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Doesn't that top one require the UK to be out of the Single Market?AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
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If I may interject: The problem is that once you have to resort to calling people fascists you have already lost the argument.AlastairMeeks said:
I refer you to my more recent post, showing that you are fascistically interpreting the referendum vote to require features that you want and which are completely unwarranted by any evidence outside your own imaginings.stevef said:
My clear rationale for calling you a Remoaner is that you dont accept a democratic referendum, and you imagine disingenuously that 17 million people voted to leave the EU so that things could stay exactly the same with the EU continuing to control us via the Single Market and Customs Union. Thats a bit like saying that 40% voted Labour but they didnt vote to end tuition fees.AlastairMeeks said:
There was a court case in my area of law where the judge commented on advice given by a lawyer: "it did not even have the merit of ambiguity".CD13 said:Mr Meeks,
"I even gave a clear rationale for my use of the word fascist, complete with illustrative quotation."
I gave you a sort of compliment (clarity) and now you're thrown it back in my face. Some people are never satisfied.
It doesn't matter how technically correct your use of the word is or isn't.
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He was my kind of PM, when criticised he fought a duel with pistols with one his critics.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, Wellington was a terrible PM, wasn't he?
Would love a modern day PM do that.
But he was a bit of a rubbish PM, his anti Semitism would see him fit right in with the modern Labour party.0 -
The Swiss have a very sensible way of dramatically reducing unskilled immigration, despite allowing freedom of movement from the EU. Everyone needs to buy health insurance, and some packages (the cheap ones) are only available to Swiss nationals. So, if you want to go and wait tables in Geneva, you're going to be ponying up almost £5,000/year for health insurance. That's quite a disincentive for low skilled workers to go Switzerland, especially as you'll need to fund your health insurance before you get a job. (As employers are breaking the law if they hire people without insurance.)RobD said:
Doesn't that top one require the UK to be out of the Single Market?AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Now: I'm not saying this is the path we want to go down. But it does show how poor the political classes have been in the UK at even putting in the kind of restrictions on low skilled immigration that were possible in the EU.0 -
You may interject. You are, however, wrong. If people behave technically like fascists, the point must be made.MarkHopkins said:
If I may interject: The problem is that once you have to resort to calling people fascists you have already lost the argument.AlastairMeeks said:
I refer you to my more recent post, showing that you are fascistically interpreting the referendum vote to require features that you want and which are completely unwarranted by any evidence outside your own imaginings.stevef said:
My clear rationale for calling you a Remoaner is that you dont accept a democratic referendum, and you imagine disingenuously that 17 million people voted to leave the EU so that things could stay exactly the same with the EU continuing to control us via the Single Market and Customs Union. Thats a bit like saying that 40% voted Labour but they didnt vote to end tuition fees.AlastairMeeks said:
There was a court case in my area of law where the judge commented on advice given by a lawyer: "it did not even have the merit of ambiguity".CD13 said:Mr Meeks,
"I even gave a clear rationale for my use of the word fascist, complete with illustrative quotation."
I gave you a sort of compliment (clarity) and now you're thrown it back in my face. Some people are never satisfied.
It doesn't matter how technically correct your use of the word is or isn't.
Fake appeals to the Will of the People take you down a very dangerous path indeed.0 -
AlastairMeeks said:
The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Is that supposed to back up the case for 'soft-Brexit'?0 -
I thought he would be leader after May.However it was not the confident Liberal Conservative , Mayor of london speaking but a more dour person , like a tribute band going through the motions in a working man's club on a wet Wednesday .Big_G_NorthWales said:Boris is Boris and enthuses as many as he upsets but nothing he said today compromises TM who is meeting Merkel on Friday before making a big speech in Munich on Saturday.
There follows other speeches before TM puts the Government's position on the table in a couple of weeks.
It is that speech that will define Brexit.
Boris is colourful but not my choice of next leader.
Indeed the way things are going and the rise of the sisterhood I am more convinced than ever that the next leader will be female again.0 -
Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.-1 -
rcs1000 said:
The Swiss have a very sensible way of dramatically reducing unskilled immigration, despite allowing freedom of movement from the EU. Everyone needs to buy health insurance, and some packages (the cheap ones) are only available to Swiss nationals. So, if you want to go and wait tables in Geneva, you're going to be ponying up almost £5,000/year for health insurance. That's quite a disincentive for low skilled workers to go Switzerland, especially as you'll need to fund your health insurance before you get a job. (As employers are breaking the law if they hire people without insurance.)RobD said:
Doesn't that top one require the UK to be out of the Single Market?AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Now: I'm not saying this is the path we want to go down. But it does show how poor the political classes have been in the UK at even putting in the kind of restrictions on low skilled immigration that were possible in the EU.
To get away with that, the Swiss would need to be allowed to treat EU workers differently from their own nationals.
The UK was not allowed to do that in the EU.
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It's supposed to point out that the many incidental details which many of the wilder Leavers now mysteriously regard as essential if Brexit is not going to be a betrayal of the British people simply are not required.SunnyJim said:AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Is that supposed to back up the case for 'soft-Brexit'?
From the day the referendum result came in, I have been of the view that no version of Brexit that omitted immigration control was sustainable. I remain of that view.
The latest idea is that any Brexit that requires Britain to leave the customs union is a betrayal of the People's Will. That's hogwash.0 -
I will not vote Boris and still expect TM to guide us to a deal with a female to follow her into postYorkcity said:
I thought he would be leader after May.However it was not the confident Liberal Conservative , Mayor of london speaking but a more dour person , like a tribute band going through the motions in a working man's club on a wet Wednesday .Big_G_NorthWales said:Boris is Boris and enthuses as many as he upsets but nothing he said today compromises TM who is meeting Merkel on Friday before making a big speech in Munich on Saturday.
There follows other speeches before TM puts the Government's position on the table in a couple of weeks.
It is that speech that will define Brexit.
Boris is colourful but not my choice of next leader.
Indeed the way things are going and the rise of the sisterhood I am more convinced than ever that the next leader will be female again.0 -
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.0 -
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.0 -
The last time I was in Geneva there were a lot of non-Swiss people waiting tables!MarkHopkins said:rcs1000 said:
The Swiss have a very sensible way of dramatically reducing unskilled immigration, despite allowing freedom of movement from the EU. Everyone needs to buy health insurance, and some packages (the cheap ones) are only available to Swiss nationals. So, if you want to go and wait tables in Geneva, you're going to be ponying up almost £5,000/year for health insurance. That's quite a disincentive for low skilled workers to go Switzerland, especially as you'll need to fund your health insurance before you get a job. (As employers are breaking the law if they hire people without insurance.)RobD said:
Doesn't that top one require the UK to be out of the Single Market?AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Now: I'm not saying this is the path we want to go down. But it does show how poor the political classes have been in the UK at even putting in the kind of restrictions on low skilled immigration that were possible in the EU.
To get away with that, the Swiss would need to be allowed to treat EU workers differently from their own nationals.
The UK was not allowed to do that in the EU.
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Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
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The dynamics are different, ironically because the USA is a sovereign state and not a multilateral treaty system like the EU.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.0 -
I was referring to the FTA that they just signed.williamglenn said:
The dynamics are different, ironically because the USA is a sovereign state and not a multilateral treaty system like the EU.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.0 -
So you dont that the UK should remain in the Single Market, since immigration control would be impossible inside it.?AlastairMeeks said:
It's supposed to point out that the many incidental details which many of the wilder Leavers now mysteriously regard as essential if Brexit is not going to be a betrayal of the British people simply are not required.SunnyJim said:AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Is that supposed to back up the case for 'soft-Brexit'?
From the day the referendum result came in, I have been of the view that no version of Brexit that omitted immigration control was sustainable. I remain of that view.
The latest idea is that any Brexit that requires Britain to leave the customs union is a betrayal of the People's Will. That's hogwash.0 -
No chance a deal would be made today otherwise it would have be known as the Cash For Ash Wednesday deal.calum said:
Joke stolen from elsewhere.0 -
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.0 -
I think you might be correct , it looks like Boris time has gone to be PM.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I will not vote Boris and still expect TM to guide us to a deal with a female to follow her into postYorkcity said:
I thought he would be leader after May.However it was not the confident Liberal Conservative , Mayor of london speaking but a more dour person , like a tribute band going through the motions in a working man's club on a wet Wednesday .Big_G_NorthWales said:Boris is Boris and enthuses as many as he upsets but nothing he said today compromises TM who is meeting Merkel on Friday before making a big speech in Munich on Saturday.
There follows other speeches before TM puts the Government's position on the table in a couple of weeks.
It is that speech that will define Brexit.
Boris is colourful but not my choice of next leader.
Indeed the way things are going and the rise of the sisterhood I am more convinced than ever that the next leader will be female again.0 -
I'm fine with staying in the customs union as long as FoM is no longer applicable.AlastairMeeks said:
It's supposed to point out that the many incidental details which many of the wilder Leavers now mysteriously regard as essential if Brexit is not going to be a betrayal of the British people simply are not required.SunnyJim said:AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Is that supposed to back up the case for 'soft-Brexit'?
From the day the referendum result came in, I have been of the view that no version of Brexit that omitted immigration control was sustainable. I remain of that view.
The latest idea is that any Brexit that requires Britain to leave the customs union is a betrayal of the People's Will. That's hogwash.
As you quite rightly say though, no version of Brexit is acceptable that doesn't include the right of the UK to decide how it controls its immigration policy.0 -
There is no evidence other than pure speculation that either would crash the economy.stevef said:
Its Jeremy Corbyn, who would be the first Leaver to be PM in our history who would crash the economy.Gardenwalker said:
Except that we need access to the hotel room to stop the economy crashing.stevef said:
We would have left in name only but still be under the control of the EU exactly the same as before.Benpointer said:
Er... well, we'd no longer be in the EU - we'd have left, in fact.stevef said:
Norwegians did not vote to leave the EU. We did,Benpointer said:
Is Norway in the EU?stevef said:If we stayed in the Single Market as Remoaners wish (the so called "Soft Brexit), then nothing would change as a result of the UK leaving. We would still be under EU control regarding our borders and laws. It would be as if Remain had won after all.
The whole premise of the referendum was whether we should "take back control". Both sides acknowledged that leaving the EU in more than just name would require us to leave the Single Market. My copy of the Remain campaign booklet stated it.
Norway is under the control of the EU. Norway has to accept EU laws and Freedom of Movement.
How would that satisfy those who voted Leave?
EDIT: I accept it wouldn't satisfy the true-believers - the zealots. But wnat proportion of the 52% do you think they constitute?
How would anyone -zealot or not -who voted leave be satisfied by things staying as they were before?
What proportion of remainers are zealots who want a federal Europe and want the EU to control our borders and laws.
The great mass of the people are moderates, but they do want the UK to be able to control its own laws and borders and when they vote for something they dont expect nothing to change. if they voted to "take back control" they dont expect the EU to still be in control.
If I check out of a hotel room I dont expect to still be billed for it.
But there is no hard evidence other than pure speculation that Brexit will crash the economy.0 -
Meeks, than man with his finger on the pulse of the nation.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
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Mr. Meeks, I'm not so sure. It seems far likelier that many are shy Leavers because of the abuse that would otherwise be heaped their way. Why you seem comfortable counting yourself amongst those content to make others afraid to express a mainstream, (majority, indeed), opinion is beyond me.
https://twitter.com/_HelenDale/status/9637009261199073280 -
This is what I wrote in August 2016:stevef said:
So you dont that the UK should remain in the Single Market, since immigration control would be impossible inside it.?
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/08/05/alastair-meeks-argues-that-any-cuts-or-tax-rises-caused-by-brexit-be-borne-primarily-by-those-groups-that-voted-leave/
"The referendum result cannot be finessed, sidestepped or ignored. While the referendum was formally advisory, Leave secured the largest vote ever for its victory. The people have spoken, the bastards, and their will must be followed. There is no point hoping for events to show the folly of that vote. The EU is unlikely to countenance Britain staying in now, whatever happens.
Some Leavers have been openly touting an EEA-style approach, hoping to co-opt the Remainers to their own light touch free trade vision while preserving freedom of movement. Remainers should not touch this proposal with a bargepole. This would rightly be seen by the bulk of Leavers as a complete betrayal of their vote (for which Remainers rather than the cynical free trader Leavers would be blamed), which was won off the back of posters inflaming fears about unrestricted immigration and refugees. Disgraceful as that campaign was, Remainers have to accept that the settled view of the public is that immigration needs to be controlled more. The settlement with the rest of the EU will need to include the ability to restrict freedom of movement. This is likely to be very costly but that cost was one that the public explicitly signed up for. They can’t say that they weren’t warned.
Beyond that, Remainers have more of a free hand...
What of the trade deal with the EU? For anyone who does not regard the EU as the incarnation of the whore of Babylon, which presumably includes all Remainers, it seems self-evident that Britain should want as full an economic partnership with the EU as it can secure. It remains overwhelmingly the largest single destination for its exports...
The bigger threat comes from the other side. The EU is unlikely to offer untrammelled access without freedom of movement and the EU public is expecting the EU to take a hard line. Even an inferior level of co-operation is going to need to secure broadbased support within the EU member states. With so many different interests, that broadbased support is likely to be a very long time coming. But again, the public can’t say they weren’t warned on this either."
I wouldn't change much of that now.
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Why should Leavers care about the opinion of those who despise them? We’re not responsible for the emotional incontinence of a small but exceptionally vocal minority of Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
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RobD said:
Meeks, than man with his finger on the pulse of the nation.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
The more I read from the cretin the more I think he may just be a troll.0 -
Millions waking up in the middle of the night angry about Brexit? Nope.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
Of my non political pals, I'm one of a handful of Leavers I know. Almost everyone has moved on. There are simply not millions waking up in the night feeling angry about Brexit.0 -
This lack of curiosity on Leavers' part about their inability to gain converts is something I intend returning to in a thread header. At the same time that Leavers demonstrate bizarre paranoia, they seem oblivious to what is the greatest long term threat to their mad hobbyhorse.RoyalBlue said:
Why should Leavers care about the opinion of those who despise them? We’re not responsible for the emotional incontinence of a small but exceptionally vocal minority of Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
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Am I the only one to simply have pity for a person who wakes up in the middle of the night unbelievably angry at something they cannot change?0
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The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the pieceAlastairMeeks said:
This is what I wrote in August 2016:stevef said:
So you dont that the UK should remain in the Single Market, since immigration control would be impossible inside it.?
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/08/05/alastair-meeks-argues-that-any-cuts-or-tax-rises-caused-by-brexit-be-borne-primarily-by-those-groups-that-voted-leave/
"The referendum result cannot be finessed, sidestepped or ignored. While the referendum was formally advisory, Leave secured the largest vote ever for its victory. The people have spoken, the bastards, and their will must be followed. There is no point hoping for events to show the folly of that vote. The EU is unlikely to countenance Britain staying in now, whatever happens.
Some Leavers have been openly touting an EEA-style approach, hoping to co-opt the Remainers to their own light touch free trade vision while preserving freedom of movement. Remainers should not touch this proposal with a bargepole. This would rightly be seen by the bulk of Leavers as a complete betrayal of their vote (for which Remainers rather than the cynical free trader Leavers would be blamed), which was won off the back of posters inflaming fears about unrestricted immigration and refugees. Disgraceful as that campaign was, Remainers have to accept that the settled view of the public is that immigration needs to be controlled more. The settlement with the rest of the EU will need to include the ability to restrict freedom of movement. This is likely to be very costly but that cost was one that the public explicitly signed up for. They can’t say that they weren’t warned.
Beyond that, Remainers have more of a free hand...
What of the trade deal with the EU? For anyone who does not regard the EU as the incarnation of the whore of Babylon, which presumably includes all Remainers, it seems self-evident that Britain should want as full an economic partnership with the EU as it can secure. It remains overwhelmingly the largest single destination for its exports...
The bigger threat comes from the other side. The EU is unlikely to offer untrammelled access without freedom of movement and the EU public is expecting the EU to take a hard line. Even an inferior level of co-operation is going to need to secure broadbased support within the EU member states. With so many different interests, that broadbased support is likely to be a very long time coming. But again, the public can’t say they weren’t warned on this either."
I wouldn't change much of that now.0 -
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
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Are you sure about this? The actual insurance is provided by private companies to a specification set by each canton. You would normally go for the cheapest insurance that provides the specification although you may want to top it up to a higher specification, which is where the insurance companies make their money. Cantons have their own version of income support that gives you subsidies on health insurance. These are complicated and have a residence qualification - ie you need to be living and working in the canton - but not as far as I know a nationality qualification, although that might depend on the canton.rcs1000 said:
The Swiss have a very sensible way of dramatically reducing unskilled immigration, despite allowing freedom of movement from the EU. Everyone needs to buy health insurance, and some packages (the cheap ones) are only available to Swiss nationals. So, if you want to go and wait tables in Geneva, you're going to be ponying up almost £5,000/year for health insurance. That's quite a disincentive for low skilled workers to go Switzerland, especially as you'll need to fund your health insurance before you get a job. (As employers are breaking the law if they hire people without insurance.)RobD said:
Doesn't that top one require the UK to be out of the Single Market?AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Now: I'm not saying this is the path we want to go down. But it does show how poor the political classes have been in the UK at even putting in the kind of restrictions on low skilled immigration that were possible in the EU.0 -
Very true , there are worse things in life for many , to worry about.Mortimer said:
Millions waking up in the middle of the night angry about Brexit? Nope.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
Of my non political pals, I'm one of a handful of Leavers I know. Almost everyone has moved on. There are simply not millions waking up in the night feeling angry about Brexit.0 -
Who do you mean by Leavers? A group of eccentrics (or worse) around Westminster or all the people who voted for it?Roger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.0 -
Indeed! A couple of months ago I met up with an old friend. He's fiercely right-wing about everything, but on the subject of Brexit and Leavers (to my surprise) was absolutely spitting blood. In the end it was me who had to make the soothing noises about Leavers ('I'm sure they did it for all the best reasons'), but I don't think he was having it.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.0 -
Do not go gentle unto that good night...Roger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.0 -
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes0 -
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
0 -
Oh but they can. To quote Angela Davis, people are not accepting what they can’t change; they are changing what they can’t accept. The same thing that drove Eurosceptics to go into politics is creating their mirror image.TheWhiteRabbit said:Am I the only one to simply have pity for a person who wakes up in the middle of the night unbelievably angry at something they cannot change?
https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/9638308960707092480 -
Immigration is an ironic totum for Brexit given that no-one with the power shows the slightest inclination to restrict it. Exhibit A is Boris's speech today, when he spoke of taking back control of our borders and the impact on wages but only in the middle of a section on how great immigration is.SunnyJim said:
I'm fine with staying in the customs union as long as FoM is no longer applicable.AlastairMeeks said:
It's supposed to point out that the many incidental details which many of the wilder Leavers now mysteriously regard as essential if Brexit is not going to be a betrayal of the British people simply are not required.SunnyJim said:AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Is that supposed to back up the case for 'soft-Brexit'?
From the day the referendum result came in, I have been of the view that no version of Brexit that omitted immigration control was sustainable. I remain of that view.
The latest idea is that any Brexit that requires Britain to leave the customs union is a betrayal of the People's Will. That's hogwash.
As you quite rightly say though, no version of Brexit is acceptable that doesn't include the right of the UK to decide how it controls its immigration policy.0 -
On topic, lots of negative and sceptical comments about Boris on the radio news vote pop, which surely reflects the fact that Boris's mojo is gone as far as his future prospects are concerned.Roger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.0 -
To be fair Leavers consider Remoaners like you to be beneath contempt as well. Indeed anyone still whining about what might or might not happen as a result of Brexit is scorned. It is just that as a rule we have more manners than you and so don't bother letting you know what we really think of you. You simply aren't worth it.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.0 -
Trying to convert fanatics for the other side is a waste of time in any walk of life, including politics. It doesn’t bother me one iota that people like you, Soubry, Adonis and Umunna will be fuming about this until the end of your days. Once we’re out, there will be very little interest in revisiting this topic for a decade, after which we’ll benefit from the status quo vote Remain had last time. Brexit will be halted this year, or we’re out for good.AlastairMeeks said:
This lack of curiosity on Leavers' part about their inability to gain converts is something I intend returning to in a thread header. At the same time that Leavers demonstrate bizarre paranoia, they seem oblivious to what is the greatest long term threat to their mad hobbyhorse.RoyalBlue said:
Why should Leavers care about the opinion of those who despise them? We’re not responsible for the emotional incontinence of a small but exceptionally vocal minority of Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
Keep raging Alastair. If ultra-Remain fail, and we leave on 29th March 2019, it will make it all the sweeter.0 -
Did you campaign for Remain before the vote WG? To be honest your 'there is no Brexit in Baghdad' routine smacks of regret for not getting involved beforehand...williamglenn said:
Oh but they can. To quote Angela Davis, people are not accepting what they can’t change; they are changing what they can’t accept. The same thing that drove Eurosceptics to go into politics is creating their mirror image.TheWhiteRabbit said:Am I the only one to simply have pity for a person who wakes up in the middle of the night unbelievably angry at something they cannot change?
https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/9638308960707092480 -
But it turns fair minded leavers against you by your use of the unnecessary language.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
As a remain voter I just want TM to negotiate leave that allows us to make our own laws, trade and immigration otherwise we may as well remain. Norway is a silly idea as it does not fulfil the referendum.0 -
I have received a Valentine's poem from someone who, as is traditional on the day, is going to have to go under cover of anonymity but who has asked me to act as postman:
Valentines Day
Means hard work for Cupid
But when it comes to Brexit
“It was immigration, stupid”0 -
OK, I guess I just pity those who wake up very angry in the middle of the night in general.williamglenn said:
Oh but they can. To quote Angela Davis, people are not accepting what they can’t change; they are changing what they can’t accept. The same thing that drove Eurosceptics to go into politics is creating their mirror image.TheWhiteRabbit said:Am I the only one to simply have pity for a person who wakes up in the middle of the night unbelievably angry at something they cannot change?
https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/9638308960707092480 -
"Fair minded Leavers" need to consider whether they want to associate with people who regard as traitors anyone who doesn't sign up to their preferred version of Brexit. They are remarkably reluctant to dissociate themselves from that view, fascist though it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
But it turns fair minded leavers against you by your use of the unnecessary language.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
As a remain voter I just want TM to negotiate leave that allows us to make our own laws, trade and immigration otherwise we may as well remain. Norway is a silly idea as it does not fulfil the referendum.-1 -
Well surprise, surprise that arch remainer Adam Boulton gave him an easy ride and he did, I saw itwilliamglenn said:
Oh but they can. To quote Angela Davis, people are not accepting what they can’t change; they are changing what they can’t accept. The same thing that drove Eurosceptics to go into politics is creating their mirror image.TheWhiteRabbit said:Am I the only one to simply have pity for a person who wakes up in the middle of the night unbelievably angry at something they cannot change?
https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/9638308960707092480 -
What's Canada got to do with it? We are not Canada, Timbuktoo or North Korea.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.0 -
On present trends I am expecting Britain to be out of the EU on 29 March 2019 (I've bet rather a lot of money on that, as it happens). Also on present trends, it looks very possible that Britain could be rejoining before I reach state pension age. Leave need to win new converts if they are not going to find themselves seriously outnumbered in the not too distant future. Right now, they are doing their utmost to ensure that they don't.RoyalBlue said:
Trying to convert fanatics for the other side is a waste of time in any walk of life, including politics. It doesn’t bother me one iota that people like you, Soubry, Adonis and Umunna will be fuming about this until the end of your days. Once we’re out, there will be very little interest in revisiting this topic for a decade, after which we’ll benefit from the status quo vote Remain had last time. Brexit will be halted this year, or we’re out for good.AlastairMeeks said:
This lack of curiosity on Leavers' part about their inability to gain converts is something I intend returning to in a thread header. At the same time that Leavers demonstrate bizarre paranoia, they seem oblivious to what is the greatest long term threat to their mad hobbyhorse.RoyalBlue said:
Why should Leavers care about the opinion of those who despise them? We’re not responsible for the emotional incontinence of a small but exceptionally vocal minority of Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
Keep raging Alastair. If ultra-Remain fail, and we leave on 29th March 2019, it will make it all the sweeter.0 -
I give upAlastairMeeks said:
"Fair minded Leavers" need to consider whether they want to associate with people who regard as traitors anyone who doesn't sign up to their preferred version of Brexit. They are remarkably reluctant to dissociate themselves from that view, fascist though it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
But it turns fair minded leavers against you by your use of the unnecessary language.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
As a remain voter I just want TM to negotiate leave that allows us to make our own laws, trade and immigration otherwise we may as well remain. Norway is a silly idea as it does not fulfil the referendum.0 -
Indeed not. We're far better customers of the EU than any of them.FF43 said:
What's Canada got to do with it? We are not Canada, Timbuktoo or North Korea.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.
More seriously, 'close alignment' is the latest in a LONG list of things Remainers are stating must be retained. So far we've had SM and CU; I suspect the latest ditch will go the way of
The last two.
0 -
No, but a FTA that is similar to Canada would do quite nicely.FF43 said:
What's Canada got to do with it? We are not Canada, Timbuktoo or North Korea.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.0 -
I can at least applaud you hedging your undesired outcome in the markets. I should do the same.AlastairMeeks said:
On present trends I am expecting Britain to be out of the EU on 29 March 2019 (I've bet rather a lot of money on that, as it happens). Also on present trends, it looks very possible that Britain could be rejoining before I reach state pension age. Leave need to win new converts if they are not going to find themselves seriously outnumbered in the not too distant future. Right now, they are doing their utmost to ensure that they don't.RoyalBlue said:
Trying to convert fanatics for the other side is a waste of time in any walk of life, including politics. It doesn’t bother me one iota that people like you, Soubry, Adonis and Umunna will be fuming about this until the end of your days. Once we’re out, there will be very little interest in revisiting this topic for a decade, after which we’ll benefit from the status quo vote Remain had last time. Brexit will be halted this year, or we’re out for good.AlastairMeeks said:
This lack of curiosity on Leavers' part about their inability to gain converts is something I intend returning to in a thread header. At the same time that Leavers demonstrate bizarre paranoia, they seem oblivious to what is the greatest long term threat to their mad hobbyhorse.RoyalBlue said:
Why should Leavers care about the opinion of those who despise them? We’re not responsible for the emotional incontinence of a small but exceptionally vocal minority of Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
Keep raging Alastair. If ultra-Remain fail, and we leave on 29th March 2019, it will make it all the sweeter.0 -
I'm not doing any such thing. It's been the outstanding value bet of the last few months.RoyalBlue said:
I can at least applaud you hedging your undesired outcome in the markets. I should do the same.AlastairMeeks said:
On present trends I am expecting Britain to be out of the EU on 29 March 2019 (I've bet rather a lot of money on that, as it happens). Also on present trends, it looks very possible that Britain could be rejoining before I reach state pension age. Leave need to win new converts if they are not going to find themselves seriously outnumbered in the not too distant future. Right now, they are doing their utmost to ensure that they don't.RoyalBlue said:
Trying to convert fanatics for the other side is a waste of time in any walk of life, including politics. It doesn’t bother me one iota that people like you, Soubry, Adonis and Umunna will be fuming about this until the end of your days. Once we’re out, there will be very little interest in revisiting this topic for a decade, after which we’ll benefit from the status quo vote Remain had last time. Brexit will be halted this year, or we’re out for good.AlastairMeeks said:
This lack of curiosity on Leavers' part about their inability to gain converts is something I intend returning to in a thread header. At the same time that Leavers demonstrate bizarre paranoia, they seem oblivious to what is the greatest long term threat to their mad hobbyhorse.RoyalBlue said:
Why should Leavers care about the opinion of those who despise them? We’re not responsible for the emotional incontinence of a small but exceptionally vocal minority of Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you find that unlikely? There are probably millions in London alone.Mortimer said:
Millions. Lol. UnspoofableRoger said:Apropos Boris Johnson's speech.....
Matthew Parris has just said on radio 4 that he finds himself waking up in the middle of the night feeling really angry and he suspects many millions of Remainers do.
I'm sure he's right. My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level.
Leavers are quite clueless about just how much they are despised by many Remain supporters. In day-to-day life I'm a moderating influence on many who feel far more strongly about the subject of Brexit than I do.
Keep raging Alastair. If ultra-Remain fail, and we leave on 29th March 2019, it will make it all the sweeter.0 -
"Fair minded Remainers" need to consider whether they want Mr Meeks to be their standard bearer.....AlastairMeeks said:
"Fair minded Leavers" need to consider whether they want to associate with people who regard as traitors anyone who doesn't sign up to their preferred version of Brexit. They are remarkably reluctant to dissociate themselves from that view, fascist though it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
But it turns fair minded leavers against you by your use of the unnecessary language.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
As a remain voter I just want TM to negotiate leave that allows us to make our own laws, trade and immigration otherwise we may as well remain. Norway is a silly idea as it does not fulfil the referendum.0 -
Indeed. He is a poor advert for pro-EU supporters, screaming 'fascist' at every opportunity. He has made himself an object of derision.MarqueeMark said:
"Fair minded Remainers" need to consider whether they want Mr Meeks to be their standard bearer.....AlastairMeeks said:
"Fair minded Leavers" need to consider whether they want to associate with people who regard as traitors anyone who doesn't sign up to their preferred version of Brexit. They are remarkably reluctant to dissociate themselves from that view, fascist though it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
But it turns fair minded leavers against you by your use of the unnecessary language.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
As a remain voter I just want TM to negotiate leave that allows us to make our own laws, trade and immigration otherwise we may as well remain. Norway is a silly idea as it does not fulfil the referendum.0 -
Shock: Most people aren't following politics on a day to day basis. Boris' attempt to make the referendum a defining vote about customs and trade is silly (if that is what he has done) and will fail.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
In many ways I don't understand the level of hate going on. Many people voted to leave the EU because they were worried about immigration, felt they had been lied to for 40 years and didn't think the EU bureaucrats had a clue as to their concerns. I don't have a problem with that even if I didn't vote alongside them. I can't help but feel though that much of the anger from Remainers is from a group of middle-aged privileged people who are used to getting everything they want.
Robert Shrimsley wrote a good piece in the FT a while back. The people who lost their livelihoods under Thatcher or those who protested against the Iraq war or the students who felt betrayed by Clegg all in the end accepted that we live in a democracy and they are a very small part of it. I'm a cynic who takes the view that elites have never much liked democracy anyway but there is no road to harmony unless they accept it.0 -
+1FrankBooth said:
Shock: Most people aren't following politics on a day to day basis. Boris' attempt to make the referendum a defining vote about customs and trade is silly (if that is what he has done) and will fail.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
In many ways I don't understand the level of hate going on. Many people voted to leave the EU because they were worried about immigration, felt they had been lied to for 40 years and didn't think the EU bureaucrats had a clue as to their concerns. I don't have a problem with that even if I didn't vote alongside them. I can't help but feel though that much of the anger from Remainers is from a group of middle-aged privileged people who are used to getting everything they want.
Robert Shrimsley wrote a good piece in the FT a while back. The people who lost their livelihoods under Thatcher or those who protested against the Iraq war or the students who felt betrayed by Clegg all in the end accepted that we live in a democracy and they are a very small part of it. I'm a cynic who takes the view that elites have never much liked democracy anyway but there is no road to harmony unless they accept it.0 -
I think one of the things that isn't helping us is this idea that we MUST do this or that. There's no moral imperative here. Why can't people just tell us what their own preference is and argue the case for it - clean break/close alignment/second referendum.Mortimer said:
Indeed not. We're far better customers of the EU than any of them.FF43 said:
What's Canada got to do with it? We are not Canada, Timbuktoo or North Korea.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.
More seriously, 'close alignment' is the latest in a LONG list of things Remainers are stating must be retained. So far we've had SM and CU; I suspect the latest ditch will go the way of
The last two.0 -
This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.0 -
That's a good point. How different 2008 was from now.stevef said:This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.
0 -
Yep, there will have been another referendum and the UK will be part of a European Superstate...stevef said:This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.0 -
There may be no moral imperative for one thing or the other, but there is a political imperative to agree something, even if that something is to kick the van down the road.FrankBooth said:
I think one of the things that isn't helping us is this idea that we MUST do this or that. There's no moral imperative here. Why can't people just tell us what their own preference is and argue the case for it - clean break/close alignment/second referendum.Mortimer said:
Indeed not. We're far better customers of the EU than any of them.FF43 said:
What's Canada got to do with it? We are not Canada, Timbuktoo or North Korea.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.
More seriously, 'close alignment' is the latest in a LONG list of things Remainers are stating must be retained. So far we've had SM and CU; I suspect the latest ditch will go the way of
The last two.0 -
Trots rule the Red team.
Brexit-loons the Blue.
For a rational centrist
What the hell can you do?0 -
You hope!OchEye said:
Yep, there will have been another referendum and the UK will be part of a European Superstate...stevef said:This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.0 -
Looks like Merkel maybe facing new elections0
-
It would certainly be a lot better than No Deal; but it would be a far worse deal in terms of trade than we have now, so "quite nicely" is pushing it.RobD said:
No, but a FTA that is similar to Canada would do quite nicely.FF43 said:
What's Canada got to do with it? We are not Canada, Timbuktoo or North Korea.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.
0 -
I am not sure I understand that. Why is a belief that leaving the EU and/or campaigning to stay in the EU not coming to terms with democracy?stevef said:This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.
0 -
And, in any event, Canada's policy leeway is severely limited by its position north of its larger and more powerful neighbour. Whatever the leaving deal, it's a position with which we are going to become very familiar.FF43 said:
What's Canada got to do with it? We are not Canada, Timbuktoo or North Korea.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.0 -
The very essence of a democracy is the freedom to speak out and campaign against actions by the government that you think are wrong.SouthamObserver said:
I am not sure I understand that. Why is a belief that leaving the EU and/or campaigning to stay in the EU not coming to terms with democracy?stevef said:This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.0 -
Close alignment is the bare minimum practical reality of where we will end up given that 50% of our export trade is with the EU. That will obviously have an impact on our trading relationships with other countries. There are also supply chains to maintain if we want to retain our auto industry and other types of high-grade manufacturing - that will also require alignment. There's no getting round that.Mortimer said:
Indeed not. We're far better customers of the EU than any of them.FF43 said:
What's Canada got to do with it? We are not Canada, Timbuktoo or North Korea.RobD said:
In the same way Canada does what they are told?FF43 said:
This is a truism because if you are 100% aligned you can only become less aligned. Nevertheless I think the UK will be aligned with the EU in many ways where it doesn't merely shadow EU regulation because it thinks the specific regulation is a good idea or it doesn't care. The UK will need to commit to every part of the EU regulation, as it exists now and as it is brought in and changed in the future. The whole point of that alignment is to get national treatment in the EU and other countries that have signed up to the EU system. You won't get national treatment without committing to full alignment now and as the regulation changes.SunnyJim said:I think leavers are worrying slightly unnecessarily about Brexit initially leaving us a little more aligned with the EU than they would have preferred.
The ratchet will only turn one way and with each passing GE there will be a move away rather than towards, especially if economically we are outperforming the EU.
It may take the annihilation of the first party to offer re-joining in a GE manifesto to prove the point.
Effectively we commit to doing what we are told, which is very different from collective decision-making as we have as members of the European Union.
More seriously, 'close alignment' is the latest in a LONG list of things Remainers are stating must be retained. So far we've had SM and CU; I suspect the latest ditch will go the way of
The last two.
0 -
I have not screamed fascist at every opportunity. I have used it in relation to one particular poster for precisely explained reasons. Candidly, I expected better of you.Richard_Tyndall said:
Indeed. He is a poor advert for pro-EU supporters, screaming 'fascist' at every opportunity. He has made himself an object of derision.MarqueeMark said:
"Fair minded Remainers" need to consider whether they want Mr Meeks to be their standard bearer.....AlastairMeeks said:
"Fair minded Leavers" need to consider whether they want to associate with people who regard as traitors anyone who doesn't sign up to their preferred version of Brexit. They are remarkably reluctant to dissociate themselves from that view, fascist though it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
But it turns fair minded leavers against you by your use of the unnecessary language.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
As a remain voter I just want TM to negotiate leave that allows us to make our own laws, trade and immigration otherwise we may as well remain. Norway is a silly idea as it does not fulfil the referendum.
It seems that Leavers prefer to keep the company of those engaging in fascist forms of debate to having those forms of debate accurately labelled.0 -
Yep, that's what I thought.IanB2 said:
The very essence of a democracy is the freedom to speak out and campaign against actions by the government that you think are wrong.SouthamObserver said:
I am not sure I understand that. Why is a belief that leaving the EU and/or campaigning to stay in the EU not coming to terms with democracy?stevef said:This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.
0 -
Catching up wiuth earlier queries on the Labour animal welfare strategy that I helped with, which came out today:
- Yes, it proposes that all meat should be labelled stun/non-stun so consumers can choose (and in practice I expect drive out most of the non-stun). This is more relevant than halal/non-halal since 80% of halal meat is in fact stunned.
- Enforcing the Hunting Act is mostly about allowing access to land to investigate and making it a reportable offence, the two snags inhibiting effective enforcement at present.
But these are very far from the main focus of the proposals, which include such proposals as using post-Brexit subsidies to phase out the use of cages and factory farming and phasing out the "severe" experiments category (only 8% of the total but seriously unpleasant - e.g. "learned helplessness", training an animal by repeated shocks to learn that it's helpless and trigger depression).0 -
It's an impressive basket of policies, and I hope there's cross party support.NickPalmer said:Catching up wiuth earlier queries on the Labour animal welfare strategy that I helped with, which came out today:
- Yes, it proposes that all meat should be labelled stun/non-stun so consumers can choose (and in practice I expect drive out most of the non-stun). This is more relevant than halal/non-halal since 80% of halal meat is in fact stunned.
- Enforcing the Hunting Act is mostly about allowing access to land to investigate and making it a reportable offence, the two snags inhibiting effective enforcement at present.
But these are very far from the main focus of the proposals, which include such proposals as using post-Brexit subsidies to phase out the use of cages and factory farming and phasing out the "severe" experiments category (only 8% of the total but seriously unpleasant - e.g. "learned helplessness", training an animal by repeated shocks to learn that it's helpless and trigger depression).0 -
Alastair - i read all your articles with interest and you add to my understanding of politics. You argue your cause as you should but you turn me off, and others, with your reference to rascism.AlastairMeeks said:
I have not screamed fascist at every opportunity. I have used it in relation to one particular poster for precisely explained reasons. Candidly, I expected better of you.Richard_Tyndall said:
Indeed. He is a poor advert for pro-EU supporters, screaming 'fascist' at every opportunity. He has made himself an object of derision.MarqueeMark said:
"Fair minded Remainers" need to consider whether they want Mr Meeks to be their standard bearer.....AlastairMeeks said:
"Fair minded Leavers" need to consider whether they want to associate with people who regard as traitors anyone who doesn't sign up to their preferred version of Brexit. They are remarkably reluctant to dissociate themselves from that view, fascist though it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
But it turns fair minded leavers against you by your use of the unnecessary language.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
As a remain voter I just want TM to negotiate leave that allows us to make our own laws, trade and immigration otherwise we may as well remain. Norway is a silly idea as it does not fulfil the referendum.
It seems that Leavers prefer to keep the company of those engaging in fascist forms of debate to having those forms of debate accurately labelled.
Could I plea with you to desist but of course still fight your corner with gusto0 -
A question: how do you propose "allowing access to land" to work?NickPalmer said:Catching up wiuth earlier queries on the Labour animal welfare strategy that I helped with, which came out today:
- Yes, it proposes that all meat should be labelled stun/non-stun so consumers can choose (and in practice I expect drive out most of the non-stun). This is more relevant than halal/non-halal since 80% of halal meat is in fact stunned.
- Enforcing the Hunting Act is mostly about allowing access to land to investigate and making it a reportable offence, the two snags inhibiting effective enforcement at present.
But these are very far from the main focus of the proposals, which include such proposals as using post-Brexit subsidies to phase out the use of cages and factory farming and phasing out the "severe" experiments category (only 8% of the total but seriously unpleasant - e.g. "learned helplessness", training an animal by repeated shocks to learn that it's helpless and trigger depression).0 -
I have asked Leave posters to dissociate themselves from fascist approaches. You and they prefer to complain about accurate labelling rather than seek to counter a particularly vile form of argument.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Alastair - i read all your articles with interest and you add to my understanding of politics. You argue your cause as you should but you turn me off, and others, with your reference to rascism.AlastairMeeks said:
I have not screamed fascist at every opportunity. I have used it in relation to one particular poster for precisely explained reasons. Candidly, I expected better of you.Richard_Tyndall said:
Indeed. He is a poor advert for pro-EU supporters, screaming 'fascist' at every opportunity. He has made himself an object of derision.MarqueeMark said:
"Fair minded Remainers" need to consider whether they want Mr Meeks to be their standard bearer.....AlastairMeeks said:
"Fair minded Leavers" need to consider whether they want to associate with people who regard as traitors anyone who doesn't sign up to their preferred version of Brexit. They are remarkably reluctant to dissociate themselves from that view, fascist though it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
But it turns fair minded leavers against you by your use of the unnecessary language.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not a wide use. It's a precise use. I have explained carefully why I use it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
If you find yourself in uncomfortable company, perhaps you should call it out. So-called moderate Leavers are remarkably reluctant to confront the aggressively extreme Leavers who they consort with.
As a remain voter I just want TM to negotiate leave that allows us to make our own laws, trade and immigration otherwise we may as well remain. Norway is a silly idea as it does not fulfil the referendum.
It seems that Leavers prefer to keep the company of those engaging in fascist forms of debate to having those forms of debate accurately labelled.
Could I plea with you to desist but of course still fight your corner with gusto0 -
Five minutes later...AlastairMeeks said:
I have not screamed fascist at every opportunity. I have used it in relation to one particular poster for precisely explained reasons. Candidly, I expected better of you.
It seems that Leavers prefer to keep the company of those engaging in fascist forms of debate to having those forms of debate accurately labelled.
Lost count of the number of times most leave voters on here have argued vehemently against the tactics of leave.eu etc, but nothing we say will ever be enough to prevent you from tarring us with that brush.AlastairMeeks said:
I have asked Leave posters to dissociate themselves from fascist approaches. You and they prefer to complain about accurate labelling rather than seek to counter a particularly vile form of argument.
I voted leave because I want the right to hire and fire those who make the laws I live under, because I believe in democracy and think it an important social good.
But no, we're all fascists. Carry on lobbing grenades from your side of the trench. None so blind as those who will not see, etc.
0 -
I pity your inability to read.kyf_100 said:
Five minutes later...AlastairMeeks said:
I have not screamed fascist at every opportunity. I have used it in relation to one particular poster for precisely explained reasons. Candidly, I expected better of you.
It seems that Leavers prefer to keep the company of those engaging in fascist forms of debate to having those forms of debate accurately labelled.
Lost count of the number of times most leave voters on here have argued vehemently against the tactics of leave.eu etc, but nothing we say will ever be enough to prevent you from tarring us with that brush.AlastairMeeks said:
I have asked Leave posters to dissociate themselves from fascist approaches. You and they prefer to complain about accurate labelling rather than seek to counter a particularly vile form of argument.
I voted leave because I want the right to hire and fire those who make the laws I live under, because I believe in democracy and think it an important social good.
But no, we're all fascists. Carry on lobbing grenades from your side of the trench. None so blind as those who will not see, etc.0 -
I dissociate myself with the very small number of leave supporters or indeed anyone who has fascist or rascist views but you do your cause no good by your obsession with this argumentAlastairMeeks said:
I have asked Leave posters to dissociate themselves from fascist approaches. You and they prefer to complain about accurate labelling rather than seek to counter a particularly vile form of argument.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Alastair - i read all your articles with interest and you add to my understanding of politics. You argue your cause as you should but you turn me off, and others, with your reference to rascism.AlastairMeeks said:
I have not screamed fascist at every opportunity. I have used it in relation to one particular poster for precisely explained reasons. Candidly, I expected better of you.Richard_Tyndall said:
Indeed. He is a poor advert for pro-EU supporters, screaming 'fascist' at every opportunity. He has made himself an object of derision.MarqueeMark said:
"Fair minded Remainers" need to consider whether they want Mr Meeks to be their standard bearer.....AlastairMeeks said:
"Fair minded Leavers" need to consider whether they want to associate with people who regard as traitors anyone who doesn't sign up to their preferred version of Brexit. They are remarkably reluctant to dissociate themselves from that view, fascist though it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
But it turns fair minded leavers against you by your use of the unnecessary language.AlastairMeeks said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
Still unnecessary - indeed far too many are using abusive language through a misconception that it will reinforce their viewpoint when in fact it deminishes it. You have a good argument to remain in the EU but the wide use of fascists is just unacceptable and defeats your causeAlastairMeeks said:
It's an allusion to this:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The only thing in this piece is the unecesssry use of bastard in the third sentence. It demeans the piece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck#Quotes
As a remain voter I just want TM to negotiate leave that allows us to make our own laws, trade and immigration otherwise we may as well remain. Norway is a silly idea as it does not fulfil the referendum.
It seems that Leavers prefer to keep the company of those engaging in fascist forms of debate to having those forms of debate accurately labelled.
Could I plea with you to desist but of course still fight your corner with gusto0 -
Ah, sorry, you're right. It wasn't 5 minutes later. It was 21.AlastairMeeks said:
I pity your inability to read.kyf_100 said:
Five minutes later...AlastairMeeks said:
I have not screamed fascist at every opportunity. I have used it in relation to one particular poster for precisely explained reasons. Candidly, I expected better of you.
It seems that Leavers prefer to keep the company of those engaging in fascist forms of debate to having those forms of debate accurately labelled.
Lost count of the number of times most leave voters on here have argued vehemently against the tactics of leave.eu etc, but nothing we say will ever be enough to prevent you from tarring us with that brush.AlastairMeeks said:
I have asked Leave posters to dissociate themselves from fascist approaches. You and they prefer to complain about accurate labelling rather than seek to counter a particularly vile form of argument.
I voted leave because I want the right to hire and fire those who make the laws I live under, because I believe in democracy and think it an important social good.
But no, we're all fascists. Carry on lobbing grenades from your side of the trench. None so blind as those who will not see, etc.0 -
Is anyone saying that all those who voted leave are fascists/racists/xenophobes etc? I think the point most critics make is that *some* leavers were one or all of these things, likely enough to push Brexit over the winning line. I understand that this may be an uncomfortable fact for those pure believers in democracy and sovereignty, but it's tedious to have that fact consistently deflected by outraged screeches about being tarred with the same brush.kyf_100 said:
Five minutes later...AlastairMeeks said:
I have not screamed fascist at every opportunity. I have used it in relation to one particular poster for precisely explained reasons. Candidly, I expected better of you.
It seems that Leavers prefer to keep the company of those engaging in fascist forms of debate to having those forms of debate accurately labelled.
Lost count of the number of times most leave voters on here have argued vehemently against the tactics of leave.eu etc, but nothing we say will ever be enough to prevent you from tarring us with that brush.AlastairMeeks said:
I have asked Leave posters to dissociate themselves from fascist approaches. You and they prefer to complain about accurate labelling rather than seek to counter a particularly vile form of argument.
I voted leave because I want the right to hire and fire those who make the laws I live under, because I believe in democracy and think it an important social good.
But no, we're all fascists. Carry on lobbing grenades from your side of the trench. None so blind as those who will not see, etc.0 -
Well, no, that is the essence of *representative* democracy. Who knows what the essence of a direct democracy is, given that nobody except some of the ancient Greeks has ever tried it? And how does the one interact with the other? The answer, as we now know, is that it doesn't - combining the two is like having cross plies and radials on the one axle.IanB2 said:
The very essence of a democracy is the freedom to speak out and campaign against actions by the government that you think are wrong.SouthamObserver said:
I am not sure I understand that. Why is a belief that leaving the EU and/or campaigning to stay in the EU not coming to terms with democracy?stevef said:This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.
It surprises me that the debate is whether May or Brown will turn out to be the worse Prime Minister. Cameron is a prime example of how Old Etonianism acts as an invisibility cloak for gross incompetence. He also illustrates the point that the PM should be a lawyer or have a right hand man who is a lawyer, because lawyers are always thinking: What if I am wrong? What if this witness says x when my strategy is based on him saying y? What id the country votes Leave? Admittedly I (and everyone else) made the same mistake, but I am not paid for not making it. He was.
What I'd forgotten until 2 minutes ago is that the result of the referendum was advisory only. I am surprised we don't hear more of that, which seems to me to be the least bad point available to diehard Remainers.
0 -
RIP Morgan Tsvangerai. A very courageous man.0
-
If it is a bad apple, 1% spoiling it for everyone, argument, it would defuse the situation considerably if those advancing it, said that. But I read this from Roger downthreadTheuniondivvie said:
Is anyone saying that all those who voted leave are fascists/racists/xenophobes etc? I think the point most critics make is that *some* leavers were one or all of these things, likely enough to push Brexit over the winning line. I understand that this may be an uncomfortable fact for those pure believers in democracy and sovereignty, but it's tedious to have that fact consistently deflected by outraged screeches about being tarred with the same brush.kyf_100 said:
Five minutes later...AlastairMeeks said:
I have not screamed fascist at every opportunity. I have used it in relation to one particular poster for precisely explained reasons. Candidly, I expected better of you.
It seems that Leavers prefer to keep the company of those engaging in fascist forms of debate to having those forms of debate accurately labelled.
Lost count of the number of times most leave voters on here have argued vehemently against the tactics of leave.eu etc, but nothing we say will ever be enough to prevent you from tarring us with that brush.AlastairMeeks said:
I have asked Leave posters to dissociate themselves from fascist approaches. You and they prefer to complain about accurate labelling rather than seek to counter a particularly vile form of argument.
I voted leave because I want the right to hire and fire those who make the laws I live under, because I believe in democracy and think it an important social good.
But no, we're all fascists. Carry on lobbing grenades from your side of the trench. None so blind as those who will not see, etc.
"My prejudice and loathing of Leavers is almost complete and I struggle not to find their attitudes suspect on almost every level."
and I find it hard to read that as a one percenter kind of position.0 -
+1 A sad day for politics in AfricaThomasNashe said:RIP Morgan Tsvangerai. A very courageous man.
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But Brexit is the government implementing what the People said they wanted in a democratic referendum. By attempting to stop it therefore you are subverting democracy.Ishmael_Z said:
Well, no, that is the essence of *representative* democracy. Who knows what the essence of a direct democracy is, given that nobody except some of the ancient Greeks has ever tried it? And how does the one interact with the other? The answer, as we now know, is that it doesn't - combining the two is like having cross plies and radials on the one axle.IanB2 said:
The very essence of a democracy is the freedom to speak out and campaign against actions by the government that you think are wrong.SouthamObserver said:
I am not sure I understand that. Why is a belief that leaving the EU and/or campaigning to stay in the EU not coming to terms with democracy?stevef said:This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.
It surprises me that the debate is whether May or Brown will turn out to be the worse Prime Minister. Cameron is a prime example of how Old Etonianism acts as an invisibility cloak for gross incompetence. He also illustrates the point that the PM should be a lawyer or have a right hand man who is a lawyer, because lawyers are always thinking: What if I am wrong? What if this witness says x when my strategy is based on him saying y? What id the country votes Leave? Admittedly I (and everyone else) made the same mistake, but I am not paid for not making it. He was.
What I'd forgotten until 2 minutes ago is that the result of the referendum was advisory only. I am surprised we don't hear more of that, which seems to me to be the least bad point available to diehard Remainers.0 -
But it is something that could be done now which would, if I understand @rcs1000 correctly, mean that we could stay in the Single Market with all the advantages that brings, and reduce unskilled immigration.MarkHopkins said:rcs1000 said:
The Swiss have a very sensible way of dramatically reducing unskilled immigration, despite allowing freedom of movement from the EU. Everyone needs to buy health insurance, and some packages (the cheap ones) are only available to Swiss nationals. So, if you want to go and wait tables in Geneva, you're going to be ponying up almost £5,000/year for health insurance. That's quite a disincentive for low skilled workers to go Switzerland, especially as you'll need to fund your health insurance before you get a job. (As employers are breaking the law if they hire people without insurance.)RobD said:
Doesn't that top one require the UK to be out of the Single Market?AlastairMeeks said:The regular reminder to those Leavers who inhale the vapours of the referendum vote and believe that Brexit requires all kinds of specific features to honour the vote:
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/961908728801976320
Now: I'm not saying this is the path we want to go down. But it does show how poor the political classes have been in the UK at even putting in the kind of restrictions on low skilled immigration that were possible in the EU.
To get away with that, the Swiss would need to be allowed to treat EU workers differently from their own nationals.
The UK was not allowed to do that in the EU.
So why not do it?0 -
Because the People chose democratically to leave the EU and to leave it in reality.Ishmael_Z said:
Well, no, that is the essence of *representative* democracy. Who knows what the essence of a direct democracy is, given that nobody except some of the ancient Greeks has ever tried it? And how does the one interact with the other? The answer, as we now know, is that it doesn't - combining the two is like having cross plies and radials on the one axle.IanB2 said:
The very essence of a democracy is the freedom to speak out and campaign against actions by the government that you think are wrong.SouthamObserver said:
I am not sure I understand that. Why is a belief that leaving the EU and/or campaigning to stay in the EU not coming to terms with democracy?stevef said:This is becoming a grieving site for Remoaners who cant come to terms with democracy.
I suspect that neither Mogg, nor Johnson, nor Corbyn will ever become prime minister, and in ten years time things will look very very different.
It surprises me that the debate is whether May or Brown will turn out to be the worse Prime Minister. Cameron is a prime example of how Old Etonianism acts as an invisibility cloak for gross incompetence. He also illustrates the point that the PM should be a lawyer or have a right hand man who is a lawyer, because lawyers are always thinking: What if I am wrong? What if this witness says x when my strategy is based on him saying y? What id the country votes Leave? Admittedly I (and everyone else) made the same mistake, but I am not paid for not making it. He was.
What I'd forgotten until 2 minutes ago is that the result of the referendum was advisory only. I am surprised we don't hear more of that, which seems to me to be the least bad point available to diehard Remainers.0 -
Evening all
I thought instead of listening to our esteemed Foreign Secretary, I would read his speech which is thoughtfully re-created on The Spectator.
Boris addresses what he describes as three main concerns - Security, Spiritual and Economic.
Security is a complete red herring - the bulk of our national security derives from our membership of NATO and the collective defence of that organisation and leaving the EU has nothing to do with that. Nor is anyone suggesting we should stop working collaboratively with other European nations around areas of common concern such as fighting terrorism and dealing with migration from sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere.
Spiritual is the old bugbear of identity. Boris may claim Brexit isn't about pulling up the drawbridge but for many LEAVE voters it was in terms of immigration and indeed globalisation (of which more anon). It's all very much trying to preach internationalism but it's not a message that will resonate throughout the LEAVE community.
That was weak but the weakest part of Boris's peroration was reserved for the Economic argument. Apart from the classical waffling, all Boris could say was "Trust us. It will be all right" which is essentially where the May Government has been since July 2016.
It's all very well wibbling on how wonderful leaving the EU will be for entrepreneurs, inventors and investment bankers but it has to work for the rest of us as well and Boris had absolutely nothing to say about how we become a high-wage, high-skill economy. It's laudable and desirable but in lieu of a word on workers' rights and wages post-Brexit, there will be a concern the price of Global Britain will be borne by the majority of working people.
It wasn't a good speech because it had to be cleared through No.10. It was naturally supportive but as most May speeches, long on generalities and short on specifics. There is this vague cuddly notion of Global Britain but a lot of the LEAVE vote was, I think, a vote against globalisation and being at the mercy of international mega-corporations and their tax-dodging ways.
The Prime Minister has an opportunity to paint a picture of Britain after the EU - all we have now is a blank canvass.0 -
Re: Mr Meeks and others
What does Fascism mean these days?
Are there any Fascists? Are they intrinsically bad?
I have a slightly clearer notion of what Racism is. I couldn't define it though.
Does a racist discriminate based on race - yes. Always? Who knows, but 'certainly not' I'd say.
Is race invisible to a non-Racist - oh yes (allegedly)! However there seems to be no end of help that actually discriminates.
Is race invisible to someone that's not arsing about with these daft questions? - Much more Yes.
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I compliment Labour on its excellent policies towards animals today.NickPalmer said:Catching up wiuth earlier queries on the Labour animal welfare strategy that I helped with, which came out today:
- Yes, it proposes that all meat should be labelled stun/non-stun so consumers can choose (and in practice I expect drive out most of the non-stun). This is more relevant than halal/non-halal since 80% of halal meat is in fact stunned.
- Enforcing the Hunting Act is mostly about allowing access to land to investigate and making it a reportable offence, the two snags inhibiting effective enforcement at present.
But these are very far from the main focus of the proposals, which include such proposals as using post-Brexit subsidies to phase out the use of cages and factory farming and phasing out the "severe" experiments category (only 8% of the total but seriously unpleasant - e.g. "learned helplessness", training an animal by repeated shocks to learn that it's helpless and trigger depression).
For the sake of animals everywhere please get rid of Corbyn so there will be a Labour government to implement them.0 -
He outlived Mugabe's reign (though not Mugabe) and died of natural causes - both considerable achievements, in the circumstances.Pulpstar said:
+1 A sad day for politics in AfricaThomasNashe said:RIP Morgan Tsvangerai. A very courageous man.
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NickPalmer said:
Catching up wiuth earlier queries on the Labour animal welfare strategy that I helped with, which came out today:
- Yes, it proposes that all meat should be labelled stun/non-stun so consumers can choose (and in practice I expect drive out most of the non-stun). This is more relevant than halal/non-halal since 80% of halal meat is in fact stunned.
- Enforcing the Hunting Act is mostly about allowing access to land to investigate and making it a reportable offence, the two snags inhibiting effective enforcement at present.
But these are very far from the main focus of the proposals, which include such proposals as using post-Brexit subsidies to phase out the use of cages and factory farming and phasing out the "severe" experiments category (only 8% of the total but seriously unpleasant - e.g. "learned helplessness", training an animal by repeated shocks to learn that it's helpless and trigger depression).
In general they seem sensible proposals. In my very first job as a government lawyer I was involved in moves to protect badgers (and, indeed, was for a time an expert on the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, especially as it related to raptors).
But two things:-
1. I like foie gras, I admit. Don't often eat it. But I do like it. I'm not sure how you can ban it, given current rules.
2. On banning the export of live animals, this will I hope mean that there is much more veal for sale in the UK. It is because we don't - traditionally - eat veal that so many young calves are exported to the Continent where they do.0
