politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The inter-generational gap: The Pinch and the Punch
Comments
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You think Princeton is not a nice place? You think it can't attract international students?DavidL said:
You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Well, its a view.
Think again, my friend.0 -
Moment of silence please....
Let's Make a Deal game show host Monty Hall dies at 96
http://news.sky.com/story/lets-make-a-deal-game-show-host-monty-hall-dies-at-96-110624850 -
Heseltine says after the German election a deal could be done with the EU on immigration making Brexit unnecessary and helping the Tories win back younger voters0
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He was saying only just the other day they no longer care about anything we do or that we are leaving, why would they now care about making a deal?HYUFD said:Heseltine says after the German election a deal could be done with the EU on immigration making Brexit unnecessary and helping the Tories win back younger voters
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What all these independence needs is more devolved powers as Canada ultimately gave Quebec and Brown promised in 2014 in 'the vow'.kle4 said:
Well indeed - another reason the heavy handedness is unnecessary.HYUFD said:
Not of course that it seems Spain is going to allow an independent Catalonia anyway though whether Catalonia declares UDI is another matterkle4 said:
It could find a way to argue the two situations are different. This is Europe, political fudge is our meal of choice.HYUFD said:
If an independent Scotland joined the EU it would be almost impossible ftlandDavidL said:
Why? What is this obsession with consistency?HYUFD said:
Which would also mean they would have to veto claims of a hypothetical independent Scotland to join the EU all day every day if Scotland ever had a second independence referendum which passedAlistair said:
An independent Catalonia will never be a member of the EU. Spain will veto it all day and every day.HYUFD said:
However if it splits Spain and sees Catalonia join the EU after many EU nations might start to think about whether they want their countries potentially all split into regions of an EU superstateSouthamObserver said:
This has very little to do with the EU. It's not as if other governments elsewhere are backing Catalan UDI. What we have in Spain is a right wing, nationalist government, with its roots in Francoism, doing everything in its power to turn what had been a minority cause in Catalonia into a majority one. Today's violence will now see a major shift in international opinion. The separatists have won.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well the EU is holding firm behind them but then the EU has never really had much truck with democracy anyway.kle4 said:It is always a bit awkward given our culture elevates democratic will and mandate above nearly all else - certainly above following the rules, man, as any pop culture tells us - that doing so is intrinsically 'the right thing' even against the rules, it is awkward when we, or in this case Spain, responds so aggressively to an attempt to vote, even if it is indeed against the law and given the disruptions hardly a credible vote.
Internationally I Think southam is right this nets them more support, but governments are holding firm behind Spain I think?
Repression just makes it worse0 -
Mr. HYUFD, hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
I think Heseltine's pro-EU optimism may have clouded his judgement a shade.0 -
I'm sure Princeton is a lovely place, as is St Andrews, but then, sadly, I am not 18 anymore.YBarddCwsc said:
You think Princeton is not a nice place? You think it can't attract international students?DavidL said:
You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Well, its a view.
Think again, my friend.0 -
Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
He was streets ahead of Boris, and that is saying somethingHYUFD said:
Tell that to Ken Livingstonemalcolmg said:
That buffoon would never get electedkle4 said:
She's saving us from a Johnson premiership though.malcolmg said:
More like a stubborn fool G, out of her depth but too pig headed to take the principled decision.Big_G_NorthWales said:
She is under colossal pressure and you have to wonder how most anyone would just not walk away, no matter one's opinion of her she must have amazing fortitude and determination - she is at least a serious politiciantlg86 said:
For a brief moment I was actually quite impressed by her. She showed some fighting spirit talking about a run on the pound under Labour.Big_G_NorthWales said:Theresa May facing tough questions from Marr
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All very well but not all courses have the same graduate earning premium, someone studying Medicine, Engineering or Economics will earn significantly more post graduation than someone studying English, History or Art.ThomasNashe said:
Yes, I think the reason universities haven't done this - and probably won't in future (despite market logic suggesting they should) is because most academics still support the ideal of a university with a broad curriculum that embraces all fields of knowledge.HYUFD said:
The government is proposing fees for humanities courses can be cutThomasNashe said:
The Government no longer funds places on humanities courses, whereas it still does provide funding for places on STEM courses. The logic of the marketisation of HE (which incidentally I don't support) is that universities should be able to offer places on low cost courses such as English literature and history for much less than £9,250 a year.Richard_Tyndall said:
They can object but it wouldn't be 'quite rightly'. Why should the tax payer subsidise students studying courses that will bring only marginal benefit to the country rather than those which have real practical benefits. If we were not short of STEM graduates you would perhaps have a point but when both money and those with the right skills are lacking it is surely the job of the Government to target the taxpayer's money to where it would best benefit the country.ThomasNashe said:
Yes, but despite all that many students still prefer to study history, literature etc. They can quite rightly object to their choices being used to cross-subsidise STEM subjects.HYUFD said:
Which is why arts degree fees should be cut given they are both cheaper to run and have a lower graduate earnings premium and Hammond is sensibly looking at this while subsidising STEM courses which would still charge £9000ydoethur said:
It doesn't. Usually it costs about £2-3,000.not_on_fire said:Surely the other key question is why it costs £9000 a year for a history degree with 10 hours a week (over about 30 weeks) of contact time?
However, it can cost up to £30,000 to train a science graduate, and since they can't charge full fees for that, they need to recruit as many cheaper students in history, English, politics, business, art etc to make up the shortfall.
The other elephant in the e whole.
Ironically if fees for humanities subjects remain too high that will reduce demand and numbers for them more than if they were cut0 -
DavidL
I think it often comes as a surprise to international students who have enrolled at Royal Holloway, University of London, to find that they are not actually in London! However, given that it is such a beautiful campus, and the fact there is a train to London every half hour, they usually come to accept it.0 -
Franco Fascists.OchEye said:
Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
Looks like Boris has won the Luntz focus group from Sunday Politics clips but we will see shortly0
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Some would and some wouldn't. There's no shortage of students, including high paying international students, in cities and towns all over the UK.DavidL said:
You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Well, its a view.
If the options are UCL Bloomsbury at £9k pa or UCL Peterborough at £6k pa which would students chose ?
Perhaps the universities in London, Oxford and Cambridge should open outstation colleges in towns which are cheap but still have good communications.0 -
Just a tadMorris_Dancer said:Mr. HYUFD, hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
I think Heseltine's pro-EU optimism may have clouded his judgement a shade.0 -
Due to rising right-wing anti immigration populism on the continent in his viewkle4 said:
He was saying only just the other day they no longer care about anything we do or that we are leaving, why would they now care about making a deal?HYUFD said:Heseltine says after the German election a deal could be done with the EU on immigration making Brexit unnecessary and helping the Tories win back younger voters
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You might think that, but Mason (and others) couldn't possibly comment.FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
Not to mention LSE with numerous 7 and 8 storey blocks just off Aldwych.YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.0 -
David, I was joking so hopefully did not upset you in any way. No Betts on west coast but they built good houses. We certainly don't appreciate how lucky we are, given location etc yet we get houses for a fraction of the prices down south and none of the overcrowding and packed roads to put up withDavidL said:
Nothing palatial about this Malcolm. It's a glorified Betts Box from the early 90s. But house prices are not the problem in Scotland outside the posher parts of Edinburgh. The problem is not enough people earning sufficient to build up deposits and pay the mortgage. At the moment house builders could build plenty more houses on already approved sites if the demand was there.malcolmg said:
I have similar , minus conservatory, ensuite , cloakroom and countryside views , will not be much above £200K on a good day. Bet its not as big and palatial as yours though David.DavidL said:
I have a 4 bedroom detached house with front and back gardens, a garage, a study, a conservatory with views of the hills and a drive way big enough for 3 cars. Nice neighbours too. £300K on a good day.Barnesian said:
I live on the first floor of a five storey mansion block in Barnes. It was built in 1908. Very solid and soundproof. We have a balcony with table and chairs where I smoke a cigar, sipping my cognac surveying the Barnes scene. It has a rather nice entrance and staircase at the front and a more scruffy servant staircase at the back that our porter uses. It is multinational with young and old. Our frequent parties in the communal gardens are spent moaning about Brexit (as well as drinking). I know all my neighbours and it has the feel of a grand Cambridge college staircase. Highly recommended. About £1 million per apartment.Cyclefree said:
Agree with this. I grew up in such a home in Italy and it was great. Well built mansion blocks, particularly if you "green" them with roof terraces and balconies, can be a good alternative and make a sensible use of the space we already have within cities.AlastairMeeks said:
Needs not wants. Anyway, a lot of it is about poverty of imagination. Courtyard blocks are common across much of Europe, use space very efficiently and can be very stylish.ydoethur said:RochdalePioneers said:
The key is to build them well rather than the shoddy gimcrack flats that too many large houses have been turned into.0 -
The irony is that at least some of those voters, particularly the (literally) bleeding pensioners, are likely to have been No voters.FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
Just a point on unis in cheaper towns. Places like Warwick (not in Warwick, a field on the outskirts of coventry), Exeter and Loughborough are all newish unis and consistent ranked in top 10-15 unis in the country and extremely popular. It is how well ranked, facilities and earning potential that makes so oversubscribed.0
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Rising from last week when he was saying how they don't care about whether we stay or go anymore?HYUFD said:
Due to rising right-wing anti immigration populism on the continent in his viewkle4 said:
He was saying only just the other day they no longer care about anything we do or that we are leaving, why would they now care about making a deal?HYUFD said:Heseltine says after the German election a deal could be done with the EU on immigration making Brexit unnecessary and helping the Tories win back younger voters
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With Hezza you can never be entirely certain.HYUFD said:0 -
' Fee repayment thresholds will also rise, so graduates will start paying back loans once they earn £25,000, rather than £21,000, the PM said. '
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41456555
Will we seen editorials in the London Evening Standard denouncing this increase ?0 -
F1: counter-intuitive, but Vandoorne has now scored more points than Alonso.0
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Think it is the Franco way, usually right wing that use para military units to rough up the publicOchEye said:
Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
Then there will be far less investment in Housing, and ultimately we will be to the squalid situation before the 1988 Housing Act where tenants refuse eg upgraded kitchens and bathrooms and double glazing and safety improvements because that will be one of the exceptions allowing an increase.RochdalePioneers said:
Not at the moment. But if rent controls smash the rate they can charge in places like London...Big_G_NorthWales said:
Can you identify any BTL property being sold cheaply by a landlord who says there is no profit in it. A large majority of BTL landlords are in it for the long term as an investment sometimes as a pension fundRochdalePioneers said:I'd free local authorities to hoover up BTL homes being sold cheap by landlords who decided there wasn't enough profit in it. Borrowing to buy a cheap asset makes sense as an investment especially when it fulfils a community purpose.
We can't keep on building more and more and more houses. The developers charter the Tories brought in already means that residents and councils and planning officers can do little to stop developers building the wrong kinds of houses in the wrong locations. Scrap the NPPF is another good step.
Further rental investment will be choked off because that kind of rent control kills value - an "Assured Tenancy" (ie protected) as opposed to an Assured Shorthold Tenancy reduces the value of a property by anything between 30% and 70%. That is to the extent that there is a long term speculative market in buying houses with Assured Tenancies with the price and reward based on the expected death of the tenant, when the value will soar. Single tenant in their 80s with no living relatives = more valuable house.
And you end up with a 2 tier market for people with inside / privileged connections or not.
See, for example, New York.
And if they go for the "rent rises up to inflation" option (see various places in Europe), then that may actually be an opportunity for rents to rise more quickly because UK private rents have been rising behind inflation for decades.
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Madrid government = Partido Popular = right wing conservatives. PP spend a lot of time denying that they're the heirs to Franco; draw your own conclusions.OchEye said:
Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
When I was working I used to get upset if there was a car in front of me on the way to the Office!!!!malcolmg said:
David, I was joking so hopefully did not upset you in any way. No Betts on west coast but they built good houses. We certainly don't appreciate how lucky we are, given location etc yet we get houses for a fraction of the prices down south and none of the overcrowding and packed roads to put up withDavidL said:
Nothing palatial about this Malcolm. It's a glorified Betts Box from the early 90s. But house prices are not the problem in Scotland outside the posher parts of Edinburgh. The problem is not enough people earning sufficient to build up deposits and pay the mortgage. At the moment house builders could build plenty more houses on already approved sites if the demand was there.malcolmg said:
I have similar , minus conservatory, ensuite , cloakroom and countryside views , will not be much above £200K on a good day. Bet its not as big and palatial as yours though David.DavidL said:
I have a 4 bedroom detached house with front and back gardens, a garage, a study, a conservatory with views of the hills and a drive way big enough for 3 cars. Nice neighbours too. £300K on a good day.Barnesian said:
I live on the first floor of a five storey mansion block in Barnes. It was built in 1908. Very solid and soundproof. We have a balcony with table and chairs where I smoke a cigar, sipping my cognac surveying the Barnes scene. It has a rather nice entrance and staircase at the front and a more scruffy servant staircase at the back that our porter uses. It is multinational with young and old. Our frequent parties in the communal gardens are spent moaning about Brexit (as well as drinking). I know all my neighbours and it has the feel of a grand Cambridge college staircase. Highly recommended. About £1 million per apartment.Cyclefree said:
Agree with this. I grew up in such a home in Italy and it was great. Well built mansion blocks, particularly if you "green" them with roof terraces and balconies, can be a good alternative and make a sensible use of the space we already have within cities.AlastairMeeks said:
Needs not wants. Anyway, a lot of it is about poverty of imagination. Courtyard blocks are common across much of Europe, use space very efficiently and can be very stylish.ydoethur said:RochdalePioneers said:
The key is to build them well rather than the shoddy gimcrack flats that too many large houses have been turned into.0 -
No offence taken Malcolm, none at all. Its just we (and most of England north of Luton) have very different but very real housing problems.malcolmg said:
David, I was joking so hopefully did not upset you in any way. No Betts on west coast but they built good houses. We certainly don't appreciate how lucky we are, given location etc yet we get houses for a fraction of the prices down south and none of the overcrowding and packed roads to put up withDavidL said:
Nothing palatial about this Malcolm. It's a glorified Betts Box from the early 90s. But house prices are not the problem in Scotland outside the posher parts of Edinburgh. The problem is not enough people earning sufficient to build up deposits and pay the mortgage. At the moment house builders could build plenty more houses on already approved sites if the demand was there.malcolmg said:
I have similar , minus conservatory, ensuite , cloakroom and countryside views , will not be much above £200K on a good day. Bet its not as big and palatial as yours though David.DavidL said:
I have a 4 bedroom detached house with front and back gardens, a garage, a study, a conservatory with views of the hills and a drive way big enough for 3 cars. Nice neighbours too. £300K on a good day.Barnesian said:
I live on the first floor of a five storey mansion block in Barnes. It was built in 1908. Very solid and soundproof. We have a balcony with table and chairs where I smoke a cigar, sipping my cognac surveying the Barnes scene. It has a rather nice entrance and staircase at the front and a more scruffy servant staircase at the back that our porter uses. It is multinational with young and old. Our frequent parties in the communal gardens are spent moaning about Brexit (as well as drinking). I know all my neighbours and it has the feel of a grand Cambridge college staircase. Highly recommended. About £1 million per apartment.Cyclefree said:
Agree with this. I grew up in such a home in Italy and it was great. Well built mansion blocks, particularly if you "green" them with roof terraces and balconies, can be a good alternative and make a sensible use of the space we already have within cities.AlastairMeeks said:
Needs not wants. Anyway, a lot of it is about poverty of imagination. Courtyard blocks are common across much of Europe, use space very efficiently and can be very stylish.ydoethur said:RochdalePioneers said:
The key is to build them well rather than the shoddy gimcrack flats that too many large houses have been turned into.0 -
Has the case for on-line voting hardened in Catalonia?0
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Absolutely but now they will be yes in a big wayTheuniondivvie said:
The irony is that at least some of those voters, particularly the (literally) bleeding pensioners, are likely to have been No voters.FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
That's an interesting idea -although TBF, UCL is doing just that with it's gradual move to StratfordYBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
You do need to consider economic clustering. For example, my School (in Bloomsbury) considered relocating outside of Central London but decided the synergies from being close to the Crick and the Wellcome Trust (principally the ability to attract to ranked professors) outweighed the costs0 -
G , I spent time living in Hemel Hempstead are and also Hampshire and traffic was horrific, not worth going out on holidays/weekends. Here I can go anywhere , get ferries , clear roads etc any time.Big_G_NorthWales said:
When I was working I used to get upset if there was a car in front of me on the way to the Office!!!!malcolmg said:
David, I was joking so hopefully did not upset you in any way. No Betts on west coast but they built good houses. We certainly don't appreciate how lucky we are, given location etc yet we get houses for a fraction of the prices down south and none of the overcrowding and packed roads to put up withDavidL said:malcolmg said:
I have similar , minus conservatory, ensuite , cloakroom and countryside views , will not be much above £200K on a good day. Bet its not as big and palatial as yours though David.DavidL said:
I have a 4 bedroom detached house with front and back gardens, a garage, a study, a conservatory with views of the hills and a drive way big enough for 3 cars. Nice neighbours too. £300K on a good day.Barnesian said:
I live on the first floor of a five storey mansion block in Barnes. It was built in 1908. Very solid and soundproof. We have a balcony with table and chairs where I smoke a cigar, sipping my cognac surveying the Barnes scene. It has a rather nice entrance and staircase at the front and a more scruffy servant staircase at the back that our porter uses. It is multinational with young and old. Our frequent parties in the communal gardens are spent moaning about Brexit (as well as drinking). I know all my neighbours and it has the feel of a grand Cambridge college staircase. Highly recommended. About £1 million per apartment.Cyclefree said:
Agree with this. I grew up in such a home in Italy and it was great. Well built mansion blocks, particularly if you "green" them with roof terraces and balconies, can be a good alternative and make a sensible use of the space we already have within cities.AlastairMeeks said:
Needs not wants. Anyway, a lot of it is about poverty of imagination. Courtyard blocks are common across much of Europe, use space very efficiently and can be very stylish.ydoethur said:RochdalePioneers said:
The key is to build them well rather than the shoddy gimcrack flats that too many large houses have been turned into.
Only busy if you go into Glasgow at commuting times, which I never do nowadays.0 -
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Was it the guy with the flag walking in front that upset you, make your horse fidget.Big_G_NorthWales said:
When I was working I used to get upset if there was a car in front of me on the way to the Office!!!!malcolmg said:
David, I was joking so hopefully did not upset you in any way. No Betts on west coast but they built good houses. We certainly don't appreciate how lucky we are, given location etc yet we get houses for a fraction of the prices down south and none of the overcrowding and packed roads to put up withDavidL said:
Nothing palatial about this Malcolm. It's a glorified Betts Box from the early 90s. But house prices are not the problem in Scotland outside the posher parts of Edinburgh. The problem is not enough people earning sufficient to build up deposits and pay the mortgage. At the moment house builders could build plenty more houses on already approved sites if the demand was there.malcolmg said:
I have similar , minus conservatory, ensuite , cloakroom and countryside views , will not be much above £200K on a good day. Bet its not as big and palatial as yours though David.DavidL said:
I have a 4 bedroom detached house with front and back gardens, a garage, a study, a conservatory with views of the hills and a drive way big enough for 3 cars. Nice neighbours too. £300K on a good day.Barnesian said:Cyclefree said:
Agree with this. I grew up in such a home in Italy and it was great. Well built mansion blocks, particularly if you "green" them with roof terraces and balconies, can be a good alternative and make a sensible use of the space we already have within cities.AlastairMeeks said:
Needs not wants. Anyway, a lot of it is about poverty of imagination. Courtyard blocks are common across much of Europe, use space very efficiently and can be very stylish.ydoethur said:RochdalePioneers said:
The key is to build them well rather than the shoddy gimcrack flats that too many large houses have been turned into.0 -
As we are on the subject, me and my girlfriend have just purchased a 3 bedroom new-build on the outskirts of Newcastle upon Tyne. £220k. Cant wait for it to be built!0
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What article 7 actually says:calum said:
1. On a reasoned proposal by one third of the Member States, by the European Parliament or by the European Commission, the Council, acting by a majority of four fifths of its members after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine that there is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2. Before making such a determination, the Council shall hear the Member State in question and may address recommendations to it, acting in accordance with the same procedure. The Council shall regularly verify that the grounds on which such a determination was made continue to apply.
2. The European Council, acting by unanimity on a proposal by one third of the Member States or by the European Commission and after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine the existence of a serious and persistent breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2 after inviting the Member State in question to submit its observations.
3. Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide to suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Treaties to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of the representative of the government of that Member State in the Council. In doing so, the Council shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons.
The obligations of the Member State in question under the Treaties shall in any case continue to be binding on that State.
4. The Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide subsequently to vary or revoke measures taken under paragraph 3 in response to changes in the situation which led to their being imposed.
5. The voting arrangements applying to the European Parliament, the European Council and the Council for the purposes of this Article are laid down in Article 354of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
0 -
St Albans to UCL seems to be a commute of well under an hour :-)Someone said:
You think students prefer to be paying a fortune to live in a hovel ? You think academic staff like to have a long commute to Bloomsbury or Kensington ?
Do these Metropolitans even know that they are born?
Perhaps that helps explain why we have a chorus of complaints about investment outside London, whilst a strange chorus of silence about the £10s of billions thrown at eg Cross Rail.
(I hope I have my blockquotes right)0 -
Good one but the one and only time I have been on a horse it lasted less than 30 seconds as I fell offmalcolmg said:
Was it the guy with the flag walking in front that upset you, make your horse fidget.Big_G_NorthWales said:
When I was working I used to get upset if there was a car in front of me on the way to the Office!!!!malcolmg said:
David, I was joking so hopefully did not upset you in any way. No Betts on west coast but they built good houses. We certainly don't appreciate how lucky we are, given location etc yet we get houses for a fraction of the prices down south and none of the overcrowding and packed roads to put up withDavidL said:
Nothing palatial about this Malcolm. It's a glorified Betts Box from the early 90s. But house prices are not the problem in Scotland outside the posher parts of Edinburgh. The problem is not enough people earning sufficient to build up deposits and pay the mortgage. At the moment house builders could build plenty more houses on already approved sites if the demand was there.malcolmg said:
I have similar , minus conservatory, ensuite , cloakroom and countryside views , will not be much above £200K on a good day. Bet its not as big and palatial as yours though David.DavidL said:
I have a 4 bedroom detached house with front and back gardens, a garage, a study, a conservatory with views of the hills and a drive way big enough for 3 cars. Nice neighbours too. £300K on a good day.Barnesian said:Cyclefree said:
Agree with this. I grew up in such a home in Italy and it was great. Well built mansion blocks, particularly if you "green" them with roof terraces and balconies, can be a good alternative and make a sensible use of the space we already have within cities.AlastairMeeks said:
Needs not wants. Anyway, a lot of it is about poverty of imagination. Courtyard blocks are common across much of Europe, use space very efficiently and can be very stylish.ydoethur said:RochdalePioneers said:
The key is to build them well rather than the shoddy gimcrack flats that too many large houses have been turned into.0 -
So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plansThomasNashe said:
International students, in particular, want to study in London.AlastairMeeks said:
I doubt the students who come to study in one of the world's great metropolises are going to be enthused if their campus is moved to St Mary Mead.The_Apocalypse said:
This.YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Since all the out of London universities are opening campuses in London, the demand to study in London seems buoyant.0 -
Passing Finsbury on the tube. What a dump lol0
-
@YBarddCwsc
I think the dynamic is a bit different in this country. The classic case you describe would be Lampeter, which appears to be being run down prior to expected closure because it's so remote it can't attract students. In England, I'm guessing although I can't prove t that the smallest university town would be Lichfield (as Hartpury is not really a university and is a special case anyway) which is also being run down prior to closure and everything moved to Stoke. Otherwise all England's universities seem to be in fair-sized towns - at 50,000 Durham is hardly small. Even in Scotland the universities are either in largish places (Inverness) or have decent transport links (Stirling) or are very special and unique and attract students by trading on that (St Andrews).0 -
My wife just watching Sky news this morning - ' shocking, absolutely shocking'
I think that will be the response Europe wide
Shameful - 38 injured so far0 -
Universities are not public institutions.Charles said:
So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plansThomasNashe said:
International students, in particular, want to study in London.AlastairMeeks said:
I doubt the students who come to study in one of the world's great metropolises are going to be enthused if their campus is moved to St Mary Mead.The_Apocalypse said:
This.YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Since all the out of London universities are opening campuses in London, the demand to study in London seems buoyant.0 -
David Davis and JRM both done well with Luntz focus group of Tories and floating votes. Hammond done very badly with the same focus group, 'dull, boring and bland' and no compassion0
-
GoodHYUFD said:David Davis and JRM both done well with Luntz focus group of Tories and floating votes
0 -
Suspect if you moved out of London and reduced the fees you would still get significant demand. The reduction in costs would also allow for the reduction in domestic feesDavidL said:
You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Well, its a view.0 -
I wonder whether this Catalonia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.0 -
Boris did very well initially but less well on his post Queen's speech interview.
Rudd not seen as leadership material0 -
I think that's pitching it strong. Those who believe Scotland would be better governed away from England are not going to be convinced otherwise merely because they have just been reminded that with all its faults the government in London respects their democratic freedom.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalonia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
It's making Catalan independence a racing certainty, however.0 -
It should be noted that HS2, of which construction is to start in London, is already being used as a reason as to why CrossRail2 is 'necessary'.MattW said:
St Albans to UCL seems to be a commute of well under an hour :-)Someone said:
You think students prefer to be paying a fortune to live in a hovel ? You think academic staff like to have a long commute to Bloomsbury or Kensington ?
Do these Metropolitans even know that they are born?
Perhaps that helps explain why we have a chorus of complaints about investment outside London, whilst a strange chorus of silence about the £10s of billions thrown at eg Cross Rail.
(I hope I have my blockquotes right)
0 -
And as the EU moves towards becoming a single country, then regions within existing countries are likely to split off and want to do their own thing.OchEye said:
The regions of France, Italy, Netherlands, the Landers of Germany and others would be encouraged to try and secede. The administration of the now 27 is difficult enough - how much more "fun" would it be for a hundred or so.....nichomar said:
Ithink the Spanish goverment think if Catolonia was to achieve independace then who next, the Basque Region, Galacia even Valencia (unlikely imo) the shadow of Franco still lingers and infuences decisions be it a fear of it returning or as an excuse to make it happen.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well the EU is holding firm behind them but then the EU has never really had much truck with democracy anyway.kle4 said:It is always a bit awkward given our culture elevates democratic will and mandate above nearly all else - certainly above following the rules, man, as any pop culture tells us - that doing so is intrinsically 'the right thing' even against the rules, it is awkward when we, or in this case Spain, responds so aggressively to an attempt to vote, even if it is indeed against the law and given the disruptions hardly a credible vote.
Internationally I Think southam is right this nets them more support, but governments are holding firm behind Spain I think?
Spain must realise that shooting baton rounds at voters is not going to go down well internationally.0 -
Focus group eliminates Hammond and Rudd then Boris.
They also do not want May to lead the party into the next general election, Luntz final focus group decision is a split between JRM and David Davis to lead the Tories into the next general election 12 each0 -
But according to junker if only the EU was a much closer union all these problems will go away...Sandpit said:
And as the EU moves towards becoming a single country, then regions within existing countries are likely to split off and want to do their own thing.OchEye said:
The regions of France, Italy, Netherlands, the Landers of Germany and others would be encouraged to try and secede. The administration of the now 27 is difficult enough - how much more "fun" would it be for a hundred or so.....nichomar said:
Ithink the Spanish goverment think if Catolonia was to achieve independace then who next, the Basque Region, Galacia even Valencia (unlikely imo) the shadow of Franco still lingers and infuences decisions be it a fear of it returning or as an excuse to make it happen.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well the EU is holding firm behind them but then the EU has never really had much truck with democracy anyway.kle4 said:It is always a bit awkward given our culture elevates democratic will and mandate above nearly all else - certainly above following the rules, man, as any pop culture tells us - that doing so is intrinsically 'the right thing' even against the rules, it is awkward when we, or in this case Spain, responds so aggressively to an attempt to vote, even if it is indeed against the law and given the disruptions hardly a credible vote.
Internationally I Think southam is right this nets them more support, but governments are holding firm behind Spain I think?
Spain must realise that shooting baton rounds at voters is not going to go down well internationally.0 -
Interesting if they were put to the membersHYUFD said:Focus group eliminates Hammond and Rudd then Boris.
They also do not want May to lead the party into the next general election, Luntz final focus group decision is a split between JRM and David Davis to lead the Tories into the next general election 12 each0 -
Which raises the question what are Universities for? Are they for the benefit of wealthy young people from overseas to fill their Instagram with pictures of Merrie Olde London. Or are they to educate the populace and build a stronger economy?Charles said:
So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plansThomasNashe said:
International students, in particular, want to study in London.AlastairMeeks said:
I doubt the students who come to study in one of the world's great metropolises are going to be enthused if their campus is moved to St Mary Mead.The_Apocalypse said:
This.YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Since all the out of London universities are opening campuses in London, the demand to study in London seems buoyant.
My view is that there is not much point in having world class institutions like LSE and Imperial as well as their minor associates if British students can't even consider attending.
Besides would foreigners be greatly put off if they find themselves in Bromley or Enfield rather than Bloomsbury?0 -
The 'gold, silver, bronze' ratings of the Teaching Excellence Framework are probably the most meaningless metric that the Government has ever dreamt up, but it'll be interesting to see if the low ratings of most London institutions will have any impact on their recruitment of students (both domestic and international). I suspect it won't, but it will be worth watching what happens to LSE, especially, in the wake of their bronze.Charles said:
Suspect if you moved out of London and reduced the fees you would still get significant demand. The reduction in costs would also allow for the reduction in domestic feesDavidL said:
You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Well, its a view.0 -
No government in British history has lost its majority, stayed in power and then got it back again at the next election. For this government to be the first, it has to do something revolutionary and not just tinker.
At the same time no opposition in British history has ever won a majority without being at least 15 points ahead in the polls between elections. The striking thing about today's Yougov poll is that Labour is only 1 point ahead, something which even Neil Kinnock and Ed Miliband bettered.
All this suggests that the most likely outcome of the next election is a hung parliament with Labour as the biggest party -unless the Tories do something revolutionarty to buck history.0 -
Yes they are, in the wider sense of the word.ydoethur said:
Universities are not public institutions.Charles said:
So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plansThomasNashe said:
International students, in particular, want to study in London.AlastairMeeks said:
I doubt the students who come to study in one of the world's great metropolises are going to be enthused if their campus is moved to St Mary Mead.The_Apocalypse said:
This.YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Since all the out of London universities are opening campuses in London, the demand to study in London seems buoyant.0 -
There would be a certain irony if David Davis, who emphasised his pro-EPP stance in the 2005 leadership election before losing to a more charismatic politician who wanted to smash it, reversed the process by riding Brexit to seize the premiership ahead of his more charismatic rivals.HYUFD said:Focus group eliminates Hammond and Rudd then Boris.
They also do not want May to lead the party into the next general election, Luntz final focus group decision is a split between JRM and David Davis to lead the Tories into the next general election 12 each0 -
I agree. I don't think it will change many Scot's minds about how they would vote in another referendum but I do think it makes us all grateful that the overwhelming majority of people across the UK can see the rights and wrongs of this and recognise that people must be allowed to have their say even if we don't necessarily like the result.ydoethur said:
I think that's pitching it strong. Those who believe Scotland would be better governed away from England are not going to be convinced otherwise merely because they have just been reminded that with all its faults the government in London respects their democratic freedom.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalonia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
It's making Catalan independence a racing certainty, however.
I would hope and expect the same applies to most of Europe. It strikes me that Spain is the exception rather than the rule in this case.0 -
It would also be a reversal of the 2005 Luntz where David Cameron beat David Davisydoethur said:
There would be a certain irony if David Davis, who emphasised his pro-EPP stance in the 2005 leadership election before losing to a more charismatic politician who wanted to smash it, reversed the process by riding Brexit to seize the premiership ahead of his more charismatic rivals.HYUFD said:Focus group eliminates Hammond and Rudd then Boris.
They also do not want May to lead the party into the next general election, Luntz final focus group decision is a split between JRM and David Davis to lead the Tories into the next general election 12 each0 -
Do not forget that in places like Durham perhaps 20% (nearly 30% if they all live in the town from the University alone) or more of the population are full-time students.ydoethur said:@YBarddCwsc
I think the dynamic is a bit different in this country. The classic case you describe would be Lampeter, which appears to be being run down prior to expected closure because it's so remote it can't attract students. In England, I'm guessing although I can't prove t that the smallest university town would be Lichfield (as Hartpury is not really a university and is a special case anyway) which is also being run down prior to closure and everything moved to Stoke. Otherwise all England's universities seem to be in fair-sized towns - at 50,000 Durham is hardly small. Even in Scotland the universities are either in largish places (Inverness) or have decent transport links (Stirling) or are very special and unique and attract students by trading on that (St Andrews).
0 -
In a very wide sense of the word. The government sets a regulatory framework but it cannot actually force them to do anything. They are private charitable trusts and are entitled to act as they see fit.Charles said:
Yes they are, in the wider sense of the word.ydoethur said:
Universities are not public institutions.Charles said:
So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plansThomasNashe said:
International students, in particular, want to study in London.AlastairMeeks said:
I doubt the students who come to study in one of the world's great metropolises are going to be enthused if their campus is moved to St Mary Mead.The_Apocalypse said:
This.YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Since all the out of London universities are opening campuses in London, the demand to study in London seems buoyant.
We saw that when that dodgy old git Leighton Andrews tried to force through multiple mergers in Welsh HE and couldn't manage it - he achieved precisely one that wouldn't have happened anyway and that was only because the VC at Newport fell ill at the wrong moment.0 -
Is it different to what you see from the ECML ?Pulpstar said:Passing Finsbury on the tube. What a dump lol
0 -
That's excluding the student population.MattW said:
Do not forget that in places like Durham perhaps 20% (nearly 30% if they all live in the town from the University alone) or more of the population are full-time students.ydoethur said:@YBarddCwsc
I think the dynamic is a bit different in this country. The classic case you describe would be Lampeter, which appears to be being run down prior to expected closure because it's so remote it can't attract students. In England, I'm guessing although I can't prove t that the smallest university town would be Lichfield (as Hartpury is not really a university and is a special case anyway) which is also being run down prior to closure and everything moved to Stoke. Otherwise all England's universities seem to be in fair-sized towns - at 50,000 Durham is hardly small. Even in Scotland the universities are either in largish places (Inverness) or have decent transport links (Stirling) or are very special and unique and attract students by trading on that (St Andrews).
I was at Aberystwyth - even higher ratio.0 -
I wouldn't go quite as far as you, but agree with the general view. Universities are about educating our own (and research) not earning fees from abroad. Clearly there is a role for international students and, even more so, academics but at the moment the balance is wrongdixiedean said:
Which raises the question what are Universities for? Are they for the benefit of wealthy young people from overseas to fill their Instagram with pictures of Merrie Olde London. Or are they to educate the populace and build a stronger economy?Charles said:
So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plansThomasNashe said:
International students, in particular, want to study in London.AlastairMeeks said:
I doubt the students who come to study in one of the world's great metropolises are going to be enthused if their campus is moved to St Mary Mead.The_Apocalypse said:
This.YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South Eastir populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Since all the out of London universities are opening campuses in London, the demand to study in London seems buoyant.
My view is that there is not much point in having world class institutions like LSE and Imperial as well as their minor associates if British students can't even consider attending.
Besides would foreigners be greatly put off if they find themselves in Bromley or Enfield rather than Bloomsbury?0 -
In some ways a Corbyn minority government propped up by the SNP and the LDs with the Tories having a real chance of winning the general election after would be better for the blues than a narrow Tory win next time followed by a landslide Labour win under a non Corbyn leader the general election after and 10-15 years of Labour government.stevef said:No government in British history has lost its majority, stayed in power and then got it back again at the next election. For this government to be the first, it has to do something revolutionary and not just tinker.
At the same time no opposition in British history has ever won a majority without being at least 15 points ahead in the polls between elections. The striking thing about today's Yougov poll is that Labour is only 1 point ahead, something which even Neil Kinnock and Ed Miliband bettered.
All this suggests that the most likely outcome of the next election is a hung parliament with Labour as the biggest party -unless the Tories do something revolutionarty to buck history.
However there is no question the latter would be better for the country than the former.0 -
Yes and not a squeak from our politicians or the EU. You expect that from the right wing Tories , but what weasels those great internationalists of labour are.Big_G_NorthWales said:My wife just watching Sky news this morning - ' shocking, absolutely shocking'
I think that will be the response Europe wide
Shameful - 38 injured so far0 -
Scottish Labour appear not to be in the 'majority', lots of tweets about respecting the law & illegal referendums.Richard_Tyndall said:
I agree. I don't think it will change many Scot's minds about how they would vote in another referendum but I do think it makes us all grateful that the overwhelming majority of people across the UK can see the rights and wrongs of this and recognise that people must be allowed to have their say even if we don't necessarily like the result.ydoethur said:
I think that's pitching it strong. Those who believe Scotland would be better governed away from England are not going to be convinced otherwise merely because they have just been reminded that with all its faults the government in London respects their democratic freedom.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalonia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
It's making Catalan independence a racing certainty, however.
I would hope and expect the same applies to most of Europe. It strikes me that Spain is the exception rather than the rule in this case.
Has Internationalist Jez commented yet?0 -
The TEF is awful, it somehow tries to measure the quality of the education universities provide without measuring the quality of teaching.ThomasNashe said:
The 'gold, silver, bronze' ratings of the Teaching Excellence Framework are probably the most meaningless metric that the Government has ever dreamt up, but it'll be interesting to see if the low ratings of most London institutions will have any impact on their recruitment of students (both domestic and international). I suspect it won't, but it will be worth watching what happens to LSE, especially, in the wake of their bronze.Charles said:
Suspect if you moved out of London and reduced the fees you would still get significant demand. The reduction in costs would also allow for the reduction in domestic feesDavidL said:
You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Well, its a view.0 -
You are talking about ownership,ydoethur said:
In a very wide sense of the word. The government sets a regulatory framework but it cannot actually force them to do anything. They are private charitable trusts and are entitled to act as they see fit.Charles said:
Yes they are, in the wider sense of the word.ydoethur said:
Universities are not public institutions.Charles said:
So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plansThomasNashe said:
International students, in particular, want to study in London.AlastairMeeks said:
I doubt the students who come to study in one of the world's great metropolises are going to be enthused if their campus is moved to St Mary Mead.The_Apocalypse said:
This.YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
Inpopulations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Since all the out of London universities are opening campuses in London, the demand to study in London seems buoyant.
We saw that when that dodgy old git Leighton Andrews tried to force through multiple mergers in Welsh HE and couldn't manage it - he achieved precisely one that wouldn't have happened anyway and that was only because the VC at Newport fell ill at the wrong moment.
I am referring to their stakeholders.
If they want to be fully private: fine. But why should the government help fund them via student fee support?0 -
Would be with David Davis the moderate candidate ironically, the reverse of 2005 when he was the more rightwing candidate. Though also some desire for a fresh faceBig_G_NorthWales said:
Interesting if they were put to the membersHYUFD said:Focus group eliminates Hammond and Rudd then Boris.
They also do not want May to lead the party into the next general election, Luntz final focus group decision is a split between JRM and David Davis to lead the Tories into the next general election 12 each0 -
Yep, do it the other way around. Charge £15k fees on liberal arts degrees, to make STEM degrees £3k. We need STEM graduates so should incentivise them.Richard_Tyndall said:
They can object but it wouldn't be 'quite rightly'. Why should the tax payer subsidise students studying courses that will bring only marginal benefit to the country rather than those which have real practical benefits. If we were not short of STEM graduates you would perhaps have a point but when both money and those with the right skills are lacking it is surely the job of the Government to target the taxpayer's money to where it would best benefit the country.ThomasNashe said:
Yes, but despite all that many students still prefer to study history, literature etc. They can quite rightly object to their choices being used to cross-subsidise STEM subjects.HYUFD said:
Which is why arts degree fees should be cut given they are both cheaper to run and have a lower graduate earnings premium and Hammond is sensibly looking at this while subsidising STEM courses which would still charge £9000ydoethur said:
It doesn't. Usually it costs about £2-3,000.not_on_fire said:Surely the other key question is why it costs £9000 a year for a history degree with 10 hours a week (over about 30 weeks) of contact time?
However, it can cost up to £30,000 to train a science graduate, and since they can't charge full fees for that, they need to recruit as many cheaper students in history, English, politics, business, art etc to make up the shortfall.
The other elephant in the room is Education - strangely, that's one of the more expensive degrees because of fees paid to schools. Which is of course why the DfE are frantically closing down education departments and moving to SCITT routes, even though they know this is a less effective way of training on the whole.0 -
It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalnia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.0 -
A question quite a number of Russell Group institutions appear to be asking if my sources are to be believed given the inadequacy of the fee support, or tuition grant.Charles said:You are talking about ownership,
I am referring to their stakeholders.
If they want to be fully private: fine. But why should the government help fund them via student fee support?0 -
The SNP got just 37% in June, down from 50% in 2015.malcolmg said:
It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalnia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
Canada did eventually give Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995 but only 15 years after the first in 1980.
On that basis if there is to be a second Scottish independence referendum it will not be until 2029.0 -
To be accurate, they voted by a narrow majority to petition Westminster for a second ballot.malcolmg said:
It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalnia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
Then came the election and they dropped the request.
I very much doubt however if Theresa May would have ordered riot police to shoot at pro-independence voters. She would just have ignored the result unless it was something like 60% of eligible voters in favour.0 -
No, that is ridiculous, we need some arts students to run theatres, museums, galleries, teach, research and staff the creative industries etc. Given on average they earn significantly less than STEM students their fees should be less than those for STEM students. However government should subsidise STEM courses more than arts courses as the country really needs them and they cost more to runSandpit said:
Yep, do it the other way around. Charge £15k fees on liberal arts degrees, to make STEM degrees £3k. We need STEM graduates so should incentivise them.Richard_Tyndall said:
They can object but it wouldn't be 'quite rightly'. Why should the tax payer subsidise students studying courses that will bring only marginal benefit to the country rather than those which have real practical benefits. If we were not short of STEM graduates you would perhaps have a point but when both money and those with the right skills are lacking it is surely the job of the Government to target the taxpayer's money to where it would best benefit the country.ThomasNashe said:
Yes, but despite all that many students still prefer to study history, literature etc. They can quite rightly object to their choices being used to cross-subsidise STEM subjects.HYUFD said:
Which is why arts degree fees should be cut given they are both cheaper to run and have a lower graduate earnings premium and Hammond is sensibly looking at this while subsidising STEM courses which would still charge £9000ydoethur said:
It doesn't. Usually it costs about £2-3,000.not_on_fire said:Surely the other key question is why it costs £9000 a year for a history degree with 10 hours a week (over about 30 weeks) of contact time?
However, it can cost up to £30,000 to train a science graduate, and since they can't charge full fees for that, they need to recruit as many cheaper students in history, English, politics, business, art etc to make up the shortfall.
The other elephant in the room is Education - strangely, that's one of the more expensive degrees because of fees paid to schools. Which is of course why the DfE are frantically closing down education departments and moving to SCITT routes, even though they know this is a less effective way of training on the whole.0 -
Teaching has never been emphasised as a priority at LSE. I had a tutor who when I went to ask about an essay took me to the window and pointed. There is the library. You will find the answers there.ThomasNashe said:
The 'gold, silver, bronze' ratings of the Teaching Excellence Framework are probably the most meaningless metric that the Government has ever dreamt up, but it'll be interesting to see if the low ratings of most London institutions will have any impact on their recruitment of students (both domestic and international). I suspect it won't, but it will be worth watching what happens to LSE, especially, in the wake of their bronze.Charles said:
Suspect if you moved out of London and reduced the fees you would still get significant demand. The reduction in costs would also allow for the reduction in domestic feesDavidL said:
You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?YBarddCwsc said:
To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).dixiedean said:
+1YBarddCwsc said:It is yet again worth pointing out that housing remains very affordable in most of the country.
The problems are largely confined to the South East.
In fact, some parts of the country are de-populating. & that means there are empty homes. despite the huge increase in UK population over the last fifty years, some parts of the country have nonetheless seen their populations decline.
There are many, many companies & organisations based in London who just do not need to be there and should move out.
Absolutely.
I would only add that there are many people working in London who could do their jobs cheaper and more efficiently from a cheaper home outside London. How many daily commuters actually, physically need to be there?
We need to prioritise home working as an aspect of this problem
There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.
They should all move out.
The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.
They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.
Well, its a view.0 -
To slightly misquote the greatest Scotsman of them all, these Scottish generations are making an old man of me!HYUFD said:
The SNP got just 37% in June, down from 50% in 2015.malcolmg said:
It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalnia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
Canada did eventually give Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995 but only 15 years after the first in 1980.
On that basis if there is to be a second Scottish independence referendum it will not be until 2029.0 -
I hadn't seen that. Very sad that they are on the wrong side of the moral line on this.Theuniondivvie said:
Scottish Labour appear not to be in the 'majority', lots of tweets about respecting the law & illegal referendums.Richard_Tyndall said:
I agree. I don't think it will change many Scot's minds about how they would vote in another referendum but I do think it makes us all grateful that the overwhelming majority of people across the UK can see the rights and wrongs of this and recognise that people must be allowed to have their say even if we don't necessarily like the result.ydoethur said:
I think that's pitching it strong. Those who believe Scotland would be better governed away from England are not going to be convinced otherwise merely because they have just been reminded that with all its faults the government in London respects their democratic freedom.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalonia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
It's making Catalan independence a racing certainty, however.
I would hope and expect the same applies to most of Europe. It strikes me that Spain is the exception rather than the rule in this case.
Has Internationalist Jez commented yet?0 -
I think that the cathedral city of St Albans would love to have a university of its own. The law faculty of the University of Hertfordshire used to be based in St Albans, due to St Albans having a Crown Court, but that moved to Hatfield after the new campus opened.
However cheap house prices for students and academics would not be a good reason, as St Albans has high prices due to the quick and easy Thameslink service to St Pancras (handy for the Crick Institute) and onwards to the City and then London Bridge (from 2018).
However it does has good culture. Can I beg forgiveness for plugging a concert next Saturday (7 October) in the Cathedral in which I am singing. Music written this decade, one piece based on Keats’ Ode to a Nightingale, and the other on the life of Alan Turing.
https://www.stalbanscathedral.org/whatson/music/codebreaker
0 -
So I'll put you down as a maybe?malcolmg said:
It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalnia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.0 -
Once there is an EU army then this will be the scene at any former country wanting to leave the EU.Sandpit said:
And as the EU moves towards becoming a single country, then regions within existing countries are likely to split off and want to do their own thing.OchEye said:
The regions of France, Italy, Netherlands, the Landers of Germany and others would be encouraged to try and secede. The administration of the now 27 is difficult enough - how much more "fun" would it be for a hundred or so.....nichomar said:
Ithink the Spanish goverment think if Catolonia was to achieve independace then who next, the Basque Region, Galacia even Valencia (unlikely imo) the shadow of Franco still lingers and infuences decisions be it a fear of it returning or as an excuse to make it happen.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well the EU is holding firm behind them but then the EU has never really had much truck with democracy anyway.kle4 said:It is always a bit awkward given our culture elevates democratic will and mandate above nearly all else - certainly above following the rules, man, as any pop culture tells us - that doing so is intrinsically 'the right thing' even against the rules, it is awkward when we, or in this case Spain, responds so aggressively to an attempt to vote, even if it is indeed against the law and given the disruptions hardly a credible vote.
Internationally I Think southam is right this nets them more support, but governments are holding firm behind Spain I think?
Spain must realise that shooting baton rounds at voters is not going to go down well internationally.0 -
Thanks, I was wondering why there wasn't much condemnation from the Tories or the Daily Mail. Reminds me of the "Lurve In" by Thatcher and Dacre with Pinochet.Theuniondivvie said:
Madrid government = Partido Popular = right wing conservatives. PP spend a lot of time denying that they're the heirs to Franco; draw your own conclusions.OchEye said:
Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
You thick, no mention of SNP. The Scottish parliament voted by a majority to have a second referendumHYUFD said:
The SNP got just 37% in June, down from 50% in 2015.malcolmg said:
It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalnia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
Canada did eventually give Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995 but only 15 years after the first in 1980.
On that basis if there is to be a second Scottish independence referendum it will not be until 2029.
PS: to cover ydoethur's pedantry , it was to petition our Lords and Masters at Westminster to allow us the power to be able to think for ourselves.0 -
Wow, good to see the real story (rather than Uber’s expensive spin) get through to the public.bigjohnowls said:Britain Elects @britainelects 49m49 minutes ago
More
Londoners // The decision to revoke Uber's license was the...
Right decision: 43%
Wrong decision: 31%0 -
Its the top story on the daily mail website and they have embedded the worst of the videos and images. They are hardly sweeping it under the carpet.OchEye said:
Thanks, I was wondering why there wasn't much condemnation from the Tories or the Daily Mail. Reminds me of the "Lurve In" by Thatcher and Dacre with Pinochet.Theuniondivvie said:
Madrid government = Partido Popular = right wing conservatives. PP spend a lot of time denying that they're the heirs to Franco; draw your own conclusions.OchEye said:
Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
Tbf Kezia seems to have recovered her moral compass.Richard_Tyndall said:
I hadn't seen that. Very sad that they are on the wrong side of the moral line on this.Theuniondivvie said:
Scottish Labour appear not to be in the 'majority', lots of tweets about respecting the law & illegal referendums.Richard_Tyndall said:
I agree. I don't think it will change many Scot's minds about how they would vote in another referendum but I do think it makes us all grateful that the overwhelming majority of people across the UK can see the rights and wrongs of this and recognise that people must be allowed to have their say even if we don't necessarily like the result.ydoethur said:
I think that's pitching it strong. Those who believe Scotland would be better governed away from England are not going to be convinced otherwise merely because they have just been reminded that with all its faults the government in London respects their democratic freedom.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalonia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
It's making Catalan independence a racing certainty, however.
I would hope and expect the same applies to most of Europe. It strikes me that Spain is the exception rather than the rule in this case.
Has Internationalist Jez commented yet?
https://twitter.com/kezdugdale/status/9144453949936967690 -
The Buckingham model works well in my view - not right for everyone but an interesting optionydoethur said:
A question quite a number of Russell Group institutions appear to be asking if my sources are to be believed given the inadequacy of the fee support, or tuition grant.Charles said:You are talking about ownership,
I am referring to their stakeholders.
If they want to be fully private: fine. But why should the government help fund them via student fee support?0 -
Unfortunately Spain is giving a whole new meaning to Malcolm X's famous question about ballots or bullets. They're merging the two.CopperSulphate said:
Once there is an EU army then this will be the scene at any former country wanting to leave the EU.Sandpit said:
And as the EU moves towards becoming a single country, then regions within existing countries are likely to split off and want to do their own thing.OchEye said:
The regions of France, Italy, Netherlands, the Landers of Germany and others would be encouraged to try and secede. The administration of the now 27 is difficult enough - how much more "fun" would it be for a hundred or so.....nichomar said:
Ithink the Spanish goverment think if Catolonia was to achieve independace then who next, the Basque Region, Galacia even Valencia (unlikely imo) the shadow of Franco still lingers and infuences decisions be it a fear of it returning or as an excuse to make it happen.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well the EU is holding firm behind them but then the EU has never really had much truck with democracy anyway.kle4 said:It is always a bit awkward given our culture elevates democratic will and mandate above nearly all else - certainly above following the rules, man, as any pop culture tells us - that doing so is intrinsically 'the right thing' even against the rules, it is awkward when we, or in this case Spain, responds so aggressively to an attempt to vote, even if it is indeed against the law and given the disruptions hardly a credible vote.
Internationally I Think southam is right this nets them more support, but governments are holding firm behind Spain I think?
Spain must realise that shooting baton rounds at voters is not going to go down well internationally.
Bearing in mind that the entire referendum could have been avoided if Rajoy hadn't reneged on that deal about new powers, this is an utter shambles that should cause the collapse of the Spanish government.0 -
Nah. Just realpolitik. We can't afford to piss off Spain just nowOchEye said:
Thanks, I was wondering why there wasn't much condemnation from the Tories or the Daily Mail. Reminds me of the "Lurve In" by Thatcher and Dacre with Pinochet.Theuniondivvie said:
Madrid government = Partido Popular = right wing conservatives. PP spend a lot of time denying that they're the heirs to Franco; draw your own conclusions.OchEye said:
Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?FrancisUrquhart said:Fookin hell...it is like scenes from Venezuela
https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/spanish-police-attack-catalan-voters/0 -
It will likely be another generation or two before the question is asked againydoethur said:
To slightly misquote the greatest Scotsman of them all, these Scottish generations are making an old man of me!HYUFD said:
The SNP got just 37% in June, down from 50% in 2015.malcolmg said:
It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.CopperSulphate said:I wonder whether this Catalnia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
Canada did eventually give Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995 but only 15 years after the first in 1980.
On that basis if there is to be a second Scottish independence referendum it will not be until 2029.0 -
Guardian just put up another shocking video.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live0
