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Well, "around" two years hardly equates to any number less than two years+1 second.HYUFD said:
So he has not contradicted her, just made clear that a transition period of 'around' two years must 'not be a second more' than two yearsrottenborough said:
Seems to me Boris has broken Cabinet collective responsibility. The words May said in Florence, which presumably accurately represent what was agreed by that morning's Cabinet were:HYUFD said:
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
"As of today, these considerations point to an implementation period of around two years."
Boris has stated it cannot be "a second more" than two years.
But it is a minor quibble.
The context however, as he well knows, means he is just throwing more fuel on the burning platform.0 -
No, he's not. He's bound by collective responsibilityHYUFD said:
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
Nope. Collective responsibility precludes itHYUFD said:
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
The 'two years and not a day more' is an artificial red line. Theresa May said 'about' two years, or something similar and the difference is clearly Spring / Summer 2021. There is no good reason why the end of March should be the deadline. The deal does need signing off by parliament before the election, and in reality, that probably means before the summer 2021 recess - leaving it until the autumn would mean that final session would be dominated by Brexit divisions and the conference couldn't be used to launch the long election campaign and put the Brexit extraction process behind. But that means a vote no later than June, which means negotiations should be able to go on until at least May. By contrast, Boris' timetable would mean a deadline before Easter 2021 (which falls on April 4).HYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
You might well be right (there's JRM too - I can't decide which is worse, though both are awful).rottenborough said:
Never say never. I not so sure. Seems to me that Boris is likely to be the only candidate with the charisma and optimism to take on Corbyn.Benpointer said:
... but too late for Boris by then.rottenborough said:
No, because 1 is flawed. May stays, Brexit is a success. Despite this success, the party knows it needs a fresh face for GE 2021/2 and ditches her.Recidivist said:
Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -Philip_Thompson said:The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.
Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.
View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.
1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.
I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.
"There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."
Amazing though, that your phase "the only candidate with the charisma and optimism to take on Corbyn" doesn't sound bonkers - who'd have thought that six months ago?!0 -
Sadly, nationalism usually does.Philip_Thompson said:
I must have missed that.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have been discussing it. But there is a consensus that it is one of those utterly intractable problems which appears to have its own momentum and is steamrolling inexorably towards bloodshed.Philip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
At that point it kind of went past the discussion stage. All we can do is look on in horror.
I hope it doesn't lead to bloodshed.0 -
As does oppression.Benpointer said:
Sadly, nationalism usually does.Philip_Thompson said:
I must have missed that.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have been discussing it. But there is a consensus that it is one of those utterly intractable problems which appears to have its own momentum and is steamrolling inexorably towards bloodshed.Philip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
At that point it kind of went past the discussion stage. All we can do is look on in horror.
I hope it doesn't lead to bloodshed.0 -
He has not said anything that contradicts the PM, just made clear she has to mean what she saysCharles said:
Nope. Collective responsibility precludes itHYUFD said:
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
The Constitution can be amended by the Cortes to allow a referendum and could have been approved at the last general election by the voters.SouthamObserver said:
The Spanish government did not ban the referendum. The Spanish courts have declared it illegal, which it is under Spanish law. Indeed, there is no country in Europe where such a referendum would be legal. The criticism of the Spanish government is that it allowed things to get this far. It did not have to be this way. Ten years ago Catalan separatists were a relatively small minority. It is the Partido Popular that has turned them into such a powerful force.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
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In the minds of Leave voters it certainly does, many are furious even a two year transition has been agreedrottenborough said:
Well, "around" two years hardly equates to any number less than two years+1 second.HYUFD said:
So he has not contradicted her, just made clear that a transition period of 'around' two years must 'not be a second more' than two yearsrottenborough said:
Seems to me Boris has broken Cabinet collective responsibility. The words May said in Florence, which presumablyHYUFD said:
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
But it is a minor quibble.
The context however, as he well knows, means he is just throwing more fuel on the burning platform.0 -
Floated by who? Fallon has hacked the army, has the marines in his sights and came out with the Ed Miliband's dad wanted to murder the Queen in her bed smear so he is both toxic and (since he reportedly did not want to say it) was not even tough enough to resist Lynton Crosby. Floated by "friends of" Fallon, presumably.rottenborough said:0 -
To most Leave voters two years maximum means two years maximumdavid_herdson said:
The 'two years and not a day more' is an artificial red line. Theresa May said 'about' two years, or something similar and the difference is clearly Spring / Summer 2021. There is no good reason why the end of March should be the deadline. The deal does need signing off by parliament before the election, and in reality, that probably means before the summer 2021 recess - leaving it until the autumn would mean that final session would be dominated by Brexit divisions and the conference couldn't be used to launch the long election campaign and put the Brexit extraction process behind. But that means a vote no later than June, which means negotiations should be able to go on until at least May. By contrast, Boris' timetable would mean a deadline before Easter 2021 (which falls on April 4).HYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
But Theresa May didn't say two years maximum.HYUFD said:
To most Leave voters two years maximum means two years maximumdavid_herdson said:
The 'two years and not a day more' is an artificial red line. Theresa May said 'about' two years, or something similar and the difference is clearly Spring / Summer 2021. There is no good reason why the end of March should be the deadline. The deal does need signing off by parliament before the election, and in reality, that probably means before the summer 2021 recess - leaving it until the autumn would mean that final session would be dominated by Brexit divisions and the conference couldn't be used to launch the long election campaign and put the Brexit extraction process behind. But that means a vote no later than June, which means negotiations should be able to go on until at least May. By contrast, Boris' timetable would mean a deadline before Easter 2021 (which falls on April 4).HYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
"Centrist dads are middle-aged men who cannot come to terms with the world and politics changing," says Matt Zarb-Cousin, who helped popularise the term, which has been flying around among supporters of Jeremy Corbyn at this week's Labour Party conference in Brighton.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41413937
As Trump would say...SADDDDDDDD0 -
For the life of me WHY? They still get what they wanted. Isn't it better that a) to have a smooth change and b) that they hold out a bit of an olive branch to bring as many remainers on baord as possible, for the cohesiveness of the country?HYUFD said:
In the minds of Leave voters it certainly does, many are furious even a two year transition has been agreedrottenborough said:
Well, "around" two years hardly equates to any number less than two years+1 second.HYUFD said:
So he has not contradicted her, just made clear that a transition period of 'around' two years must 'not be a second more' than two yearsrottenborough said:
Seems to me Boris has broken Cabinet collective responsibility. The words May said in Florence, which presumablyHYUFD said:
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:williamglenn said:
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
But it is a minor quibble.
The context however, as he well knows, means he is just throwing more fuel on the burning platform.0 -
But it wasn't, thus the vote is illegal. Just as it would be in every other country in Europe, including the UK.HYUFD said:
The Constitution can be amended by the Cortes to allow a referendum and could have been approved at the last general election by the voters.SouthamObserver said:
The Spanish government did not ban the referendum. The Spanish courts have declared it illegal, which it is under Spanish law. Indeed, there is no country in Europe where such a referendum would be legal. The criticism of the Spanish government is that it allowed things to get this far. It did not have to be this way. Ten years ago Catalan separatists were a relatively small minority. It is the Partido Popular that has turned them into such a powerful force.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
0 -
Problem is someone will have to pay the bill for Corbyn's programme - and it's the so called 'centrist dads' who will be doing so. No wonder they are a little alarmed when the rest of the family is splashing the cash using their credit card.FrancisUrquhart said:"Centrist dads are middle-aged men who cannot come to terms with the world and politics changing," says Matt Zarb-Cousin, who helped popularise the term, which has been flying around among supporters of Jeremy Corbyn at this week's Labour Party conference in Brighton.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41413937
As Trump would say...SADDDDDDDD0 -
Suspicion, I imagine.Benpointer said:
For the life of me WHY? They still get what they wanted. Isn't it better that a) to have a smooth change and b) that they hold out a bit of an olive branch to bring as many remainers on baord as possible, for the cohesiveness of the country?HYUFD said:
In the minds of Leave voters it certainly does, many are furious even a two year transition has been agreedrottenborough said:
Well, "around" two years hardly equates to any number less than two years+1 second.HYUFD said:
So he has not contradicted her, just made clear that a transition period of 'around' two years must 'not be a second more' than two yearsrottenborough said:
Seems to me Boris has broken Cabinet collective responsibility. The words May said in Florence, which presumablyHYUFD said:
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:Stark_Dawning said:williamglenn said:
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
But it is a minor quibble.
The context however, as he well knows, means he is just throwing more fuel on the burning platform.
The idea that a transition could be indefinite puts many off. Remember, many people don't trust politicians.0 -
From my perspective I don't disagree but according to Yougov last week 42% of Leave voters oppose any transition period at all and 73% of Leave voters want a transition period of no more than two yearsBenpointer said:
For the life of me WHY? They still get what they wanted. Isn't it better that a) to have a smooth change and b) that they hold out a bit of an olive branch to bring as many remainers on baord as possible, for the cohesiveness of the country?HYUFD said:
In the minds of Leave voters it certainly does, many are furious even a two year transition has been agreedrottenborough said:
Well, "around" two years hardly equates to any number less than two years+1 second.HYUFD said:
So he has not contradicted her,rottenborough said:
Seems to me Boris has broken Cabinet collective responsibility. The words May said in Florence, which presumablyHYUFD said:
He is Foreign Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have Secretary.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:williamglenn said:
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
But it is a minor quibble.
The context however, as he well knows, means he is just throwing more fuel on the burning platform.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/xdlp14v0de/TimesResults_170922_VI_Trackers_W.pdf (p4)0 -
Which is why Boris said what he said to ensure that is the government's positionwilliamglenn said:
But Theresa May didn't say two years maximum.HYUFD said:
To most Leave voters two years maximum means two years maximumdavid_herdson said:
The 'two years and not a day more' is an artificial red line. Theresa May said 'about' two years, or something similar and the difference is clearly Spring / Summer 2021. There is no good reason why the end of March should be the deadline. The deal does need signing off by parliament before the election, and in reality, that probably means before the summer 2021 recess - leaving it until the autumn would mean that final session would be dominated by Brexit divisions and the conference couldn't be used to launch the long election campaign and put the Brexit extraction process behind. But that means a vote no later than June, which means negotiations should be able to go on until at least May. By contrast, Boris' timetable would mean a deadline before Easter 2021 (which falls on April 4).HYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
SouthamObserver said:
But it wasn't, thus the vote is illegal. Just as it would be in every other country in Europe, including the UK.HYUFD said:
The Constitution can be amended by the Cortes to allow a referendum and could have been approved at the last general election by the voters.SouthamObserver said:
The Spanish government did not ban the referendum. The Spanish courts have declared it illegal, which it is under Spanish law. Indeed, there is no country in Europe where such a referendum would be legal. The criticism of the Spanish government is that it allowed things to get this far. It did not have to be this way. Ten years ago Catalan separatists were a relatively small minority. It is the Partido Popular that has turned them into such a powerful force.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
If the SNP had gone ahead with an indy vote themselves (as they promised to do), I don't think Cameron would have sent in the police to shut it down.
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In legal terms perhaps, though at the risk of a revolution in CataloniaSouthamObserver said:
But it wasn't, thus the vote is illegal. Just as it would be in every other country in Europe, including the UK.HYUFD said:
The Constitution can be amended by the Cortes to allow a referendum and could have been approved at the last general election by the voters.SouthamObserver said:
The Spanish government did not ban the referendum. The Spanish courts have declared it illegal, which it is under Spanish law. Indeed, there is no country in Europe where such a referendum would be legal. The criticism of the Spanish government is that it allowed things to get this far. It did not have to be this way. Ten years ago Catalan separatists were a relatively small minority. It is the Partido Popular that has turned them into such a powerful force.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
0 -
But the Spanish government seems to have handled the issue very ineptly, in contrast to (and I'm no fan but credit where it's due) Cameron in the period 2012-14.SouthamObserver said:
But it wasn't, thus the vote is illegal. Just as it would be in every other country in Europe, including the UK.HYUFD said:
The Constitution can be amended by the Cortes to allow a referendum and could have been approved at the last general election by the voters.SouthamObserver said:
The Spanish government did not ban the referendum. The Spanish courts have declared it illegal, which it is under Spanish law. Indeed, there is no country in Europe where such a referendum would be legal. The criticism of the Spanish government is that it allowed things to get this far. It did not have to be this way. Ten years ago Catalan separatists were a relatively small minority. It is the Partido Popular that has turned them into such a powerful force.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
0 -
Otherwise once known as social democrats.FrancisUrquhart said:"Centrist dads are middle-aged men who cannot come to terms with the world and politics changing," says Matt Zarb-Cousin, who helped popularise the term, which has been flying around among supporters of Jeremy Corbyn at this week's Labour Party conference in Brighton.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41413937
As Trump would say...SADDDDDDDD0 -
Absolutely. The Spanish nationalist PP, with its roots in Francoism, have done all they can to further the cause of the Catslan nationalists. It's been a text book case in how to make your relatively weak opponent immensely strong. There is a strain of militant, pig-headed obstinacy in Spain that the PP is right at the centre of.Benpointer said:
But the Spanish government seems to have handled the issue very ineptly, in contrast to (and I'm no fan but credit where it's due) Cameron in the period 2012-14.SouthamObserver said:
But it wasn't, thus the vote is illegal. Just as it would be in every other country in Europe, including the UK.HYUFD said:
The Constitution can be amended by the Cortes to allow a referendum and could have been approved at the last general election by the voters.SouthamObserver said:
The Spanish government did not ban the referendum. The Spanish courts have declared it illegal, which it is under Spanish law. Indeed, there is no country in Europe where such a referendum would be legal. The criticism of the Spanish government is that it allowed things to get this far. It did not have to be this way. Ten years ago Catalan separatists were a relatively small minority. It is the Partido Popular that has turned them into such a powerful force.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
0 -
As in Spain, the government would have done as the courts required, though in Scotland - unlike Catalonia- there is a separate legal system.MarkHopkins said:SouthamObserver said:
But it wasn't, thus the vote is illegal. Just as it would be in every other country in Europe, including the UK.HYUFD said:
The Constitution can be amended by the Cortes to allow a referendum and could have been approved at the last general election by the voters.SouthamObserver said:
The Spanish government did not ban the referendum. The Spanish courts have declared it illegal, which it is under Spanish law. Indeed, there is no country in Europe where such a referendum would be legal. The criticism of the Spanish government is that it allowed things to get this far. It did not have to be this way. Ten years ago Catalan separatists were a relatively small minority. It is the Partido Popular that has turned them into such a powerful force.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
If the SNP had gone ahead with an indy vote themselves (as they promised to do), I don't think Cameron would have sent in the police to shut it down.
0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.0
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Hello, very quiet here this aftMorris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
0 -
The man punched to the floor in the Bristol incident has been identified as Ryan Hale, a former soldier who served in Afghanistan.
Speaking to The Telegraph last night, Mr Hale’s mother Angela, said her son was “not an aggressive type”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/29/fallout-nightclub-brawl-continues-engulf-england-cricketers/
But the sort of person to try and bottle people?0 -
Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.0
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Mr. Pointer, indeed!
Anyway, will shortly have a look at the markets, see if anything's popped up.
Edited extra bit: not a tip, but the special on Vettel retiring by the end of lap 1 (was 41 pre-weekend) is back up on Ladbrokes, albeit at 21.0 -
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.0 -
One reason the EU may be open to reform of FoM:
http://www.politico.eu/article/doctors-nurses-migration-health-care-crisis-workers-follow-the-money-european-commission-data/0 -
Do you have any evidence for that. Seems unlikely to me that they'll be enraged at the prospect of leaving (de facto) in June 2021 rather than March 2021.HYUFD said:
To most Leave voters two years maximum means two years maximumdavid_herdson said:
The 'two years and not a day more' is an artificial red line. Theresa May said 'about' two years, or something similar and the difference is clearly Spring / Summer 2021. There is no good reason why the end of March should be the deadline. The deal does need signing off by parliament before the election, and in reality, that probably means before the summer 2021 recess - leaving it until the autumn would mean that final session would be dominated by Brexit divisions and the conference couldn't be used to launch the long election campaign and put the Brexit extraction process behind. But that means a vote no later than June, which means negotiations should be able to go on until at least May. By contrast, Boris' timetable would mean a deadline before Easter 2021 (which falls on April 4).HYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
Koeman: Hold my coat!!foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.0 -
What news of Spurs......foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.0 -
They will address benefits (plus maybe healthcare), and they won't (for a long time to come) allow any poor countries (except the very small) to join.rottenborough said:One reason the EU may be open to reform of FoM:
http://www.politico.eu/article/doctors-nurses-migration-health-care-crisis-workers-follow-the-money-european-commission-data/
But freedom to work has been in the charter of the EU, and the EEC. I can't see anything other than tinkering around the edges.0 -
I entirely take the point re-Corbyn being happy to go to the polls again. My real point is that should Labour and the DUP - for their own reasons - not wish to agree to a snap election, they are much better placed to thwart it than was the case last April.david_herdson said:
I have no doubt that Corbyn would go along with any call for a new election. If he was happy to do so when he was 20+ points behind in the polls, he'll certainly do so at level pegging or better (or even off a small deficit, should the Tories recover a bit).justin124 said:
People appear to be missing the point that the changed parliamentary arithmetic since June makes it much more difficult for a Tory PM to call a snap election. If the DUP do not favour such an election, they might prefer to install Corbyn for a limited period. On the other hand, Corbyn may relish the prospect of a replay!ThomasNashe said:
His version of Brexit is not one that could command a consensus. Only requires a few Tory remain MPs with safe seats to rebel ...MikeSmithson said:
How is that general election going to come about? I cannot see the Tories voting for oneThomasNashe said:If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.
By contrast, I can't see the DUP putting Corbyn into power - not least because the maths are so tight that even if you ignore their policy differences, Corbyn couldn't be sure of delivering on any promises made to the DUP as they'd have to have SNP, Lib Dem and other backing too.0 -
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
0 -
Well, well, well, something that Mr Tyndall and I actually completely agree on.Richard_Tyndall said:
I genuinely can't say although on reflection I think I disagree with you. I have no idea if he is lazy but I do believe he is principled. I just believe those principles are utterly warped and have no place in a modern western society.stevef said:
That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
Neither Boris nor Corbyn are fit to be PM.0 -
DUP + Lab with 272 seats ?justin124 said:
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
How does that work lol.0 -
Though the only big importers are in descending order, UK, Germany, Sweden and Belgium. UK looks about 25% of the immigrant Doctors. Worth noting that some countries like Greece produce far more Doctors than they have work for.rottenborough said:One reason the EU may be open to reform of FoM:
http://www.politico.eu/article/doctors-nurses-migration-health-care-crisis-workers-follow-the-money-european-commission-data/
0 -
Betting Post
F1: pre-race ramble is up here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/malaysia-pre-race-2017.html
Still fairly comfortable with the Verstappen 3.75 not to be classified bet, and also backed Raikkonen, at 11, for fastest lap.0 -
I suppose it means another election, it is not viable as a minority government.Pulpstar said:
DUP + Lab with 272 seats ?justin124 said:
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
How does that work lol.0 -
+ 36 SNP + 12 LD + 1 GRNPulpstar said:
DUP + Lab with 272 seats ?justin124 said:
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
How does that work lol.0 -
Well, close to that:williamglenn said:
But Theresa May didn't say two years maximum.
---------------------------------------
.....May insisted the proposed implementation phase would be “strictly time-limited” lasting “about two years” and the UK would still be formally leaving the bloc in March 2019.
---------------------------------------
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/22/theresa-may-asks-eu-for-two-year-brexit-transition-period0 -
Which will happen first? Spurs winning at home or Palace scoring an EPL goal?Scrapheap_as_was said:
What news of Spurs......foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.
0 -
Absolutely! However Boris would cream Corbyn! Despite Mr Johnson's questionable moral compass it would be seen by the red-top press as a straight fight between good and evil.Richard_Tyndall said:
I genuinely can't say although on reflection I think I disagree with you. I have no idea if he is lazy but I do believe he is principled. I just believe those principles are utterly warped and have no place in a modern western society.stevef said:
That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
Neither Boris nor Corbyn are fit to be PM.0 -
Would the DUP work with the SNP?MikeSmithson said:
+ 36 SNP + 12 LD + 1 GRNPulpstar said:
DUP + Lab with 272 seats ?justin124 said:
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
How does that work lol.0 -
neither.... all season.MikeSmithson said:
Which will happen first? Spurs winning at home or Palace scoring an EPL goal?Scrapheap_as_was said:
What news of Spurs......foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.
But I'll be there, Bournemouth next time, when we try again!0 -
Just a query about this Catalan thing. Is it correct that this is purely a Spanish issue, does France ever come into the discussion? South West France has a Catalan affinity on some level I think, and is there a theoretical possibility that the problems in Spain could ultimately spill over into France?0
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Wembley ain't our homeScrapheap_as_was said:
neither.... all season.MikeSmithson said:
Which will happen first? Spurs winning at home or Palace scoring an EPL goal?Scrapheap_as_was said:
What news of Spurs......foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.
But I'll be there, Bournemouth next time, when we try again!0 -
So who is this new team “Crystal Palace Nil” who keep being mentioned on the radio?MikeSmithson said:
Which will happen first? Spurs winning at home or Palace scoring an EPL goal?Scrapheap_as_was said:
What news of Spurs......foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.0 -
And with current numbers, the DUP only need to abstain to give the Tories a majority, thanks to the Shinners not turning up and the Speaker not voting.RobD said:
Would the DUP work with the SNP?MikeSmithson said:
+ 36 SNP + 12 LD + 1 GRNPulpstar said:
DUP + Lab with 272 seats ?justin124 said:
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
How does that work lol.0 -
Basques rather than Catalans?alex. said:Just a query about this Catalan thing. Is it correct that this is purely a Spanish issue, does France ever come into the discussion? South West France has a Catalan affinity on some level I think, and is there a theoretical possibility that the problems in Spain could ultimately spill over into France?
0 -
And how influential do you think the red-tops are these days? You could put Adolf up against Corbyn and they'd still not opt for Jezza (well the DM certainly wouldn't!), so I really don't think their view on Boris versus Corbyn is significant.Mexicanpete said:
Absolutely! However Boris would cream Corbyn! Despite Mr Johnson's questionable moral compass it would be seen by the red-top press as a straight fight between good and evil.Richard_Tyndall said:
I genuinely can't say although on reflection I think I disagree with you. I have no idea if he is lazy but I do believe he is principled. I just believe those principles are utterly warped and have no place in a modern western society.stevef said:
That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
Neither Boris nor Corbyn are fit to be PM.0 -
The French departement of Pyrennes-Oriental is Catalan-speaking I believe.dr_spyn said:
Basques rather than Catalans?alex. said:Just a query about this Catalan thing. Is it correct that this is purely a Spanish issue, does France ever come into the discussion? South West France has a Catalan affinity on some level I think, and is there a theoretical possibility that the problems in Spain could ultimately spill over into France?
0 -
Similarly the new "Manchester United Four" team - lovin' it!Sandpit said:
So who is this new team “Crystal Palace Nil” who keep being mentioned on the radio?MikeSmithson said:
Which will happen first? Spurs winning at home or Palace scoring an EPL goal?Scrapheap_as_was said:
What news of Spurs......foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.
0 -
Luckily our away form is splendid apart from the one venue....Charles said:
Wembley ain't our homeScrapheap_as_was said:
neither.... all season.MikeSmithson said:
Which will happen first? Spurs winning at home or Palace scoring an EPL goal?Scrapheap_as_was said:
What news of Spurs......foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.
But I'll be there, Bournemouth next time, when we try again!0 -
The top French RL team is the Catalans Dragons. They are based in Perpignan.rpjs said:
The French departement of Pyrennes-Oriental is Catalan-speaking I believe.dr_spyn said:
Basques rather than Catalans?alex. said:Just a query about this Catalan thing. Is it correct that this is purely a Spanish issue, does France ever come into the discussion? South West France has a Catalan affinity on some level I think, and is there a theoretical possibility that the problems in Spain could ultimately spill over into France?
Big day for them today as they stayed in Super League winning the relegation playoff.
They wear the red and yellow of the Catalan flag.
Fiers d'etre Catalans is their motto.0 -
Yes and many have a greater allegiance to Catalan than France, when I was on holiday in the region, a restaurant owner told us they like the English down there unlike the French, and Catalan flags flew along the sea front, the region used to have it's along language, the Langue D'Oc which was suppressed by the Parisian government. So I could certainly see it affecting France. This may make it harder for an Independent Catalan state as the EU countries would not want to be encouraging the spread of separatist demandsrpjs said:
The French departement of Pyrennes-Oriental is Catalan-speaking I believe.dr_spyn said:
Basques rather than Catalans?alex. said:Just a query about this Catalan thing. Is it correct that this is purely a Spanish issue, does France ever come into the discussion? South West France has a Catalan affinity on some level I think, and is there a theoretical possibility that the problems in Spain could ultimately spill over into France?
0 -
It has a few Catalan speakers. The French did a much more thorough job than the Spanish of stamping out regional languages.rpjs said:
The French departement of Pyrennes-Oriental is Catalan-speaking I believe.dr_spyn said:
Basques rather than Catalans?alex. said:Just a query about this Catalan thing. Is it correct that this is purely a Spanish issue, does France ever come into the discussion? South West France has a Catalan affinity on some level I think, and is there a theoretical possibility that the problems in Spain could ultimately spill over into France?
0 -
Yes it couldalex. said:Just a query about this Catalan thing. Is it correct that this is purely a Spanish issue, does France ever come into the discussion? South West France has a Catalan affinity on some level I think, and is there a theoretical possibility that the problems in Spain could ultimately spill over into France?
0 -
Indeed, vide Breton. IIRC there's also also a city on the west coast of Sardinia that speaks Catalan. A holdover from the old Aragonese Empire.RoyalBlue said:
It has a few Catalan speakers. The French did a much more thorough job than the Spanish of stamping out regional languages.rpjs said:
The French departement of Pyrennes-Oriental is Catalan-speaking I believe.dr_spyn said:
Basques rather than Catalans?alex. said:Just a query about this Catalan thing. Is it correct that this is purely a Spanish issue, does France ever come into the discussion? South West France has a Catalan affinity on some level I think, and is there a theoretical possibility that the problems in Spain could ultimately spill over into France?
0 -
Matt is a bloody genius. Again.
https://twitter.com/Cartoon4sale/status/9141788240736296960 -
DUP + Lab +LD + SNP +PLaid +Grn = 324Pulpstar said:
DUP + Lab with 272 seats ?justin124 said:
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
How does that work lol.0 -
A recipe for stable government if ever I heard one.justin124 said:
DUP + Lab +LD + SNP +PLaid +Grn = 324Pulpstar said:
DUP + Lab with 272 seats ?justin124 said:
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
How does that work lol.
Still, it will allow for even more 'How much did X's support cost?' comments - I would advise the SNP to hold out for a lot more than a billion.0 -
The EU are holding out for the odd £30 billionkle4 said:
A recipe for stable government if ever I heard one.justin124 said:
DUP + Lab +LD + SNP +PLaid +Grn = 324Pulpstar said:
DUP + Lab with 272 seats ?justin124 said:
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
How does that work lol.
Still, it will allow for even more 'How much did X's support cost?' comments - I would advise the SNP to hold out for a lot more than a billion. 0 -
Oh god, I see Donny is now attacking Puerto Rico....
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/30/politics/trump-tweets-puerto-rico-mayor/index.html0 -
Alghero:rpjs said:
Indeed, vide Breton. IIRC there's also also a city on the west coast of Sardinia that speaks Catalan. A holdover from the old Aragonese Empire.RoyalBlue said:
It has a few Catalan speakers. The French did a much more thorough job than the Spanish of stamping out regional languages.rpjs said:
The French departement of Pyrennes-Oriental is Catalan-speaking I believe.dr_spyn said:
Basques rather than Catalans?alex. said:Just a query about this Catalan thing. Is it correct that this is purely a Spanish issue, does France ever come into the discussion? South West France has a Catalan affinity on some level I think, and is there a theoretical possibility that the problems in Spain could ultimately spill over into France?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alghero
Catalan is also spoken in Valencia and the Balearics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language
Unfortunately, the Valencians see their form of Catalan as a separate language (vide Serbian v. Croat, Hindi v. Urdu, etc.)0 -
West Ham actually won todayMikeSmithson said:
Which will happen first? Spurs winning at home or Palace scoring an EPL goal?Scrapheap_as_was said:
What news of Spurs......foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester stole a point. That was dire.Mortimer said:Gah. West Brom lost a lead with the final kick of the game.
Shakespeare may be next manager to go.
0 -
Mr. Sandpit, just seen that cartoon. As you say, genius. Skewers both parties in a single line.0
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Exactly as I posted earlier, 42% of Leave voters want no transition period at all and 73% a transition period of no more than 2 years maximumdavid_herdson said:
Do you have any evidence for that. Seems unlikely to me that they'll be enraged at the prospect of leaving (de facto) in June 2021 rather than March 2021.HYUFD said:
To most Leave voters two years maximum means two years maximumdavid_herdson said:
The 'two years and not a day more' is an artificial red line. Theresa May said 'about' two years, or something similar and the difference is clearly Spring / Summer 2021. There is no good reason why the end of March (which falls on April 4).HYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/xdlp14v0de/TimesResults_170922_VI_Trackers_W.pdf (p4)0 -
The DUP is pro grammar school, pro Brexit, anti gay marriage, anti abortion, pro death penalty, non Socialist and Unionist, exactly what does it have in common with Corbyn Labour given on most issues it is to the right of the Tories?justin124 said:
DUP + Lab +LD + SNP +PLaid +Grn = 324Pulpstar said:
DUP + Lab with 272 seats ?justin124 said:
Nobody actually 'won' the election. Had the DUP been inclined to support Labour - as might have been the case were Milliband still the leader - Theresa May would not be PM despite being leader of the largest party at Westminster.stevef said:May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
How does that work lol.0 -
I agree with ThomasNashe who agrees with Tyson that Boris is a ratbag. He sets the standard for others to follow. Lest people give up hope there are straight arrow MPs out there. We had one such in Bedford for a while: Patrick Hall.0
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I'm off now, but a quick reminder the race starts at 8am UK time. Every chance the start will be soggy, but the end should be dry.
Let's hope Verstappen crashes into Hamilton and Raikkonen is very swift.0 -
May should sack Boris. He asking for it, but he's over-reached. She could beat him.0
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Definitely. The comments on public sector pay seemed most out of line, treading on toes, trying to speak as if he's leader already rather than focusing on his job. The Myanmar footage of him is cringe-worthy, he's lost a lot of the charisma he had when standing against Ken.Jonathan said:May should sack Boris. He asking for it, but he's over-reached. She could beat him.
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Yes, May could beat Boris. Whether May could beat Boris and all of the other ministers who would throw their hats into the ring is more doubtful.Jonathan said:May should sack Boris. He asking for it, but he's over-reached. She could beat him.
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MPs want to keep their seats and for now Boris is the most popular choice of voters as a whole, Tory voters and Tory members to succeed May.Jonathan said:
Of course unless May resigns it is true to say she can only be toppled by a no confidence vote of her MPs though so you are right to that extent.0 -
#ferretsinasackrottenborough said:0 -
In more benign economic/political times, this conservative shitshow would be highly amusing to those of us on the centre left.rottenborough said:
But the right have walked the country into a crisis greater than Suez. I just hope Corbyn and McDonnell are up to the task of fixing this national f*ckup.
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Meh about the Burma footage, some twat has said on the front page of the bbc that Mandalay is a "pro-colonial" poem. How bad does his bad arts degree have to be, to think that poem "pro-colonial," and why are my tax dollars being spent on his salary?Winstanley said:
Definitely. The comments on public sector pay seemed most out of line, treading on toes, trying to speak as if he's leader already rather than focusing on his job. The Myanmar footage of him is cringe-worthy, he's lost a lot of the charisma he had when standing against Ken.Jonathan said:May should sack Boris. He asking for it, but he's over-reached. She could beat him.
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There was a 'civil war' in Labour and unity in the Tory Party last year before the party conferences and that did not do Labour too much harmGIN1138 said:
#ferretsinasackrottenborough said:0 -
No, they would make the f*ckup a monumental f*ckup of the economy and Brexit if they ever got into powerPong said:In more benign economic/political times, this conservative shitshow would be highly amusing to those of us on the centre left.
But the right have walked the country into a crisis greater than Suez. I just hope Corbyn and McDonnell are up to the task of fixing this national f*ckup.0 -
The incident was captured by a film crew for Channel 4 and will form part of a documentary to be broadcast on Sunday about the fitness of the MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip to become prime minister.Ishmael_Z said:
Meh about the Burma footage, some twat has said on the front page of the bbc that Mandalay is a "pro-colonial" poem. How bad does his bad arts degree have to be, to think that poem "pro-colonial," and why are my tax dollars being spent on his salary?Winstanley said:
Definitely. The comments on public sector pay seemed most out of line, treading on toes, trying to speak as if he's leader already rather than focusing on his job. The Myanmar footage of him is cringe-worthy, he's lost a lot of the charisma he had when standing against Ken.Jonathan said:May should sack Boris. He asking for it, but he's over-reached. She could beat him.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/30/boris-johnson-caught-on-camera-reciting-kipling-in-myanmar-temple
It seems like either the BBC or CH4 do a hatch job doc on BoJo every year.
I am still waiting for a similar documentary on Jezza...Perhaps they had too much trouble editing it down to a single hour programme?0 -
Slightly more pressing issues in Burma lately!Ishmael_Z said:
Meh about the Burma footage, some twat has said on the front page of the bbc that Mandalay is a "pro-colonial" poem. How bad does his bad arts degree have to be, to think that poem "pro-colonial," and why are my tax dollars being spent on his salary?Winstanley said:
Definitely. The comments on public sector pay seemed most out of line, treading on toes, trying to speak as if he's leader already rather than focusing on his job. The Myanmar footage of him is cringe-worthy, he's lost a lot of the charisma he had when standing against Ken.Jonathan said:May should sack Boris. He asking for it, but he's over-reached. She could beat him.
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I trust the voters far more than to expect that.Pong said:
In more benign economic/political times, this conservative shitshow would be highly amusing to those of us on the centre left.rottenborough said:
But the right have walked the country into a crisis greater than Suez. I just hope Corbyn and McDonnell are up to the task of fixing this national f*ckup.0 -
Boris has lost my support having been unsure until now. Loyalty is needed but his selfish postering at a time when the party needs to come behind May is astonishing. I believe he has lost any chance of making leader.GIN1138 said:
#ferretsinasackrottenborough said:
I will vote for anyone else0 -
The Police Minister in South Africa has declared war on criminals by redeploying a notoriously brutal unit and telling them to 'crush balls' and to make criminals 'pee and drink their urine'.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4936054/Crush-balls-make-criminals-drink-URINE.html
Well I guess that is one approach...0 -
And my wife is incandescent against him. Gove knew what he was doingBig_G_NorthWales said:
Boris has lost my support having been unsure until now. Loyalty is needed but his selfish postering at a time when the party needs to come behind May is astonishing. I believe he has lost any chance of making leader.GIN1138 said:
#ferretsinasackrottenborough said:
I will vote for anyone else0 -
This is the poem:Ishmael_Z said:
Meh about the Burma footage, some twat has said on the front page of the bbc that Mandalay is a "pro-colonial" poem. How bad does his bad arts degree have to be, to think that poem "pro-colonial," and why are my tax dollars being spent on his salary?Winstanley said:
Definitely. The comments on public sector pay seemed most out of line, treading on toes, trying to speak as if he's leader already rather than focusing on his job. The Myanmar footage of him is cringe-worthy, he's lost a lot of the charisma he had when standing against Ken.Jonathan said:May should sack Boris. He asking for it, but he's over-reached. She could beat him.
http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_mandalay.htm
The part insulting the Buddha is probably particularly inappropriate for the holiest Bhuddist site in Yangon.
The Poem is about the flotilla on the Irawaddy that conquered independent Burma in the third Anglo Burmese war.0 -
Yup!Big_G_NorthWales said:
Boris has lost my support having been unsure until now. Loyalty is needed but his selfish postering at a time when the party needs to come behind May is astonishing. I believe he has lost any chance of making leader.GIN1138 said:
#ferretsinasackrottenborough said:
I will vote for anyone else
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To be fair I don't think you were ever his greatest fan and as a Remainer a minority in both the Tory Party and the country as a whole.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Boris has lost my support having been unsure until now. Loyalty is needed but his selfish postering at a time when the party needs to come behind May is astonishing. I believe he has lost any chance of making leader.GIN1138 said:
#ferretsinasackrottenborough said:
I will vote for anyone else
I am in the same position having also voted Remain but I would vote for Boris unless and until another Tory starts showing he can really challenge Corbyn in the polls0 -
I'm no Boris fan, and I'm with @Charles that Mrs May should sack him for disloyalty.foxinsoxuk said:
This is the poem:Ishmael_Z said:
Meh about the Burma footage, some twat has said on the front page of the bbc that Mandalay is a "pro-colonial" poem. How bad does his bad arts degree have to be, to think that poem "pro-colonial," and why are my tax dollars being spent on his salary?Winstanley said:
Definitely. The comments on public sector pay seemed most out of line, treading on toes, trying to speak as if he's leader already rather than focusing on his job. The Myanmar footage of him is cringe-worthy, he's lost a lot of the charisma he had when standing against Ken.Jonathan said:May should sack Boris. He asking for it, but he's over-reached. She could beat him.
http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_mandalay.htm
The part insulting the Buddha is probably particularly inappropriate for the holiest Bhuddist site in Yangon.
The Poem is about the flotilla on the Irawaddy that conquered independent Burma in the third Anglo Burmese war.
But not for this load of hand-wringing tripe.
The Burmese government are currently suspected of genocide. And we worry about reciting, under breath, a century old poem by Kippers?
The West needs to develop a backbone, and fast.0 -
Loyalty is very precious commodity and he has only a selfish interest in himself. He has done immense damage to his ambitions with his posturing. He has lost meHYUFD said:
To be fair I don't think you were ever his greatest fan and as a Remainer a minority in both the Tory Party and the country as a whole.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Boris has lost my support having been unsure until now. Loyalty is needed but his selfish postering at a time when the party needs to come behind May is astonishing. I believe he has lost any chance of making leader.GIN1138 said:
#ferretsinasackrottenborough said:
I will vote for anyone else
I am in the same position having also voted Remain but I would vote for Boris unless and until another Tory starts showing he can really challenge Corbyn in the polls0
This discussion has been closed.