politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour candidates fear doorstep questions about Corbyn and the
Comments
-
Except Corbyn's position is officially to accept it was highly likely the Russians, just not to overreact. (Which is nonsense since we've barely reacted and the idea if our outrage had been less fulsome things would be hunky dory is bullshit) So try again.Roger said:Following several appearances by Boris I'm beginning to have serious doubts about the veracity of the British account. Since Iraq the intelligence services have been suspect and there are now several questions that need answering. Not least Putin's motives which seem to be non-existent.
If it turns out that this was not a Russian adventure Corbyn's stock will be sky high and as we've seen before he's a very lucky politician.
As for motive several potential ones have been offered, and whatever flaws they have they have been more credible than any alternatives such as that murray blokes.
0 -
They don't have a free press (of the sort many in Labour want to abolish) to give them information. Our press is imperfect - God, yes, it's imperfect - but it's orders of magnitude better than the Russian press.Roger said:
I would imagine there are at least as many Russians who believe Putin didn't do it as British who believe he did. Do we think they are stupider than we are or just brainwashed?Gardenwalker said:
But what doesn’t make sense?Roger said:
I'm not looking for an alternative explanation just wanting the explanation we have to make sense. Even a little bit of sense. As soon as the police fill in the blanks we can all let looseMarqueeMark said:
But what comes across, Roger, is a burning desire for there to BE an alternative explanation, against the massive weight of evidence, history and common sense. To seek to find an alternative explanation requires special pleading heaped on special pleading, with a nice crispy side-order of special pleading. It's also the thin veneer being used by those who caused these events to protect them from the outright condemnation they deserve.Roger said:I'm not accusing May of lying. I'm sure she believes that's what happened. I just think there may be an alternative explanation. Until we know all the facts or even enough to make a theory plausible we should hold our fire.
We ask our juries to convict not on the basis of absolute knowledge, but of beyond reasonable doubt. You are trying to get an acquittal on the basis of unreasonble doubt. Knock it off.
I find it interesting that turnout in the Russian election was only 60%. Once you get less than that, questions may be raised about strength of support.
The attempted Skripal hit - or more accurately, the necessary Western response, allows Putin to rally his “base”. And there’s one less ex-spy walking the streets which is perhaps convenient for Putin in other respects.
In fact, being a journalist in Russia appears to be a fairly dangerous occupation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
Another thing to consider: saying the things we say about our government (whichever party is in power) on here might routinely see us harassed, imprisoned or worse in countries like Russia.0 -
GnasherJew, on Twitter, has an interesting line on Corbyn's kinder, gentler Facebook group which he didn't know had some mean people in it.0
-
There is nothing that anyone could say or do - including the man himself - that would persuade you to give up on Corbyn. And, of course, you are not alone. Therein lies the Tories’ salvation.TheJezziah said:
Given your great track record of predictions regarding Corbyn I guess we should just give up now then.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, the Tory baseline of 40% of the vote is priced in. That pretty much ensures Labour cannot win the next general election. McDonnell - who really wants to get into power - clearly understands this.NickPalmer said:As I've said, I largely agree with Corbyn's response to the affair. But as usual I think Sean F has a soberly realistic view - the affair has benefited the Tories slightly and damaged Labour slightly. In general any kind of perceived foreign threat benefits the government in power, and it plays to May's strengths (sober, dry presentation) and it gives the Mail and Sun an opportunity to air their views about Corbyn in lavish detail. The reason it's not had more effect is that "Corbyn isn't your conventional patriot" (to put it neutrally) is pretty well priced in - most people know that, and either they like it or they don't or they feel it's irrelevant to what matters to them.
Corbyn's reaction to criticism is to calmly state his views again. McDonnell is much more of a conventional politician despite his image in some quarters and more willing to tack to the wind. There is a market for polite consistency, though, and I'm not convinced that any lasting effect will materialise.
0 -
Roger, Russia doesn’t have a free press and their democracy is at least, flawed.Roger said:
I would imagine there are at least as many Russians who believe Putin didn't do it as British who believe he did. Do we think they are stupider than we are or just brainwashed?Gardenwalker said:
But what doesn’t make sense?Roger said:
I'm not looking for an alternative explanation just wanting the explanation we have to make sense. Even a little bit of sense. As soon as the police fill in the blanks we can all let looseMarqueeMark said:
But what comes across, Roger, is a burning desire for there to BE an alternative explanation, against the massive weight of evidence, history and common sense. To seek to find an alternative explanation requires special pleading heaped on special pleading, with a nice crispy side-order of special pleading. It's also the thin veneer being used by those who caused these events to protect them from the outright condemnation they deserve.Roger said:I'm not accusing May of lying. I'm sure she believes that's what happened. I just think there may be an alternative explanation. Until we know all the facts or even enough to make a theory plausible we should hold our fire.
We ask our juries to convict not on the basis of absolute knowledge, but of beyond reasonable doubt. You are trying to get an acquittal on the basis of unreasonble doubt. Knock it off.
I find it interesting that turnout in the Russian election was only 60%. Once you get less than that, questions may be raised about strength of support.
The attempted Skripal hit - or more accurately, the necessary Western response, allows Putin to rally his “base”. And there’s one less ex-spy walking the streets which is perhaps convenient for Putin in other respects.
So - no, I don’t particularly trust the opinions of the Russian demos.
0 -
But the factor that makes a read across from Miliband's win is that London seems to be the one place where resentment of Brexit really is still bending previous voting patterns out of shape.HYUFD said:
Yes but even Ed Miliband won London by a comfortable double figure margin in 2014 and by 20 London boroughs to the Tories 9 so it is really just a case of the Tories trying to save the furniture in London. Outside London the Tories could well win in May, especially as it is only English districts votingMarqueeMark said:
Outside London maybe. I can't see anything other than London being very bad for the Tories.HYUFD said:
Will they? Labour led most polls before the May 2014 local elections and won them by 2%.SirNorfolkPassmore said:I strongly disagree with Corbyn's line but very much doubt this will affect the polling markedly. There's a Trump element here - to a large extent, the fact that the "political and media establishment" has attacked Corbyn for his knee-jerk reaction is likely to galvanise his support... even though the establishment are right on this one.
Labour will clearly do very well in May. 2014 was a relatively poor year for Miliband's Labour - 31% and 2% lead. Labour will far exceed that this year, particularly given London is a large voting area and is good for Corbyn.
Now the Tories are ahead in most polls after the Russian affair and it is not impossible Labour could even lose seats to the Tories
There are plenty of Londoners who clearly demonstrate a belief that their views are for more important, far better informed than the pig-shit thickoes who live beyond the M25 in deepest, darkest Brexitland.0 -
In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.0
-
You show exactly the same contempt for them that you claim they show for you ...MarqueeMark said:
But the factor that makes a read across from Miliband's win is that London seems to be the one place where resentment of Brexit really is still bending previous voting patterns out of shape.HYUFD said:
Yes but even Ed Miliband won London by a comfortable double figure margin in 2014 and by 20 London boroughs to the Tories 9 so it is really just a case of the Tories trying to save the furniture in London. Outside London the Tories could well win in May, especially as it is only English districts votingMarqueeMark said:
Outside London maybe. I can't see anything other than London being very bad for the Tories.HYUFD said:
Will they? Labour led most polls before the May 2014 local elections and won them by 2%.SirNorfolkPassmore said:I strongly disagree with Corbyn's line but very much doubt this will affect the polling markedly. There's a Trump element here - to a large extent, the fact that the "political and media establishment" has attacked Corbyn for his knee-jerk reaction is likely to galvanise his support... even though the establishment are right on this one.
Labour will clearly do very well in May. 2014 was a relatively poor year for Miliband's Labour - 31% and 2% lead. Labour will far exceed that this year, particularly given London is a large voting area and is good for Corbyn.
Now the Tories are ahead in most polls after the Russian affair and it is not impossible Labour could even lose seats to the Tories
There are plenty of Londoners who clearly demonstrate a belief that their views are for more important, far better informed than the pig-shit thickoes who live beyond the M25 in deepest, darkest Brexitland.0 -
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
0 -
More likely they think he did do it, and they approve.Roger said:
I would imagine there are at least as many Russians who believe Putin didn't do it as British who believe he did. Do we think they are stupider than we are or just brainwashed?Gardenwalker said:
But what doesn’t make sense?Roger said:
I'm not looking for an alternative explanation just wanting the explanation we have to make sense. Even a little bit of sense. As soon as the police fill in the blanks we can all let looseMarqueeMark said:
But what comes across, Roger, is a burning desire for there to BE an alternative explanation, against the massive weight of evidence, history and common sense. To seek to find an alternative explanation requires special pleading heaped on special pleading, with a nice crispy side-order of special pleading. It's also the thin veneer being used by those who caused these events to protect them from the outright condemnation they deserve.Roger said:I'm not accusing May of lying. I'm sure she believes that's what happened. I just think there may be an alternative explanation. Until we know all the facts or even enough to make a theory plausible we should hold our fire.
We ask our juries to convict not on the basis of absolute knowledge, but of beyond reasonable doubt. You are trying to get an acquittal on the basis of unreasonble doubt. Knock it off.
I find it interesting that turnout in the Russian election was only 60%. Once you get less than that, questions may be raised about strength of support.
The attempted Skripal hit - or more accurately, the necessary Western response, allows Putin to rally his “base”. And there’s one less ex-spy walking the streets which is perhaps convenient for Putin in other respects.0 -
But we have been careful and measured so it is him arguing against something non existent for no reason. We've expelled diplomats, said some harsh words and probably more sanctions will come. Does anyone think if our words were less harsh things would be different?Tykejohnno said:
I said that last week.Jonathan said:I would not be surprised if there isn't quiet support for Corbyn's "careful now" approach .
Some people doubt that it was probably Russia. Corbyn officially is not one of those. He wants robust dialogue. Russia accepts no culpability , going so far as to joke it was a false flag attack. What are we to talk about? And given he officially accepts it was probably the Russians, harsh language is a measured response to a Chemicalattack.
So I am unconvinced his response is some piece of calm statesmanship, even if he officially is not as doubtful as some of his attackers think. As I will attempt to stop banging on about, so far the Gov has reacted, not overreacted as he lamely is implying.0 -
I think it pretty nailed on that Putin was behind the poisoning, but there is a need for the evidence to be aired publically and by a neutral agency, which does seem now to be the plan. In a world of Fake News and conspiracy theory there is little trust of the words of intelligence agencies and governments. Those days are gone for good.NickPalmer said:As I've said, I largely agree with Corbyn's response to the affair. But as usual I think Sean F has a soberly realistic view - the affair has benefited the Tories slightly and damaged Labour slightly. In general any kind of perceived foreign threat benefits the government in power, and it plays to May's strengths (sober, dry presentation) and it gives the Mail and Sun an opportunity to air their views about Corbyn in lavish detail. The reason it's not had more effect is that "Corbyn isn't your conventional patriot" (to put it neutrally) is pretty well priced in - most people know that, and either they like it or they don't or they feel it's irrelevant to what matters to them.
Corbyn's reaction to criticism is to calmly state his views again. McDonnell is much more of a conventional politician despite his image in some quarters and more willing to tack to the wind. There is a market for polite consistency, though, and I'm not convinced that any lasting effect will materialise.
The issue then becomes one of Real Politik. How bellicose should our response be? Putin benefits domestically, and in some quarters internationally, by being seen as a Strong and Stable leader. Public confrontation plays to his strengths and objectives. A more thoughtful approach, and some quiet undermining of his assets is needed.0 -
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
0 -
So how much did he win the popular vote by?geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
0 -
Firstly, do you think the majority in Russia believe Putin didn't do it, or do a sizeable number think he's a patriot, who is willing to do what is necessary to prevent treachery? I'm not sure which applies more. Possibly a bit of both - targeted to market. Certainly, Russians have an historically different view on the value of a few human lives versus the interests of Mother Russia, so you'd not expect mass anger (far from it) at a traitor being poisoned if that is the view of the public.Roger said:
I would imagine there are at least as many Russians who believe Putin didn't do it as British who believe he did. Do we think they are stupider than we are or just brainwashed?Gardenwalker said:
But what doesn’t make sense?Roger said:
I'm not looking for an alternative explanation just wanting the explanation we have to make sense. Even a little bit of sense. As soon as the police fill in the blanks we can all let looseMarqueeMark said:
But what comes across, Roger, is a burning desire for there to BE an alternative explanation, against the massive weight of evidence, history and common sense. To seek to find an alternative explanation requires special pleading heaped on special pleading, with a nice crispy side-order of special pleading. It's also the thin veneer being used by those who caused these events to protect them from the outright condemnation they deserve.Roger said:I'm not accusing May of lying. I'm sure she believes that's what happened. I just think there may be an alternative explanation. Until we know all the facts or even enough to make a theory plausible we should hold our fire.
We ask our juries to convict not on the basis of absolute knowledge, but of beyond reasonable doubt. You are trying to get an acquittal on the basis of unreasonble doubt. Knock it off.
I find it interesting that turnout in the Russian election was only 60%. Once you get less than that, questions may be raised about strength of support.
The attempted Skripal hit - or more accurately, the necessary Western response, allows Putin to rally his “base”. And there’s one less ex-spy walking the streets which is perhaps convenient for Putin in other respects.
Secondly, I think they have a much less free press and much less free political debate generally. That's not "brainwashing" but it does strongly affect views. Do you agree?
0 -
It's electoral college votes that matter, just as it's seats that matter in Westminster.TheScreamingEagles said:
So how much did he win the popular vote by?geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
0 -
That's not the presidential electoral system. Look squirrel.TheScreamingEagles said:
So how much did he win the popular vote by?geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
0 -
On topic it shouldn’t be an issue unless more defectors start getting poisoned.
Depends on how brazen you think Vlad is.0 -
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.0 -
When it's all over the number of votes Trump got will be one of the least important aspects of his legitimacy. I also suspect there will be a hell of lot fewer people who recall voting for him.geoffw said:He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.
0 -
You’re the one who mentioned popular approval.geoffw said:
That's not the presidential electoral system. Look squirrel.TheScreamingEagles said:
So how much did he win the popular vote by?geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
That’s why it’s called the popular vote.0 -
Quite so, but why do they become politicians? I guess it is to get and wield power. The answer lies in the checks and balances of the democratic process itself.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
0 -
Well there's already been a suspected murder of an exile since the chemical attack.TheScreamingEagles said:On topic it shouldn’t be an issue unless more defectors start getting poisoned.
Depends on how brazen you think Vlad is.0 -
Do you remember the bar fight scene in the film 'Trainspotting'?
Begbie is a vicious thug, but his friends still defend him ... "A total psycho, but he's a mate, so what can you do?"
In this case, Putin isn't a friend, but he's an enemy of their enemy, so that explains Owen Jones et al. "Maybe it wasn't Begbie, but someone else disguised as him. Let's wait for the coppers." "But no one in here will talk." "So we have to give him the benefit of the doubt."0 -
Difference is, I'm respecting the will of the majority.JosiasJessop said:
You show exactly the same contempt for them that you claim they show for you ...MarqueeMark said:
But the factor that makes a read across from Miliband's win is that London seems to be the one place where resentment of Brexit really is still bending previous voting patterns out of shape.HYUFD said:
Yes but even Ed Miliband won London by a comfortable double figure margin in 2014 and by 20 London boroughs to the Tories 9 so it is really just a case of the Tories trying to save the furniture in London. Outside London the Tories could well win in May, especially as it is only English districts votingMarqueeMark said:
Outside London maybe. I can't see anything other than London being very bad for the Tories.HYUFD said:
Will they? Labour led most polls before the May 2014 local elections and won them by 2%.SirNorfolkPassmore said:I strongly disagree with Corbyn's line but very much doubt this will affect the polling markedly. There's a Trump element here - to a large extent, the fact that the "political and media establishment" has attacked Corbyn for his knee-jerk reaction is likely to galvanise his support... even though the establishment are right on this one.
Labour will clearly do very well in May. 2014 was a relatively poor year for Miliband's Labour - 31% and 2% lead. Labour will far exceed that this year, particularly given London is a large voting area and is good for Corbyn.
Now the Tories are ahead in most polls after the Russian affair and it is not impossible Labour could even lose seats to the Tories
There are plenty of Londoners who clearly demonstrate a belief that their views are for more important, far better informed than the pig-shit thickoes who live beyond the M25 in deepest, darkest Brexitland.0 -
https://euobserver.com/foreign/141362
Heiko Maas, the German foreign minister, has described Russia as a "difficult partner", but said the UK poisoning was a "bilateral" issue, indicating that Britain can count on little support from the EU.
Maas spoke ahead of a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels on Monday (19 March), one day after Russian leader Vladimir Putin secured six more years in power and in the wake of British allegations that Russia poisoned a former spy, Sergei Skripal, in the UK earlier this month using a form of nerve gas.0 -
His legitimacy is not in question, even if his behaviour is.glw said:
When it's all over the number of votes Trump got will be one of the least important aspects of his legitimacy. I also suspect there will be a hell of lot fewer people who recall voting for him.geoffw said:He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.
0 -
My favourite conspiracy theory on this.
This is all a false flag attack by Mrs May, her next lie will be say Russia interference had a material impact on the EU referendum which will give her the excuse to cancel Brexit.
Britain becoming a vassal state is part of Mrs May’s nefarious plot.
It’s no accident this took place so close to Porton Down.
God bless deluded Leavers and Corbynites.0 -
Mr. Eagles, it's not legitimate to complain about how poisonous politics is (they're calling us traitors!) one moment and the next comparing 52% of the country to apologists for attempted murder and the use of chemical weaponry on UK soil.
I'm sure you don't mean it seriously. But that doesn't mean it's clever.0 -
If local elections follow the general election pattern, one should expect Conservative gains in the West Midlands, for similar reasons.MarqueeMark said:
But the factor that makes a read across from Miliband's win is that London seems to be the one place where resentment of Brexit really is still bending previous voting patterns out of shape.HYUFD said:
Yes but even Ed Miliband won London by a comfortable double figure margin in 2014 and by 20 London boroughs to the Tories 9 so it is really just a case of the Tories trying to save the furniture in London. Outside London the Tories could well win in May, especially as it is only English districts votingMarqueeMark said:
Outside London maybe. I can't see anything other than London being very bad for the Tories.HYUFD said:
Will they? Labour led most polls before the May 2014 local elections and won them by 2%.SirNorfolkPassmore said:I strongly disagree with Corbyn's line but very much doubt this will affect the polling markedly. There's a Trump element here - to a large extent, the fact that the "political and media establishment" has attacked Corbyn for his knee-jerk reaction is likely to galvanise his support... even though the establishment are right on this one.
Labour will clearly do very well in May. 2014 was a relatively poor year for Miliband's Labour - 31% and 2% lead. Labour will far exceed that this year, particularly given London is a large voting area and is good for Corbyn.
Now the Tories are ahead in most polls after the Russian affair and it is not impossible Labour could even lose seats to the Tories
There are plenty of Londoners who clearly demonstrate a belief that their views are for more important, far better informed than the pig-shit thickoes who live beyond the M25 in deepest, darkest Brexitland.0 -
He’s just turned the trolling dial to 11.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's not legitimate to complain about how poisonous politics is (they're calling us traitors!) one moment and the next comparing 52% of the country to apologists for attempted murder and the use of chemical weaponry on UK soil.
I'm sure you don't mean it seriously. But that doesn't mean it's clever.
No-one can troll like TSE does.0 -
Balls.TheJezziah said:
The patriotic march behind the government in lock step is the only way of course...basicbridge said:
His approach isn’t “careful now”. It is “anyone but Britain or the west” - a stance from which he has not deviated since his election in 1983.Tykejohnno said:
I said that last week.Jonathan said:I would not be surprised if there isn't quiet support for Corbyn's "careful now" approach .
The usual suspects on the Left support this, but the “evidence” to date is that amongst the wider public this has been a well deserved own goal by Corbyn.
Anti Western hate monger would have had us not go to Iraq such is his hate for Britain.
I realise it may not occur to some on PB but not everyone agrees our foreign policy is pro Britain. We would help ourselves by taking a more neutral stance on Israel Palestine. The idea that opposing the occupation and slaughter of the Palestinians is anti British or anti Western is ridiculous.
I can't think of anything more I would like to associate with Britain than sticking up for the beaten and the oppressed.
Also sticking up for the N. Irish Catholics is actually sticking up for our fellow countrymen. I realise this again is something of a minority view but until such a date as N. Ireland joins with Ireland and leaves the rest of us they are just as much our fellow countrymen as a protestant Englishman or an Atheist Scot.
Also not sure about this too close to Russia nonsense to be honest, Corbyn is the wrong kind of lefty to be a fan of the Soviet Union and he hasn't really given much hint of loving Putin either...
Corbyn supports every cause except his own country’s.
Supporting the IRA was not supporting “N. Irish Catholics” many of whom were also murdered by the IRA. It is a disgrace to make your claim and an insult to the hundreds of innocent people murdered by those thugs.
I opposed the Iraq war because I thought it was a mistake. Corbyn opposed it because he has opposed every western intervention of any sort, anywhere in the world this entire life.0 -
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.0 -
I said it was a deluded conspiracy theory by a Leaver.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's not legitimate to complain about how poisonous politics is (they're calling us traitors!) one moment and the next comparing 52% of the country to apologists for attempted murder and the use of chemical weaponry on UK soil.
I'm sure you don't mean it seriously. But that doesn't mean it's clever.
It just amused me that we have people in this country that think the Prime Minister can order a NBC attack on British soil for her electoral benefit, just like some Corbynites do.0 -
Amongst a large number of Russians, Putin’s actions will be very popular.Sean_F said:
More likely they think he did do it, and they approve.Roger said:
I would imagine there are at least as many Russians who believe Putin didn't do it as British who believe he did. Do we think they are stupider than we are or just brainwashed?Gardenwalker said:
But what doesn’t make sense?Roger said:
I'm not looking for an alternative explanation just wanting the explanation we have to make sense. Even a little bit of sense. As soon as the police fill in the blanks we can all let looseMarqueeMark said:
But what comes across, Roger, is a burning desire for there to BE an alternative explanation, against the massive weight of evidence, history and common sense. To seek to find an alternative explanation requires special pleading heaped on special pleading, with a nice crispy side-order of special pleading. It's also the thin veneer being used by those who caused these events to protect them from the outright condemnation they deserve.Roger said:I'm not accusing May of lying. I'm sure she believes that's what happened. I just think there may be an alternative explanation. Until we know all the facts or even enough to make a theory plausible we should hold our fire.
We ask our juries to convict not on the basis of absolute knowledge, but of beyond reasonable doubt. You are trying to get an acquittal on the basis of unreasonble doubt. Knock it off.
I find it interesting that turnout in the Russian election was only 60%. Once you get less than that, questions may be raised about strength of support.
The attempted Skripal hit - or more accurately, the necessary Western response, allows Putin to rally his “base”. And there’s one less ex-spy walking the streets which is perhaps convenient for Putin in other respects.0 -
True but many wealthy West Londoners are also afraid of the hard Left taxing them to the hiltMarqueeMark said:
But the factor that makes a read across from Miliband's win is that London seems to be the one place where resentment of Brexit really is still bending previous voting patterns out of shape.HYUFD said:
Yes but even Ed Miliband won London by a comfortable double figure margin in 2014 and by 20 London boroughs to the Tories 9 so it is really just a case of the Tories trying to save the furniture in London. Outside London the Tories could well win in May, especially as it is only English districts votingMarqueeMark said:
Outside London maybe. I can't see anything other than London being very bad for the Tories.HYUFD said:
Will they? Labour led most polls before the May 2014 local elections and won them by 2%.SirNorfolkPassmore said:I strongly disagree with Corbyn's line but very much doubt this will affect the polling markedly. There's a Trump element here - to a large extent, the fact that the "political and media establishment" has attacked Corbyn for his knee-jerk reaction is likely to galvanise his support... even though the establishment are right on this one.
Labour will clearly do very well in May. 2014 was a relatively poor year for Miliband's Labour - 31% and 2% lead. Labour will far exceed that this year, particularly given London is a large voting area and is good for Corbyn.
Now the Tories are ahead in most polls after the Russian affair and it is not impossible Labour could even lose seats to the Tories
There are plenty of Londoners who clearly demonstrate a belief that their views are for more important, far better informed than the pig-shit thickoes who live beyond the M25 in deepest, darkest Brexitland.0 -
Mr. Royale, yeah, I get it. And when someone gets annoyed, he'll be annoyed they call someone like Grieve a traitor.0
-
Though still we are in a far better position than 50 years ago when Eastern Europe, most of Latin America and Africa as well of course ad Russia and China and Turkey were under dictatorshipsCasino_Royale said:
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.0 -
Yup.Casino_Royale said:
Amongst a large number of Russians, Putin’s actions will be very popular.Sean_F said:
More likely they think he did do it, and they approve.Roger said:
I would imagine there are at least as many Russians who believe Putin didn't do it as British who believe he did. Do we think they are stupider than we are or just brainwashed?Gardenwalker said:
But what doesn’t make sense?Roger said:
I'm not looking for an alternative explanation just wanting the explanation we have to make sense. Even a little bit of sense. As soon as the police fill in the blanks we can all let looseMarqueeMark said:
But what comes across, Roger, is a burning desire for there to BE an alternative explanation, against the massive weight of evidence, history and common sense. To seek to find an alternative explanation requires special pleading heaped on special pleading, with a nice crispy side-order of special pleading. It's also the thin veneer being used by those who caused these events to protect them from the outright condemnation they deserve.Roger said:I'm not accusing May of lying. I'm sure she believes that's what happened. I just think there may be an alternative explanation. Until we know all the facts or even enough to make a theory plausible we should hold our fire.
We ask our juries to convict not on the basis of absolute knowledge, but of beyond reasonable doubt. You are trying to get an acquittal on the basis of unreasonble doubt. Knock it off.
I find it interesting that turnout in the Russian election was only 60%. Once you get less than that, questions may be raised about strength of support.
The attempted Skripal hit - or more accurately, the necessary Western response, allows Putin to rally his “base”. And there’s one less ex-spy walking the streets which is perhaps convenient for Putin in other respects.
Ramón Mercader was awarded the Order of Lenin to popular acclaim, and he’s still revered to this day.
Russians really don’t like traitors/betrayers.
A bit like Mark Reckless and myself only with more polonium.0 -
Balls.
Corbyn supports every cause except his own country’s.
Supporting the IRA was not supporting “N. Irish Catholics” many of whom were also murdered by the IRA. It is a disgrace to make your claim and an insult to the hundreds of innocent people murdered by those thugs.
................................................
Supporting Sinn Fein having a voice was supporting the people they represent. Where do you think they sprung up from? I'll give you a clue it wasn't foreigners or Muslims.
The violence was partially caused by denying these people a voice to begin with, your ideal would have seen many more killed. Thankfully some politicians saw past petty blood feud and realised they needed to treat all communities fairly.
0 -
There's an interesting book by Sean O'Callaghan on the troubles called 'The Informer.'. He became an informer against the IRA after being in their higher echelons. Like all autobiographies, it's a little self-serving, but he claims the IRA was always split between the old-fashioned Irish nationalists - the De Valera sort - and the Marxist, political sort who were likely to be atheist.
IRA informers also lead a precarious life Shades of Putin.
0 -
I will never forgive Boris Johnson and Michael Gove for the useful idiocy of rhetoric like this. The script may as well have come from the Kremlin.Casino_Royale said:
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.
For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning of something potentially even more exciting - the democratic liberation of a whole Continent.
If we vote to leave we will have - in the words of a former British Prime Minister - saved our country by our exertions and Europe by our example.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-george-osborne-live/0 -
Brexiteers are good people, so suggesting negative intent on their behalf is scandalous. Those evil Britain hating lefties on the other hand...TheScreamingEagles said:
I said it was a deluded conspiracy theory by a Leaver.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's not legitimate to complain about how poisonous politics is (they're calling us traitors!) one moment and the next comparing 52% of the country to apologists for attempted murder and the use of chemical weaponry on UK soil.
I'm sure you don't mean it seriously. But that doesn't mean it's clever.
It just amused me that we have people in this country that think the Prime Minister can order a NBC attack on British soil for her electoral benefit, just like some Corbynites do.0 -
'More' polonium? Should Reckless be worried?TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup.Casino_Royale said:
Amongst a large number of Russians, Putin’s actions will be very popular.Sean_F said:
More likely they think he did do it, and they approve.Roger said:
I would imagine there are at least as many Russians who believe Putin didn't do it as British who believe he did. Do we think they are stupider than we are or just brainwashed?Gardenwalker said:
But what doesn’t make sense?Roger said:
I'm not looking for an alternative explanation just wanting the explanation we have to make sense. Even a little bit of sense. As soon as the police fill in the blanks we can all let looseMarqueeMark said:
But what comes across, Roger, is a burning desire for there to BE an alternative explanation, against the massive weight of evidence, history and common sense. To seek to find an alternative explanation requires special pleading heaped on special pleading, with a nice crispy side-order of special pleading. It's also the thin veneer being used by those who caused these events to protect them from the outright condemnation they deserve.Roger said:I'm not accusing May of lying. I'm sure she believes that's what happened. I just think there may be an alternative explanation. Until we know all the facts or even enough to make a theory plausible we should hold our fire.
We ask our juries to convict not on the basis of absolute knowledge, but of beyond reasonable doubt. You are trying to get an acquittal on the basis of unreasonble doubt. Knock it off.
I find it interesting that turnout in the Russian election was only 60%. Once you get less than that, questions may be raised about strength of support.
The attempted Skripal hit - or more accurately, the necessary Western response, allows Putin to rally his “base”. And there’s one less ex-spy walking the streets which is perhaps convenient for Putin in other respects.
Ramón Mercader was awarded the Order of Lenin to popular acclaim, and he’s still revered to this day.
Russians really don’t like traitors/betrayers.
A bit like Mark Reckless and myself only with more polonium.0 -
On a lighter note:
https://twitter.com/byzantinepower/status/9756498153285877760 -
Corbyn conferred legitimacy as a political weapon. He is both a disgrace and an idiot.TheJezziah said:Balls.
Corbyn supports every cause except his own country’s.
Supporting the IRA was not supporting “N. Irish Catholics” many of whom were also murdered by the IRA. It is a disgrace to make your claim and an insult to the hundreds of innocent people murdered by those thugs.
................................................
Supporting Sinn Fein having a voice was supporting the people they represent. Where do you think they sprung up from? I'll give you a clue it wasn't foreigners or Muslims.
The violence was partially caused by denying these people a voice to begin with, your ideal would have seen many more killed. Thankfully some politicians saw past petty blood feud and realised they needed to treat all communities fairly.
As for your "foreigners or muslims" comment. what a cheap, facile, disgraceful comment. Why has the Left in this country become so repulsive?0 -
Solid result for Putin with > 50% of the potential electorate it looks like. I presume the slight inflation of his total over the exit poll (76 v 74%) is due to officials 'making sure' he won.
0 -
I was tempted to put mostly Catholics, figured there would only be a small number though. I suppose it was more communities that tended to have a religious belief rather than just monolithic communities of one or the other (well in the non split areas anyway)CD13 said:
There's an interesting book by Sean O'Callaghan on the troubles called 'The Informer.'. He became an informer against the IRA after being in their higher echelons. Like all autobiographies, it's a little self-serving, but he claims the IRA was always split between the old-fashioned Irish nationalists - the De Valera sort - and the Marxist, political sort who were likely to be atheist.
IRA informers also lead a precarious life Shades of Putin.0 -
There are two pieces of information that we don't have but presumably the PM does have.
1. How was the nerve agent administered? If it was in say a glass ampule brought in a padded jewellery case then it could be administered by an amateur by eg putting it in the car under a pedal or beyond the handbrake. If it was brought in in binary form then it would need a professional.
2. What was the nature of the work he was involved in? Did it impact the Russian state? Did it impact mafia types?
The answer to these questions affects the probability that it was a Russian state action or an aggrieved amateur.
In the absence of this information my estimate is that it is at least 95% certain that it was the Russian state.0 -
Nah. I made my peace with Mark Reckless in the early hours of the 8th of May 2015.Theuniondivvie said:
'More' polonium? Should Reckless be worried?TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup.Casino_Royale said:
Amongst a large number of Russians, Putin’s actions will be very popular.Sean_F said:
More likely they think he did do it, and they approve.Roger said:
I would imagine there are at least as many Russians who believe Putin didn't do it as British who believe he did. Do we think they are stupider than we are or just brainwashed?Gardenwalker said:
But what doesn’t make sense?Roger said:
I'm not looking for an alternative explanation just wanting the explanation we have to make sense. Even a little bit of sense. As soon as the police fill in the blanks we can all let looseMarqueeMark said:
But what comes across, Roger, is a burning desire for there to BE an alternative explanation, against the massive weight of evidence, history and common sense. To seek to find an alternative explanation requires special pleading heaped on special pleading, with a nice crispy side-order of special pleading. It's also the thin veneer being used by those who caused these events to protect them from the outright condemnation they deserve.Roger said:I'm not accusing May of lying. I'm sure she believes that's what happened. I just think there may be an alternative explanation. Until we know all the facts or even enough to make a theory plausible we should hold our fire.
We ask our juries to convict not on the basis of absolute knowledge, but of beyond reasonable doubt. You are trying to get an acquittal on the basis of unreasonble doubt. Knock it off.
I find it interesting that turnout in the Russian election was only 60%. Once you get less than that, questions may be raised about strength of support.
The attempted Skripal hit - or more accurately, the necessary Western response, allows Putin to rally his “base”. And there’s one less ex-spy walking the streets which is perhaps convenient for Putin in other respects.
Ramón Mercader was awarded the Order of Lenin to popular acclaim, and he’s still revered to this day.
Russians really don’t like traitors/betrayers.
A bit like Mark Reckless and myself only with more polonium.
He’s responsible for the result that made me the most happy on a general election night in my lifetime.0 -
I’ll take “Small yet strong”.Morris_Dancer said:On a lighter note:
https://twitter.com/byzantinepower/status/975649815328587776
Are Turkey and Poland notably anti-China?0 -
-
Feel sort of sorry for Germany there...Gardenwalker said:
I’ll take “Small yet strong”.Morris_Dancer said:On a lighter note:
https://twitter.com/byzantinepower/status/975649815328587776
Are Turkey and Poland notably anti-China?
The Spain one is funny, weak small nation next door, why don't they take it!
I also like to think the Swiss one is much the same as it would be for us.
@basicbridge
Look in the mirror with your supports enemies of the West rhetoric.0 -
They love a strong man before whom they can abase themselves.williamglenn said:
Or a weak woman they can squeeze for a billion.0 -
I cannot say about Poland, but Turkey has problems with the way China's handling their Turkic dissidents.Gardenwalker said:
I’ll take “Small yet strong”.Morris_Dancer said:On a lighter note:
https://twitter.com/byzantinepower/status/975649815328587776
Are Turkey and Poland notably anti-China?
It led to stupidity like Turkish nationalists beating up Korean tourists, thinking they were Chinese.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/koreans-and-chinese-both-have-slanted-eyes-turkeys-nationalist-leader-says-over-attacks-on-tourists-851340 -
Another thing that the DUP have in common with Corbyn.williamglenn said:0 -
You also have to factor in the Litvinenko murder (although 'murder' does not do it justice); the Russian state also has form in this sort of attack.Barnesian said:There are two pieces of information that we don't have but presumably the PM does have.
1. How was the nerve agent administered? If it was in say a glass ampule brought in a padded jewellery case then it could be administered by an amateur by eg putting it in the car under a pedal or beyond the handbrake. If it was brought in in binary form then it would need a professional.
2. What was the nature of the work he was involved in? Did it impact the Russian state? Did it impact mafia types?
The answer to these questions affects the probability that it was a Russian state action or an aggrieved amateur.
In the absence of this information my estimate is that it is at least 95% certain that it was the Russian state.0 -
Mr. Walker, not sure about Turkey/Poland. Interesting Albania comment, as it was the only country during Mao's early days that maintained friendly diplomatic relations with China.0
-
Known unknowns.Barnesian said:There are two pieces of information that we don't have but presumably the PM does have.
1. How was the nerve agent administered? If it was in say a glass ampule brought in a padded jewellery case then it could be administered by an amateur by eg putting it in the car under a pedal or beyond the handbrake. If it was brought in in binary form then it would need a professional.
2. What was the nature of the work he was involved in? Did it impact the Russian state? Did it impact mafia types?
The answer to these questions affects the probability that it was a Russian state action or an aggrieved amateur.
In the absence of this information my estimate is that it is at least 95% certain that it was the Russian state.
But what about the unknown unknowns?0 -
It's notable that both the official turnout and Putin's share have increased since close-of-poll (Putin's share as measured against exit polls - which is itself interesting as in a country like Russia, you'd expect exit polls to overstate the status quo).Pulpstar said:Solid result for Putin with > 50% of the potential electorate it looks like. I presume the slight inflation of his total over the exit poll (76 v 74%) is due to officials 'making sure' he won.
Puts into context the criticisms that Leave or the Tories or whoever only won some small(ish) proportion of the electorate (or even, ludicrously, population).
The Russian state:
1. Rigged the ballot paper, so Putin's main rival didn't stand;
2. Rigged the election campaign, giving Putin far more, and more favourable, coverage than his rivals;
3. Apparently interfered in the vote-casting process, intimidating state employees to turn out and vote for the president, for example, as well as there being reported cases of ballot-box stuffing;
4. May have interfered with the vote-counting process given the rise in the reported turnout *after* polls closed.
And yet despite all that, he was still credited with the support of only just over half the electorate.0 -
Thanks.JosiasJessop said:
I cannot say about Poland, but Turkey has problems with the way China's handling their Turkic dissidents.Gardenwalker said:
I’ll take “Small yet strong”.Morris_Dancer said:On a lighter note:
https://twitter.com/byzantinepower/status/975649815328587776
Are Turkey and Poland notably anti-China?
It led to stupidity like Turkish nationalists beating up Korean tourists, thinking they were Chinese.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/koreans-and-chinese-both-have-slanted-eyes-turkeys-nationalist-leader-says-over-attacks-on-tourists-85134
Another interesting example of China’s ongoing struggle to exercise soft power with any of its neighbours (Turkey only a neighbour in the loosest sense of course).0 -
That's in the context of a GE though. What I think we will find is that when the dust has settled on the May 2018 local elections, whatever the result, Labour will turn out to have overachieved against its performance at the subsequent GE. In local elections people are not faced with the choice of whether or not to swallow their fears over the potential impact of a hard Left Corbyn-led government on their finances.HYUFD said:
True but many wealthy West Londoners are also afraid of the hard Left taxing them to the hiltMarqueeMark said:
But the factor that makes a read across from Miliband's win is that London seems to be the one place where resentment of Brexit really is still bending previous voting patterns out of shape.HYUFD said:
Yes but even Ed Miliband won London by a comfortable double figure margin in 2014 and by 20 London boroughs to the Tories 9 so it is really just a case of the Tories trying to save the furniture in London. Outside London the Tories could well win in May, especially as it is only English districts votingMarqueeMark said:
Outside London maybe. I can't see anything other than London being very bad for the Tories.HYUFD said:
Will they? Labour led most polls before the May 2014 local elections and won them by 2%.SirNorfolkPassmore said:I strongly disagree with Corbyn's line but very much doubt this will affect the polling markedly. There's a Trump element here - to a large extent, the fact that the "political and media establishment" has attacked Corbyn for his knee-jerk reaction is likely to galvanise his support... even though the establishment are right on this one.
Labour will clearly do very well in May. 2014 was a relatively poor year for Miliband's Labour - 31% and 2% lead. Labour will far exceed that this year, particularly given London is a large voting area and is good for Corbyn.
Now the Tories are ahead in most polls after the Russian affair and it is not impossible Labour could even lose seats to the Tories
There are plenty of Londoners who clearly demonstrate a belief that their views are for more important, far better informed than the pig-shit thickoes who live beyond the M25 in deepest, darkest Brexitland.0 -
I have factored that in - hence 95%+.JosiasJessop said:
You also have to factor in the Litvinenko murder (although 'murder' does not do it justice); the Russian state also has form in this sort of attack.Barnesian said:There are two pieces of information that we don't have but presumably the PM does have.
1. How was the nerve agent administered? If it was in say a glass ampule brought in a padded jewellery case then it could be administered by an amateur by eg putting it in the car under a pedal or beyond the handbrake. If it was brought in in binary form then it would need a professional.
2. What was the nature of the work he was involved in? Did it impact the Russian state? Did it impact mafia types?
The answer to these questions affects the probability that it was a Russian state action or an aggrieved amateur.
In the absence of this information my estimate is that it is at least 95% certain that it was the Russian state.
It is opportunity/means plus motive plus track record/character.
They all point to Russian state. I'm also interested in these three factors with regard to mafia types particularly means and motive.0 -
Maybe they are hoping the Tories can get them in touch with some of Putin's wealthy friends...TheScreamingEagles said:
Another thing that the DUP have in common with Corbyn.williamglenn said:0 -
If the attack was not sanctioned by Putin, then the people who did it - even mafia types - will not be alive for long. It'd be madness for them to do it without at least the tacit approval of the state.Barnesian said:
I have factored that in - hence 95%+.JosiasJessop said:
You also have to factor in the Litvinenko murder (although 'murder' does not do it justice); the Russian state also has form in this sort of attack.Barnesian said:There are two pieces of information that we don't have but presumably the PM does have.
1. How was the nerve agent administered? If it was in say a glass ampule brought in a padded jewellery case then it could be administered by an amateur by eg putting it in the car under a pedal or beyond the handbrake. If it was brought in in binary form then it would need a professional.
2. What was the nature of the work he was involved in? Did it impact the Russian state? Did it impact mafia types?
The answer to these questions affects the probability that it was a Russian state action or an aggrieved amateur.
In the absence of this information my estimate is that it is at least 95% certain that it was the Russian state.
It is opportunity/means plus motive plus track record/character.
They all point to Russian state. I'm also interested in these three factors with regard to mafia types particularly means and motive.0 -
That was fair comment by Boris and Gove.williamglenn said:
I will never forgive Boris Johnson and Michael Gove for the useful idiocy of rhetoric like this. The script may as well have come from the Kremlin.Casino_Royale said:
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.
For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning of something potentially even more exciting - the democratic liberation of a whole Continent.
If we vote to leave we will have - in the words of a former British Prime Minister - saved our country by our exertions and Europe by our example.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-george-osborne-live/
The European Union, as an institution, only respects democracy when it agrees with its preconceived world view. The UK now has the opportunity to show there’s a different way, for a more democratic Europe.0 -
"Mafia types" is a red-herring in the Russian context where gangsters quite routinely kill people who are critics of the government. You can be responsible for a murder without pulling the trigger.JosiasJessop said:If the attack was not sanctioned by Putin, then the people who did it - even mafia types - will not be alive for long. It'd be madness for them to do it without at least the tacit approval of the state.
0 -
Reading between the lines: please don't turn our gas off President Putin, Sir, PLEEEEEEASE......Gardenwalker said:https://euobserver.com/foreign/141362
Heiko Maas, the German foreign minister, has described Russia as a "difficult partner", but said the UK poisoning was a "bilateral" issue, indicating that Britain can count on little support from the EU.
Maas spoke ahead of a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels on Monday (19 March), one day after Russian leader Vladimir Putin secured six more years in power and in the wake of British allegations that Russia poisoned a former spy, Sergei Skripal, in the UK earlier this month using a form of nerve gas.0 -
Haven’t they been in touch already? Where did that big donation come from for Leave spending on the mainland?TheJezziah said:
Maybe they are hoping the Tories can get them in touch with some of Putin's wealthy friends...TheScreamingEagles said:
Another thing that the DUP have in common with Corbyn.williamglenn said:
Edit Sp. FFS again.0 -
I’d say there’s been a retreat since the high water mark of democracy since about 15 years ago.HYUFD said:
Though still we are in a far better position than 50 years ago when Eastern Europe, most of Latin America and Africa as well of course ad Russia and China and Turkey were under dictatorshipsCasino_Royale said:
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.0 -
Better than supporting murder as a political weapon, as Corbyn did for the IRA.TheJezziah said:
Maybe they are hoping the Tories can get them in touch with some of Putin's wealthy friends...TheScreamingEagles said:
Another thing that the DUP have in common with Corbyn.williamglenn said:
Or quietly supporting Putin's murderous war in Syria. again as Corbyn has done.
0 -
Who is behind the NordStream project? Clue: a certain former Bundeskanzler.MarqueeMark said:
Reading between the lines: please don't turn our gas off President Putin, Sir, PLEEEEEEASE......Gardenwalker said:https://euobserver.com/foreign/141362
Heiko Maas, the German foreign minister, has described Russia as a "difficult partner", but said the UK poisoning was a "bilateral" issue, indicating that Britain can count on little support from the EU.
Maas spoke ahead of a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels on Monday (19 March), one day after Russian leader Vladimir Putin secured six more years in power and in the wake of British allegations that Russia poisoned a former spy, Sergei Skripal, in the UK earlier this month using a form of nerve gas.
0 -
Re: Chinese perceptions of Europe.
The elephant-in-the-room has been missed: Russia's eastern border. Maybe Chinese mentality sees the Turkic/Mongol lands as part of their sphere (or the map is too cut).0 -
Boris has got over that whole punishment beating thing then.JonathanD said:0 -
Oh what a gift the giftie gie us...Casino_Royale said:
That was fair comment by Boris and Gove.
The European Union, as an institution, only respects democracy when it agrees with its preconceived world view. The UK now has the opportunity to show there’s a different way, for a more democratic Europe.0 -
It's not wholly inconsistent. The Third Reich also took a hard line on Russia.JonathanD said:0 -
Like the 2012 election, I would say that in many and varying forms, Putin has inflated his vote share by 10%.Pulpstar said:Solid result for Putin with > 50% of the potential electorate it looks like. I presume the slight inflation of his total over the exit poll (76 v 74%) is due to officials 'making sure' he won.
Which would still have handed him a comfortable victory.0 -
Eventually!david_herdson said:
It's not wholly inconsistent. The Third Reich also took a hard line on Russia.JonathanD said:0 -
Not really. That wall was there for a reason. Though I think I remember reading that the Chinese are settling parts of Siberia in ways not dissimilar to what's happening in Africa - settlements of Chinese labourers working in mineral extraction for sale back to China. it's something of a dilemma for Moscow, which needs to sell but can't afford China to gain too much of a foothold (unlike in Africa, where the classic process of heavy investment / settlement / military installations is well underway).Rebourne_Fluffy said:Re: Chinese perceptions of Europe.
The elephant-in-the-room has been missed: Russia's eastern border. Maybe Chinese mentality sees the Turkic/Mongol lands as part of their sphere (or the map is too cut).0 -
Comfortable is not enough. Crushing is what he wants.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Like the 2012 election, I would say that in many and varying forms, Putin has inflated his vote share by 10%.Pulpstar said:Solid result for Putin with > 50% of the potential electorate it looks like. I presume the slight inflation of his total over the exit poll (76 v 74%) is due to officials 'making sure' he won.
Which would still have handed him a comfortable victory.
0 -
Utterly bonkers.Casino_Royale said:
That was fair comment by Boris and Gove.williamglenn said:
I will never forgive Boris Johnson and Michael Gove for the useful idiocy of rhetoric like this. The script may as well have come from the Kremlin.Casino_Royale said:
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.
For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning of something potentially even more exciting - the democratic liberation of a whole Continent.
If we vote to leave we will have - in the words of a former British Prime Minister - saved our country by our exertions and Europe by our example.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-george-osborne-live/
The European Union, as an institution, only respects democracy when it agrees with its preconceived world view. The UK now has the opportunity to show there’s a different way, for a more democratic Europe.
Edit: if the U.K. wants to be a democratic shining light, we have a little work to do. We are currently 14th in the league table (EIU Democracy Index), which is A- rather than A+.
There are 7 EU countries ahead of us who are somehow judged to have better functioning democracies despite struggling under the EU yoke...
0 -
Let's be honest. There's a fuss in Britain because the attack happened in Britain.MarqueeMark said:
Reading between the lines: please don't turn our gas off President Putin, Sir, PLEEEEEEASE......Gardenwalker said:https://euobserver.com/foreign/141362
Heiko Maas, the German foreign minister, has described Russia as a "difficult partner", but said the UK poisoning was a "bilateral" issue, indicating that Britain can count on little support from the EU.
Maas spoke ahead of a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels on Monday (19 March), one day after Russian leader Vladimir Putin secured six more years in power and in the wake of British allegations that Russia poisoned a former spy, Sergei Skripal, in the UK earlier this month using a form of nerve gas.
Had an ex-Russian spy, who defected to Romania, been poisoned in Romania, I doubt there'd be much interest in Britain in taking serious measures against Moscow.0 -
I don't think that is unfair though. Part of the point of the attack was to make a statement.david_herdson said:
Let's be honest. There's a fuss in Britain because the attack happened in Britain.MarqueeMark said:
Reading between the lines: please don't turn our gas off President Putin, Sir, PLEEEEEEASE......Gardenwalker said:https://euobserver.com/foreign/141362
Heiko Maas, the German foreign minister, has described Russia as a "difficult partner", but said the UK poisoning was a "bilateral" issue, indicating that Britain can count on little support from the EU.
Maas spoke ahead of a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels on Monday (19 March), one day after Russian leader Vladimir Putin secured six more years in power and in the wake of British allegations that Russia poisoned a former spy, Sergei Skripal, in the UK earlier this month using a form of nerve gas.
Had an ex-Russian spy, who defected to Romania, been poisoned in Romania, I doubt there'd be much interest in Britain in taking serious measures against Moscow.0 -
I think this one has more purchase because of the use of a nerve agent.david_herdson said:
Let's be honest. There's a fuss in Britain because the attack happened in Britain.MarqueeMark said:
Reading between the lines: please don't turn our gas off President Putin, Sir, PLEEEEEEASE......Gardenwalker said:https://euobserver.com/foreign/141362
Heiko Maas, the German foreign minister, has described Russia as a "difficult partner", but said the UK poisoning was a "bilateral" issue, indicating that Britain can count on little support from the EU.
Maas spoke ahead of a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels on Monday (19 March), one day after Russian leader Vladimir Putin secured six more years in power and in the wake of British allegations that Russia poisoned a former spy, Sergei Skripal, in the UK earlier this month using a form of nerve gas.
Had an ex-Russian spy, who defected to Romania, been poisoned in Romania, I doubt there'd be much interest in Britain in taking serious measures against Moscow.
0 -
No, there’s nothing bonkers about it at all. It’s perfectly possible for there to be a looser European association of sovereign nation states that do not pursue ever closer union, and respect the wishes of their electorates, but retain regional cooperation.Gardenwalker said:
Utterly bonkers.Casino_Royale said:
That was fair comment by Boris and Gove.williamglenn said:
I will never forgive Boris Johnson and Michael Gove for the useful idiocy of rhetoric like this. The script may as well have come from the Kremlin.Casino_Royale said:
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.
For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning of something potentially even more exciting - the democratic liberation of a whole Continent.
If we vote to leave we will have - in the words of a former British Prime Minister - saved our country by our exertions and Europe by our example.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-george-osborne-live/
The European Union, as an institution, only respects democracy when it agrees with its preconceived world view. The UK now has the opportunity to show there’s a different way, for a more democratic Europe.
But, that’s why the EU is so worried about Brexit being seen to be a success.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t make them mad.0 -
A few hundred thousand to secure Brexit is small time, they want the Tories AAA Russians that can pay that for a 'game of Tennis'OldKingCole said:
Haven’t they been in touch already? Where did that big donation come from for Leave spending on the mainland?TheJezziah said:
Maybe they are hoping the Tories can get them in touch with some of Putin's wealthy friends...TheScreamingEagles said:
Another thing that the DUP have in common with Corbyn.williamglenn said:
Edit Sp. FFS again.0 -
You seem to be agreeing with the idea that Brexit may lead to the “democratic liberation of the continent”.Casino_Royale said:
No, there’s nothing bonkers about it at all. It’s perfectly possible for there to be a looser European association of sovereign nation states that do not pursue ever closer union, and respect the wishes of their electorates, but retain regional cooperation.Gardenwalker said:
Utterly bonkers.Casino_Royale said:
That was fair comment by Boris and Gove.williamglenn said:
I will never forgive Boris Johnson and Michael Gove for the useful idiocy of rhetoric like this. The script may as well have come from the Kremlin.Casino_Royale said:
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.
For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-george-osborne-live/
The European Union, as an institution, only respects democracy when it agrees with its preconceived world view. The UK now has the opportunity to show there’s a different way, for a more democratic Europe.
But, that’s why the EU is so worried about Brexit being seen to be a success.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t make them mad.
Yes, that’s bonkers.0 -
Blimey, are there really grown-up people trying to claim Russia wasn't responsible?
How on earth can anyone maintain that with a straight face? You could argue that it's not proven that Russia was responsible (although that does involve some fairly heroic assumptions), were it not for the Russian government's sneering reaction to the incident, which puts their guilt beyond any doubt. If they were acting in good faith, their reaction would have been completely different.
@MarqueeMark had it right upthread: the curious feature here is why some people are so desperate for there to be an alternative explanation. Those people should take a long hard look at their own motives.0 -
Were the “democratic liberation of the continent” required (camel swallowed, gnat up next), it will probably not be launched through a movement built on xenophobic lies.Gardenwalker said:
You seem to be agreeing with the idea that Brexit may lead to the “democratic liberation of the continent”.
Yes, that’s bonkers.0 -
Yet your alternative vision is a union of nations forged into a single unitary state. It is utterly hypocritical and self-deluded.Casino_Royale said:
No, there’s nothing bonkers about it at all. It’s perfectly possible for there to be a looser European association of sovereign nation states that do not pursue ever closer union, and respect the wishes of their electorates, but retain regional cooperation.Gardenwalker said:
Utterly bonkers.Casino_Royale said:
That was fair comment by Boris and Gove.williamglenn said:I will never forgive Boris Johnson and Michael Gove for the useful idiocy of rhetoric like this. The script may as well have come from the Kremlin.
For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning of something potentially even more exciting - the democratic liberation of a whole Continent.
If we vote to leave we will have - in the words of a former British Prime Minister - saved our country by our exertions and Europe by our example.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-george-osborne-live/
The European Union, as an institution, only respects democracy when it agrees with its preconceived world view. The UK now has the opportunity to show there’s a different way, for a more democratic Europe.
But, that’s why the EU is so worried about Brexit being seen to be a success.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t make them mad.
Brexit belongs in the dustbin of history.0 -
Please look at a map: In which countries does the 'Great Wall' exist? Does it follow the Amur river or the borders of Outer-Mongolia?david_herdson said:
Not really. That wall was there for a reason. Though I think I remember reading that the Chinese are settling parts of Siberia in ways not dissimilar to what's happening in Africa - settlements of Chinese labourers working in mineral extraction for sale back to China. it's something of a dilemma for Moscow, which needs to sell but can't afford China to gain too much of a foothold (unlike in Africa, where the classic process of heavy investment / settlement / military installations is well underway).Rebourne_Fluffy said:Re: Chinese perceptions of Europe.
The elephant-in-the-room has been missed: Russia's eastern border. Maybe Chinese mentality sees the Turkic/Mongol lands as part of their sphere (or the map is too cut).0 -
I’m afraid it really isn’t.williamglenn said:
Yet your alternative vision is a union of nations forged into a single unitary state. It is utterly hypocritical and self-deluded.Casino_Royale said:
No, there’s nothing bonkers about it at all. It’s perfectly possible for there to be a looser European association of sovereign nation states that do not pursue ever closer union, and respect the wishes of their electorates, but retain regional cooperation.Gardenwalker said:
Utterly bonkers.Casino_Royale said:
That was fair comment by Boris and Gove.williamglenn said:I will never forgive Boris Johnson and Michael Gove for the useful idiocy of rhetoric like this. The script may as well have come from the Kremlin.
For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning of something potentially even more exciting - the democratic liberation of a whole Continent.
If we vote to leave we will have - in the words of a former British Prime Minister - saved our country by our exertions and Europe by our example.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-george-osborne-live/
The European Union, as an institution, only respects democracy when it agrees with its preconceived world view. The UK now has the opportunity to show there’s a different way, for a more democratic Europe.
But, that’s why the EU is so worried about Brexit being seen to be a success.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t make them mad.
Brexit belongs in the dustbin of history.
Your posts are written more in hope than expectation. When it comes to self-delusion, you’re this sites leading expert.0 -
On the electoral significance, I agree with those who think it won't have a significant effect, provided there are no major new developments. It's astonishing that the public broadly seems to think that Russian state-sponsored thugs using one of the most dangerous substances known to mankind in a British town is not a danger to the UK population, but there we go.0
-
The fact you aren’t able to respond with anything other than cheap shots shows the paucity of your thinking.Gardenwalker said:
You seem to be agreeing with the idea that Brexit may lead to the “democratic liberation of the continent”.Casino_Royale said:
No, there’s nothing bonkers about it at all. It’s perfectly possible for there to be a looser European association of sovereign nation states that do not pursue ever closer union, and respect the wishes of their electorates, but retain regional cooperation.Gardenwalker said:
Utterly bonkers.Casino_Royale said:
That was fair comment by Boris and Gove.williamglenn said:
I will never forgive Boris Johnson and Michael Gove for the useful idiocy of rhetoric like this. The script may as well have come from the Kremlin.Casino_Royale said:
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons fromgeoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.
For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-george-osborne-live/
The European Union, as an institution, only respects democracy when it agrees with its preconceived world view. The UK now has the opportunity to show there’s a different way, for a more democratic Europe.
But, that’s why the EU is so worried about Brexit being seen to be a success.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t make them mad.
Yes, that’s bonkers.
What a shame. I thought you were a better poster than that.0 -
no it isnt.Gardenwalker said:
You seem to be agreeing with the idea that Brexit may lead to the “democratic liberation of the continent”.Casino_Royale said:
No, there’s nothing bonkers about it at all. It’s perfectly possible for there to be a looser European association of sovereign nation states that do not pursue ever closer union, and respect the wishes of their electorates, but retain regional cooperation.Gardenwalker said:
Utterly bonkers.Casino_Royale said:
That was fair comment by Boris and Gove.williamglenn said:
I will never forgive Boris Johnson and Michael Gove for the useful idiocy of rhetoric like this. The script may as well have come from the Kremlin.Casino_Royale said:
There a number of countries, like Russia, Turkey and China, that appear to be moving ever further away from the Western model, not toward it.JosiasJessop said:
To take another example, so did Erdogan in Turkey. Yet he has spent a few years 'moulding' the press, civil service, military and others into a state that favours him. In this, he's learnt lessons from Putin.geoffw said:
He got there with popular approval in an open process. Look at the others.glw said:
Trump is up to his neck in it. You only have to look at the firings and Tweets last week to see he is terrified of being questioned and where Mueller's investigation is going.geoffw said:In 2018 we have already had three egregious democratic stitch-ups: Xi Jinping the new Chinese emperor, Vladimir Putin the new Russian Tsar, and Martin Selmayr the new European bureaucrat-in-chief. President for life is the new game. Compared to these Trump’s accession as POTUS was truly democratic and benign.
Winning power through a popular mandate does not prevent people becoming dictators or monsters.
Beware politicians who want to grab more powers.
There are others within Europe, like Poland and Hungary, that are also starting to qualify their basic freedoms, which is very worrying.
For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/eu-referendum-brexit-michael-gove-george-osborne-live/
The European Union, as an institution, only respects democracy when it agrees with its preconceived world view. The UK now has the opportunity to show there’s a different way, for a more democratic Europe.
But, that’s why the EU is so worried about Brexit being seen to be a success.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t make them mad.
Yes, that’s bonkers.0 -
First ‘order’; to be followed by a big one. Bit doubtful about how Paisleyites would view the Othodox Church though!TheJezziah said:
A few hundred thousand to secure Brexit is small time, they want the Tories AAA Russians that can pay that for a 'game of Tennis'OldKingCole said:
Haven’t they been in touch already? Where did that big donation come from for Leave spending on the mainland?TheJezziah said:
Maybe they are hoping the Tories can get them in touch with some of Putin's wealthy friends...TheScreamingEagles said:
Another thing that the DUP have in common with Corbyn.williamglenn said:
Edit Sp. FFS again.0 -
Interesting polemic from Die Zeit in the context of the Skripal poisoning. The EU's weapon is an idea.
https://twitter.com/zeitonline/status/973992298328535044
It acknowledges the EU has problems, some existential ,and goes onto say:
The EU is not perfect and never can be. It will remain a work in progress forever...
We're not talking about sanitising the EU. We're talking about remembering the strengths of the EU while being aware of its problems and weaknesses. Autocratic powers are causing the EU a lot of difficulties, for sure. But we shouldn't conclude that that the race is already lost or that the EU needs these powers itself [eg dispatch an army].
The Union needs resilience, It will have it when European citizens are convinced of the idea behind it: we commit to cooperation, we set ourselves rules that shape our coexistence. We stick to the rules. We win some; we lose some, but win overall,
Ir is a very simple idea that is difficult to put into practice. It is the idea of a democratic community.
0
