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Bloody best Christmas supermarket offer I've heard of !!AndyJS said:"Iceland to write €24,000 off every household mortgage":
http://www.thejournal.ie/iceland-goes-against-international-concern-writes-off-debt-1203320-Dec2013/?utm_source=shortlink
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Compouter says no!compouter1 said:
ARF!!!AveryLP said:
Can we have Compouter seized for propagating a polling joke?compouter1 said:"Yougov had CON lead down to 5%." My god, the PB Hodges would have been euphoric.
In other news another poll showing Labour in the 40's.
Swingback, swingback, my kingdom for my swingback.
Tic Toc.
The DNS swab might indicate a direct connection to Ash.0 -
Was there at least some implicit racism in all that posturing?
To understand the left's critique you have to factor in their driving force - utter and complete hatred of middle England, and the wish to destroy it completely.
Any regime, force, or movement that tilts against the English middle class is by default ok with the left - no matter what its crimes at home or elsewhere.
That's why radical islam is OK, that's why the IRA was OK, that's why Chavez is OK, that's why stalinism is OK, that's why Cuba is OK.
Racist SA should have realised that it merely needed to start planting a few bombs in the shires in order to get the left off its back.
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Nothing more socialist than the herditary principle! Monarchy = socialist, and rightly so!JackW said:Hilary Benn now speaking, is certainly his fathers son - The voice, tone, accent, very slight lisp and style together with his hand gestures.
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He tweeted about 20 hours ago from the St Pancras Renaissance hotel:Morris_Dancer said:Has anyone seen SeanT lately?
After reading of the unfunny joke fellow being arrested I fear for his non-blog about Mandela Mr. T might've been tried in a secret court and presently be languishing for an indeterminate period in a jail cell in an unspecified location.
Hmm. I did mean this to be amusing, but it's probably not far enough away from reality. That's a bit depressing.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox0 -
For a minute (just a minute!) I hought that was Iceland the supermarketAndyJS said:"Iceland to write €24,000 off every household mortgage":
http://www.thejournal.ie/iceland-goes-against-international-concern-writes-off-debt-1203320-Dec2013/?utm_source=shortlink 0 -
I fink yor komputta kneeds a spel czechSunil_Prasannan said:
Compouter says no!compouter1 said:
ARF!!!AveryLP said:
Can we have Compouter seized for propagating a polling joke?compouter1 said:"Yougov had CON lead down to 5%." My god, the PB Hodges would have been euphoric.
In other news another poll showing Labour in the 40's.
Swingback, swingback, my kingdom for my swingback.
Tic Toc.
The DNS swab might indicate a direct connection to Ash.
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Yes. I would still have found them morally repugnant and frankly irrational but by no means the worst on this benighted planet of ours. Murdering governments are 10 a penny and Mandala was fortunate in his opponent.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course there were episodes of unjustifiable and inexcusable violence and brutality by SA police, I don't dispute that for a second. But the regime were not systematic murderers or torturers. Mandala himself was living proof of that.
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Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.0 -
Would you feel the same way if SA had been a black minority regime denying the right to vote to a white majority?taffys said:Was there at least some implicit racism in all that posturing?
To understand the left's critique you have to factor in their driving force - utter and complete hatred of middle England, and the wish to destroy it completely.
Any regime, force, or movement that tilts against the English middle class is by default ok with the left - no matter what its crimes at home or elsewhere.
That's why radical islam is OK, that's why the IRA was OK, that's why Chavez is OK, that's why stalinism is OK, that's why Cuba is OK.
Racist SA should have realised that it merely needed to start planting a few bombs in the shires in order to get the left off its back.0 -
Life for the majority of black Africans in South Africa under apartheid was probably far better than it was in most other African countries, but we mustn't say this because we might get lynched.0
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Completely agree Jack. Most of the regimes I mentioned in my original post were probably rightest in nature although many claimed to be socialist.JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
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So, you are predicting Cleggasm II ? The Return of the Cleggasm ? Multiple Cleggasms ?MarkSenior said:
No , of course I am not happy with retaining just 30% of 2010 Lib Dem voters , nor was I happy in early 2009 when ICM polls were showing us retaining only 50 to 55% of 2005 Lib Dem voters but things did change .Stuart_Dickson said:
Are you happy that your party are retaining just 30% of the people who voted for it in 2010 Mark?MarkSenior said:
The correct figure for 2010 Lib Dems as per Table 2 isStuart_Dickson said:Usual caveats, blah, blah, blah.
2010 Lib Dems:
Lab 38%
LD 37%
Con 9%
Grn 7%
UKIP 5%
SNP 1%
Gender split:
Female: 44% Lab 30% Con
Male: 38% Lab 36% Con
Scottish split:
Lab 34%
SNP 32%
Con 16%
LD 8%
UKIP 6%
Grn 3%
http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Online_VI_09-12-2013_BPC.pdf
Lab 29%
LD 30%
Con 8%
UKIP 4%
SNP 1%
Green 6%
Others 1%
DK/WNV 21%
(By the way, your figures are no more "correct" or "incorrect" than my figures. You are just reporting different parameters.)0 -
@DavidL - there was a degree of rule of law in South Africa, but plenty of people disappeared and/or were killed without due process; while plenty of killers went unpunished despite the evidence compiled against them.
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How do you know?AndyJS said:Life for the majority of black Africans in South Africa under apartheid was probably far better than it was in most other African countries, .
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Millsy said:
Tom Clark @guardian_clark 2m
Did Autumn statement do Dave & George any good? Guardian/ICM poll later ...
Is it too obvious?
Sounds like no change..0 -
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.0 -
Oh for gawd sake Patrick.Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
I ate a mars bar over the weekend. I doubt it was exported from the fourth planet from the sun which in turn doesn't publish a page 3 on it's mighty warm surface !!
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And racism is not the preserve of white minorities over black majorities. The Rwandan genocide was fuelled out of ethnic hatred, Mugabe's thugs in Zimbabwe made life hell for, and murdered white farmers (The ethnic minority) and the conflict in Sri Lanka was an underlying Tamil-Sinhalese one.JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Of course evil is not just about racism, Pol Pot & Chairman Mao murdered people just because they were a lawyer, doctor or teacher for a warped political ideology which is every bit as bad.
As JackW says evil is not within the political spectrum.0 -
Milord! I was replying to our good friend "Compouter1"!JackW said:
I fink yor komputta kneeds a spel czechSunil_Prasannan said:
Compouter says no!compouter1 said:
ARF!!!AveryLP said:
Can we have Compouter seized for propagating a polling joke?compouter1 said:"Yougov had CON lead down to 5%." My god, the PB Hodges would have been euphoric.
In other news another poll showing Labour in the 40's.
Swingback, swingback, my kingdom for my swingback.
Tic Toc.
The DNS swab might indicate a direct connection to Ash.
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South Africa did have a pretty honest judiciary, some of whom did stand up to the government.richardDodd said:I can imagine the Yanks told our two terrorist pals exactly what real life will be like in a 6x 8 cell for 25 years, that tends to sharpen the mind.
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No-one will lynch you, but you may be accused of seeking to justify apartheid.AndyJS said:Life for the majority of black Africans in South Africa under apartheid was probably far better than it was in most other African countries, but we mustn't say this because we might get lynched.
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More like petite mort..Stuart_Dickson said:
So, you are predicting Cleggasm II ? The Return of the Cleggasm ? Multiple Cleggasms ?
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''Would you feel the same way if SA had been a black minority regime denying the right to vote to a white majority?
I didn't 'feel' any way, and I still don't. ''
I am just trying to explain why the left's critique of obnoxious regimes in the 1960s/1970s and 1980s wasn't consistent.
The left's critique of the communist east at that time was non-existent, despite a torrent of human rights abuses, and yet they threw everything at SA.
What's the reason for that? Soviet Russia was a bastion against middle class England (and America) and so all was forgiven.
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Perhaps, if by 'left' you mean the Revolutionary Communist Party? Though to be fair to the RCP, I don't think they were that keen on Stalin.taffys said:Was there at least some implicit racism in all that posturing?
To understand the left's critique you have to factor in their driving force - utter and complete hatred of middle England, and the wish to destroy it completely.
Any regime, force, or movement that tilts against the English middle class is by default ok with the left - no matter what its crimes at home or elsewhere.
That's why radical islam is OK, that's why the IRA was OK, that's why Chavez is OK, that's why stalinism is OK, that's why Cuba is OK.
Racist SA should have realised that it merely needed to start planting a few bombs in the shires in order to get the left off its back.0 -
And Kim Jong-un is the president of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
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Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.0 -
Though to be fair to the RCP, I don't think they were that keen on Stalin.
Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, even when Kinnock was trying to rid labour of militant, there was never a peep against the communist east.
And yet if I'm correct there was a 24 hour left dominated protest outside the SA embassy.
What's the reason for the discrepancy in the energy of the critique of these obnoxious regimes?0 -
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
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Damn, I'd definitely vote for someone if they came up with that policy here !JackW said:
Bloody best Christmas supermarket offer I've heard of !!AndyJS said:"Iceland to write €24,000 off every household mortgage":
http://www.thejournal.ie/iceland-goes-against-international-concern-writes-off-debt-1203320-Dec2013/?utm_source=shortlink
OK so a holiday would probably be a bit more expensive after the pound collapsed 50%, but it would be great news for me
! 0 -
Plenty? Some certainly. Steve Biko was probably one. And it was so notable that many songs were written about it. Can you name any of the victims of Stalin (apart from Trotsky) or Castro or Amin or Mao?SouthamObserver said:@DavidL - there was a degree of rule of law in South Africa, but plenty of people disappeared and/or were killed without due process; while plenty of killers went unpunished despite the evidence compiled against them.
There is something weird about the moral relativism of all this.
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What marvellous free market policies did he have then ? None. So not right wing in any way shape or form.Sean_F said:
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
He was economically and ideologically to the left with a dose of non aligned anti semitism and warmongering on top.
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You mean they were Liberal Democrats ???????!!!!!!!!Sean_F said:
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.0 -
Was wondering where the name rang a bell - then i remembered , it is the watering hole for Manchester UniversityDavidL said:
Plenty? Some certainly. Steve Biko was probably one. And it was so notable that many songs were written about it. Can you name any of the victims of Stalin (apart from Trotsky) or Castro or Amin or Mao?SouthamObserver said:@DavidL - there was a degree of rule of law in South Africa, but plenty of people disappeared and/or were killed without due process; while plenty of killers went unpunished despite the evidence compiled against them.
There is something weird about the moral relativism of all this.
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LOL!Alanbrooke said:
You mean they were Liberal Democrats ???????!!!!!!!!Sean_F said:
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.0 -
The Communist east was already reforming under Gorbachev by the mid 1980s. Remember when Maggie said he was a man "we can do business with"?taffys said:Though to be fair to the RCP, I don't think they were that keen on Stalin.
Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, even when Kinnock was trying to rid labour of militant, there was never a peep against the communist east.
And yet if I'm correct there was a 24 hour left dominated protest outside the SA embassy.
What's the reason for the discrepancy in the energy of the critique of these obnoxious regimes?0 -
LOLPulpstar said:
Was wondering where the name rang a bell - then i remembered , it is the watering hole for Manchester UniversityDavidL said:
Plenty? Some certainly. Steve Biko was probably one. And it was so notable that many songs were written about it. Can you name any of the victims of Stalin (apart from Trotsky) or Castro or Amin or Mao?SouthamObserver said:@DavidL - there was a degree of rule of law in South Africa, but plenty of people disappeared and/or were killed without due process; while plenty of killers went unpunished despite the evidence compiled against them.
There is something weird about the moral relativism of all this.
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Actually if you look at Mugabe, he is very careful to rail against white middle class 'colonial' Britain as much as he can. It's strange given most people in his country have never met,or seen Englishmen, and probably have zero idea of what he's talking about.
So why does Bob do it? easy. The British left will think a man who hates middle class white Englishmen with a vengeance can't be all bad.
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There is something weird in you seeking to imply that I am somehow an apologist for Amin, Mao and Stalin because I dare to disagree with you about the degree to which the rule of law was applied in apartheid South Africa. Very, very weird.DavidL said:
Plenty? Some certainly. Steve Biko was probably one. And it was so notable that many songs were written about it. Can you name any of the victims of Stalin (apart from Trotsky) or Castro or Amin or Mao?SouthamObserver said:@DavidL - there was a degree of rule of law in South Africa, but plenty of people disappeared and/or were killed without due process; while plenty of killers went unpunished despite the evidence compiled against them.
There is something weird about the moral relativism of all this.
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Sounds like a curry loving leader a bit closer to home..taffys said:Actually if you look at Mugabe, he is very careful to rail against white middle class 'colonial' Britain as much as he can. It's strange given most people in his country have never met,or Englishmen, and never will.
So why does he do it? easy. The British left will think a man who hates middle class white Englishmen with a vengeance can't be all bad.0 -
If only they had been available to go into coalition with him and restrain all those slightly undesirable aspects of his policy. Things would have been so much better.Alanbrooke said:
You mean they were Liberal Democrats ???????!!!!!!!!Sean_F said:
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
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Peter Tatchell ?taffys said:Actually if you look at Mugabe, he is very careful to rail against white middle class 'colonial' Britain as much as he can. It's strange given most people in his country have never met,or seen Englishmen, and probably have zero idea of what he's talking about.
So why does Bob do it? easy. The British left will think a man who hates middle class white Englishmen with a vengeance can't be all bad.0 -
I think if you compare life expectancy of black South Africans under apartheid to life expectancy of black Africans in other African countries, the South African figures would come out very favourably. But presumably some would argue that it was better to die at the age of 25 in a theoretically free country like Congo or Guinea.0
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These guys must be raving lefties then..TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
http://tinyurl.com/lcd39es
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The latest Guardian/ICM poll shows the Conservatives closing the gap on Labour to just five percentage points. The Tories are on 32% – an advance of two points from November. Labour falls back one point to 37%, and the Liberal Democrats also sink by a point, to stand at 12%. Ukip is on 9%.
Most Britons have felt no benefits from economic recovery, opinion poll finds
Tories close gap on Labour by two points, despite 70% of voters polled by ICM/Guardian saying they have not seen any gains
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/09/no-gains-economic-recovery-tories-cut-labour-lead-icm-guardian-poll0 -
He is the exception that proves the rule perhaps ? 0
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I seriously wasn't SO. Apologies if you took it that way.SouthamObserver said:
There is something weird in you seeking to imply that I am somehow an apologist for Amin, Mao and Stalin because I dare to disagree with you about the degree to which the rule of law was applied in apartheid South Africa. Very, very weird.DavidL said:
Plenty? Some certainly. Steve Biko was probably one. And it was so notable that many songs were written about it. Can you name any of the victims of Stalin (apart from Trotsky) or Castro or Amin or Mao?SouthamObserver said:@DavidL - there was a degree of rule of law in South Africa, but plenty of people disappeared and/or were killed without due process; while plenty of killers went unpunished despite the evidence compiled against them.
There is something weird about the moral relativism of all this.
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Wokingham LDs have selected Clive Jones for GE2015:
http://westberkslibdems.org.uk/en/article/2013/751155/liberal-democrats-select-their-prospective-parliamentary-candidate-for-wokingham?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter0 -
So that's
Con 32 (+2)
Lab 37 (-1)
LD 12 (-1)
UKIP 9 (-1)0 -
Figures, man! Figures!AndyJS said:I think if you compare life expectancy of black South Africans under apartheid to life expectancy of black Africans in other African countries, the South African figures would come out very favourably. But presumably some would argue that it was better to die at the age of 25 in a theoretically free country like Congo or Guinea.
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With the recovery appearing to gather pace, David Cameron and Osborne retain their solid lead over Ed Miliband and the shadow chancellor, Ed Balls, as the team most trusted to manage the economy properly, with 39% backing the Tory pair to handle the economy, compared with just 23% who side with Labour's two Eds.0
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In addition to the above, they suppressed the trade unions, and gave employers almost unfettered powers over their workforces. They were fervently anti-communist, and reinstated capital punishment. They sent the "asocial" to concentration camps. These would all have been considered right wing policies at the time.TGOHF said:
What marvellous free market policies did he have then ? None. So not right wing in any way shape or form.Sean_F said:
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
He was economically and ideologically to the left with a dose of non aligned anti semitism and warmongering on top.
Their hostility towards the Catholic Church aligns them with much of the European left at the time. Their enthusiasm for eugenics could be found on both right and left at the time.
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The most obvious reason for Mandela not having suffered the fate of Steve Biko is that his case became an international cause-celebre. So, in short the Anti-Apartheid movement can justly claim credit for having saved his life.DavidL said:
Plenty? Some certainly. Steve Biko was probably one. And it was so notable that many songs were written about it. Can you name any of the victims of Stalin (apart from Trotsky) or Castro or Amin or Mao?SouthamObserver said:@DavidL - there was a degree of rule of law in South Africa, but plenty of people disappeared and/or were killed without due process; while plenty of killers went unpunished despite the evidence compiled against them.
There is something weird about the moral relativism of all this.0 -
ICM/The Sunil on Sunday Monday:TheScreamingEagles said:The latest Guardian/ICM poll shows the Conservatives closing the gap on Labour to just five percentage points. The Tories are on 32% – an advance of two points from November. Labour falls back one point to 37%, and the Liberal Democrats also sink by a point, to stand at 12%. Ukip is on 9%.
Most Britons have felt no benefits from economic recovery, opinion poll finds
Tories close gap on Labour by two points, despite 70% of voters polled by ICM/Guardian saying they have not seen any gains
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/09/no-gains-economic-recovery-tories-cut-labour-lead-icm-guardian-poll
Progressives 49%
Assorted fruitcakes/loonies 41%0 -
They also oversaw the privatisation of many banks and businesses:Sean_F said:
In addition to the above, they suppressed the trade unions, and gave employers almost unfettered powers over their workforces. They were fervently anti-communist, and reinstated capital punishment. They sent the "asocial" to concentration camps. These would all have been considered right wing policies at the time.TGOHF said:
What marvellous free market policies did he have then ? None. So not right wing in any way shape or form.Sean_F said:
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
He was economically and ideologically to the left with a dose of non aligned anti semitism and warmongering on top.
Their hostility towards the Catholic Church aligns them with much of the European left at the time. Their enthusiasm for eugenics could be found on both right and left at the time.
http://www.ub.edu/graap/EHR.pdf
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ICM
Populus
YouGov
All MOE
Nothing happening out there. Nada.0 -
Labour's support for SMEs - cupcakes, bloody cupcakes.
http://www.labour.org.uk/today-the-whole-country-stands-with-small-businesses-like-mine
Where is the aspiration, where is the vision, where is the future in bloody cakes? Nothing like supporting new adaptive manufacturing techniques or 3D printing. Is this really the best example Labour can use.0 -
Ahhh. Hitler was a lefty, apartheid wasn't THAT bad, and of course the left support Islamic terrorism.
It's Readings From The Big Book of Cliched Rightwing Stupidity hour on PB.0 -
Remember when Maggie said he was a man "we can do business with"?
You have a point, but its not like SA was last man standing in the obnoxious regime stakes. And yet for the left the nasty SA regime was the only nasty man ever in the game.
I think this is what genuinely shocked Maggie when she defied all those calls to stop trading with SA.
Maggie realised that, as far as the left and obnoxious regimes were concerned, SA was the only game in town.
And the reason is that all the others were ranged against middle Britain.
0 -
Oh dear - file another one under "always wrong"..
"The poll also asked voters whether they were worried that the emerging recovery was based on an unsustainable new property boom. Overall, voters dismissed this concern – which has been raised by the business secretary, Vince Cable, among others – by 49% to 34%. Even in the south, where housing is so costly, 45% disagree with the suggestion that growth is fuelled by a property bubble, and only 35% agree."0 -
Cheers!DavidL said:
I seriously wasn't SO. Apologies if you took it that way.SouthamObserver said:
There is something weird in you seeking to imply that I am somehow an apologist for Amin, Mao and Stalin because I dare to disagree with you about the degree to which the rule of law was applied in apartheid South Africa. Very, very weird.DavidL said:
Plenty? Some certainly. Steve Biko was probably one. And it was so notable that many songs were written about it. Can you name any of the victims of Stalin (apart from Trotsky) or Castro or Amin or Mao?SouthamObserver said:@DavidL - there was a degree of rule of law in South Africa, but plenty of people disappeared and/or were killed without due process; while plenty of killers went unpunished despite the evidence compiled against them.
There is something weird about the moral relativism of all this.
0 -
Nothing much will happen before next year.Bobajob said:ICM
Populus
YouGov
All MOE
Nothing happening out there. Nada.0 -
Didn't that Hitler fellow have the odd rumble with the German communists in the 1930's and have an almighty punch-up with Stalin from 1941 onward ?!?Sean_F said:
In addition to the above, they suppressed the trade unions, and gave employers almost unfettered powers over their workforces. They were fervently anti-communist, and reinstated capital punishment. They sent the "asocial" to concentration camps. These would all have been considered right wing policies at the time.TGOHF said:
What marvellous free market policies did he have then ? None. So not right wing in any way shape or form.Sean_F said:
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
He was economically and ideologically to the left with a dose of non aligned anti semitism and warmongering on top.
Their hostility towards the Catholic Church aligns them with much of the European left at the time. Their enthusiasm for eugenics could be found on both right and left at the time.
0 -
-
-
Among minor parties, the Scottish Nationalists took 4% of votes, the Greens had 3%, and Plaid Cymru had 1%.0
-
Here we go.
Hitler was a leftie.
Only from the PB Tories.
Only on PB.0 -
Actually it was Emiliano ZapataSunil_Prasannan said:
I rather die on my feet than live upon my knees.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata0 -
I actually have a weakness for cakes. And it is a big step up on whelks. First sign of progress in Labour for, well, several decades really.dr_spyn said:Labour's support for SMEs - cupcakes, bloody cupcakes.
http://www.labour.org.uk/today-the-whole-country-stands-with-small-businesses-like-mine
Where is the aspiration, where is the vision, where is the future in bloody cakes? Nothing like supporting new adaptive manufacturing techniques or 3D printing. Is this really the best example Labour can use.
0 -
Should you not be breaking seats and letting off smoke bombs somewhere ?Theuniondivvie said:
These guys must be raving lefties then..TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
http://tinyurl.com/lcd39es0 -
Shame, TSE! You need to read Zapata in the orginal Klingon!TheScreamingEagles said:
Actually it was Emiliano ZapataSunil_Prasannan said:
I rather die on my feet than live upon my knees.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata0 -
''I rather die on my feet than live upon my knees.''
Didn't Mel squeeze that in somewhere in Braveheart?0 -
He was not a nice man.JackW said:
Didn't that Hitler fellow have the odd rumble with the German communists in the 1930's and have an almighty punch-up with Stalin from 1941 onward ?!?Sean_F said:
In addition to the above, they suppressed the trade unions, and gave employers almost unfettered powers over their workforces. They were fervently anti-communist, and reinstated capital punishment. They sent the "asocial" to concentration camps. These would all have been considered right wing policies at the time.TGOHF said:
What marvellous free market policies did he have then ? None. So not right wing in any way shape or form.Sean_F said:
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
He was economically and ideologically to the left with a dose of non aligned anti semitism and warmongering on top.
Their hostility towards the Catholic Church aligns them with much of the European left at the time. Their enthusiasm for eugenics could be found on both right and left at the time.0 -
How do you define "middle Britain" and the "left"?taffys said:Remember when Maggie said he was a man "we can do business with"?
You have a point, but its not like SA was last man standing in the obnoxious regime stakes. And yet for the left the nasty SA regime was the only nasty man ever in the game.
I think this is what genuinely shocked Maggie when she defied all those calls to stop trading with SA.
Maggie realised that, as far as the left and obnoxious regimes were concerned, SA was the only game in town.
And the reason is that all the others were ranged against middle Britain.
0 -
They sought to turn aggression outwards, through conquest. All Germans (other than Jews and other enemies of the regime) were to be rewarded at the expense of non-Germans.JackW said:
Didn't that Hitler fellow have the odd rumble with the German communists in the 1930's and have an almighty punch-up with Stalin from 1941 onward ?!?Sean_F said:
In addition to the above, they suppressed the trade unions, and gave employers almost unfettered powers over their workforces. They were fervently anti-communist, and reinstated capital punishment. They sent the "asocial" to concentration camps. These would all have been considered right wing policies at the time.TGOHF said:
What marvellous free market policies did he have then ? None. So not right wing in any way shape or form.Sean_F said:
The Nazis don't really fit neatly into any left/right category. They took policies and ideas from both ends of the political spectrum.TGOHF said:
Old 'dolf was as lefty as they come :Sunil_Prasannan said:
SINO = Socialist in name only?Patrick said:
Err...at the risk of invoking Godwin's law I'd respectfully point out that Hitler was a socialist. A National Socialist. He was, if I recall correctly, the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP, better known to us all as the Nazis).JackW said:
For "lefty" read righty, for "kill a few million in the name of Marx" read kill millions in the name of Hitler.Patrick said:DavidL
Excellent post.
The reason SA came for so much more mudslinging than all the other horrors is that racism is the worst crime bar none in the lefty pantheon. Kill a few million in the name of Marx and that's collateral damage. But racism - that's really bad. Objectively of course apartheid SA wasn't even near the front of the queue of 20th century evil regimes.
Evil is not the preserve of either extreme of the political spectrum.
Nationalising key industries
High levels of state controlled employment rules
State intervening in healthcare and education
State controlling the media
Trade tariffs to protect German workers
Running up huge national debts
Virtually a Labour party manifesto.
He was economically and ideologically to the left with a dose of non aligned anti semitism and warmongering on top.
Their hostility towards the Catholic Church aligns them with much of the European left at the time. Their enthusiasm for eugenics could be found on both right and left at the time.
0 -
My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the LordSunil_Prasannan said:
AveryLP?richardDodd said:I wonderv how many PB Osborne fetishists dashed off to drool over his pics in theSpeccie, how sad..
http://bit.ly/1cwqIqH
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Trek Geek alert, the Undiscovered Country was one of the titles they considered for the Wrath of KhanSunil_Prasannan said:
Shame, TSE! You need to read Zapata in the orginal Klingon!TheScreamingEagles said:
Actually it was Emiliano ZapataSunil_Prasannan said:
I rather die on my feet than live upon my knees.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata0 -
New Thread0
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It wasn't as bad as the sustained program of torture and murder of poor south African blacks carried out by the Mandela family. I can't trace any pro-necklacing speeches by Mrs de Klerk. Do you know of any?R0berts said:Ahhh. Hitler was a lefty, apartheid wasn't THAT bad, and of course the left support Islamic terrorism.
It's Readings From The Big Book of Cliched Rightwing Stupidity hour on PB.
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How do you define "middle Britain" and the "left"?
Well you have a point and these are vague terms it would probably take a book (or at least a PhD) to really say who the 'the left' and who is 'middle Britain' (or who was at the time).
DavidL made the point that the Labour party critique of obnoxious regimes in the 60s, 70s and 80s was relative. I was just trying to offer an explanation as to why it was relative.
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Onl;y think you have your maths right:Sunil_Prasannan said:
ICM/The Sunil on Sunday Monday:TheScreamingEagles said:The latest Guardian/ICM poll shows the Conservatives closing the gap on Labour to just five percentage points. The Tories are on 32% – an advance of two points from November. Labour falls back one point to 37%, and the Liberal Democrats also sink by a point, to stand at 12%. Ukip is on 9%.
Most Britons have felt no benefits from economic recovery, opinion poll finds
Tories close gap on Labour by two points, despite 70% of voters polled by ICM/Guardian saying they have not seen any gains
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/09/no-gains-economic-recovery-tories-cut-labour-lead-icm-guardian-poll
Progressives 49%
Assorted fruitcakes/loonies 41%
Progressives (Con + LD) = 44%
Assorted fruitcakes/loonies 46%0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
New Thread
It seems the new thread is still in cyberspace. Even accessing via the December Archive (to the right of screen) does not track it down.
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