So if we don't pay the EU tribute they won't even let our planes take off.
Sounds almost like an act of war doesn't it?
Almost. If I were PM I’d suggest publicly that the money issue be referred to an international court of arbitration then we get on with the trade talks. If the EU won’t agree, then we walk away now and start preparing to leave the EU at the end of March 2019.
We are where we are because we voted to leave the European Union on the back of a campaign in which voters were told there were no downsides to exit. The problem is entirely political and it is about the Conservative party being unable to accept that there are, of course, considerable costs associated with Brexit. We are faced with one now: we can pay the money the EU wants in order to secure a friendly departure and kick-start trade talks, or we can walk away and inflict significant, long-term harm on ourselves. Neither was an option the voters were presented with in June 2016. But they are the only two on the table and were only ever going to be the two available. It turns out that they are not desperate for a deal and we do not hold all the cards. Whoever would have thought it?
Does it not bother you at all how unreasonable and hostile the EU are acting in not even coming to the table and negotiating anything unless we pay them a load of money?
What would a reasonable organisation that appreciates the massive payments the UK has made over the last 40 years do in this situation? Not this. They want to do as much damage to the UK as possible and thank fuck people like that are eventually not going to hold this power over us.
They want what they feel is best for the EU given our decision to leave. I do not think £50 billion is a huge sum compared to the damage the alternative will do. And I think we got our money's worth from being in the EU.
Yes because I'm sure that all the people doing that have decided to write a cheque to HMRC over and above their due taxes. Who indeed are the hypocrites?
As I implied, it's a free country. If someone who spends a large amount of money on tax advice to avoid paying an even larger amount of tax wanted to call me a hypocrite for not firing off random cheques to HMRC, I'd try and not get too snowflakey about it.
So if we don't pay the EU tribute they won't even let our planes take off.
Sounds almost like an act of war doesn't it?
Almost. If I were PM I’d suggest publicly that the money issue be referred to an international court of arbitration then we get on with the trade talks. If the EU won’t agree, then we walk away now and start preparing to leave the EU at the end of March 2019.
We are where we are because we voted to leave the European Union on the back of a campaign in which voters were told there were no downsides to exit. The problem is entirely political and it is about the Conservative party being unable to accept that there are, of course, considerable costs associated with Brexit. We are faced with one now: we can pay the money the EU wants in order to secure a friendly departure and kick-start trade talks, or we can walk away and inflict significant, long-term harm on ourselves. Neither was an option the voters were presented with in June 2016. But they are the only two on the table and were only ever going to be the two available. It turns out that they are not desperate for a deal and we do not hold all the cards. Whoever would have thought it?
Does it not bother you at all how unreasonable and hostile the EU are acting in not even coming to the table and negotiating anything unless we pay them a load of money?
What would a reasonable organisation that appreciates the massive payments the UK has made over the last 40 years do in this situation? Not this. They want to do as much damage to the UK as possible and thank fuck people like that are eventually not going to hold this power over us.
They want what they feel is best for the EU given our decision to leave. I do not think £50 billion is a huge sum compared to the damage the alternative will do. And I think we got our money's worth from being in the EU.
You may be surprised but I do not disagree with that
TM was a remainer and will do a deal with the EU. It pays the remainers to paint the conservative party as hard Brexiteers but in truth the conservative party are above all else practical and will not take us off the edge. That is simply unacceptable.
Do you really think European air space will close down on 30th March 2019 with all UK planes prevented from flying in European air space and we stop all over flying of the UK
Still the fantasy persists that even if Brexit is "bad", it won't be "that bad"
There is no evidence that TMay will get any sort of deal, and without a deal planes will be grounded.
At what point will reality finally dawn in Brexitland?
Extreme Remainer's are to be classed with hard Brexiteers.
So the EU is extorting money from the UK under menaces and everyone on here seems to think that's fine and dandy because we deserve to be punished for daring to leave the utopia of the EU.
Pathetic.
The UK still has a lot of weight, I don't think the government should be taking this lying down at all. Trump was talking about leaving NATO, maybe if we started making noises in that direction and setting up an alternative alliance with the US then that I imagine the "rule of law" won't be so important when they've got Russia looming to their East.
We have choices. We could do as you suggest or we can do the sensible thing that is in our interest. GIven we have the choice and no-one says we don't, talk of extorting money under menaces is ridiculous.
Drivel. They won't even agree to basic stuff that they have with loads of countries outside the EU who didn't have to pay them £50bn. That is THEIR choice to impose this on us and ONLY us. You seem to be able to forgive/ignore the behaviour of the EU in this situation whilst piling all the blame on the UK for following the will of the majority of the people in the country.
It's like saying when confronted with a mugger you have a choice to hand over your wallet and be happy about it or get stabbed in the chest. No mention of who is the aggressor in this situation or the fact that you have a gun pointed at them under your jacket you could use instead.
Erm, Brexit was a British decision. The EU isn't forcing Britain to do anything.
You might argue that the EU is being shortsighted and bureaucratic (I would). Arguing that it is acting as a mugger when it is only reacting to British actions is demented.
Mealy mouthed rubbish.
The fact that Brexit is a British decision has nothing to do with the EU acting hostile and refusing to agree to things that would even allow air travel. They could easily do that regardless of our decision. It's a choice they have consciously made, you're acting like they are a computer that is merely following a program with inevitable consequences.
No they have a choice to be aggressive and difficult or reasonable to their allies and neighbours and they are choosing the former and no amount of pathetic bleating about how it is all our fault for leaving the EU (you obviously think we deserve to be punished for leaving) can gloss over that..
I suppose most of us have an idea of what is legitimate tax avoidance, and what is taking the piss, but where does one draw the line?
There's a handy guide on HMRC
Tax planning is using a tax relief in the manner in which it was intended - i.e. saving money in an ISA Tax avoidance is a contrived use of one or more tax relief's to subvert it's intended usage - i.e creating a series of circular transactions that produces no economic output expected to return the original sums of money to their original owners with a tax relief gained.
It's why the GAAR looks at intent more than just the strict letter of the law.
Yes because I'm sure that all the people doing that have decided to write a cheque to HMRC over and above their due taxes. Who indeed are the hypocrites?
As I implied, it's a free country. If someone who spends a large amount of money on tax advice to avoid paying an even larger amount of tax wanted to call me a hypocrite for not firing off random cheques to HMRC, I'd try and not get too snowflakey about it.
It's just the illogicality that gets me.
One side is obeying the law, the other side is criticising that first side for not contributing over and above what the law says they must contribute. As mentioned to @Southam, that way absurdity lies.
So the EU is extorting money from the UK under menaces and everyone on here seems to think that's fine and dandy because we deserve to be punished for daring to leave the utopia of the EU.
Pathetic.
The UK still has a lot of weight, I don't think the government should be taking this lying down at all. Trump was talking about leaving NATO, maybe if we started making noises in that direction and setting up an alternative alliance with the US then that I imagine the "rule of law" won't be so important when they've got Russia looming to their East.
We have choices. We could do as you suggest or we can do the sensible thing that is in our interest. GIven we have the choice and no-one says we don't, talk of extorting money under menaces is ridiculous.
Drivel. They won't even agree to basic stuff that they have with loads of countries outside the EU who didn't have to pay them £50bn. That is THEIR choice to impose this on us and ONLY us. You seem to be able to forgive/ignore the behaviour of the EU in this situation whilst piling all the blame on the UK for following the will of the majority of the people in the country.
It's like saying when confronted with a mugger you have a choice to hand over your wallet and be happy about it or get stabbed in the chest. No mention of who is the aggressor in this situation or the fact that you have a gun pointed at them under your jacket you could use instead.
Erm, Brexit was a British decision. The EU isn't forcing Britain to do anything.
You might argue that the EU is being shortsighted and bureaucratic (I would). Arguing that it is acting as a mugger when it is only reacting to British actions is demented.
Mealy mouthed rubbish.
The fact that Brexit is a British decision has nothing to do with the EU acting hostile and refusing to agree to things that would even allow air travel. They could easily do that regardless of our decision. It's a choice they have consciously made, you're acting like they are a computer that is merely following a program with inevitable consequences.
No they have a choice to be aggressive and difficult or reasonable to their allies and neighbours and they are choosing the former and no amount of pathetic bleating about how it is all our fault for leaving the EU (you obviously think we deserve to be punished for leaving) can gloss over that..
Wipe the spittle out of your eyes and learn to read. I have already twice on this thread criticised the EU's handling of this. I simply don't agree with your mad assertion that they are acting in a belligerent way. Bureaucratic, yes. Shortsighted, yes. Tantamount to declaration of war? You need to up the dosage of your meds.
.... The question is therefore whether the government is right to implement the decision of the referendum and if so, how. ...
... To my mind, a hard Brexit is the only responsible course, despite the damage it will do. The simple reason is that to do otherwise will so undermine trust in democracy as to put the links that bind society together at risk. If the country takes a decision - even a crap one - then it is entitled to see it implemented. It can then judge for itself how crap the decision was and, if it wants, take steps to reverse it. But for others to reverse it on its behalf without asking it would be to render their vote worthless and their voice worthless: what then would be their response? Likewise, to implement the measure in name but without addressing in a meaningful sense any of the grievances that drove the decision would again produce that same sense of powerlessness.
To go down that road would risk the defection of a substantial portion of the electorate to movements more extreme than have governed Britain in centuries. ...
A well argued post but you elide over the tiny word, it, and assume the it of the referendum decision must necessarily be Hard Brexit. I disagree. The government is obliged to find the best arrangement for the UK that is consistent with the simple decision to leave the European Union. If it is unable to find a good arrangement, I think it is morally obliged to come back to the electorate, tell them so, and see if they want to continue. I don't think the electorate - on the whole (there will always be differences of opinion) - would forgive the Conservative government if they failed to do so. The electorate would be absolutely right in that case.
Cut to the chase. The Conservatives need to make a success of Brexit.
The interesting thing aboutbthat thread is it clearly indicates that there is a way forward for Britain to start the process without a disorderly and chaotic exit.
And yet our leaders are determined not to take it.........
Puzzling and worrying.
In fairness, the EU are approaching it on the basis that they set the rules (and are then perplexed that Britain might disagree). The idea that the EU's own rules, including its recently-concocted rules for handling Brexit, might be illogical and self-defeating has apparently not occurred to them.
So the EU is extorting money from the UK under menaces and everyone on here seems to think that's fine and dandy because we deserve to be punished for daring to leave the utopia of the EU.
.
We have choices. We could do as you suggest or we can do the sensible thing that is in our interest. GIven we have the choice and no-one says we don't, talk of extorting money under menaces is ridiculous.
Drivel. They won't even agree to basic stuff that they have with loads of countries outside the EU who didn't have to pay them £50bn. That is THEIR choice to impose this on us and ONLY us. You seem to be able to forgive/ignore the behaviour of the EU in this situation whilst piling all the blame on the UK for following the will of the majority of the people in the country.
It's like saying when confronted with a mugger you have a choice to hand over your wallet and be happy about it or get stabbed in the chest. No mention of who is the aggressor in this situation or the fact that you have a gun pointed at them under your jacket you could use instead.
Erm, Brexit was a British decision. The EU isn't forcing Britain to do anything.
You might argue that the EU is being shortsighted and bureaucratic (I would). Arguing that it is acting as a mugger when it is only reacting to British actions is demented.
Mealy mouthed rubbish.
The fact that Brexit is a British decision has nothing to do with the EU acting hostile and refusing to agree to things that would even allow air travel. They could easily do that regardless of our decision. It's a choice they have consciously made, you're acting like they are a computer that is merely following a program with inevitable consequences.
No they have a choice to be aggressive and difficult or reasonable to their allies and neighbours and they are choosing the former and no amount of pathetic bleating about how it is all our fault for leaving the EU (you obviously think we deserve to be punished for leaving) can gloss over that..
Wipe the spittle out of your eyes and learn to read. I have already twice on this thread criticised the EU's handling of this. I simply don't agree with your mad assertion that they are acting in a belligerent way. Bureaucratic, yes. Shortsighted, yes. Tantamount to declaration of war? You need to up the dosage of your meds.
You don't think they are being belligerent? Ah so they are open to talks on an agreement stopping our transport system grinding to a halt without us paying them a load of money first.
TM was a remainer and will do a deal with the EU. It pays the remainers to paint the conservative party as hard Brexiteers but in truth the conservative party are above all else practical and will not take us off the edge. That is simply unacceptable.
Do you really think European air space will close down on 30th March 2019 with all UK planes prevented from flying in European air space and we stop all over flying of the UK
Still the fantasy persists that even if Brexit is "bad", it won't be "that bad"
There is no evidence that TMay will get any sort of deal, and without a deal planes will be grounded.
At what point will reality finally dawn in Brexitland?
Extreme Remainer's are to be classed with hard Brexiteers.
You are both as bad as each other
The remainers' programme is much less expensive.
Maybe but who knows - the one thing that is not in doubt is that we must leave to fulfill democracy
.... The question is therefore whether the government is right to implement the decision of the referendum and if so, how. ...
... To my mind, a hard Brexit is the only responsible course, despite the damage it will do. The simple reason is that to do otherwise will so undermine trust in democracy as to put the links that bind society together at risk. If the country takes a decision - even a crap one - then it is entitled to see it implemented. It can then judge for itself how crap the decision was and, if it wants, take steps to reverse it. But for others to reverse it on its behalf without asking it would be to render their vote worthless and their voice worthless: what then would be their response? Likewise, to implement the measure in name but without addressing in a meaningful sense any of the grievances that drove the decision would again produce that same sense of powerlessness.
To go down that road would risk the defection of a substantial portion of the electorate to movements more extreme than have governed Britain in centuries. ...
A well argued post but you elide over the tiny word, it, and assume the it of the referendum decision must necessarily be Hard Brexit. I disagree. The government is obliged to find the best arrangement for the UK that is consistent with the simple decision to leave the European Union. If it is unable to find a good arrangement, I think it is morally obliged to come back to the electorate, tell them so, and see if they want to continue. I don't think the electorate - on the whole (there will always be differences of opinion) - would forgive the Conservative government if they failed to do so. The electorate would be absolutely right in that case.
Cut to the chase. The Conservatives need to make a success of Brexit.
Williamson might get the gig because everybody else is either involved in scandal or just buggering everything up so badly.
Not a pretty state of affairs.
The BBC's still trying to make a song and dance about rich people using legitimate means to pay less tax. I still don't care at all.
Definitely a need to promote some new blood and bring some of the next generation into senior positions. The cabinet is looking very old and stale.
The way we get the rich to pay more tax is to make it attractive to do so, not by levying punitive rates. No-one who spends 10 months of the year travelling around the world is going to base themselves somewhere with a 47% income tax rate. The way to get large companies selling services (Google) to pay taxes is with international agreement. Just as well we’ll be getting back our seat on the WTO in 2019.
The left see high tax (especially for the wealthy) as a moral issue; and in so doing demonstrate their complete inability to understand human nature as wel as how economics works in practice.
What's the quote from that famous 90s judgement on tax, again?
But, funnily enough, high tax countries are consistently rated among the best places on earth to live.
The right likes to lecture the left on patriotism, while demonstrating its own patriotism by hiding away money that can never be spent just so that some of it is not redistributed to the poorest and most vulnerable in society.
Well said.
The idea that you cannot be patriotic if you follow tax laws just because someone else thinks you should not avail yourself of legal entitlements is absurd and dangerous.
It would be like me criticising people for putting their savings into ISAs rather than allow them to be taxed at their highest marginal rate for the benefit of others.
And high tax is not the issue. It is how well that tax money is spent. I have no issue with paying tax if I see the money well spent. I have a very big issue with paying tax and seeing it wasted, pissed away and generally spent on vanity projects and useless white elephants.
How far up shit creek ( a creek of mostly his own shit) must Boris be if he needs Liam Fix to come up with an exculpation this morning? I'd hope that might give Johnson pause for thought, but a hope destined to be dashed I fear.
Boris can do as he wishes. May has made clear he is unsackable. The same applies to Priti Patel. This is the worst government in modern British history. The Tories may well win the next general election. If they don't Jeremy Corbyn will be Prime Minister. You are better off out of it. Pray for your English cousins!
I now don't think they will win the next election. They're now in a more perilous state than Major's was in 1996. After the Patel incident and the latest of the Boris clangers without a sacking on the horizon there can only be the cultists among the Tory supporters (see Charles's earlier post) who are still on board.
How far up shit creek ( a creek of mostly his own shit) must Boris be if he needs Liam Fix to come up with an exculpation this morning? I'd hope that might give Johnson pause for thought, but a hope destined to be dashed I fear.
Boris can do as he wishes. May has made clear he is unsackable. The same applies to Priti Patel. This is the worst government in modern British history. The Tories may well win the next general election. If they don't Jeremy Corbyn will be Prime Minister. You are better off out of it. Pray for your English cousins!
I now don't think they will win the next election. They're now in a more perilous state than Major's was in 1996. After the Patel incident and the latest of the Boris clangers without a sacking on the horizon there can only be the cultists among the Tory supporters (see Charles's earlier post) who are still on board.
I'm spending longer each day wondering why I'm still in the Tory party.
I'm irritated by the party's incompetence and political correctness, but see them as better than the alternative.
For since whenever, I (and many other Tories) have been banging on that Labour will be/is bad for the economy, and yet the Tory party are about to instigate the greatest act of economic terrorism I can recall via hard/WTO Brexit.
It is shaking my core values.
Soon I expect cats to chase dogs on this Bizarro world I'm on.
Because there are two strands of conservatism - the political and the economic.
At present they are in conflict while for the last 40 years they haven't been.
I have confidence in the ability of our country folk to reinvent themselves, but it is a change which involves risk.
But they voted to take that risk because they saw the long term future as being brighter outside the EU.
If you are not willing to compromise on the economic risk to achieve the political objectives perhaps you are not a complete match for the conservatives? If that's the case then you need to figure out where you sit on the spectrum of activist - member - supporter - voter - nothing. It doesn't have to be the same place throughout your life (I started as a member, moved to supporter and now oscillate between supporter and voter)
That's a very interesting post and goes some way to explaining to those of us not of the persuasion why otherwise normal people choose to embrace the faith. It could just as easily have been written in 1817 as 2017. Somewhere between activist and member It's a cult no less bewildering than the Masons. It explains why the likes of John Redwood IDS and J R-M are revered. God help us if we have to suffer a reinvention for the sake of THEIR 'political objectives'
A good observation. The Q arising from Charles's post is since when was it the business of Conservatives to be risking the economy for other objectives?
Because we elect national leaders, not economic managers.
Williamson might get the gig because everybody else is either involved in scandal or just buggering everything up so badly.
Not a pretty state of affairs.
The BBC's still trying to make a song and dance about rich people using legitimate means to pay less tax. I still don't care at all.
Definitely a need to promote some new blood and bring some of the next generation into senior positions. The cabinet is looking very old and stale.
The way we get the riceat on the WTO in 2019.
The left see high tax (especially for the wealthy) as a moral issue; and in so doing demonstrate their complete inability to understand human nature as wel as how economics works in practice.
What's the quote from that famous 90s judgement on tax, again?
But, funnily enough, high tax countries are consistently rated among the best places on earth to live.
The right likes to lecture the left on patriotism, while demonstrating its own patriotism by hiding away money that can never be spent just so that some of it is not redistributed to the poorest and most vulnerable in society.
This argument on tax is so full of hypocrisy you couldn't make it up.
The BBC pension funds, the Guardian, the Labour Party HQ, John McDonnell and most everyone with an ISA or pension use tax havens.
This is a matter for International law and the OECD to control
There is a to care so deeply about.
You XX + 5)%?
Follow love.
No patriot?
You can claim to be a patriot while hiding away money you can never hope to spend to prevent it being used in the country you profess to love, of course.
Huh? You're going to hit your deathbed penniless?
That's a pretty prescriptive set of standards you want to hold him to there, fella.
Even, even if there was any logic or sense or moral imperative of doing as you suggest, how on earth would you draw up a law which enforces it?
I am not calling for a law that prevents people from calling themselves patriots. I just don't think it's very patriotic to actively plan to keep money you can never hope to spend away from people who need it in a country that you claim to care deeply about.
How far up shit creek ( a creek of mostly his own shit) must Boris be if he needs Liam Fix to come up with an exculpation this morning? I'd hope that might give Johnson pause for thought, but a hope destined to be dashed I fear.
Boris can do as he wishes. May has made clear he is unsackable. The same applies to Priti Patel. This is the worst government in modern British history. The Tories may well win the next general election. If they don't Jeremy Corbyn will be Prime Minister. You are better off out of it. Pray for your English cousins!
I now don't think they will win the next election. They're now in a more perilous state than Major's was in 1996. After the Patel incident and the latest of the Boris clangers without a sacking on the horizon there can only be the cultists among the Tory supporters (see Charles's earlier post) who are still on board.
I want neither the Tories nor Corbyn’s Labour.
I think there are a lot of us who feel like that. But like it or not we're going to be landed with one or the other. Up till a month or so ago I'd have abstained (voted Lib Dem or Green) marginally hoping May would get in because I don't trust Corbyn's or his team.
Now I'm of the opinion that however crap they turn out to be they couldn't be worse.
Williamson might get the gig because everybody else is either involved in scandal or just buggering everything up so badly.
Not a pretty state of affairs.
The BBC's still trying to make a song and dance about rich people using legitimate means to pay less tax. I still don't care at all.
Definitely a need to promote some new blood and bring some of the next generation into senior positions. The cabinet is looking very old and stale.
The way we get the rich to pay more tax is to make it attractive to do so, not by levying punitive rates. No-one who spends 10 months of the year travelling around the world is going to base themselves somewhere with a 47% income tax rate. The way to get large companies selling services (Google) to pay taxes is with international agreement. Just as well we’ll be getting back our seat on the WTO in 2019.
The left see high tax (especially for the wealthy) as a moral issue; and in so doing demonstrate their complete inability to understand human nature as wel as how economics works in practice.
What's the quote from that famous 90s judgement on tax, again?
But, funnily enough, high tax countries are consistently rated among the best places on earth to live.
The right likes to lecture the left on patriotism, while demonstrating its own patriotism by hiding away money that can never be spent just so that some of it is not redistributed to the poorest and most vulnerable in society.
As I have said before, the Labour Party needs saving from the deluded Cult of Corbyn. It used to be thought that electoral defeat would destroy the Labour Party, but now it is clear that a Corbyn government brought about by a Brexit default would be the end of the party and lead to a long electoral domination by the Conservatives.
To save the Labour Party for True Labour it is necessary for the Tories to win in 2022. It cannot do so under May or the Tory Old Gang. A younger Tory who can reinvent the party like Williamson -or another -could win the next election-and save the Labour party.
Comments
The fact that Brexit is a British decision has nothing to do with the EU acting hostile and refusing to agree to things that would even allow air travel. They could easily do that regardless of our decision. It's a choice they have consciously made, you're acting like they are a computer that is merely following a program with inevitable consequences.
No they have a choice to be aggressive and difficult or reasonable to their allies and neighbours and they are choosing the former and no amount of pathetic bleating about how it is all our fault for leaving the EU (you obviously think we deserve to be punished for leaving) can gloss over that..
Tax planning is using a tax relief in the manner in which it was intended - i.e. saving money in an ISA
Tax avoidance is a contrived use of one or more tax relief's to subvert it's intended usage - i.e creating a series of circular transactions that produces no economic output expected to return the original sums of money to their original owners with a tax relief gained.
It's why the GAAR looks at intent more than just the strict letter of the law.
One side is obeying the law, the other side is criticising that first side for not contributing over and above what the law says they must contribute. As mentioned to @Southam, that way absurdity lies.
Cut to the chase. The Conservatives need to make a success of Brexit.
Both sides are handling this abysmally.
That's a relief.
It would be like me criticising people for putting their savings into ISAs rather than allow them to be taxed at their highest marginal rate for the benefit of others.
And high tax is not the issue. It is how well that tax money is spent. I have no issue with paying tax if I see the money well spent. I have a very big issue with paying tax and seeing it wasted, pissed away and generally spent on vanity projects and useless white elephants.
NEW THREAD
Now I'm of the opinion that however crap they turn out to be they couldn't be worse.
To save the Labour Party for True Labour it is necessary for the Tories to win in 2022. It cannot do so under May or the Tory Old Gang. A younger Tory who can reinvent the party like Williamson -or another -could win the next election-and save the Labour party.