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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Given the appalling weather let’s be thankful that yesterday wasn’t a general election or a referendum
There were 4 by-election taking place local councils yesterday and the results should make interesting reading because these happened on the worst Thursday for the weather across the country in decades.
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Those hoping for a quick trade deal with the US might wish to ponder on this:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/01/trump-steel-tariffs-4321430 -
I'm still waiting to find out if my school is open today. The problem here isn't so much the snow as the wind, which is blowing it everywhere and causing drifts in unexpected places and ice sheets in others. A car drove easily up a hill and then got stuck on a flat, level stretch of road outside my house last night - it took some shifting.0
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5 tests - remind you of anyone?
The last time we had that was designed to prevent a deal with the EU, not to achieve one.
Road to Brexit? More like an arse-of-bag,(eschewing the French there, naturellement).0 -
Isn't he tariff just for the raw product, or are cars going to get tarrif, they have a lot of steel and aluminium.Nigelb said:Those hoping for a quick trade deal with the US might wish to ponder on this:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/01/trump-steel-tariffs-432143
Is trump applying this to all grades, if he wanted to clobber China a 50% tariff on mild would have done the trick..0 -
Good luck and stay safe to all PBers dealing with the winter weather.
Everyone’s favourite cartoonist nails it as usual
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/969274764916396033/photo/10 -
'Who would have thought, for instance, that one of the biggest Premier League matches of the season, Arsenal vs Manchester City, would take place in what appeared to be a half empty Stadium. [sic]'
Anyone who has been following Arsenal's results for the season?0 -
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The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:0 -
Mrs May, those are five platitudes, not five tests.0
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Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:0 -
Mrs May's speech to set out her BREXIT vision .... Hhhmm
Me thinks "should have gone to Specsavers" comes to mind ....
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I don't see any of those insults featuring in that article.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:
It is hard to see anyone uniting behind the flatfooted Theresa.
Here was her on the NI border in June 2016:
https://twitter.com/Open_Britain/status/969191104187953152?ref_src=twcamp^copy|twsrc^android|twgr^copy|twcon^7090|twterm^30 -
Leavers supposedly want Brexit to be a success. It is therefore pretty extraordinary that they are unwilling to take any practical steps to enhance its chances.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:0 -
That comment referred specifically to multinational companies such as Google and Facebook, who have extensive business in the UK yet use aggressive tax avoidance to contribute almost nothing.Jonathan said:
Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:
Lots of hardcore Remainers are determined to think she was talking about them. She wasn’t.0 -
Of course it was about Remain supporters who think of themselves as citizens of the world. It wasn’t a dog whistle to the inward-looking Leavers, it was a wolf whistle, heard loud and clear by all.Sandpit said:
That comment referred specifically to multinational companies such as Google and Facebook, who have extensive business in the UK yet use aggressive tax avoidance to contribute almost nothing.Jonathan said:
Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:
Lots of hardcore Remainers are determined to think she was talking about them. She wasn’t.0 -
She hurt a lot of people . It was stupid and careless.Sandpit said:
That comment referred specifically to multinational companies such as Google and Facebook, who have extensive business in the UK yet use aggressive tax avoidance to contribute almost nothing.Jonathan said:
Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:
Lots of hardcore Remainers are determined to think she was talking about them. She wasn’t.0 -
True believers are impelled to argue for 'more' Brexit than actually comes to pass so that, in their own minds at least, they do not feel responsible for its shortcomings, having an emotional alibi already in place...AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers supposedly want Brexit to be a success. It is therefore pretty extraordinary that they are unwilling to take any practical steps to enhance its chances.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:0 -
There’s nothing too much wrong with Theresa May’s five tests. Except they’re 18 months late. Sometimes it’s better to be wrong quickly than right slowly. Theresa May is only ever right slowly, and not right often enough.0
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My son's school is closed for a third consecutive day today. We have had kids at that school for around 16 years and I don't ever recall that happening before. Like you the total quantity of snow is not horrendous, maybe 6-8 inches but it is light, being blown around in a very strong wind and dangerously unpredictable.ydoethur said:I'm still waiting to find out if my school is open today. The problem here isn't so much the snow as the wind, which is blowing it everywhere and causing drifts in unexpected places and ice sheets in others. A car drove easily up a hill and then got stuck on a flat, level stretch of road outside my house last night - it took some shifting.
I am off to the local Sheriff Court today. am allowing an hour for getting out of the village.0 -
I think that's a misunderstanding. They believe it will be a success by default because the aim of Brexiteers is not to enhance economic prosperity but to leave the EU. Of course as they blame it for many disasters (cf. bans on beef exports, silly talk about bananas, the collapse of industry, massive pressure on housing through immigration) they also believe things will improve, but that's a secondary consideration. They are of course wrong about some of these - only some, not all, as the EU is a deeply flawed and mind-bendingly corrupt institution - but that is what they believe.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers supposedly want Brexit to be a success. It is therefore pretty extraordinary that they are unwilling to take any practical steps to enhance its chances.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:
What I want, if we have to leave the EU which we do, is to minimise the economic disruption. But unfortunately to do so we would have to concede some ongoing sovereignty to the EU. It is therefore doubly frustrating the EU are going out of their way to confirm the views of Leavers that the EU is run by tenth-rate crooks whom we need for national survival to break away from entirely, while we are not making our case effectively that even if attainable their dream is not worth the pain it will cause.0 -
If so, and I don’t believe that all Leave cheerleaders are quite as unhinged as you suggest, there is nothing Remain supporters can do to reach them. So any name-calling is harmless.ydoethur said:
I think that's a misunderstanding. They believe it will be a success by default because the aim of Brexiteers is not to enhance economic prosperity but to leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers supposedly want Brexit to be a success. It is therefore pretty extraordinary that they are unwilling to take any practical steps to enhance its chances.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:0 -
School is shut.DavidL said:
My son's school is closed for a third consecutive day today. We have had kids at that school for around 16 years and I don't ever recall that happening before. Like you the total quantity of snow is not horrendous, maybe 6-8 inches but it is light, being blown around in a very strong wind and dangerously unpredictable.ydoethur said:I'm still waiting to find out if my school is open today. The problem here isn't so much the snow as the wind, which is blowing it everywhere and causing drifts in unexpected places and ice sheets in others. A car drove easily up a hill and then got stuck on a flat, level stretch of road outside my house last night - it took some shifting.
I am off to the local Sheriff Court today. am allowing an hour for getting out of the village.
In the entire history of my school, this is the second time it has closed because of snow.
The other was in December!0 -
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.0 -
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.0 -
I think most of them would have accepted a return to EFTA, at any rate to start with while we worked out a permanent solution. But attitudes on both sides have hardened and that is now off the table.AlastairMeeks said:
If so, and I don’t believe that all Leave cheerleaders are quite as unhinged as you suggest, there is nothing Remain supporters can do to reach them. So any name-calling is harmless.ydoethur said:
I think that's a misunderstanding. They believe it will be a success by default because the aim of Brexiteers is not to enhance economic prosperity but to leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers supposedly want Brexit to be a success. It is therefore pretty extraordinary that they are unwilling to take any practical steps to enhance its chances.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:0 -
Pretty much sums it up. A significant part of the problem has been that the EU thought that if they made it difficult enough then we would change our minds. Every time they seem to be getting past that there is another effort by remainers to disrupt the process and we take a step back again. Over most of February there were good signs that progress was being made but we now seem to be back to the start with the EU draft.ydoethur said:
I think that's a misunderstanding. They believe it will be a success by default because the aim of Brexiteers is not to enhance economic prosperity but to leave the EU. Of course as they blame it for many disasters (cf. bans on beef exports, silly talk about bananas, the collapse of industry, massive pressure on housing through immigration) they also believe things will improve, but that's a secondary consideration. They are of course wrong about some of these - only some, not all, as the EU is a deeply flawed and mind-bendingly corrupt institution - but that is what they believe.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers supposedly want Brexit to be a success. It is therefore pretty extraordinary that they are unwilling to take any practical steps to enhance its chances.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:
What I want, if we have to leave the EU which we do, is to minimise the economic disruption. But unfortunately to do so we would have to concede some ongoing sovereignty to the EU. It is therefore doubly frustrating the EU are going out of their way to confirm the views of Leavers that the EU is run by tenth-rate crooks whom we need for national survival to break away from entirely, while we are not making our case effectively that even if attainable their dream is not worth the pain it will cause.
The absurd refusal to discuss the future relationship for over a year is now coming back to bite both sides who would both gain substantially from a close, free trade relationship where the UK continues to contribute to a series of EU based institutions in exchange for associate membership. The time to achieve this is becoming increasingly short.0 -
The French have no word for cul de sac; or rather they do, and it's voie sans issue. Top trolling by whoever misinformed 19th century English town planners.Bromptonaut said:5 tests - remind you of anyone?
The last time we had that was designed to prevent a deal with the EU, not to achieve one.
Road to Brexit? More like an arse-of-bag,(eschewing the French there, naturellement).0 -
Surely Leavers believe that the very act of Leaving is the success; when we no longer participate in any European political organisations, or any pan-European organisations which set rules about pretty miuch anything.
I'm not sure what they feel about UEFA, incidentally, or the European Cup!
Those two aside, however, as a Remainer I'm not sure that 'Ourselves alone" to misquote Sinn Fein, works in the world today. We are no longer an island standing on coal and surrounded by fish, nor is the Royal Navy's world-wide reach enough to protect our trade.
The world has moved on, and ver the past 50 years many or our main manufacturers have developed links with partners, or indeed are themselves international organisation.0 -
Yes, which is why I support hard Brexit and have been advocating it for 18 months. The Brexiteers must not be let off the hook.IanB2 said:
True believers are impelled to argue for 'more' Brexit than actually comes to pass so that, in their own minds at least, they do not feel responsible for its shortcomings, having an emotional alibi already in place...AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers supposedly want Brexit to be a success. It is therefore pretty extraordinary that they are unwilling to take any practical steps to enhance its chances.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:
last nights #BBCQT was quite depressing. Blackpool keen to get Brexit but completely unable to explain how it would break their town's spiral of decline.0 -
So let’s suppose we find the outcome makes the UK less open and tolerant.
What is our recourse?
= meaningless guff. I preferred the owl promise.0 -
The words 'national suicide' are unhelpful.AlastairMeeks said:
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.
The other problem the pro-EU lobby (in which I don't include myself even as a Remain voter) has is one of credibility. We were told staying out of the Euro was economic suicide. It turned out the opposite was true - going in would have crashed it entirely in 2008. We were told that we had to give up part of our rebate to get reforms. We did, but we got no reforms. We were told that if we voted to leave the economy would shrink rapidly and immediately. It didn't. We were told planes would have to be grounded. They weren't and even the EU have quietly dropped that claim.
We're now told that leaving will cause the break-up of the UK, the withdrawal of all banks and car manufacturers and the destruction of the NHS (or as the tweeter puts it, 'national suicide'). And yet, with that track record, it just looks like silly hysteria. Even if it is true, it just doesn't cut through any more and turns people further off the EU with the simple attitude that they are a bunch of sore losers.0 -
When you have had to deal with a family member slitting their wrists, you tend to object to casual and hyperbolic use of "suicide".AlastairMeeks said:
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.0 -
The man is entitled to his view.ydoethur said:
The words 'national suicide' are unhelpful.AlastairMeeks said:
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.
The other problem the pro-EU lobby (in which I don't include myself even as a Remain voter) has is one of credibility. We were told staying out of the Euro was economic suicide. It turned out the opposite was true - going in would have crashed it entirely in 2008. We were told that we had to give up part of our rebate to get reforms. We did, but we got no reforms. We were told that if we voted to leave the economy would shrink rapidly and immediately. It didn't. We were told planes would have to be grounded. They weren't and even the EU have quietly dropped that claim.
We're now told that leaving will cause the break-up of the UK, the withdrawal of all banks and car manufacturers and the destruction of the NHS (or as the tweeter puts it, 'national suicide'). And yet, with that track record, it just looks like silly hysteria. Even if it is true, it just doesn't cut through any more and turns people further off the EU with the simple attitude that they are a bunch of sore losers.
Leavers have reached the point where a conflicting view firmly expressed is offensive. But one of their own can label someone with a conflicting view a traitor and it passes without comment.0 -
Which was actually my original point. We now have a dialogue of the deaf going on. (As a deaf person myself, entitled to hearing aids that those gits in the NHS won't pay for that metaphor is carefully chosen!)AlastairMeeks said:
The man is entitled to his view.ydoethur said:
The words 'national suicide' are unhelpful.AlastairMeeks said:
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.
The other problem the pro-EU lobby (in which I don't include myself even as a Remain voter) has is one of credibility. We were told staying out of the Euro was economic suicide. It turned out the opposite was true - going in would have crashed it entirely in 2008. We were told that we had to give up part of our rebate to get reforms. We did, but we got no reforms. We were told that if we voted to leave the economy would shrink rapidly and immediately. It didn't. We were told planes would have to be grounded. They weren't and even the EU have quietly dropped that claim.
We're now told that leaving will cause the break-up of the UK, the withdrawal of all banks and car manufacturers and the destruction of the NHS (or as the tweeter puts it, 'national suicide'). And yet, with that track record, it just looks like silly hysteria. Even if it is true, it just doesn't cut through any more and turns people further off the EU with the simple attitude that they are a bunch of sore losers.
Leavers have reached the point where a conflicting view firmly expressed is offensive. But one of their own can label someone with a conflicting view a traitor and it passes without comment.
Edit - and of course the poster who uses the word 'traitor' most often is an ardent Remainer, and I must say I think TSE's choice of language is Reckless.0 -
If only your sensitivity about language extended to the nonstop barrage of abuse that comes out of the mouths of your unhinged fellow travellers.MarqueeMark said:
When you have had to deal with a family member slitting their wrists, you tend to object to casual and hyperbolic use of "suicide".AlastairMeeks said:
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.
I realise this may be hard to compute, but there are plenty of people who see Brexit as an unmitigated national catastrophe. They are entitled to express those views and they are not going to choose gentle metaphors.0 -
Currently feels about 20 degrees warmer here in south Devon. Quite a thaw going on. Although, if it freezes again, it is going to be worse than anything yet endured.
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Were we told that not joining the Euro was "national suicide"? I dont recall even advocates being that hyperbolic.ydoethur said:
The words 'national suicide' are unhelpful.AlastairMeeks said:
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.
The other problem the pro-EU lobby (in which I don't include myself even as a Remain voter) has is one of credibility. We were told staying out of the Euro was economic suicide. It turned out the opposite was true - going in would have crashed it entirely in 2008. We were told that we had to give up part of our rebate to get reforms. We did, but we got no reforms. We were told that if we voted to leave the economy would shrink rapidly and immediately. It didn't. We were told planes would have to be grounded. They weren't and even the EU have quietly dropped that claim.
We're now told that leaving will cause the break-up of the UK, the withdrawal of all banks and car manufacturers and the destruction of the NHS (or as the tweeter puts it, 'national suicide'). And yet, with that track record, it just looks like silly hysteria. Even if it is true, it just doesn't cut through any more and turns people further off the EU with the simple attitude that they are a bunch of sore losers.
Brexit will be shite, and will waste a decade or two without tackling the real issues facing the country and indeed will make many of them worse. It will not be fatal though.0 -
Everyone on this board is being a touch parochial...
Trump's tarriffs and Putin's missiles are larger issues than Brexit geopolitically !0 -
Ken Livingstone used that sort of language in his first mayoral campaign, and Heseltine used it a couple of times as well.Foxy said:
Were we told that not joining the Euro was "national suicide". I dont recall even advocates being that hyperbolic.ydoethur said:
The words 'national suicide' are unhelpful.AlastairMeeks said:
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.
The other problem the pro-EU lobby (in which I don't include myself even as a Remain voter) has is one of credibility. We were told staying out of the Euro was economic suicide. It turned out the opposite was true - going in would have crashed it entirely in 2008. We were told that we had to give up part of our rebate to get reforms. We did, but we got no reforms. We were told that if we voted to leave the economy would shrink rapidly and immediately. It didn't. We were told planes would have to be grounded. They weren't and even the EU have quietly dropped that claim.
We're now told that leaving will cause the break-up of the UK, the withdrawal of all banks and car manufacturers and the destruction of the NHS (or as the tweeter puts it, 'national suicide'). And yet, with that track record, it just looks like silly hysteria. Even if it is true, it just doesn't cut through any more and turns people further off the EU with the simple attitude that they are a bunch of sore losers.
Brexit will be shite, and will waste a decade or two without tackling the real issues facing the country and indeed will make many of them worse. It will not be fatal though.
The point is if it isn't fatal, it's not suicide. The irony of the Euro predictions of course is that if we had joined it might have proved literally fatal (as in - led to a war over the economic collapse of Europe).0 -
On the subject of parochial:Pulpstar said:Everyone on this board is being a touch parochial...
Trump's tarriffs and Putin's missiles are larger issues than Brexit geopolitically !
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/969467088426250240?ref_src=twcamp^copy|twsrc^android|twgr^copy|twcon^7090|twterm^30 -
These are very valid points.ydoethur said:
The words 'national suicide' are unhelpful.AlastairMeeks said:
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.
The other problem the pro-EU lobby (in which I don't include myself even as a Remain voter) has is one of credibility. We were told staying out of the Euro was economic suicide. It turned out the opposite was true - going in would have crashed it entirely in 2008. We were told that we had to give up part of our rebate to get reforms. We did, but we got no reforms. We were told that if we voted to leave the economy would shrink rapidly and immediately. It didn't. We were told planes would have to be grounded. They weren't and even the EU have quietly dropped that claim.
We're now told that leaving will cause the break-up of the UK, the withdrawal of all banks and car manufacturers and the destruction of the NHS (or as the tweeter puts it, 'national suicide'). And yet, with that track record, it just looks like silly hysteria. Even if it is true, it just doesn't cut through any more and turns people further off the EU with the simple attitude that they are a bunch of sore losers.
Not to mention how wrong elite opinion was on the Euro.
Any sensible Remainer needs to take these on board.
I will be listening charitably to May today, though I expect to be disappointed.0 -
I suspect that for some on the Remain side, the few Remainiacs, it's no longer an economic argument, or even a democratic one. It's one of pride.
Their superior wisdom has been ignored and the opinion of lesser beings has won the day. This is intolerable. Clearly there is something wrong with democracy if this can happen. That's why they would prefer Brexit to be a total failure. Even if it isn't, they will pretend it is. Admitting they were wrong will never happen. Their subjective judgement must be correct.
You'd have to have a heart of stone not to smile at their discomfort. I do my best not to, but it's difficult.0 -
Unhinged, eh?AlastairMeeks said:
If only your sensitivity about language extended to the nonstop barrage of abuse that comes out of the mouths of your unhinged fellow travellers.MarqueeMark said:
When you have had to deal with a family member slitting their wrists, you tend to object to casual and hyperbolic use of "suicide".AlastairMeeks said:
What do you find offensive in that tweet?MarqueeMark said:
Nice. Scott_P retweeting someone being offensive.Scott_P said:
The only thing Remainers will accept as a "compromise" on Brexit is for Brexit not to happen. There is no common ground to be had with such people.
I realise this may be hard to compute, but there are plenty of people who see Brexit as an unmitigated national catastrophe. They are entitled to express those views and they are not going to choose gentle metaphors.
Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVDH0nsJ0jA0 -
I note that one of Mrs May's'tests, according to the BBC is 'that any deal must not break down.'
There's always a risk of a deal breaking down, up to and including marriage. Who on earth thought that was something sensible to include?0 -
How often do Remainers criticise the EU for that? Or are they happier name calling and condescending to their fellow countrymen and women?DavidL said:
The absurd refusal to discuss the future relationship for over a year is now coming back to bite both sides who would both gain substantially from a close, free trade relationship where the UK continues to contribute to a series of EU based institutions in exchange for associate membership. The time to achieve this is becoming increasingly short.ydoethur said:
I think that's a misunderstanding. They believe it will be a success by default because the aim of Brexiteers is not to enhance economic prosperity but to leave the EU. Of course as they blame it for many disasters (cf. bans on beef exports, silly talk about bananas, the collapse of industry, massive pressure on housing through immigration) they also believe things will improve, but that's a secondary consideration. They are of course wrong about some of these - only some, not all, as the EU is a deeply flawed and mind-bendingly corrupt institution - but that is what they believe.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers supposedly want Brexit to be a success. It is therefore pretty extraordinary that they are unwilling to take any practical steps to enhance its chances.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:
What I want, if we have to leave the EU which we do, is to minimise the economic disruption. But unfortunately to do so we would have to concede some ongoing sovereignty to the EU. It is therefore doubly frustrating the EU are going out of their way to confirm the views of Leavers that the EU is run by tenth-rate crooks whom we need for national survival to break away from entirely, while we are not making our case effectively that even if attainable their dream is not worth the pain it will cause.0 -
British citizens obviously will focus on where they can most easily express influence. As it happens, I have devoted more than one thread header to the inadequacies of the EU in this process.CarlottaVance said:
How often do Remainers criticise the EU for that? Or are they happier name calling and condescending to their fellow countrymen and women?DavidL said:
The absurd refusal to discuss the future relationship for over a year is now coming back to bite both sides who would both gain substantially from a close, free trade relationship where the UK continues to contribute to a series of EU based institutions in exchange for associate membership. The time to achieve this is becoming increasingly short.ydoethur said:
I think that's a misunderstanding. They believe it will be a success by default because the aim of Brexiteers is not to enhance economic prosperity but to leave the EU. Of course as they blame it for many disasters (cf. bans on beef exports, silly talk about bananas, the collapse of industry, massive pressure on housing through immigration) they also believe things will improve, but that's a secondary consideration. They are of course wrong about some of these - only some, not all, as the EU is a deeply flawed and mind-bendingly corrupt institution - but that is what they believe.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers supposedly want Brexit to be a success. It is therefore pretty extraordinary that they are unwilling to take any practical steps to enhance its chances.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am sill puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers and then wonder why the victors are not showing any magnanimity or willingness to listen to our concerns about the disasters we foresee.Scott_P said:
What I want, if we have to leave the EU which we do, is to minimise the economic disruption. But unfortunately to do so we would have to concede some ongoing sovereignty to the EU. It is therefore doubly frustrating the EU are going out of their way to confirm the views of Leavers that the EU is run by tenth-rate crooks whom we need for national survival to break away from entirely, while we are not making our case effectively that even if attainable their dream is not worth the pain it will cause.0 -
China's descent down to one-person rule is more important, IMO. Trump's tariffs won't lead to war, and Putin appears to be rather over-selling his missiles' capabilities.Pulpstar said:Everyone on this board is being a touch parochial...
Trump's tarriffs and Putin's missiles are larger issues than Brexit geopolitically !
But Xi Jinping's rise to power unprecedented since Mao's time comes at a point where China is increasingly flexing its economic muscles.0 -
As Denis Healey nearly said, "when you are in a blizzard, start digging". I may be some time....0
-
Good morning, everyone.
The wind is up here. It was rather chilly.
Mr. Jessop, I agree. Xi's taken a number of significant steps. He immediately began by increasing military spending, then had sabre-rattling over the disputed islands with Japan as well as the South China Sea land grab. He ended the decades-long informal truce amongst the Communist Party's upper echelons when it comes to internal bloodletting/corruption investigations. Then he got Xi Jinping thought (or similar) put in the same bracket as Mao's own views. And now he's getting rid, seemingly, of term limits so he can continue in power.
Closer to home, a significant week. On the 4th we have both the Italian election and the German coalition result.0 -
What is really galling, is that the considerable number of intelligent people who are currently putting all their efforts into overturning democracy, could instead be putting those efforts towards making Brexit a success. Former prime ministers and business leaders could be out there with those banging the drum for a new, globally looking outward Britain - rather than taking a leaf out of Ted Heath’s book and going on a massive public sulk because they lost.CD13 said:I suspect that for some on the Remain side, the few Remainiacs, it's no longer an economic argument, or even a democratic one. It's one of pride.
Their superior wisdom has been ignored and the opinion of lesser beings has won the day. This is intolerable. Clearly there is something wrong with democracy if this can happen. That's why they would prefer Brexit to be a total failure. Even if it isn't, they will pretend it is. Admitting they were wrong will never happen. Their subjective judgement must be correct.
You'd have to have a heart of stone not to smile at their discomfort. I do my best not to, but it's difficult.0 -
We are getting ready for Life After Brexit - the ultimate exercise in parochialityPulpstar said:Everyone on this board is being a touch parochial...
Trump's tarriffs and Putin's missiles are larger issues than Brexit geopolitically !
0 -
I see pb's cohort of ultra-Remainers is on duty early this morning.
I wonder why.0 -
Reading this thread is so depressing. Such anger is burning up some remainers to the point they seem to be having a collective breakdown.
The last fews days have not been good for remain with Barnier's so called threat to the UK constitution, Major talking to remainers, and Blair lecturing the EU over their collective blame for Brexit.
Unsurprisingly the remain argument is not shifting opinion and Barnier has allowed TM to be seen to stand up for the UK against the EU which is always popular for a British PM.
Their are some fair minded remainers who want to listen to TM today with an open mind but the extreme remainers would only be satisfied if she called Brexit off and that is not on the table0 -
Sadly, test four
4. Consistent with open outward-looking European democracy
is directly contradicted by test one
1. Respect the referendum
which was vote for a more closed, inward-looking anti-European Brexitocracy0 -
Those intelligent people might have concluded that it's a fool's errand. Or that they don't want to tar themselves with an enterprise born out of xenophobic lies.Sandpit said:
What is really galling, is that the considerable number of intelligent people who are currently putting all their efforts into overturning democracy, could instead be putting those efforts towards making Brexit a success. Former prime ministers and business leaders could be out there with those banging the drum for a new, globally looking outward Britain - rather than taking a leaf out of Ted Heath’s book and going on a massive public sulk because they lost.CD13 said:I suspect that for some on the Remain side, the few Remainiacs, it's no longer an economic argument, or even a democratic one. It's one of pride.
Their superior wisdom has been ignored and the opinion of lesser beings has won the day. This is intolerable. Clearly there is something wrong with democracy if this can happen. That's why they would prefer Brexit to be a total failure. Even if it isn't, they will pretend it is. Admitting they were wrong will never happen. Their subjective judgement must be correct.
You'd have to have a heart of stone not to smile at their discomfort. I do my best not to, but it's difficult.
Perhaps you should consider why the great and the good still don't want to have anything to do with it. Your explanation might be emotionally satisfying for committed Leavers but it lacks plausibility as an explanation for a group decision.0 -
Britain will still be European. Just not part of the EU. That is something different although there is sometimes conflation of the two.Scott_P said:Sadly, test four
4. Consistent with open outward-looking European democracy
is directly contradicted by test one
1. Respect the referendum
which was vote for a more closed, inward-looking anti-European Brexitocracy
Just as Canada is an American country, but is not part of the United States, sometimes wrongly called 'America'.0 -
Because PB's cohorts of ultra-leavers is increasingly incoherent, and someone needs to step up to the plate?Casino_Royale said:I see pb's cohort of ultra-Remainers is on duty early this morning.
I wonder why.
Brexit is consuming PB, just as it is consuming good government in this country.0 -
Mr. Meeks, is there a term akin to xenophobia, but applying to one's fellow countrymen? I must admit my knowledge of Greek is minimal. Demophobia?0
-
You might have a point if the EU represented anything close to "outward-looking European democracy".Scott_P said:Sadly, test four
4. Consistent with open outward-looking European democracy
is directly contradicted by test one
1. Respect the referendum
which was vote for a more closed, inward-looking anti-European Brexitocracy
It didn't. It wasn't fit for purpose. The British people took the very brave and very principled position to tell these unelected determinants of European direction to stick their shitty little Project back up their arses.0 -
Brexit gave us Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary almost two years ago.JosiasJessop said:
Brexit is consuming PB, just as it is consuming good government in this country.
Why the present tense?0 -
O/T re UK/Irish border. It's clear that there needs to be some seriously "creative" thinking on this and I had a mad idea which might not work for all sorts of technical and/or practical reasons but it seems that too many people are focussed on the border as being a totally set "thing".....
Would it be possible to put in effect a situation where, for example, a Free Trade Zone is created one mile either side of the border so that it is up to the individual or company to act before leaving that zone to declare anything that needs declaring.
What it does allow by way of a fudge is that it's up to either side how hard they enforce this, removes the need for obvious and physical border posts which psychologically keeps those who object appeased, it allows those whose jobs and lives depend on the close business across the border to carry on as before, could open up opportunities for manufacturers or other industries to set up new businesses in that free trade zone where they need UK or EU components to be part of their product to do so with less red tape and could also allow entrepreneurs to set up businesses in that free trade zone to handle, log and report declarations to the customs authorities on either side on behalf of the state thus removing the involvement of the state and its antagonism to certain parties?
Could be completely unworkable on WTO grounds etc but I wish people would batter away with more wild theories rather than just accept that there is only a certain way it can be solved which will not work for one side or another.
Having lived in Geneva for six years basically on the swiss French border I loved that there was effectively no border in main parts but manned crossings for those who used main routes and where declarations could be made but appreciate the relationship between Switzerland and France is different from a non-EU UK and the EU.....0 -
And still a democracy. Something of a blind spot with the EU.ydoethur said:
Britain will still be European. Just not part of the EU. That is something different although there is sometimes conflation of the two.Scott_P said:Sadly, test four
4. Consistent with open outward-looking European democracy
is directly contradicted by test one
1. Respect the referendum
which was vote for a more closed, inward-looking anti-European Brexitocracy
Just as Canada is an American country, but is not part of the United States, sometimes wrongly called 'America'.
Thinking back to Major:
What he did: 3 line whip, no referendum.
What he advocates: free vote, second referendum.0 -
I agree wholeheartedly.ydoethur said:
The name calling on both sides is really frustrating. Just as I am still puzzled that my fellow Remainers call Leavers bigots, retards, xenophobes, fascists, thieves, liars and swindlers....Scott_P said:
But then I look at Brexit ministers, and can't entirely blame the rhetoric...0 -
Trump's tariffs are arguably linked to Brexit. They seriously undermine the WTO, meaning WTO "rules" might not be what they are cracked up to be. Far better to be in a powerful trading bloc with its own rules.Pulpstar said:Everyone on this board is being a touch parochial...
Trump's tarriffs and Putin's missiles are larger issues than Brexit geopolitically !0 -
"visitor to Hartlepool"Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, is there a term akin to xenophobia, but applying to one's fellow countrymen?
0 -
There is a reason we tend to hold local elections and general elections and referendums in May or June. However kudos to the 12% who voted in the Devon by election yesterday, true democrats who will always exercise their franchise regardless of the weather.
Let us also not forget that in the United States the New Hampshire Republican and Democratic presidential primaries are always held in February often amidst sub zero temperatures and heavy snow yet always get a good turnout as the result attracts global attention and can make or break a candidate0 -
Could I just say that Mrs Foxy has Blue Tits, but also Great Tits.
Its never too early for smutty innuendo, but rather chilly replenishing her bird feeders this morning. While they are her birds, refilling is a "boy job" it seems on a day like today...0 -
Which she has entirely failed to make clear subsequently.Sandpit said:
That comment referred specifically to multinational companies such as Google and Facebook, who have extensive business in the UK yet use aggressive tax avoidance to contribute almost nothing.Jonathan said:
Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:
Lots of hardcore Remainers are determined to think she was talking about them. She wasn’t.
This is a meme that has been allowed to grow; a less maladroit politician would have dealt with the matter months ago.0 -
The time to worry is when she has Penduline Tits.Foxy said:Could I just say that Mrs Foxy has Blue Tits, but also Great Tits.
Its never too early for smutty innuendo, but rather chilly replenishing her bird feeders this morning. While they are her birds, refilling is a "boy job" it seems on a day like today...
Because you'll be living in a swamp.....0 -
I was thinking overnight that maybe we ought have Brexit-free days on PB when we find something else to talk about with anybody's edging in to leave or remain territory finding that their comments get deleted0
-
Same as Russia, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Belarus, the Ukraine and for now Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia and Albania are also part of Europe and not part of the EUydoethur said:
Britain will still be European. Just not part of the EU. That is something different although there is sometimes conflation of the two.Scott_P said:Sadly, test four
4. Consistent with open outward-looking European democracy
is directly contradicted by test one
1. Respect the referendum
which was vote for a more closed, inward-looking anti-European Brexitocracy
Just as Canada is an American country, but is not part of the United States, sometimes wrongly called 'America'.0 -
Again, Major always acted in what he believed to be the best economic interests of this country. For him national sovereignty was a secondary consideration. That's why he was so keen on the ERM, and then abruptly changed his mind. That's why he drove through Maastricht.CarlottaVance said:
And still a democracy. Something of a blind spot with the EU.ydoethur said:
Britain will still be European. Just not part of the EU. That is something different although there is sometimes conflation of the two.Scott_P said:Sadly, test four
4. Consistent with open outward-looking European democracy
is directly contradicted by test one
1. Respect the referendum
which was vote for a more closed, inward-looking anti-European Brexitocracy
Just as Canada is an American country, but is not part of the United States, sometimes wrongly called 'America'.
Thinking back to Major:
What he did: 3 line whip, no referendum.
What he advocates: free vote, second referendum.
On that front he succeeded brilliantly and under his stewardship and Clarke's the economic foundations were laid for a truly unprecedented era of prosperity. The political damage he caused by doing it is another matter, and we are now seeing this played out.
However, as he (correctly, in my view) believes leaving the EU will cause economic damage his position is consistent.0 -
Off-topic:
In my teens and twenties, I suffered around 12 years of fairly debilitating pain that meant, at times, I could not even walk. There were many times I seriously considered doing what this brave young lady has done:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-devon-43228951/i-had-my-leg-cut-off-to-get-my-life-back0 -
Who knows ?Pulpstar said:
Isn't he tariff just for the raw product, or are cars going to get tarrif, they have a lot of steel and aluminium.Nigelb said:Those hoping for a quick trade deal with the US might wish to ponder on this:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/01/trump-steel-tariffs-432143
Is trump applying this to all grades, if he wanted to clobber China a 50% tariff on mild would have done the trick..
That this is going to apply to Mexico and Canada in the middle of the NAFTA renegotiation is not encouraging.
In any event, the details don't really matter if this end up sparking off a round of retaliatory tariffs, or worse a full blown trade war. Britain has put itself in a remarkably vulnerable position.
It might all blow over, but relying on that just as we cut ourselves out of a massive free trade block is taking a very large risk.0 -
Yes - I thought of some of those but I decided that perhaps Russia, Belorussia, Serbia, Bosnia and Albania were not perhaps dazzling examples of European democracy we would wish to aspire to...HYUFD said:
Same as Russia, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Belarus and for now Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia and Albania are also part of Europe and not part of the EUydoethur said:
Britain will still be European. Just not part of the EU. That is something different although there is sometimes conflation of the two.Scott_P said:Sadly, test four
4. Consistent with open outward-looking European democracy
is directly contradicted by test one
1. Respect the referendum
which was vote for a more closed, inward-looking anti-European Brexitocracy
Just as Canada is an American country, but is not part of the United States, sometimes wrongly called 'America'.0 -
Even as a Remain voter, I do agree that the slur was unintentional.Sandpit said:
That comment referred specifically to multinational companies such as Google and Facebook, who have extensive business in the UK yet use aggressive tax avoidance to contribute almost nothing.Jonathan said:
Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:
Lots of hardcore Remainers are determined to think she was talking about them. She wasn’t.
The reason is that the alternative is unthinkable. “Citizen of nowhere” - or “heimatlos” - was a slur used by fascists in the 1920s and 30s to justify racist and eugenicist policies. “Pure Germans” had a home, whereas the “heimatlos” had a trans-national loyalty that (in this reading) was actively against Germany’s interests. Thus the heimatlos must be subjugated or, eventually, eliminated. It’s pretty obvious who the slur referred to. Philipp Blom’s ‘Fracture’ is very good on this (and a superb book in general).
May should have had advisors who knew this context and excised the phrase. Evidently she didn’t. So I believe it’s not evidence of malice, more of the inept tin-earedness that has characterised her tenure.
The time for a message of reconciliation was the first day of her premiership. That was her opportunity to say: the country is split 50/50; we need a solution that both Remain and Leave voters can live with. She chose not to, and instead to indulge the Leave ultras for months. It’s too late now to go back on that. The country is divided and her speech will be scorned by both camps.0 -
We could have a day entirely spent discussing AV...MikeSmithson said:I was thinking overnight that maybe we ought have Brexit-free days on PB when we find something else to talk about with anybody's edging in to leave or remain territory finding that their comments get deleted
0 -
This is far more disturbing than any flavour of Brexit:
http://app.ft.com/mcdonnell?sectionid=home
We actually have a shadow chancellor who says he won’t take money from ‘bourgeois organisations’.
Corbyn and (especially) McDonnell in power will be an absolute catastrophe for this country.0 -
Ditto, but we have red headed woodpeckers too. In this weather, the fat "suet" log from "Wilkinson's" @£2 lasts about 36 hrs max. Its a joy to see them all tucking in and the robins underneath picking up the scraps that fall below.Foxy said:Could I just say that Mrs Foxy has Blue Tits, but also Great Tits.
Its never too early for smutty innuendo, but rather chilly replenishing her bird feeders this morning. While they are her birds, refilling is a "boy job" it seems on a day like today...0 -
Has roger got an oscar thread for the weekend? that would be a good one for a brexit free day.MikeSmithson said:I was thinking overnight that maybe we ought have Brexit-free days on PB when we find something else to talk about with anybody's edging in to leave or remain territory finding that their comments get deleted
0 -
I was ill for a few days this week, so staggered out of the house to get some food yesterday. Managed find one Sainsbury's store open, looking like a supermarket in Cuba after the fall of the Berlin Wall. I bought the last packet of apples and a cheesecake. No vegetables, meat, milk or bread. I guess it will be a couple of days before the stores are restocked, so I will need to bake my own bread and do without milk for a while.0
-
We can talk about the merits of Bedford instead.MikeSmithson said:I was thinking overnight that maybe we ought have Brexit-free days on PB when we find something else to talk about with anybody's edging in to leave or remain territory finding that their comments get deleted
0 -
All well and good to propose this, to step in and close down debate when your boys are getting a hammering on the subject. Your site, your rules. But maybe not on the day when the PM is giving a major speech on the subject?MikeSmithson said:I was thinking overnight that maybe we ought have Brexit-free days on PB when we find something else to talk about with anybody's edging in to leave or remain territory finding that their comments get deleted
0 -
If you stopped Mr Meeks winding up the hard brexiters, it would help a lotMikeSmithson said:I was thinking overnight that maybe we ought have Brexit-free days on PB when we find something else to talk about with anybody's edging in to leave or remain territory finding that their comments get deleted
0 -
We have the Oscars and the Italian general election on Sunday, neither directly Brexit relatedFoxy said:
Has roger got an oscar thread for the weekend? that would be a good one for a brexit free day.MikeSmithson said:I was thinking overnight that maybe we ought have Brexit-free days on PB when we find something else to talk about with anybody's edging in to leave or remain territory finding that their comments get deleted
0 -
Sod it, not again!
"Flooding and Debris is blocking the rail line at Dawlish, Network Rail has said.
All Great Western Railway and CrossCountry services have been suspended due to "significant damage".
Network Rail added that there will be a flood assessment at 10:00 but it is unlikely any trains will be running before lunch "at the least"."0 -
The longevity of the 'had enough of experts' meme suggests that trying to set these things straight is futile. People will hear what they want to, edit out the bits that don't fit their narrative, then repeat as fact ad nauseam.Nigelb said:
Which she has entirely failed to make clear subsequently.Sandpit said:
That comment referred specifically to multinational companies such as Google and Facebook, who have extensive business in the UK yet use aggressive tax avoidance to contribute almost nothing.Jonathan said:
Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:
Lots of hardcore Remainers are determined to think she was talking about them. She wasn’t.
This is a meme that has been allowed to grow; a less maladroit politician would have dealt with the matter months ago.0 -
Brexit hasn't happened yet...MarqueeMark said:
The time to worry is when she has Penduline Tits.Foxy said:Could I just say that Mrs Foxy has Blue Tits, but also Great Tits.
Its never too early for smutty innuendo, but rather chilly replenishing her bird feeders this morning. While they are her birds, refilling is a "boy job" it seems on a day like today...
Because you'll be living in a swamp.....
0 -
I thought Bedford was ALL about Brexit? It gets lumped in with Hartlepool for some reason.JosiasJessop said:
We can talk about the merits of Bedford instead.MikeSmithson said:I was thinking overnight that maybe we ought have Brexit-free days on PB when we find something else to talk about with anybody's edging in to leave or remain territory finding that their comments get deleted
0 -
Do you think Corbyn will provide a government that both Tory and Labour voters can live with if he wins a majority, even a very narrow one? Of course not, democracy means the majority wins that does not mean the minority cannot try for a majority next time or another goEl_Capitano said:
Even as a Remain voter, I do agree that the slur was unintentional.Sandpit said:
That comment referred specifically to multinational companies such as Google and Facebook, who have extensive business in the UK yet use aggressive tax avoidance to contribute almost nothing.Jonathan said:
Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:
Lots of hardcore Remainers are determined to think she was talking about them. She wasn’t.
The reason is that the alternative is unthinkable. “Citizen of nowhere” - or “heimatlos” - was a slur used by fascists in the 1920s and 30s to justify racist and eugenicist policies. “Pure Germans” had a home, whereas the “heimatlos” had a trans-national loyalty that (in this reading) was actively against Germany’s interests. Thus the heimatlos must be subjugated or, eventually, eliminated. It’s pretty obvious who the slur referred to. Philipp Blom’s ‘Fracture’ is very good on this (and a superb book in general).
May should have had advisors who knew this context and excised the phrase. Evidently she didn’t. So I believe it’s not evidence of malice, more of the inept tin-earedness that has characterised her tenure.
The time for a message of reconciliation was the first day of her premiership. That was her opportunity to say: the country is split 50/50; we need a solution that both Remain and Leave voters can live with. She chose not to, and instead to indulge the Leave ultras for months. It’s too late now to go back on that. The country is divided and her speech will be scorned by both camps.0 -
I think that you may need to recruit some extra moderators to cope with the load if you go down that routeMikeSmithson said:I was thinking overnight that maybe we ought have Brexit-free days on PB when we find something else to talk about with anybody's edging in to leave or remain territory finding that their comments get deleted
The character of PB has changed thanks to Brexit. There have been some fantastic debates on here over the years, but not any more.
Go for it Mike. Purge Brexit posts and perhaps you will get PB back again
0 -
Why do think they aren't doing those things?Sandpit said:
What is really galling, is that the considerable number of intelligent people who are currently putting all their efforts into overturning democracy, could instead be putting those efforts towards making Brexit a success. Former prime ministers and business leaders could be out there with those banging the drum for a new, globally looking outward Britain - rather than taking a leaf out of Ted Heath’s book and going on a massive public sulk because they lost.CD13 said:I suspect that for some on the Remain side, the few Remainiacs, it's no longer an economic argument, or even a democratic one. It's one of pride.
Their superior wisdom has been ignored and the opinion of lesser beings has won the day. This is intolerable. Clearly there is something wrong with democracy if this can happen. That's why they would prefer Brexit to be a total failure. Even if it isn't, they will pretend it is. Admitting they were wrong will never happen. Their subjective judgement must be correct.
You'd have to have a heart of stone not to smile at their discomfort. I do my best not to, but it's difficult.0 -
Neither are Poland and Hungary and they are both in the EUydoethur said:
Yes - I thought of some of those but I decided that perhaps Russia, Belorussia, Serbia, Bosnia and Albania were not perhaps dazzling examples of European democracy we would wish to aspire to...HYUFD said:
Same as Russia, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Belarus and for now Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia and Albania are also part of Europe and not part of the EUydoethur said:
Britain will still be European. Just not part of the EU. That is something different although there is sometimes conflation of the two.Scott_P said:Sadly, test four
4. Consistent with open outward-looking European democracy
is directly contradicted by test one
1. Respect the referendum
which was vote for a more closed, inward-looking anti-European Brexitocracy
Just as Canada is an American country, but is not part of the United States, sometimes wrongly called 'America'.0 -
In this case, those who heard "citizens of nowhere" and took offence were those looking to take offence. Best to ignore them. When you are out canvassing, and you get someone who is seeking to engage in a time-wasting argument, you are advised to make your excuses and leave, whilst marking them as "Against". Move on to someone whose views you might change.Essexit said:
The longevity of the 'had enough of experts' meme suggests that trying to set these things straight is futile. People will hear what they want to, edit out the bits that don't fit their narrative, then repeat as fact ad nauseam.Nigelb said:
Which she has entirely failed to make clear subsequently.Sandpit said:
That comment referred specifically to multinational companies such as Google and Facebook, who have extensive business in the UK yet use aggressive tax avoidance to contribute almost nothing.Jonathan said:
Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:
Lots of hardcore Remainers are determined to think she was talking about them. She wasn’t.
This is a meme that has been allowed to grow; a less maladroit politician would have dealt with the matter months ago.0 -
“Next time”? I am delighted by your conversion to the cause of a second referendum.HYUFD said:
Do you think Corbyn will provide a government that both Tory and Labour voters can live with if he wins a majority, even a very narrow one? Of course not, democracy means the majority wins that does not mean the minority cannot try for a majority next time or another goEl_Capitano said:
Even as a Remain voter, I do agree that the slur was unintentional.Sandpit said:
That comment referred specifically to multinational companies such as Google and Facebook, who have extensive business in the UK yet use aggressive tax avoidance to contribute almost nothing.Jonathan said:
Maybe she will apologise. She really should. The citizens of nowhere comment was one of the most damaging .Scott_P said:
Lots of hardcore Remainers are determined to think she was talking about them. She wasn’t.
The reason is that the alternative is unthinkable. “Citizen of nowhere” - or “heimatlos” - was a slur used by fascists in the 1920s and 30s to justify racist and eugenicist policies. “Pure Germans” had a home, whereas the “heimatlos” had a trans-national loyalty that (in this reading) was actively against Germany’s interests. Thus the heimatlos must be subjugated or, eventually, eliminated. It’s pretty obvious who the slur referred to. Philipp Blom’s ‘Fracture’ is very good on this (and a superb book in general).
May should have had advisors who knew this context and excised the phrase. Evidently she didn’t. So I believe it’s not evidence of malice, more of the inept tin-earedness that has characterised her tenure.
The time for a message of reconciliation was the first day of her premiership. That was her opportunity to say: the country is split 50/50; we need a solution that both Remain and Leave voters can live with. She chose not to, and instead to indulge the Leave ultras for months. It’s too late now to go back on that. The country is divided and her speech will be scorned by both camps.
Mrs May evidently believes in holding elections every two years, so by your analogy, we must be due that second referendum about now.0 -
Here in Rural Heart of England, we've had a light dusting. The temperatures have been well below freezing, so whatever snow we have had has hung around and the roads are a bit icy. As long as you don't drive like a numpty, there really shouldn't be a problem. Schools were still shut early and closed today "just in case" though.0
This discussion has been closed.