Winstanley said:

stevef said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

People see through populist demagogues like Trump, Farage and Corbyn in the end. Interesting that Corbyn uses almost the exact phrases and words that Trump uses like "rigged".

Sanders is more Corbyn and Farage more Trump

Thats the way that Corbyn and his supporters would like to see it. In reality Corbyn is the British Trump. Sanders was no Corbyn. Sanders is much more intelligent and thoughtful than Corbyn. Corbyn, like Trump tries to appeal to people by empty demagoguery, using words like "rigged" Corbyn is very much the British Trump. If he ever gets power -and I doubt he will -he will end up as the most hated politician in the UK, just as Trump is going down in the same way.

You would be slagging off Sanders if you were in tbe USA I'm sure. If it matters he also used 'rigged', as have politicians of every stripe for ever.

Watch Trumps and Corbyn's speeches. Corbyn copies Trump's language and tactics exactly. Corbyn and Trump even use the "fake news" analogy and the concept that there is a media conspiracy against them.
Read the article in Labour's own New Statesman. Corbyn is no Sanders.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/02/no-bernie-sanders-not-america-s-jeremy-corbyn

mwadams said:

kyf_100 said:

Yes. I come here to listen to people with different points of view, argue with them, but ultimately try to understand them. And that is certainly one point of view. "I think Brexit will be an economic disaster, I will lose my job and not be able to feed my family, that is rather more important to me than the UK's democratic institutions" is a valid point of view, albeit one I disagree with - a strong democracy is such an important guarantor of individual liberty I would personally be prepared to suffer short term economic consequences if I felt it was the only way to preserve them.

It would also be reasonable to argue (in this country at least) that no-one particularly owes "allegiance" to the place where by a combination of accident-of-birth, convenience, indolence, economic or political constraint, and various forms of self-interest you happen to be allied or embedded in your daily life. If those balances are not working for you, there should be no stigma in seeking other options.

In fact, I don't see how this is any different to the argument in favour of leaving the EU. Anyone in this country under the age of 43, by an accident of birth etc., has been a part of that institution for their entire lives. Choosing to seek another path away from it isn't "treachery". The institutions of the (modern) UK state are roughly 5-6 times older, but that's nothing in the great scheme of things.

I wish to live under a democracy.
I do not believe the EU is democratic now, moreover I believe a federal superstate will dilute democracy further.
I am fond of my country and my culture, but most of all, I am fond of freedom - of living in a place where I get to hire and fire my masters and am part of a vital check and balance on them at the ballot box.
Based on the direction of travel in recent years, I fear that freedom will be taken away from me.
The UK has demonstrated, through institutions as you say that are five or six times older, a robust democracy with appropriate checks and balances on power. The EU has not.
Culturally, I consider myself British. But ideologically, I am a staunch believer in liberal democracy. The two are intertwined but separate. The UK happens to be a liberal democracy - the EU - less so.

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

People see through populist demagogues like Trump, Farage and Corbyn in the end. Interesting that Corbyn uses almost the exact phrases and words that Trump uses like "rigged".

Sanders is more Corbyn and Farage more Trump

Thats the way that Corbyn and his supporters would like to see it. In reality Corbyn is the British Trump. Sanders was no Corbyn. Sanders is much more intelligent and thoughtful than Corbyn. Corbyn, like Trump tries to appeal to people by empty demagoguery, using words like "rigged" Corbyn is very much the British Trump. If he ever gets power -and I doubt he will -he will end up as the most hated politician in the UK, just as Trump is going down in the same way.

You would be slagging off Sanders if you were in tbe USA I'm sure. If it matters he also used 'rigged', as have politicians of every stripe for ever.

Watch Trumps and Corbyn's speeches. Corbyn copies Trump's language and tactics exactly. Corbyn and Trump even use the "fake news" analogy and the concept that there is a media conspiracy against them.
Read the article in Labour's own New Statesman. Corbyn is no Sanders.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/02/no-bernie-sanders-not-america-s-jeremy-corbyn

To be fair to Corbyn, May also used the fake news thing during the campaign. That was particularly cringe-worthy.

HHemmelig said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

David_Evershed said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CD13 said:

Mr Eagles,

You're a Tory voter. What do the Tories gain from the rebels' victory? The government is seen to be weaker, the EU negotiators gain confidence, and Jezza can crow about his victory.

The only explanation is the rebels believe they can influence things - in a bad way for Leave. I don't believe Soubry for one would ever vote to accept any deal which results in us leaving. Labour would be pleased to vote against and blame the splits in the Tory party for it.

If nothing else, they can delay things more.

if I were a fanatic Remainer, my cunning plan would be to rubbish our negotiations, complain it's all too difficult, make it as difficult as possible and hope with the media advantage to erode the will to leave.

I don't think I'd have the brass neck to claim it's all on behalf of democracy, though.

Mr Meeks is still in his Mr Hyde mode. Dr Jekyll may not return for some time.

I'm a Tory activist, and the rest of your post proceeds from a false premise.

Given the average age of Conservative members, is "activist" appropriate terminology anymore, excepting yourself of course?

Not that old chesnut.

The average age of Conservative Party members is 57 – four years older than Labour ones.

https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/

As you well know, that is an estimate, not a fact.

As it was concocted from a YouGov survey, it seems plausible to assume that it would have missed out the majority of the oldest armchair Tory party members.

Bow Group estimates suggested the average age was 72 and that does seem more in line with common sense.

No as it came from representative samples provided by local associations, given the average Tory voter is 47 hardly much surprise the average Tory member is 57

Frank Field has a warning for Labour https://mobile.twitter.com/frankfieldteam/status/941261178214502400

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

People see through populist demagogues like Trump, Farage and Corbyn in the end. Interesting that Corbyn uses almost the exact phrases and words that Trump uses like "rigged".

Sanders is more Corbyn and Farage more Trump

Thats the way that Corbyn and his supporters would like to see it. In reality Corbyn is the British Trump. Sanders was no Corbyn. Sanders is much more intelligent and thoughtful than Corbyn. Corbyn, like Trump tries to appeal to people by empty demagoguery, using words like "rigged" Corbyn is very much the British Trump. If he ever gets power -and I doubt he will -he will end up as the most hated politician in the UK, just as Trump is going down in the same way.

You would be slagging off Sanders if you were in tbe USA I'm sure. If it matters he also used 'rigged', as have politicians of every stripe for ever.

Watch Trumps and Corbyn's speeches. Corbyn copies Trump's language and tactics exactly. Corbyn and Trump even use the "fake news" analogy and the concept that there is a media conspiracy against them.
Read the article in Labour's own New Statesman. Corbyn is no Sanders.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/02/no-bernie-sanders-not-america-s-jeremy-corbyn

Corbyn and Sanders aren't exactly the same, and are each a left-wing challenge to Third Way politics in different contexts - well blow me down and sign me up for Angela4Leader now.

Corbyn and Sanders are completely different as the Labour article shows. "Left wing" is a wide umbrella term. You may as well say that Stalin and Corbyn are each a challenge to the Establishment. And that is another thing that Corbynistas do: they try to present left wing politics as a binary choice between hard left Corbynism and third way right wing Blairism. What about traditional Labour which is neither of these, the Labour of John Smith and Harold Wilson>

David_Evershed said:

Were yesterday's Tory rebels all Remainers.

Their argument would be boosted if they had a number of Leavers amongst the rebels.

Why? Are only Leavers allowed opinions nowadays?

kyf_100 said:

mwadams said:

kyf_100 said:

Yes. I come here to listen to people with different points of view, argue with them, but ultimately try to understand them. And that is certainly one point of view. "I think Brexit will be an economic disaster, I will lose my job and not be able to feed my family, that is rather more important to me than the UK's democratic institutions" is a valid point of view, albeit one I disagree with - a strong democracy is such an important guarantor of individual liberty I would personally be prepared to suffer short term economic consequences if I felt it was the only way to preserve them.

It would also be reasonable to argue (in this country at least) that no-one particularly owes "allegiance" to the place where by a combination of accident-of-birth, convenience, indolence, economic or political constraint, and various forms of self-interest you happen to be allied or embedded in your daily life. If those balances are not working for you, there should be no stigma in seeking other options.

In fact, I don't see how this is any different to the argument in favour of leaving the EU. Anyone in this country under the age of 43, by an accident of birth etc., has been a part of that institution for their entire lives. Choosing to seek another path away from it isn't "treachery". The institutions of the (modern) UK state are roughly 5-6 times older, but that's nothing in the great scheme of things.

I wish to live under a democracy.
I do not believe the EU is democratic now, moreover I believe a federal superstate will dilute democracy further.
I am fond of my country and my culture, but most of all, I am fond of freedom - of living in a place where I get to hire and fire my masters and am part of a vital check and balance on them at the ballot box.
Based on the direction of travel in recent years, I fear that freedom will be taken away from me.
The UK has demonstrated, through institutions as you say that are five or six times older, a robust democracy with appropriate checks and balances on power. The EU has not.
Culturally, I consider myself British. But ideologically, I am a staunch believer in liberal democracy. The two are intertwined but separate. The UK happens to be a liberal democracy - the EU - less so.

Sure: that's a totally legitimate argument. I'm just saying that the position that we owe allegiance to one institution or another is a pragmatic one (in exactly the way you put it forward) not some absolutist principle based on accidents of birth and history.

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

People see through populist demagogues like Trump, Farage and Corbyn in the end. Interesting that Corbyn uses almost the exact phrases and words that Trump uses like "rigged".

Sanders is more Corbyn and Farage more Trump

Thats the way that Corbyn and his supporters would like to see it. In reality Corbyn is the British Trump. Sanders was no Corbyn. Sanders is much more intelligent and thoughtful than Corbyn. Corbyn, like Trump tries to appeal to people by empty demagoguery, using words like "rigged" Corbyn is very much the British Trump. If he ever gets power -and I doubt he will -he will end up as the most hated politician in the UK, just as Trump is going down in the same way.

You would be slagging off Sanders if you were in tbe USA I'm sure. If it matters he also used 'rigged', as have politicians of every stripe for ever.

Watch Trumps and Corbyn's speeches. Corbyn copies Trump's language and tactics exactly. Corbyn and Trump even use the "fake news" analogy and the concept that there is a media conspiracy against them.
Read the article in Labour's own New Statesman. Corbyn is no Sanders.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/02/no-bernie-sanders-not-america-s-jeremy-corbyn

Corbyn and Sanders aren't exactly the same, and are each a left-wing challenge to Third Way politics in different contexts - well blow me down and sign me up for Angela4Leader now.

Corbyn and Sanders are completely different as the Labour article shows. "Left wing" is a wide umbrella term. You may as well say that Stalin and Corbyn are each a challenge to the Establishment. And that is another thing that Corbynistas do: they try to present left wing politics as a binary choice between hard left Corbynism and third way right wing Blairism. What about traditional Labour which is neither of these, the Labour of John Smith and Harold Wilson>

So irreconcilably different that each openly and fully endorsed the other, right. While Corbyn and Trump are exactly the same because each used the word 'rigged' at some point. Teach me more great historian of the labour movement.

HHemmelig said:

RobD said:

HHemmelig said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

David_Evershed said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CD13 said:

Mr Eagles,

You're a Tory voter. What do the Tories gain from the rebels' victory? The government is seen to be weaker, the EU negotiators gain confidence, and Jezza can crow about his victory.

The only explanation is the rebels believe they can influence things - in a bad way for Leave. I don't believe Soubry for one would ever vote to accept any deal which results in us leaving. Labour would be pleased to vote against and blame the splits in the Tory party for it.

If nothing else, they can delay things more.

if I were a fanatic Remainer, my cunning plan would be to rubbish our negotiations, complain it's all too difficult, make it as difficult as possible and hope with the media advantage to erode the will to leave.

I don't think I'd have the brass neck to claim it's all on behalf of democracy, though.

Mr Meeks is still in his Mr Hyde mode. Dr Jekyll may not return for some time.

I'm a Tory activist, and the rest of your post proceeds from a false premise.

Given the average age of Conservative members, is "activist" appropriate terminology anymore, excepting yourself of course?

Not that old chesnut.

The average age of Conservative Party members is 57 – four years older than Labour ones.

https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/

As you well know, that is an estimate, not a fact.

As it was concocted from a YouGov survey, it seems plausible to assume that it would have missed out the majority of the oldest armchair Tory party members.

Bow Group estimates suggested the average age was 72 and that does seem more in line with common sense.

The Bow Group's estimate is not a fact either. The fullfact page did say that the 57 number should be more reliable.

A YouGov sample of Tory members will have an average age way below that of all members. Because the vast numbers of 80 and 90somethings who are members of the party won't be part of it. So we can reasonably surmise IMO that 57 is most likely a vast underestimate. Whether the true figure is as high as 72 is debateable, but attend any Tory party constituency event in the shires and it doesn't seem an unreasonable guess.

A glance at the audience at the Tory Conference suggests that there are very few people there under 60 - if they are representative of the wider membership it's hard to believe the average age is in the 50s.

I believe that the data on which the average age of 57 is based was collected in 2013 so it's quite old now, and, as has been said, is probably not accurate anyway.

anothernick said:

HHemmelig said:

RobD said:

HHemmelig said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

David_Evershed said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CD13 said:

Mr Eagles,

You're a Tory voter. What do the Tories gain from the rebels' victory? The government is seen to be weaker, the EU negotiators gain confidence, and Jezza can crow about his victory.

The only explanation is the rebels believe they can influence things - in a bad way for Leave. I don't believe Soubry for one would ever vote to accept any deal which results in us leaving. Labour would be pleased to vote against and blame de mode. Dr Jekyll may not return for some time.

I'm a Tory activist, and the rest of your post proceeds from a false premise.

Given the average age of Conservative members, is "activist" appropriate terminology anymore, excepting yourself of course?

Not that old chesnut.

The average age of Conservative Party members is 57 – four years older than Labour ones.

https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/

As you well know, that is an estimate, not a fact.

As it was concocted from a YouGov survey, it seems plausible to n sense.

The Bow Group's estimate is not a fact either. The fullfact page did say that the 57 number should be more reliable.

A YouGov sample of Tory members will have an average age way below that of all members. Because the vast numbers of 80 and 90somethings who are members of the party won't be part of it. So we can reasonably surmise IMO that 57 is most likely a vast underestimate. Whether the true figure is as high as 72 is debateable, but attend any Tory party constituency event in the shires and it doesn't seem an unreasonable guess.

A glance at the audience at the Tory Conference suggests that there are very few people there under 60 - if they are representative of the wider membership it's hard to believe the average age is in the 50s.

I believe that the data on which the average age of 57 is based was collected in 2013 so it's quite old now, and, as has been said, is probably not accurate anyway.

This is rubbish, in 2015 and 2017 the age at which you were more likely to vote Tory than Labour was 35 and 47 respectively ie even now still under 50.

Yet somehow an average Tory member being 57 is impossible?

Pulpstar said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

People see through populist demagogues like Trump, Farage and Corbyn in the end. Interesting that Corbyn uses almost the exact phrases and words that Trump uses like "rigged".

Sanders is more Corbyn and Farage more Trump

Thats the way that Corbyn and his supporters would like to see it. In reality Corbyn is the British Trump. Sanders was no Corbyn. Sanders is much more intelligent and thoughtful than Corbyn. Corbyn, like Trump tries to appeal to people by empty demagoguery, using words like "rigged" Corbyn is very much the British Trump. If he ever gets power -and I doubt he will -he will end up as the most hated politician in the UK, just as Trump is going down in the same way.

You would be slagging off Sanders if you were in tbe USA I'm sure. If it matters he also used 'rigged', as have politicians of every stripe for ever.

Watch Trumps and Corbyn's speeches. Corbyn copies Trump's language and tactics exactly. Corbyn and Trump even use the "fake news" analogy and the concept that there is a media conspiracy against them.
Read the article in Labour's own New Statesman. Corbyn is no Sanders.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/02/no-bernie-sanders-not-america-s-jeremy-corbyn

Corbyn and Sanders aren't exactly the same, and are each a left-wing challenge to Third Way politics in different contexts - well blow me down and sign me up for Angela4Leader now.

Corbyn and Sanders are completely different as the Labour article shows. "Left wing" is a wide umbrella term. You may as well say that Stalin and Corbyn are each a challenge to the Establishment. And that is another thing that Corbynistas do: they try to present left wing politics as a binary choice between hard left Corbynism and third way right wing Blairism. What about traditional Labour which is neither of these, the Labour of John Smith and Harold Wilson>

US politics is to the right of UK politics (indeed almost every Western nation's politics) so hardly a surprise Corbyn is left of Sanders. That does not change the fact a Sanders nomination in 2020 would see the Democrats have their most leftwing nominee since McGovern, just as Corbyn is the most left-wing Labour leader since Foot.

Is Foot to the right of Corbyn ?

About the same. Though he did reluctantly back the Falklands War

anothernick said:

I believe that the data on which the average age of 57 is based was collected in 2013 so it's quite old now, and, as has been said, is probably not accurate anyway.

No, the data for that figure comes from a study done after the 2017 election.

Scott_P said:

It's pretty obvious the real reason TSE and Alastair Meeks are siding with the traitorous rebel scum

@Barristerblog: Those Tory rebels in full:
Grieve: barrister
Clarke: barrister
Soubry: barrister
Neill: barrister
Heald: barrister
Sandbach: barrister
Djanogly: solicitor
Morgan: solicitor
Hammond: banker
Wollaston: doctor
Allen: businesswoman

Come the revolution, FIRST on the list for inclusion in the agenda for debate by the subcommittee deciding which names should be put forward to the vote for going UP AGAINST THE WALL!!!

If you're on the same side of the argument as Nicky Morgan thats usually a bad place to be. Wonder if she still speaks to George Osborne every day for 'advice'.

HYUFD said:

HHemmelig said:

RobD said:

HHemmelig said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

David_Evershed said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CD13 said:

Mr Eagles,

You're a Tory voter. What do the Tories gain from the rebels' victory? The government is seen to be weaker, the EU negotiators gain confidence, and Jezza can crow about his victory.

The only explanation is the rebels believe they can influence things - in a bad way for Leave. I don't believe Soubry for one would ever vote to accept any deal which results in us leaving. Labour would be pleased to vote against and blame the splits in the Tory party for it.

If nothing else, they can delay things more.

if I were a fanatic Remainer, my cunning plan would be to rubbish our negotiations, complain it's all too difficult, make it as difficult as possible and hope with the media advantage to erode the will to leave.

I don't think I'd have the brass neck to claim it's all on behalf of democracy, though.

Mr Meeks is still in his Mr Hyde mode. Dr Jekyll may not return for some time.

I'm a Tory activist, and the rest of your post proceeds from a false premise.

Given the average age of Conservative members, is "activist" appropriate terminology anymore, excepting yourself of course?

Not that old chesnut.

The average age of Conservative Party members is 57 – four years older than Labour ones.

https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/

As you well know, that is an estimate, not a fact.

As it was concocted from a YouGov survey, it seems plausible to assume that it would have missed out the majority of the oldest armchair Tory party members.

Bow Group estimates suggested the average age was 72 and that does seem more in line with common sense.

The Bow Group's estimate is not a fact either. The fullfact page did say that the 57 number should be more reliable.

A YouGov sample of Tory members will have an average age way below that of all members. Because the vast numbers of 80 and 90somethings who are members of the party won't be part of it. So we can reasonably surmise IMO that 57 is most likely a vast underestimate. Whether the true figure is as high as 72 is debateable, but attend any Tory party constituency event in the shires and it doesn't seem an unreasonable guess.

Wrong. I attended a Tory policy forum in Loughton last night for local members and only 1 attendee was over 80 and 4 were under 30

Just 6 of you ;-)

HYUFD said:

HHemmelig said:

RobD said:

HHemmelig said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

David_Evershed said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CD13 said:

Mr Eagles,

You're a Tory voter. What do the Tories gain from the rebels' victory? The government is seen to be weaker, the EU negotiators gain confidence, and Jezza can crow about his victory.

The only explanation is the rebels believe they can influence things - in a bad way for Leave. I don't believe Soubry for one would ever vote to accept any deal which results in us leaving. Labour would be pleased to vote against and blame the splits in the Tory party for it.

If nothing else, they can delay things more.

if I were a fanatic Remainer, my cunning plan would be to rubbish our negotiations, complain it's all too difficult, make it as difficult as possible and hope with the media advantage to erode the will to leave.

I don't think I'd have the brass neck to claim it's all on behalf of democracy, though.

Mr Meeks is still in his Mr Hyde mode. Dr Jekyll may not return for some time.

I'm a Tory activist, and the rest of your post proceeds from a false premise.

Given the average age of Conservative members, is "activist" appropriate terminology anymore, excepting yourself of course?

Not that old chesnut.

The average age of Conservative Party members is 57 – four years older than Labour ones.

https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/

As you well know, that is an estimate, not a fact.

As it was concocted from a YouGov survey, it seems plausible to assume that it would have missed out the majority of the oldest armchair Tory party members.

Bow Group estimates suggested the average age was 72 and that does seem more in line with common sense.

The Bow Group's estimate is not a fact either. The fullfact page did say that the 57 number should be more reliable.

A YouGov sample of Tory members will have an average age way below that of all members. Because the vast numbers of 80 and 90somethings who are members of the party won't be part of it. So we can reasonably surmise IMO that 57 is most likely a vast underestimate. Whether the true figure is as high as 72 is debateable, but attend any Tory party constituency event in the shires and it doesn't seem an unreasonable guess.

Wrong. I attended a Tory policy forum in Loughton last night for local members and only 1 attendee was over 80 and 4 were under 30

Sorry I forgot to count you. n=6?

HYUFD said:

Pulpstar said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

People see through populist demagogues like Trump, Farage and Corbyn in the end. Interesting that Corbyn uses almost the exact phrases and words that Trump uses like "rigged".

Sanders is more Corbyn and Farage more Trump

Thats the way that Corbyn and his supporters would like to see it. In reality Corbyn is the British Trump. Sanders was no Corbyn. Sanders is much more intelligent and thoughtful than Corbyn. Corbyn, like Trump tries to appeal to people by empty demagoguery, using words like "rigged" Corbyn is very much the British Trump. If he ever gets power -and I doubt he will -he will end up as the most hated politician in the UK, just as Trump is going down in the same way.

You would be slagging off Sanders if you were in tbe USA I'm sure. If it matters he also used 'rigged', as have politicians of every stripe for ever.

Watch Trumps and Corbyn's speeches. Corbyn copies Trump's language and tactics exactly. Corbyn and Trump even use the "fake news" analogy and the concept that there is a media conspiracy against them.
Read the article in Labour's own New Statesman. Corbyn is no Sanders.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/02/no-bernie-sanders-not-america-s-jeremy-corbyn

Corbyn and Sanders aren't exactly the same, and are each a left-wing challenge to Third Way politics in different contexts - well blow me down and sign me up for Angela4Leader now.

Corbyn and Sanders are completely different as the Labour article shows. "Left wing" is a wide umbrella term. You may as well say that Stalin and Corbyn are each a challenge to the Establishment. And that is another thing that Corbynistas do: they try to present left wing politics as a binary choice between hard left Corbynism and third way right wing Blairism. What about traditional Labour which is neither of these, the Labour of John Smith and Harold Wilson>

US politics is to the right of UK politics (indeed almost every Western nation's politics) so hardly a surprise Corbyn is left of Sanders. That does not change the fact a Sanders nomination in 2020 would see the Democrats have their most leftwing nominee since McGovern, just as Corbyn is the most left-wing Labour leader since Foot.

Is Foot to the right of Corbyn ?

About the same. Though he did reluctantly back the Falklands War

Was it a war or a conflict ?

HYUFD said:

Pulpstar said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

Winstanley said:

stevef said:

HYUFD said:

stevef said:

People see through populist demagogues like Trump, Farage and Corbyn in the end. Interesting that Corbyn uses almost the exact phrases and words that Trump uses like "rigged".

Sanders is more Corbyn and Farage more Trump

Thats the way that Corbyn and his supporters would like to see it. In reality Corbyn is the British Trump. Sanders was no Corbyn. Sanders is much more intelligent and thoughtful than Corbyn. Corbyn, like Trump tries to appeal to people by empty demagoguery, using words like "rigged" Corbyn is very much the British Trump. If he ever gets power -and I doubt he will -he will end up as the most hated politician in the UK, just as Trump is going down in the same way.

You would be slagging off Sanders if you were in tbe USA I'm sure. If it matters he also used 'rigged', as have politicians of every stripe for ever.

Watch Trumps and Corbyn's speeches. Corbyn copies Trump's language and tactics exactly. Corbyn and Trump even use the "fake news" analogy and the concept that there is a media conspiracy against them.
Read the article in Labour's own New Statesman. Corbyn is no Sanders.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/02/no-bernie-sanders-not-america-s-jeremy-corbyn

Corbyn and Sanders aren't exactly the same, and are each a left-wing challenge to Third Way politics in different contexts - well blow me down and sign me up for Angela4Leader now.

Corbyn and Sanders are completely different as the Labour article shows. "Left wing" is a wide umbrella term. You may as well say that Stalin and Corbyn are each a challenge to the Establishment. And that is another thing that Corbynistas do: they try to present left wing politics as a binary choice between hard left Corbynism and third way right wing Blairism. What about traditional Labour which is neither of these, the Labour of John Smith and Harold Wilson>

US politics is to the right of UK politics (indeed almost every Western nation's politics) so hardly a surprise Corbyn is left of Sanders. That does not change the fact a Sanders nomination in 2020 would see the Democrats have their most leftwing nominee since McGovern, just as Corbyn is the most left-wing Labour leader since Foot.

Is Foot to the right of Corbyn ?

About the same. Though he did reluctantly back the Falklands War

I remember listening to Foot's speech on that Saturday morning in the House of Commons. He didn't sound remotely reluctant to me.

mwadams said:

kyf_100 said:

I wish to live under a democracy.
I do not believe the EU is democratic now, moreover I believe a federal superstate will dilute democracy further.
I am fond of my country and my culture, but most of all, I am fond of freedom - of living in a place where I get to hire and fire my masters and am part of a vital check and balance on them at the ballot box.
Based on the direction of travel in recent years, I fear that freedom will be taken away from me.
The UK has demonstrated, through institutions as you say that are five or six times older, a robust democracy with appropriate checks and balances on power. The EU has not.
Culturally, I consider myself British. But ideologically, I am a staunch believer in liberal democracy. The two are intertwined but separate. The UK happens to be a liberal democracy - the EU - less so.

Sure: that's a totally legitimate argument. I'm just saying that the position that we owe allegiance to one institution or another is a pragmatic one (in exactly the way you put it forward) not some absolutist principle based on accidents of birth and history.

Which brings us back to our point - are those who are working to actively subvert (to borrow SeanT's point) the referendum legitimately to be described as traitors? I agree you have to be incredibly careful about the use of the word.

To continue my communist analogy, there's nothing wrong with believing in communism, but there is in being British and actively passing secrets to the USSR.

The question hinges on whether or not we believe the aims of people like last night's rebels, Gina Miller and her court case, and so on, are honestly attempting to protect the integrity of our democracy - or whether or not they are looking through the rulebook to find any technicality or loophole they can to thwart and derail the result of a democratic vote.

If the latter, then there is a justifiable case for calling people actively engaging in such behaviour traitors. That is one point of view - that they are actively attempting to subvert democracy.

I'm not going to go that far myself - I like to think that they believe they are acting in the best interests of our country and our democracy, even if I vehemently disagree with them. I prefer the term "useful idiot". But YMMV.

However there is a legitimate case for using the word "traitor" to describe someone who is attempting to actively subvert democracy, in pursuit of the aims of a hostile foreign power, whether they believe they're doing it in the UK's best interests or not. Whether or not you believe that depends on what you think the intentions of the people doing the deed are.

I'm holding off on the use of the word for now. But I understand why others have not.