politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Damian Green’s computer is none of our business
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Damian Green’s computer is none of our business
Why would former policemen leak details of an investigation that didn’t result in a prosecution (never mind a conviction), which took place nine years ago and where the details were incidental to the alleged act being investigated?
Comments
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Pretty well agree with all of that.0
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Though, as has been pointed out in an earlier thread, it is just about conceivable (albeit unlikely) that the images could have gotten on his computer inadvertently - multiple tabs open, and he clicked on a link emailed by someone - so it's not an absolute given that someone is lying. Though it seems likely.0
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Oh, and third.0
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Second.
Yet he appears to have been dishonest.
And the argument that we need have no standards because it's "their business" and they are subject to election is absurd - particularly given our voting system with so many MPs well sheltered from normal electoral pressure.0 -
The British government has issued a fresh warning about the security risks of using Russian anti-virus software.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-422021910 -
True, and I didn't defend the actions of the officer. Attacking the failings of the officer doesn't however change the merits of whatever Green might have done and said.RobD said:
Even if he has (which isn't proven), that doesn't justify the actions of the police officer.IanB2 said:Second.
Yet he appears to have been dishonest.0 -
I concur with your view Nigelb. As David says, under these circumstances it isn't a sackable offence. Nor, in this case, do I think it appropriate for ex-Policemen to comment on what was found at that time. It does have the feel of Plebgate to it. Green shouldn't have done what is alleged on a work's computer but I'm afraid it reinforces my opinion of most politicians as individuals who are out of touch with the real world and I'll leave it at that.0
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Very disappointing start for England in the cricket.0
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I need another £80k a year, BECAUSE OF BREXIT...
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/dec/01/southampton-says-post-brexit-strategy-justifies-university-vcs-pay-of-4330000 -
ABC News on Friday evening corrected an explosive special report that aired in the morning saying that Donald Trump, as a candidate for president, had asked Michael Flynn to make contact with Russians.
During "World News Tonight," ABC News investigative reporter Brian Ross said the source who had provided the initial information for his story later told him that it was as president-elect, not as a candidate, that Trump asked Flynn to contact the Russians.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html
I believe there is a term for this....0 -
Why am I not surprised? No doubt caused by their desperation to see Trump out.FrancisUrquhart said:ABC News on Friday evening corrected an explosive special report that aired in the morning saying that Donald Trump, as a candidate for president, had asked Michael Flynn to make contact with Russians.
During "World News Tonight," ABC News investigative reporter Brian Ross said the source who had provided the initial information for his story later told him that it was as president-elect, not as a candidate, that Trump asked Flynn to contact the Russians.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html
I believe there is a term for this....0 -
Woozers,
Part of the memo focuses on targets that the LA ICE office believes to be of interest to DJI. "DJI's criteria for selecting accounts to target appears to focus on the account holder's ability to disrupt critical infrastructure," it said. The memo goes on to say that DJI is particularly interested in infrastructure like railroads and utilities, companies that provide drinking water as well as weapon storage facilities. The LA ICE office concludes that it, "assesses with high confidence the critical infrastructure and law enforcement entities using DJI systems are collecting sensitive intelligence that the Chinese government could use to conduct physical or cyber attacks against the United States and its population."
https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/30/homeland-security-claims-dji-drones-spying-china/0 -
The mainstream media are not doing themselves any favours. If anything they just strengthen Trump and his base, because they then have concrete examples of Fake News.RobD said:
Why am I not surprised? No doubt caused by their desperation to see Trump out.FrancisUrquhart said:ABC News on Friday evening corrected an explosive special report that aired in the morning saying that Donald Trump, as a candidate for president, had asked Michael Flynn to make contact with Russians.
During "World News Tonight," ABC News investigative reporter Brian Ross said the source who had provided the initial information for his story later told him that it was as president-elect, not as a candidate, that Trump asked Flynn to contact the Russians.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html
I believe there is a term for this....0 -
Can never have enough EU integration...
Martin Schulz, the leader of the rival Social Democrats (SPD), told an interview with Spiegel magazine he would insist on deeper integration as a condition of joining any new government under Mrs Merkel.
In particular, he said he would demand German support for Emmanuel Macron’s proposals for a Brussels-based finance minister and single budget for the Eurozone.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/01/merkel-faces-demand-eu-integration-price-end-government-crisis/0 -
Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.
Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored
We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks0 -
I read that the officer is under formal investigation by the directorate of professional standards.Charles said:Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.
Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored
We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks0 -
I’m not sure it matters, does it. The allegations have allowed newspapers to run stories in their usual form - misleading statements in inverted commas. The no smoke without fire enthusiasts, and there are many, will be out in force.RobD said:
I read that the officer is under formal investigation by the directorate of professional standards.Charles said:Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.
Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored
We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks
That ex-police have behaved in a way which is, on any objective basis, startling will be forgotten. Is it a police culture-thing or is it a one-off? One hopes the latter, one suspects the former.0 -
You are right, but hopefully he can be made an example out of so that others don't decide to repeat it.AnExileinD4 said:
I’m not sure it matters, does it. The allegations have allowed newspapers to run stories in their usual form - misleading statements in inverted commas. The no smoke without fire enthusiasts, and there are many, will be out in force.RobD said:
I read that the officer is under formal investigation by the directorate of professional standards.Charles said:Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.
Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored
We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks
That ex-police have behaved in a way which is, on any objective basis, startling will be forgotten. Is it a police culture-thing or is it a one-off? One hopes the latter, one suspects the former.0 -
Where would you recommend for watching porn?Charles said:Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.
Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored
We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks0 -
Imagine my surprise to discover that the Moggster has been hanging out with Steve Bannon, the charming far-right enabler of white supremacists. He’s getting more like the Tory version of Jeremy Corbyn every day.0
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Oh dear...the convicts have just run themselves out....snigger0
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I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.0
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Another excellent Saturday morning read from David Herdson. Whatever the motivations of the police officers involved - and it’s correct that they be investigated here- the media outlets need to understand that there a difference between what’s in the public interest and what the public might find interesting.0
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Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.SouthamObserver said:I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.
I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development0 -
Perhaps; perhaps not.SouthamObserver said:I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished ....
I suspect their might be more public sympathy for him than you suspect. The evidence against him (had he been an employee) would probably not have be accepted by an employment tribunal given that it is both tainted and a decade old. There was no victim in his case - and I think one must add that almost everyone lies about sex at some time.
So far little noted has been David Davis' threat to resign if Green is sacked.0 -
Not a bad start to the morning afternoon from the visitors.FrancisUrquhart said:Oh dear...the convicts have just run themselves out....snigger
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Anderson has been seen off by the Aussies. Next half hour will be critical.0
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Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.Charles said:
Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.SouthamObserver said:I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.
I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
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That wasn't the storyNigelb said:
Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.Charles said:
Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.SouthamObserver said:I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.
I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.
That's the emergence of a new faction0 -
There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
Why has Lewis surfaced now?
Someone is pulling strings somewhere.0 -
Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?
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I find it disturbing that it was the BBC which chose to run an interview with exPoliceman acting semi-legallly at best. Rather like their involvement in the Cliff Richard affair it leaves a nasty taste.0
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+1felix said:I find it disturbing that it was the BBC which chose to run an interview with exPoliceman acting semi-legallly at best. Rather like their involvement in the Cliff Richard affair it leaves a nasty taste.
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Putting the other side in and then seeing your bowlers not take any early wickets is not a good sign. We may all end up very glad BT is doing this Ashes series.Nigelb said:Anderson has been seen off by the Aussies. Next half hour will be critical.
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Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to QuickOldKingCole said:There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
Why has Lewis surfaced now?
Someone is pulling strings somewhere.0 -
500 or 600 for Australia in the 1st Innings?0
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I'm not entirely convinced, but interesting to see what develops.Charles said:
That wasn't the storyNigelb said:
Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.Charles said:
Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.SouthamObserver said:I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.
I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.
That's the emergence of a new faction
This is a pretty trenchant defense of Green (notably published in the Guardian):
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-vendetta-police
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Which half was legal? Theft or breach of confidentiality?felix said:I find it disturbing that it was the BBC which chose to run an interview with exPoliceman acting semi-legallly at best. Rather like their involvement in the Cliff Richard affair it leaves a nasty taste.
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Good piece. Very disturbing behaviour and no explanation justifying it so far has held up in my view.0
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Finally, Lewis changes his position in the course of his BBC interview. He starts off admitting that he can’t say that it was Green who accessed the pornography, before later telling the reporter he was in “no doubt whatsoever”. However, his conclusion drawn from his recollection of the pattern of access to the computer is wholly inconsistent with the normal pattern of an MP’s parliamentary life, particularly if you hold ministerial or shadow ministerial responsibility. We simply do not have time as we move from one meeting to the next to have hours to peruse leisure websites of whatever type. There are days when I do not have time to switch my desktop computer on, and computer access is by mobile devices on the run between competing engagements.Nigelb said:
I'm not entirely convinced, but interesting to see what develops.Charles said:
That wasn't the storyNigelb said:
Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.Charles said:
Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.SouthamObserver said:I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.
I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.
That's the emergence of a new faction
This is a pretty trenchant defense of Green (notably published in the Guardian):
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-vendetta-police
I have to say when I heard the plod talking about the computer use, I did think that sounds much more like the sort of activity one would see from a researcher / assistant than a member of the shadow cabinet.0 -
It's looking fairly awful. I was hoping the debutant Overton might sneak a wicket before they worked him out, but they are well set now. Warner looks hungry - and Smith is still to come.SouthamObserver said:
Putting the other side in and then seeing your bowlers not take any early wickets is not a good sign. We may all end up very glad BT is doing this Ashes series.Nigelb said:Anderson has been seen off by the Aussies. Next half hour will be critical.
It's now well over an innings since an English bowler took a wicket....and our spinner is playing injured.0 -
I have said this for ages now, England's 4 seam attack which is all right arm, all basically the same pace, if wickets don't fall early, they are always in for a very hard slog.Nigelb said:
It's looking fairly awful. I was hoping the debutant Overton might sneak a wicket before they worked him out, but they are well set now. Warner looks hungry - and Smith is still to come.SouthamObserver said:
Putting the other side in and then seeing your bowlers not take any early wickets is not a good sign. We may all end up very glad BT is doing this Ashes series.Nigelb said:Anderson has been seen off by the Aussies. Next half hour will be critical.
It's now well over an innings since an English bowler took a wicket....and our spinner is playing injured.0 -
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Is the effect of this going to be that it becomes impossible for May to sack Green over the harassment allegations... ?0
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The Damian Green story leads to the suspicion that neither the police nor the media have any concept of "inadmissable evidence". It is all evidence - however acquired. It is all fair game, to be used to hang a man's reputation by the neck until dead.
There are so many concerns in this case, starting from a weird political raid on offices in Westminster that should not have happened, simply to root out somebody in the opposition embarrassing the Governing Party. It goes through the subsequent grudge held by a senior member of that raid - for nearly a decade. It covers materials that, by all we can glean broke no law. But they would allegedly lead some police to feel let down that a public official was not holding to the highest possible decency requirements. An elected official. Who, despite best efforts to end their career, became a member of the Government. Well, that won't do. Won't do at all. We must take steps....
...to drag up the matter again with the media. When a media campaign which had suggested there were dozens of sexual predator MPs who were going to have to resign their seats looked greatly overblown and ran out of steam. But...but...but PORN! On a computer! In Westminster!
And it leads us right up to yesterday's grotesque parody of investigative journalism on 5Live, when somebody is asked questions live on air to help to end Green's career. Questions which, under any form of natural justice, should have been restricted to being asked by a criminal barrister in a court of law - and with the defendant's criminal barrister having a right to put a raft of issues raised through rigorous cross-examination.
If any member of the media had had to endure what green has endured, they would have had the benefit of a Panorama Special, to show how wretched the system was. But just imagine if Plod turned up at the Panorama offices because they had been doing an investigation that embarrassed the Government, took away their computers and found porn on them..... oh the outrage! I mean, we pay their wages through the tax of the Licence Fee. So all of it is admissable, Sir....0 -
So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.Charles said:
Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to QuickOldKingCole said:There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
Why has Lewis surfaced now?
Someone is pulling strings somewhere.0 -
Fair point - I'm no lawyer.AnExileinD4 said:
Which half was legal? Theft or breach of confidentiality?felix said:I find it disturbing that it was the BBC which chose to run an interview with exPoliceman acting semi-legallly at best. Rather like their involvement in the Cliff Richard affair it leaves a nasty taste.
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Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?OldKingCole said:
So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.Charles said:
Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to QuickOldKingCole said:There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
Why has Lewis surfaced now?
Someone is pulling strings somewhere.0 -
WIIIIICCCKKKKKEETTTTTTTTTTTTT says Sir Geoffrey.0
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I forget the details but I believe he was humiliated by Green suing him (or the Met) in 2006 and he was officially reprimanded as a result.OldKingCole said:
So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.Charles said:
Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to QuickOldKingCole said:There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
Why has Lewis surfaced now?
Someone is pulling strings somewhere.0 -
I think it wasn't until 2013 when he disclosed anti-terror strategy while walking up Downing Street ... but found he was given no political cover for which he blamed the 2008 issueRobD said:
Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?OldKingCole said:
So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.Charles said:
Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to QuickOldKingCole said:There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
Why has Lewis surfaced now?
Someone is pulling strings somewhere.0 -
The accusation seems to be that Green is a lying wanker.
I don't get the shock factor that those pushing this "revelation" think it is.0 -
Quick resigned because he was carrying secret documents in a way which meant they could be photographed with a long range lens. The documents related toi a planned anti-terror raid in Lancashire (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7991307.stm)RobD said:
Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?OldKingCole said:
So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.Charles said:
Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to QuickOldKingCole said:There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
Why has Lewis surfaced now?
Someone is pulling strings somewhere.
It was a while after the ‘Green Affair” and from the BBC report doesn’t sound as thoiugh there was any connection in people’s minds.0 -
Both Sky and bbc presenters yesterday were dire in their efforts to push the morality angle. Life for the average Jo gets increasingly difficult in the age of the moral backlash.0
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We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.
Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly.
....Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need0 -
Warner’s gone! Caught behind off Woakes.0
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+1Roger said:We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.
Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly. Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need0 -
Its a good job the new batsman in looks totally shit....but looks can be deceiving.OldKingCole said:Warner’s gone! Caught behind off Woakes.
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Makes one glad one isn’t in the public eye, doesn’t it.Roger said:We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.
Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly. Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need0 -
Yes it does. I know one or two who have been caught up in this madness not least DLT and the injustice of it is maddening.OldKingCole said:
Makes one glad one isn’t in the public eye, doesn’t it.Roger said:We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.
Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly. Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need0 -
Whatever one may think of their editorial stance, the Guardian have always been tenacious upholders of the standards and ethics of journalism. That they can see a politically motivated vendetta doesn’t speak well of the two policemen involved here.Nigelb said:
I'm not entirely convinced, but interesting to see what develops.Charles said:
That wasn't the storyNigelb said:
Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.Charles said:
Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.SouthamObserver said:I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.
I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.
That's the emergence of a new faction
This is a pretty trenchant defense of Green (notably published in the Guardian):
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-vendetta-police0 -
Thinking back to 40+ years ago ........Roger said:
Yes it does. I know one or two who have been caught up in this madness not least DLT and the injustice of it is maddening.OldKingCole said:
Makes one glad one isn’t in the public eye, doesn’t it.Roger said:We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.
Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly. Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need
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And surely everyone ever sent to Downing St. for a meeting knows about the photographers with 400mm lenses standing a dozen metres away across the road? From memory there’s been at least half a dozen people fired for showing their papers over the years.Charles said:
I think it wasn't until 2013 when he disclosed anti-terror strategy while walking up Downing Street ... but found he was given no political cover for which he blamed the 2008 issueRobD said:
Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?OldKingCole said:
So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.Charles said:
Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to QuickOldKingCole said:There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
Why has Lewis surfaced now?
Someone is pulling strings somewhere.0 -
They finally killed Obamacare!FrancisUrquhart said:US Senate passes sweeping tax overhaul bill
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-422051810 -
Good morning, everyone.
Spot on, Mr. Herdson.0 -
MPs vary enormously in how they tackle the jobs, and I'd think shadow ministers do too. I spent maybe 50% of my time on my computer,and certainly accessed leisure sites (no, not porn) from time to time to avoid going bonkers. I was an infrequent attender at all-party group, lobbying dinners, etc., and spent nearly no time socialising. Other MPs had different patterns - might be better or worse. I don't think any particular conclusions can be drawn from it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I have to say when I heard the plod talking about the computer use, I did think that sounds much more like the sort of activity one would see from a researcher / assistant than a member of the shadow cabinet.
I share some of the doubts about the behaviour of the police - in particular retaining the notes after leaving the Force and the readiness to go public. At the moment I'm not sure about the facts, and think that the Cabinet Office should be left to conclude their investigation without pressure from the public or others. If they found that the allegations were true, I do think it's a resignable matter, not so much because of the porn but because of the virulent attack on Quick and the flat denial. I don't agree that lying about it via a personal attack would have been justified. But that's just my personal view - not sure the public, who barely know who any of these people are, feel strongly one way or the other.0 -
Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?0
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For making a clumsy pass at a middle-aged political editor at a drunken party a decade and a half ago? He’s not Harvey Weinstein or Kevin Spacey.Nigelb said:Is the effect of this going to be that it becomes impossible for May to sack Green over the harassment allegations... ?
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Mr. Jonathan, Flavius Phocas ended up as emperor. Just because a thing happens doesn't mean it's good or just.0
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Yes - so either incompetent or deliberate leaking. Both sackable offences for someone in that role.Sandpit said:
And surely everyone ever sent to Downing St. for a meeting knows about the photographers with 400mm lenses standing a dozen metres away across the road? From memory there’s been at least half a dozen people fired for showing their papers over the years.Charles said:
I think it wasn't until 2013 when he disclosed anti-terror strategy while walking up Downing Street ... but found he was given no political cover for which he blamed the 2008 issueRobD said:
Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?OldKingCole said:
So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.Charles said:
Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to QuickOldKingCole said:There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
Why has Lewis surfaced now?
Someone is pulling strings somewhere.0 -
F1: sounds like Kubica may not be making a comeback after all:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42199674
Still possible, but not the slam dunk Williams was hoping for.0 -
This story has made me so angry that we could have footage of Green wanking alone at his desk and I’d stil say the police behaviour has not been warranted. He may well have behaved poorly, and there might have been appropriate actions to be taken, but this clear vendetta against him has involved some shady behaviour which, it is clear, those doing it hope to get away with by claiming public interest should he have to resign for something unrelated. Despicable. Good riddance to coppers like that, arrogant stains on the service.0
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We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.Jonathan said:Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?
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It was judged Mitchell probably did say pleb, but a police officer lied about being a public witness and the police federation lied about what he’d said to them, proven by audio recording, in an attempt to get him fired. As with Green, the actual offence has been superseded by the disgraceful actions of serving and ex officers breaching rules to seek the head of a minister. That should not stand.Jonathan said:Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?
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Wow. I actually agree with you.Roger said:We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.
Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly.
....Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need0 -
The real world? Porn on a work computer? No.Casino_Royale said:
We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.Jonathan said:Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?
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In the real world, virtually everyone lies about sex and virtually everyone watches porn. And I wouldn't believe those that said they didn't.Ally_B said:I concur with your view Nigelb. As David says, under these circumstances it isn't a sackable offence. Nor, in this case, do I think it appropriate for ex-Policemen to comment on what was found at that time. It does have the feel of Plebgate to it. Green shouldn't have done what is alleged on a work's computer but I'm afraid it reinforces my opinion of most politicians as individuals who are out of touch with the real world and I'll leave it at that.
Next.0 -
If that were sufficient reason to sack MPs.....RochdalePioneers said:The accusation seems to be that Green is a lying wanker.
I don't get the shock factor that those pushing this "revelation" think it is.0 -
Williams are in a bit of a pickle when it comes to their driver lineup for next season.Morris_Dancer said:F1: sounds like Kubica may not be making a comeback after all:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42199674
Still possible, but not the slam dunk Williams was hoping for.
Massa gave them an extra year, is past his best and was happy to retire.
Stroll brings something like £20m a year with him, so is an automatic choice.
Martini also bring £20m or thereabouts, and require a driver over 25 due to drink industry rules on using young people to promote their products.
Stroll is only 19, and other hopefuls Sergei Serotkin and Daniil Kvyat are also too young.
Robert Kubica is old enough, and would be a fairytale comeback but there’s doubts about his physical stamina over a season and a contractual problem to sort out over a seven-figure insurance payout he got after his injury (on the basis that he was permenantly unable to be an F1 driver).
That leaves my favourite for the job. Paul DiResta, current test driver who knows the team well, and is old enough and fit enough.0 -
It’s not for serving or ex police to resolve that is the key. Green actling like a cock or on his cock at work is not for them to police. If he’s done it it should have been looked into at the time and his constituents could make a judgement if they still wanted this guy to serve them. Taking police notes and settling scores to punish him is not on. It is not their job, and that people should wank at work, or misuse an official laptop, does not change that.Jonathan said:
The real world? Porn on a work computer? No.Casino_Royale said:
We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.Jonathan said:Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?
Anger at them does not mean what he did is right, if it’s true, but it is irrelevant to justifying their actions.0 -
Mr. Royale, I also agree entirely with Mr. Roger. Huzzah for blissful harmony returning to PB!
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Yes, that was my point.Sandpit said:
Whatever one may think of their editorial stance, the Guardian have always been tenacious upholders of the standards and ethics of journalism. That they can see a politically motivated vendetta doesn’t speak well of the two policemen involved here.Nigelb said:
I'm not entirely convinced, but interesting to see what develops.Charles said:
That wasn't the storyNigelb said:
Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.Charles said:
Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.SouthamObserver said:I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.
I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.
That's the emergence of a new faction
This is a pretty trenchant defense of Green (notably published in the Guardian):
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-vendetta-police
The Guardian (whatever one might think of the mildly ridiculous Toynbee et al) is an excellent publication. Granted it's a comment piece by a Tory MP, but notable that they published it.
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Mr. Sandpit, yeah, and I think he's a bit underrated as well. Hmm. Wonder if there's a market on it... to the betmobile!
Edited extra bit: not that I can see, alas.
Had reasonable success with such markets in the past but they don't go up very often.0 -
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/energy/2017/12/spark-energy-customers-chased-for-payment-by-debt-collectors-before-bills-are-due
Time to nationalise the energy companies. Put an end to this bullsh*t.
That's what 77% of the public wants.
Come on tories. Do it.
Take back control.0 -
I make no judgment on the allegations (or indeed May's prudery or otherwise) - and that he is not Weinstein is neither here nor there - I was merely remarking that this affair might tip the balance in his favour, should that be necessary.Sandpit said:
For making a clumsy pass at a middle-aged political editor at a drunken party a decade and a half ago? He’s not Harvey Weinstein or Kevin Spacey.Nigelb said:Is the effect of this going to be that it becomes impossible for May to sack Green over the harassment allegations... ?
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I couldn’t see any markets either. We both made money on Bottas to Mercedes last year IIRC, and you made a good longtermer on him being in the top 3 in 2017 before he was announced.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Sandpit, yeah, and I think he's a bit underrated as well. Hmm. Wonder if there's a market on it... to the betmobile!
Edited extra bit: not that I can see, alas.
Had reasonable success with such markets in the past but they don't go up very often.0 -
Agreed. There would have to be a very serious separate allegation against him for him to go now. The behaviour of the police officers has strengthened his position in the cabinet.Nigelb said:
I make no judgment on the allegations (or indeed May's prudery or otherwise) - and that he is not Weinstein is neither here nor there - I was merely remarking that this affair might tip the balance in his favour, should that be necessary.Sandpit said:
For making a clumsy pass at a middle-aged political editor at a drunken party a decade and a half ago? He’s not Harvey Weinstein or Kevin Spacey.Nigelb said:Is the effect of this going to be that it becomes impossible for May to sack Green over the harassment allegations... ?
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Mr. Sandpit, actually, I missed the boat on Bottas going to Mercedes (bit stupid of me) but did, as you indicate, get something for him being top 3. The odds of 26 were just stupid given he was something like 2-3 to go to Mercedes.
His odds of 16 or so remain oddly long. Hamilton's favourite to win the title, so his team mate being top 3, whilst not certain, is highly probable. The last time there was a major disparity, I think, between title-winner and team mate was Hamilton and Kovalainen[sp], and Bottas is a better driver than his countryman.0 -
Better regulation of debt collection would be a better starting point.Pong said:https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/energy/2017/12/spark-energy-customers-chased-for-payment-by-debt-collectors-before-bills-are-due
Time to nationalise the energy companies. Put an end to this bullsh*t.
That's what 77% of the public wants.
Come on tories. Do it.
Take back control.0 -
Police officers went to prison....Jonathan said:Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?
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That dropped catch in the cricket is going to be costly.0
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Not enough of them.FrancisUrquhart said:
Police officers went to prison....Jonathan said:Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?
Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.0 -
The idea that we know the full story is absurd. It gets messy when two part of establishment tear into one another. The best thing to do is watch, learn and try to fathom out the murky backstory.kle4 said:
It’s not for serving or ex police to resolve that is the key. Green actling like a cock or on his cock at work is not for them to police. If he’s done it it should have been looked into at the time and his constituents could make a judgement if they still wanted this guy to serve them. Taking police notes and settling scores to punish him is not on. It is not their job, and that people should wank at work, or misuse an official laptop, does not change that.Jonathan said:
The real world? Porn on a work computer? No.Casino_Royale said:
We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.Jonathan said:Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?
Anger at them does not mean what he did is right, if it’s true, but it is irrelevant to justifying their actions.
No white hats and black hats here.0 -
Equally as bad as maybe calling someone a pleb?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not enough of them.FrancisUrquhart said:
Police officers went to prison....Jonathan said:Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?
Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.0 -
We may not know the whole story yet (indeed, we still don’t know for certain what Green himself did or did not do), but that does not mean we do not know enough to know some ill behaviour has occured. Possibly by Green in terms of misusing resources. But certainly by these officers - the very fact of their disclosures confirms that ill behaviour, we don’t need to know the whole story to know that.Jonathan said:
The idea that we know the full story is absurd. It gets messy when two part of establishment tear into one another. The best thing to do is watch, learn and try to fathom out the murky backstory.kle4 said:
It’s not for serving or ex police to resolve that is the key. Green actling like a cock or on his cock at work is not for them to police. If he’s done it it should have been looked into at the time and his constituents could make a judgement if they still wanted this guy to serve them. Taking police notes and settling scores to punish him is not on. It is not their job, and that people should wank at work, or misuse an official laptop, does not change that.Jonathan said:
The real world? Porn on a work computer? No.Casino_Royale said:
We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.Jonathan said:Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?
Anger at them does not mean what he did is right, if it’s true, but it is irrelevant to justifying their actions.
No white hats and black hats here.0 -
That was absolutely shocking. A politician being a rude arsehole was totally insignificant in comparison.Richard_Tyndall said:
Not enough of them.FrancisUrquhart said:
Police officers went to prison....Jonathan said:Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?
Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.
If they are willing to fit up a powerful person over something so trivial, mind boggles when it comes to random members of the public. Back to the days of the west midlands serious crime squad.0 -
That truly was terrible. Even when confronted with the evidence of their lie, they no doubt think they did the right thing because they got their man (I recall the circumstances quite clearly in that they said he claimed he did not say pleb but wouldn’t explain what he did say, and he had to resign, when the recording provided he had provided them an explanation of what, in his recollection, he had said - that it was ruled in the end probable he had said pleb eventhough he denied it, in no way excuses a bald faced lie as part of a campaign to get him sacked. Poor behaviour is not made better by others acting even worse)Richard_Tyndall said:
Not enough of them.FrancisUrquhart said:
Police officers went to prison....Jonathan said:Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?
Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.0
