politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why people voted the way they did on Brexit and the huge gulf
Comments
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Sorry, I'm probably being incredibly dense here, but I've read that several times and can't see what's wrong with it. Help!Sandpit said:
LOL. Their proof readers are as good as their candidate selection team.TheScreamingEagles said:
Surely everyone here who sends out important documents has someone (or two) who hasn’t seen it before read it before the big red button gets pressed??0 -
LEAVE 52%
REMAIN 48%
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Nah, like John Redwood, he'll tell the OBR to come up with more optimistic forecastsydoethur said:
By increasing borrowing sixfold?foxinsoxuk said:I worry rather more about debt than tax rises, but McDonnell seems sound on this too.
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I didn't realise his views had mellowed so much as he agedTheScreamingEagles said:
Want to feel old? This is what Eminem looks like today.ydoethur said:Didn't realise he was Mohammed Sarwar's son. That really does make me feel old.
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He wants to take money from the many (hard working families) and give to the few (the rich elite who pay little or no tax)Stark_Dawning said:
Sorry, I'm probably being incredibly dense here, but I've read that several times and can't see what's wrong with it. Help!Sandpit said:
LOL. Their proof readers are as good as their candidate selection team.TheScreamingEagles said:
Surely everyone here who sends out important documents has someone (or two) who hasn’t seen it before read it before the big red button gets pressed??0 -
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We shall have to wait for his first budget to find outydoethur said:
By increasing borrowing sixfold?foxinsoxuk said:I worry rather more about debt than tax rises, but McDonnell seems sound on this too.
Off out now, meeting Fox jr for a drink.0 -
Brexitmeansbrexit to win at 30-1? That's a more optimistic forecast. It might even happen!TheScreamingEagles said:
Nah, like John Redwood, he'll tell the OBR to come up with more optimistic forecastsydoethur said:
By increasing borrowing sixfold?foxinsoxuk said:I worry rather more about debt than tax rises, but McDonnell seems sound on this too.
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It says redistribute wealthStark_Dawning said:
Sorry, I'm probably being incredibly dense here, but I've read that several times and can't see what's wrong with it. Help!Sandpit said:
LOL. Their proof readers are as good as their candidate selection team.TheScreamingEagles said:
Surely everyone here who sends out important documents has someone (or two) who hasn’t seen it before read it before the big red button gets pressed??
“from the many, to the few.”
Should read
“from the few, to the many”0 -
O/T
West Ham were 2-0 down to Tottenham. Now 3-2 to West Ham with 20 mins to go.0 -
You're right, it might be tenfold. That wasn't a joke, sadly.foxinsoxuk said:
We shall have to wait for his first budget to find outydoethur said:
By increasing borrowing sixfold?foxinsoxuk said:I worry rather more about debt than tax rises, but McDonnell seems sound on this too.
Off out now, meeting Fox jr for a drink.
Enjoy your drink.0 -
I'm not sure the US would have been very interested in us in the 80's/90's.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, we would also have been sucked deeper into an unsatisfactory relationship with the US, feeling increasingly like its medieval theme park. The 51stState-Sceptic movement would have expanded and flourished during the 1980s and 1990s reaching it's apogee with the election of Donald Trump. The ensuing referendum for throwing off the American yoke would have been won handsomely by the Euro-ites.Pong said:
Nah. Our relative economic drag vs developed europe would have guaranteed we joined eventually. Revenues from north sea oil in the 80's might have delayed the inevitable but by the 1990's the voters would had had enough. Europhilia would have been an integral part of the new labour revival.Casino_Royale said:
I think an awful lot of the Remain case is simply institutional inertia as a function of us already being in it.Sean_F said:
It should not be the job of our educational system to make the EU's case for it.Fenman said:What have we learnt from this? That Brexit voters really didn't have a clue what the EU does and what the facts were. The consequences of an educational system that insists on teaching poetry and mythology but doesn't teach politics and economics.
The obvious inference from these numbers is simply that Leave and Remain voters have different values and priorities.
I know that's (slightly) tautological. But my point is that, had we never joined, but the EU developed in exactly the same way with the UK outside, I expect joining it would be a rather eccentric opinion shared by <20% of the populace, albeit a relatively well-off/intellectual 20%.</p>
"Join the EU and we can fix the NHS" would have won a landslide from the mid 90's onwards.
Particularly after '89. We'd have been increasingly falling behind in a globalising world, exporting our young to germany/france/US, with remittances supporting a moribund economy. There wasn't a viable alternative to EU integration.
There isn't now.0 -
Ha! Superb :-)ydoethur said:
Sorry. That last hand - it almost killed me!Casino_Royale said:
Oi, stop talking about me and getting my name wrong.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:One would have thought that, with seven figures on the table, the casino might choose the croupier and the cards carefully. Apparently in this case Mr Ivey asked specifically for the purple cards, which have a known defect, and the casino agreed. In fact they agreed to a number of variations at Mr Ivey’s request.
Edit: some more background
http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/tournaments-and-miscellaneous/more-details-surrounding-lawsuits-involving-phil-ivey/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
(With apologies to Sunil!)0 -
Yes, I think so.Rhubarb said:
That would suggest that support for (re-)entry may roughly follow Norway's pattern.Casino_Royale said:
I think an awful lot of the Remain case is simply institutional inertia as a function of us already being in it.Sean_F said:
It should not be the job of our educational system to make the EU's case for it.Fenman said:What have we learnt from this? That Brexit voters really didn't have a clue what the EU does and what the facts were. The consequences of an educational system that insists on teaching poetry and mythology but doesn't teach politics and economics.
The obvious inference from these numbers is simply that Leave and Remain voters have different values and priorities.
I know that's (slightly) tautological. But my point is that, had we never joined, but the EU developed in exactly the same way with the UK outside, I expect joining it would be a rather eccentric opinion shared by <20% of the populace, albeit a relatively well-off/intellectual 20%.</p>0 -
His wife was crippled by your heroes, SF-IRA.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
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No, it has always been 'outside' our democratic accountability. Only the fanatics like you who, by their own admission, hate the nation state, desperately cling to the myth that it is otherwise.williamglenn said:
The EU is only 'outside' if we leave it.Richard_Tyndall said:I am amused by the fact that 45% of Remainers think EU regulation of British business is a good thing. I assume that these are the same people who think we should stay in the EU because we cannot trust our own electorate and their representatives to make the 'right' decisions and so need to have them imposed from outside against our will.
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It's a classic correlation not causation thing here. Our membership from c.1973-c.1981 delivered very little "extra".Pong said:
Nah. Our relative economic drag vs developed europe would have guaranteed we joined eventually. Revenues from north sea oil in the 80's might have delayed the inevitable but by the 1990's the voters would had had enough. Europhilia would have been an integral part of the new labour revival.Casino_Royale said:
I think an awful lot of the Remain case is simply institutional inertia as a function of us already being in it.Sean_F said:
It should not be the job of our educational system to make the EU's case for it.Fenman said:What have we learnt from this? That Brexit voters really didn't have a clue what the EU does and what the facts were. The consequences of an educational system that insists on teaching poetry and mythology but doesn't teach politics and economics.
The obvious inference from these numbers is simply that Leave and Remain voters have different values and priorities.
I know that's (slightly) tautological. But my point is that, had we never joined, but the EU developed in exactly the same way with the UK outside, I expect joining it would be a rather eccentric opinion shared by <20% of the populace, albeit a relatively well-off/intellectual 20%.</p>
"Join the EU and we can fix the NHS" would have won a landslide from the mid 90's onwards.
The recovery in the UK's economy from the early 80s onwards was a function of the Thatcher reforms, and North Sea Oil, and without the (then) EEC we'd have remained in EFTA throughout, which would have done nicely.
Given how we've failed to ever complete the market in services, and still have a large trade deficit with the EU, I take a lot of convincing that the EU has delivered the UK an economic miracle.0 -
I hope it is enough for Bilic to hang on as I think that in spite of the recent rough run he is a good manager.AndyJS said:O/T
West Ham were 2-0 down to Tottenham. Now 3-2 to West Ham with 20 mins to go.
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Yes, thanks!TheScreamingEagles said:
He wants to take money from the many (hard working families) and give to the few (the rich elite who pay little or no tax)Stark_Dawning said:
Sorry, I'm probably being incredibly dense here, but I've read that several times and can't see what's wrong with it. Help!Sandpit said:
LOL. Their proof readers are as good as their candidate selection team.TheScreamingEagles said:
Surely everyone here who sends out important documents has someone (or two) who hasn’t seen it before read it before the big red button gets pressed??0 -
It really shouldn't. It's much more truthful like it is.Sandpit said:
It says redistribute wealthStark_Dawning said:
Sorry, I'm probably being incredibly dense here, but I've read that several times and can't see what's wrong with it. Help!Sandpit said:
LOL. Their proof readers are as good as their candidate selection team.TheScreamingEagles said:
Surely everyone here who sends out important documents has someone (or two) who hasn’t seen it before read it before the big red button gets pressed??
“from the many, to the few.”
Should read
“from the few, to the many”
Of course, a good socialist doesn't admit they're going to steal our money, but I admire his honesty.
And now, if he's elected and screws the workers a la Chavez or Brezhnev, we can't say we weren't warned.0 -
It doesn't, because they think the laws are working quite well for them and their families, and see no value in pursuing any 'academic' debate on democracy or sovereignty.Sean_F said:
Again, a big difference in values. To you and me, it matters that those who make our laws are accountable to us. To many Remain voters, it doesn't. Indeed, it may be seen as a good thing that lawmakers are not accountable.Richard_Tyndall said:I am amused by the fact that 45% of Remainers think EU regulation of British business is a good thing. I assume that these are the same people who think we should stay in the EU because we cannot trust our own electorate and their representatives to make the 'right' decisions and so need to have them imposed from outside against our will.
It is no wonder only 11% of Remainers think we ought to be able to make our own laws.0 -
I'm sure like everyone on here you love a bit of pedantry. Traditionally horse racing offered odds (outside exchanges) can only be 28/1 or 33/1.ydoethur said:
Brexitmeansbrexit to win at 30-1? That's a more optimistic forecast. It might even happen!TheScreamingEagles said:
Nah, like John Redwood, he'll tell the OBR to come up with more optimistic forecastsydoethur said:
By increasing borrowing sixfold?foxinsoxuk said:I worry rather more about debt than tax rises, but McDonnell seems sound on this too.
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Sorry, apologies for what? I must have missed something!ydoethur said:
Sorry. That last hand - it almost killed me!Casino_Royale said:
Oi, stop talking about me and getting my name wrong.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:One would have thought that, with seven figures on the table, the casino might choose the croupier and the cards carefully. Apparently in this case Mr Ivey asked specifically for the purple cards, which have a known defect, and the casino agreed. In fact they agreed to a number of variations at Mr Ivey’s request.
Edit: some more background
http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/tournaments-and-miscellaneous/more-details-surrounding-lawsuits-involving-phil-ivey/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
(With apologies to Sunil!)0 -
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/0 -
That's a pretty aggressive comment S_P. Are you sure you want to go there?Sunil_Prasannan said:
His wife was crippled by your heroes, SF-IRA.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
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Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/0 -
I am a little apprehensive of the Hammers' chances this season...Richard_Tyndall said:
I hope it is enough for Bilic to hang on as I think that in spite of the recent rough run he is a good manager.AndyJS said:O/T
West Ham were 2-0 down to Tottenham. Now 3-2 to West Ham with 20 mins to go.0 -
TSE can take itrcs1000 said:
That's a pretty aggressive comment S_P. Are you sure you want to go there?Sunil_Prasannan said:
His wife was crippled by your heroes, SF-IRA.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
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The whole point of democracy is the right of the people to kick the buggers out. How can we get rid of J-C Drunker? Of course the starting point is a demos, a people, and most Brits just don’t see themselves as proud EUians.Casino_Royale said:
It doesn't, because they think the laws are working quite well for them and their families, and see no value in pursuing any 'academic' debate on democracy or sovereignty.Sean_F said:
Again, a big difference in values. To you and me, it matters that those who make our laws are accountable to us. To many Remain voters, it doesn't. Indeed, it may be seen as a good thing that lawmakers are not accountable.Richard_Tyndall said:I am amused by the fact that 45% of Remainers think EU regulation of British business is a good thing. I assume that these are the same people who think we should stay in the EU because we cannot trust our own electorate and their representatives to make the 'right' decisions and so need to have them imposed from outside against our will.
It is no wonder only 11% of Remainers think we ought to be able to make our own laws.0 -
I bet on the Tote. Their odds are rounded to pennies!Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure like everyone on here you love a bit of pedantry. Traditionally horse racing offered odds (outside exchanges) can only be 28/1 or 33/1.ydoethur said:
Brexitmeansbrexit to win at 30-1? That's a more optimistic forecast. It might even happen!TheScreamingEagles said:
Nah, like John Redwood, he'll tell the OBR to come up with more optimistic forecastsydoethur said:
By increasing borrowing sixfold?foxinsoxuk said:I worry rather more about debt than tax rises, but McDonnell seems sound on this too.
I've written quite an interesting article on the Tote which I must publish at some point. Basically they got hugely into debt, their first CEO was pissed all the time and as a result they went bust. So far from having more money for horse tracks as intended, they needed bailing out by the Treasury. All very farcical.0 -
The quoting from a film, of course! I know that's what you like to do.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Sorry, apologies for what? I must have missed something!ydoethur said:
Sorry. That last hand - it almost killed me!Casino_Royale said:
Oi, stop talking about me and getting my name wrong.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:One would have thought that, with seven figures on the table, the casino might choose the croupier and the cards carefully. Apparently in this case Mr Ivey asked specifically for the purple cards, which have a known defect, and the casino agreed. In fact they agreed to a number of variations at Mr Ivey’s request.
Edit: some more background
http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/tournaments-and-miscellaneous/more-details-surrounding-lawsuits-involving-phil-ivey/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
(With apologies to Sunil!)0 -
He is going for a sulk of Heathite proportions. It really is sad to see a once reasonable fellow reduced to bitter whining in this way.Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/0 -
“I’m friends with the monster that’s under my bed” (?)TheScreamingEagles said:
Want to feel old? This is what Eminem looks like today.ydoethur said:Didn't realise he was Mohammed Sarwar's son. That really does make me feel old.
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BREAKING: The World Health Organization has just appointed Jared O'Mara as their LGBT Goodwill Ambassador.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/0 -
Um, fair enough, but it must be a film I've not seen yet!ydoethur said:
The quoting from a film, of course! I know that's what you like to do.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Sorry, apologies for what? I must have missed something!ydoethur said:
Sorry. That last hand - it almost killed me!Casino_Royale said:
Oi, stop talking about me and getting my name wrong.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:One would have thought that, with seven figures on the table, the casino might choose the croupier and the cards carefully. Apparently in this case Mr Ivey asked specifically for the purple cards, which have a known defect, and the casino agreed. In fact they agreed to a number of variations at Mr Ivey’s request.
Edit: some more background
http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/tournaments-and-miscellaneous/more-details-surrounding-lawsuits-involving-phil-ivey/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
(With apologies to Sunil!)0 -
You could give him a second bottle of spirits at a big international convention, then tell him Xi Jinping has a third hidden in the front of his trousers.Sandpit said:
The whole point of democracy is the right of the people to kick the buggers out. How can we get rid of J-C Drunker? Of course the starting point is a demos, a people, and most Brits just don’t see themselves as proud EUians.Casino_Royale said:
It doesn't, because they think the laws are working quite well for them and their families, and see no value in pursuing any 'academic' debate on democracy or sovereignty.Sean_F said:
Again, a big difference in values. To you and me, it matters that those who make our laws are accountable to us. To many Remain voters, it doesn't. Indeed, it may be seen as a good thing that lawmakers are not accountable.Richard_Tyndall said:I am amused by the fact that 45% of Remainers think EU regulation of British business is a good thing. I assume that these are the same people who think we should stay in the EU because we cannot trust our own electorate and their representatives to make the 'right' decisions and so need to have them imposed from outside against our will.
It is no wonder only 11% of Remainers think we ought to be able to make our own laws.
That would probably do it, and it would be very funny to watch, although it might start WWIII in the process.
And with that, I will love you and leave you. Good night to one and all.0 -
They might object to the EU failing to police its external borders way to the south and how large numbers of asylum seekers are able to use free movement to pass to Calais without claiming asylum in any number of the safe countries that they pass along the way, putting the problem at the UK's doorstep.foxinsoxuk said:
In what way would that be helped by Brexit?Casino_Royale said:
I would read that as concerns over the ongoing scenes at Calais.AlastairMeeks said:
The 57% of Leavers who thought asylum seekers were important to their vote suggests blind xenophobia played a big part.Tykejohnno said:
It's the way you tell them.AlastairMeeks said:
Or Leavers voting from prejudice and Remainers voting from personal experience.Eastwinger said:
Remainers voting for themselvesAlastairMeeks said:Some of the differences are striking, notably "impact on me personally".
Leavers voting for the country
Thus, having lost confidence in the institution, with an increasingly aggressive problem at Calais, would prefer the UK to police its own borders entirely instead.0 -
You've not seen Casino Royale??!!!!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Um, fair enough, but it must be a film I've not seen yet!ydoethur said:
The quoting from a film, of course! I know that's what you like to do.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Sorry, apologies for what? I must have missed something!ydoethur said:
Sorry. That last hand - it almost killed me!Casino_Royale said:
Oi, stop talking about me and getting my name wrong.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:One would have thought that, with seven figures on the table, the casino might choose the croupier and the cards carefully. Apparently in this case Mr Ivey asked specifically for the purple cards, which have a known defect, and the casino agreed. In fact they agreed to a number of variations at Mr Ivey’s request.
Edit: some more background
http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/tournaments-and-miscellaneous/more-details-surrounding-lawsuits-involving-phil-ivey/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
(With apologies to Sunil!)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5H_oUd8PGZ80 -
You can't. The "democracy" of his "election" is a charade.Sandpit said:
The whole point of democracy is the right of the people to kick the buggers out. How can we get rid of J-C Drunker? Of course the starting point is a demos, a people, and most Brits just don’t see themselves as proud EUians.Casino_Royale said:
It doesn't, because they think the laws are working quite well for them and their families, and see no value in pursuing any 'academic' debate on democracy or sovereignty.Sean_F said:
Again, a big difference in values. To you and me, it matters that those who make our laws are accountable to us. To many Remain voters, it doesn't. Indeed, it may be seen as a good thing that lawmakers are not accountable.Richard_Tyndall said:I am amused by the fact that 45% of Remainers think EU regulation of British business is a good thing. I assume that these are the same people who think we should stay in the EU because we cannot trust our own electorate and their representatives to make the 'right' decisions and so need to have them imposed from outside against our will.
It is no wonder only 11% of Remainers think we ought to be able to make our own laws.
Given he campaigned on a platform of keeping the UK inside the EU, he should have done the honourable thing and resigned.0 -
I've only seen the David Niven/Woody Allen version...ydoethur said:
You've not seen Casino Royale??!!!!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Um, fair enough, but it must be a film I've not seen yet!ydoethur said:
The quoting from a film, of course! I know that's what you like to do.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Sorry, apologies for what? I must have missed something!ydoethur said:
Sorry. That last hand - it almost killed me!Casino_Royale said:
Oi, stop talking about me and getting my name wrong.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:One would have thought that, with seven figures on the table, the casino might choose the croupier and the cards carefully. Apparently in this case Mr Ivey asked specifically for the purple cards, which have a known defect, and the casino agreed. In fact they agreed to a number of variations at Mr Ivey’s request.
Edit: some more background
http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/tournaments-and-miscellaneous/more-details-surrounding-lawsuits-involving-phil-ivey/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
(With apologies to Sunil!)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5H_oUd8PGZ80 -
Still my favourite ever scene from a Bond film.ydoethur said:
You've not seen Casino Royale??!!!!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Um, fair enough, but it must be a film I've not seen yet!ydoethur said:
The quoting from a film, of course! I know that's what you like to do.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Sorry, apologies for what? I must have missed something!ydoethur said:
Sorry. That last hand - it almost killed me!Casino_Royale said:
Oi, stop talking about me and getting my name wrong.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:One would have thought that, with seven figures on the table, the casino might choose the croupier and the cards carefully. Apparently in this case Mr Ivey asked specifically for the purple cards, which have a known defect, and the casino agreed. In fact they agreed to a number of variations at Mr Ivey’s request.
Edit: some more background
http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/tournaments-and-miscellaneous/more-details-surrounding-lawsuits-involving-phil-ivey/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
(With apologies to Sunil!)
I was in danger of being asked to leave the cinema because I couldn't stop laughing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE1evIbc3mw0 -
This poll confirms that for Remainers the referendum was about the economy and trade while for Leavers it was about British sovereignty and freedom from EU laws and immigration.0
-
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.0 -
Amazingly this years wsop, ceasers entertainment* ditched superior cards for what were described as the worst they have been for years. They marked / bent incredibly easily and there were huge complaints. So I wouldn't take anything for granted.Sandpit said:
The answer to that question is simply that the casino went along with the suggestion of a high roller to play with his ‘lucky’ type of cards.ydoethur said:
Yes, I see that is a difference. Thank you.Sandpit said:
He didn’t ask for a specific deck of cards, he asked for a specific type of cards - which the casino purchased from their supplier and the deck or decks used would have been unwrapped by the casino. The fact is that Ivey could have played with any deck of the Gemaco purple cards, they were all ‘faulty’.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:One would have thought that, with seven figures on the table, the casino might choose the croupier and the cards carefully. Apparently in this case Mr Ivey asked specifically for the purple cards, which have a known defect, and the casino agreed. In fact they agreed to a number of variations at Mr Ivey’s request.
Edit: some more background
http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/tournaments-and-miscellaneous/more-details-surrounding-lawsuits-involving-phil-ivey/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
No casino would dare play with a deck that a punter brought with him, as they’d be assumed to be marked in some way, and in this case there’s no suggestion that anyone at the casino knew what was going on until after the event.
In that very interesting article on them you linked to there is a comment, the gist of which is, why not just have them a single plain colour then rather than patterned at all?
At risk of sounding dense - why don't they? I used to play with cards of solid colour against my grandfather. I never noticed that it made any difference to our playing.
I’m going to speculate that casinos have changed both the design of their cards and their willingness to bend or change rules for high stakes games, as a result of these cases.
* I can't remember how many casino properties they own, but a lot.0 -
Your loss.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I've only seen the David Niven/Woody Allen version...ydoethur said:
You've not seen Casino Royale??!!!!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Um, fair enough, but it must be a film I've not seen yet!ydoethur said:
The quoting from a film, of course! I know that's what you like to do.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Sorry, apologies for what? I must have missed something!ydoethur said:
Sorry. That last hand - it almost killed me!Casino_Royale said:
Oi, stop talking about me and getting my name wrong.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:One would have thought that, with seven figures on the table, the casino might choose the croupier and the cards carefully. Apparently in this case Mr Ivey asked specifically for the purple cards, which have a known defect, and the casino agreed. In fact they agreed to a number of variations at Mr Ivey’s request.
Edit: some more background
http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/tournaments-and-miscellaneous/more-details-surrounding-lawsuits-involving-phil-ivey/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
(With apologies to Sunil!)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5H_oUd8PGZ8
And with that it really is good night from me.0 -
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.0 -
It is always funny, though, to see people get caught out doing things that are completely at variance with their professed beliefs.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.0 -
"I have been told of a certain sea snake which has a very unusual method of attracting its prey. It will lie at the bottom of the ocean as if wounded. Then its enemies will approach, and yet it will lie quite still. And then its enemies will take little bites of it, and yet it remains still."TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.0 -
In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.0
-
I know this is going to provoke lots of fun comments from the usual chicken lickens but it seems the reports of Britain's demise as a global power are somewhat exaggerated.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-study-ranks-britain-second-powerful-country-world/0 -
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 6% interest on student fees and decision to freeze the threshold for repayment of student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.0 -
I Should have added that the crap cards were not only in circulation for low buyin mass participant events, but things like $50k buyin events.0
-
Whoops. We’ve got a huge televised international tournament coming to our casino, so let’s change our good cards out for shit ones that are easily marked. Idiots.FrancisUrquhart said:
Amazingly this years wsop, ceasers entertainment* ditched superior cards for what were described as the worst they have been for years. They marked / bent incredibly easily and there were huge complaints. So I wouldn't take anything for granted.Sandpit said:
The answer to that question is simply that the casino went along with the suggestion of a high roller to play with his ‘lucky’ type of cards.ydoethur said:
Yes, I see that is a difference. Thank you.Sandpit said:
He didn’t ask for a specific deck of cards, he asked for a specific type of cards - which the casino purchased from their supplier and the deck or decks used would have been unwrapped by the casino. The fact is that Ivey could have played with any deck of the Gemaco purple cards, they were all ‘faulty’.ydoethur said:
Equally though - to play devil's advocate slightly - are there some adjustments that go beyond good faith? For example, suppose he had asked to use a deck that had been deliberately marked, that would surely be considered cheating. Yet this isn't so wildly different on the face of it (or the edge of it)!Sandpit said:/
That said, the casino agreed so it seems reasonable to say they were fools, and we all know what happens to fools and their money. But if the cards had been pre-marked and the casino agreed without knowing it, that would still have been fraud wouldn't it?
Autocorrect is screwing me up now - you can tell I'm a musician not a gambler, it keeps changing 'casino' to 'Casio'.
No casino would dare play with a deck that a punter brought with him, as they’d be assumed to be marked in some way, and in this case there’s no suggestion that anyone at the casino knew what was going on until after the event.
In that very interesting article on them you linked to there is a comment, the gist of which is, why not just have them a single plain colour then rather than patterned at all?
At risk of sounding dense - why don't they? I used to play with cards of solid colour against my grandfather. I never noticed that it made any difference to our playing.
I’m going to speculate that casinos have changed both the design of their cards and their willingness to bend or change rules for high stakes games, as a result of these cases.
* I can't remember how many casino properties they own, but a lot.
I was going to say that cards must be a massive expense for casinos, but then I remembered that all the casinos will sell you a deck of cards they used last week for about $10.0 -
Nothing is inevitable in today's politicsTheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.0 -
In which Mr Meeks yet again ignores the fact that the biggest reason given for people voting Leave was 'Britain's ability to make its own laws'. Something he has regularly denied as being a significant reason on here in his desperate attempts to make this all about xenophobia. .AlastairMeeks said:In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.
0 -
Admit it, Alastair. You're just racist against us Leavers!AlastairMeeks said:In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.
0 -
Talk me through the 57% of Leavers who thought asylum seekers were important to their decision.Richard_Tyndall said:
In which Mr Meeks yet again ignores the fact that the biggest reason given for people voting Leave was 'Britain's ability to make its own laws'. Something he has regularly denied as being a significant reason on here in his desperate attempts to make this all about xenophobia. .AlastairMeeks said:In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.
0 -
The more you look at Osborne's attitude to the young the more you realise he was the architect of a lot of today's problems with the youth vote and universal credit. Likely May and Hammond will start rectifying these errors, beginning in the Autumn budgetHYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.0 -
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.0 -
No. Large numbers of you are self-deluding cretins who are damaging this country economically, culturally and morally. But you're all God's children.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Admit it, Alastair. You're just racist against us Leavers!AlastairMeeks said:In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.
-1 -
Voulgaris was skeptical, tweeting, “Cards had speckled shiny dots in what appeared to be distinctive patterns based on value of the cards. Was not a function of shuffler imo. Was really spooky, took a few tries until we found decks which did not have the arrangement of dots.”
https://www.gamblingsites.org/news/junk-cards-at-wsop/
In a $100k buyin tournament...
Good job ivey skipped this year's wsop, otherwise he would have been claiming some of these decks were his lucky decks...
Again not some Indian casino in Idaho, but one of the largest casino groups in the world.0 -
And since then they have become a cause of serious concernTheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.0 -
White man calls Asian bloke a "self-deluding cretin".AlastairMeeks said:
No. Large numbers of you are self-deluding cretins who are damaging this country economically, culturally and morally. But you're all God's children.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Admit it, Alastair. You're just racist against us Leavers!AlastairMeeks said:In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.
Yep, you're an unreconstructed racist!0 -
Osborne managed the 2010 campaign when the Tories failed to get a majority, Crosby ran the 2015 campaign. I am not saying everything Osborne did was bad, he made the right call on cutting IHT, cut the deficit and unemployment but there is no doubt his 1% public sector pay cap and freezing of the threshold for student fee repayment were capitalised on by Corbyn in the 2017 general election campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.0 -
Thank you for your noble thoughts.AlastairMeeks said:
No. Large numbers of you are self-deluding cretins who are damaging this country economically, culturally and morally. But you're all God's children.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Admit it, Alastair. You're just racist against us Leavers!AlastairMeeks said:In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.
0 -
Only because Mrs May decided not to focus on the economy during the campaign.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And since then they have become a cause of serious concernTheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.0 -
On the student loan repayment threshold and the public sector pay cap most likely and maybe the public sector pay cap too.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The more you look at Osborne's attitude to the young the more you realise he was the architect of a lot of today's problems with the youth vote and universal credit. Likely May and Hammond will start rectifying these errors, beginning in the Autumn budgetHYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.0 -
Las Vegas shooter's younger brother Bruce Paddock, 59, is arrested after police find more than 600 images of child pornography on his computer
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5016979/Las-Vegas-shooter-s-brother-arrested-child-porn.html0 -
Talk me through the logic that says that anyone who was concerned about the mass migrations that were occurring across the EU in 2015 and 2016 was a xenophobe. It is only mindless bigots like you who think like that.AlastairMeeks said:
Talk me through the 57% of Leavers who thought asylum seekers were important to their decision.Richard_Tyndall said:
In which Mr Meeks yet again ignores the fact that the biggest reason given for people voting Leave was 'Britain's ability to make its own laws'. Something he has regularly denied as being a significant reason on here in his desperate attempts to make this all about xenophobia. .AlastairMeeks said:In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.
0 -
That would be the 2010 campaign where the Tories made most net gains since at a general election since WW2?HYUFD said:
Osborne managed the 2010 campaign where the Tories failed to get a majority, Crosby ran the 2015 campaign. I am not saying everything Osborne did was bad, he made the right call on cutting IHT, cut the deficit and unemployment but there is no doubt his 1% public sector pay cap and freezing of the threshold for student fee repayment were capitalised on by Corbyn in the 2017 general election campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.
How many net gains did Mrs May make?0 -
As I expected, you can't.Richard_Tyndall said:
Talk me through the logic that says that anyone who was concerned about the mass migrations that were occurring across the EU in 2015 and 2016 was a xenophobe. It is only mindless bigots like you who think like that.AlastairMeeks said:
Talk me through the 57% of Leavers who thought asylum seekers were important to their decision.Richard_Tyndall said:
In which Mr Meeks yet again ignores the fact that the biggest reason given for people voting Leave was 'Britain's ability to make its own laws'. Something he has regularly denied as being a significant reason on here in his desperate attempts to make this all about xenophobia. .AlastairMeeks said:In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.
"Breaking Point" was the winning poster. Now Britain has to live with the consequences.0 -
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AlastairMeeks - was it a moral decision to declare you would not pay your share of income tax? Or just a decision to stand in solidarity with Jimmy Carr?0
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She won more seats than the Tories did in 2010.TheScreamingEagles said:
That would be the 2010 campaign where the Tories made most net gains since at a general election since WW2?HYUFD said:
Osborne managed the 2010 campaign where the Tories failed to get a majority, Crosby ran the 2015 campaign. I am not saying everything Osborne did was bad, he made the right call on cutting IHT, cut the deficit and unemployment but there is no doubt his 1% public sector pay cap and freezing of the threshold for student fee repayment were capitalised on by Corbyn in the 2017 general election campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.
How many net gains did Mrs May make?
0 -
Tory votes 2015: 11,334,226TheScreamingEagles said:
That would be the 2010 campaign where the Tories made most net gains since at a general election since WW2?HYUFD said:
Osborne managed the 2010 campaign where the Tories failed to get a majority, Crosby ran the 2015 campaign. I am not saying everything Osborne did was bad, he made the right call on cutting IHT, cut the deficit and unemployment but there is no doubt his 1% public sector pay cap and freezing of the threshold for student fee repayment were capitalised on by Corbyn in the 2017 general election campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.
How many net gains did Mrs May make?
Tory votes 2017: 13,669,883
Mrs May won the highest Tory share of the vote since 1983...0 -
Either 17,410,742 of my fellow countrymen are xenophobic morons, or one of them is an angry snob. Oooooh, it's a difficult one.
I am prepared to listen to anyone equating opposition to immigration with racism if they are prepared to do an Orwell: go and live in Boston or Thurrock for three months, living on their own unskilled labour or the dole if they can't find employment. Otherwise, not.0 -
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Looks like Mrs May is trying to get Matthew Elliott to work for the party. He's pretty astute.
https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/9232971449828392980 -
He needs to be more than pretty astute, he needs to be a miracle worker....I think all potential hires need to be tested to see if they can walk on water or part the sea....TheScreamingEagles said:Looks like Mrs May is trying to get Matthew Elliott to work for the party. He's pretty astute.
twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/9232971449828392980 -
What on earth are you talking about?PAW said:AlastairMeeks - was it a moral decision to declare you would not pay your share of income tax? Or just a decision to stand in solidarity with Jimmy Carr?
0 -
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She's left the Tory party in a worse state than when she found it.HYUFD said:
She won more seats than the Tories did in 2010.TheScreamingEagles said:
That would be the 2010 campaign where the Tories made most net gains since at a general election since WW2?HYUFD said:
Osborne managed the 2010 campaign where the Tories failed to get a majority, Crosby ran the 2015 campaign. I am not saying everything Osborne did was bad, he made the right call on cutting IHT, cut the deficit and unemployment but there is no doubt his 1% public sector pay cap and freezing of the threshold for student fee repayment were capitalised on by Corbyn in the 2017 general election campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.
How many net gains did Mrs May make?
331 seats down to 318 seats.
When George Osborne got involved properly, he took the party from 198 seats to 331 seats.
A fie on Mrs May.0 -
Tory votes 2015: 11,334,226TheScreamingEagles said:
She's left the Tory party in a worse state than when she found it.HYUFD said:
She won more seats than the Tories did in 2010.TheScreamingEagles said:
That would be the 2010 campaign where the Tories made most net gains since at a general election since WW2?HYUFD said:
Osborne managed the 2010 campaign where the Tories failed to get a majority, Crosby ran the 2015 campaign. I am not sayinreezing of the threshold for student fee repayment were capitalised on by Corbyn in the 2017 general election campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.
How many net gains did Mrs May make?
331 seats down to 318 seats.
When George Osborne got involved properly, he took the party from 198 seats to 331 seats.
A fie on Mrs May.
Tory votes 2017: 13,669,883
Mrs May won the highest Tory share of the vote since 1983...0 -
AlastairMeeks - in the days after the referendum - you said, on this site, you wouldn't pay another penny income tax.0
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Tedious troll Sunil, the Tory party campaigned on keeping FPTP, that's the metric they want to be judged on.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Tory votes 2015: 11,334,226
Tory votes 2017: 13,669,883
Mrs May won the highest Tory share of the vote since 1983...
If they wanted to be judged on absolute votes/popular vote, then they should have backed proportional representation.0 -
You're making things up. Your entirely spurious unemployment statistics for EU residents being another example.PAW said:AlastairMeeks - in the days after the referendum - you said, on this site, you wouldn't pay another penny income tax.
0 -
David Cameron took the party to 331 seats.TheScreamingEagles said:
She's left the Tory party in a worse state than when she found it.HYUFD said:
She won more seats than the Tories did in 2010.TheScreamingEagles said:
That would be the 2010 campaign where the Tories made most net gains since at a general election since WW2?HYUFD said:
Osborne managed the 2010 campaign where the Tories failed to get a majority, Crosby ran the 2015 campaign. I am not saying everything Osborne did was bad, he made the right call on cutting IHT, cut the deficit and unemployment but there is no doubt his 1% public sector pay cap and freezing of the threshold for student fee repayment were capitalised on by Corbyn in the 2017 general election campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.
How many net gains did Mrs May make?
331 seats down to 318 seats.
When George Osborne got involved properly, he took the party from 198 seats to 331 seats.
A fie on Mrs May.0 -
NEW THREAD
0 -
Osborne ran the campaign which took the Tories to 306 seats, Cameron and Crosby took them to 331 seats, May got 318 seats.TheScreamingEagles said:
She's left the Tory party in a worse state than when she found it.HYUFD said:
She won more seats than the Tories did in 2010.TheScreamingEagles said:
That would be the 2010 campaign where the Tories made most net gains since at a general election since WW2?HYUFD said:
Osborne managed the 2010 campaign where the Tories failed to get a majority, Crosby ran the 2015 campaign. I am not saying campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Nope, George Osborne's economic policies helped take the Tories from opposition to government, then to a majority, the only one in the last 25 years.HYUFD said:
I would have thought Osborne's imposition of 7% interest on student fees, his 1% public sector pay cap and his 6 week wait for UC etc would have had an impact too.TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.
The long term economic plan was a cornerstone of the Tory majority in 2015.
How many net gains did Mrs May make?
331 seats down to 318 seats.
When George Osborne got involved properly, he took the party from 198 seats to 331 seats.
A fie on Mrs May.
Net seat gains is a ridiculous argument, on that basis Kinnock in 1992 did better than Blair in 2001 or Hague in 2001 better than Major in 1992, absurd. It is raw seat numbers which counts.0 -
And how did that work out?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"I have been told of a certain sea snake which has a very unusual method of attracting its prey. It will lie at the bottom of the ocean as if wounded. Then its enemies will approach, and yet it will lie quite still. And then its enemies will take little bites of it, and yet it remains still."TheScreamingEagles said:
Totally wrong, I'm getting really frustrated by my side, because everything we are doing is making Corbyn PM (and McDonnell as Chancellor) inevitable.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, to be fair I've seen a few of those posts, yes, but I've noticed you're a bit more understanding and tolerant of the Labour/LD side these days.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have you missed my constant derision of Jared O'Mara the past few days?Casino_Royale said:
You seem to enjoy throwing abuse at the right-wing of the Conservative Party in a way you don't with your erstwhile political opponents.TheScreamingEagles said:Was Norman Tebbit this much of a twat when he was in government?
Former Conservative Party chair Lord Tebbit claims air pollution is making people transgender.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/24/former-conservative-party-chair-lord-tebbit-claims-air-pollution-is-making-people-transgender/
For what it's worth, I'd only hold Jared accountable for his most recent behaviour as a candidate/politician, not what he said on the web 15 years ago.
That really scares me.0 -
Still the mindless bigot I see unwilling to accept his own failings.AlastairMeeks said:
As I expected, you can't.Richard_Tyndall said:
Talk me through the logic that says that anyone who was concerned about the mass migrations that were occurring across the EU in 2015 and 2016 was a xenophobe. It is only mindless bigots like you who think like that.AlastairMeeks said:
Talk me through the 57% of Leavers who thought asylum seekers were important to their decision.Richard_Tyndall said:
In which Mr Meeks yet again ignores the fact that the biggest reason given for people voting Leave was 'Britain's ability to make its own laws'. Something he has regularly denied as being a significant reason on here in his desperate attempts to make this all about xenophobia. .AlastairMeeks said:In which Leavers studiously ignore the items about immigration and asylum seekers and studiously pretend to each other that theirs was a noble cause rather than a victory won through pandering to xenophobia, in the teeth of the evidence in the thread header.
"Breaking Point" was the winning poster. Now Britain has to live with the consequences.0 -
del0
