politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn’s “I’ll be PM by Xmas next year” boast fails impress pu

System · December 2017

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn’s “I’ll be PM by Xmas next year” boast fails impress punters

We all remember the heady days of June this year when after doing surprisingly well at the general election Corbyn was reported to have a told people at Glastonbury that he would be PM by Christmas.

Read the full story here

rottenborough · December 2017

first

RobD · December 2017

second

tlg86 · December 2017

Third

Stark_Dawning · December 2017

That was quite clever by Corbyn. One of his biggest problems was that he seemed so left-field that it was impossible to imagine him as PM. But by normalizing the concept he will actually make it psychological easier for people to vote for him. 'If he thinks he can then maybe he can' is oddly seductive.

rkrkrk · December 2017

On topic:

27% for next year seems far too high.

Off topic from previous thread:

The amount of benefits that claimants are entitled to claim but didn't was estimated by DWP at over 12bn. Only 6/10 of those entitled to JSA actually claimed it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/645577/income-related-benefits-estimates-of-take-up-2015-16.pdf

Charles · December 2017

JRM Junior

Carolus_Rex · December 2017

Stark_Dawning said:
That was quite clever by Corbyn. One of his biggest problems was that he seemed so left-field that it was impossible to imagine him as PM. But by normalizing the concept he will actually make it psychological easier for people to vote for him. 'If he thinks he can then maybe he can' is oddly seductive.

Well, maybe until this time next year. What are people supposed to think then? Third time lucky maybe?

Scott_P · December 2017

https://twitter.com/cartoon4sale/status/943087708116840449

rpjs · December 2017

FPT:

SouthamObserver said:

TGOHF said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

IanB2 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

TGOHF said:
Seems like the EU has a big red line - services in the FTA.

Wants its cake of being able to ship goods and the money but is totally inflexible on financial services.

Looks like their intransigence will earn them a hard Brexit.
Except it won't, not least because:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/943067653341696000
Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. If we hard Brexit then the agreement falls.
Get real. The government will be crucified if they come away with no deal. Whatever the Tory nutters might say.
Not if leaving free movement in is the price of that deal, though it seems not to be
Stopping free movement, if that required WTO, will be the end of the Tory Party. The party of business and free trade applying a policy which stops dead a significant portion of industry and sees basic foodstuffs short in supply and significantly more expensive would be the end.

Again, the "WTO will be alright" nutters are betting they know more about making airbus wings than GKN, or more about producing food than the people who import it grow it process it wholesale it sell it.

The level of pig-ignorant arrogance is astounding.
Stopping free movement doesn't mean no movement. It means there are rules rather than a free for all.

Ending free movement will make little difference at the bottom end - people will still come to do the kind of jobs that eastern Europeans living 10 to a room for a couple of years are prepared to do and locals are not. The issue will be much more about skilled workers. Why bother with the red tape and short-term nature of a work permit when you can just move to 27 other countries with no problem at all - especially when the Home Office has proved time and again that it is not fit for purpose when it comes to immigration control? It'll be the tech workers we so desperately need more of, the doctors, the academics and the others who have a choice of places to move that we lose out on. And that will be a shame.

The NAFTA TN visa could be a good model. It's only available for listed professions and requires the applicant to have a bachelor's degree, but it's issued on demand at the border when the applicant shows evidence of a qualifying job offer.

Scott_P · December 2017

Investment banks in Britain would have to stick closely to EU rules on issues such as bonus caps after Brexit, under proposals the European Commission is set to make on Wednesday.

The commission is planning tougher scrutiny of financial centres outside the EU that offer services to European clients, even as it insists that financial services will not be included in a Brexit trade deal with the UK.

Under such a scenario, the access to the EU market enjoyed by Britain’s financial services industry — home to about half the EU’s 6,000 investment companies — would be determined by whether the commission deems UK rules to be “equivalent” to EU standards, rather than by rights set out in a treaty.

https://www.ft.com/content/98c9a2b4-e4a0-11e7-97e2-916d4fbac0da

MarqueeMark · December 2017

Stark_Dawning said:
That was quite clever by Corbyn. One of his biggest problems was that he seemed so left-field that it was impossible to imagine him as PM. But by normalizing the concept he will actually make it psychological easier for people to vote for him. 'If he thinks he can then maybe he can' is oddly seductive.

Alternatively, he just looks like another politician full of piss and wind.

Richard_Nabavi · December 2017

Scott_P said:
Investment banks in Britain would have to stick closely to EU rules on issues such as bonus caps after Brexit, under proposals the European Commission is set to make on Wednesday.

The commission is planning tougher scrutiny of financial centres outside the EU that offer services to European clients, even as it insists that financial services will not be included in a Brexit trade deal with the UK.

Under such a scenario, the access to the EU market enjoyed by Britain’s financial services industry — home to about half the EU’s 6,000 investment companies — would be determined by whether the commission deems UK rules to be “equivalent” to EU standards, rather than by rights set out in a treaty.

https://www.ft.com/content/98c9a2b4-e4a0-11e7-97e2-916d4fbac0da

Or, in plain English, they do want to include financial services in the deal, for the reasons I gave on the previous thread.

That's good.

RobD · December 2017

Scott_P said:
Investment banks in Britain would have to stick closely to EU rules on issues such as bonus caps after Brexit, under proposals the European Commission is set to make on Wednesday.

The commission is planning tougher scrutiny of financial centres outside the EU that offer services to European clients, even as it insists that financial services will not be included in a Brexit trade deal with the UK.

Under such a scenario, the access to the EU market enjoyed by Britain’s financial services industry — home to about half the EU’s 6,000 investment companies — would be determined by whether the commission deems UK rules to be “equivalent” to EU standards, rather than by rights set out in a treaty.

https://www.ft.com/content/98c9a2b4-e4a0-11e7-97e2-916d4fbac0da

I assume every country in the world would be subject to those rules? Can't see that going down well.

The_Apocalypse · December 2017

Brendan O’Neill has given his thoughts on the press coverage of Remainer Tory MPs:

https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/943107240453656576

....and given he’s an ultra contrarian it’s as you’d expect.

Roger · December 2017

Dovetailing from the last thread the Labour party should be picking up all those socially liberal Remainers of which there are now 16,500,000 + 10% (according to Sunday's poll). Easily enough for a thumping majority.

The only snag is that Corbyn and his mini politburo look about as socially liberal as Ceausescu

Anazina · December 2017

FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.

IanB2 · December 2017

To be fair to him, did he ever specify which Christmas?

MarqueeMark · December 2017

Carolus_Rex said:

Stark_Dawning said:
That was quite clever by Corbyn. One of his biggest problems was that he seemed so left-field that it was impossible to imagine him as PM. But by normalizing the concept he will actually make it psychological easier for people to vote for him. 'If he thinks he can then maybe he can' is oddly seductive.
Well, maybe until this time next year. What are people supposed to think then? Third time lucky maybe?

Not even this time next year. On Boxing Day, we'll be able to say "you were the future once...."

Anazina · December 2017

Stark_Dawning said:
That was quite clever by Corbyn. One of his biggest problems was that he seemed so left-field that it was impossible to imagine him as PM. But by normalizing the concept he will actually make it psychological easier for people to vote for him. 'If he thinks he can then maybe he can' is oddly seductive.

Corbyn's trio of problems were a) he looked like an extremist b) he was unpopular c) no-one thought he could win.

The newly empowered and vocal Tory right have sorted out a) for him – he now looks like a moderate compared to them. Theresa May sorted out b) for him by holding an election where he scooped ~40% and held on to it afterwards. This the part of the strategy for c).

kyf_100 · December 2017

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.

Hello and welcome!

Out of interest, what do you find xenophobic about a country having control over who it does or doesn't let live and work there?

I presume you carefully control who you do or don't let into your house, sleep in your bed, rummage through your kitchen cabinets and eat all your crisps...

IanB2 · December 2017

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.

Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.

The_Apocalypse · December 2017

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.

+1.

Anazina · December 2017

Richard_Nabavi said:

Scott_P said:
Investment banks in Britain would have to stick closely to EU rules on issues such as bonus caps after Brexit, under proposals the European Commission is set to make on Wednesday.

The commission is planning tougher scrutiny of financial centres outside the EU that offer services to European clients, even as it insists that financial services will not be included in a Brexit trade deal with the UK.

Under such a scenario, the access to the EU market enjoyed by Britain’s financial services industry — home to about half the EU’s 6,000 investment companies — would be determined by whether the commission deems UK rules to be “equivalent” to EU standards, rather than by rights set out in a treaty.

https://www.ft.com/content/98c9a2b4-e4a0-11e7-97e2-916d4fbac0da
Or, in plain English, they do want to include financial services in the deal, for the reasons I gave on the previous thread.

That's good.

Why not just agree now for this key sector to match exactly EU regulations for the next 10 years as a minimum? Would smooth the way to a deal and offer a timely boost for the City, which could do with thanks to all this self-administered chaos and uncertainty.

stodge · December 2017

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.

Welcome to PB, Anazina.

You are a classic example of the adage that the quality of posts is inversely proportional to the quantity and the first post from most posters is well worth reading.

I'm a little worried about the bureaucracy and policing of a regional visa system but it's worth looking at. I do think if employers want to bring in foreign workers said employers should provide for their accommodation and make an additional contribution toward their transport, use of medical services etc.

Don't worry about HYUFD - his lack of any kind of critical faculty where the Conservative Party is concerned is almost endearing.

Roger · December 2017

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.

I sometimes wondered whether he was a self generating press release but there is now irrefutable evidence that he is a real living breathing sentient being who once stood as a Tory candidate.

The_Apocalypse · December 2017

Anazina said:

Stark_Dawning said:
That was quite clever by Corbyn. One of his biggest problems was that he seemed so left-field that it was impossible to imagine him as PM. But by normalizing the concept he will actually make it psychological easier for people to vote for him. 'If he thinks he can then maybe he can' is oddly seductive.

Corbyn's trio of problems were a) he looked like an extremist b) he was unpopular c) no-one thought he could win.

The newly empowered and vocal Tory right have sorted out a) for him – he now looks like a moderate compared to them. Theresa May sorted out b) for him by holding an election where he scooped ~40% and held on to it afterwards. This the part of the strategy for c).

Another brilliant post from yourself. Welcome to PB

Yorkcity · December 2017

Roger said:
Dovetailing from the last thread the Labour party should be picking up all those socially liberal Remainers of which there are now 16,500,000 + 10% (according to Sunday's poll). Easily enough for a thumping majority.

The only snag is that Corbyn and his mini politburo look about as socially liberal as Ceausescu

in what way ? Corbyn does not come across as some organised religious conservative headbanger.

Anazina · December 2017

kyf_100 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Hello and welcome!

Out of interest, what do you find xenophobic about a country having control over who it does or doesn't let live and work there?

I presume you carefully control who you do or don't let into your house, sleep in your bed, rummage through your kitchen cabinets and eat all your crisps...

Thanks for the welcome.

Entering people's property without permission is a crime, as is stealing.

Poor analogy.

Stark_Dawning · December 2017

The_Apocalypse said:
Brendan O’Neill has given his thoughts on the press coverage of Remainer Tory MPs:

https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/943107240453656576

....and given he’s an ultra contrarian it’s as you’d expect.

Odd. According to Brendan, when social-media goes after racist comedians or Trump supporters it's a 'Twitterstorm' or 'witch-hunt'. Go after a 'Remoaner' and it's people 'letting off steam'. Brendan is a strange little bean.

Charles · December 2017

Scott_P said:
Investment banks in Britain would have to stick closely to EU rules on issues such as bonus caps after Brexit, under proposals the European Commission is set to make on Wednesday.

The commission is planning tougher scrutiny of financial centres outside the EU that offer services to European clients, even as it insists that financial services will not be included in a Brexit trade deal with the UK.

Under such a scenario, the access to the EU market enjoyed by Britain’s financial services industry — home to about half the EU’s 6,000 investment companies — would be determined by whether the commission deems UK rules to be “equivalent” to EU standards, rather than by rights set out in a treaty.

https://www.ft.com/content/98c9a2b4-e4a0-11e7-97e2-916d4fbac0da

Equivalence status would be a fantastic outcome for the City

And bonus caps are fine - the UK regulators wanted them to be stricter but structured differently as they perversely increase systemic volatility.

I guess that's the problem with having politicians with no idea of financial services works setting the rules

Anazina · December 2017

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.

It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).

The_Apocalypse · December 2017

Stark_Dawning said:

The_Apocalypse said:
Brendan O’Neill has given his thoughts on the press coverage of Remainer Tory MPs:

https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/943107240453656576

....and given he’s an ultra contrarian it’s as you’d expect.
Odd. According to Brendan, when social-media goes after racist comedians or Trump supporters it's a 'Twitterstorm' or 'witch-hunt'. Go after a 'Remoaner' and it's people 'letting off steam'. Brendan is a strange little bean.

Exactly. Also, Spiked really is awful.

Anazina · December 2017

Stark_Dawning said:

The_Apocalypse said:
Brendan O’Neill has given his thoughts on the press coverage of Remainer Tory MPs:

https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/943107240453656576

....and given he’s an ultra contrarian it’s as you’d expect.
Odd. According to Brendan, when social-media goes after racist comedians or Trump supporters it's a 'Twitterstorm' or 'witch-hunt'. Go after a 'Remoaner' and it's people 'letting off steam'. Brendan is a strange little bean.

The outlandish O'Neill adds much to the gaiety of the nation. He would oppose himself were he to awake one morning to find himself popular.

stodge · December 2017

The_Apocalypse said:
Brendan O’Neill has given his thoughts on the press coverage of Remainer Tory MPs:

https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/943107240453656576

....and given he’s an ultra contrarian it’s as you’d expect.

For crying out loud, democracy isn't an absolute.

The 17.4 million who voted to LEAVE (and I include myself) might be wrong. People don't like being told they are wrong but they could be wrong - I could be wrong.

I've been wrong before - I don't feel "offended" by those telling me I might be wrong. I don't consider those who think I'm wrong "traitors" - that's a crass over-reaction.

Inasmuch as we have voted to LEAVE, it is incumbent on the Government to make it work for everyone not just the 17.4 million and not just because they are a larger group than the 16 million who voted REMAIN and the 13 million who didn't vote and also not just because they want to remain the party of Government.

RobD · December 2017

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.

Freedom of movement within certain areas of the UK? The Home Office can barely manage as it is!

Anazina · December 2017

Yorkcity said:

Roger said:
Dovetailing from the last thread the Labour party should be picking up all those socially liberal Remainers of which there are now 16,500,000 + 10% (according to Sunday's poll). Easily enough for a thumping majority.

The only snag is that Corbyn and his mini politburo look about as socially liberal as Ceausescu
in what way ? Corbyn does not come across as some organised religious conservative headbanger.

He is in fact a confirmed atheist.

Charles · December 2017

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).

Please don't dilute the quality with the old "minority" meme

If you don't vote your vote doesn't count

Anazina · December 2017

The_Apocalypse said:

Anazina said:

Stark_Dawning said:
That was quite clever by Corbyn. One of his biggest problems was that he seemed so left-field that it was impossible to imagine him as PM. But by normalizing the concept he will actually make it psychological easier for people to vote for him. 'If he thinks he can then maybe he can' is oddly seductive.

Corbyn's trio of problems were a) he looked like an extremist b) he was unpopular c) no-one thought he could win.

The newly empowered and vocal Tory right have sorted out a) for him – he now looks like a moderate compared to them. Theresa May sorted out b) for him by holding an election where he scooped ~40% and held on to it afterwards. This the part of the strategy for c).

Another brilliant post from yourself. Welcome to PB

Many thanks

JWisemann · December 2017

Has anyone actually got the text of the article? It’s just all this media hoo-ha seems based on a couple of very short quotes shorn of any context, which always rings alarm bells for me, especially when it comes to Corbyn, for whom misleading media coverage has been a constant bedfellow.

Westminster bubble people (including our GH) are still dining out on the ‘prime minister by xmas’ anecdote despite it being completely unverified second-hand gossip from someone else.

Corbyn derangement syndrome lives as strong as ever, it seems.

Roger · December 2017

Yorkcity said:

Roger said:
Dovetailing from the last thread the Labour party should be picking up all those socially liberal Remainers of which there are now 16,500,000 + 10% (according to Sunday's poll). Easily enough for a thumping majority.

The only snag is that Corbyn and his mini politburo look about as socially liberal as Ceausescu
in what way ? Corbyn does not come across as some organised religious conservative headbanger.

With Corbyn you have to read between the lines. He wants a return to the 70's which apart from Thatcher's reign was the most inequitable unmeritocratic in living memory. It's not coincidence that his staunchest supporters were born after the 70's were over and all they remember are the ugly 80's.

Anazina · December 2017

Charles said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
Please don't dilute the quality with the old "minority" meme

If you don't vote your vote doesn't count

They are still a minority even if you only count those people who did vote!

A good deal of actual Leave voters support freedom of movement.

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2017

Kay Burley is just so full of herself continually referring to the carrier as a 'boat' despite being chastised by the Admiral that it is a ship. It was quite delicious when Alistair Bunkall, her own defense correspondent, quite rightly corrected her and she ate humble pie.

Also the leak around the seal is equivalent of just over one shower and why do the media think ships have sea trials.

The level of journalism is so poor these days

rpjs · December 2017

The_Apocalypse said:

Stark_Dawning said:

The_Apocalypse said:
Brendan O’Neill has given his thoughts on the press coverage of Remainer Tory MPs:

https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/943107240453656576

....and given he’s an ultra contrarian it’s as you’d expect.
Odd. According to Brendan, when social-media goes after racist comedians or Trump supporters it's a 'Twitterstorm' or 'witch-hunt'. Go after a 'Remoaner' and it's people 'letting off steam'. Brendan is a strange little bean.
Exactly. Also, Spiked really is awful.

My theory is that Spiked is the RCP seeking to bring about the Revolution by promoting cognitive dissonance.

Mortimer · December 2017

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).

And those who voted Remain are in a smaller minority of the population.

Anazina · December 2017

RobD said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Freedom of movement within certain areas of the UK? The Home Office can barely manage as it is!

Good.

tlg86 · December 2017

Anazina said:

Charles said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
Please don't dilute the quality with the old "minority" meme

If you don't vote your vote doesn't count
They are still a minority even if you only count those people who did vote!

A good deal of actual Leave voters support freedom of movement.

And a good deal of remainers don't.

Richard_Nabavi · December 2017

Anazina said:
They are still a minority even if you only count those people who did vote!

A good deal of actual Leave voters support freedom of movement.

And many people who voted Remain don't support unlimited freedom of movement.

Welcome, BTW.

JWisemann · December 2017

Roger said:

Yorkcity said:

Roger said:
Dovetailing from the last thread the Labour party should be picking up all those socially liberal Remainers of which there are now 16,500,000 + 10% (according to Sunday's poll). Easily enough for a thumping majority.

The only snag is that Corbyn and his mini politburo look about as socially liberal as Ceausescu
in what way ? Corbyn does not come across as some organised religious conservative headbanger.
With Corbyn you have to read between the lines. He wants a return to the 70's which apart from Thatcher's reign was the most inequitable unmeritocratic in living memory. It's not coincidence that his staunchest supporters were born after the 70's were over and all they remember are the ugly 80's.

Actually the 70s ranked much higher in the equality stakes economically than today. There was a lot more homophobia, sexism and racism than today, of course, but that is in large part due to people like Corbyn who have campaigned for these issues and been derided as looney lefties as a result throughout the intervening period.

Charles · December 2017

Anazina said:

Charles said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
Please don't dilute the quality with the old "minority" meme

If you don't vote your vote doesn't count
They are still a minority even if you only count those people who did vote!

A good deal of actual Leave voters support freedom of movement.

Leavers are a majority of the voters

Anything else we don't know. It's up to the government to chart what they believe to be the optimal course. And to be judged on their decisions at the next election

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2017

Anazina said:

Charles said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
Please don't dilute the quality with the old "minority" meme

If you don't vote your vote doesn't count
They are still a minority even if you only count those people who did vote!

A good deal of actual Leave voters support freedom of movement.

Well this remain voter doesn't. It must be controlled immigration and to suit our needs

Charles · December 2017

Why did @Anazina get banned?

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2017

Charles said:
Why did @Anazina get banned?

Has she been banned - I thought she has only started posting

SandyRentool · December 2017

Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/cartoon4sale/status/943087708116840449

What a silly cartoon. Does the cartoonist really think that ships are full of water that leaks out?

I would suggest that it is Tezzie who is holed below the waterline.

The_Apocalypse · December 2017

rpjs said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Stark_Dawning said:

The_Apocalypse said:
Brendan O’Neill has given his thoughts on the press coverage of Remainer Tory MPs:

https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/943107240453656576

....and given he’s an ultra contrarian it’s as you’d expect.
Odd. According to Brendan, when social-media goes after racist comedians or Trump supporters it's a 'Twitterstorm' or 'witch-hunt'. Go after a 'Remoaner' and it's people 'letting off steam'. Brendan is a strange little bean.
Exactly. Also, Spiked really is awful.
My theory is that Spiked is the RCP seeking to bring about the Revolution by promoting cognitive dissonance.

LOL

Spiked reminds me of all those YouTube channels dedicated to following the every moment of ‘SJWs’ and generally any millennial caught doing something silly on a university campus.

IanB2 · December 2017

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).

And - a factoid often not appreciated - unless some of them change the habit of a lifetime, they are probably a minority of general election voters also.

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2017

SandyRentool said:

Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/cartoon4sale/status/943087708116840449
What a silly cartoon. Does the cartoonist really think that ships are full of water that leaks out?

I would suggest that it is Tezzie who is holed below the waterline.

Haven't you heard of bilge pumps and their use

logical_song · December 2017

SandyRentool said:

Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/cartoon4sale/status/943087708116840449
What a silly cartoon. Does the cartoonist really think that ships are full of water that leaks out?

I would suggest that it is Tezzie who is holed below the waterline.

If we're going to get picky - Corbyn isn't to scale either ;-)

stevef · December 2017

Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.

Tissue_Price · December 2017

Some bold predictions here:
http://www.pagefield.co.uk/insight/the-year-that-was-2017/

Ishmael_Z · December 2017

Anazina said:

kyf_100 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Hello and welcome!

Out of interest, what do you find xenophobic about a country having control over who it does or doesn't let live and work there?

I presume you carefully control who you do or don't let into your house, sleep in your bed, rummage through your kitchen cabinets and eat all your crisps...
Thanks for the welcome.

Entering people's property without permission is a crime, as is stealing.

Poor analogy.

Entering property without permission is not a crime.

Ave atque Vale.

Mortimer · December 2017

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SandyRentool said:

Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/cartoon4sale/status/943087708116840449
What a silly cartoon. Does the cartoonist really think that ships are full of water that leaks out?

I would suggest that it is Tezzie who is holed below the waterline.
Haven't you heard of bilge pumps and their use

I think Sandy is suggesting that pumped bilge don't tend to come out of cracks on the sides....

Yorkcity · December 2017

Roger said:

Yorkcity said:

Roger said:
Dovetailing from the last thread the Labour party should be picking up all those socially liberal Remainers of which there are now 16,500,000 + 10% (according to Sunday's poll). Easily enough for a thumping majority.

The only snag is that Corbyn and his mini politburo look about as socially liberal as Ceausescu
in what way ? Corbyn does not come across as some organised religious conservative headbanger.
With Corbyn you have to read between the lines. He wants a return to the 70's which apart from Thatcher's reign was the most inequitable unmeritocratic in living memory. It's not coincidence that his staunchest supporters were born after the 70's were over and all they remember are the ugly 80's.

Agreed , I just was not getting the social liberal element.As Corbyn and Labour in general seem to have won that ground over the past generation.It is the economics that is more the concern for many .

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2017

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
And - a factoid often not appreciated - unless some of them change the habit of a lifetime, they are probably a minority of general election voters also.

You confidently make these statements but they are impossible to verify. The next twelve months will define the deal and whether or not we have a successful divorce. If TM does a deal that satisfies most but not the extremes on both sides that will end the debate until or unless a party decides to campaign at a GE to rejoin

rottenborough · December 2017

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.

I strongly suspect that all this guff about Corbyn being in No.10 by xmas and there'll be an election next year etc etc is actually just being said to keep the Labour Party on a feeling of war footing and keep young Momentum types spirits up. If there's a feeling that there might be an election then less likely that moderate MPs will be rocking boats.

Obviously it is nonsense as Mike points out.

HYUFD · December 2017

In June it was May who was being too hubristic, she has now learnt her lesson and it is Corbyn with the hubris. One thing June proved is the voters do not like being taken for granted

Roger · December 2017

Charles said:
Why did @Anazina get banned?

I don't know but I was enjoying his/her posts.

Release Barabbus!

Nigelb · December 2017

Ishmael_Z said:

Anazina said:

kyf_100 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Hello and welcome!

Out of interest, what do you find xenophobic about a country having control over who it does or doesn't let live and work there?

I presume you carefully control who you do or don't let into your house, sleep in your bed, rummage through your kitchen cabinets and eat all your crisps...
Thanks for the welcome.

Entering people's property without permission is a crime, as is stealing.

Poor analogy.
Entering property without permission is not a crime.

Ave atque Vale.

That's generally the case in English law, but not always;
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/trespass-and-nuisance-land

Anazina · December 2017

Mortimer said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
And those who voted Remain are in a smaller minority of the population.

Given the arguments about who supports it and who doesn't, my point is it's a dumb thing to obsess about when making a trade deal!

Nigelb · December 2017

Charles said:
Why did @Anazina get banned?

Giving misleading legal advice ?

SandyRentool · December 2017

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SandyRentool said:

Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/cartoon4sale/status/943087708116840449
What a silly cartoon. Does the cartoonist really think that ships are full of water that leaks out?

I would suggest that it is Tezzie who is holed below the waterline.
Haven't you heard of bilge pumps and their use

Vapid bilge pumps, surely?

IanB2 · December 2017

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.

Your post is predicated on Brexit not doing any short term damage. As devil's advocate, the counter-argument is that a slice of old Tories have died yet the age cohorts rising into middle-age are still excluded from home ownership, Brexit leaves the UK lagging behind, Tory infighting over the succession does them no favours, the fallout from Brexit continues to make it difficult for Tories to take Labour on in terms of economic credibility, and even more younger people (which is coming to mean anyone not actually retired) are motivated to turn out, following the example of those that did in 2017.

Anazina · December 2017

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Charles said:
Why did @Anazina get banned?
Has she been banned - I thought she has only started posting

I hope not! I am here!

HYUFD · December 2017

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).

CCHQ line or not more voted Leave than have voted for anything since WW2 and even many Remain voters would be happy with work permits replacing free movement to reduce unskilled immigration from the EU and just focus on migrants with the skills we need

Nigelb · December 2017

rottenborough said:

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.
I strongly suspect that all this guff about Corbyn being in No.10 by xmas....

Corbyn and the German WW1 general staff... who'd have thought.

Anazina · December 2017

HYUFD said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
CCHQ line or not more voted Leave than have voted for anything since WW2 and even many Remain voters would be happy with work permits replacing free movement to reduce unskilled immigration from the EU and just focus on migrants with the skills we need

There has been no vote on freedom of movement. Why obsess about it when trying to make a trade deal?

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2017

The anger over the Conservative rebels abuse is justified but this abuse is not confined to some anti EU bodes but it is widespread across the parties. It was interesting to hear Amber Rudd name check John McDonnell at the dispatch box over his unacceptable abuse of Esther McVey.

I do hope that abuse is called out from all sides and prosecutions follow and it will not only be the far right who will be caught out but elements of the far left.

Standards in public life and respect for MP's is at the core of our democracy and it will be interesting in time to see how the moderate labour MP's fare over the attacks they will come in for from the Corbynista's

Yorkcity · December 2017

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.

To be fair , I think Corbyn looks good for his age.The old sea dog type.

MarqueeMark · December 2017

Nigelb said:

rottenborough said:

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.
I strongly suspect that all this guff about Corbyn being in No.10 by xmas....
Corbyn and the German WW1 general staff... who'd have thought.

Arf!

HYUFD · December 2017

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.

Why can we not end free movement and get a free trade deal? Even Barnier has said the UK will be offered a Canada style FTA post Brexit even if it ends free movement now phase 1 is complete

stevef · December 2017

Yorkcity said:

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.
To be fair , I think Corbyn looks good for his age.The old sea dog type.

An old dog certainly, Captain Birdseye maybe, prime minister No.

SandyRentool · December 2017

Anazina said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Charles said:
Why did @Anazina get banned?
Has she been banned - I thought she has only started posting

I hope not! I am here!

Fake news from @Charles !!!

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2017

Anazina said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Charles said:
Why did @Anazina get banned?
Has she been banned - I thought she has only started posting

I hope not! I am here!

Good

Stark_Dawning · December 2017

The_Apocalypse said:

Stark_Dawning said:

The_Apocalypse said:
Brendan O’Neill has given his thoughts on the press coverage of Remainer Tory MPs:

https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/943107240453656576

....and given he’s an ultra contrarian it’s as you’d expect.
Odd. According to Brendan, when social-media goes after racist comedians or Trump supporters it's a 'Twitterstorm' or 'witch-hunt'. Go after a 'Remoaner' and it's people 'letting off steam'. Brendan is a strange little bean.
Exactly. Also, Spiked really is awful.

I used to quite like Spiked some time ago - for example, it took a noble stand for natural justice when everyone else was sharpening their pitchforks over imaginary paedophile rings. But it, or perhaps Brendan, seems to have taken disgruntlement with Trump/Brexit in some elite circles as somehow bestowing a kind of sanctity upon Trump/Brexit themselves. Each side gives as good as it gets as far as I can see. Does Brendan always have to act as one side's minder?

Ishmael_Z · December 2017

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SandyRentool said:

Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/cartoon4sale/status/943087708116840449
What a silly cartoon. Does the cartoonist really think that ships are full of water that leaks out?

I would suggest that it is Tezzie who is holed below the waterline.
Haven't you heard of bilge pumps and their use

They tend not to discharge via randomly located cracks in the hull, though. A belly flop of a cartoon.

Edit: sorry, just realized it is anti-Corbyn. Absolutely cracking gag, finest tradition of Gillray, etc.

HYUFD · December 2017

Roger said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
I sometimes wondered whether he was a self generating press release but there is now irrefutable evidence that he is a real living breathing sentient being who once stood as a Tory candidate.

And will likely be again next year

Recidivist · December 2017

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.

1. Why would people who voted for him this time not vote for him again? I know there are some who voted for him because they thought he couldn't win. But there are also people who didn't vote for him because they thought he couldn't win. Unless you have a reason to believe the first group is bigger than the second you are simply guessing.

2. Brexit might be done, but the issue won't have been forgotten and there might well be even more people who want to punish the govt for it by then.

3. I'll give you that he will look older. But the passage of time is beyond anyone's control.

4. There may be a new Tory leader. The question is whether it will be a better Tory leader.

5. I doubt the Tories will make the same mistakes again, but there are an infinite number of never previously made mistakes available. And I don't think the Tory's already undeserved reputation for economic competence will survive Brexit.

6. Piling up votes in Labour held seats was emphatically not what happened in 2017. In fact they lost some Labour seats. The electoral map in fact looks very favourable to Labour if they can shore up support in their one time heartlands. Throw in a Lib Dem revival or a UKIP revival as well and the Tories look very vulnerable. All three at the same time would seal their doom.

stevef · December 2017

Corbyn has learnt nothing about politics.. Politicians should never ever take the electorate for granted. He predicts today that he would win a general election. He and his supporters have repeatedly announced the result of the next election in advance something that Blair, Thatcher, Wilson, Attlee, Heath, Major never did. The last major politician to predict his victory in advance was Neil Kinnock....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc

stevef · December 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc

kyf_100 · December 2017

Anazina said:

kyf_100 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Hello and welcome!

Out of interest, what do you find xenophobic about a country having control over who it does or doesn't let live and work there?

I presume you carefully control who you do or don't let into your house, sleep in your bed, rummage through your kitchen cabinets and eat all your crisps...
Thanks for the welcome.

Entering people's property without permission is a crime, as is stealing.

Poor analogy.

Good, so you have a basic concept of boundaries. Well, in 2016, there was this little vote where a lot of people said "actually, we are uncomfortable with anyone and everyone being able to come and go as they choose, because that is deleterious to the fabric of our society".

Just as I am not free to come into your home and start munching your crisps, so too the people of the UK voted in such a way that indicated a preference for allowing invited guests in, rather than the current free-for-all imposed on us by Brussels.

Good analogy.

Explain to me, again, what you find xenophobic about a desire to control one's borders and keep undesirables out?

TheScreamingEagles · December 2017

https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/943159874032160768

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2017

SandyRentool said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SandyRentool said:

Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/cartoon4sale/status/943087708116840449
What a silly cartoon. Does the cartoonist really think that ships are full of water that leaks out?

I would suggest that it is Tezzie who is holed below the waterline.
Haven't you heard of bilge pumps and their use
Vapid bilge pumps, surely?

The problem with the story is that approx one full shower amount of water is leaking through one of the screw housings and obviously will be exited through the bilge pumps. It is not leaking all over as some hope

Carolus_Rex · December 2017

Yorkcity said:

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.
To be fair , I think Corbyn looks good for his age.The old sea dog type.

He reportedly doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and lives only on beansprouts (OK I made that last one up) so he ought to be a picture of health.

Anazina · December 2017

Yorkcity said:

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.
To be fair , I think Corbyn looks good for his age.The old sea dog type.

He is a keen cyclist and vegetarian who doesn't drink very much. Compare him with the overweight (albeit completely teetotal) Trumpton who survives on Big Macs, fries and milkshake.

HYUFD · December 2017

stevef said:
Corbyn has learnt nothing about politics.. Politicians should never ever take the electorate for granted. He predicts today that he would win a general election. He and his supporters have repeatedly announced the result of the next election in advance something that Blair, Thatcher, Wilson, Attlee, Heath, Major never did. The last major politician to predict his victory in advance was Neil Kinnock....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc

At the moment my best guess is the Tories will win most seats but Corbyn will end up PM with support from the SNP and maybe the LDs.

However no PM since 1945 has got the post after coming second in terms of seats.

Nigelb · December 2017

kyf_100 said:

Anazina said:

kyf_100 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Hello and welcome!

Out of interest, what do you find xenophobic about a country having control over who it does or doesn't let live and work there?

I presume you carefully control who you do or don't let into your house, sleep in your bed, rummage through your kitchen cabinets and eat all your crisps...
Thanks for the welcome.

Entering people's property without permission is a crime, as is stealing.

Poor analogy.
Good, so you have a basic concept of boundaries. Well, in 2016, there was this little vote where a lot of people said "actually, we are uncomfortable with anyone and everyone being able to come and go as they choose, because that is deleterious to the fabric of our society".

Just as I am not free to come into your home and start munching your crisps, so too the people of the UK voted in such a way that indicated a preference for allowing invited guests in, rather than the current free-for-all imposed on us by Brussels.

Good analogy.

Explain to me, again, what you find xenophobic about a desire to control one's borders and keep undesirables out?

I guess your neighbours don't visit you very often ?

Anazina · December 2017

Carolus_Rex said:

Yorkcity said:

stevef said:
Corbyn will not be prime minister by Christmas 2018. Or 2019. Or 2020 Or 2021.....

When the election comes in 2022, Corbyn will be faced with many problems:

1). The older Tories who did not turn out in 2017, will almost certainly turn out against him in 2022.

2). Brexit will be done.

3). Corbyn already looks older than 69. In 2022 he will look older than 73.

4). There will be a new Tory leader.

5). The Tories will not make the same mistakes of 2017. They will have planned their election strategy for 4 years, and it will target Corbyn's economic black hole.

6). Piling up votes in seats Labour already holds will not be enough. Labour will have to win dozens of Tory non university marginals. Those who voted Tory in 2017 will have to vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn can go on writing to Santa and praying for a Red Christmas but it aint gonna come.
To be fair , I think Corbyn looks good for his age.The old sea dog type.
He reportedly doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and lives only on beansprouts (OK I made that last one up) so he ought to be a picture of health.

He does drink but not very much.

IanB2 · December 2017

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
And - a factoid often not appreciated - unless some of them change the habit of a lifetime, they are probably a minority of general election voters also.
You confidently make these statements but they are impossible to verify. The next twelve months will define the deal and whether or not we have a successful divorce. If TM does a deal that satisfies most but not the extremes on both sides that will end the debate until or unless a party decides to campaign at a GE to rejoin

Using MORI data (needs must)

% 2016 leavers = 51.9% x GE turnout 67% = 34.8

% 2016 remainers = 48.1% x GE turnout 74% = 35.6

So, all things remaining unchanged, 50.6% of 2017 GE voters were remainers.

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2017

Anazina said:

HYUFD said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
CCHQ line or not more voted Leave than have voted for anything since WW2 and even many Remain voters would be happy with work permits replacing free movement to reduce unskilled immigration from the EU and just focus on migrants with the skills we need
There has been no vote on freedom of movement. Why obsess about it when trying to make a trade deal?

The leave vote was absolutely over controlling immigration, returning our laws and our money. And I say that as someone who voted remain

HYUFD · December 2017

Anazina said:

HYUFD said:

Anazina said:

IanB2 said:

Anazina said:
FPT The complete obsession with ending 'free movement' is likely to be the undoing of a good deal for the UK. Reading HYUFD bang out the stock Central Office policy line hour after hour, day after day might have a hypnotic effect on the weaker of mind, but it hardly moves the process forward.

In some part, the UK will have to fudge on free movement to get a decent deal. Ultimately even the witless Theresa May won't drive the economy to the wall on the back of xenophobic calls to lock out foreigners.

Regional visas would be one idea – free movement within London/Greater Manchester and other successful outward-looking cities where international colleagues are welcome. Canada uses a similar system, province by province.
Welcome to PB, and a great first post. Yes, our fruit and veg won't pick themselves and, barring a few vending machines, coffee will still need to be made and restaurant meals served. We have everything to lose by taking too rigid a line on movement, not least because Brexit has already made many EU workers feel less than welcome here.
It is a sad state of affairs brought about by a clear minority of the country. That doesn't get said enough. Those who voted Leave are in a minority of the population; those who voted Leave and are opposed to free movement a smaller minority still. I note several Leavers on here actually support free movement.

(I sense that HYUFD will be here very shortly to trot out a Central Office line, probably in a very long sentence without the benefit of punctuation).
CCHQ line or not more voted Leave than have voted for anything since WW2 and even many Remain voters would be happy with work permits replacing free movement to reduce unskilled immigration from the EU and just focus on migrants with the skills we need
There has been no vote on freedom of movement. Why obsess about it when trying to make a trade deal?

There has, both the Tories and Labour promised to end free movement at the general election and got 80% of the vote combined. The LDs got just 7% on a platform to stay permanently in the single market

Yorkcity · December 2017

stevef said:
Corbyn has learnt nothing about politics.. Politicians should never ever take the electorate for granted. He predicts today that he would win a general election. He and his supporters have repeatedly announced the result of the next election in advance something that Blair, Thatcher, Wilson, Attlee, Heath, Major never did. The last major politician to predict his victory in advance was Neil Kinnock....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc

Steve who did you vote for in the last two Labour Leadership elections ? Also do you think they would have done any better in June 17.

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