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The dire situation today's FTB'ers could be facing is signing up for the first situation and a couple of years later finding themselves dealing with the second situation.Philip_Thompson said:
No. It depends upon both how much you can buy and how much you can pay.FrankBooth said:
Isn't that attitude typical of what is wrong. That what really matters is whether you are able to buy not how much debt you are taking on?Sandpit said:
I always wonder if those wishing house prices to fall have factored in mortgage offers being 80% LTV rather than 95%. For a first time buyer, the issues around finance are much more important than issues around the actual price of the property.rcs1000 said:
It's a very good point: falling house prices means lower mortgage availability, and higher net interest margins.Sandpit said:
Agree entirely. The other issue is that demand for housing is closely correlated with supply and demand of mortgage finance. As soon as house prices start to fall banks will want higher deposits which will cause further price falls as demand dries up. It could take a fair few years for that situation to normalise, during and after which time, as you say, there will be huge problems of negative equity - as was seen in the early 1990s.rcs1000 said:
The big, unacknowledged, problem is that we're addicted to the Bank of Bricks and Mortar.Sandpit said:
What is he suggesting we do about it?Pong said:https://twitter.com/NickJTimothy/status/947118142437953542
Spot on.
The tories need to apologize to this chap and beg him to come back on board.
Let's say we increase supply through more building, lower demand by cutting immigration, and therefore reduce the price of housing by 30%. This makes it much easier for millennials to end up home owners, which is good.
But it also results in dramatically lower labour mobility, as people with negative equity can no longer move house. It also means that people up their savings rate to compensate for no longer having as much equity in their home. This would result in a significant reduction in the level of aggregate demand, likely tipping the economy into recession.
Gordon Brown and George Osborne made a terrible mess of the UK economy. It will likely take another decade, and a Chancellor of the caliber of Howe, Lawson or Clarke, to turn it back around.
I'd rather buy a house for say 200k at 3% interest than 100k at 15% interest. The money I'm losing is the interest.
£100k negative equity + high interest rates.
What the economy really needs is wage rises to square the circle.
Labour needs to organise. To reunionise and get back into power.0 -
And that would be a big financial mistake. With a smaller mortgage and higher rates, overpayments eat into the capital much faster and you can more easily pay off your mortgage early.Philip_Thompson said:No. It depends upon both how much you can buy and how much you can pay.
I'd rather buy a house for say 200k at 3% interest than 100k at 15% interest. The money I'm losing is the interest.
With your example, if you assume you have a deposit of 40k (20% of the £200k example), your monthly repayments will be around £760 in both cases, but a monthly overpayment of just £40 will see you pay off your mortgage 6 years earlier in the second example. (And that's before you've taken into account the risk of movements in interest rates which are much more likely to be in your favour if you're starting from a historically high level.)0 -
The next time England tour Australia, I think the squad should be chosen by randomly selecting 11 people from the top 100 players in the country. The current method doesn't seem to be working particularly well.0
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AndyJS said:
The next time England tour Australia, I think the squad should be chosen by randomly selecting 11 people from the top 100 players in the country. The current method doesn't seem to be working particularly well.
Or they could randomly pick 11 people from the country....
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Good idea, I've always wanted to play for England, lol.MarkHopkins said:AndyJS said:The next time England tour Australia, I think the squad should be chosen by randomly selecting 11 people from the top 100 players in the country. The current method doesn't seem to be working particularly well.
Or they could randomly pick 11 people from the country....0 -
Rather surprised to see in a BBC prediction of European politics for 2018 the reporter to comment thusly, in relation to Macron in comparison to other hyped leaders:
In 2018, I'm interested to see if Mr Macron - dubbed "the emperor" by some - lives up to the hype at home and abroad.
Or will this be a case - rather like Barack Obama who famously received a Nobel Peace Prize before he really achieved anything - of peaking too early?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-424336690 -
You’d probably have done better than some of the players we did pick.AndyJS said:
Good idea, I've always wanted to play for England, lol.MarkHopkins said:AndyJS said:The next time England tour Australia, I think the squad should be chosen by randomly selecting 11 people from the top 100 players in the country. The current method doesn't seem to be working particularly well.
Or they could randomly pick 11 people from the country....0 -
I reckon the 14 year old me would have taken more wickets than Moeen has given the same number of overs.Sandpit said:
You’d probably have done better than some of the players we did pick.AndyJS said:
Good idea, I've always wanted to play for England, lol.MarkHopkins said:AndyJS said:The next time England tour Australia, I think the squad should be chosen by randomly selecting 11 people from the top 100 players in the country. The current method doesn't seem to be working particularly well.
Or they could randomly pick 11 people from the country....0 -
I'm struggling to see how a speech by Macron could decisively change sentiment in this country.Barnesian said:
I think a lot of Remainers (and sorry Leavers) think Brexit is now inevitable and are resigned to it. "Let's move on" or "Let's go for a soft Brexit". And that, of course, is how passionate Leavers want Brexit to seem - inevitable.CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248RobD said:
But will the public want one? That doesn’t look likely.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
But if it ceases to seem inevitable for any reason, there will be a tipping point and sentiment could quickly change. Catalysts could be a big fallout in the Cabinet, or a major blockage by the HoL, or an intervention by Macron (please stay), or serious FTA problems.
I've said (for months) the only thing that could is the EU offering a new deal for the UK to Remain, but they're too short-sighted to see it.0 -
They may be 16% (or up to 20%) but they are amongst the wealthiest, best connected and most influential in the country, with lots of friends and sympathisers in Government, big business, trade associations in the capital, and in the media and arts.david_herdson said:
The sneering metropolitan elite - which includes Adonis: speaking on behalf of the 16%. But as in their minds, they're the only ones who count, 16 is greater than 84.Elliot said:
This polling is a helpful reminder that most Remainers are not the spiteful types that think anyone that disagrees with them is a racist yokel.CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248RobD said:
But will the public want one? That doesn’t look likely.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/9471225610029834250 -
He was nominated 11 days after he took office.kle4 said:Rather surprised to see in a BBC prediction of European politics for 2018 the reporter to comment thusly, in relation to Macron in comparison to other hyped leaders:
In 2018, I'm interested to see if Mr Macron - dubbed "the emperor" by some - lives up to the hype at home and abroad.
Or will this be a case - rather like Barack Obama who famously received a Nobel Peace Prize before he really achieved anything - of peaking too early?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-424336690 -
I think the numbers may shift, but only once the form of the final deal becomes clear, the economy seems largely unaffected (by which I mean ongoing growth) and the Government articulates new policies and policy options.Elliot said:
Even if support among Remainers doubled, you would still only have 40% of the population, when realistically you need 65%+ for politicians to be willing to overturn the result, or even run another referendum. Cabinet ministers or unelected Lords blocking it would likely be seen badly by the public, and I doubt FTA negotiation details are the sort of thing that preoccupy the British public too much.Barnesian said:
I think a lot of Remainers (and sorry Leavers) think Brexit is now inevitable and are resigned to it. "Let's move on" or "Let's go for a soft Brexit". And that, of course, is how passionate Leavers want Brexit to seem - inevitable.CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248RobD said:
But will the public want one? That doesn’t look likely.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
But if it ceases to seem inevitable for any reason, there will be a tipping point and sentiment could quickly change. Catalysts could be a big fallout in the Cabinet, or a major blockage by the HoL, or an intervention by Macron (please stay), or serious FTA problems.
The bump in Brexit support after the interim deal actually suggests there is a bigger latent majority for Brexit, which is held down by them thinking the negotiations are being screwed up.
It's possible they stay locked in until GE2022, though, as opinions have become so entrenched.0 -
Sadly that's probably true. In 1983, just a month before the general election, Labour won a big victory in Basildon in the local elections, and then at the general election they lost the seat.stevef said:But local elections are almost totally irrelevant to national politics, and have no bearing whatsoever on general elections.
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And they all hang out with each other almost exclusively, so they observe that 90% of the people (that they speak to) think Brexit is stupid and still don’t understand why they lost the referendum even 18 months later.Casino_Royale said:
They may be 16% (or up to 20%) but they are amongst the wealthiest, best connected and most influential in the country, with lots of friends and sympathisers in Government, big business, trade associations in the capital, and in the media and arts.david_herdson said:
The sneering metropolitan elite - which includes Adonis: speaking on behalf of the 16%. But as in their minds, they're the only ones who count, 16 is greater than 84.Elliot said:
This polling is a helpful reminder that most Remainers are not the spiteful types that think anyone that disagrees with them is a racist yokel.CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248RobD said:
But will the public want one? That doesn’t look likely.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/9471225610029834250 -
It's not impossible that that happens, but a "rejoin" campaign would start from a position of full membership meaning applying to join a federal union, with adoption of the euro and Schengen required, amongst many others things, and all other UK opt-outs lost.CarlottaVance said:It seems that Adonis accepts that Brexit cannot be stopped or changed, and is preparing the ground for the longer struggle. Far from being a call to arms against Brexit, it could be that Adonis’s resignation marks the moment the ultra-Remainers admit defeat in this war and start to prepare to fight the next one.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/andrew-adonis-theresa-may-eu-resignation-rejoin-brexit-a8134671.html
I think the greatest enemy of a rejoin campaign would be the arch-Remainers themselves. The likes of AC Grayling, Jo Maugham and Alastair Campbell would think they'd made their point and revert to UK politics c.2000-2002, and, in so doing, massively overplay their hand.
And lose.0 -
This Iranian hoo- hah is picking up steam.0
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You've just described those who have no experience of being losers.Casino_Royale said:
They may be 16% (or up to 20%) but they are amongst the wealthiest, best connected and most influential in the country, with lots of friends and sympathisers in Government, big business, trade associations in the capital, and in the media and arts.david_herdson said:
The sneering metropolitan elite - which includes Adonis: speaking on behalf of the 16%. But as in their minds, they're the only ones who count, 16 is greater than 84.Elliot said:
This polling is a helpful reminder that most Remainers are not the spiteful types that think anyone that disagrees with them is a racist yokel.CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248RobD said:
But will the public want one? That doesn’t look likely.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
And boy, does it show....0 -
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.0 -
Brits love to think they're doomed.Sandpit said:
Agree entirely. The other issue is that demand for housing is closely correlated with supply and demand of mortgage finance. As soon as house prices start to fall banks will want higher deposits which will cause further price falls as demand dries up. It could take a fair few years for that situation to normalise, during and after which time, as you say, there will be huge problems of negative equity - as was seen in the early 1990s.rcs1000 said:
The big, unacknowledged, problem is that we're addicted to the Bank of Bricks and Mortar.Sandpit said:
What is he suggesting we do about it?Pong said:https://twitter.com/NickJTimothy/status/947118142437953542
Spot on.
The tories need to apologize to this chap and beg him to come back on board.
Let's say we increase supply through more building, lower demand by cutting immigration, and therefore reduce the price of housing by 30%. This makes it much easier for millennials to end up home owners, which is good.
But it also results in dramatically lower labour mobility, as people with negative equity can no longer move house. It also means that people up their savings rate to compensate for no longer having as much equity in their home. This would result in a significant reduction in the level of aggregate demand, likely tipping the economy into recession.
Gordon Brown and George Osborne made a terrible mess of the UK economy. It will likely take another decade, and a Chancellor of the caliber of Howe, Lawson or Clarke, to turn it back around.
Of course, we'll face some big challenges. But, overall, I'm not worried: there's very few places (if any) I'd rather live.0 -
Only to political obsessives are local election results mid-term of any relevance.
Corbyn is just
not going to win despite his cult following with the young.
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What's interesting is that that group, which is very London dominant, probably up until the 1990s, would historically have split between the Conservatives (Big Bang/privatisation/capitalist) and Labour (Hampstead/Islington/Fabian), ensuring some sort of debate.MarqueeMark said:
You've just described those who have no experience of being losers.Casino_Royale said:
They may be 16% (or up to 20%) but they are amongst the wealthiest, best connected and most influential in the country, with lots of friends and sympathisers in Government, big business, trade associations in the capital, and in the media and arts.david_herdson said:
The sneering metropolitan elite - which includes Adonis: speaking on behalf of the 16%. But as in their minds, they're the only ones who count, 16 is greater than 84.Elliot said:
This polling is a helpful reminder that most Remainers are not the spiteful types that think anyone that disagrees with them is a racist yokel.CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248RobD said:
But will the public want one? That doesn’t look likely.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
And boy, does it show....
Now, it's cultural, political and economic interests are very much aligned.0 -
Yep. I can't wait for flying pickets, secondary strike actions, and the return of the closed shop.Pong said:
The dire situation today's FTB'ers could be facing is signing up for the first situation and a couple of years later finding themselves dealing with the second situation.Philip_Thompson said:
No. It depends upon both how much you can buy and how much you can pay.FrankBooth said:
Isn't that attitude typical of what is wrong. That what really matters is whether you are able to buy not how much debt you are taking on?Sandpit said:
I always wonder if those wishing house prices to fall have factored in mortgage offers being 80% LTV rather than 95%. For a first time buyer, the issues around finance are much more important than issues around the actual price of the property.rcs1000 said:
It's a very good point: falling house prices means lower mortgage availability, and higher net interest margins.Sandpit said:
Agree entirely.rcs1000 said:
The big, unacknowledged, problem is that we're addicted to the Bank of Bricks and Mortar.Sandpit said:
What is he suggesting we do about it?Pong said:https://twitter.com/NickJTimothy/status/947118142437953542
Spot on.
The tories need to apologize to this chap and beg him to come back on board.
Let's say we increase supply through more building, lower demand by cutting immigration, and therefore reduce the price of housing by 30%. This makes it much easier for millennials to end up home owners, which is good.
But it also results in dramatically lower labour mobility, as people with negative equity can no longer move house. It also means that people up their savings rate to compensate for no longer having as much equity in their home. This would result in a significant reduction in the level of aggregate demand, likely tipping the economy into recession.
Gordon Brown and George Osborne made a terrible mess of the UK economy. It will likely take another decade, and a Chancellor of the caliber of Howe, Lawson or Clarke, to turn it back around.
I'd rather buy a house for say 200k at 3% interest than 100k at 15% interest. The money I'm losing is the interest.
£100k negative equity + high interest rates.
What the economy really needs is wage rises to square the circle.
Labour needs to organise. To reunionise and get back into power.0 -
Casino_Royale said:
It's not impossible that that happens, but a "rejoin" campaign would start from a position of full membership meaning applying to join a federal union, with adoption of the euro and Schengen required, amongst many others things, and all other UK opt-outs lost.CarlottaVance said:It seems that Adonis accepts that Brexit cannot be stopped or changed, and is preparing the ground for the longer struggle. Far from being a call to arms against Brexit, it could be that Adonis’s resignation marks the moment the ultra-Remainers admit defeat in this war and start to prepare to fight the next one.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/andrew-adonis-theresa-may-eu-resignation-rejoin-brexit-a8134671.html
I think the greatest enemy of a rejoin campaign would be the arch-Remainers themselves. The likes of AC Grayling, Jo Maugham and Alastair Campbell would think they'd made their point and revert to UK politics c.2000-2002, and, in so doing, massively overplay their hand.
And lose.
Adonis is also looking for a job in due course with Corbyn and so stands in the long tradition of "principled" new Labour politicians.
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They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.0 -
It basically says 'but don't worry about it, it won't happen in your lifetime'...williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.0 -
Quite so. It is an absolutely crap argument, and not just because it comes from the Daily Mail. I was there then and I am here now and I am not my children's children, I'm me.RobD said:
It basically says 'but don't worry about it, it won't happen in your lifetime'...williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.0 -
I'm not sure an argument that it was all in the small print from the start, and more fool you for not reading it, is going to win many over to your side.williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.0 -
Heath made the political case openly and unapologetically. It won then and will win again.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not sure an argument that it was all in the small print from the start, and more fool you for not reading it, is going to win many over to your side.williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.0 -
Yes, it was the British people's yearning for political union that won the day back in the 70s....williamglenn said:
Heath made the political case openly and unapologetically. It won then and will win again.0 -
The bit which says "if and when our children or children's children want to join Europe into one integrated nation"?williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.
Why were you lot so afraid to ask?0 -
The Ballot Paper referred to the Common Market, as did the official Government booklet sent out to every household, and both the PM and the Leader of the Opposition (one Margaret Thatcher) consistently referred to it as such.RobD said:
It basically says 'but don't worry about it, it won't happen in your lifetime'...williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If .IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe .IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.
Suggestions of full political union were either considered fanciful, and dismissed, or played down - as, indeed, they have been at each successive European treaty ever since.
I think Edward Heath both knew and supported the endgame, but most other British political leaders wouldn't have given it much more thought other than it was idealistic rhetoric grounded in the desire to avoid yet another terrible conflict within Europe, whilst at the same time keeping the Soviets without.0 -
There should be a Godwins Law equivalent for mentions of the Daily Mail.RobD said:
It basically says 'but don't worry about it, it won't happen in your lifetime'...williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.0 -
RobD said:
Yes, it was the British people's yearning for political union that won the day back in the 70s....williamglenn said:
Heath made the political case openly and unapologetically. It won then and will win again.
To: RobD
Pay: £Billions (EU says)
For: Broken sarcasm meter
0 -
Every single word is something I have argued at some point in the last 18 months particularly:williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.
Political Union will not happen unless and until the nation states are all ready
We should have the confidence of our own influence in the project
It should probably not happen in my lifetime
All still bang on in 2017.
The trouble with Leavers was that they always seek to do Britain down when it comes to the influence she had within Europe and the EU.
0 -
Except it didn't win last year, did it? And you lost the vast majority of those voters you did win over at the time in the intervening 40 years.williamglenn said:
Heath made the political case openly and unapologetically. It won then and will win again.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not sure an argument that it was all in the small print from the start, and more fool you for not reading it, is going to win many over to your side.williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
httpNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.
You need to hang your hat on something a little more robust than false-consciousness of the electorate, or bravado.0 -
Godwin had no mandate from the people to make a law. He must have been a EU commissioner.basicbridge said:
There should be a Godwins Law equivalent for mentions of the Daily Mail.RobD said:
It basically says 'but don't worry about it, it won't happen in your lifetime'...williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.0 -
Godwin's Directive.stevef said:
Godwin had no mandate from the people to make a law. He must have been a EU commissioner.basicbridge said:
There should be a Godwins Law equivalent for mentions of the Daily Mail.RobD said:
It basically says 'but don't worry about it, it won't happen in your lifetime'...williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.
0 -
Who decides if all the nation states are ready? And what if they subsequently decide it was a mistake, and not for them?Pro_Rata said:
Every single word is something I have argued at some point in the last 18 months particularly:williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
T had.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If there.IanB2 said:kle4 said:
risky.IanB2 said:CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Political Union will not happen unless and until the nation states are all ready
We should have the confidence of our own influence in the project
It should probably not happen in my lifetime
All still bang on in 2017.
The trouble with Leavers was that they always seek to do Britain down when it comes to the influence she had within Europe and the EU.
One of the reasons I voted Leave was because the last Labour Government, preceded by the previous Conservative administration, both took it upon themselves to decide that for me without any further national consultation.
I didn't have any confidence that future Governments, particularly Labour Governments, wouldn't do the same again off the back of a 2016 mandate, notwithstanding the rather loosely worded European Union Act 2011. And, in any event, the Lisbon Treaty was sufficiently broad in scope and remit to give a lot of latitude to the CJEU and EU institutions to pursue further jurisprudence and integration without reference to either.0 -
Given that the PM, CotE, HS and FS and LOTO officially supported Yes, what is the justification for treating the recently ex LOTO as the mouthpiece of the Yes campaign? Is it because nobody higher up the batting order said what you want them to have said?williamglenn said:
Heath made the political case openly and unapologetically. It won then and will win again.0 -
Noone should read the Daily Mail. Its a thoroughly nasty little paper, Little Englander mentality, pandering to peoples worst sentiments.RobD said:
It basically says 'but don't worry about it, it won't happen in your lifetime'...williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.0 -
No it's not still bang on. The Euro changed things.Pro_Rata said:
Every single word is something I have argued at some point in the last 18 months particularly:williamglenn said:They should have read the Daily Mail:
Political Union will not happen unless and until the nation states are all ready
We should have the confidence of our own influence in the project
It should probably not happen in my lifetime
All still bang on in 2017.
The trouble with Leavers was that they always seek to do Britain down when it comes to the influence she had within Europe and the EU.0 -
What did it change? No-one’s stopping us from joining.Philip_Thompson said:
No it's not still bang on. The Euro changed things.Pro_Rata said:
Every single word is something I have argued at some point in the last 18 months particularly:williamglenn said:They should have read the Daily Mail:
Political Union will not happen unless and until the nation states are all ready
We should have the confidence of our own influence in the project
It should probably not happen in my lifetime
All still bang on in 2017.
The trouble with Leavers was that they always seek to do Britain down when it comes to the influence she had within Europe and the EU.0 -
Indeed the Daily Mail (75 edition) was correct in saying that we weren't joining a political union and wouldn't until we were ready.williamglenn said:
They should have read the Daily Mail:Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.
But an irreversible divergence occured after Maastricht. The Euro was the political union equivalent of a child playing hide and seek saying "ready or not, here I come".0 -
Just the voters.williamglenn said:
What did it change? No-one’s stopping us from joining.Philip_Thompson said:
No it's not still bang on. The Euro changed things.Pro_Rata said:
Every single word is something I have argued at some point in the last 18 months particularly:williamglenn said:They should have read the Daily Mail:
Political Union will not happen unless and until the nation states are all ready
We should have the confidence of our own influence in the project
It should probably not happen in my lifetime
All still bang on in 2017.
The trouble with Leavers was that they always seek to do Britain down when it comes to the influence she had within Europe and the EU.
That perennial fly in the ointment of the European Project. Ungrateful bastards. Can't they see how much effort the Eurocrats put into trying to save them the effort of actually voting?0 -
"Political union will not come unless and until we - and the French and the Germans - are ready for it. And we're nowhere near ready for it now, and a lot of us probably won't live to see it."williamglenn said:
What did it change? No-one’s stopping us from joining.Philip_Thompson said:
No it's not still bang on. The Euro changed things.Pro_Rata said:
Every single word is something I have argued at some point in the last 18 months particularly:williamglenn said:They should have read the Daily Mail:
Political Union will not happen unless and until the nation states are all ready
We should have the confidence of our own influence in the project
It should probably not happen in my lifetime
All still bang on in 2017.
The trouble with Leavers was that they always seek to do Britain down when it comes to the influence she had within Europe and the EU.
Your solution is to join the Euro but unless we're ready for political union that's the wrong move. Your own link says we're not ready for it and it won't happen until we are. That's what's changed.0 -
Has Davis gone rogue?0
-
Lol - William has got your gas at a peep.
You won’t draw him out of his EU Opus Dei sanctum to the god of one unaccountable government spanning from Kerry to Kiev. Thankfully he’s in there for the duration..0 -
Non story, Davis just told a think tank the progress of the talks meant there was now less chance of no deal and less chance of no Brexitwilliamglenn said:Has Davis gone rogue?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5239069/brexit-secretary-david-davis-britain-may-never-leave-the-eu/0 -
LOVE....THE.....DARTS.....0
-
Adonis is looking for a job from Corbyn?basicbridge said:Casino_Royale said:
It's not impossible that that happens, but a "rejoin" campaign would start from a position of full membership meaning applying to join a federal union, with adoption of the euro and Schengen required, amongst many others things, and all other UK opt-outs lost.CarlottaVance said:It seems that Adonis accepts that Brexit cannot be stopped or changed, and is preparing the ground for the longer struggle. Far from being a call to arms against Brexit, it could be that Adonis’s resignation marks the moment the ultra-Remainers admit defeat in this war and start to prepare to fight the next one.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/andrew-adonis-theresa-may-eu-resignation-rejoin-brexit-a8134671.html
I think the greatest enemy of a rejoin campaign would be the arch-Remainers themselves. The likes of AC Grayling, Jo Maugham and Alastair Campbell would think they'd made their point and revert to UK politics c.2000-2002, and, in so doing, massively overplay their hand.
And lose.
Adonis is also looking for a job in due course with Corbyn and so stands in the long tradition of "principled" new Labour politicians.
The great philosopher John McEnroe had an apt phrase for that...0 -
For excitement Star Wars isn’t in the same universe as that semi final of the darts!0
-
Blairite twat?dixiedean said:
Adonis is looking for a job from Corbyn?basicbridge said:Casino_Royale said:
It's not impossible that that happens, but a "rejoin" campaign would start from a position of full membership meaning applying to join a federal union, with adoption of the euro and Schengen required, amongst many others things, and all other UK opt-outs lost.CarlottaVance said:It seems that Adonis accepts that Brexit cannot be stopped or changed, and is preparing the ground for the longer struggle. Far from being a call to arms against Brexit, it could be that Adonis’s resignation marks the moment the ultra-Remainers admit defeat in this war and start to prepare to fight the next one.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/andrew-adonis-theresa-may-eu-resignation-rejoin-brexit-a8134671.html
I think the greatest enemy of a rejoin campaign would be the arch-Remainers themselves. The likes of AC Grayling, Jo Maugham and Alastair Campbell would think they'd made their point and revert to UK politics c.2000-2002, and, in so doing, massively overplay their hand.
And lose.
Adonis is also looking for a job in due course with Corbyn and so stands in the long tradition of "principled" new Labour politicians.
The great philosopher John McEnroe had an apt phrase for that...0 -
Cross just made me significantly better offFrancisUrquhart said:LOVE....THE.....DARTS.....
0 -
Yokel been on to comment on Iran ?
0 -
You are calling them stupid? How elitist!Casino_Royale said:
Those who are old now were young then.CarlottaVance said:
Unless people's views change as they get older......kle4 said:
If the public does turn against, the LDs deserve to be the ones who benefit, since they have been pretty clear where they stand (not entirely, there was confusion about remain/rejoin post referendum). But other factors in who benefits most in a two party system will always count against them there.IanB2 said:
As are the LibDems.kle4 said:
Maybe politicians should have courage of their convictions and try leading debates rather than merely responding to them. If nothing else, if they actually want to go down that path, relying on the public to get to that point without such leadership is very risky.IanB2 said:
Labour will call for one, once the public wants one. And not before.CarlottaVance said:Mr Pedley of this Parish:
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/947122561002983425
It'll work itself out over time, I'm not worried.NickPalmer said:
Huh. Thought so.TheWhiteRabbit said:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j689my8z0m/TheChallenge_Nov17_Results_w.pdfNickPalmer said:
I'm always suspicious of polls quoted to prove a point where the full question and range of answers isn't stated. I suspect here that there were four or more options, with "2nd referendum" being at one extreme.RobD said:
Some of those numbers are surprisingly low.CarlottaVance said:
twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/946463439437877248
Helpfully 2nd vote / abandon Brexit entirely got about the same number of responses, so you can double the numbers if you want a full picture of "no Brexit"
Edit: some of the other results show a worryingly stark generational gap. Two nations, really.
Most of those aged 18-34 who voted in the 1975, full of youthful optimism, voted to Leave in 2016.
They thought they were voting for a common market, but were had.
I was just, but only just, too young to vote in the last referendum. But I remember very well the debate. It was rather higher in standard than the latter one. Of course it was obvious we were joining a political project not just some common market arrangement.0 -
Possibly the best and most important speech on the EU/EEC was made my Mr Hugh Gaitskill around 55 years ago: https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/05f2996b-000b-4576-8b42-8069033a16f9/publishable_en.pdf0
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Do you really find anything compelling in that speech? Apart from anything else, his main sound bite is completely ahistoric. Britain didn't exist as an independent state for a thousand years.rcs1000 said:Possibly the best and most important speech on the EU/EEC was made my Mr Hugh Gaitskill around 55 years ago: https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/05f2996b-000b-4576-8b42-8069033a16f9/publishable_en.pdf
I can't believe you find the economic arguments relevant, and time has proven that his 'tests' for the kind of Europe he would wish to join have been met.0 -
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Oh I know, and agree with the reporter, I'm just surprised a bbc story woukd permit such a direct statement on it.Tim_B said:
He was nominated 11 days after he took office.kle4 said:Rather surprised to see in a BBC prediction of European politics for 2018 the reporter to comment thusly, in relation to Macron in comparison to other hyped leaders:
In 2018, I'm interested to see if Mr Macron - dubbed "the emperor" by some - lives up to the hype at home and abroad.
Or will this be a case - rather like Barack Obama who famously received a Nobel Peace Prize before he really achieved anything - of peaking too early?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-424336690 -
Gauke showed poor emotional intelligence in the charging phone lines to people on universal credit issue recently.Lidlington is older than May.Andrea Leadsom will have alienated lots of Tory MP`s during sexual harassment charges.Penny Mordaunt will have more appeal both to Brexiteers and the general public than Leadsom .
Thinking outside the box if May were to change senior cabinet posts this year she might replace Davis with Steve Baker,Hammond with Greg Clark or Liz Truss ,Boris with Rory Stewart.0
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