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Comments
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Obviously not.Gardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
To pick an obvious example, the text we have covers Gibraltar:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/20/britain-and-eu-clash-over-status-of-gibraltar-under-transition-deal
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????Gardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Britain will be able to negotiate, sign and ratify trade deals during the transition period
Gibraltar explicitly in the deal
International agreements / EU trade deals to continue during transition
joint committee to make sure both sides act in good faith during transition
death of EU’s punishment clause
agreement on financial settlement locked in
???0 -
Not according to that arch remainer, Faisal Islam, who says both sides compromisedGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.0 -
Once again May surprises on the upside. After a speech which pointed to a soft Brexit but to which she got pretty much everyone signed up she now has a transition deal which is even softer. Once again, so far, everyone is on board. Remarkable.
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Amazing. The Leavers' journalistic Satan Matthew Parris was a member.williamglenn said:
Yes, they're wrong - Rees-Mogg is chairman of the European Research Group.TheWhiteRabbit said:
So just to be clear the Staggers (and Telegraph and Sun) are wrong:williamglenn said:
There was previously a different ERG going back to the early 80s where the R did mean reform. The current ERG was created in the 90s out of the Maastricht rebellion and was mainly a vehicle for Daniel Hannan's propaganda.TheWhiteRabbit said:
I thought the "R" was for Reform, and it seems I'm not the only one to have made that mistakePulpstar said:
The name always puzzles me, what research have they actually done into europe ?TheScreamingEagles said:For 21 months we're going to become a vassal state.
That's going to be a hard sell to the ERG lot.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/29/daniel-hannan-the-man-who-brought-you-brexit
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/02/theresa-may-has-picked-yet-another-brexit-fight-she-cannot-win-eu-citizens
There aren't two?
The original European Reform Group is defunct as far as I'm aware. A letter with a list of its members and aims shows up in the Thatcher archives:
https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/1517220 -
Agreed but the punishment clause is still there - but not yet agreedphiliph said:
????Gardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Britain will be able to negotiate, sign and ratify trade deals during the transition period
Gibraltar explicitly in the deal
International agreements / EU trade deals to continue during transition
joint committee to make sure both sides act in good faith during transition
death of EU’s punishment clause
agreement on financial settlement locked in
???0 -
That's obviously not the case. As with the deal agreed a few months ago.Gardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.0 -
I think there are people hoping for a crash out on both sides, for very different reasons. I'd have thought a remainer like Soubry though would find it harder to justify rebellion on an EU heavy transition deal than the hard brexiters would. So how upset will a one sided deal make them, and can they sway anyone who doesn't want a hard brexit but thinks this deal would be too bad to stomach?rkrkrk said:
Arguably the arch remainer/rejoiners should be hoping for a crash out.kle4 said:
That would have to be how the government sells it to them (whether this 'vassal' state talk is fair I have yet to determine, but we know from the initial reactions that will be a perception), although that depends if they even accept extended transition as a price worth paying. There are people who want a crash out of course, so its how many are in that category, as nothing will satisfy those people short of that.rkrkrk said:
I don't know - I think they might buy it.TheScreamingEagles said:For 21 months we're going to become a vassal state.
That's going to be a hard sell to the ERG lot.
The pitch will be:
21 months of vassal state and then freedom.
Or continued vassal state in the EU.
Best chance of a speedy re-entry I would have thought.
A transition period where things stay the same but no influence isn't going to inspire anyone to a second referendum.0 -
Britain isn't a joke country – Brexit will mean Brexit
JRM, master of the non sequitur.0 -
So now it's the wrong kind of transition...
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He hasn’t read it.philiph said:
????Gardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Britain will be able to negotiate, sign and ratify trade deals during the transition period
Gibraltar explicitly in the deal
International agreements / EU trade deals to continue during transition
joint committee to make sure both sides act in good faith during transition
death of EU’s punishment clause
agreement on financial settlement locked in
???0 -
There has been a hell of a lot of projection, from all sides, during the running commentary from people who supposedly know what they are talking about. We could have safely ignored all of it.DavidL said:Once again May surprises on the upside. After a speech which pointed to a soft Brexit but to which she got pretty much everyone signed up she now has a transition deal which is even softer. Once again, so far, everyone is on board. Remarkable.
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"Theresa May’s gravest deception is to pretend she has all the answers"kle4 said:
Stupidity. It's been going on a couple of weeks, the idea that the opposition and media will go easy on the government because of this is moronic. Corbyn won't stop hammering the government about the NHS, nor will the media stop reporting about it, nor should they.TheScreamingEagles said:
I love the caption on the photo though:
Theresa May’s gravest deception is to pretend she has all the answers
Isn't that a deception peddled by all parties and pundits since the dawn of time? Even when they say they don't have all the answers, they still proffer one, which is to vote for them.
Also:
Corbyn’s faithful fear that the potential deaths of MI6 double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia – or any one else in Salisbury who came into contact with the nerve agent – would fuel the cries for a tough response against Moscow.
Why would his faithful fear this? He accepts is was probably Moscow, officially, and if someone were to die a tough response would be the very opposite of overreacting!
A very odd sentiment. I would say May's problem might well be the exact opposite. She avoids taking decisions because she doesn't know the answer. This ends in dithering or phoning Nick Timothy.0 -
Yes - I agree. An extra 2 years is surely the best thing.Anazina said:
As a businessperson I simply want the least damaging settlement for the longest period. So an extra two years is a decent solution, at least for now.rkrkrk said:
Arguably the arch remainer/rejoiners should be hoping for a crash out.kle4 said:
That would have to be how the government sells it to them (whether this 'vassal' state talk is fair I have yet to determine, but we know from the initial reactions that will be a perception), although that depends if they even accept extended transition as a price worth paying. There are people who want a crash out of course, so its how many are in that category, as nothing will satisfy those people short of that.rkrkrk said:
I don't know - I think they might buy it.TheScreamingEagles said:For 21 months we're going to become a vassal state.
That's going to be a hard sell to the ERG lot.
The pitch will be:
21 months of vassal state and then freedom.
Or continued vassal state in the EU.
Best chance of a speedy re-entry I would have thought.
A transition period where things stay the same but no influence isn't going to inspire anyone to a second referendum.
Despite wanting us to remain/rejoin I don't honestly want the disruption that people expect from crashing out.0 -
If they don't feel particularly strongly about it, as is sometimes said of Corbyn, then going with the democratic flow is not a dishonourable decision. If they think it would be a disaster and they do, that might be. If the think it suboptimal but go ahead because of the democratic decision, that is also not dishonourable, necessarily (it would depend on if they became as fervent as a Brexiteer without stating why they were wrong before I suppose).Anazina said:
Not so – it's not undemocratic to hold to your principles just because they suffered a narrow defeat in a referendum. Would these types suddenly become pro-hanging were the policy approved by 51% of the electorate? Actually, they probably would.Mortimer said:
a.k.a., democrats.Stark_Dawning said:
They're the ones who switched from Remain to Leave when Theresa took over, sniffing where the new power resided.kle4 said:
I've not seen 'neobrexiteers' before - who are the neobrexiteers?Anazina said:
The brexiteers and neobrexiteers aren't going to like this package much.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
We remain in the Single Market for all intents and purposes until Christmas 2020. NI could remain indefinitely.0 -
He launched a full-scale invasion of the Soviet Union with over 150 divisions, only eight-and-a-half years after coming to power in a country that was still prevented by international treaty from developing offensive armed forces, having in between taken on and defeated or neutralised the threat from every other country on the continent. I'm not sure how he could reasonably have attacked the Soviets any earlier. An attack later in 1940 wasn't logistically on, and while he could have prompted a war starting in 1938, he would still have had to have defeated (at the minimum) France, the low countries and Norway first - and done so with a country not psychologically ready for war.OldKingCole said:
Quite. but the late Adolf took a while in getting round to it. Though I suspect that if Britain and France hadn’t intervened to ‘help’ Poland the Germas might well have crashed on further East.david_herdson said:
It was always part of the plan. Indeed, it was always the key to the plan. Those who say that Hitler made a mistake in invading the Soviet Union miss the point that the attack was absolutely intrinsic to the nature of Nazism.OldKingCole said:
Eventually!david_herdson said:
It's not wholly inconsistent. The Third Reich also took a hard line on Russia.JonathanD said:
Is there a counter-factual anywhere where that happened?
I'm not sure not guaranteeing Poland was ever a meaningful option for Britain or France, after the fall of Prague. To have not done so - or to have renagued on it - would have been to give a green light to Hitler's occupation of all of Eastern Europe, right down to Greece, which would have directly threatened the Suez Canal.0 -
Another landmark day on our path to exiting the EU. The government has had a pretty good start to 2018.0
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True. Before we get carried away, all this is just about getting Theresa out of the brown stuff after she invoked Article 50 too quickly. Still, at least it goes some way to neutering the Brexit suicide squad.TheScreamingEagles said:We still don't know if on January 1st 2021 we're headed for a cliff edge or a decent deal with the EU.
If the 21 months of vassal statehood are needed to obtain the latter Mrs May should be able to sell that to the country.0 -
No, cone 2021 free movement will end and we will be out of the single marketGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.0 -
Agreed. My fears were that the more extreme wings of brexiteer/neobrexiteer would pay any price to leave the EU – yet the government appears to differ from that extreme position, as evidenced by today's package in which they have (wisely) conceded on pretty much every single point.rkrkrk said:
Yes - I agree. An extra 2 years is surely the best thing.Anazina said:
As a businessperson I simply want the least damaging settlement for the longest period. So an extra two years is a decent solution, at least for now.rkrkrk said:
Arguably the arch remainer/rejoiners should be hoping for a crash out.kle4 said:
That would have to be how the government sells it to them (whether this 'vassal' state talk is fair I have yet to determine, but we know from the initial reactions that will be a perception), although that depends if they even accept extended transition as a price worth paying. There are people who want a crash out of course, so its how many are in that category, as nothing will satisfy those people short of that.rkrkrk said:
I don't know - I think they might buy it.TheScreamingEagles said:For 21 months we're going to become a vassal state.
That's going to be a hard sell to the ERG lot.
The pitch will be:
21 months of vassal state and then freedom.
Or continued vassal state in the EU.
Best chance of a speedy re-entry I would have thought.
A transition period where things stay the same but no influence isn't going to inspire anyone to a second referendum.
Despite wanting us to remain/rejoin I don't honestly want the disruption that people expect from crashing out.0 -
Transition - or “implementation”, to use May’s disingenuous phrase - was always about ticking the box called Brexit while changing absolutely nothing.kle4 said:
If you say so. It was said during the last announcement last year too, though there was some good annotated analysis I recall which showed how we had secured 'wins', though the EU ahd secured more, and Dr Palmer is always advising that for all the froth it is a negotiation and there are fudges, even as more ardent EUphiles say things are only ever one way.Gardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
That was obvious quite early on. And it’s not even about the relative strength of negotiating ability - there was really no other alternative given the respective red lines.
The U.K. made a series of demands for degrees of variance during transition - quite publicly - about migration, about fisheries, etc - all of which it has had to retract. As predicted by many on here.
The “achievement” here is for May to have sold this into Johnson, Gove, and Rees-Mogg - all of whom were denouncing what we have now ended up agreeing, just a few short months ago.
It’s a disgraceful place for the U.K. to be - even for less than two years - but it at least moderates the economic hit for a period.0 -
I don't think anyone is saying the vote should be ignored. But put it another way: another extension of the time we remain to all intents and purposes, within the EU*. I mean if we really, really wanted to leave why didn't we leave on March 2019?Brom said:Another landmark day on our path to exiting the EU. The government has had a pretty good start to 2018.
*A pretty sub-standard membership, of course, but membership nevertheless.0 -
Reading the rest of the piece they may mean it more specifically in relation to the Salisbury event, but that's contradicted in any case by the acknowledgement May didn't pretend she had all the answers in her statement (in not outright stating the only possibility was Putin).rottenborough said:
"Theresa May’s gravest deception is to pretend she has all the answers"kle4 said:
Stupidity. It's been going on a couple of weeks, the idea that the opposition and media will go easy on the government because of this is moronic. Corbyn won't stop hammering the government about the NHS, nor will the media stop reporting about it, nor should they.TheScreamingEagles said:
I love the caption on the photo though:
Theresa May’s gravest deception is to pretend she has all the answers
Isn't that a deception peddled by all parties and pundits since the dawn of time? Even when they say they don't have all the answers, they still proffer one, which is to vote for them.
Also:
Corbyn’s faithful fear that the potential deaths of MI6 double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia – or any one else in Salisbury who came into contact with the nerve agent – would fuel the cries for a tough response against Moscow.
Why would his faithful fear this? He accepts is was probably Moscow, officially, and if someone were to die a tough response would be the very opposite of overreacting!
A very odd sentiment. I would say May's problem might well be the exact opposite. She avoids taking decisions because she doesn't know the answer. This ends in dithering or phoning Nick Timothy.
It does seem though that some of these Corbyn defending pieces seem to be arguing from a position that it was wrong to suggest it was highly likely to be the russians and that the government is only saying so as a distraction, and well done him for saying so, when his position is now not that.
He said: “The evidence points towards Russia on this, therefore responsibility must be borne by those that made the weapon, those that brought the weapon into the country and those that used the weapon.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-backtracks-on-stance-over-kremlin-involvement-spy-poisoning-and-says-the-evidence-a3791066.html0 -
I’m talking about transition. You know, the news we just heard about?HYUFD said:
No, cone 2021 free movement will end and we will be out of the single marketGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Jeez.0 -
It seems we are heading for a deal which reflects the 52/48 split in the referendum and the reality of the more recent GE result. I am content with this and I suspect the least happy will be the more rebid leavers/remainers on both sides. In addition I doubt if Jeremy Corbyn will be overly pleased. AIAWNTL!DavidL said:Once again May surprises on the upside. After a speech which pointed to a soft Brexit but to which she got pretty much everyone signed up she now has a transition deal which is even softer. Once again, so far, everyone is on board. Remarkable.
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Unless something changes by then. (Nearly) three years is a long time in politics.HYUFD said:
No, cone 2021 free movement will end and we will be out of the single marketGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.0 -
Thank goodness she didn't listen to this fellow!Stark_Dawning said:
True. Before we get carried away, all this is just about getting Theresa out of the brown stuff after she invoked Article 50 too quickly.TheScreamingEagles said:We still don't know if on January 1st 2021 we're headed for a cliff edge or a decent deal with the EU.
If the 21 months of vassal statehood are needed to obtain the latter Mrs May should be able to sell that to the country.
https://labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/
In all honesty I think she waited as long as she could, politically. If we had come up on a year and still hadn't declared, i think she would have faced trouble. The less reasonable thing was that even as of this year apparently the cabinet had not agreed key stances to adopt, and of course that she declared, and then had a GE, when many people *cough*me*cough* thought she would not be so silly as to take away several months of negotiation time by holding a GE after declaring.0 -
Thanks.Dura_Ace said:
That was fucked in a different way. All of the donor MR.2s were built on concrete jigs but six of them were built on the jig that wasn't square. The wing kit didn't fit the first donor (XV234) but the rest went on using the age old 'fettle to fit' techniques of the British aircraft industry.JosiasJessop said:
Wasn't that one of the problems with the Nimrod MRA4 - they were not identical, making modifications difficult?
It was all the fault of the rainbow trousered train fancier Portillo.0 -
I would love to have been a fly on the wall when McD marched into Corbyn's office to have it out with him and Seamus over their attempt to throw the next GE so early in the parliament...kle4 said:
Reading the rest of the piece they may mean it more specifically in relation to the Salisbury event, but that's contradicted in any case by the acknowledgement May didn't pretend she had all the answers in her statement (in not outright stating the only possibility was Putin).rottenborough said:
"Theresa May’s gravest deception is to pretend she has all the answers"kle4 said:
Stupidity. It's been going on a couple of weeks, the idea that the opposition and media will go easy on the government because of this is moronic. Corbyn won't stop hammering the government about the NHS, nor will the media stop reporting about it, nor should they.TheScreamingEagles said:
I love the caption on the photo though:
Theresa May’s gravest deception is to pretend she has all the answers
Isn't that a deception peddled by all parties and pundits since the dawn of time? Even when they say they don't have all the answers, they still proffer one, which is to vote for them.
Also:
Corbyn’s faithful fear that the potential deaths of MI6 double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia – or any one else in Salisbury who came into contact with the nerve agent – would fuel the cries for a tough response against Moscow.
Why would his faithful fear this? He accepts is was probably Moscow, officially, and if someone were to die a tough response would be the very opposite of overreacting!
A very odd sentiment. I would say May's problem might well be the exact opposite. She avoids taking decisions because she doesn't know the answer. This ends in dithering or phoning Nick Timothy.
It does seem though that some of these Corbyn defending pieces seem to be arguing from a position that it was wrong to suggest it was highly likely to be the russians and that the government is only saying so as a distraction, and well done him for saying so, when his position is now not that.
He said: “The evidence points towards Russia on this, therefore responsibility must be borne by those that made the weapon, those that brought the weapon into the country and those that used the weapon.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-backtracks-on-stance-over-kremlin-involvement-spy-poisoning-and-says-the-evidence-a3791066.html0 -
I reject any notion that my profile picture has been photoshopped.0
-
Really?philiph said:
????Gardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Britain will be able to negotiate, sign and ratify trade deals during the transition period
Gibraltar explicitly in the deal
International agreements / EU trade deals to continue during transition
joint committee to make sure both sides act in good faith during transition
death of EU’s punishment clause
agreement on financial settlement locked in
???
Nobody has stopped us *negotiating* trade deals - it’s presumably what Fox has tried to do for the last two years. Of course they can not be enacted until the end of transition. This is not a meaningful concession.
Likewise Gibraltar. It is internationally recognised as sovereign U.K. territory. It’s hardly a concession to include it in the deal.
The global trade deals of course make sense, it would basically break the single market and customs union if one country (U.K.) to be in one set of agreements but not another.
The “punishment” clause *is* still in there, we did the financial settlement in the last bleeding negotiation, so nothing new there.
So the only thing I can see is this joint committee. Big effing deal.
HOWEVER, my point is not that we have negotiated badly, or that it is a bad deal as a deal (let’s put aside the democratic issues of taxation without representation).
It is that we made a series of underdeliverable demands and we’ve had the retract the bloody lot of them.0 -
JonnyJimmy said:
I reject any notion that my profile picture has been photoshopped.
0 -
Given Guido has been a firm proponent that 'the only true brexit is a hard brexit', if he was relatively on board perhaps not too many hard brexiters will be willing to bring the house crashing down.
https://order-order.com/2018/03/19/transition-deal-good-news-bad-news/0 -
If only we could send him into space...JonnyJimmy said:I reject any notion that my profile picture has been photoshopped.
0 -
I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b0 -
On topic, I don't think there's much need to doubt this prediction
I’m still optimistic that on May 4th it will be the Tories looking for alibis for bad results, especially in London.0 -
No it doesn’t.felix said:
It seems we are heading for a deal which reflects the 52/48 split in the referendum and the reality of the more recent GE result. I am content with this and I suspect the least happy will be the more rebid leavers/remainers on both sides. In addition I doubt if Jeremy Corbyn will be overly pleased. AIAWNTL!DavidL said:Once again May surprises on the upside. After a speech which pointed to a soft Brexit but to which she got pretty much everyone signed up she now has a transition deal which is even softer. Once again, so far, everyone is on board. Remarkable.
I’m sure very few would have voted for taxation without representation.
What’s been taken off the table today is a full WTO crash out, that’s good. But to do so, we’ve had to agree to follow someone else’s rules - rules which may change - for a few years.
Quite unparalleled in diplomatic history for this country.0 -
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b0 -
When has May ever said we will not have a transition? That transition will still end well before the next general election is dueGardenwalker said:
I’m talking about transition. You know, the news we just heard about?HYUFD said:
No, cone 2021 free movement will end and we will be out of the single marketGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Jeez.0 -
You’re not make any sense.HYUFD said:
When has May ever said we will not have a transition? That transition will still end well before the next general election is dueGardenwalker said:
I’m talking about transition. You know, the news we just heard about?HYUFD said:
No, cone 2021 free movement will end and we will be out of the single marketGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Jeez.
Even less than usual.0 -
First there were no concessions.Gardenwalker said:
Really?
Nobody has stopped us *negotiating* trade deals - it’s presumably what Fox has tried to do for the last two years. Of course they can not be enacted until the end of transition. This is not a meaningful concession.
Likewise Gibraltar. It is internationally recognised as sovereign U.K. territory. It’s hardly a concession to include it in the deal.
The global trade deals of course make sense, it would basically break the single market and customs union if one country (U.K.) to be in one set of agreements but not another.
The “punishment” clause *is* still in there, we did the financial settlement in the last bleeding negotiation, so nothing new there.
So the only thing I can see is this joint committee. Big effing deal.
HOWEVER, my point is not that we have negotiated badly, or that it is a bad deal as a deal (let’s put aside the democratic issues of taxation without representation).
It is that we made a series of underdeliverable demands and we’ve had the retract the bloody lot of them.
Then there are, but they are meaningless.
Next you'll be telling me that yes, there were meaningful concessions, but the UK made much greater ones.
0 -
Crow was referring to his experiences among the bruisers of the RMT. This is a an incredibly weak Tory administration we are talking about – exactly the sort of wet timewasters Crow ate for breakfast on a daily basis.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b0 -
The transition deal itself is a compromise. It is not mandatory to the process of leaving the EU; we could have decided to leave in March 2019. What is agreed in the transition deal is always going to be out of our hands and at the largesse of the EU.HYUFD said:
When has May ever said we will not have a transition? That transition will still end well before the next general election is dueGardenwalker said:
I’m talking about transition. You know, the news we just heard about?HYUFD said:
No, cone 2021 free movement will end and we will be out of the single marketGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Jeez.
And as I have noted earlier, every day of a transition deal is a risk to the government, and to Brexit. Moreso given the nature of the deal as negotiated which is, as @Gardenwalker has noted, taxation without representation and no great way to argue you have benefited the country on the stump at the next GE.0 -
It is not that difficult.Gardenwalker said:
You’re not make any sense.HYUFD said:
When has May ever said we will not have a transition? That transition will still end well before the next general election is dueGardenwalker said:
I’m talking about transition. You know, the news we just heard about?HYUFD said:
No, cone 2021 free movement will end and we will be out of the single marketGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Jeez.
Even less than usual.
We have a transition until the end of December 2020 then we are out in terms of key factors like ending free movement etc, as has always been the case0 -
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.0 -
He seems rather wound up today.TheWhiteRabbit said:
First there were no concessions.Gardenwalker said:
Really?
Nobody has stopped us *negotiating* trade deals - it’s presumably what Fox has tried to do for the last two years. Of course they can not be enacted until the end of transition. This is not a meaningful concession.
Likewise Gibraltar. It is internationally recognised as sovereign U.K. territory. It’s hardly a concession to include it in the deal.
The global trade deals of course make sense, it would basically break the single market and customs union if one country (U.K.) to be in one set of agreements but not another.
The “punishment” clause *is* still in there, we did the financial settlement in the last bleeding negotiation, so nothing new there.
So the only thing I can see is this joint committee. Big effing deal.
HOWEVER, my point is not that we have negotiated badly, or that it is a bad deal as a deal (let’s put aside the democratic issues of taxation without representation).
It is that we made a series of underdeliverable demands and we’ve had the retract the bloody lot of them.
Then there are, but they are meaningless.
Next you'll be telling me that yes, there were meaningful concessions, but the UK made much greater ones.
I wonder why.0 -
No as the transition period will end well before 2022, the date the next general election is dueTOPPING said:
The transition deal itself is a compromise. It is not mandatory to the process of leaving the EU; we could have decided to leave in March 2019. What is agreed in the transition deal is always going to be out of our hands and at the largesse of the EU.HYUFD said:
When has May ever said we will not have a transition? That transition will still end well before the next general election is dueGardenwalker said:
I’m talking about transition. You know, the news we just heard about?HYUFD said:
No, cone 2021 free movement will end and we will be out of the single marketGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Jeez.
And as I have noted earlier, every day of a transition deal is a risk to the government, and to Brexit. Moreso given the nature of the deal as negotiated which is, as @Gardenwalker has noted, taxation without representation and no great way to argue you have benefited the country on the stump at the next GE.0 -
And the winner of the Whitbread, please?HYUFD said:
No as the transition period will end well before 2022, the date the next general election is dueTOPPING said:
The transition deal itself is a compromise. It is not mandatory to the process of leaving the EU; we could have decided to leave in March 2019. What is agreed in the transition deal is always going to be out of our hands and at the largesse of the EU.HYUFD said:
When has May ever said we will not have a transition? That transition will still end well before the next general election is dueGardenwalker said:
I’m talking about transition. You know, the news we just heard about?HYUFD said:
No, cone 2021 free movement will end and we will be out of the single marketGardenwalker said:
You must have very low expectations.RobD said:
I suppose the UK's concessions aren't all that bad if that is the case, and are temporary in nature. They even managed to wrangle Gibraltar into the deal!TheWhiteRabbit said:
Rob, don't buy the Europhile spin.RobD said:
How is that acceptable? Having zero say about what goes on in the UK's own waters?Gardenwalker said:
Doesn’t sound terribly acceptable.AlastairMeeks said:
The EU is going to find the time to set the quotas:Casino_Royale said:
Only for an extra nine months. Fishing is back with the UK in full in 2020. Just not enough time to get all the new quotas agreed by 29th March 2019.TheScreamingEagles said:Confirmation Michael Gove has betrayed the fishing industry.
https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/975705487403560960
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/975705889889030146
All we have done is sign up to a full-vassal transition.
Taxation without representation.
Quotas will be kept the same, or at least very similar, for the transition period. The UK will have to wait for "control". Sure, it will sign that away again, or at least some of it, for UK vessels' access to EU waters.
The U.K. has caved on every front. Every single one.
Jeez.
And as I have noted earlier, every day of a transition deal is a risk to the government, and to Brexit. Moreso given the nature of the deal as negotiated which is, as @Gardenwalker has noted, taxation without representation and no great way to argue you have benefited the country on the stump at the next GE.0 -
The point is there was no decisive vote either in the referendum or the GE and despite your assurances I don't believe you have any insight into the minds of voters. we are getting realpolitik and we all have to suck it up.Gardenwalker said:
No it doesn’t.felix said:
It seems we are heading for a deal which reflects the 52/48 split in the referendum and the reality of the more recent GE result. I am content with this and I suspect the least happy will be the more rebid leavers/remainers on both sides. In addition I doubt if Jeremy Corbyn will be overly pleased. AIAWNTL!DavidL said:Once again May surprises on the upside. After a speech which pointed to a soft Brexit but to which she got pretty much everyone signed up she now has a transition deal which is even softer. Once again, so far, everyone is on board. Remarkable.
I’m sure very few would have voted for taxation without representation.
What’s been taken off the table today is a full WTO crash out, that’s good. But to do so, we’ve had to agree to follow someone else’s rules - rules which may change - for a few years.
Quite unparalleled in diplomatic history for this country.0 -
By 'more intelligent Brexiteers' you mean those not bothered by immigration when ending free movement was one of the main reasons most Leave voters voted Leave, that requires leaving the EEA even if we have a 2 year transition until departureGardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.0 -
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.0 -
Starting to think GardenWalker is a parody account0
-
Not really.Casino_Royale said:
He seems rather wound up today.TheWhiteRabbit said:
First there were no concessions.Gardenwalker said:
Really?
Nobody has stopped us *negotiating* trade deals - it’s presumably what Fox has tried to do for the last two years. Of course they can not be enacted until the end of transition. This is not a meaningful concession.
Likewise Gibraltar. It is internationally recognised as sovereign U.K. territory. It’s hardly a concession to include it in the deal.
The global trade deals of course make sense, it would basically break the single market and customs union if one country (U.K.) to be in one set of agreements but not another.
The “punishment” clause *is* still in there, we did the financial settlement in the last bleeding negotiation, so nothing new there.
So the only thing I can see is this joint committee. Big effing deal.
HOWEVER, my point is not that we have negotiated badly, or that it is a bad deal as a deal (let’s put aside the democratic issues of taxation without representation).
It is that we made a series of underdeliverable demands and we’ve had the retract the bloody lot of them.
Then there are, but they are meaningless.
Next you'll be telling me that yes, there were meaningful concessions, but the UK made much greater ones.
I wonder why.
But I’m perpetually surprised by the profound stupidity of some on here.
The transition deal is only a triumph in the sense that Rees-Mogg is back in his box and business has another two years before it needs to divest. Which is not nothing, but let’s not pretend the government has actually achieved anything in this particular stage of negotiation.0 -
Pretty depressing state of affairs in one sense: the overriding aim of Brexiters was to keep the foreigners out.Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
The rest is details.0 -
Good news again on Brexit?
-1 -
The EU has conceded a number of things, as has already been made clear to you downthread.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.Casino_Royale said:
He seems rather wound up today.TheWhiteRabbit said:
First there were no concessions.Gardenwalker said:
Really?
Nobody has stopped us *negotiating* trade deals - it’s presumably what Fox has tried to do for the last two years. Of course they can not be enacted until the end of transition. This is not a meaningful concession.
Likewise Gibraltar. It is internationally recognised as sovereign U.K. territory. It’s hardly a concession to include it in the deal.
The global trade deals of course make sense, it would basically break the single market and customs union if one country (U.K.) to be in one set of agreements but not another.
The “punishment” clause *is* still in there, we did the financial settlement in the last bleeding negotiation, so nothing new there.
So the only thing I can see is this joint committee. Big effing deal.
HOWEVER, my point is not that we have negotiated badly, or that it is a bad deal as a deal (let’s put aside the democratic issues of taxation without representation).
It is that we made a series of underdeliverable demands and we’ve had the retract the bloody lot of them.
Then there are, but they are meaningless.
Next you'll be telling me that yes, there were meaningful concessions, but the UK made much greater ones.
I wonder why.
But I’m perpetually surprised by the profound stupidity of some on here.
The transition deal is only a triumph in the sense that Rees-Mogg is back in his box and business has another two years before it needs to divest. Which is not nothing, but let’s not pretend the government has actually achieved anything in this particular stage of negotiation.
There are none so blind as those who can’t see.0 -
You forget the usual Brexiteer disclaimer:Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
"Of course I have no problem with it personally, but it's the little people you see... They just can't abide the thought of Latvians moving in next door, and anyway, they should stay in Latvia where they belong and help the Latvian economy instead of coming over here."0 -
Whose fault was that? Largely Blair's for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 like most existing EU nationsTOPPING said:
Pretty depressing state of affairs in one sense: the overriding aim of Brexiters was to keep the foreigners out.Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
The rest is details.0 -
Brexit, declared dead every month since June 2016, remains in remarkably good health.GIN1138 said:Good news again on Brexit?
(EDIT: declared dead many times before then of course! including yours truly...)0 -
People not liking foreigners is their own fault. Not Blair's not anyone else's.HYUFD said:
Whose fault was that? Largely Blair's for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 like most existing EU nationsTOPPING said:
Pretty depressing state of affairs in one sense: the overriding aim of Brexiters was to keep the foreigners out.Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
The rest is details.0 -
EEA transition beats vassal transition, is what I’m saying.HYUFD said:
By 'more intelligent Brexiteers' you mean those not bothered by immigration when ending free movement was one of the main reasons most Leave voters voted Leave, that requires leaving the EEA even if we have a 2 year transition until departureGardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.0 -
thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-claims-hius-life-being-ruined-by-immigration-but-cant-explain-how-20170227122932williamglenn said:
You forget the usual Brexiteer disclaimer:Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
"Of course I have no problem with it personally, but it's the little people you see... They just can't abide the thought of Latvians moving in next door, and anyway, they should stay in Latvia where they belong and help the Latvian economy instead of coming over here."0 -
You’re no one on PB until you’re accused of being a parody account.Brom said:Starting to think GardenWalker is a parody account
0 -
Fast forward 13 months: we're in transition with a legally agreed backstop solution for Northern Ireland keeping it in the customs union but without a long-term deal with the EU yet agreed and we want to negotiate trade deals with third countries. For which customs territory are we negotiating? The only answer can be Great Britain, not the UK.0
-
0
-
It is highly improbable nothing has been achieved at all. If you don't think much as been achieved, fine, but not achieving 'anything' doesn't make any sense, because if that was the case we really would have gone for No deal by now. Argue its one sided, to be sure, but this insistence that we never achieve anything simply makes no sense.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.Casino_Royale said:
He seems rather wound up today.TheWhiteRabbit said:
First there were no concessions.Gardenwalker said:
Really?
Nobody has stopped us *negotiating* trade deals - it’s presumably what Fox has tried to do for the last two years. Of course they can not be enacted until the end of transition. This is not a meaningful concession.
Likewise Gibraltar. It is internationally recognised as sovereign U.K. territory. It’s hardly a concession to include it in the deal.
The global trade deals of course make sense, it would basically break the single market and customs union if one country (U.K.) to be in one set of agreements but not another.
The “punishment” clause *is* still in there, we did the financial settlement in the last bleeding negotiation, so nothing new there.
So the only thing I can see is this joint committee. Big effing deal.
HOWEVER, my point is not that we have negotiated badly, or that it is a bad deal as a deal (let’s put aside the democratic issues of taxation without representation).
It is that we made a series of underdeliverable demands and we’ve had the retract the bloody lot of them.
Then there are, but they are meaningless.
Next you'll be telling me that yes, there were meaningful concessions, but the UK made much greater ones.
I wonder why.
But I’m perpetually surprised by the profound stupidity of some on here.
The transition deal is only a triumph in the sense that Rees-Mogg is back in his box and business has another two years before it needs to divest. Which is not nothing, but let’s not pretend the government has actually achieved anything in this particular stage of negotiation.0 -
They are essentially the same thing, in neither case do we have Commissioners or MEPsGardenwalker said:
EEA transition beats vassal transition, is what I’m saying.HYUFD said:
By 'more intelligent Brexiteers' you mean those not bothered by immigration when ending free movement was one of the main reasons most Leave voters voted Leave, that requires leaving the EEA even if we have a 2 year transition until departureGardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.0 -
We have faffed around to the point whereby without a transition deal we would have incurred serious damage.kle4 said:
It is highly improbable nothing has been achieved at all. If you don't think much as been achieved, fine, but not achieving 'anything' doesn't make any sense, because if that was the case we really would have gone for No deal by now. Argue its one sided, to be sure, but this insistence that we never achieve anything simply makes no sense.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.Casino_Royale said:
He seems rather wound up today.TheWhiteRabbit said:
First there were no concessions.Gardenwalker said:
Really?
Nobody has stopped us *negotiating* trade deals - it’s presumably what Fox has tried to do for the last two years. Of course they can not be enacted until the end of transition. This is not a meaningful concession.
Likewise Gibraltar. It is internationally recognised as sovereign U.K. territory. It’s hardly a concession to include it in the deal.
The global trade deals of course make sense, it would basically break the single market and customs union if one country (U.K.) to be in one set of agreements but not another.
The “punishment” clause *is* still in there, we did the financial settlement in the last bleeding negotiation, so nothing new there.
So the only thing I can see is this joint committee. Big effing deal.
HOWEVER, my point is not that we have negotiated badly, or that it is a bad deal as a deal (let’s put aside the democratic issues of taxation without representation).
It is that we made a series of underdeliverable demands and we’ve had the retract the bloody lot of them.
Then there are, but they are meaningless.
Next you'll be telling me that yes, there were meaningful concessions, but the UK made much greater ones.
I wonder why.
But I’m perpetually surprised by the profound stupidity of some on here.
The transition deal is only a triumph in the sense that Rees-Mogg is back in his box and business has another two years before it needs to divest. Which is not nothing, but let’s not pretend the government has actually achieved anything in this particular stage of negotiation.
The EU knows this, Tezza probably knows it, small children in Peterborough know it. The EU is being surprisingly benign about it all.0 -
It has got nothing to do with 'not liking foreigners' except for a small minority.TOPPING said:
People not liking foreigners is their own fault. Not Blair's not anyone else's.HYUFD said:
Whose fault was that? Largely Blair's for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 like most existing EU nationsTOPPING said:
Pretty depressing state of affairs in one sense: the overriding aim of Brexiters was to keep the foreigners out.Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
The rest is details.
It has got everything to do with the fact we did not have the work permit requirements, preference to local workers requirements etc the likes of France, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland etc had from 2004 to 2011 for Eastern European migrants but a largely open door policy0 -
Six departures from Labour HQ today. Looks like a major changing of the guard there.
Others more knowledgeable than me can comment on the significance.0 -
Do you have a link to that please?AlastairMeeks said:Six departures from Labour HQ today. Looks like a major changing of the guard there.
Others more knowledgeable than me can comment on the significance.0 -
Off to the salt mines?AlastairMeeks said:Six departures from Labour HQ today. Looks like a major changing of the guard there.
Others more knowledgeable than me can comment on the significance.0 -
Your every other post points out that people voted to leave because they wanted to keep the foreigners out. Now it's something about work permit requirements.HYUFD said:
It has got nothing to do with 'not liking foreigners' except for a small minority.TOPPING said:
People not liking foreigners is their own fault. Not Blair's not anyone else's.HYUFD said:
Whose fault was that? Largely Blair's for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 like most existing EU nationsTOPPING said:
Pretty depressing state of affairs in one sense: the overriding aim of Brexiters was to keep the foreigners out.Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
The rest is details.
It has got everything to do with the fact we did not have the work permit requirements, preference to local workers requirements etc the likes of France, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland etc had from 2004 to 2011 for Eastern European migrants but a largely open door policy0 -
https://twitter.com/GuardianAnushka/status/975726249183244288TheScreamingEagles said:
Do you have a link to that please?AlastairMeeks said:Six departures from Labour HQ today. Looks like a major changing of the guard there.
Others more knowledgeable than me can comment on the significance.0 -
Let’s see what our future state is first.Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
The more intelligent Brexiters - some on here - knew early on that the least worse exit involved us exiting to EEA/EFTA status (or similar) for a transitional period - or more permanently if you are a soft Brexiter.
Instead we have all of the downsides of EFTA with none of the upsides - albeit for less than two years.
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
0 -
Cheers.AlastairMeeks said:
https://twitter.com/GuardianAnushka/status/975726249183244288TheScreamingEagles said:
Do you have a link to that please?AlastairMeeks said:Six departures from Labour HQ today. Looks like a major changing of the guard there.
Others more knowledgeable than me can comment on the significance.0 -
Yes because the lack of transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries was pivotal to Leave getting over 50% in the referendumTOPPING said:
Your every other post points out that people voted to leave because they wanted to keep the foreigners out. Now it's something about work permit requirements.HYUFD said:
It has got nothing to do with 'not liking foreigners' except for a small minority.TOPPING said:
People not liking foreigners is their own fault. Not Blair's not anyone else's.HYUFD said:
Whose fault was that? Largely Blair's for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 like most existing EU nationsTOPPING said:
Pretty depressing state of affairs in one sense: the overriding aim of Brexiters was to keep the foreigners out.Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
The rest is details.
It has got everything to do with the fact we did not have the work permit requirements, preference to local workers requirements etc the likes of France, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland etc had from 2004 to 2011 for Eastern European migrants but a largely open door policy0 -
I think you need a reboot.HYUFD said:
Yes because the lack of transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries was pivotal to Leave getting over 50% in the referendumTOPPING said:
Your every other post points out that people voted to leave because they wanted to keep the foreigners out. Now it's something about work permit requirements.HYUFD said:
It has got nothing to do with 'not liking foreigners' except for a small minority.TOPPING said:
People not liking foreigners is their own fault. Not Blair's not anyone else's.HYUFD said:
Whose fault was that? Largely Blair's for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 like most existing EU nationsTOPPING said:
Pretty depressing state of affairs in one sense: the overriding aim of Brexiters was to keep the foreigners out.Mortimer said:
Our future state is incompatible with free movement from the EU. Everything flows from that.Gardenwalker said:kle4 said:
Well, as Bob Crow apparently put it 'If you fight, you won't always win, but if you don't fight you will always lose'. So worth a try?Stark_Dawning said:I'm not a great Starmer fan but can't argue with his gist:
This agreement could have been signed months ago but ministers wasted time fighting among themselves, holding out on negotiating objectives that they have failed to achieve and pursuing their reckless red lines.
Labour was the first to call for sensible transitional arrangements because it is the only way to protect jobs and the economy.
It is welcome that they have finally struck a deal on transition and now the government must prioritise negotiating a final agreement that protects jobs, the economy and guarantees there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/19/bexit-davis-barnier-press-conference-russia-salisbury-srkipal-denials-over-spy-poisoning-growing-increasingly-absurd-says-boris-johnson-politics-live?page=with:block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b#block-5aafb7cfe4b06194ea77dc3b
There *was* another path.
But we negotiated ourselves out of it.
The rest is details.
It has got everything to do with the fact we did not have the work permit requirements, preference to local workers requirements etc the likes of France, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland etc had from 2004 to 2011 for Eastern European migrants but a largely open door policy0 -
No it hasn’t been made clear.Casino_Royale said:
The EU has conceded a number of things, as has already been made clear to you downthread.Gardenwalker said:
Not really.Casino_Royale said:
He seems rather wound up today.TheWhiteRabbit said:
First there were no concessions.Gardenwalker said:
Really?
Nobody has stopped us *negotiating* trade deals - it’s presumably what Fox has tried to do for the last two years. Of course they can not be enacted until the end of transition. This is not a meaningful concession.
Likewise Gibraltar. It is internationally recognised as sovereign U.K. territory. It’s hardly a concession to include it in the deal.
The global trade deals of course make sense, it would basically break the single market and customs union if one country (U.K.) to be in one set of agreements but not another.
The “punishment” clause *is* still in there, we did the financial settlement in the last bleeding negotiation, so nothing new there.
So the only thing I can see is this joint committee. Big effing deal.
HOWEVER, my point is not that we have negotiated badly, or that it is a bad deal as a deal (let’s put aside the democratic issues of taxation without representation).
It is that we made a series of underdeliverable demands and we’ve had the retract the bloody lot of them.
Then there are, but they are meaningless.
Next you'll be telling me that yes, there were meaningful concessions, but the UK made much greater ones.
I wonder why.
But I’m perpetually surprised by the profound stupidity of some on here.
The transition deal is only a triumph in the sense that Rees-Mogg is back in his box and business has another two years before it needs to divest. Which is not nothing, but let’s not pretend the government has actually achieved anything in this particular stage of negotiation.
There are none so blind as those who can’t see.
The EU have made no meaningful concessions, as predicted by many.
Whereas we have had to retract all demands for divergence. See Ruth’s post expressing disappointment.
PB Tories can masturbate all they wish about what a frabjous day this is, the rest of us can just sigh in relief that things will remain the same for a few years.
Davis can’t help it, he knows Brexit is an almighty clusterfuck - and it’s his name on the tin.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
I've translated that.TheScreamingEagles said:
"I would prefer not to Brexit at all but I really like the NE Scotland votes"0 -
UK conceded on EU citizens getting full residence status during the transition, independent fisheries takes effect from 2020, not 30th March 2019, and there's a backstop on NI, as described in the annexes.
EU conceded on trade deals during transition, Gibraltar being part of transition, and a joint committee to oversee the transition arrangement, which in practice means the UK and EU agreeing on disputes or having to both agree to refer to the ECJ for it to rule.
The NI piece looks most significant to me, which I'm yet to full digest.0 -
She's a Remainer who's party is the the only vehicle for the vote of Brexiters in ScotlandTheWhiteRabbit said:0 -
It means you can have Brexit or the union but not both.Casino_Royale said:The NI piece looks most significant to me, which I'm yet to full digest.
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Good news in principle that we have the makings of a transitional deal.
I have printed off the 129 page "draft agreement" text and shall review it later. Call me a picky old lawyer though, but how exactly is it "an agreement" when the opening page clearly states that only the stuff in green is actually agreed (subject to "technical legal revisions"), the yellow is agreed "as policy" but not detail, and the non-highlighted stuff is still being negotiated?
There's an awful lot in yellow and white....0 -
Here we go....williamglenn said:
It means you can have Brexit or the union but not both.Casino_Royale said:The NI piece looks most significant to me, which I'm yet to full digest.
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As ever, Nicola Sturgeon can be relied upon to come up with a response which is so curmudgeonly as to be deliciously bonkers:
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/975716209395150848
So, to be clear Nicola, a 21 month transition period where we accept EU rules is a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the Tories, but your policy of wanting a permanent acceptance of EU rules wouldn't be a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the SNP?0 -
I think she and the NE Tories will be ok if we have full control of the fish by the time of the next general election.Alistair said:
I've translated that.TheScreamingEagles said:
"I would prefer not to Brexit at all but I really like the NE Scotland votes"
Will also make a great leaflet for the 2021 Holyrood elections for the Blue Meanies.0 -
No, because it's the difference between being honest with people and conning them. Surely that's not hard to understand?Richard_Nabavi said:So, to be clear Nicola, a 21 month transition period where we accept EU rules is a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the Tories, but your policy of wanting a permanent acceptance of EU rules wouldn't be a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the SNP?
0 -
I'm not sure it was ever the EU's official's position, but we were told that NI would bring down the whole house.RobD said:
Here we go....williamglenn said:
It means you can have Brexit or the union but not both.Casino_Royale said:The NI piece looks most significant to me, which I'm yet to full digest.
It seems a bit more comfortable now. The EU appears to accept that NI might have some differences to rUK, and London will do what it can to keep those to a minimum. That is a much more natural starting point than the previous.0 -
Presumably she's concerned at the fact that we don't get to make any of the rules during the transition period.Richard_Nabavi said:As ever, Nicola Sturgeon can be relied upon to come up with a response which is so curmudgeonly as to be deliciously bonkers:
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/975716209395150848
So, to be clear Nicola, a 21 month transition period where we accept EU rules is a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the Tories, but your policy of wanting a permanent acceptance of EU rules wouldn't be a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the SNP?0 -
The boats could have Scottish flags on them...Richard_Nabavi said:So, to be clear Nicola, a 21 month transition period where we accept EU rules is a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the Tories, but your policy of wanting a permanent acceptance of EU rules wouldn't be a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the SNP?
0 -
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They were promised full and total control of British waters immediately as a consequence of voting to Leave. They haven't got that.Richard_Nabavi said:As ever, Nicola Sturgeon can be relied upon to come up with a response which is so curmudgeonly as to be deliciously bonkers:
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/975716209395150848
So, to be clear Nicola, a 21 month transition period where we accept EU rules is a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the Tories, but your policy of wanting a permanent acceptance of EU rules wouldn't be a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the SNP?0 -
No as May also made clear in December the UK as a whole would have sufficient regulatory alignment as a backstop if the Irish issue was still to be resolved post transition but we would still have Brexitedwilliamglenn said:
It means you can have Brexit or the union but not both.Casino_Royale said:The NI piece looks most significant to me, which I'm yet to full digest.
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And the foreigners are still coming in, too!Alistair said:
They were promised full and total control of British waters immediately as a consequence of voting to Leave. They haven't got that.Richard_Nabavi said:As ever, Nicola Sturgeon can be relied upon to come up with a response which is so curmudgeonly as to be deliciously bonkers:
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/975716209395150848
So, to be clear Nicola, a 21 month transition period where we accept EU rules is a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the Tories, but your policy of wanting a permanent acceptance of EU rules wouldn't be a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the SNP?0 -
If we don't come up with a solution to the Irish Border question then Northern Ireland effectively remains part of the EU.Casino_Royale said:UK conceded on EU citizens getting full residence status during the transition, independent fisheries takes effect from 2020, not 30th March 2019, and there's a backstop on NI, as described in the annexes.
EU conceded on trade deals during transition, Gibraltar being part of transition, and a joint committee to oversee the transition arrangement, which in practice means the UK and EU agreeing on disputes or having to both agree to refer to the ECJ for it to rule.
The NI piece looks most significant to me, which I'm yet to full digest.0 -
If they get it in the end, I can’t see it being a huge issue.Alistair said:
They were promised full and total control of British waters immediately as a consequence of voting to Leave. They haven't got that.Richard_Nabavi said:As ever, Nicola Sturgeon can be relied upon to come up with a response which is so curmudgeonly as to be deliciously bonkers:
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/975716209395150848
So, to be clear Nicola, a 21 month transition period where we accept EU rules is a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the Tories, but your policy of wanting a permanent acceptance of EU rules wouldn't be a massive sellout of the Scottish fishing industry by the SNP?0 -
The question for Labour, for 2022, is do they accept the status quo at the time or seek to rejoin?
It's not a question that has been much asked so far, as we've not left and the energy of the ardent pro-EU faction has been to either to prevent Brexit altogether, or else to minimise its effects. However, if the transitional deal does end at the beginning of 2021, that question then becomes a very live one. We all know where Corbyn stands. We also know where much of the PLP, the membership and Labour's voters stand.0
