politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Surely the reason LAB’s not pulling away in the polls is that
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I am mightily relieved that young Max is practicing his distinctive brand of election campaigning in Switzerland than on these shores. Some Tories did vote Labour in 2017 for a variety of reasons: I want them all back for 2022.0
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And it is your duty to ensure that the hopper of such pieces is constantly topped up!SeanT said:
Not published yet. The Danakil is so obscure and hard-to-get-to, it's one of those pieces my editor will publish when she literally has nothing else to hand. That's just the way it is. My Bolivia piece took a year to emerge for the same reason.sarissa said:
Did I miss your Danakil piece ?SeanT said:
Not going to Botswana or Namibia. I am off to Mauritius on Friday, and the Seychelles next month, if that's any help. And I came back from China last month, where I think I broke my personal best record for the most expensive room I've been given as a freebie.Cyclefree said:
Yeah: I've read this Thomas fellow. Pretty good, I must say. Is he likely to be travelling to Botswana or Namibia in the near future? Because I'm considering them for a possible trip in the next year or so.SeanT said:
Their lead travel writer is a journalist by the name Sean Thomas. If that's any help.Cyclefree said:Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.
Also, quite seriously, yes: it is the best paper as a "proper" newspaper, and their iPad/iPhone apps are now excellent (after being dreadful for years).
However for quick news in the morning I still usually go to the BBC, Guardian, or FT. Or Telegraph for Brexitbait. Then in the evening I will peruse the Times properly, if I'm at home.
Jesus, did I just say "peruse"?
I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.
The Telegraph is dreadful. The Mail is good for videos of cute cats making the bed etc and Meghan/Harry stuff. I never look at the BBC. Prospect and Quillette are quite good for lengthier and more thoughtful articles. I daren't look at any more otherwise I would waste my days even more than I do already.......
I was put, for three nights, in a restored Qing Dynasty fortress villa, with about five beds and a personal heated lap pool, and butler in the pantry. $10,000 a night. Yep. 10k USD. Thus beating the Guggenheim suite in the Gritti which was about €5000 a night, or the Curzon Suite at the Oberoi Taj Mahal which was was $5000 a night.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/shanghai-chic-the-most-remarkable-hotel-opening-of-the-year-k6mvl3tcg
PS: do go to Namibia, it's brilliant. Self drive! Safe! Deserts! Ghostly cavalries! Wild desert elephants! Saltpans full of lion! Strandwolves!!!!
Also great oysters in eerily Nazi Luderitz.
If I write about a glamorous new hotel in Venice or the Maldives it is published immediately. Advertisers like to see their adverts next to these glitzy pieces.0 -
The instructions of the people, not the executive. Those 11 MPs are defying the people, having been given a specific instruction.SouthamObserver said:So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?
I'm just calling it what it is, I'm not issuing any threats or calling for them to be murdered. They are traitors to our party and the country. If you think that's comparable to an MP getting murdered by a crazy person then that's on you.
Your attempt to silence any dissent on their betrayal won't work. You can say what you like, it doesn't change the fact that they voted against our party and against the people. Call me names or whatever you want. It doesn't bother me.0 -
Max is the exact Tory mirror of a Corbynista. It’s fascinating.JohnO said:I am mightily relieved that young Max is practicing his distinctive brand of election campaigning in Switzerland than on these shores. Some Tories did vote Labour in 2017 for a variety of reasons: I want them all back for 2022.
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Don't get me wrong, if voters switched to Labour because of some issue like the NHS or housing, we can and should win them back.JohnO said:I am mightily relieved that young Max is practicing his distinctive brand of election campaigning in Switzerland than on these shores. Some Tories did vote Labour in 2017 for a variety of reasons: I want them all back for 2022.
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Yep - just realised that. Not sure it’s a vote-winner myself.AlastairMeeks said:
It's a step beyond that. Erstwhile Conservative voters who do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors.SouthamObserver said:
So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?MaxPB said:
I'm talking specifically of Tories who turned their back on the party because the leadership decided to implement the result of the referendum. They betrayed our party and then by voting for Corbyn they betrayed our country. It's not a huge group of people but those 11 useful idiots in Parliament are among them.John_M said:
I really dislike that erson's success criteria may well differ). I havered before the referendum, have worried about my vote since and am still riddled with doubt (though I'm far more sanguine than say, last summer).MaxPB said:
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.AlastairMeeks said:
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.david_herdson said:
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.Cyclefree said:
It may be logical but it is also naive.AlastairMeeks said:The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
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Apologies – my question was meant for Ishmael.MaxPB said:
Eh?Anazina said:
Are you one of those neobrexiteers like HYUFD and Carlotta?MaxPB said:
No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.SouthamObserver said:
This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.MaxPB said:
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.AlastairMeeks said:
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.david_herdson said:
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.Cyclefree said:
It may be logical but it is also naive.AlastairMeeks said:The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
I voted to leave, if that's what you're asking.0 -
Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.0
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Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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Here's an experiment for you. Let us know how you get on.MarqueeMark said:
Your sneer is uncannily similar to Emily's.....Anazina said:
I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??HYUFD said:
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirtAnazina said:HYUFD Posts: 37,584
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
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HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
1. Go and ask your wife whether she would like to live next to house that is covered in England flags.
2. When she says, 'no', directly accuse her of "sneering".
3. To further prove her snobbery, immediately go outside and cover your own house in England flags.
I'm looking forward to your report!0 -
And the house. Would you like to live next to a house covered in England flags?HYUFD said:
There is a slim chance he would have voted for Corbyn though he probably voted for UKIP rather than Ed MilibandAnazina said:
I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??HYUFD said:
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirtAnazina said:HYUFD Posts: 37,584
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
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HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!0 -
This is even more extreme than the HYUFD test.MaxPB said:
Don't get me wrong, if voters switched to Labour because of some issue like the NHS or housing, we can and should win them back.JohnO said:I am mightily relieved that young Max is practicing his distinctive brand of election campaigning in Switzerland than on these shores. Some Tories did vote Labour in 2017 for a variety of reasons: I want them all back for 2022.
If you vote Tory once, you're marked down as a Tory, and if you then subsequently deviate from Tory policy on a litmus test issue like Brexit, you're a traitor and should be banished to hell.0 -
You are calling Dominic Grieve, Ken Clarke. Anna Soubry and others traitors. That’s crazy talk. Sorry. It just is. As someone who is profoundly anti-Tory, I am all for you shouting out your claims of treachery from the rooftops - it will help to ensure the Tories do not get a majority at the next election.MaxPB said:
The instructions of the people, not the executive. Those 11 MPs are defying the people, having been given a specific instruction.SouthamObserver said:So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?
I'm just calling it what it is, I'm not issuing any threats or calling for them to be murdered. They are traitors to our party and the country. If you think that's comparable to an MP getting murdered by a crazy person then that's on you.
Your attempt to silence any dissent on their betrayal won't work. You can say what you like, it doesn't change the fact that they voted against our party and against the people. Call me names or whatever you want. It doesn't bother me.
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Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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I'm afraid your three words "dullards of Mansfield" says all we need to know about your attitudes.Anazina said:
Here's an experiment for you. Let us know how you get on.MarqueeMark said:
Your sneer is uncannily similar to Emily's.....Anazina said:
I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??HYUFD said:
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirtAnazina said:HYUFD Posts: 37,584
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
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HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
1. Go and ask your wife whether she would like to live next to house that is covered in England flags.
2. When she says, 'no', directly accuse her of "sneering".
3. To further prove her snobbery, immediately go outside and cover your own house in England flags.
I'm looking forward to your report!
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Traitor.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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williamglenn said:
This is even more extreme than the HYUFD test.MaxPB said:
Don't get me wrong, if voters switched to Labour because of some issue like the NHS or housing, we can and should win them back.JohnO said:I am mightily relieved that young Max is practicing his distinctive brand of election campaigning in Switzerland than on these shores. Some Tories did vote Labour in 2017 for a variety of reasons: I want them all back for 2022.
If you vote Tory once, you're marked down as a Tory, and if you then subsequently deviate from Tory policy on a litmus test issue like Brexit, you're a traitor and should be banished to hell.
The smiling face of the modern day broad church Tory Party.0 -
I cannot imagine that many of the 2-3%.* of Con 15 -> Lab 17 voters were life long, card carrying Blues. More floating voters just going on impression and gut instinct.
Not traitors, just never fully signed up in the first place.
* Going off the FT report of the switching infographic, which does not link the underlying data, so number is approximate.0 -
Amazing the number of folk who can't take 'Little Englander' or 'xenophobe' or 'racist' but are content to hand out 'traitor' and such like. Lucky for them that no one has been murdered with the cry 'Little Englander' on the murderer's lips.SouthamObserver said:
So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?0 -
Nope, the language of "swivel-eyed mania" is divisive and off-putting for non-believers in the REMAIN campaign.AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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@MaxPB
"I'm talking specifically of Tories who turned their back on the party because the leadership decided to implement the result of the referendum. They betrayed our party and then by voting for Corbyn they betrayed our country. It's not a huge group of people but those 11 useful idiots in Parliament are among them"
Tory Remainer here.
Though I'm technically not one of your "traitors" as I still voted Con with a heavy heart in 2017, I was delighted that May lost her majority and conversely was mighty relieved the swing didn't go quite so far as to let Corbyn in. An ideal result IMO. It's pretty undeniable that May's awful election result is going to give us a far softer and more realistic Brexit than would have occurred had she got a huge majority.0 -
I'd better ask for body guards at County Hall in case Max is seen lurking armed with ten tonne boxes of toblerone.SouthamObserver said:
Traitor.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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Thank you for your intelligent and helpful contribution to the challenge.JohnO said:
I'm afraid your three words "dullards of Mansfield" says all we need to know about your attitudes.Anazina said:
Here's an experiment for you. Let us know how you get on.MarqueeMark said:
Your sneer is uncannily similar to Emily's.....Anazina said:
I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??HYUFD said:
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirtAnazina said:HYUFD Posts: 37,584
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
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HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
1. Go and ask your wife whether she would like to live next to house that is covered in England flags.
2. When she says, 'no', directly accuse her of "sneering".
3. To further prove her snobbery, immediately go outside and cover your own house in England flags.
I'm looking forward to your report!0 -
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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Was a time, now lost in pre-history, when you exhibited a sense of humour.....AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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My pleasure and glad it was so appreciated.Anazina said:
Thank you for your intelligent and helpful contribution to the challenge.JohnO said:
I'm afraid your three words "dullards of Mansfield" says all we need to know about your attitudes.Anazina said:
Here's an experiment for you. Let us know how you get on.MarqueeMark said:
Your sneer is uncannily similar to Emily's.....Anazina said:
I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??HYUFD said:
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirtAnazina said:HYUFD Posts: 37,584
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
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HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
1. Go and ask your wife whether she would like to live next to house that is covered in England flags.
2. When she says, 'no', directly accuse her of "sneering".
3. To further prove her snobbery, immediately go outside and cover your own house in England flags.
I'm looking forward to your report!0 -
The Tory MP who thinks we shouldn't build a bridge to France to save ourselves from invasion doesn't appear to be joking.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
https://twitter.com/MPritchardUK/status/9543257910007480320 -
Amazing the number of folk who can't take 'traitor' and such like, but are content to hand out 'Little Englander' or 'xenophobe' or 'racist'.Theuniondivvie said:
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Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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I preferred the Matt cartoon suggesting we had to drive on the left until half way across.williamglenn said:
The Tory MP who thinks we shouldn't build a bridge to France to save ourselves from invasion doesn't appear to be joking.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
https://twitter.com/MPritchardUK/status/9543257910007480320 -
That is highly deniable. If anything, the opposite is true, given that Mrs May is now very much having to worry about Brexiteer rebellions. Having said that, it might not have made much difference either way given that there really isn't much room for manoeuvre in either direction. I think the only real difference noticeable so far is that we might have agreed to overpay a bit as a result of her weakened position.HHemmelig said:An ideal result IMO. It's pretty undeniable that May's awful election result is going to give us a far softer and more realistic Brexit than would have occurred had she got a huge majority.
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You've been skipping over those cartoons from the Standard haven't you?AlastairMeeks said:
Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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Did you say that with a Kylo Ren voice? Or with that of the stormtrooper that attacks Finn outside Maz's castle?SouthamObserver said:
Traitor.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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Whilst I agree with that and accept that May's weakness probably means a less attractive deal I am increasingly relieved that she has not been given the unrestrained power of a substantial majority.Richard_Nabavi said:
That is highly deniable. If anything, the opposite is true, given that Mrs May is now very much having to worry about Brexiteer rebellions. Having said that, it might not have made much difference either way given that there really isn't much room for manoeuvre in either direction. I think the only real difference noticeable so far is that we might have agreed to overpay a bit.HHemmelig said:An ideal result IMO. It's pretty undeniable that May's awful election result is going to give us a far softer and more realistic Brexit than would have occurred had she got a huge majority.
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Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete0
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Perhaps Jacob Rees-Mogg should try out as the cartoonist in the Express. I can't think of any role he's better suited to and at least he'd be out of harm's way there.DavidL said:
You've been skipping over those cartoons from the Standard haven't you?AlastairMeeks said:
Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
0 -
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
0 -
I don't know. Saturday was pretty niceDavid_Evershed said:Scott_P said:
You don't buy a single imported product?Sean_F said:Brexit causes me and mine no problems at all.
Is that the very definition of a Little Englander?
With global warming, the best wine growing regions of France are moving to southern England. Any way the best wines come from New Zealand so tarrifs on their wines will come down.
https://www.millesima.co.uk/chateau-pichon-longueville-baron-2002.html0 -
Name one.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Amazing the number of folk who can't take 'traitor' and such like, but are content to hand out 'Little Englander' or 'xenophobe' or 'racist'.Theuniondivvie said:0 -
Snowflakes!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Amazing the number of folk who can't take 'traitor' and such like, but are content to hand out 'Little Englander' or 'xenophobe' or 'racist'.Theuniondivvie said:0 -
Anyone who thinks voters owe any particular political party allegiance has a rather skewed view of the world, to put it as mildly as possible.HHemmelig said:@MaxPB
"I'm talking specifically of Tories who turned their back on the party because the leadership decided to implement the result of the referendum. They betrayed our party and then by voting for Corbyn they betrayed our country. It's not a huge group of people but those 11 useful idiots in Parliament are among them"
Tory Remainer here.
Though I'm technically not one of your "traitors" as I still voted Con with a heavy heart in 2017, I was delighted that May lost her majority and conversely was mighty relieved the swing didn't go quite so far as to let Corbyn in. An ideal result IMO. It's pretty undeniable that May's awful election result is going to give us a far softer and more realistic Brexit than would have occurred had she got a huge majority.0 -
A modest working majority would have been much, much better than what we've got. She basically can't do anything about non-Brexit issues, and Brexit is riskier than it needs to be because of her lack of a majority.DavidL said:
Whilst I agree with that and accept that May's weakness probably means a less attractive deal I am increasingly relieved that she has not been given the unrestrained power of a substantial majority.Richard_Nabavi said:
That is highly deniable. If anything, the opposite is true, given that Mrs May is now very much having to worry about Brexiteer rebellions. Having said that, it might not have made much difference either way given that there really isn't much room for manoeuvre in either direction. I think the only real difference noticeable so far is that we might have agreed to overpay a bit.HHemmelig said:An ideal result IMO. It's pretty undeniable that May's awful election result is going to give us a far softer and more realistic Brexit than would have occurred had she got a huge majority.
0 -
@JohnO
"I am mightily relieved that young Max is practicing his distinctive brand of election campaigning in Switzerland than on these shores. Some Tories did vote Labour in 2017 for a variety of reasons: I want them all back for 2022."
Then he has no right at all to lecture those of us who haven't abandoned our country what we should or shouldn't think about Brexit. Call those who disagree with Brexit traitiors from the comfort of Switzerland - beyond parody.
0 -
And Timothy and Hill would still be in Number 10. They are doing enough damage outside it.Richard_Nabavi said:
A modest working majority would have been much, much better than what we've got. She basically can't do anything about non-Brexit issues, and Brexit is riskier than it needs to be because of her lack of a majority.DavidL said:
Whilst I agree with that and accept that May's weakness probably means a less attractive deal I am increasingly relieved that she has not been given the unrestrained power of a substantial majority.Richard_Nabavi said:
That is highly deniable. If anything, the opposite is true, given that Mrs May is now very much having to worry about Brexiteer rebellions. Having said that, it might not have made much difference either way given that there really isn't much room for manoeuvre in either direction. I think the only real difference noticeable so far is that we might have agreed to overpay a bit.HHemmelig said:An ideal result IMO. It's pretty undeniable that May's awful election result is going to give us a far softer and more realistic Brexit than would have occurred had she got a huge majority.
0 -
Andrea 'Tara' Davison lol0
-
That's true.DavidL said:
And Timothy and Hill would still be in Number 10. They are doing enough damage outside it.Richard_Nabavi said:
A modest working majority would have been much, much better than what we've got. She basically can't do anything about non-Brexit issues, and Brexit is riskier than it needs to be because of her lack of a majority.DavidL said:
Whilst I agree with that and accept that May's weakness probably means a less attractive deal I am increasingly relieved that she has not been given the unrestrained power of a substantial majority.Richard_Nabavi said:
That is highly deniable. If anything, the opposite is true, given that Mrs May is now very much having to worry about Brexiteer rebellions. Having said that, it might not have made much difference either way given that there really isn't much room for manoeuvre in either direction. I think the only real difference noticeable so far is that we might have agreed to overpay a bit.HHemmelig said:An ideal result IMO. It's pretty undeniable that May's awful election result is going to give us a far softer and more realistic Brexit than would have occurred had she got a huge majority.
0 -
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
0 -
Not just Switzerland - Davos!HHemmelig said:@JohnO
"I am mightily relieved that young Max is practicing his distinctive brand of election campaigning in Switzerland than on these shores. Some Tories did vote Labour in 2017 for a variety of reasons: I want them all back for 2022."
Then he has no right at all to lecture those of us who haven't abandoned our country what we should or shouldn't think about Brexit. Call those who disagree with Brexit traitiors from the comfort of Switzerland - beyond parody.0 -
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)0 -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42778184
Although Mr Osborne was not charged with a terrorist offence, Mr Rees said "the note and the comments he made after his detention establish that this act of extreme violence was, indeed, an act of terrorism".
I see this guy hasn't been charged with terror offences. Can anyone explain why that's the case?0 -
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)0 -
Good Sanchez is incredible. Bad Sanchez is a waste of space. And you do get the impression that he's a disruptive presence in the dressing room.tlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
For all that, watching him at his best has been a privilege.0 -
Genine question - Are Arsenal pleased he has left for Man Utdtlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
I used to get infuriated with Eric (Cantona), Beckham and Ronaldo but they bought something special to the tea0 -
His biggest weakness is that he's utterly predictable. He always cuts inside and never goes down the outside. You have to put up with a huge amount of rubbish to get some gems.AlastairMeeks said:
Good Sanchez is incredible. Bad Sanchez is a waste of space. And you do get the impression that he's a disruptive presence in the dressing room.tlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
For all that, watching him at his best has been a privilege.0 -
@Richard Navabi
"That is highly deniable. If anything, the opposite is true, given that Mrs May is now very much having to worry about Brexiteer rebellions. Having said that, it might not have made much difference either way given that there really isn't much room for manoeuvre in either direction. I think the only real difference noticeable so far is that we might have agreed to overpay a bit as a result of her weakened position."
She has caved in to numerous Remainer rebellions and had to guarantee regulatory equivalence across the Irish border. None of that would have been likely with a working majority. The Brexiteers have so far been strangely quiet and un-rebellious despite their red lines being almost totally rubbed out. May be this will change as the negotiations rumble on.
0 -
I'm annoyed that he wasn't sold in the summer. He strikes me as very petulant and very difficult manage. I bet plenty of the other players were pleased to see the back of him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genine question - Are Arsenal pleased he has left for Man Utdtlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
I used to get infuriated with Eric (Cantona), Beckham and Ronaldo but they bought something special to the tea0 -
The £ went down and then the $ went down. Whoopeedoo.SeanT said:
Notice you haven't mentioned the £ is now worth almost $1.40. That is to say: it is now worth almost exactly what it was the months BEFORE the Brexit referendum.Scott_P said:
Umm, they did...Sunil_Prasannan said:Of course the UK NEVER imported a single item before 1973.
And they all got more expensive after the Brexit vote. If you buy them, they cost more...0 -
£450,000 a week is ridiculous and unsustainable, even for United. Other players in their squad have a benchmark now.tlg86 said:
I'm annoyed that he wasn't sold in the summer. He strikes me as very petulant and very difficult manage. I bet plenty of the other players were pleased to see the back of him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genine question - Are Arsenal pleased he has left for Man Utdtlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
I used to get infuriated with Eric (Cantona), Beckham and Ronaldo but they bought something special to the tea
0 -
I think it's because as he has actually killed someone, a plain old murder charge is adequate and straightforward. The terrorist offences are for people who haven't actually got that far, but are preparing/planning/encouraging others to commit murder.tlg86 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42778184
Although Mr Osborne was not charged with a terrorist offence, Mr Rees said "the note and the comments he made after his detention establish that this act of extreme violence was, indeed, an act of terrorism".
I see this guy hasn't been charged with terror offences. Can anyone explain why that's the case?0 -
I think his wage increase will help to focus his team building though others players will be seeking increases as a resulttlg86 said:
I'm annoyed that he wasn't sold in the summer. He strikes me as very petulant and very difficult manage. I bet plenty of the other players were pleased to see the back of him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genine question - Are Arsenal pleased he has left for Man Utdtlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
I used to get infuriated with Eric (Cantona), Beckham and Ronaldo but they bought something special to the tea0 -
JRM's Portillo moment? Not losing his seat but the crass who dares wins speech.AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
0 -
"Business leaders push for new campaign to reverse Brexit "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/22/business-leaders-push-for-new-campaign-to-reverse-brexit
Behind the scenes, senior figures on the CBI policy council are urging the lobby group to toughen its message still further and spell out their belief that this logic should ultimately lead to a national rethink of the decision to leave the EU, perhaps through a second referendum or an election.
...
“It’s not for us to say [whether to reverse Brexit], we are simply pointing out that you need single market access and you need a customs union,” said a spokesman, Charles Naylor. “If someone concludes that we therefore need to retest this, that’s a political decision, we are just being very practical about it.”0 -
It's also nonsense. Of the Tory rebels only Ken Clarke has really said he's out and out opposed to Brexit. The others have strongly disagreed with the form of Brexit the PM is currently advocating (such as it is) because they believe it to be disastrous. If, say May had come out and announced after becoming leader that she wanted to leave the EU but opt to stay in the single market and customs union then another set of Tory MPs would be rebelling for their preferred form of Brexit. We don't want MPs to just rubberstamp contentious policies but use their judgement.SouthamObserver said:
You are calling Dominic Grieve, Ken Clarke. Anna Soubry and others traitors. That’s crazy talk. Sorry. It just is. As someone who is profoundly anti-Tory, I am all for you shouting out your claims of treachery from the rooftops - it will help to ensure the Tories do not get a majority at the next election.MaxPB said:
The instructions of the people, not the executive. Those 11 MPs are defying the people, having been given a specific instruction.SouthamObserver said:So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?
I'm just calling it what it is, I'm not issuing any threats or calling for them to be murdered. They are traitors to our party and the country. If you think that's comparable to an MP getting murdered by a crazy person then that's on you.
Your attempt to silence any dissent on their betrayal won't work. You can say what you like, it doesn't change the fact that they voted against our party and against the people. Call me names or whatever you want. It doesn't bother me.
But then this problem goes back to the in-out referendum. It's an oblique instruction requiring, often contradictory interpretations none of which commands obvious clear support in the country. Which is why everything's a bit of a mess. There is no settled will of the people - as there's not an agreed way to faithfully carry out the instruction.0 -
I agree with your first two sentences. But not your last. The term "traitor" is not unknown in Labour though it is not often used in connection with Brexit. Corbyn does not value the EU and has no intention of returning to it or the SM/CU, however much some may wish it to be so.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
Only the Lib Dems do that and they are both irrelevant and invisible.0 -
Thomas Mair was done under the Terrorism Act 2000.Ishmael_Z said:
I think it's because as he has actually killed someone, a plain old murder charge is adequate and straightforward. The terrorist offences are for people who haven't actually got that far, but are preparing/planning/encouraging others to commit murder.tlg86 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42778184
Although Mr Osborne was not charged with a terrorist offence, Mr Rees said "the note and the comments he made after his detention establish that this act of extreme violence was, indeed, an act of terrorism".
I see this guy hasn't been charged with terror offences. Can anyone explain why that's the case?0 -
That's clever.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Amazing the number of folk who can't take 'traitor' and such like, but are content to hand out 'Little Englander' or 'xenophobe' or 'racist'.Theuniondivvie said:
Why didn't you do your wee reverse trick with all of my post? Oh, that's right.
0 -
Not when it is effectively a free transfer but your point about other players is validSouthamObserver said:
£450,000 a week is ridiculous and unsustainable, even for United. Other players in their squad have a benchmark now.tlg86 said:
I'm annoyed that he wasn't sold in the summer. He strikes me as very petulant and very difficult manage. I bet plenty of the other players were pleased to see the back of him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genine question - Are Arsenal pleased he has left for Man Utdtlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
I used to get infuriated with Eric (Cantona), Beckham and Ronaldo but they bought something special to the tea0 -
And exports went up and upIanB2 said:
The £ went down and then the $ went down. Whoopeedoo.SeanT said:
Notice you haven't mentioned the £ is now worth almost $1.40. That is to say: it is now worth almost exactly what it was the months BEFORE the Brexit referendum.Scott_P said:
Umm, they did...Sunil_Prasannan said:Of course the UK NEVER imported a single item before 1973.
And they all got more expensive after the Brexit vote. If you buy them, they cost more...0 -
Cameron, had he not been so arrogant as to think he could stroll the referendum, should have agreed to it on condition that the leave campaigners first agree amongst themselves a prospectus setting out, in outline, what Brexit would look like.MJW said:
It's also nonsense. Of the Tory rebels only Ken Clarke has really said he's out and out opposed to Brexit. The others have strongly disagreed with the form of Brexit the PM is currently advocating (such as it is) because they believe it to be disastrous. If, say May had come out and announced after becoming leader that she wanted to leave the EU but opt to stay in the single market and customs union then another set of Tory MPs would be rebelling for their preferred form of Brexit. We don't want MPs to just rubberstamp contentious policies but use their judgement.SouthamObserver said:
You are calling Dominic Grieve, Ken Clarke. Anna Soubry and others traitors. That’s crazy talk. Sorry. It just is. As someone who is profoundly anti-Tory, I am all for you shouting out your claims of treachery from the rooftops - it will help to ensure the Tories do not get a majority at the next election.MaxPB said:
The instructions of the people, not the executive. Those 11 MPs are defying the people, having been given a specific instruction.SouthamObserver said:So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?
I'm just calling it what it is, I'm not issuing any threats or calling for them to be murdered. They are traitors to our party and the country. If you think that's comparable to an MP getting murdered by a crazy person then that's on you.
Your attempt to silence any dissent on their betrayal won't work. You can say what you like, it doesn't change the fact that they voted against our party and against the people. Call me names or whatever you want. It doesn't bother me.
But then this problem goes back to the in-out referendum. It's an oblique instruction requiring, often contradictory interpretations none of which commands obvious clear support in the country. Which is why everything's a bit of a mess. There is no settled will of the people - as there's not an agreed way to faithfully carry out the instruction.0 -
I don't normally go all personal. But - really - do grow up.MaxPB said:
The instructions of the people, not the executive. Those 11 MPs are defying the people, having been given a specific instruction.SouthamObserver said:So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?
I'm just calling it what it is, I'm not issuing any threats or calling for them to be murdered. They are traitors to our party and the country. If you think that's comparable to an MP getting murdered by a crazy person then that's on you.
Your attempt to silence any dissent on their betrayal won't work. You can say what you like, it doesn't change the fact that they voted against our party and against the people. Call me names or whatever you want. It doesn't bother me.
Disagreement in a democracy does not make one a traitor. MPs are there to represent. Not take instructions. Read some Edmund Burke.
Or even this - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/12/15/to-get-the-tone-right-it-has-to-come-from-the-top/0 -
Fake news. Almost.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And exports went up and upIanB2 said:
The £ went down and then the $ went down. Whoopeedoo.SeanT said:
Notice you haven't mentioned the £ is now worth almost $1.40. That is to say: it is now worth almost exactly what it was the months BEFORE the Brexit referendum.Scott_P said:
Umm, they did...Sunil_Prasannan said:Of course the UK NEVER imported a single item before 1973.
And they all got more expensive after the Brexit vote. If you buy them, they cost more...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/08/uk-exports-eu-weak-pound-trade-europe0 -
Mikytarian should suit Arsenal well, better than the sulky Chilean.tlg86 said:
I'm annoyed that he wasn't sold in the summer. He strikes me as very petulant and very difficult manage. I bet plenty of the other players were pleased to see the back of him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genine question - Are Arsenal pleased he has left for Man Utdtlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
I used to get infuriated with Eric (Cantona), Beckham and Ronaldo but they bought something special to the tea
Good business as far as I can see. ManU are crazy.0 -
Yes, that's what happened with Sol Campbell. It probably led to a few of the senior players at Arsenal seeking a rise but I don't think it caused any major problem in that regard.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not when it is effectively a free transfer but your point about other players is validSouthamObserver said:
£450,000 a week is ridiculous and unsustainable, even for United. Other players in their squad have a benchmark now.tlg86 said:
I'm annoyed that he wasn't sold in the summer. He strikes me as very petulant and very difficult manage. I bet plenty of the other players were pleased to see the back of him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genine question - Are Arsenal pleased he has left for Man Utdtlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
I used to get infuriated with Eric (Cantona), Beckham and Ronaldo but they bought something special to the tea
I know Ray Parlour thought it was brilliant and spent the first few weeks winding Sol up something rotten. But football was different back then. I can imagine Pogba being miffed.0 -
Because wanting the Prime Minister Theresa May chopped up in bags in his freezer is adequately covered by the existing crim.....tlg86 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42778184
Although Mr Osborne was not charged with a terrorist offence, Mr Rees said "the note and the comments he made after his detention establish that this act of extreme violence was, indeed, an act of terrorism".
I see this guy hasn't been charged with terror offences. Can anyone explain why that's the case?
Ah. Not that Mr. Osborne.....0 -
Should Andy Burnham put that on the side of a bus, with the words 'let's give that money to the NHS instead?' next to it?SouthamObserver said:
£450,000 a week is ridiculous and unsustainable, even for United. Other players in their squad have a benchmark now.tlg86 said:
I'm annoyed that he wasn't sold in the summer. He strikes me as very petulant and very difficult manage. I bet plenty of the other players were pleased to see the back of him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genine question - Are Arsenal pleased he has left for Man Utdtlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
I used to get infuriated with Eric (Cantona), Beckham and Ronaldo but they bought something special to the tea
Would have thought it would be a winner...0 -
@MaxPB - I think you’ve gone too far. While it was not pleasant to see the 11 rebels celebrating the government’s defeat, I think any accusations of treachery to party or country are utterly unjustified at this stage.
If they vote against the deal, threatening the country with a general election which might see Corbyn come to power, or actively support a second referendum of any kind, we can reassess.0 -
Did not work for Ed Miliband though did itSouthamObserver said:
Cultural values are linked to economic outcomes. The flag will get the Tories so far, but crumbling public services and stagnating living standards will do for them if they are not addressed. In our FPTP system not being on the far left would be enough to see Thornberry home, especially as she is fluent and credible enough to come up with some form of words on her Tweet for the very small number who do remember it. However, this is all academic as Jeremy Corbyn will almost certainly be Labour leader at the next election.HYUFD said:
Cultural values determine elections nowadays almost as much as economics and a soft left social democrat globalist like Thornberry with contempt for national pride of any kind will not be winning the white working class vote.SouthamObserver said:
I think you would be surprised at the number of voters - working class or otherwise - who have absolutely no idea who Emily Thornberry is. If she did become labour leader and the Tories were still presiding over creaking public services and stagnating living standards come the next election, no-one is going to care about a Tweet she sent many years before.HYUFD said:
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirtAnazina said:HYUFD Posts: 37,584
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
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HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
If Labour get rid of Corbyn only Blairism would really be a better alternative, certainly not relaunching the leadership and style of Ed Miliband0 -
As a direct descendant of the most famous Frenchman ever (Napoleon) and one of the most famous French Jewish women ever (Rachel) I am prepared, in a spirit of British self-sacrifice, akin to Scott going outside for some time, to be loaned to the French. Despite this quasi-@SeanT style boasting, I only require a modest apartment - with roof garden and exquisite courtyard garden in the centre of Paris where I can in my immaculate French (courtesy of my French grandmother) do my bit for Anglo-French relations. I could have a salon and invite people to discourse on matters of the day, a sort of 19th century version of PB, only with madeleines, proper coffee and fine wines.AlastairMeeks said:
Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
I await the call...........0 -
Anna is locally seen by some Remainders as a RINO (Remainer in Name Only) - usually she votes with the whips in the end after lots of sound and fury. Ken Clarke is more willing to vote with his conscience.SouthamObserver said:
You are calling Dominic Grieve, Ken Clarke. Anna Soubry and others traitors. That’s crazy talk. Sorry. It just is. As someone who is profoundly anti-Tory, I am all for you shouting out your claims of treachery from the rooftops - it will help to ensure the Tories do not get a majority at the next election.MaxPB said:
The instructions of the people, not the executive. Those 11 MPs are defying the people, having been given a specific instruction.SouthamObserver said:So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?
I'm just calling it what it is, I'm not issuing any threats or calling for them to be murdered. They are traitors to our party and the country. If you think that's comparable to an MP getting murdered by a crazy person then that's on you.
Your attempt to silence any dissent on their betrayal won't work. You can say what you like, it doesn't change the fact that they voted against our party and against the people. Call me names or whatever you want. It doesn't bother me.
But Max and SeanT share with the Trots of this world a willingness to use nutty abuse merely because they disagree with someone. They're all a bit weird.0 -
Mikytarian started all guns blazing but he has completely lost his way and I see no upside for Arsenal in this.Foxy said:
Mikytarian should suit Arsenal well, better than the sulky Chilean.tlg86 said:
I'm annoyed that he wasn't sold in the summer. He strikes me as very petulant and very difficult manage. I bet plenty of the other players were pleased to see the back of him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genine question - Are Arsenal pleased he has left for Man Utdtlg86 said:
As someone who has watched him play for the last three and a half seasons, I disagree. You'll be infuriated by him.DavidL said:
Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.DavidL said:
I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000
Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)
I used to get infuriated with Eric (Cantona), Beckham and Ronaldo but they bought something special to the tea
Good business as far as I can see. ManU are crazy.
I think you will find Man U supporters are really pleased at the swop deal, indeed amazed0 -
He's become a woman???Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
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Well the first sentence is relevant to PB this evening.Theuniondivvie said:
That's clever.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Amazing the number of folk who can't take 'traitor' and such like, but are content to hand out 'Little Englander' or 'xenophobe' or 'racist'.Theuniondivvie said:
Why didn't you do your wee reverse trick with all of my post? Oh, that's right.0 -
The 11 are not traitors. They've always made their views plain, and indeed, have given little trouble to the government.MaxPB said:
I'm talking specifically of Tories who turned their back on the party because the leadership decided to implement the result of the referendum. They betrayed our party and then by voting for Corbyn they betrayed our country. It's not a huge group of people but those 11 useful idiots in Parliament are among them.John_M said:
I really dislike that kind of characterisation. I think we should accept that people's views on the benefits and drawbacks of EU membership are sincerely held and respect that. It's far to early to say whether Brexit will be a success (and of course, each person's success criteria may well differ). I havered before the referendum, have worried about my vote since and am still riddled with doubt (though I'm far more sanguine than say, last summer).MaxPB said:
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.AlastairMeeks said:
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.david_herdson said:
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.Cyclefree said:
It may be logical but it is also naive.AlastairMeeks said:The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.-1 -
Michael Portillo has a famous motto:DecrepitJohnL said:
JRM's Portillo moment? Not losing his seat but the crass who dares wins speech.AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
Who dares wins!
WE dare! WE will WIN!!!
[Sunil goes and lies down for a while...]0 -
The funny thing is that his first game is likely to be away to Yeovil this friday in the cupSandyRentool said:
He's become a woman???Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete
0 -
Oates went outside, not Scott, and did so pretty much under direct instruction from Scott that anyone who couldn't go on was to commit suicide for the sake of the others; he had that morning got Wilson to explain to the entire party the procedure for overdosing on morphine. Oates' mother refused to show up at the Palace to collect a medal on his behalf, and pressed unsuccessfully for an enquiry into Scott's conduct of the expedition. It cannot be overstated what an incompetent, murderous horp* Scott was.Cyclefree said:
As a direct descendant of the most famous Frenchman ever (Napoleon) and one of the most famous French Jewish women ever (Rachel) I am prepared, in a spirit of British self-sacrifice, akin to Scott going outside for some time, to be loaned to the French. Despite this quasi-@SeanT style boasting, I only require a modest apartment - with roof garden and exquisite courtyard garden in the centre of Paris where I can in my immaculate French (courtesy of my French grandmother) do my bit for Anglo-French relations. I could have a salon and invite people to discourse on matters of the day, a sort of 19th century version of PB, only with madeleines, proper coffee and fine wines.AlastairMeeks said:
Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
I await the call...........
* Substring of "Scunthorpe". Other substrings are available.0 -
What are EU values?AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
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If the thread header is true, conservatives should be worried. This is not going to be a big issue in 20220
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Alastair Meeks for one.Recidivist said:
Name one.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Amazing the number of folk who can't take 'traitor' and such like, but are content to hand out 'Little Englander' or 'xenophobe' or 'racist'.Theuniondivvie said:0 -
The things you learn on PB. "Reassessing famous heroes". It could be the salon's first topic.Ishmael_Z said:
Oates went outside, not Scott, and did so pretty much under direct instruction from Scott that anyone who couldn't go on was to commit suicide for the sake of the others; he had that morning got Wilson to explain to the entire party the procedure for overdosing on morphine. Oates' mother refused to show up at the Palace to collect a medal on his behalf, and pressed unsuccessfully for an enquiry into Scott's conduct of the expedition. It cannot be overstated what an incompetent, murderous horp* Scott was.Cyclefree said:
As a direct descendant of the most famous Frenchman ever (Napoleon) and one of the most famous French Jewish women ever (Rachel) I am prepared, in a spirit of British self-sacrifice, akin to Scott going outside for some time, to be loaned to the French. Despite this quasi-@SeanT style boasting, I only require a modest apartment - with roof garden and exquisite courtyard garden in the centre of Paris where I can in my immaculate French (courtesy of my French grandmother) do my bit for Anglo-French relations. I could have a salon and invite people to discourse on matters of the day, a sort of 19th century version of PB, only with madeleines, proper coffee and fine wines.AlastairMeeks said:
Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
I await the call...........
* Substring of "Scunthorpe". Other substrings are available.0 -
A lack of democratic legitimacy, a fear of public referenda, and a contempt for the nation states of Europe and their preferences...?Sean_F said:
What are EU values?AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
0 -
Q. Why did the REMAINERs cross the road?
A. Because Brussels told them to
(I thank you!)0 -
Corbyn is and whether it is or not depends what Brexit UK looks like in 2022Stereotomy said:If the thread header is true, conservatives should be worried. This is not going to be a big issue in 2022
0 -
Didn't know most of that (I was aware judgments on RFS were various). Thanks, I've learned something today.Ishmael_Z said:
Oates went outside, not Scott, and did so pretty much under direct instruction from Scott that anyone who couldn't go on was to commit suicide for the sake of the others; he had that morning got Wilson to explain to the entire party the procedure for overdosing on morphine. Oates' mother refused to show up at the Palace to collect a medal on his behalf, and pressed unsuccessfully for an enquiry into Scott's conduct of the expedition. It cannot be overstated what an incompetent, murderous horp* Scott was.Cyclefree said:
As a direct descendant of the most famous Frenchman ever (Napoleon) and one of the most famous French Jewish women ever (Rachel) I am prepared, in a spirit of British self-sacrifice, akin to Scott going outside for some time, to be loaned to the French. Despite this quasi-@SeanT style boasting, I only require a modest apartment - with roof garden and exquisite courtyard garden in the centre of Paris where I can in my immaculate French (courtesy of my French grandmother) do my bit for Anglo-French relations. I could have a salon and invite people to discourse on matters of the day, a sort of 19th century version of PB, only with madeleines, proper coffee and fine wines.AlastairMeeks said:
Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
I await the call...........
* Substring of "Scunthorpe". Other substrings are available.0 -
Don't get me started on Thomas Telford ...Cyclefree said:
The things you learn on PB. "Reassessing famous heroes". It could be the salon's first topic.Ishmael_Z said:
Oates went outside, not Scott, and did so pretty much under direct instruction from Scott that anyone who couldn't go on was to commit suicide for the sake of the others; he had that morning got Wilson to explain to the entire party the procedure for overdosing on morphine. Oates' mother refused to show up at the Palace to collect a medal on his behalf, and pressed unsuccessfully for an enquiry into Scott's conduct of the expedition. It cannot be overstated what an incompetent, murderous horp* Scott was.Cyclefree said:
As a direct descendant of the most famous Frenchman ever (Napoleon) and one of the most famous French Jewish women ever (Rachel) I am prepared, in a spirit of British self-sacrifice, akin to Scott going outside for some time, to be loaned to the French. Despite this quasi-@SeanT style boasting, I only require a modest apartment - with roof garden and exquisite courtyard garden in the centre of Paris where I can in my immaculate French (courtesy of my French grandmother) do my bit for Anglo-French relations. I could have a salon and invite people to discourse on matters of the day, a sort of 19th century version of PB, only with madeleines, proper coffee and fine wines.AlastairMeeks said:
Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.Elliot said:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".AlastairMeeks said:
Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.JohnO said:
Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
I await the call...........
* Substring of "Scunthorpe". Other substrings are available.
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Plus arrogance, intransigence, pettiness and incompetence.Mortimer said:
A lack of democratic legitimacy, a fear of public referenda, and a contempt for the nation states of Europe and their preferences...?Sean_F said:
What are EU values?AlastairMeeks said:Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.
0 -
Or, not used his support for a referendum as a handy piece of virtue signalling to keep his eurosceptics on side. If there was a sensible way to conduct Brexit it was for a party to put it forward as part of a full manifesto explaining how it fitted into its economic and social plans and then run for election on it. If they won, they'd have had five years to implement that plan before asking to be judged on whether it was the right one. If it was a disaster they'd be booted out. As it is, we're at a point where the cart has been put before the horse - we know we're leaving but God knows where we'll end up and it's filled politics with chancers who know it's unlikely they'll have to clear up any detritus, and so put political posturing ahead of what's coherent, desirable nd achievable (whichever side you're on).IanB2 said:
Cameron, had he not been so arrogant as to think he could stroll the referendum, should have agreed to it on condition that the leave campaigners first agree amongst themselves a prospectus setting out, in outline, what Brexit would look like.MJW said:
It's also nonsense. Of the Tory rebels only Ken Clarke has really said he's out and out opposed to Brexit. The others have strongly disagreed with the form of Brexit the PM is currently advocating (such as it is) because they believe it to be disastrous. If, say May had come out and announced after becoming leader that she wanted to leave the EU but opt to stay in the single market and customs union then another set of Tory MPs would be rebelling for their preferred form of BrexitSouthamObserver said:
You are calling Dominic Grieve, Ken Clarke. Anna Soubry and others traitors. That’s crazy talk. Sorry. It just is.MaxPB said:
The instructions of the people, not the executive. Those 11 MPs are defying the people, having been given a specific instruction.SouthamObserver said:So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?
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"Other LAB figures like Chuka Umunna and Keir Starmer have been articulating Brexit positions which, I’d suggest, are much more palatable to the vast bulk of the Labour movement than Crobyn/Mc"
Why don't they mount a leadership challenge then ??
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