politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Don’t EU want me?
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A dilbert cartoon http://dilbert.com/strip/2017-09-040
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Shhhh. Listen. Did you hear that? £100m not being invested in the UK.SouthamObserver said:
We will have even fewer public services and the quality of provision will get worse. There will be less public and private investment in infrastructure and wages growth will be lower than it otherwise would have been. Jobs and tax revenues that might have been created in the UK will be created elsewhere instead. It will be a drip, drip, drip - not a big bang.Sean_F said:When people say we'll be worse off if we leave the EU, they should clarify whether they expect GDP per head to fall year on year after we leave, or whether they mean that it will rise less rapidly than would otherwise have been the case.
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The point is that, having decided to leave the EU, we have a genuine choice: (1) Throw our lot in with those we have just rejected, take their rules and minimise the damage of Brexit. or (2) Go it alone with reduced connections not just with the EU (our main relationship) but with third countries as well, with a significant hit to our economy. Or possibly something between the two. Opinion polls show the Conservatives are approximately divided between the two options. The country as a whole favours mitigation.FF43 said:
While a more globally connected Britain is possible, and can certainly be imagined, it is unlikely to happen in practice and there is no reason to believe it will. Leaving aside argument and rhetoric and go to the concrete, the here and now, the tyre hitting the road, Brexit is a disconnection. We have rejected the EU system without an alternative system. The EU won't allow us to trade with them in an integrated way unless we do it on their rules. Otherwise it undermines the system and potentially damages the interests of its members.Casino_Royale said:
That Janan Ganesh article (for it is he) is fascinating.
[snip]
Has he imagined a future where Britain thrives? Where it deepens and strengthens its global trading relationships, adopts a more flexible approach to regulation and has a well-structured immigration policy focussed on attracting the best talent from around the world?
Nope. He is counting all of the (imagined) lost opportunities, and discounting any new ones.
[snip]
Third countries already deal with the EU on their system and don't particularly want us to do something different. There was a survey of US companies about what they would be looking for in US/UK trade deal and, by far, the top two wants was for the UK to stay in the EU Single Market and Customs Union. They had structured their investments on that assumption and they didn't see any upside to changing it. Mr Abe was saying something similar to Mrs May in Tokyo last week.
We can either go along with the EU system as rule takers and keep many of our current relationships going at some level or we reject the EU system and the Ganesh scenario kicks in. There isn't a likely scenario where we are ahead of where we are now, but if we go for the second we will probably go backwards a fair bit. We're already seeing the government taking the first approach with the so called "copycat trade deals". This isn't simply a matter of not having the time and resources to go bespoke. The UK is unlikely to get as good a deal as it currently enjoys through the EU, if it goes it alone.
"Global Britain" isn't a choice now we have rejected EU membership.0 -
Do you have any evidence it is education that is the issue?TOPPING said:First, it wasn't the best paper, it was the first one on Google. As I also said, it seems immigration is neutral towards productivity but you keep on banging on about it.
Secondly, businesses want cheap, competent labour. Often ideally, I would imagine, English-speaking. Nor can they all invest in training and arguably why should they beyond a basic level. This workforce is not being provided by our education system. That is the issue; if it was being provided then our productivity would increase.
If I was to rank productivity issues I'd rank it last out of:
1: The internet being a massive distracting time waster (how many post here while they're supposed to be working)?
2: Consciously choosing less productive (but better quality) options.
3: A lack of investment in machinery.
4: Education.0 -
Totally wrong. In fact, on your final two sentences, you are wrong now. Today.Scott_P said:
I understood it perfectly, and you were simply wrongCasino_Royale said:I was explaining my view of the overall economic effects on the UK economy. Let me make it simple for you
There is no scenario where an increase in non-tariff barriers has a beneficial effect on any timescale
Our non-EU trade will always be a fraction of our EU trade. That is a matter of Geography, not politics
Maybe I too generously credited you with having more intelligence than you actually have.0 -
We have exactly the same rights as other EU member states that have high levels of immigration but do not have our productivity problems.DavidL said:
We do not have the right to control the flow of unskilled and semi-skilled labour from the EU. This has consequences.SouthamObserver said:
We already have those opportunities. We are not the only EU member state with high levels of immigration. We do seem to be the only one with a serious productivity problem.DavidL said:
It gives us opportunities to address it. Whether we seize those opportunities or let them slide through our fingers is very much up to us and those we elect. The last point may be a problem of course. Are there any adults in the room?TOPPING said:
And do you think Leaving will halt it?another_richard said:
And one more:another_richard said:
The yearning for British failure among some Remainers is very revealing.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/904787023680163840SouthamObserver said:This very good article pretty much explains why I voted Remain and why there is unlikely to be a substantial shift in public opinion for a number of years:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-sets-britain-on-a-stable-path-of-relative-decline-1.3209436?mode=amp
Lets look at some economic facts:
When did the UK last have a trade surplus month ? 1998
When did UK industrial output peak ? 2000
When did UK government debt as a % of GDP start increasing ? 2002
When did home ownerships level start falling in the UK ? 2003
When did declinism begin ?
When did UK productivity start its stagnation ? 2006
Declinism was a cause of the Leave vote, not a consequence.
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Indeed so, and both you and I recognise that, but we go in opposite directions on it.williamglenn said:
Some things are more important than money, are they not?Casino_Royale said:Whisper it, but I think at HMG and civil service level we were members more for political reasons.
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The thing about any FTA we agree with the Americans is that it will be dictated by them. Our choice will be to accept or reject. That's it. And the same essentially applies to any FTA we do with any major economy. And no-one is going to finalise anything with us until our relationship with the EI is finalised.FF43 said:
While a more globally connected Britain is possible, and can certainly be imagined, it is unlikely to happen in practice and there is no reason to believe it will. Leaving aside argument and rhetoric and go to the concrete, the here and now, the tyre hitting the road, Brexit is a disconnection. We have rejected the EU system without an alternative system. The EU won't allow us to trade with them in an integrated way unless we do it on their rules. Otherwise it undermines the system and potentially damages the interests of its members.Casino_Royale said:
That Janan Ganesh article (for it is he) is fascinating.
[snip]
Has he imagined a future where Britain thrives? Where it deepens and strengthens its global trading relationships, adopts a more flexible approach to regulation and has a well-structured immigration policy focussed on attracting the best talent from around the world?
Nope. He is counting all of the (imagined) lost opportunities, and discounting any new ones.
[snip]
Third countries already deal with the EU on their system and don't particularly want us to do something different. There was a survey of US companies about what they would be looking for in US/UK trade deal and, by far, the top two wants was for the UK to stay in the EU Single Market and Customs Union. They had structured their investments on that assumption and they didn't see any upside to changing it. Mr Abe was saying something similar to Mrs May in Tokyo last week.
We can either go along with the EU system as rule takers and keep many of our current relationships going at some level or we reject the EU system and the Ganesh scenario kicks in. There isn't a likely scenario where we are ahead of where we are now, but if we go for the second we will probably go backwards a fair bit. We're already seeing the government taking the first approach with the so called "copycat trade deals". This isn't simply a matter of not having the time and resources to go bespoke. The UK is unlikely to get as good a deal as it currently enjoys through the EU, if it goes it alone.0 -
Except at Starbucks, natch.Philip_Thompson said:
Productivity has little to do with education and more to do with technology and choice.TOPPING said:I don't like making connections between immigration and productivity because I believe the answer to increased productivity lies in our education system and that is independent of immigration.
But for those who say that immigration negatively affects productivity, here is a paper that says that it actually increases it. Take away the immigration and you take away that increase. Would lower immigration motivate schools to upskill their students in the face of pressure from business for plentiful, competent labour? Well first, that's a huge leap, and second, surely government policy has been trying to do that for decades, and hence I don't think the two things should be conflated.
The easy go to answer is to say that education is the panacea but it is not, the reality is that technology (which develops through education of course) is what makes the real difference. The reality is that virtually the entire workforce is not going to return to education and it is machinery rather than schools that drive a lot of productivity growth.
Some of the stagnating productivity is currently deliberate and is to improve service which can't be measured via productivity figures. 20 years ago if I wanted a coffee I'd go to a kettle, boil some water, add a teaspoon of instant coffee and some milk and job done. 10 years ago if I wanted a coffee I'd go to the nearby Subway and they'd put a cup under their machine, press a button and out would pop a latte. Now if I want a coffee I order a coffee and a barista steams milk and makes a fresh coffee.
Which of those is productive? The most productive coffee is for me to make instant myself. The least productive is paying a barista to steam milk by hand. But the intangible quality and service is what is getting paid for despite it being terribly unproductive.
The fact is we pay for the luxury of unproductive choices because we can afford to. It would be far cheaper to get a machine that does coffees and skip the barista and it would be cheaper still to get a kettle. But we decide we can afford to pay a barista because we enjoy the experience.0 -
"I voted Brexit to ban the internet."Philip_Thompson said:
Do you have any evidence it is education that is the issue?TOPPING said:First, it wasn't the best paper, it was the first one on Google. As I also said, it seems immigration is neutral towards productivity but you keep on banging on about it.
Secondly, businesses want cheap, competent labour. Often ideally, I would imagine, English-speaking. Nor can they all invest in training and arguably why should they beyond a basic level. This workforce is not being provided by our education system. That is the issue; if it was being provided then our productivity would increase.
If I was to rank productivity issues I'd rank it last out of:
1: The internet being a massive distracting time waster (how many post here while they're supposed to be working)?
2: Consciously choosing less productive (but better quality) options.
3: A lack of investment in machinery.
4: Education.
Or perhaps we should blow it up?0 -
It's very possible that the rise of AI and automation sweeps away decades of assumptions about the economic importance of low-skilled mass immigration very quickly in the coming years.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed car washing is another great example. The idea of paying someone to wash your car by hand was alien for the vast majority 20 years ago, either you washed your own car or went through the automatic car wash. Now so many get their cars washed by hand. We could up our productivity by using automatic car washes but the less productive hand washes are perceived to be better.TOPPING said:I hate those nespresso machines, and the coffee they produce and there's even a nespresso shop in London, god help us.
As for productivity, you highlight an interesting point, and yes I have my car washed by a team of (probably) Latvians rather than in the BP car wash. But the fact remains that the UK's productivity lags well behind our neighbours' and we would do a lot better if we could improve it.
Yes we could do better if we improve it and we should try. But there are many intangibles like service and quality that can't be measured in these aggregate statistics.
Of course, that will pose other big challenges. Both for us domestically, but also for nations that currently export people.0 -
You started the argument about productivity and migration by posting the link to the paper. I merely commented on how poor it was. Its interesting to note you've changed your tune from it does have an impact to actually it doesn't..TOPPING said:First, it wasn't the best paper, it was the first one on Google. As I also said, it seems immigration is neutral towards productivity but you keep on banging on about it.
Secondly, businesses want cheap, competent labour. Often ideally, I would imagine, English-speaking. Nor can they all invest in training and arguably why should they beyond a basic level. This workforce is not being provided by our education system. That is the issue; if it was being provided then our productivity would increase.
Equally businesses don't necessarily want cheap competent labour. I may be the exception (but taking to my colleagues I'm not). What I want competent labour that allows me to make a profit its unlikely to be the cheapest...
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Who said anything about banning the internet? Are you that antithetical to serious debate?TOPPING said:
"I voted Brexit to ban the internet."Philip_Thompson said:
Do you have any evidence it is education that is the issue?TOPPING said:First, it wasn't the best paper, it was the first one on Google. As I also said, it seems immigration is neutral towards productivity but you keep on banging on about it.
Secondly, businesses want cheap, competent labour. Often ideally, I would imagine, English-speaking. Nor can they all invest in training and arguably why should they beyond a basic level. This workforce is not being provided by our education system. That is the issue; if it was being provided then our productivity would increase.
If I was to rank productivity issues I'd rank it last out of:
1: The internet being a massive distracting time waster (how many post here while they're supposed to be working)?
2: Consciously choosing less productive (but better quality) options.
3: A lack of investment in machinery.
4: Education.
Or perhaps we should blow it up?0 -
I keep coming back to it, but as a business we will not invest as much in our UK operation once we are out of the single market. It makes no sense to do so as we will be servicing a country of 65 million people from our London office in future, not an economic area of 450 million. Instead, we'll grow our US and Asian operations, and look to open an office inside the single market to take advantage of European opportunities. We are but a tiny cog in the UK economy - albeit a pretty fast-growing and well-paying one - but if that is how we think, you can bet your bottom dollar many others will as well. We will not be laying people off, it's just we will not be employing them at the rate we otherwise would have done. And the upshot of this is fewer jobs and less government income.TOPPING said:
Shhhh. Listen. Did you hear that? £100m not being invested in the UK.SouthamObserver said:
We will have even fewer public services and the quality of provision will get worse. There will be less public and private investment in infrastructure and wages growth will be lower than it otherwise would have been. Jobs and tax revenues that might have been created in the UK will be created elsewhere instead. It will be a drip, drip, drip - not a big bang.Sean_F said:When people say we'll be worse off if we leave the EU, they should clarify whether they expect GDP per head to fall year on year after we leave, or whether they mean that it will rise less rapidly than would otherwise have been the case.
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On that note:Casino_Royale said:
It's very possible that the rise of AI and automation sweeps away decades of assumptions about the economic importance of low-skilled mass immigration very quickly in the coming years.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed car washing is another great example. The idea of paying someone to wash your car by hand was alien for the vast majority 20 years ago, either you washed your own car or went through the automatic car wash. Now so many get their cars washed by hand. We could up our productivity by using automatic car washes but the less productive hand washes are perceived to be better.TOPPING said:I hate those nespresso machines, and the coffee they produce and there's even a nespresso shop in London, god help us.
As for productivity, you highlight an interesting point, and yes I have my car washed by a team of (probably) Latvians rather than in the BP car wash. But the fact remains that the UK's productivity lags well behind our neighbours' and we would do a lot better if we could improve it.
Yes we could do better if we improve it and we should try. But there are many intangibles like service and quality that can't be measured in these aggregate statistics.
https://twitter.com/verge/status/9046284007484211220 -
Other countries can use language skills to create an artificial barrier that encourages the employment of local people before migrants. Sadly everyone can speak English so we can't use the Dutch / French approach of not fluent enough....SouthamObserver said:
We have exactly the same rights as other EU member states that have high levels of immigration but do not have our productivity problems.DavidL said:
We do not have the right to control the flow of unskilled and semi-skilled labour from the EU. This has consequences.SouthamObserver said:
We already have those opportunities. We are not the only EU member state with high levels of immigration. We do seem to be the only one with a serious productivity problem.DavidL said:
It gives us opportunities to address it. Whether we seize those opportunities or let them slide through our fingers is very much up to us and those we elect. The last point may be a problem of course. Are there any adults in the room?TOPPING said:
And do you think Leaving will halt it?another_richard said:
And one more:another_richard said:
The yearning for British failure among some Remainers is very revealing.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/904787023680163840SouthamObserver said:This very good article pretty much explains why I voted Remain and why there is unlikely to be a substantial shift in public opinion for a number of years:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-sets-britain-on-a-stable-path-of-relative-decline-1.3209436?mode=amp
Lets look at some economic facts:
When did the UK last have a trade surplus month ? 1998
When did UK industrial output peak ? 2000
When did UK government debt as a % of GDP start increasing ? 2002
When did home ownerships level start falling in the UK ? 2003
When did declinism begin ?
When did UK productivity start its stagnation ? 2006
Declinism was a cause of the Leave vote, not a consequence.0 -
I've never assumed low-skilled mass immigration was a good idea. We have enough of our own low-skilled people we can employ.Casino_Royale said:
It's very possible that the rise of AI and automation sweeps away decades of assumptions about the economic importance of low-skilled mass immigration very quickly in the coming years.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed car washing is another great example. The idea of paying someone to wash your car by hand was alien for the vast majority 20 years ago, either you washed your own car or went through the automatic car wash. Now so many get their cars washed by hand. We could up our productivity by using automatic car washes but the less productive hand washes are perceived to be better.TOPPING said:I hate those nespresso machines, and the coffee they produce and there's even a nespresso shop in London, god help us.
As for productivity, you highlight an interesting point, and yes I have my car washed by a team of (probably) Latvians rather than in the BP car wash. But the fact remains that the UK's productivity lags well behind our neighbours' and we would do a lot better if we could improve it.
Yes we could do better if we improve it and we should try. But there are many intangibles like service and quality that can't be measured in these aggregate statistics.
Of course, that will pose other big challenges. Both for us domestically, but also for nations that currently export people.
However I think actually the rise of AI and automation may oddly enough sweep away centuries of assumptions of the importance of education etc - oddly enough we may end up in a situation with two big extremes with very few doing very highly technical jobs . . . and a lot of people in service jobs where a human touch is simply appreciated rather than being strictly necessary.0 -
Not at all - DavidL said that immigration negatively affected productivity. I googled and found that one paper said that not only does it not negatively affect productivity, it increases productivity in the native workforce.eek said:
You started the argument about productivity and migration by posting the link to the paper. I merely commented on how poor it was. Its interesting to note you've changed your tune from it does have an impact to actually it doesn't..TOPPING said:First, it wasn't the best paper, it was the first one on Google. As I also said, it seems immigration is neutral towards productivity but you keep on banging on about it.
Secondly, businesses want cheap, competent labour. Often ideally, I would imagine, English-speaking. Nor can they all invest in training and arguably why should they beyond a basic level. This workforce is not being provided by our education system. That is the issue; if it was being provided then our productivity would increase.
Equally businesses don't necessarily want cheap competent labour. I may be the exception (but taking to my colleagues I'm not). What I want competent labour that allows me to make a profit its unlikely to be the cheapest...
And I thought we were talking about the fruit pickers and baristas that was depressing the wages apparently of the less well-educated. Not some techno high-flyers who are employable anywhere.0 -
You said the internet was the biggest barrier to increased productivity. So I suggested a couple of alternatives (banning, blowing up) to remove that barrier.Philip_Thompson said:
Who said anything about banning the internet? Are you that antithetical to serious debate?TOPPING said:
"I voted Brexit to ban the internet."Philip_Thompson said:
Do you have any evidence it is education that is the issue?TOPPING said:First, it wasn't the best paper, it was the first one on Google. As I also said, it seems immigration is neutral towards productivity but you keep on banging on about it.
Secondly, businesses want cheap, competent labour. Often ideally, I would imagine, English-speaking. Nor can they all invest in training and arguably why should they beyond a basic level. This workforce is not being provided by our education system. That is the issue; if it was being provided then our productivity would increase.
If I was to rank productivity issues I'd rank it last out of:
1: The internet being a massive distracting time waster (how many post here while they're supposed to be working)?
2: Consciously choosing less productive (but better quality) options.
3: A lack of investment in machinery.
4: Education.
Or perhaps we should blow it up?
And I must away now for a bit, team. Will read back and answer all the mad Brexiters on my return.0 -
Um. Our non-EU trade - or at least the important bit which is the exports - is already larger than our EU trade. Only 44% of UK goods and services exports went to the EU in 2016.Scott_P said:
I understood it perfectly, and you were simply wrongCasino_Royale said:I was explaining my view of the overall economic effects on the UK economy. Let me make it simple for you
There is no scenario where an increase in non-tariff barriers has a beneficial effect on any timescale
Our non-EU trade will always be a fraction of our EU trade. That is a matter of Geography, not politics0 -
Unemployment levels in Germany are low, immigration is high, wages have grown faster than in the UK and productivity is better.eek said:
Other countries can use language skills to create an artificial barrier that encourages the employment of local people before migrants. Sadly everyone can speak English so we can't use the Dutch / French approach of not fluent enough....SouthamObserver said:
We have exactly the same rights as other EU member states that have high levels of immigration but do not have our productivity problems.DavidL said:
We do not have the right to control the flow of unskilled and semi-skilled labour from the EU. This has consequences.SouthamObserver said:
We already have those opportunities. We are not the only EU member state with high levels of immigration. We do seem to be the only one with a serious productivity problem.DavidL said:
It gives us opportunities to address it. Whether we seize those opportunities or let them slide through our fingers is very much up to us and those we elect. The last point may be a problem of course. Are there any adults in the room?TOPPING said:
And do you think Leaving will halt it?another_richard said:
And one more:another_richard said:
The yearning for British failure among some Remainers is very revealing.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/904787023680163840SouthamObserver said:This very good article pretty much explains why I voted Remain and why there is unlikely to be a substantial shift in public opinion for a number of years:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-sets-britain-on-a-stable-path-of-relative-decline-1.3209436?mode=amp
Lets look at some economic facts:
When did the UK last have a trade surplus month ? 1998
When did UK industrial output peak ? 2000
When did UK government debt as a % of GDP start increasing ? 2002
When did home ownerships level start falling in the UK ? 2003
When did declinism begin ?
When did UK productivity start its stagnation ? 2006
Declinism was a cause of the Leave vote, not a consequence.
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Trade is a two way street. The things we buy are just as important.Richard_Tyndall said:
Um. Our non-EU trade - or at least the important bit which is the exports - is already larger than our EU trade. Only 44% of UK goods and services exports went to the EU in 2016.Scott_P said:
I understood it perfectly, and you were simply wrongCasino_Royale said:I was explaining my view of the overall economic effects on the UK economy. Let me make it simple for you
There is no scenario where an increase in non-tariff barriers has a beneficial effect on any timescale
Our non-EU trade will always be a fraction of our EU trade. That is a matter of Geography, not politics0 -
If you actually believe that then you really are mad.TOPPING said:
They said we would have been better off economically, which indeed we might have been. Who knows?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Topping, is that larger or smaller than the expert opinion that advocated joining the euro?
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I think we can safely say that you failed to prove your first point.TOPPING said:
Not at all - DavidL said that immigration negatively affected productivity. I googled and found that one paper said that not only does it not negatively affect productivity, it increases productivity in the native workforce.eek said:
You started the argument about productivity and migration by posting the link to the paper. I merely commented on how poor it was. Its interesting to note you've changed your tune from it does have an impact to actually it doesn't..TOPPING said:First, it wasn't the best paper, it was the first one on Google. As I also said, it seems immigration is neutral towards productivity but you keep on banging on about it.
Secondly, businesses want cheap, competent labour. Often ideally, I would imagine, English-speaking. Nor can they all invest in training and arguably why should they beyond a basic level. This workforce is not being provided by our education system. That is the issue; if it was being provided then our productivity would increase.
Equally businesses don't necessarily want cheap competent labour. I may be the exception (but taking to my colleagues I'm not). What I want competent labour that allows me to make a profit its unlikely to be the cheapest...
And I thought we were talking about the fruit pickers and baristas that was depressing the wages apparently of the less well-educated. Not some techno high-flyers who are employable anywhere.
On your second one there is a reason why Lidl and Aldi pay more than the minimum wage.....0 -
No I said the internet is the biggest reason productivity is not what it could be. Do you have any evidence its not?TOPPING said:
You said the internet was the biggest barrier to increased productivity. So I suggested a couple of alternatives (banning, blowing up) to remove that barrier.Philip_Thompson said:
Who said anything about banning the internet? Are you that antithetical to serious debate?TOPPING said:
"I voted Brexit to ban the internet."Philip_Thompson said:
Do you have any evidence it is education that is the issue?TOPPING said:First, it wasn't the best paper, it was the first one on Google. As I also said, it seems immigration is neutral towards productivity but you keep on banging on about it.
Secondly, businesses want cheap, competent labour. Often ideally, I would imagine, English-speaking. Nor can they all invest in training and arguably why should they beyond a basic level. This workforce is not being provided by our education system. That is the issue; if it was being provided then our productivity would increase.
If I was to rank productivity issues I'd rank it last out of:
1: The internet being a massive distracting time waster (how many post here while they're supposed to be working)?
2: Consciously choosing less productive (but better quality) options.
3: A lack of investment in machinery.
4: Education.
Or perhaps we should blow it up?
And I must away now for a bit, team. Will read back and answer all the mad Brexiters on my return.
I asked if you had any evidence that education was our issue twice and both times you just make silly throw away remarks so I'm guessing no is the answer.0 -
F1: Claire Williams is to miss the last few races, due to pregnancy. One presumes she'll be having a team principal
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Also, the biggest factor by a long chalk when it comes to productivity is the size of the market. That is why US companies do so well, and why German ones tend to be the most productive in Europe. If you are selling jam to 300 million people you can buy bigger equipment, get cheaper raw materials and use your staff more efficiently than if your home market is only 50 million.eek said:
You started the argument about productivity and migration by posting the link to the paper. I merely commented on how poor it was. Its interesting to note you've changed your tune from it does have an impact to actually it doesn't..TOPPING said:First, it wasn't the best paper, it was the first one on Google. As I also said, it seems immigration is neutral towards productivity but you keep on banging on about it.
Secondly, businesses want cheap, competent labour. Often ideally, I would imagine, English-speaking. Nor can they all invest in training and arguably why should they beyond a basic level. This workforce is not being provided by our education system. That is the issue; if it was being provided then our productivity would increase.
Equally businesses don't necessarily want cheap competent labour. I may be the exception (but taking to my colleagues I'm not). What I want competent labour that allows me to make a profit its unlikely to be the cheapest...0 -
Yep and if we look at overall trade instead of just imports the EU is still less than 50%williamglenn said:
Trade is a two way street. The things we buy are just as important.Richard_Tyndall said:
Um. Our non-EU trade - or at least the important bit which is the exports - is already larger than our EU trade. Only 44% of UK goods and services exports went to the EU in 2016.Scott_P said:
I understood it perfectly, and you were simply wrongCasino_Royale said:I was explaining my view of the overall economic effects on the UK economy. Let me make it simple for you
There is no scenario where an increase in non-tariff barriers has a beneficial effect on any timescale
Our non-EU trade will always be a fraction of our EU trade. That is a matter of Geography, not politics
In 2015 Total trade with the EU was worth around £520 billion. At the same time total non EU trade was worth around £534 billion.
Scott is simply wrong.
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News networks were covering a Trump rally instead.Tissue_Price said:
I don't disagree, but one of the advantages of calling a surprise election is in surprising the other side.david_herdson said:
The problem wasn't the lack of preparation - Labour was similarly unprepared, as were the Scottish Tories. The problem was that so many seriously bad tactical and strategic errors were made during the campaign that they completely undermined the grand strategy. Lack of preparation was, for example, no excuse for writing the most unpopular manifesto in British history. Nor was it an excuse for airbrushing the economic achievements out of the campaign.Yorkcity said:
Morris their mindset was it was a forgone conclusion , not much preparation required.To be fair it was the same on here and I thought the same.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, as others have suspected, but it's an unforgivable sin to launch a campaign without being prepared. Not to mention being bloody stupid.
O/T I don't recall this rally from the US campaign, can anyone here remember it?
https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/9048832993188085760 -
Hillary showing the classic example of the follies of an entirely data focused campaign, if it had been her husband he would have wowed the crowd naturally without all the forced theatricsTissue_Price said:
I don't disagree, but one of the advantages of calling a surprise election is in surprising the other side.david_herdson said:
The problem wasn't the lack of preparation - Labour was similarly unprepared, as were the Scottish Tories. The problem was that so many seriously bad tactical and strategic errors were made during the campaign that they completely undermined the grand strategy. Lack of preparation was, for example, no excuse for writing the most unpopular manifesto in British history. Nor was it an excuse for airbrushing the economic achievements out of the campaign.Yorkcity said:
Morris their mindset was it was a forgone conclusion , not much preparation required.To be fair it was the same on here and I thought the same.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, as others have suspected, but it's an unforgivable sin to launch a campaign without being prepared. Not to mention being bloody stupid.
O/T I don't recall this rally from the US campaign, can anyone here remember it?
https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/904883299318808576
Hillary and Bill is rather like May and Boris you are either a natural charismatic campaigner or you are not, it can't be taught0 -
Are they quoting him because of his hacker credentials ?williamglenn said:
On that note:Casino_Royale said:
It's very possible that the rise of AI and automation sweeps away decades of assumptions about the economic importance of low-skilled mass immigration very quickly in the coming years.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed car washing is another great example. The idea of paying someone to wash your car by hand was alien for the vast majority 20 years ago, either you washed your own car or went through the automatic car wash. Now so many get their cars washed by hand. We could up our productivity by using automatic car washes but the less productive hand washes are perceived to be better.TOPPING said:I hate those nespresso machines, and the coffee they produce and there's even a nespresso shop in London, god help us.
As for productivity, you highlight an interesting point, and yes I have my car washed by a team of (probably) Latvians rather than in the BP car wash. But the fact remains that the UK's productivity lags well behind our neighbours' and we would do a lot better if we could improve it.
Yes we could do better if we improve it and we should try. But there are many intangibles like service and quality that can't be measured in these aggregate statistics.
https://twitter.com/verge/status/904628400748421122
0 -
https://orig01.deviantart.net/7466/f/2012/073/2/5/dr_robotnik_the_eggman_by_llkirbyxll-d4bhn8a.pngwilliamglenn said:
On that note:Casino_Royale said:
It's very possible that the rise of AI and automation sweeps away decades of assumptions about the economic importance of low-skilled mass immigration very quickly in the coming years.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed car washing is another great example. The idea of paying someone to wash your car by hand was alien for the vast majority 20 years ago, either you washed your own car or went through the automatic car wash. Now so many get their cars washed by hand. We could up our productivity by using automatic car washes but the less productive hand washes are perceived to be better.TOPPING said:I hate those nespresso machines, and the coffee they produce and there's even a nespresso shop in London, god help us.
As for productivity, you highlight an interesting point, and yes I have my car washed by a team of (probably) Latvians rather than in the BP car wash. But the fact remains that the UK's productivity lags well behind our neighbours' and we would do a lot better if we could improve it.
Yes we could do better if we improve it and we should try. But there are many intangibles like service and quality that can't be measured in these aggregate statistics.
https://twitter.com/verge/status/9046284007484211220 -
Things hotting up for Trump ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-donald-trump-kompromat-nikita-isaev-new-russia-movement-state-tv-us-president-a7929966.html
A Russian politician has threatened to "hit Donald Trump with our Kompromat" on state TV.
Speaking on Russia-24, Nikita Isaev, leader of the far-right New Russia Movement, said the compromising material should be released in retaliation over the closure of several Russian diplomatic compounds across the US.
When asked whether Russia has such material, Mr Isaev, who is also director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics, replied: "Of course we have it!”0 -
Please not the footage of Trump and peeing hookers.Nigelb said:Things hotting up for Trump ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-donald-trump-kompromat-nikita-isaev-new-russia-movement-state-tv-us-president-a7929966.html
A Russian politician has threatened to "hit Donald Trump with our Kompromat" on state TV.
Speaking on Russia-24, Nikita Isaev, leader of the far-right New Russia Movement, said the compromising material should be released in retaliation over the closure of several Russian diplomatic compounds across the US.
When asked whether Russia has such material, Mr Isaev, who is also director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics, replied: "Of course we have it!”
I DON'T WANT TO WRITE THAT THREAD.0 -
Is there anyone better qualified ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Please not the footage of Trump and peeing hookers.Nigelb said:Things hotting up for Trump ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-donald-trump-kompromat-nikita-isaev-new-russia-movement-state-tv-us-president-a7929966.html
A Russian politician has threatened to "hit Donald Trump with our Kompromat" on state TV.
Speaking on Russia-24, Nikita Isaev, leader of the far-right New Russia Movement, said the compromising material should be released in retaliation over the closure of several Russian diplomatic compounds across the US.
When asked whether Russia has such material, Mr Isaev, who is also director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics, replied: "Of course we have it!”
I DON'T WANT TO WRITE THAT THREAD.0 -
The title writes itself: YELLOW IS THE NEW ORANGE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Please not the footage of Trump and peeing hookers.Nigelb said:Things hotting up for Trump ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-donald-trump-kompromat-nikita-isaev-new-russia-movement-state-tv-us-president-a7929966.html
A Russian politician has threatened to "hit Donald Trump with our Kompromat" on state TV.
Speaking on Russia-24, Nikita Isaev, leader of the far-right New Russia Movement, said the compromising material should be released in retaliation over the closure of several Russian diplomatic compounds across the US.
When asked whether Russia has such material, Mr Isaev, who is also director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics, replied: "Of course we have it!”
I DON'T WANT TO WRITE THAT THREAD.0 -
I think you just answered my question to TSE...Dura_Ace said:
The title writes itself: YELLOW IS THE NEW ORANGE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Please not the footage of Trump and peeing hookers.Nigelb said:Things hotting up for Trump ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-donald-trump-kompromat-nikita-isaev-new-russia-movement-state-tv-us-president-a7929966.html
A Russian politician has threatened to "hit Donald Trump with our Kompromat" on state TV.
Speaking on Russia-24, Nikita Isaev, leader of the far-right New Russia Movement, said the compromising material should be released in retaliation over the closure of several Russian diplomatic compounds across the US.
When asked whether Russia has such material, Mr Isaev, who is also director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics, replied: "Of course we have it!”
I DON'T WANT TO WRITE THAT THREAD.0 -
You're clearly bursting to.TheScreamingEagles said:
Please not the footage of Trump and peeing hookers.Nigelb said:Things hotting up for Trump ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-donald-trump-kompromat-nikita-isaev-new-russia-movement-state-tv-us-president-a7929966.html
A Russian politician has threatened to "hit Donald Trump with our Kompromat" on state TV.
Speaking on Russia-24, Nikita Isaev, leader of the far-right New Russia Movement, said the compromising material should be released in retaliation over the closure of several Russian diplomatic compounds across the US.
When asked whether Russia has such material, Mr Isaev, who is also director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics, replied: "Of course we have it!”
I DON'T WANT TO WRITE THAT THREAD.0 -
Actually I've already written and published that thread.Nigelb said:
Is there anyone better qualified ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Please not the footage of Trump and peeing hookers.Nigelb said:Things hotting up for Trump ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-donald-trump-kompromat-nikita-isaev-new-russia-movement-state-tv-us-president-a7929966.html
A Russian politician has threatened to "hit Donald Trump with our Kompromat" on state TV.
Speaking on Russia-24, Nikita Isaev, leader of the far-right New Russia Movement, said the compromising material should be released in retaliation over the closure of several Russian diplomatic compounds across the US.
When asked whether Russia has such material, Mr Isaev, who is also director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics, replied: "Of course we have it!”
I DON'T WANT TO WRITE THAT THREAD.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/01/15/want-to-bet-on-footage-of-that-golden-shower-appearing-on-a-porn-site-yes-wee-can/0 -
Stop taking the piss.Tissue_Price said:
You're clearly bursting to.TheScreamingEagles said:
Please not the footage of Trump and peeing hookers.Nigelb said:Things hotting up for Trump ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-donald-trump-kompromat-nikita-isaev-new-russia-movement-state-tv-us-president-a7929966.html
A Russian politician has threatened to "hit Donald Trump with our Kompromat" on state TV.
Speaking on Russia-24, Nikita Isaev, leader of the far-right New Russia Movement, said the compromising material should be released in retaliation over the closure of several Russian diplomatic compounds across the US.
When asked whether Russia has such material, Mr Isaev, who is also director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics, replied: "Of course we have it!”
I DON'T WANT TO WRITE THAT THREAD.0 -
I hope he's done scat stuff as well.0
-
Happy Birthday to Voyager 1.
Not in Kansas any more.. https://theskylive.com/voyager1-tracker only 19.34 light hours from home...0 -
Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/0 -
Andrew Adonis 'If Jeremy Corbyn fights another general election as leader he will lose it'
https://mobile.twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/9049935535116779520 -
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/
0 -
Gives a whole new meaning to Churchill's dictum...TheScreamingEagles said:
Stop taking the piss.Tissue_Price said:
You're clearly bursting to.TheScreamingEagles said:
Please not the footage of Trump and peeing hookers.Nigelb said:Things hotting up for Trump ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-donald-trump-kompromat-nikita-isaev-new-russia-movement-state-tv-us-president-a7929966.html
A Russian politician has threatened to "hit Donald Trump with our Kompromat" on state TV.
Speaking on Russia-24, Nikita Isaev, leader of the far-right New Russia Movement, said the compromising material should be released in retaliation over the closure of several Russian diplomatic compounds across the US.
When asked whether Russia has such material, Mr Isaev, who is also director of the Russian Institute of Contemporary Economics, replied: "Of course we have it!”
I DON'T WANT TO WRITE THAT THREAD.
"...I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma..."0 -
Jacob Rees Mogg is now Tory Party members preferred choice to succeed May as Tory leader according to a new conservativehome poll
JRM 22%
Davis 15%
Boris 7%
Raab 7%
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/jacob-rees-mogg-tops-our-next-tory-leader-survey-of-conservative-opinion.html0 -
Oh, yes ! Iceland ! That's what we have come down to. Quoting the foreign minister of a country with less population than London Boroughs of Barnet, Croydon or Ealing [ not put together ].SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/0 -
Yes they can really stiff us over by having free trade both ways.SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/
How much is the import duty on Scotch whisky into Iceland ?
0 -
We have been saying goodbye to it for so long.......the battery is still going. Or, is it nuclear ?Pulpstar said:Happy Birthday to Voyager 1.
Not in Kansas any more.. https://theskylive.com/voyager1-tracker only 19.34 light hours from home...0 -
Iceland is in the EEA.TGOHF said:
Yes they can really stiff us over by having free trade both ways.SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/
How much is the import duty on Scotch whisky into Iceland ?0 -
Let's all laugh at tinpot countries, as Estonia takes over the EU Presidency from Malta.surbiton said:
Oh, yes ! Iceland ! That's what we have come down to. Quoting the foreign minister of a country with less population than London Boroughs of Barnet, Croydon or Ealing [ not put together ].SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/0 -
No idea at all.TGOHF said:
Yes they can really stiff us over by having free trade both ways.SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/
How much is the import duty on Scotch whisky into Iceland ?
How much Scotch whisky can we actually sell to Iceland?
How many FTAs provide for untrammelled free trade in both directions?
0 -
Both big parties are seemingly intent on veering to their extremes.HYUFD said:Jacob Rees Mogg is now Tory Party members preferred choice to succeed May as Tory leader according to a new conservativehome poll
JRM 22%
Davis 15%
Boris 7%
Raab 7%
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/jacob-rees-mogg-tops-our-next-tory-leader-survey-of-conservative-opinion.html
0 -
So they can sell us cheap fish ?williamglenn said:
Iceland is in the EEA.TGOHF said:
Yes they can really stiff us over by having free trade both ways.SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/
How much is the import duty on Scotch whisky into Iceland ?0 -
Can't imagine why Nigel Farage is campaigning for a party that had links with people and far right groups who wanted to shoot immigrants.
https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/9046168097725767680 -
Mr Thordason has been around Icelandic politics forever and was part of the Haarde government that spectacularly bankrupted Iceland. I know you shouldn't play the man, but I don't think he is particularly qualified to advise.surbiton said:
Oh, yes ! Iceland ! That's what we have come down to. Quoting the foreign minister of a country with less population than London Boroughs of Barnet, Croydon or Ealing [ not put together ].SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/0 -
Indeed ...Ishmael_Z said:
Let's all laugh at tinpot countries, as Estonia takes over the EU Presidency from Malta.surbiton said:
Oh, yes ! Iceland ! That's what we have come down to. Quoting the foreign minister of a country with less population than London Boroughs of Barnet, Croydon or Ealing [ not put together ].SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-mp-dismisses-malta-as-a-tiny-little-island_uk_5878bbc0e4b074eb45cd6ca5
0 -
On the basis of that poll if JRM gets enough MPs to get to the membership the next general election will be Mogg v Corbyn. A return to the 1950s or the 1970s the choice is yours!SouthamObserver said:
Both big parties are seemingly intent on veering to their extremes.HYUFD said:Jacob Rees Mogg is now Tory Party members preferred choice to succeed May as Tory leader according to a new conservativehome poll
JRM 22%
Davis 15%
Boris 7%
Raab 7%
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/jacob-rees-mogg-tops-our-next-tory-leader-survey-of-conservative-opinion.html0 -
surely that's the 1750's in the case of Mogg.HYUFD said:
On the basis of that poll if JRM gets enough MPs to get to the membership the next general election will be Mogg v Corbyn. A return to the 1950s or the 1970s the choice is yours!SouthamObserver said:
Both big parties are seemingly intent on veering to their extremes.HYUFD said:Jacob Rees Mogg is now Tory Party members preferred choice to succeed May as Tory leader according to a new conservativehome poll
JRM 22%
Davis 15%
Boris 7%
Raab 7%
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/jacob-rees-mogg-tops-our-next-tory-leader-survey-of-conservative-opinion.html0 -
Not sure Adonis has a very good electoral track record!HYUFD said:Andrew Adonis 'If Jeremy Corbyn fights another general election as leader he will lose it'
https://mobile.twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/904993553511677952
0 -
Some very interesting observations in this thread on lessons in populism from Greece.
https://twitter.com/SKalyvas/status/8322088164103290890 -
A Haarde man is good to find.FF43 said:
Mr Thordason has been around Icelandic politics forever and was part of the Haarde government that spectacularly bankrupted Iceland. I know you shouldn't play the man, but I don't think he is particularly qualified to advise.surbiton said:
Oh, yes ! Iceland ! That's what we have come down to. Quoting the foreign minister of a country with less population than London Boroughs of Barnet, Croydon or Ealing [ not put together ].SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/
He was not found to be negligent by the Althing investigation of the crisis (when other ministers were).0 -
Yes, what Adonis really means is that he's afraid Corbyn might win and that would be disastrous.foxinsoxuk said:
Not sure Adonis has a very good electoral track record!HYUFD said:Andrew Adonis 'If Jeremy Corbyn fights another general election as leader he will lose it'
https://mobile.twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/9049935535116779520 -
He was a Blair supporter!foxinsoxuk said:
Not sure Adonis has a very good electoral track record!HYUFD said:Andrew Adonis 'If Jeremy Corbyn fights another general election as leader he will lose it'
https://mobile.twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/9049935535116779520 -
No engagement with argument. Business as usual.surbiton said:
Oh, yes ! Iceland ! That's what we have come down to. Quoting the foreign minister of a country with less population than London Boroughs of Barnet, Croydon or Ealing [ not put together ].SouthamObserver said:
Makes sense - there will never be a better time to dictate terms to the UK than now. Every country in the world knows how important it will be politically for the government to get some FTAs signed quickly. But, clearly, no-one will finalise anything until the final provisions of the deal with the EU are known.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/0 -
The Seventies were more fun, definitely!HYUFD said:
On the basis of that poll if JRM gets enough MPs to get to the membership the next general election will be Mogg v Corbyn. A return to the 1950s or the 1970s the choice is yours!SouthamObserver said:
Both big parties are seemingly intent on veering to their extremes.HYUFD said:Jacob Rees Mogg is now Tory Party members preferred choice to succeed May as Tory leader according to a new conservativehome poll
JRM 22%
Davis 15%
Boris 7%
Raab 7%
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/jacob-rees-mogg-tops-our-next-tory-leader-survey-of-conservative-opinion.html0 -
Or even the 1550s (pre civil war and Glorious Revolution which were a bit too reformist for his tastes)eek said:
surely that's the 1750's in the case of Mogg.HYUFD said:
On the basis of that poll if JRM gets enough MPs to get to the membership the next general election will be Mogg v Corbyn. A return to the 1950s or the 1970s the choice is yours!SouthamObserver said:
Both big parties are seemingly intent on veering to their extremes.HYUFD said:Jacob Rees Mogg is now Tory Party members preferred choice to succeed May as Tory leader according to a new conservativehome poll
JRM 22%
Davis 15%
Boris 7%
Raab 7%
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/jacob-rees-mogg-tops-our-next-tory-leader-survey-of-conservative-opinion.html0 -
Not if my mother is anything to go by, she almost got pneumonia waiting for a train in the late 1970s in the middle of winter because of strikesfoxinsoxuk said:
The Seventies were more fun, definitely!HYUFD said:
On the basis of that poll if JRM gets enough MPs to get to the membership the next general election will be Mogg v Corbyn. A return to the 1950s or the 1970s the choice is yours!SouthamObserver said:
Both big parties are seemingly intent on veering to their extremes.HYUFD said:Jacob Rees Mogg is now Tory Party members preferred choice to succeed May as Tory leader according to a new conservativehome poll
JRM 22%
Davis 15%
Boris 7%
Raab 7%
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/jacob-rees-mogg-tops-our-next-tory-leader-survey-of-conservative-opinion.html0 -
Sixth largest now.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/0 -
These rankings are very deceptive. Our economy is less than 4% of global GDP.619 said:
Sixth largest now.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/
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He was only ever elected as a councillor, for the SDP. After that he was appointed rather than elected.HYUFD said:
He was a Blair supporter!foxinsoxuk said:
Not sure Adonis has a very good electoral track record!HYUFD said:Andrew Adonis 'If Jeremy Corbyn fights another general election as leader he will lose it'
https://mobile.twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/904993553511677952
On the other had he is one of very few members of the Lords who was in care as a child, so perhaps brings something to that House. .0 -
NEW THREAD
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Still bigger than India, Brazil, Australia, Indonesia, South Korea, Switzerland, Argentina, South Africa, Nigeria etc all of which are still independent nationswilliamglenn said:
These rankings are very deceptive. Our economy is less than 4% of global GDP.619 said:
Sixth largest now.CarlottaVance said:Iceland's foreign minister defied the funereal dirge about Britain's future trade prospects coming from Remainers, as he offered some cool-headed pragmatism. "Everyone wants to have a free trade deal with Britain," he said, explaining:
"You're the fifth largest economy in the world. Everyone wants to sell you goods and services, it's just as simple as that."
Mr Thordarson's observation shouldn't be a surprise, as Remainers have worked hard to make out that Britain's trading potential relies on it being part enmeshed in the European Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/05/iceland-has-exposed-remainers-gloom-wouldnt-want-trade-brexit/0
