Its a classic example of the self denying prophecy in politics: predict something will happen often enough and people vote to make the opposite happen. Churchill was predicted to win in 1945, Attlee in 1951, Wilson was predicted for a landslide in 64, Wilson was predicted for a third term in 1970, when Heath asked "who governs Britain in February, everybody predicted the voters would reply "you". Wilson was predicted for a landslide in October 74, Thatcher's vote in 83 was expected to go up not down after the Falklands, Neil Kinnock was predicted to enter Number Ten in 1992 ("We're ALLLL right!",) Blair was expected to win a third landslide in 2005, Cameron was expected to win a majority in 2010, Miliband was predicted for a coalition with the SNP in 2015, May was predicted for a landslide in 2017. Predict it often enough and the opposite happens.
Right now everyone is predicting over and over again that Corbyn will win the next election , his followers are asserting it with religious zeal, and -fatally -the Messiah is predicting it himself.
Corbyn and the Corbytrons -beware the self denying prophecy, one of the most powerful forces in politics.
It's possible that a lot of people voted for Corbyn as a protest vote, safe in the knowledge that he "couldn't win", just as they often do in a by-election when they know the result can't affect which party is in government.
I think thats exactly what happened -and a lot of older Tories did not vote at all because they believed May was safe and wanted to protest by staying at home. This is the group who will come out next time and deliver the self denying prophecy factor.
That's what many are hoping, but I don't see much evidence for it being true, even though it could be. Some may have stayed home because they thought Corbyn a loser, but now he looks like someone who could actually win and his internal critics lie at his feet, and maybe they will turn out as a result.
So where do Podemos sit in all this. Are they goodies or baddies for this one?
They're namby-pamby middle of the roaders, who believe Catalonia should get more powers, but remain part of Spain.
Which is nevertheless the right answer.
The Indys falling back a bit but still getting a tiny majority, and the government Party being nearly wiped out, is the worst outcome of all. Vindicating no-one. Unless failure all round leads to some calmer heads.
I am not so sure. This result solves nothing, but it does halt the momentum towards separation. A turnout of well over 80% has rejected UDI, which means a constitutional resolution has to be found. It also means the whole issue remains steadfastly an internal matter for Spain from an international perspective. That suits Madrid.
I doubt it. It would suit Madrid if there were any other party in charge but with the PP Government in place I don't see any chance at all of any concessions or even talks on any further powers for Catalonia or a constitutional settlement.
The PP have already overturned the new agreement made between Madrid and Barcelona - having fought it all the way whilst in opposition. I think they will simply continue the way they have done until now.
There is no single separatist party, though. Junts per Catalunya is centre right, ERC is left and CUP is far, far left. They will struggle to work together and are unlikely in the extreme to form a coalition.
They managed to work together before though, surely, which shows they could do it again? My totally uneducated reading would be that given the main two couldn't agree to form an electoral alliance this time that they probably will struggle to work together moving forward, especially given it is pretty unclear what that move forward could be. And while the UDI may have been rejected as you put it, that record turnout also endorsed the very parties who declared that UDI, so isn't that a mixed message too? What do their voters even want now, given a UDI again is pretty pointless?
It’s harder to work together now the voters have rejected UDI and backed a constitutional solution. There is no mandate for another illegal referendum, so what do they do?
Well, precisely. I suppose while this is not a result which really solves anything, stalemate still serves Madrid more than the separatists, since the union is the status quo.
Its a classic example of the self denying prophecy in politics: predict something will happen often enough and people vote to make the opposite happen. Churchill was predicted to win in 1945, Attlee in 1951, Wilson was predicted for a landslide in 64, Wilson was predicted for a third term in 1970, when Heath asked "who governs Britain in February, everybody predicted the voters would reply "you". Wilson was predicted for a landslide in October 74, Thatcher's vote in 83 was expected to go up not down after the Falklands, Neil Kinnock was predicted to enter Number Ten in 1992 ("We're ALLLL right!",) Blair was expected to win a third landslide in 2005, Cameron was expected to win a majority in 2010, Miliband was predicted for a coalition with the SNP in 2015, May was predicted for a landslide in 2017. Predict it often enough and the opposite happens.
Right now everyone is predicting over and over again that Corbyn will win the next election , his followers are asserting it with religious zeal, and -fatally -the Messiah is predicting it himself.
Corbyn and the Corbytrons -beware the self denying prophecy, one of the most powerful forces in politics.
It's possible that a lot of people voted for Corbyn as a protest vote, safe in the knowledge that he "couldn't win", just as they often do in a by-election when they know the result can't affect which party is in government.
I think that the roughly 1.6 million additional voters who turned out mostly voted for Corbyn personally and they had the most impact on the result. most of the other labour politicians could not do that. If you think that he'll be 70 in May 2019 the Tories may be able to 'wait him out' as it were
A spokesman for Mr Rajoy's Popular Party, José Ramón García Hernández, says the message of the election is that it's time to talk.
"When a society is divided you cannot be the element of division, you have to be the element of union," he told the BBC World Service's Newshour programme.
"And I think we open a new era of dialogue, a real dialogue."
Hypocritical fucker. Given it was he who vetoed any talks before and directly caused the crisis they have now.
So where do Podemos sit in all this. Are they goodies or baddies for this one?
They're namby-pamby middle of the roaders, who believe Catalonia should get more powers, but remain part of Spain.
Which is nevertheless the right answer.
The Indys falling back a bit but still getting a tiny majority, and the government Party being nearly wiped out, is the worst outcome of all. Vindicating no-one. Unless failure all round leads to some calmer heads.
I am not so sure. This result solves nothing, but it does halt the momentum towards separation. A turnout of well over 80% has rejected UDI, which means a constitutional resolution has to be found. It also means the whole issue remains steadfastly an internal matter for Spain from an international perspective. That suits Madrid.
I doubt it. It would suit Madrid if there were any other party in charge but with the PP Government in place I don't see any chance at all of any concessions or even talks on any further powers for Catalonia or a constitutional settlement.
The PP have already overturned the new agreement made between Madrid and Barcelona - having fought it all the way whilst in opposition. I think they will simply continue the way they have done until now.
There is no single separatist party, though. Junts per Catalunya is centre right, ERC is left and CUP is far, far left. They will struggle to work together and are unlikely in the extreme to form a coalition. With vote share down and certainly below 50% UDI has been rejected in the highest turnout poll Catalonia has ever had.
It makes no difference. The PP have already rejected the sensible devolution settlement that was made by the previous national administration. I can hardly see them changing their minds about that given they went to the Constitutional Court to get a judgement to stop it.
Its a classic example of the self denying prophecy in politics: predict something will happen often enough and people vote to make the opposite happen. Churchill was predicted to win in 1945, Attlee in 1951, Wilson was predicted for a landslide in 64, Wilson was predicted for a third term in 1970, when Heath asked "who governs Britain in February, everybody predicted the voters would reply "you". Wilson was predicted for a landslide in October 74, Thatcher's vote in 83 was expected to go up not down after the Falklands, Neil Kinnock was predicted to enter Number Ten in 1992 ("We're ALLLL right!",) Blair was expected to win a third landslide in 2005, Cameron was expected to win a majority in 2010, Miliband was predicted for a coalition with the SNP in 2015, May was predicted for a landslide in 2017. Predict it often enough and the opposite happens.
Right now everyone is predicting over and over again that Corbyn will win the next election , his followers are asserting it with religious zeal, and -fatally -the Messiah is predicting it himself.
Corbyn and the Corbytrons -beware the self denying prophecy, one of the most powerful forces in politics.
It's possible that a lot of people voted for Corbyn as a protest vote, safe in the knowledge that he "couldn't win", just as they often do in a by-election when they know the result can't affect which party is in government.
I think that the roughly 1.6 million additional voters who turned out mostly voted for Corbyn personally and they had the most impact on the result. most of the other labour politicians could not do that. If you think that he'll be 70 in May 2019 the Tories may be able to 'wait him out' as it were
I think that is only true of the younger voters. A lot of voters voted Labour to stop a Theresa May landslide (as was predicted) and to stop a hard Brexit. A lot of older Tories stayed at home, They wont next time.
Its a classic example of the self denying prophecy in politics: predict something will happen often enough and people vote to make the opposite happen. Churchill was predicted to win in 1945, Attlee in 1951, Wilson was predicted for a landslide in 64, Wilson was predicted for a third term in 1970, when Heath asked "who governs Britain in February, everybody predicted the voters would reply "you". Wilson was predicted for a landslide in October 74, Thatcher's vote in 83 was expected to go up not down after the Falklands, Neil Kinnock was predicted to enter Number Ten in 1992 ("We're ALLLL right!",) Blair was expected to win a third landslide in 2005, Cameron was expected to win a majority in 2010, Miliband was predicted for a coalition with the SNP in 2015, May was predicted for a landslide in 2017. Predict it often enough and the opposite happens.
Right now everyone is predicting over and over again that Corbyn will win the next election , his followers are asserting it with religious zeal, and -fatally -the Messiah is predicting it himself.
Corbyn and the Corbytrons -beware the self denying prophecy, one of the most powerful forces in politics.
It's possible that a lot of people voted for Corbyn as a protest vote, safe in the knowledge that he "couldn't win", just as they often do in a by-election when they know the result can't affect which party is in government.
I think that the roughly 1.6 million additional voters who turned out mostly voted for Corbyn personally and they had the most impact on the result. most of the other labour politicians could not do that. If you think that he'll be 70 in May 2019 the Tories may be able to 'wait him out' as it were
It'll be fascinating to see whether he can keep Labour at around 41% in the polls during 2018. That's their current average rating, which is exactly the same as what they got at the general election.
So where do Podemos sit in all this. Are they goodies or baddies for this one?
They're namby-pamby middle of the roaders, who believe Catalonia should get more powers, but remain part of Spain.
Which is nevertheless the right answer.
The Indys falling back a bit but still getting a tiny majority, and the government Party being nearly wiped out, is the worst outcome of all. Vindicating no-one. Unless failure all round leads to some calmer heads.
I am not so sure. This result solves nothing, but it does halt the momentum towards separation. A turnout of well over 80% has rejected UDI, which means a constitutional resolution has to be found. It also means the whole issue remains steadfastly an internal matter for Spain from an international perspective. That suits Madrid.
I doubt it. It would suit Madrid if there were any other party in charge but with the PP Government in place I don't see any chance at all of any concessions or even talks on any further powers for Catalonia or a constitutional settlement.
The PP have already overturned the new agreement made between Madrid and Barcelona - having fought it all the way whilst in opposition. I think they will simply continue the way they have done until now.
There is no single separatist party, though. Junts per Catalunya is centre right, ERC is left and CUP is far, far left. They will struggle to work together and are unlikely in the extreme to form a coalition. With vote share down and certainly below 50% UDI has been rejected in the highest turnout poll Catalonia has ever had.
It makes no difference. The PP have already rejected the sensible devolution settlement that was made by the previous national administration. I can hardly see them changing their minds about that given they went to the Constitutional Court to get a judgement to stop it.
As the biggest gainers in Catalonia, perhaps Ciudadanos' suggestions, whatever that may be, will gain momentum, even though the PP are the largest grouping nationally?
A spokesman for Mr Rajoy's Popular Party, José Ramón García Hernández, says the message of the election is that it's time to talk.
"When a society is divided you cannot be the element of division, you have to be the element of union," he told the BBC World Service's Newshour programme.
"And I think we open a new era of dialogue, a real dialogue."
Hypocritical fucker. Given it was he who vetoed any talks before and directly caused the crisis they have now.
It is nevertheless a hopeful sign - since no-one can claim victory and everyone has something to lose, we can only hope they'll sort out some settlement. The next Spanish GE is due probably 2020.
Its a classic example of the self denying prophecy in politics: predict something will happen often enough and people vote to make the opposite happen. Churchill was predicted to win in 1945, Attlee in 1951, Wilson was predicted for a landslide in 64, Wilson was predicted for a third term in 1970, when Heath asked "who governs Britain in February, everybody predicted the voters would reply "you". Wilson was predicted for a landslide in October 74, Thatcher's vote in 83 was expected to go up not down after the Falklands, Neil Kinnock was predicted to enter Number Ten in 1992 ("We're ALLLL right!",) Blair was expected to win a third landslide in 2005, Cameron was expected to win a majority in 2010, Miliband was predicted for a coalition with the SNP in 2015, May was predicted for a landslide in 2017. Predict it often enough and the opposite happens.
Right now everyone is predicting over and over again that Corbyn will win the next election , his followers are asserting it with religious zeal, and -fatally -the Messiah is predicting it himself.
Corbyn and the Corbytrons -beware the self denying prophecy, one of the most powerful forces in politics.
It's possible that a lot of people voted for Corbyn as a protest vote, safe in the knowledge that he "couldn't win", just as they often do in a by-election when they know the result can't affect which party is in government.
I think thats exactly what happened -and a lot of older Tories did not vote at all because they believed May was safe and wanted to protest by staying at home. This is the group who will come out next time and deliver the self denying prophecy factor.
That's what many are hoping, but I don't see much evidence for it being true, even though it could be. Some may have stayed home because they thought Corbyn a loser, but now he looks like someone who could actually win and his internal critics lie at his feet, and maybe they will turn out as a result.
I don't see it either. If anything, Labour's polling has increased since the election, showing that Corbynism is more than a protest vote.
Just watched the lady who reported Damian Green Kate Maltby. Complete contrast to Weinstein's PA who was transparently honest. This one strikes me as a publicity seeking phony.
Its a classic example of the self denying prophecy in politics: predict something will happen often enough and people vote to make the opposite happen. Churchill was predicted to win in 1945, Attlee in 1951, Wilson was predicted for a landslide in 64, Wilson was predicted for a third term in 1970, when Heath asked "who governs Britain in February, everybody predicted the voters would reply "you". Wilson was predicted for a landslide in October 74, Thatcher's vote in 83 was expected to go up not down after the Falklands, Neil Kinnock was predicted to enter Number Ten in 1992 ("We're ALLLL right!",) Blair was expected to win a third landslide in 2005, Cameron was expected to win a majority in 2010, Miliband was predicted for a coalition with the SNP in 2015, May was predicted for a landslide in 2017. Predict it often enough and the opposite happens.
Right now everyone is predicting over and over again that Corbyn will win the next election , his followers are asserting it with religious zeal, and -fatally -the Messiah is predicting it himself.
Corbyn and the Corbytrons -beware the self denying prophecy, one of the most powerful forces in politics.
It's possible that a lot of people voted for Corbyn as a protest vote, safe in the knowledge that he "couldn't win", just as they often do in a by-election when they know the result can't affect which party is in government.
I think that the roughly 1.6 million additional voters who turned out mostly voted for Corbyn personally and they had the most impact on the result. most of the other labour politicians could not do that. If you think that he'll be 70 in May 2019 the Tories may be able to 'wait him out' as it were
It'll be fascinating to see whether he can keep Labour at around 41% in the polls during 2018. That's their current average rating, which is exactly the same as what they got at the general election.
A by-election now in a Tory seat could be fascinating.
So where do Podemos sit in all this. Are they goodies or baddies for this one?
They're namby-pamby middle of the roaders, who believe Catalonia should get more powers, but remain part of Spain.
Which is nevertheless the right answer.
The Indys falling back a bit but still getting a tiny majority, and the government Party being nearly wiped out, is the worst outcome of all. Vindicating no-one. Unless failure all round leads to some calmer heads.
I am not so sure. This result solves nothing, but it does halt the momentum towards separation. A turnout of well over 80% has rejected UDI, which means a constitutional resolution has to be found. It also means the whole issue remains steadfastly an internal matter for Spain from an international perspective. That suits Madrid.
I doubt it. It would suit Madrid if there were any other party in charge but with the PP Government in place I don't see any chance at all of any concessions or even talks on any further powers for Catalonia or a constitutional settlement.
The PP have already overturned the new agreement made between Madrid and Barcelona - having fought it all the way whilst in opposition. I think they will simply continue the way they have done until now.
There is no single separatist party, though. Junts per Catalunya is centre right, ERC is left and CUP is far, far left. They will struggle to work together and are unlikely in the extreme to form a coalition. With vote share down and certainly below 50% UDI has been rejected in the highest turnout poll Catalonia has ever had.
It makes no difference. The PP have already rejected the sensible devolution settlement that was made by the previous national administration. I can hardly see them changing their minds about that given they went to the Constitutional Court to get a judgement to stop it.
Yep, PP is the stumbling block, but even they cannot continue to be as utterly, pig-headedly stupid as they have been up to now. Catalonia has rejected UDI and made clear it wants a constitutional solution. I suspect this may - finally - be the start of something. PP is losing support nationally and tonight is a humiliation for them.
Well done to Puidgemont's lot though I suppose, given the lefty separatists were expected to do better than them. Bragging rights obtained at least I guess.
So where do Podemos sit in all this. Are they goodies or baddies for this one?
They're namby-pamby middle of the roaders, who believe Catalonia should get more powers, but remain part of Spain.
Which is nevertheless the right answer.
The Indys falling back a bit but still getting a tiny majority, and the government Party being nearly wiped out, is the worst outcome of all. Vindicating no-one. Unless failure all round leads to some calmer heads.
I am not so sure. This result solves nothing, but it does halt the momentum towards separation. A turnout of well over 80% has rejected UDI, which means a constitutional resolution has to be found. It also means the whole issue remains steadfastly an internal matter for Spain from an international perspective. That suits Madrid.
I doubt it. It would suit Madrid if there were any other party in charge but with the PP Government in place I don't see any chance at all of any concessions or even talks on any further powers for Catalonia or a constitutional settlement.
The PP have already overturned the new agreement made between Madrid and Barcelona - having fought it all the way whilst in opposition. I think they will simply continue the way they have done until now.
There is no single separatist party, though. Junts per Catalunya is centre right, ERC is left and CUP is far, far left. They will struggle to work together and are unlikely in the extreme to form a coalition.
They managed to work together before though, surely, which shows they could do it again? My totally uneducated reading would be that given the main two couldn't agree to form an electoral alliance this time that they probably will struggle to work together moving forward, especially given it is pretty unclear what that move forward could be. And while the UDI may have been rejected as you put it, that record turnout also endorsed the very parties who declared that UDI, so isn't that a mixed message too? What do their voters even want now, given a UDI again is pretty pointless?
It’s harder to work together now the voters have rejected UDI and backed a constitutional solution. There is no mandate for another illegal referendum, so what do they do?
How about a legal referendum, like we had in Scotland in 2014?
Its a classic example of the self denying prophecy in politics: predict something will happen often enough and people vote to make the opposite happen. Churchill was predicted to win in 1945, Attlee in 1951, Wilson was predicted for a landslide in 64, Wilson was predicted for a third term in 1970, when Heath asked "who governs Britain in February, everybody predicted the voters would reply "you". Wilson was predicted for a landslide in October 74, Thatcher's vote in 83 was expected to go up not down after the Falklands, Neil Kinnock was predicted to enter Number Ten in 1992 ("We're ALLLL right!",) Blair was expected to win a third landslide in 2005, Cameron was expected to win a majority in 2010, Miliband was predicted for a coalition with the SNP in 2015, May was predicted for a landslide in 2017. Predict it often enough and the opposite happens.
Right now everyone is predicting over and over again that Corbyn will win the next election , his followers are asserting it with religious zeal, and -fatally -the Messiah is predicting it himself.
Corbyn and the Corbytrons -beware the self denying prophecy, one of the most powerful forces in politics.
It's possible that a lot of people voted for Corbyn as a protest vote, safe in the knowledge that he "couldn't win", just as they often do in a by-election when they know the result can't affect which party is in government.
I think that the roughly 1.6 million additional voters who turned out mostly voted for Corbyn personally and they had the most impact on the result. most of the other labour politicians could not do that. If you think that he'll be 70 in May 2019 the Tories may be able to 'wait him out' as it were
I think that is only true of the younger voters. A lot of voters voted Labour to stop a Theresa May landslide (as was predicted) and to stop a hard Brexit. A lot of older Tories stayed at home, They wont next time.
It's 'feels' to me that the Labour vote is like a bubble. Lost Corbyn and the bubble deflates (to what extent depends on who replaces him).
So where do Podemos sit in all this. Are they goodies or baddies for this one?
They're namby-pamby middle of the roaders, who believe Catalonia should get more powers, but remain part of Spain.
Which is nevertheless the right answer.
The Indys falling back a bit but still getting a tiny majority, and the government Party being nearly wiped out, is the worst outcome of all. Vindicating no-one. Unless failure all round leads to some calmer heads.
I am not so sure. This result solves nothing, but it does halt the momentum towards separation. A turnout of well over 80% has rejected UDI, which means a constitutional resolution has to be found. It also means the whole issue remains steadfastly an internal matter for Spain from an international perspective. That suits Madrid.
I doubt it. It would suit Madrid if there were any other party in charge but with the PP Government in place I don't see any chance at all of any concessions or even talks on any further powers for Catalonia or a constitutional settlement.
The PP have already overturned the new agreement made between Madrid and Barcelona - having fought it all the way whilst in opposition. I think they will simply continue the way they have done until now.
There is no single separatist party, though. Junts per Catalunya is centre right, ERC is left and CUP is far, far left. They will struggle to work together and are unlikely in the extreme to form a coalition.
They managed to work to
It’s harder to work together now the voters have rejected UDI and backed a constitutional solution. There is no mandate for another illegal referendum, so what do they do?
How about a legal referendum, like we had in Scotland in 2014?
As I understand from previous comments from those who actually know about these things, the process for arranging such a thing in Spain would be more complicated and protracted even could they come to an agreement on it, since presently there is not the constitutional ability to hold one. If there's a will there's a way, but its just one more thing for people to argue about along the way I guess.
Just watched the lady who reported Damian Green Kate Maltby. Complete contrast to Weinstein's PA who was transparently honest. This one strikes me as a publicity seeking phony.
That seems like a partisan observation to me. She seems quite reasonable, she isn't using hyperbolic language, she didn't call for his resignation, and she is probably right to say the whole eposide won't do her any favours. All sounded very credible.
Well done to Puidgemont's lot though I suppose, given the lefty separatists were expected to do better than them. Bragging rights obtained at least I guess.
Puidgy himself has done well to come out as the lead Indy party, but the result isn't a vindication for the separatist strategy, as they hoped. It'll be interesting to see if he carries through on his promise to return to Spain, and how the government handles his arrest and trial.
I'm giving this whole election a big thumbs down - if the leading figures are not shuffling around with bleary eyes and trying to cobble together answers for their own humiliations next to a guy with a bucket on his head at 3am, is it even real democracy?
I'm giving this whole election a big thumbs down - if the leading figures are not shuffling around with bleary eyes and trying to cobble together answers for their own humiliations next to a guy with a bucket on his head at 3am, is it even real democracy?
Of course that kind of thing may be happening regularly in the jails in which several Catalunyan pols are being held.
It's a very good result for the separatists, Jordi Sole, an MEP for Catalonia's ERC party, told BBC World Service's Newshour programme.
"It seems that pro-independence parties have big chances to keep the absolute majority of seats in the Catalan parliament, in the new parliament which in the face of repression, in the face of having candidates in jail and in exile, after all we have been through these last weeks it seems to us a very, very good result," he said.
Just watched the lady who reported Damian Green Kate Maltby. Complete contrast to Weinstein's PA who was transparently honest. This one strikes me as a publicity seeking phony.
That seems like a partisan observation to me. She seems quite reasonable, she isn't using hyperbolic language, she didn't call for his resignation, and she is probably right to say the whole eposide won't do her any favours. All sounded very credible.
It wasn't what she said it was how she said it. She wasn't being truthful. Her motivation was suspect. I'm afraid I've spent too much time in the publicity business to be fooled.
So where do Podemos sit in all this. Are they goodies or baddies for this one?
They're namby-pamby middle of the roaders, who believe Catalonia should get more powers, but remain part of Spain.
Which is nevertheless the right answer.
The Indys falling back a bit but still getting a tiny majority, and the government Party being nearly wiped out, is the worst outcome of all. Vindicating no-one. Unless failure all round leads to some calmer heads.
I am not so sure. This result solves nothing, but it does halt the momentum towards separation. A turnout of well over 80% has rejected UDI, which means a constitutional resolution has to be found. It also means the whole issue remains steadfastly an internal matter for Spain from an international perspective. That suits Madrid.
I doubt it. It would suit Madrid if there were any other party in charge but with the PP Government in place I don't see any chance at all of any concessions or even talks on any further powers for Catalonia or a constitutional settlement.
The PP have already overturned the new agreement made between Madrid and Barcelona - having fought it all the way whilst in opposition. I think they will simply continue the way they have done until now.
There is no single separatist party, though. Junts per Catalunya is centre right, ERC is left and CUP is far, far left. They will struggle to work together and are unlikely in the extreme to form a coalition.
They managed to work together before though, surely, which shows they could do it again? My totally uneducated reading would be that given the main two couldn't agree to form an electoral alliance this time that they probably will struggle to work together moving forward, especially given it is pretty unclear what that move forward could be. And while the UDI may have been rejected as you put it, that record turnout also endorsed the very parties who declared that UDI, so isn't that a mixed message too? What do their voters even want now, given a UDI again is pretty pointless?
It’s harder to work together now the voters have rejected UDI and backed a constitutional solution. There is no mandate for another illegal referendum, so what do they do?
Well, precisely. I suppose while this is not a result which really solves anything, stalemate still serves Madrid more than the separatists, since the union is the status quo.
I'm giving this whole election a big thumbs down - if the leading figures are not shuffling around with bleary eyes and trying to cobble together answers for their own humiliations next to a guy with a bucket on his head at 3am, is it even real democracy?
Just watched the lady who reported Damian Green Kate Maltby. Complete contrast to Weinstein's PA who was transparently honest. This one strikes me as a publicity seeking phony.
That seems like a partisan observation to me. She seems quite reasonable, she isn't using hyperbolic language, she didn't call for his resignation, and she is probably right to say the whole eposide won't do her any favours. All sounded very credible.
It wasn't what she said it was how she said it. She wasn't being truthful. Her motivation was suspect. I'm afraid I've spent too much time in the publicity business to be fooled.
I remember her from her Oxford student days... she wasn't impressive then.
I think our vote was pathetic. It is not for foreign states to tell others what their capital should be, and even less so to tell other powers whether they can recognise that fact.
Can Israel dictate to the Palestinians where their capital should be?
Yes, because they're the occupying power. Which is sort of the problem.
Even more relevantly, whatever the rights or wrongs of our vote, foreign states tell others what their status or is not all the time - some places tell Israel they are not a country at all, though more acknowledge they are. And one poor place that is very clearly a state, is not recognised by anyone, let alone admitting what their capital is. International relations involves making declarations about other places.
There aren’t many UN member states whose existence a significant number of countries refuse to recognise.
I just don’t see how recognising the reality of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which would only change in the event of the state of Israel’s destruction, will make any difference to the ultimate fate of the Palestinians. It’s like Britain only recognising Chinese ‘suzerainty’ over Tibet until 2008.
I don't see how it will make much difference either, but the point was that is is for foreign states to tell others things, or at least they have always done so to some degree, even if it is silly or pointless.
Is this silliness or pointlessness something to be encouraged?
Re Somaliland, a key difference there is that the Somaliland governnent has control over (most) of its nominal territory. The Palestinians have never achieved that.
Do you think there is anyone in the Palestinian leadership who occasionally thinks to themselves: “Shit. We should have taken the state the UN voted to give us all those decades ago.”
Sigh. Why that issue bothered some people so much I'll never know. Surprised the news is being consigned to pre-Xmas dumping ground. The coat of arms does not show up particularly well against that blue.
Clearly Catalonia will have to keep holding elections until they come out with the right result.
As I wrote for PB in what turns out to have been a remarkably prescient article, the quickest way to solve the Catalan question would be for PP to lose power in Madrid:
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Doesn't sound like it'll be mandatory, and that existing ones will remain valid until their expiry date.
Clearly Catalonia will have to keep holding elections until they come out with the right result.
As I wrote for PB in what turns out to have been a remarkably prescient article, the quickest way to solve the Catalan question would be for PP to lose power in Madrid:
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Doesn't sound like it'll be mandatory, and that existing ones will remain valid until their expiry date.
Having EU UK passports in circulation will be confusing. Govt won't miss a trick to make a few quid.
I think our vote was pathetic. It is not for foreign states to tell others what their capital should be, and even less so to tell other powers whether they can recognise that fact.
Can Israel dictate to the Palestinians where their capital should be?
Yes, because they're the occupying power. Which is sort of the problem.
Even more relevantly, whatever the rights or wrongs of our vote, foreign states tell others what their status or is not all the time - some places tell Israel they are not a country at all, though more acknowledge they are. And one poor place that is very clearly a state, is not recognised by anyone, let alone admitting what their capital is. International relations involves making declarations about other places.
There aren’t many UN member states whose existence a significant number of countries refuse to recognise.
I just don’t see how recognising the reality of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which would only change in the event of the state of Israel’s destruction, will make any difference to the ultimate fate of the Palestinians. It’s like Britain only recognising Chinese ‘suzerainty’ over Tibet until 2008.
I don't see how it will make much difference either, but the point was that is is for foreign states to tell others things, or at least they have always done so to some degree, even if it is silly or pointless.
Is this silliness or pointlessness something to be encouraged?
Re Somaliland, a key difference there is that the Somaliland governnent has control over (most) of its nominal territory. The Palestinians have never achieved that.
Do you think there is anyone in the Palestinian leadership who occasionally thinks to themselves: “Shit. We should have taken the state the UN voted to give us all those decades ago.”
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Doesn't sound like it'll be mandatory, and that existing ones will remain valid until their expiry date.
Having EU UK passports in circulation will be confusing. Govt won't miss a trick to make a few quid.
I don't see why. Border guards are more interested in the biographical page.
Edit: They were still issuing blue ones as late as 1993, five years after the changeover!
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Sort of my point. I’m stuck with a red one unless I cough up another £72.
Actually I’ll stick with it till it’s renewed naturally, but I always ( low level) resented having that red one imposed on me. These things niggle with people, they just do.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
It seems that people are allowed to renew prematurely if they want a blue one. Fortunately my passport expires in time for me to get a 10 year Burgundy one.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Sort of my point. I’m stuck with a red one unless I cough up another £72.
Actually I’ll stick with it till it’s renewed naturally, but I always ( low level) resented having that red one imposed on me. These things niggle with people, they just do.
Red was never imposed. It was a UK choice. Other EU countries have different colours.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
It seems that people are allowed to renew prematurely if they want a blue one. Fortunately my passport ecpires in time for me to get a 10 year Burgundy one.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
It seems that people are allowed to renew prematurely if they want a blue one. Fortunately my passport ecpires in time for me to get a 10 year Burgundy one.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Doesn't sound like it'll be mandatory, and that existing ones will remain valid until their expiry date.
Having EU UK passports in circulation will be confusing. Govt won't miss a trick to make a few quid.
Why?? It worked seamlessly from 1988-98 as we switched the other way.
Sigh. Why that issue bothered some people so much I'll never know. Surprised the news is being consigned to pre-Xmas dumping ground. The coat of arms does not show up particularly well against that blue.
Doubtless to my generation the blue will end up being this blasted modernnewfangle passport and we will moan about it when older. Getting a head start - To me the Burgundy red feels more regal.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Sort of my point. I’m stuck with a red one unless I cough up another £72.
Actually I’ll stick with it till it’s renewed naturally, but I always ( low level) resented having that red one imposed on me. These things niggle with people, they just do.
Red was never imposed. It was a UK choice. Other EU countries have different colours.
That's the dumbest take I've read today and I've been reading apologia for Apple secretly slowing down people's phones so that's saying something.
This election was billed as a referendum. If you think anything other than separation was at issue then you are probably best off sticking with the iPhones.
Clearly Catalonia will have to keep holding elections until they come out with the right result.
As I wrote for PB in what turns out to have been a remarkably prescient article, the quickest way to solve the Catalan question would be for PP to lose power in Madrid:
Which on present polling they won't. Indeed if the narrow separatist majority in Catalonia leads to further pushes for independence the rest of Spain may well continue to rally around the PP to maintain national unity
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Doesn't sound like it'll be mandatory, and that existing ones will remain valid until their expiry date.
Having EU UK passports in circulation will be confusing. Govt won't miss a trick to make a few quid.
Why?? It worked seamlessly from 1988-98 as we switched the other way.
The Red passport promises the bearer greater rights than the blue.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Sort of my point. I’m stuck with a red one unless I cough up another £72.
Actually I’ll stick with it till it’s renewed naturally, but I always ( low level) resented having that red one imposed on me. These things niggle with people, they just do.
Red was never imposed. It was a UK choice. Other EU countries have different colours.
Well it was a crap choice. Pure and simple.
Exactly the sort of low level admin thing that fed into the view that “Europe” was done to us, not something we participated in. Uniformity on the way to “ever closer union” for the sheer sake of it.
I think our vote was pathetic. It is not for foreign states to tell others what their capital should be, and even less so to tell other powers whether they can recognise that fact.
Can Israel dictate to the Palestinians where their capital should be?
Yes, because they're the occupying power. Which is sort of the problem.
Even more relevantly, whatever the rights or wrongs of our vote, foreign states tell others what their status or is not all the time - some places tell Israel they are not a country at all, though more acknowledge they are. And one poor place that is very clearly a state, is not recognised by anyone, let alone admitting what their capital is. International relations involves making declarations about other places.
There aren’t many UN member states whose existence a significant number of countries refuse to recognise.
I just don’t see how recognising the reality of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which would only change in the event of the state of Israel’s destruction, will make any difference to the ultimate fate of the Palestinians. It’s like Britain only recognising Chinese ‘suzerainty’ over Tibet until 2008.
I don't see how it will make much difference either, but the point was that is is for foreign states to tell others things, or at least they have always done so to some degree, even if it is silly or pointless.
Is this silliness or pointlessness something to be encouraged?
Re Somaliland, a key difference there is that the Somaliland governnent has control over (most) of its nominal territory. The Palestinians have never achieved that.
Do you think there is anyone in the Palestinian leadership who occasionally thinks to themselves: “Shit. We should have taken the state the UN voted to give us all those decades ago.”
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Doesn't sound like it'll be mandatory, and that existing ones will remain valid until their expiry date.
Having EU UK passports in circulation will be confusing. Govt won't miss a trick to make a few quid.
Why?? It worked seamlessly from 1988-98 as we switched the other way.
The Red passport promises the bearer greater rights than the blue.
Does it? Last time I checked mine it didn't say anything about my right to freedom of movement etc.
Clearly Catalonia will have to keep holding elections until they come out with the right result.
As I wrote for PB in what turns out to have been a remarkably prescient article, the quickest way to solve the Catalan question would be for PP to lose power in Madrid:
Which on present polling they won't. Indeed if the narrow separatist majority in Catalonia leads to further pushes for independence the rest of Spain may well continue to rally around the PP to maintain national unity
There has been no rallying - PP has lost support consistently across all polls since the Catalan crisis began. It has lost substantial support since the last election. It will certainly lose its current blocking majority in the Spanish senate that up to now has prevented serious discussion about constitutional reform.
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Doesn't sound like it'll be mandatory, and that existing ones will remain valid until their expiry date.
Having EU UK passports in circulation will be confusing. Govt won't miss a trick to make a few quid.
Why?? It worked seamlessly from 1988-98 as we switched the other way.
The Red passport promises the bearer greater rights than the blue.
Can you imagine what being in IDS's brain must be iike
That's what many are hoping, but I don't see much evidence for it being true, even though it could be. Some may have stayed home because they thought Corbyn a loser, but now he looks like someone who could actually win and his internal critics lie at his feet, and maybe they will turn out as a result.
I don't see it either. If anything, Labour's polling has increased since the election, showing that Corbynism is more than a protest vote.
Yes, I met anti-Tory voters in Broxtowe who thought Soubry was a sure thing so they might as well vote LibDen or Green. I think VI is broadly unchanged since the election, but the underlying secondaries are better for Labour now - people have got used to the idea that Corbyn might be PM and it wouldn't be the end of the world, and the Government, leaving aside Brexit and Gove, just seems utterly exhausted.
I think our vote was pathetic. It is not for foreign states to tell others what their capital should be, and even less so to tell other powers whether they can recognise that fact.
Can Israel dictate to the Palestinians where their capital should be?
Yes, because they're the occupying power. Which is sort of the problem.
Even more relevantly, whatever the rights or wrongs of our vote, foreign states tell others what their status or is not all the time - some places tell Israel they are not a country at all, though more acknowledge they are. And one poor place that is very clearly a state, is not recognised by anyone, let alone admitting what their capital is. International relations involves making declarations about other places.
There aren’t many UN member states whose existence a significant number of countries refuse to recognise.
I just don’t see how recognising the reality of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which would only change in the event of the state of Israel’s destruction, will make any difference to the ultimate fate of the Palestinians. It’s like Britain only recognising Chinese ‘suzerainty’ over Tibet until 2008.
I don't see how it will make much difference either, but the point was that is is for foreign states to tell others things, or at least they have always done so to some degree, even if it is silly or pointless.
Is this silliness or pointlessness something to be encouraged?
Re Somaliland, a key difference there is that the Somaliland governnent has control over (most) of its nominal territory. The Palestinians have never achieved that.
Do you think there is anyone in the Palestinian leadership who occasionally thinks to themselves: “Shit. We should have taken the state the UN voted to give us all those decades ago.”
Why exactly? It’s not the most important thing in the world for sure, but I always objected to having Euro flags stuck on things like driving licences apparently without any real reason other than ( I assume) trying to force a “European” ethos by stealth upon us.
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Don't worry you'll probably be forced to pay for a blue one in a couple of years.
Doesn't sound like it'll be mandatory, and that existing ones will remain valid until their expiry date.
Having EU UK passports in circulation will be confusing. Govt won't miss a trick to make a few quid.
Why?? It worked seamlessly from 1988-98 as we switched the other way.
The Red passport promises the bearer greater rights than the blue.
Can you imagine what being in IDS's brain must be iike
Suspicious package reported in the Royal Opera House this evening causing an evacuation and cordons in the area. Found not to be anything to worry about. Whole incident handled and resolved in a little over an hour.
Actually I’ll stick with it till it’s renewed naturally, but I always ( low level) resented having that red one imposed on me. These things niggle with people, they just do.
It will niggle with a whole generation that their burgundy passports were taken away.
I think our vote was pathetic. It is not for foreign states to tell others what their capital should be, and even less so to tell other powers whether they can recognise that fact.
Can Israel dictate to the Palestinians where their capital should be?
Yes, because they're the occupying power. Which is sort of the problem.
Even more relevantly, whatever the rights or wrongs of our vote, foreign states tell others what their status or is not all the time - some places tell Israel they are not a country at all, though more acknowledge they are. And one poor place that is very clearly a state, is not recognised by anyone, let alone admitting what their capital is. International relations involves making declarations about other places.
There aren’t many UN member states whose existence a significant number of countries refuse to recognise.
I just don’t see how recognising the reality of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which would only change in the event of the state of Israel’s destruction, will make any difference to the ultimate fate of the Palestinians. It’s like Britain only recognising Chinese ‘suzerainty’ over Tibet until 2008.
I don't see how it will make much difference either, but the point was that is is for foreign states to tell others things, or at least they have always done so to some degree, even if it is silly or pointless.
Is this silliness or pointlessness something to be encouraged?
Re Somaliland, a key difference there is that the Somaliland governnent has control over (most) of its nominal territory. The Palestinians have never achieved that.
Do you think there is anyone in the Palestinian leadership who occasionally thinks to themselves: “Shit. We should have taken the state the UN voted to give us all those decades ago.”
No because it wasn't a sustainable state.
What made it unsustainable? Did the UN deliberately create an unsustainable state? Seems an odd thing to do.
Its a classic example of the self denying prophecy in politics: predict something will happen often enough and people vote to make the opposite happen. Churchill was predicted to win in 1945, Attlee in 1951, Wilson was predicted for a landslide in 64, Wilson was predicted for a third term in 1970, when Heath asked "who governs Britain in February, everybody predicted the voters would reply "you". Wilson was predicted for a landslide in October 74, Thatcher's vote in 83 was expected to go up not down after the Falklands, Neil Kinnock was predicted to enter Number Ten in 1992 ("We're ALLLL right!",) Blair was expected to win a third landslide in 2005, Cameron was expected to win a majority in 2010, Miliband was predicted for a coalition with the SNP in 2015, May was predicted for a landslide in 2017. Predict it often enough and the opposite happens.
Right now everyone is predicting over and over again that Corbyn will win the next election , his followers are asserting it with religious zeal, and -fatally -the Messiah is predicting it himself.
Corbyn and the Corbytrons -beware the self denying prophecy, one of the most powerful forces in politics.
I don't think Wilson was predicted a landslide in 1964 or October 1974, Thatcher indeed won a landslide in 1983 and all the polls in 2005 predicted Labour's lead well down on 2001 and in 2010 most final polls correctly predicted a hung parliament even if the got 2015 and 2017 wrong.
I think our vote was pathetic. It is not for foreign states to tell others what their capital should be, and even less so to tell other powers whether they can recognise that fact.
Can Israel dictate to the Palestinians where their capital should be?
Yes, because they're the occupying power. Which is sort of the problem.
Even more relevantly, whatever the rights or wrongs of our vote, foreign states tell others what their status or is not all the time - some places tell Israel they are not a country at all, though more acknowledge they are. And one poor place that is very clearly a state, is not recognised by anyone, let alone admitting what their capital is. International relations involves making declarations about other places.
There aren’t many UN member states whose existence a significant number of countries refuse to recognise.
I just don’t see how recognising the reality of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which would only change in the event of the state of Israel’s destruction, will make any difference to the ultimate fate of the Palestinians. It’s like Britain only recognising Chinese ‘suzerainty’ over Tibet until 2008.
I don't see how it will make much difference either, but the point was that is is for foreign states to tell others things, or at least they have always done so to some degree, even if it is silly or pointless.
Is this silliness or pointlessness something to be encouraged?
Re Somaliland, a key difference there is that the Somaliland governnent has control over (most) of its nominal territory. The Palestinians have never achieved that.
Do you think there is anyone in the Palestinian leadership who occasionally thinks to themselves: “Shit. We should have taken the state the UN voted to give us all those decades ago.”
In hindsight, yes they should have. Was 45% of the area of Mandate Palestine, with Jerusalem as neutral territory.
Nick: this attitude is partly why Leave won. Yes it’s theatre, yes it doesn’t really really matter, in a shelter, food, clothing, warmth sense. But yet it matters.
Actually I’ll stick with it till it’s renewed naturally, but I always ( low level) resented having that red one imposed on me. These things niggle with people, they just do.
It will niggle with a whole generation that their burgundy passports were taken away.
Look, the switch cannot simultaneously be derided as stupid and unimportant, and yet the same tendency in reverse significant.
Actually I’ll stick with it till it’s renewed naturally, but I always ( low level) resented having that red one imposed on me. These things niggle with people, they just do.
It will niggle with a whole generation that their burgundy passports were taken away.
Look, the switch cannot simultaneously be derided as stupid and unimportant, and yet the same tendency in reverse significant.
Personally I prefer the burgundy, as colours go.
What happened to "no strong feelings one way or the other"?
Comments
"It seems that pro-independence parties have big chances to keep the absolute majority of seats in the Catalan parliament, in the new parliament which in the face of repression, in the face of having candidates in jail and in exile, after all we have been through these last weeks it seems to us a very, very good result," he said.
Sounds like a Burgundy one without the EU bit at the top might be a bit of a collectors item!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-42420389/harvey-weinstein-s-former-personal-assistant-zelda-perkins-speaks-to-bbc
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/11/06/spains-government-largely-created-the-catalan-crisis-and-may-not-be-able-to-end-it/
Buggeration is I just renewed mine two weeks ago!
Presumably the immediate issue is whether the three separatist parties are going to be able to agree on a coalition and a President.
Edit: They were still issuing blue ones as late as 1993, five years after the changeover!
Actually I’ll stick with it till it’s renewed naturally, but I always ( low level) resented having that red one imposed on me. These things niggle with people, they just do.
I agree it's quite surprising.
Getting a head start - To me the Burgundy red feels more regal.
Exactly the sort of low level admin thing that fed into the view that “Europe” was done to us, not something we participated in. Uniformity on the way to “ever closer union” for the sheer sake of it.
I don’t get what was so iconic about the old passports.
West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the area.
Personally I prefer the burgundy, as colours go.
What happened to "no strong feelings one way or the other"?