon said:
If they all jumped ship and formed 'Realist Labour' - they would immediately have a group that was large enough to become the official opposition. Corbyn and Rump Labour would lose the trappings and cash that goes with it. The Union money would soon follow.Sandpit said:
But they haven’t, have they? He still has 261 MPs, two thirds of whom have already voted to challenge him once. Yet none of them choose to either challenge him again or resign the whip.glw said:
It passed that point the moment Corbyn became leader. He has enough baggage of his own to make any "moderate" leave the party.Floater said:
It would be messy - extremely so. But it is an option
The Corbynites aren’t going to give up until they have completely taken over the party, they’ll be voting for the boundary changes as it gives them compulsory reselections. Most of the moderates are going to lose their jobs by 2022 anyway, so there should be little stopping them from wanting to jump now.0 -
Dianne Abbot would beg to differ with your high minded assessment of Conservatives.Sandpit said:
To put it bluntly, a lot of the Corbyn supporters online have no manners and no decorum. They’re not going to convert people to their cause if they continue to use such inflammatory language. You never hear stories of Conservatives calling their political opponents four letter words, generally we try and engage and debate with them.TheJezziah said:
I was avoiding it because Guido but you seem suitably outraged so I thought I would have a look...Sandpit said:
Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?Floater said:Stay classy Corbynistas
https://order-order.com/2018/03/29/kinder-gentler-politics-latest/
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
People swearing at people online, honestly?
Not saying that isn't bad but quite frankly everyone would have to go and sit as independents if that was the limit.
17 years ago I voted Labour in a general election, maybe I’m just getting old but it’s good to have a choice of parties to vote for. Why would I show any interest in a party that appears now to be filled with angry students and antisemities?
Maybe you are getting old, why would younger people vote for a party that adopted the policies of the highly suspect UKIP and most of their supporters, the party of Anne Marie Morris and many other suspect thinkers that voted leave....
Why would I want to vote for a party that appears to be filled with old racists?
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The fact some people are bullying asshats on the Internet, does not allow or excuse others from being bullying asshats.TheJezziah said:
Pretty much true of a lot of things online... I don't know if I'm bursting any bubbles here but the internet is pretty nasty I wasn't defending their ability to debate robustly or anything, clearly they are just abusing her but that is pretty much the internet in general. Obviously just abusing people is clearly a bad thing.JosiasJessop said:
Wow.TheJezziah said:
I was avoiding it because Guido but you seem suitably outraged so I thought I would have a look...Sandpit said:
Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?Floater said:Stay classy Corbynistas
https://order-order.com/2018/03/29/kinder-gentler-politics-latest/
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
People swearing at people online, honestly?
Not saying that isn't bad but quite frankly everyone would have to go and sit as independents if that was the limit.
That post is not robust conversation. It isn't trying to make or debate a point. It's just plain mass brainless bullying. If twenty people stood up in front of her house and shouted that stuff, they might well get arrested.
I know some people have this idea that internet abuse started with Corbyn but quite frankly it has been around for a long time and been slowly getting more attention as the internet has got bigger. I can remember going online back in 1998 and having people swearing at each other, generally in smaller chat rooms rather than via mass communication tools.
My basic point was we could be here for hours look at that level of abuse thrown at each other by the parties, not saying it is nice but it is pretty low level, and for Sandpit's reaction (which is the post I responded to) a bit underwhelming.0 -
Not at all but did you read Sandpits reaction?
(Sandpit's reaction)
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Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
_____________________________________________________
To which I expected much more than classic internet idiot!
And as I was trying to point out considering every side has that level of idiot every MP would have to be an independent. Though to clarify that is bad.0 -
Yes, I did read it.TheJezziah said:Not at all but did you read Sandpits reaction?
(Sandpit's reaction)
__________________________________________________
Bloody hell, who are these idiots, and for how many days does this story have to lead the news before people decide they can’t support Corbyn’s party?
There have to be a number of MPs seriously considering resigning the whip by now, even if they don’t want to cross the floor?
_____________________________________________________
To which I expected much more than classic internet idiot!
And as I was trying to point out considering every side has that level of idiot every MP would have to be an independent. Though to clarify that is bad.
And to clarify: the lady in question isn't an MP.
Every side does have that sort of idiot. If you are on a side, then it's important that you call out the idiots *on your own side* rather than condone them just because you are on the same team.0 -
The question of union money - indeed all funding - isn't quite as cut-and-dried as you make out. The union money didn't follow the SDP in 1981 and even if you argue that it'd be a different issue with 150 MPs rather than a couple of dozen or so, unions' leaders are well to the left of the Party these days, compared with where they were in the early 1980s. I don't see Big Len doing anything other than keeping his union's money behind Corbyn.oxfordsimon said:
If they all jumped ship and formed 'Realist Labour' - they would immediately have a group that was large enough to become the official opposition. Corbyn and Rump Labour would lose the trappings and cash that goes with it. The Union money would soon follow.Sandpit said:
But they haven’t, have they? He still has 261 MPs, two thirds of whom have already voted to challenge him once. Yet none of them choose to either challenge him again or resign the whip.glw said:
It passed that point the moment Corbyn became leader. He has enough baggage of his own to make any "moderate" leave the party.Floater said:
It would be messy - extremely so. But it is an option
And if the union money doesn't follow SDP2, where do they get their funding from? Business? Maybe, a little, on Brexit - but that's a short-term solution and in any case, businesses don't generally donate at all these days. Rich individuals? Perhaps - but how hamstrung would they be to be reliant on that source? Local fundraising? Insufficient. Short Money? I don't think they'd get any before 2022?
I'm not saying it couldn't be done but I think it'd be even more difficult than you suggest.0 -
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This discussion has been closed.