politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Putting the Northern Ireland border issue into perspective – t

System · February 2018

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Putting the Northern Ireland border issue into perspective – the cartoonist’s view

Thanks again to Nicholas and Helen.

Read the full story here

RobD · February 2018

First.

Made me chuckle...

Sean_F · February 2018

Good cartoon. Escher's pictures used to fascinate me.

Jonathan · February 2018

Hmmm. Things seems to be working now. As Tories used to say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

TheScreamingEagles · February 2018

RobD said:
First.

Made me chuckle...

MC Escher?

He's pop star isn't he, did 'U Can't Touch This'

I love a good maths joke, but I prefer physics jokes, particle physics gives me a hadron.

kyf_100 · February 2018

FPT

Roger said:
For the first time in months I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to happen. And it's not just because almost everyone with a measurable IQ is against it but because Ireland is finally deeply involved. The Irish don't think in weeks months years or even decades. They think in centuries. And when a significant section of the population dig their heels in they stay dug in.

I hate to be the one who has to say this, but if you think "We can't leave, because it would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" is going to be an acceptable reason for cancelling Brexit to the vast majority of the 52% who voted Brexit, I want some of what you're smoking.

People voted for Brexit. "The Irish won't wear it! We're staying!" is basically a recipe for Prime Minister Farage.

MikeSmithson · February 2018

kyf_100 said:
FPT

Roger said:
For the first time in months I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to happen. And it's not just because almost everyone with a measurable IQ is against it but because Ireland is finally deeply involved. The Irish don't think in weeks months years or even decades. They think in centuries. And when a significant section of the population dig their heels in they stay dug in.
I hate to be the one who has to say this, but if you think "We can't leave, because it would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" is going to be an acceptable reason for cancelling Brexit to the vast majority of the 52% who voted Brexit, I want some of what you're smoking.

People voted for Brexit. "The Irish won't wear it! We're staying!" is basically a recipe for Prime Minister Farage.

Did they?

AlastairMeeks · February 2018

Very good cartoon. Though as an earlier mathematician would have noted, all that is required is for Leavers to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

Pulpstar · February 2018

Never. Never. Never !

AndyJS · February 2018

O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769

Ishmael_Z · February 2018

kyf_100 said:
FPT

Roger said:
For the first time in months I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to happen. And it's not just because almost everyone with a measurable IQ is against it but because Ireland is finally deeply involved. The Irish don't think in weeks months years or even decades. They think in centuries. And when a significant section of the population dig their heels in they stay dug in.
I hate to be the one who has to say this, but if you think "We can't leave, because it would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" is going to be an acceptable reason for cancelling Brexit to the vast majority of the 52% who voted Brexit, I want some of what you're smoking.

People voted for Brexit. "The Irish won't wear it! We're staying!" is basically a recipe for Prime Minister Farage.

That sort of cultural generalisation is generally bilge, and a lot of the Irish I meet are posterboys for Korsakoff Syndrome. And it took them all of 15 months to forget what they initially thought of Lisbon in 2008-9.

kyf_100 · February 2018

MikeSmithson said:

kyf_100 said:
FPT

Roger said:
For the first time in months I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to happen. And it's not just because almost everyone with a measurable IQ is against it but because Ireland is finally deeply involved. The Irish don't think in weeks months years or even decades. They think in centuries. And when a significant section of the population dig their heels in they stay dug in.
I hate to be the one who has to say this, but if you think "We can't leave, because it would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" is going to be an acceptable reason for cancelling Brexit to the vast majority of the 52% who voted Brexit, I want some of what you're smoking.

People voted for Brexit. "The Irish won't wear it! We're staying!" is basically a recipe for Prime Minister Farage.
Did they?

I think the last time this topic came up SeanT calmly suggested we fire a small tactical nuke in the general direction of County Kerry. While he's never one to shy away from hyperbole, I pointed out at the time that I expected the man-in-the-pub reaction to be somewhat similar.

Brexit feels to me at least in part to be a very British two-fingers-up at authority type thing and I said at the time that the government would have a hard time selling the fact that the political nuances of the border between Northern Ireland and the RoI necessitated the overruling of his vote to your average pub drinker in Hartlepool. In such a circumstance I can imagine a resurgence of the UKIP vote.

Pulpstar · February 2018

The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.

calum · February 2018

https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/968920039079464960

TheScreamingEagles · February 2018

kyf_100 said:

MikeSmithson said:

kyf_100 said:
FPT

Roger said:
For the first time in months I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to happen. And it's not just because almost everyone with a measurable IQ is against it but because Ireland is finally deeply involved. The Irish don't think in weeks months years or even decades. They think in centuries. And when a significant section of the population dig their heels in they stay dug in.
I hate to be the one who has to say this, but if you think "We can't leave, because it would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" is going to be an acceptable reason for cancelling Brexit to the vast majority of the 52% who voted Brexit, I want some of what you're smoking.

People voted for Brexit. "The Irish won't wear it! We're staying!" is basically a recipe for Prime Minister Farage.
Did they?
I think the last time this topic came up SeanT calmly suggested we fire a small tactical nuke in the general direction of County Kerry. While he's never one to shy away from hyperbole, I pointed out at the time that I expected the man-in-the-pub reaction to be somewhat similar.

Brexit feels to me at least in part to be a very British two-fingers-up at authority type thing and I said at the time that the government would have a hard time selling the fact that the political nuances of the border between Northern Ireland and the RoI necessitated the overruling of his vote to your average pub drinker in Hartlepool. In such a circumstance I can imagine a resurgence of the UKIP vote.

If we're using Sean as the barometer of the reaction of the man in the pub.....

https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/968059599801765889

another_richard · February 2018

Nice cartoon.

I remember a very good Escher cartoon about Major's government in the Times a generation ago.

Roger · February 2018

OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?

RobD · February 2018

calum said:
twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/968920039079464960

Note that the EU won't negotiate the future trading arrangement until after the withdrawal agreement is signed. Madness, I know.

Pulpstar · February 2018

Re: @SeanT

What a bottler. Suffering in the Indian ocean is clearly making him soft.

Jonathan · February 2018

kyf_100 said:

MikeSmithson said:

kyf_100 said:
FPT

Roger said:
For the first time in months I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to happen. And it's not just because almost everyone with a measurable IQ is against it but because Ireland is finally deeply involved. The Irish don't think in weeks months years or even decades. They think in centuries. And when a significant section of the population dig their heels in they stay dug in.
I hate to be the one who has to say this, but if you think "We can't leave, because it would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" is going to be an acceptable reason for cancelling Brexit to the vast majority of the 52% who voted Brexit, I want some of what you're smoking.

People voted for Brexit. "The Irish won't wear it! We're staying!" is basically a recipe for Prime Minister Farage.
Did they?
I think the last time this topic came up SeanT calmly suggested we fire a small tactical nuke in the general direction of County Kerry. While he's never one to shy away from hyperbole, I pointed out at the time that I expected the man-in-the-pub reaction to be somewhat similar.

Brexit feels to me at least in part to be a very British two-fingers-up at authority type thing and I said at the time that the government would have a hard time selling the fact that the political nuances of the border between Northern Ireland and the RoI necessitated the overruling of his vote to your average pub drinker in Hartlepool. In such a circumstance I can imagine a resurgence of the UKIP vote.

Pandering to the man-in-the pub sounds like a silly basis to run a government.

Sean_F · February 2018

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?

In the case of Max Mosley, yes.

HYUFD · February 2018

The best solution for the Irish issue is for May to agree a form of UK 'regulatory alignment' with the EU which while not technically keeping the UK in the Customs Union is as close as possible to it.

The challenge for her will be getting it past her backbenchers though it would satisfy the DUP as UK-wide

Jonathan · February 2018

HYUFD said:
The best solution for the Irish issue is for May to agree a form of UK 'regulatory alignment' with the EU which while not technically keeping the UK in the Customs Union is as close as possible to it.

The challenge for her will be getting it past her backbenchers though it would satisfy the DUP as UK-wide

BINO

rkrkrk · February 2018

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.

We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.

RobD · February 2018

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.

Is there actually anything in the GFA that precludes some customs checks on the border?

another_richard · February 2018

Jonathan said:

HYUFD said:
The best solution for the Irish issue is for May to agree a form of UK 'regulatory alignment' with the EU which while not technically keeping the UK in the Customs Union is as close as possible to it.

The challenge for her will be getting it past her backbenchers though it would satisfy the DUP as UK-wide
BINO

Anything which ends uncontrolled immigration is by definition not BINO.

Nuances about trade and customs mean little to most people.

Foxy · February 2018

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.

Though #1 may mean #2 also.

another_richard · February 2018

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.

It might be a Hard border in theory but ten thousand troops weren't able to make it a hard border in practice.

Jonathan · February 2018

Today the Richard Mottram Quote seems more apt than ever.

"We're all fucked. I'm fucked. You're fucked. The whole department's fucked. It's been the biggest cock-up ever and we're all completely fucked."

Thanks Dave.

Anorak · February 2018

another_richard said:

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.
It might be a Hard border in theory but ten thousand troops weren't able to make it a hard border in practice.

So we only stop the legitimate trade. Sounds an ideal solution, and it's nice and expensive as a special bonus (more GDP!!).

Hmmm.

Barnesian · February 2018

kyf_100 said:

MikeSmithson said:

kyf_100 said:
FPT

Roger said:
For the first time in months I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to happen. And it's not just because almost everyone with a measurable IQ is against it but because Ireland is finally deeply involved. The Irish don't think in weeks months years or even decades. They think in centuries. And when a significant section of the population dig their heels in they stay dug in.
I hate to be the one who has to say this, but if you think "We can't leave, because it would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" is going to be an acceptable reason for cancelling Brexit to the vast majority of the 52% who voted Brexit, I want some of what you're smoking.

People voted for Brexit. "The Irish won't wear it! We're staying!" is basically a recipe for Prime Minister Farage.
Did they?
I think the last time this topic came up SeanT calmly suggested we fire a small tactical nuke in the general direction of County Kerry. While he's never one to shy away from hyperbole, I pointed out at the time that I expected the man-in-the-pub reaction to be somewhat similar.

Brexit feels to me at least in part to be a very British two-fingers-up at authority type thing and I said at the time that the government would have a hard time selling the fact that the political nuances of the border between Northern Ireland and the RoI necessitated the overruling of his vote to your average pub drinker in Hartlepool. In such a circumstance I can imagine a resurgence of the UKIP vote.

A resurgence of the UKIP vote would be an added benefit of no Brexit or BINO. It would wreck the Tories by splitting their vote. Another reason for Corbyn to go for BINO.

another_richard · February 2018

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769

India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.

Yorkcity · February 2018

Jonathan said:

kyf_100 said:

MikeSmithson said:

kyf_100 said:
FPT

Roger said:
For the first time in months I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to happen. And it's not just because almost everyone with a measurable IQ is against it but because Ireland is finally deeply involved. The Irish don't think in weeks months years or even decades. They think in centuries. And when a significant section of the population dig their heels in they stay dug in.
I hate to be the one who has to say this, but if you think "We can't leave, because it would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" is going to be an acceptable reason for cancelling Brexit to the vast majority of the 52% who voted Brexit, I want some of what you're smoking.

People voted for Brexit. "The Irish won't wear it! We're staying!" is basically a recipe for Prime Minister Farage.
Did they?
I think the last time this topic came up SeanT calmly suggested we fire a small tactical nuke in the general direction of County Kerry. While he's never one to shy away from hyperbole, I pointed out at the time that I expected the man-in-the-pub reaction to be somewhat similar.

Brexit feels to me at least in part to be a very British two-fingers-up at authority type thing and I said at the time that the government would have a hard time selling the fact that the political nuances of the border between Northern Ireland and the RoI necessitated the overruling of his vote to your average pub drinker in Hartlepool. In such a circumstance I can imagine a resurgence of the UKIP vote.
Pandering to the man-in-the pub sounds like a silly basis to run a government.

Well Cameron took the man in the pub having a cig advice ,on the holding a referendum.He said his name was Nigel.

another_richard · February 2018

Anorak said:

another_richard said:

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.
It might be a Hard border in theory but ten thousand troops weren't able to make it a hard border in practice.
So we only stop the legitimate trade. Sounds an ideal solution, and it's nice and expensive as a special bonus (more GDP!!).

Hmmm.

I sometimes think the UK borders are there to stop legitimate trade and facilitate illegitimate.

Anorak · February 2018

another_richard said:

Anorak said:

another_richard said:

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.
It might be a Hard border in theory but ten thousand troops weren't able to make it a hard border in practice.
So we only stop the legitimate trade. Sounds an ideal solution, and it's nice and expensive as a special bonus (more GDP!!).

Hmmm.
I sometimes think the UK borders are there to stop legitimate trade and facilitate illegitimate.

"I'm just a very heavy smoker" says man with packed transit van.

Roger · February 2018

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.

The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"

FF43 · February 2018

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.

There is one factor that May et al have completely ignored up to now. Reality. Reality usually wins, eventually. There is no tolerable Brexit outcome that doesn't include being closely aligned with the EU, which will be on its terms. We might get some choices within the parameters set for us by the EU, but that's it. This is why Brexiteers complain loudly and the government doesn't put up an alternative plan. If there was a Plan B we would be getting with it. We will be sticking with Plan EU.

Theuniondivvie · February 2018

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?

There's more recent evidence of the Mail's own opinions on papa Mosely.

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/968796056178843648

Sean_F · February 2018

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"

Max Mosley is more unpleasant than the Daily Mail.

Ishmael_Z · February 2018

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.

It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.

rkrkrk · February 2018

RobD said:

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.
Is there actually anything in the GFA that precludes some customs checks on the border?

I presume there is as the papers keep talking about it.
The govt may be taking legal advice? It would certainly be handy if they could reasonably claim they weren’t breaking the treaty!

Jonathan · February 2018

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.

Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .

AndyJS · February 2018

The article I posted earlier is apparently upsetting a lot of people in America because for instance it suggests that Indians are more racist than Americans.

another_richard · February 2018

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"

' One of the things that always makes me furious is the knee-jerk stupidity of saying that the Daily Mail used to support fascism, thereby implying that it is somehow tainted goods in its modern form.

I certainly have my differences with the politics of the modern Mail, but it is blind prejudice to link what it published, for a brief period, in the 1930s to what it does today.

So I was delighted to see on Anna Raccoon's blog last week a piece by Matt Wardman in which he presented a media history lesson.

He omitted a crucial fact and I'll come to that in a moment. But he made two very important points - firstly, the Mail was not the only paper to carry articles supporting Oswald Mosley's blackshirts. The Daily Mirror did too.

Secondly, trying to criticise the 2011 Mail by pointing to an 80-year-old aberration lacks any value whatsoever. It not only had no lasting effect on the Mail. It had almost no effect even at the time. '

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Someone might also say that choosing to live as you do in such an openly racist country might make you an unsuitable person for commenting on such an issue.

Roger · February 2018

Jacob Rees Mogg now trying a character assassination of John Major. Tories can't resist eating their own feet.

At last the anti Brexit movement is starting to bite

RobD · February 2018

rkrkrk said:

RobD said:

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.
Is there actually anything in the GFA that precludes some customs checks on the border?
I presume there is as the papers keep talking about it.
The govt may be taking legal advice? It would certainly be handy if they could reasonably claim they weren’t breaking the treaty!

What do the papers know!

There’s not a single mention of customs in the treaty, and no reference to a ban on checks on the border.

Mortimer · February 2018

Roger said:
Jacob Rees Mogg now trying a character assassination of John Major. Tories can't resist eating their own feet.

At last the anti Brexit movement is starting to bite

Remind me when JM allowed a free vote on the EU?

bigjohnowls · February 2018

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .

I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.

RobD · February 2018

Roger said:
Jacob Rees Mogg now trying a character assassination of John Major. Tories can't resist eating their own feet.

At last the anti Brexit movement is starting to bite

18 months too late, if it is.

hamiltonace · February 2018

HYUFD said:
The best solution for the Irish issue is for May to agree a form of UK 'regulatory alignment' with the EU which while not technically keeping the UK in the Customs Union is as close as possible to it.

The challenge for her will be getting it past her backbenchers though it would satisfy the DUP as UK-wide

Regulatory alignment in the pharmaceutical sector will require acceptance of European law. It is illegal to sell a non approved drug in Europe. The European Medicines Agency based in London decides what is legal. Are we to outsource our drug policy to EC with no influence on what they approve?

I have a customer with a medtech production plant in Warrenpoint region and warehouse across the border in Eire. Parts, completed goods etc move daily across borders with no detailed paperwork.

Mortimer · February 2018

Roger said:
Jacob Rees Mogg now trying a character assassination of John Major. Tories can't resist eating their own feet.

At last the anti Brexit movement is starting to bite

Also, I'm taking this Remainer glee as a chance to remind everyone of the golden rule of Brexit; anything which cheers Remainers goes on to hurt their cause...

Roger · February 2018

another_richard said:

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"
' One of the things that always makes me furious is the knee-jerk stupidity of saying that the Daily Mail used to support fascism, thereby implying that it is somehow tainted goods in its modern form.

I certainly have my differences with the politics of the modern Mail, but it is blind prejudice to link what it published, for a brief period, in the 1930s to what it does today.

So I was delighted to see on Anna Raccoon's blog last week a piece by Matt Wardman in which he presented a media history lesson.

He omitted a crucial fact and I'll come to that in a moment. But he made two very important points - firstly, the Mail was not the only paper to carry articles supporting Oswald Mosley's blackshirts. The Daily Mirror did too.

Secondly, trying to criticise the 2011 Mail by pointing to an 80-year-old aberration lacks any value whatsoever. It not only had no lasting effect on the Mail. It had almost no effect even at the time. '

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Someone might also say that choosing to live as you do in such an openly racist country might make you an unsuitable person for commenting on such an issue.

Aren't you missing the point that the Mail's character assassination is based on a leaflet Mosely is alleged to have written 56 years ago?

hamiltonace · February 2018

I agree there is no real prospect of a hard Brexit anymore. What is a shame is that a soft Brexit also seems to be slipping away. The Brexiters seem to have run out of ideas and rather than building consensus they are trying pointlessly to ram it through.

Jonathan · February 2018

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.

Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.

Roger · February 2018

Sean_F said:

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"
Max Mosley is more unpleasant than the Daily Mail.

I'll bow to your reasoning

Mortimer · February 2018

Roger said:

another_richard said:

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"
' One of the things that always makes me furious is the knee-jerk stupidity of saying that the Daily Mail used to support fascism, thereby implying that it is somehow tainted goods in its modern form.

I certainly have my differences with the politics of the modern Mail, but it is blind prejudice to link what it published, for a brief period, in the 1930s to what it does today.

So I was delighted to see on Anna Raccoon's blog last week a piece by Matt Wardman in which he presented a media history lesson.

He omitted a crucial fact and I'll come to that in a moment. But he made two very important points - firstly, the Mail was not the only paper to carry articles supporting Oswald Mosley's blackshirts. The Daily Mirror did too.

Secondly, trying to criticise the 2011 Mail by pointing to an 80-year-old aberration lacks any value whatsoever. It not only had no lasting effect on the Mail. It had almost no effect even at the time. '

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Someone might also say that choosing to live as you do in such an openly racist country might make you an unsuitable person for commenting on such an issue.
Aren't you missing the point that the Mail's character assassination is based on a leaflet Mosely is alleged to have written 56 years ago?

Erm, Roge old pal, you just criticised the Mail based on something brought up 80 years ago....

saddo · February 2018

2 interesting games going on today.

John Major blowing his chances of ever being considered a wise old man again with his anti Brexit rant. Given he stiffed us all with Maastricht in the 1st place, he's lost his impact into the future.

Labour's collaborating with Barnier. Corbyn always was stupid but this is madness for Labour.

SouthamObserver · February 2018

The Moggster revealed as a plonker in an interview on C4 News. Behind the accent and affectations he’s just another son of privilege with a mediocre mind.

williamglenn · February 2018

RobD said:

Roger said:
Jacob Rees Mogg now trying a character assassination of John Major. Tories can't resist eating their own feet.

At last the anti Brexit movement is starting to bite
18 months too late, if it is.

The Brexiteers have to survive another year... They did the political equivalent of running a 4 minute mile at the start of a marathon and have somehow staggered to the half way point but still have a 13 mile death march to go.

Sean_F · February 2018

Roger said:

another_richard said:

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"
' One of the things that always makes me furious is the knee-jerk stupidity of saying that the Daily Mail used to support fascism, thereby implying that it is somehow tainted goods in its modern form.

I certainly have my differences with the politics of the modern Mail, but it is blind prejudice to link what it published, for a brief period, in the 1930s to what it does today.

So I was delighted to see on Anna Raccoon's blog last week a piece by Matt Wardman in which he presented a media history lesson.

He omitted a crucial fact and I'll come to that in a moment. But he made two very important points - firstly, the Mail was not the only paper to carry articles supporting Oswald Mosley's blackshirts. The Daily Mirror did too.

Secondly, trying to criticise the 2011 Mail by pointing to an 80-year-old aberration lacks any value whatsoever. It not only had no lasting effect on the Mail. It had almost no effect even at the time. '

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Someone might also say that choosing to live as you do in such an openly racist country might make you an unsuitable person for commenting on such an issue.
Aren't you missing the point that the Mail's character assassination is based on a leaflet Mosely is alleged to have written 56 years ago?

It's more than character assassination. Under cross-examination, when he sued The Sun, he denied having written the leaflet in question.

steve_garner · February 2018

SouthamObserver said:
The Moggster revealed as a plonker in an interview on C4 News. Behind the accent and affectations he’s just another son of privilege with a mediocre mind.

You forgot Brexit Loon, that's your favourite description is it not?

Ishmael_Z · February 2018

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .

He was merely competent, actually (admittedly a rarer quality in UKIP than in real life). To say he "broke Britain" overrates him. Anyway, my point was that some are better placed than others to criticise him.

Sean_F · February 2018

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.

The most obvious point is the one that rarely gets raised. Most British voters were unhappy with the way the EU had developed.

Jonathan · February 2018

SouthamObserver said:
The Moggster revealed as a plonker in an interview on C4 News. Behind the accent and affectations he’s just another son of privilege with a mediocre mind.

They've been captured by a romantic nostalgic vision of a Britain that never was. Practical , pragmatic ideas on how Brexit might work were never developed. You know, the stuff Conservatives used to pride themselves on.

Foxy · February 2018

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

Roger said:
Jacob Rees Mogg now trying a character assassination of John Major. Tories can't resist eating their own feet.

At last the anti Brexit movement is starting to bite
18 months too late, if it is.
The Brexiteers have to survive another year... They did the political equivalent of running a 4 minute mile at the start of a marathon and have somehow staggered to the half way point but still have a 13 mile death march to go.

Nah. Brexit is happening. It will be shite that everyone objects to for different reasons, but it will happen.

Floater · February 2018

saddo said:
2 interesting games going on today.

John Major blowing his chances of ever being considered a wise old man again with his anti Brexit rant. Given he stiffed us all with Maastricht in the 1st place, he's lost his impact into the future.

Labour's collaborating with Barnier. Corbyn always was stupid but this is madness for Labour.

A chance of power obviously trumps any principles they might have held.

bigjohnowls · February 2018

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.

You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.

Jonathan · February 2018

Ishmael_Z said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
He was merely competent, actually (admittedly a rarer quality in UKIP than in real life). To say he "broke Britain" overrates him. Anyway, my point was that some are better placed than others to criticise him.

Look at UKIP for an example of the wake of destruction he leaves behind him. That's his Brexit.

MaxPB · February 2018

Anorak said:

another_richard said:

rkrkrk said:

Pulpstar said:
The DUP having necessarily to give confidence and supply to the government is handy for them in the negotiation over Ireland. May knows if she signed the current draft they'd stop supporting the govt pdq.So she cant, even if she wanted to.
We also know that the DUP rejected her first attempt at a deal.

So May can either screw the Good Friday Agreement, the DUP or her Brexiteers.
She can’t do #2 (unless the parliamentary arithmetic changes) and she won’t do #3, so all that is left is #1. There will be a hard Border and there will be tedious arguments about how hard it really is.

But there’s no way this is going to stop Brexit.
It might be a Hard border in theory but ten thousand troops weren't able to make it a hard border in practice.
So we only stop the legitimate trade. Sounds an ideal solution, and it's nice and expensive as a special bonus (more GDP!!).

Hmmm.

Tbh, that's not the UK's problem. If the Irish want to dig in over this it's their wealth that drains away.

rawzer · February 2018

another_richard said:

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"
' One of the things that always makes me furious is the knee-jerk stupidity of saying that the Daily Mail used to support fascism, thereby implying that it is somehow tainted goods in its modern form.

I certainly have my differences with the politics of the modern Mail, but it is blind prejudice to link what it published, for a brief period, in the 1930s to what it does today.

So I was delighted to see on Anna Raccoon's blog last week a piece by Matt Wardman in which he presented a media history lesson.

He omitted a crucial fact and I'll come to that in a moment. But he made two very important points - firstly, the Mail was not the only paper to carry articles supporting Oswald Mosley's blackshirts. The Daily Mirror did too.

Secondly, trying to criticise the 2011 Mail by pointing to an 80-year-old aberration lacks any value whatsoever. It not only had no lasting effect on the Mail. It had almost no effect even at the time. '

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Someone might also say that choosing to live as you do in such an openly racist country might make you an unsuitable person for commenting on such an issue.

The Hurrah! was for Max's dad and Mussolini rather than Hitler. I would have a lot more sympathy for the 'it was all a long time ago' defence of the Mail if it wasn't happy to rake up everyone else's past when it suits them.

There were a lot of smatterings of support for Mosley in the British press at the time, but no other paper adopted him in quite such a structured form as the Mail. No one else ran a full page back cover photo of him with Our Future Leader as a caption or a beauty competition for female blackshirts for example.

On the other hand the association was fairly short lived and died off after the Olympia rally violence and it was all before the full horror of what fascism in Europe and particularly in Germany would spawn was as clear as it is with our 2020 hindsight

brendan16 · February 2018

Mortimer said:

Roger said:
Jacob Rees Mogg now trying a character assassination of John Major. Tories can't resist eating their own feet.

At last the anti Brexit movement is starting to bite
Remind me when JM allowed a free vote on the EU?

He didn't just not allow a free vote he turned the vote on Maastricht in 1993 into a vote of no confidence which meant Tory MPs had little choice but to vote in favour or face losing the whip or deselection.

It is therefore perfectly reasonable to criticise his hypocrisy on this issue.

Floater · February 2018

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .

Err - New Labour did more than their fair share.

Jonathan · February 2018

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.
You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.

Lions led by donkeys.

steve_garner · February 2018

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.
You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.
Lions led by donkeys.

They may have been donkeys, but they outwitted Remain's donkeys and against all the odds.

Cyclefree · February 2018

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?

If that bothers you Channel 4 was doing exactly the same thing.

Focusing on the messenger and ignoring the message is really pretty stupid.

Max Mosley has been funding the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party.

He has been funding Impress which seeks to regulate the press in this country.

He is trying to use the data protection laws to stop people knowing these things about him, saying anything about them and indeed keeping any sort of record about him.

It is also possible that he may have lied on oath during the libel trial. Perjury is a very serious offence. It is very relevant to know if the man who is funding the organisation which seeks to regulate the press has committed such a serious offence.

Quite a lot of people and organisations in the past supported people or causes with very questionable views. For instance, the current leader of the Labour Party has appointed as a part-time advisor a man who for 40 years was a member of a party which once supported Russia's alliance with Hitler and as a result refused to fight against Hitler, while others fought to defend their country.

The obsession with Rothermere's support for appeasement while overlooking similar failings in others seems to be a deflection from ever having to engage with what they write now. It is not a paper I read. But that does not mean that like all newspapers they may not now and again do some good journalism or uncover matters which others prefer to hide.

Max Mosley is seeking to use his considerable wealth to determine what gets published in this country and what press policies the main opposition party might adopt. He is just the same as those billionaires press owners the Labour Party rant about, though their ranting is muted when the wealthy person is on their side. Scrutiny of what he has said and done is entirely proper in the circumstances.

brendan16 · February 2018

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .

UKIP and Farage only succeeded for a while and Brexit happened because of the complete abject failure of liberal Tories, New Labour and Lib Dems to even recognise let alone address the concerns of millions of voters who see little hope for any improvement in their lot let alone their kids.

Now of course many of those same people are turning to Corbyn.

williamglenn · February 2018

"Brexit Is Getting Far Too Much Attention"

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-28/brexit-is-already-forgotten-in-most-of-the-world

It doesn't take a psychoanalyst to see that the frenzy of attention devoted to Brexit reveals what Britain's apologists already know deep down: They have lost. The U.K. is not at risk of falling in the world. It has already fallen.

another_richard · February 2018

Roger said:

another_richard said:

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"
' One of the things that always makes me furious is the knee-jerk stupidity of saying that the Daily Mail used to support fascism, thereby implying that it is somehow tainted goods in its modern form.

I certainly have my differences with the politics of the modern Mail, but it is blind prejudice to link what it published, for a brief period, in the 1930s to what it does today.

So I was delighted to see on Anna Raccoon's blog last week a piece by Matt Wardman in which he presented a media history lesson.

He omitted a crucial fact and I'll come to that in a moment. But he made two very important points - firstly, the Mail was not the only paper to carry articles supporting Oswald Mosley's blackshirts. The Daily Mirror did too.

Secondly, trying to criticise the 2011 Mail by pointing to an 80-year-old aberration lacks any value whatsoever. It not only had no lasting effect on the Mail. It had almost no effect even at the time. '

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Someone might also say that choosing to live as you do in such an openly racist country might make you an unsuitable person for commenting on such an issue.
Aren't you missing the point that the Mail's character assassination is based on a leaflet Mosely is alleged to have written 56 years ago?

But you mentioned 'Hurrah to the Blackshirts' which was written 84 years ago.

You can't have it both ways Roger.

Not to mention Lord Rothermere has been dead since 1940.

Sean_F · February 2018

rawzer said:

another_richard said:

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"
' One of the things that always makes me furious is the knee-jerk stupidity of saying that the Daily Mail used to support fascism, thereby implying that it is somehow tainted goods in its modern form.

I certainly have my differences with the politics of the modern Mail, but it is blind prejudice to link what it published, for a brief period, in the 1930s to what it does today.

So I was delighted to see on Anna Raccoon's blog last week a piece by Matt Wardman in which he presented a media history lesson.

He omitted a crucial fact and I'll come to that in a moment. But he made two very important points - firstly, the Mail was not the only paper to carry articles supporting Oswald Mosley's blackshirts. The Daily Mirror did too.

Secondly, trying to criticise the 2011 Mail by pointing to an 80-year-old aberration lacks any value whatsoever. It not only had no lasting effect on the Mail. It had almost no effect even at the time. '

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Someone might also say that choosing to live as you do in such an openly racist country might make you an unsuitable person for commenting on such an issue.
The Hurrah! was for Max's dad and Mussolini rather than Hitler. I would have a lot more sympathy for the 'it was all a long time ago' defence of the Mail if it wasn't happy to rake up everyone else's past when it suits them.

ht

The important point is that Max Mosley made a statement under oath which was untrue.

Barnesian · February 2018

Foxy said:

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

Roger said:
Jacob Rees Mogg now trying a character assassination of John Major. Tories can't resist eating their own feet.

At last the anti Brexit movement is starting to bite
18 months too late, if it is.
The Brexiteers have to survive another year... They did the political equivalent of running a 4 minute mile at the start of a marathon and have somehow staggered to the half way point but still have a 13 mile death march to go.
Nah. Brexit is happening. It will be shite that everyone objects to for different reasons, but it will happen.

Punters on Betfair reckon there is about a 20% chance it won't happen before 2022 if at all.

steve_garner · February 2018

Mortimer said:

Roger said:

another_richard said:

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"
' One of the things that always makes me furious is the knee-jerk stupidity of saying that the Daily Mail used to support fascism, thereby implying that it is somehow tainted goods in its modern form.

I certainly have my differences with the politics of the modern Mail, but it is blind prejudice to link what it published, for a brief period, in the 1930s to what it does today.

So I was delighted to see on Anna Raccoon's blog last week a piece by Matt Wardman in which he presented a media history lesson.

He omitted a crucial fact and I'll come to that in a moment. But he made two very important points - firstly, the Mail was not the only paper to carry articles supporting Oswald Mosley's blackshirts. The Daily Mirror did too.

Secondly, trying to criticise the 2011 Mail by pointing to an 80-year-old aberration lacks any value whatsoever. It not only had no lasting effect on the Mail. It had almost no effect even at the time. '

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Someone might also say that choosing to live as you do in such an openly racist country might make you an unsuitable person for commenting on such an issue.
Aren't you missing the point that the Mail's character assassination is based on a leaflet Mosely is alleged to have written 56 years ago?
Erm, Roge old pal, you just criticised the Mail based on something brought up 80 years ago....

Distracting from Labour's problem with Mosley today by turning it into being about the Daily Mail 80 years ago.

FF43 · February 2018

hamiltonace said:
I agree there is no real prospect of a hard Brexit anymore. What is a shame is that a soft Brexit also seems to be slipping away. The Brexiters seem to have run out of ideas and rather than building consensus they are trying pointlessly to ram it through.

Brexit is a miserable business. No-one gains from it apart from a couple of pig farmers, maybe, some lawyers and those whose job it is to impose red tape and extra costs. We're stuck with it. Democracy necessarily trumps common sense.

Floater · February 2018

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.

Hang on - from that we are more tolerant than some of the EU core countries ... but, but I keep getting told we are the xenophobic ones

Seriously though, France is not a tolerant country and Pakistan is far from tolerant if you look at religious freedoms and treatment of minority religions.

Cyclefree · February 2018

Roger said:

another_richard said:

Roger said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:
OT. Re the Daily Mail digging into Max Mosley's writings of the early 60's.

Does anyone think the Mail is a suitable organ to be judging anyone's racist past?
In the case of Max Mosley, yes.
The Newspaper who headlined one of its paeans to Hitler "Hurrah for the Blackshirts?"
' One of the things that always makes me furious is the knee-jerk stupidity of saying that the Daily Mail used to support fascism, thereby implying that it is somehow tainted goods in its modern form.

I certainly have my differences with the politics of the modern Mail, but it is blind prejudice to link what it published, for a brief period, in the 1930s to what it does today.

So I was delighted to see on Anna Raccoon's blog last week a piece by Matt Wardman in which he presented a media history lesson.

He omitted a crucial fact and I'll come to that in a moment. But he made two very important points - firstly, the Mail was not the only paper to carry articles supporting Oswald Mosley's blackshirts. The Daily Mirror did too.

Secondly, trying to criticise the 2011 Mail by pointing to an 80-year-old aberration lacks any value whatsoever. It not only had no lasting effect on the Mail. It had almost no effect even at the time. '

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Someone might also say that choosing to live as you do in such an openly racist country might make you an unsuitable person for commenting on such an issue.
Aren't you missing the point that the Mail's character assassination is based on a leaflet Mosely is alleged to have written 56 years ago?

You're missing the point. During his libel trial Mosley claimed that he had never written or been involved with such a leaflet. So it is possible that what he said on oath was untrue and, if so (and there were a number of other claims he may have made which appear to be contradicted by this leaflet and other material) that this might have affected the outcome of the trial.

It is about his credibility and integrity and about the integrity of the libel proceedings. These are not trivial matters.

Jonathan · February 2018

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.
You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.
Lions led by donkeys.
They may have been donkeys, but they outwitted Remain's donkeys and against all the odds.

We were promised control and more money for public services

We got chaos, division, no control and less cash.

Ishmael_Z · February 2018

rawzer said:

The Hurrah! was for Max's dad and Mussolini rather than Hitler. I would have a lot more sympathy for the 'it was all a long time ago' defence of the Mail if it wasn't happy to rake up everyone else's past when it suits them.

There were a lot of smatterings of support for Mosley in the British press at the time, but no other paper adopted him in quite such a structured form as the Mail. No one else ran a full page back cover photo of him with Our Future Leader as a caption or a beauty competition for female blackshirts for example.

On the other hand the association was fairly short lived and died off after the Olympia rally violence and it was all before the full horror of what fascism in Europe and particularly in Germany would spawn was as clear as it is with our 2020 hindsight

PG Wodehouse nailed Oswald Mosley in The Code of the Woosters (1938), where Bertie says to Roderick Spode (=Mosley)

“The trouble with you, Spode, is that just because you have succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, you think you're someone. You hear them shouting "Heil, Spode!" and you imagine it is the Voice of the People. That is where you make your bloomer. What the Voice of the People is saying is: "Look at that frightful ass Spode swanking about in footer bags! Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?”

brendan16 · February 2018

kyf_100 said:

MikeSmithson said:

kyf_100 said:
FPT

Roger said:
For the first time in months I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to happen. And it's not just because almost everyone with a measurable IQ is against it but because Ireland is finally deeply involved. The Irish don't think in weeks months years or even decades. They think in centuries. And when a significant section of the population dig their heels in they stay dug in.
I hate to be the one who has to say this, but if you think "We can't leave, because it would mean a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" is going to be an acceptable reason for cancelling Brexit to the vast majority of the 52% who voted Brexit, I want some of what you're smoking.

People voted for Brexit. "The Irish won't wear it! We're staying!" is basically a recipe for Prime Minister Farage.
Did they?
I think the last time this topic came up SeanT calmly suggested we fire a small tactical nuke in the general direction of County Kerry. While he's never one to shy away from hyperbole, I pointed out at the time that I expected the man-in-the-pub reaction to be somewhat similar.

Brexit feels to me at least in part to be a very British two-fingers-up at authority type thing and I said at the time that the government would have a hard time selling the fact that the political nuances of the border between Northern Ireland and the RoI necessitated the overruling of his vote to your average pub drinker in Hartlepool. In such a circumstance I can imagine a resurgence of the UKIP vote.

What have the poor people of Kerry done to deserve that? They continue to elect the hilarious Healy-Rae family dynasty to the Dail - for that they deserve great thanks for adding to the gaiety of Irish politics.

If you are going to nuke anywhere it should be Dublin 4 - where the elites live!

Here are Michael and Danny Healy Rae in action in the Dail - they represent 40 per cent of the Kerry county TD delegation.

https://youtu.be/i3r8IBlVtys

steve_garner · February 2018

Jonathan said:

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.
You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.
Lions led by donkeys.
They may have been donkeys, but they outwitted Remain's donkeys and against all the odds.
We were promised control and more money for public services

We got chaos, division, no control and less cash.

How about you wait until we are out before telling us what we have and have not got from Brexit. Nobody said there's be "control and more money for public services" before we left. Lots of people however said there'd be an immediate recession after the vote.

Floater · February 2018

https://order-order.com/2018/02/28/labour-accused-colluding-barnier/

Is that really a good look for Labour?

Mortimer · February 2018

Barnesian said:

Foxy said:

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

Roger said:
Jacob Rees Mogg now trying a character assassination of John Major. Tories can't resist eating their own feet.

At last the anti Brexit movement is starting to bite
18 months too late, if it is.
The Brexiteers have to survive another year... They did the political equivalent of running a 4 minute mile at the start of a marathon and have somehow staggered to the half way point but still have a 13 mile death march to go.
Nah. Brexit is happening. It will be shite that everyone objects to for different reasons, but it will happen.

Punters on Betfair reckon there is about a 20% chance it won't happen before 2022 if at all.

And?

Wiley punters *buffs nails* got 15/1 on Brexit as polling stations closed....

another_richard · February 2018

williamglenn said:
"Brexit Is Getting Far Too Much Attention"

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-28/brexit-is-already-forgotten-in-most-of-the-world

It doesn't take a psychoanalyst to see that the frenzy of attention devoted to Brexit reveals what Britain's apologists already know deep down: They have lost. The U.K. is not at risk of falling in the world. It has already fallen.

In 1973.

Jonathan · February 2018

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.
You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.
Lions led by donkeys.
They may have been donkeys, but they outwitted Remain's donkeys and against all the odds.
We were promised control and more money for public services

We got chaos, division, no control and less cash.

How about you wait until we are out before telling us what we have and have not got from Brexit. Nobody said there's be "control and more money for public services" before we left. Lots of people however said there'd be an immediate recession after the vote.

Oh. It's all going to plan. I see.

Gardenwalker · February 2018

I’m in Paris, drinking very good wine at very good prices, so I’m just catching up with the day’s news.

Seems Major’s speech went down well with at least one swing(ing) voter:

https://twitter.com/pjstringfellow/status/968867797890748416

williamglenn · February 2018

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.
You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.
Lions led by donkeys.
They may have been donkeys, but they outwitted Remain's donkeys and against all the odds.
We were promised control and more money for public services

We got chaos, division, no control and less cash.

How about you wait until we are out before telling us what we have and have not got from Brexit. Nobody said there's be "control and more money for public services" before we left. Lots of people however said there'd be an immediate recession after the vote.

We certainly aren't getting this:

"Boris Johnson: Brexit would not affect Irish border" - 29 February 2016

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

Sean_F · February 2018

Jonathan said:

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.
You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.
Lions led by donkeys.
They may have been donkeys, but they outwitted Remain's donkeys and against all the odds.
We were promised control and more money for public services

We got chaos, division, no control and less cash.

Public finances have improved since the Brexit vote.

rawzer · February 2018

Ishmael_Z said:

rawzer said:

The Hurrah! was for Max's dad and Mussolini rather than Hitler. I would have a lot more sympathy for the 'it was all a long time ago' defence of the Mail if it wasn't happy to rake up everyone else's past when it suits them.

There were a lot of smatterings of support for Mosley in the British press at the time, but no other paper adopted him in quite such a structured form as the Mail. No one else ran a full page back cover photo of him with Our Future Leader as a caption or a beauty competition for female blackshirts for example.

On the other hand the association was fairly short lived and died off after the Olympia rally violence and it was all before the full horror of what fascism in Europe and particularly in Germany would spawn was as clear as it is with our 2020 hindsight
PG Wodehouse nailed Oswald Mosley in The Code of the Woosters (1938), where Bertie says to Roderick Spode (=Mosley)

“The trouble with you, Spode, is that just because you have succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, you think you're someone. You hear them shouting "Heil, Spode!" and you imagine it is the Voice of the People. That is where you make your bloomer. What the Voice of the People is saying is: "Look at that frightful ass Spode swanking about in footer bags! Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?”

Sounds about right

Big_G_NorthWales · February 2018

VAR causing controversy again with a good Spurs goal ruled out

steve_garner · February 2018

Floater said:
https://order-order.com/2018/02/28/labour-accused-colluding-barnier/

Is that really a good look for Labour?

Possibly not. Has Corbyn said yet whether he'd accept Barnier's Draft?

steve_garner · February 2018

williamglenn said:

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.
You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.
Lions led by donkeys.
They may have been donkeys, but they outwitted Remain's donkeys and against all the odds.
We were promised control and more money for public services

We got chaos, division, no control and less cash.

How about you wait until we are out before telling us what we have and have not got from Brexit. Nobody said there's be "control and more money for public services" before we left. Lots of people however said there'd be an immediate recession after the vote.
We certainly aren't getting this:

"Boris Johnson: Brexit would not affect Irish border" - 29 February 2016

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

You don't know yet.

Foxy · February 2018

steve_garner said:

Floater said:
https://order-order.com/2018/02/28/labour-accused-colluding-barnier/

Is that really a good look for Labour?
Possibly not. Has Corbyn said yet whether he'd accept Barnier's Draft?

May will accept it. She has no plan B, unless plan B was a GE...

Jonathan · February 2018

Sean_F said:

Jonathan said:

steve_garner said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

bigjohnowls said:

Jonathan said:

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

AndyJS said:
O/T

"People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.1ff7d1dd2769
India and Islamic countries (Pakistan a surprising exception) don't look good in that survey.

France neither - it seems Hartlepool is a beacon of tolerance compared to Roger's adopted country.
It's an idiosyncrasy of the site that all the flounciest bigotfinders-general tend to take time out from berating Mr Farage to brag about their bijou little retreat in some fascist muslim-baiting hellhole on what we used to call the continent.
Farage broke Britain . He deserves a little criticism .
I think the Liberal Elite Tory and Labour should take their share of the blame myself.
Nope. This little beauty is all on the Brexiteers and their half arsed, half baked ill thought through, nostalgic ego trip.
You mean the majority.

Do you have a problem with wanting electoral accountability and write it off as a nostalgic ego trip.
Lions led by donkeys.
They may have been donkeys, but they outwitted Remain's donkeys and against all the odds.
We were promised control and more money for public services

We got chaos, division, no control and less cash.

Public finances have improved since the Brexit vote.

So has Scottish rugby . Neither are connected . We're growing slower than we might have.

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