politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Jacob Rees-Mogg heads for the favourite slot in the TMay succe
Options
Comments
-
I do remember one survey that found 20% of Trump's voters in the Primaries thought that ending slavery was a bad thing, and 17% weren't sure.Cyclefree said:
That may well be so. But those protesting against the removal were not doing so because they wanted historical accuracy or because they were against historical revisionism. This was not a polite protest by history professors. The protestors were doing so to make a point about how they should be in charge and able to oppress others ie blacks and were doing so in the most offensive way possible. And they seemed determined on violence and did use it, as a result of which a young woman has been killed and others injured.HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
They may have had a legal right to protest and be offensive. But others are entitled to object and protest also. And there is a moral difference between those who use their right to free speech to champion Nazism and the oppression of blacks and those who use this same right to protest against these things. The former are morally disgraceful. Trump failed to make - and perhaps even understand - this distinction in his comments on the violence. That is why he is rightly being criticised.
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.0 -
The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.0 -
The Founding Fathers quite deliberately modelled the US on Republican Rome, and saw no conflict between slavery and the Rights of Man.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. B, Republican Rome was also heavily into slavery.
As was the African economy before the British Empire arrived on the scene.
Read here yesterday Napoleon reintroduced it to France.0 -
JRM makes me think of John Major - unabashed Tory, finance history, willing to debate in public. Obviously he has a different background, but otherwise the similarities are striking.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.0 -
Plus of course he was born with a tin spoon in his mouth, but he has made a huge success of his chosen career. Some will not forgive him the leg up he got from his family, and fair enough, but he is no Jacob nice but dimMortimer said:
JRM makes me think of John Major - unabashed Tory, finance background, willing to debate in public. Obviously he has a different background, but otherwise the similarities are striking.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.0 -
Not a knockdown point; the well-known slave-owner Thomas Jefferson had an anti-slavery rant in his first draft of the DoE. It was deleted prior to signature.Nigelb said:
Constantine was not leader of a republic which held as self evident "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...", Mr.D.Morris_Dancer said:There's a small statue of Constantine the Great outside York Minster. If we're pulling down statues and monuments to those who held slaves, then we can kiss goodbye to the Romans.
(Edit) Nor are his statues emblems for lost causers and white supremacists.0 -
It's highly unlikely I'll vote conservative in the foreseeable future but if JRM becomes leader the chances increase substantially.0
-
Is this still a silly season joke, or is it actually happening?
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/8969685595444142080 -
Conservative party response to Corbyn's unexpected June result.
'hold my pint'
Behold His Moggesty.0 -
Except it is not the South that is inflamed. Indeed it was the people of Charlottesville that wanted the statue gone, and a killer from Ohio who wanted it preserved.HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
The profiles of the racists protesting is one of alt.rights ists and neo-nazis who had travelled to protest there from across middle America.0 -
In what other nation are the statues of those who led the armies of an insurrection in defence of the institution of slavery still extant on a large scale as totems for white supremacists, Mr.D ?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. B, Republican Rome was also heavily into slavery.
As was the African economy before the British Empire arrived on the scene.
Read here yesterday Napoleon reintroduced it to France.0 -
I've proposed this many times, though James hasn't followed my idea of making the Senators wearing togas optional.
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/8970044047165808650 -
I'd forgotten he had a couple of extra turns as Chancellor when he couldn't command a majority of the house of Commons...ydoethur said:
Disraeli was Chancellor in 1868 when he became PM for the first time. (And he wasn't Beaconsfield in 1874 either - that came later.)Charles said:
Arguably Beaconsfield wasn't de facto leader of the opposition when he finally became PM. Although he had been chancellor for a couple of months a decade before...ydoethur said:Incidentally, I was running through the list of Prime Ministers and excluding Churchill - who was First Lord of the Admiralty in 1940 but had also previously been Chancellor - who do you think was what last PM who was not either the acknowledged Leader of the Opposition or a holder of a Great Office of State?
It is a very easy answer, when you think about it.
Hint - he had once commanded the second-largest army in Europe.
Wellington probably
You are right, it was Wellington in 1828.0 -
There is a market for politicians who appear to be unspun. Corbyn is not quite as unspun as he claims. And he - and his supporters - have been more than capable of subterfuge.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.
Nor is Mogg quite as unspun as he claims. As far as I can tell his main claims to fame are that he wears suits, has a nanny who must have remarkable stamina and be quite old by now, is very polite and once made a good joke at Dimbleby's expense.
Am I missing something?0 -
There's a difference between an immediate response to overthrowing a despotic regime and a politically motivated campaign 150 years later.foxinsoxuk said:
Surely it was also wrong to remove all those Communist statues after the wall fell down, Saddam's statues in Iraq and obviously wrong to remove statues of Kim Jung In after he gets deposed?Pulpstar said:Culturally inconvenient statues coming down ?
I think we can all agree that was the right thing to do in Palmyra. The band and Baez's cover should probably be banned too.0 -
That was a Economist/YouGov exit poll.Sean_F said:
I do remember one survey that found 20% of Trump's voters in the Primaries thought that ending slavery was a bad thing, and 17% weren't sure.Cyclefree said:
That may well be so. But those protesting against the removal were not doing so because they wanted historical accuracy or because they were against historical revisionism. This was not a polite protest by history professors. The protestors were doing so to make a point about how they should be in charge and able to oppress others ie blacks and were doing so in the most offensive way possible. And they seemed determined on violence and did use it, as a result of which a young woman has been killed and others injured.HYUFD said:ydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
They may have had a legal right to protest and be offensive. But others are entitled to object and protest also. And there is a moral difference between those who use their right to free speech to champion Nazism and the oppression of blacks and those who use this same right to protest against these things. The former are morally disgraceful. Trump failed to make - and perhaps even understand - this distinction in his comments on the violence. That is why he is rightly being criticised.
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
It actually threw up some fun results:
...from the same Economist /YouGov poll:
Only 71% of American blacks approve of the Emancipation Proclamation. Five percent disapprove and 24% aren’t sure.
32% of American blacks back President Franklin Roosevelt’s decision to round up Japanese-Americans and put them in camps during World War II … almost exactly the same percentage as among Trump voters.
More than 30% of those UNDER 30 are not sure that President Harry Truman’s 1948 executive order desegregating the U.S. military was a good idea. 15% are sure it wasn’t.
43% of likely Democratic primary voters, a very liberal slice of America, approve of President George W. Bush’s pro-torture executive order after 9/11.
So welcome to some very off the wall results in that survey!0 -
Mr. B, not sure. But there is, as I said, the statue of a man who had his own wife and eldest son executed whilst presiding over a slave-ridden empire outside York Minster.
Caesar massacred hundreds of thousands of tribesmen who were conducting peace negotiations.
Mr. Charles, indeed.0 -
I expect some people were just having fun.GeoffM said:
That was a Economist/YouGov exit poll.Sean_F said:
I do remember one survey that found 20% of Trump's voters in the Primaries thought that ending slavery was a bad thing, and 17% weren't sure.Cyclefree said:
That may well beHYUFD said:ydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
It actually threw up some fun results:
...from the same Economist /YouGov poll:
Only 71% of American blacks approve of the Emancipation Proclamation. Five percent disapprove and 24% aren’t sure.
32% of American blacks back President Franklin Roosevelt’s decision to round up Japanese-Americans and put them in camps during World War II … almost exactly the same percentage as among Trump voters.
More than 30% of those UNDER 30 are not sure that President Harry Truman’s 1948 executive order desegregating the U.S. military was a good idea. 15% are sure it wasn’t.
43% of likely Democratic primary voters, a very liberal slice of America, approve of President George W. Bush’s pro-torture executive order after 9/11.
So welcome to some very off the wall results in that survey!0 -
Surely secedes...Sean_F said:
Treason never prospers, for if it succeeds, it ceases to be treason.malcolmg said:
Depends on what side you favoured.Alistair said:
Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.Casino_Royale said:FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.
Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.
I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.
There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.
He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason0 -
I'm as surprised as anyone, but his ability to actually listen to questions and provide cogent and often witty answers on pretty much all platforms - in parliament, in public, on the radio and on TV - puts him head and shoulders above many MPs and most in the cabinet and shadow cabinet.Cyclefree said:
There is a market for politicians who appear to be unspun. Corbyn is not quite as unspun as he claims. And he - and his supporters - have been more than capable of subterfuge.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.
Nor is Mogg quite as unspun as he claims. As far as I can tell his main claims to fame are that he wears suits, has a nanny who must have remarkable stamina and be quite old by now, is very polite and once made a good joke at Dimbleby's expense.
Am I missing something?
His positions, whilst traditional Tory, are so well explained and politely put that they seem to get an honest hearing where Cameron, May and others cannot.0 -
Surely each generation gets to choose it's heroes. We are not bound to keep a statue just because someone long forgotten once put one there.Charles said:
There's a difference between an immediate response to overthrowing a despotic regime and a politically motivated campaign 150 years later.foxinsoxuk said:
Surely it was also wrong to remove all those Communist statues after the wall fell down, Saddam's statues in Iraq and obviously wrong to remove statues of Kim Jung In after he gets deposed?Pulpstar said:Culturally inconvenient statues coming down ?
I think we can all agree that was the right thing to do in Palmyra. The band and Baez's cover should probably be banned too.
0 -
The statue was only erected in the 1920s - it's erection was a politically motivated campaign over 50 yeas later.Charles said:
There's a difference between an immediate response to overthrowing a despotic regime and a politically motivated campaign 150 years later.foxinsoxuk said:
Surely it was also wrong to remove all those Communist statues after the wall fell down, Saddam's statues in Iraq and obviously wrong to remove statues of Kim Jung In after he gets deposed?Pulpstar said:Culturally inconvenient statues coming down ?
I think we can all agree that was the right thing to do in Palmyra. The band and Baez's cover should probably be banned too.0 -
He has a view on what he wants. As far as I've studied him (which I haven't). Which is perhaps the point; he appears to be a pretty straight guy, and that might be enough. He is no fool either, and has enough money to be able to rise above the perception of money-grabbing self-interest by politicians.Cyclefree said:
There is a market for politicians who appear to be unspun. Corbyn is not quite as unspun as he claims. And he - and his supporters - have been more than capable of subterfuge.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.
Nor is Mogg quite as unspun as he claims. As far as I can tell his main claims to fame are that he wears suits, has a nanny who must have remarkable stamina and be quite old by now, is very polite and once made a good joke at Dimbleby's expense.
Am I missing something?0 -
I don't think anyone is unspun, really: as you say, certainly not Corbyn. On the other hand JRM's oddities are not obviously intended to please the crowd - comparisons to Boris Johnson are lazy and wrong.Cyclefree said:
There is a market for politicians who appear to be unspun. Corbyn is not quite as unspun as he claims. And he - and his supporters - have been more than capable of subterfuge.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.
Nor is Mogg quite as unspun as he claims. As far as I can tell his main claims to fame are that he wears suits, has a nanny who must have remarkable stamina and be quite old by now, is very polite and once made a good joke at Dimbleby's expense.
Am I missing something?
Watch this from 8.38 onwards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCEpSWQsRPE
I still find it extraordinary - JRM confesses to being too loaded to bother to claim MPs expenses, but it is not he but Richard Burgon (on a different topic sadly edited out) who gets derided by the audience for "living in a Westminster bubble".0 -
Lol.ydoethur said:
Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor. Which so far nobody has done so far as I know.
Google: Nicola Sturgeon traitor
About 240,000 results (0.59 seconds)
https://www.thecanary.co/2017/03/15/telegraph-calls-beheading-traitor-nicola-sturgeon-image/
0 -
Nor are we bound to turf it out because someone or some movement who may well soon be long forgotten disagrees.Jonathan said:
Surely each generation gets to choose it's heroes. We are not bound to keep a statue just because someone long forgotten once put one there.Charles said:
There's a difference between an immediate response to overthrowing a despotic regime and a politically motivated campaign 150 years later.foxinsoxuk said:
Surely it was also wrong to remove all those Communist statues after the wall fell down, Saddam's statues in Iraq and obviously wrong to remove statues of Kim Jung In after he gets deposed?Pulpstar said:Culturally inconvenient statues coming down ?
I think we can all agree that was the right thing to do in Palmyra. The band and Baez's cover should probably be banned too.
Remember, that causes such as Rhodes must fall and the nascent US iconoclasm are hardly majority sports - they're minority positions often pandered too by identity politics.0 -
Mogg is eloquent. He also gets a hearing because he sounds fresh compared to machine pols.Mortimer said:
I'm as surprised as anyone, but his ability to actually listen to questions and provide cogent and often witty answers on pretty much all platforms - in parliament, in public, on the radio and on TV - puts him head and shoulders above many MPs and most in the cabinet and shadow cabinet.Cyclefree said:
There is a market for politicians who appear to be unspun. Corbyn is not quite as unspun as he claims. And he - and his supporters - have been more than capable of subterfuge.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.
Nor is Mogg quite as unspun as he claims. As far as I can tell his main claims to fame are that he wears suits, has a nanny who must have remarkable stamina and be quite old by now, is very polite and once made a good joke at Dimbleby's expense.
Am I missing something?
His positions, whilst traditional Tory, are so well explained and politely put that they seem to get an honest hearing where Cameron, May and others cannot.
But he is also breathtakingly arrogant, somewhat pompous and detached.0 -
So it has been there almost a centuryAlistair said:
The statue was only erected in the 1920s - it's erection was a politically motivated campaign over 50 yeas later.Charles said:
There's a difference between an immediate response to overthrowing a despotic regime and a politically motivated campaign 150 years later.foxinsoxuk said:
Surely it was also wrong to remove all those Communist statues after the wall fell down, Saddam's statues in Iraq and obviously wrong to remove statues of Kim Jung In after he gets deposed?Pulpstar said:Culturally inconvenient statues coming down ?
I think we can all agree that was the right thing to do in Palmyra. The band and Baez's cover should probably be banned too.0 -
-
0
-
Anymore than any politician? I think not....Jonathan said:Mortimer said:
I'm as surprised as anyone, but his ability to actually listen to questions and provide cogent and often witty answers on pretty much all platforms - in parliament, in public, on the radio and on TV - puts him head and shoulders above many MPs and most in the cabinet and shadow cabinet.Cyclefree said:
There is a market for politicians who appear to be unspun. Corbyn is not quite as unspun as he claims. And he - and his supporters - have been more than capable of subterfuge.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.
Nor is Mogg quite as unspun as he claims. As far as I can tell his main claims to fame are that he wears suits, has a nanny who must have remarkable stamina and be quite old by now, is very polite and once made a good joke at Dimbleby's expense.
Am I missing something?
His positions, whilst traditional Tory, are so well explained and politely put that they seem to get an honest hearing where Cameron, May and others cannot.
But he is also breathtakingly arrogant, somewhat pompous and detached.0 -
Mr. Jonathan, that's a boiled egg choice, though. Tear down a statue, and it's gone forever.
Apply that through history and sooner or later every statue will be gone.0 -
You realise he was just quoting the West Wing?Cyclefree said:HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
Lord Marbury : "The darkness in our sunshine, the shadow in our souls, the biblical sins of the fathers. For Americans, it's slavery. Slavery is your original sin. That and your unfortunate history with your aborigines."
Toby : "Native Americans."
Lord Marbury : "For the English, it's Ireland."0 -
The problem with that is that, although the campaign might be 150 years later, the negative aspects behind the character commemorated still thrive in US society. It is as much about today as it is about when he lived. This is exactly why he inspires neo-Nazis and repels others.Charles said:
There's a difference between an immediate response to overthrowing a despotic regime and a politically motivated campaign 150 years later.foxinsoxuk said:
Surely it was also wrong to remove all those Communist statues after the wall fell down, Saddam's statues in Iraq and obviously wrong to remove statues of Kim Jung In after he gets deposed?Pulpstar said:Culturally inconvenient statues coming down ?
I think we can all agree that was the right thing to do in Palmyra. The band and Baez's cover should probably be banned too.
Statues of Boudicea and other far historical figures differ as they were so long ago that no-one is affected by their actions, and the characters themselves have undergone a Waverleyisation that means the statues represent a fiction rather than fact. Boudicea isn't commemorated because of her actions; she is commemorated as a quasi-fictional image of Britain.
As the action of the neo-Nazi thugs show, the statue represents nothing positive. Perhaps in another 150 years that may be different, but sadly it isn't at the moment.0 -
He's a superb performer.Mortimer said:
I'm as surprised as anyone, but his ability to actually listen to questions and provide cogent and often witty answers on pretty much all platforms - in parliament, in public, on the radio and on TV - puts him head and shoulders above many MPs and most in the cabinet and shadow cabinet.Cyclefree said:
There is a market for politicians who appear to be unspun. Corbyn is not quite as unspun as he claims. And he - and his supporters - have been more than capable of subterfuge.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.
Nor is Mogg quite as unspun as he claims. As far as I can tell his main claims to fame are that he wears suits, has a nanny who must have remarkable stamina and be quite old by now, is very polite and once made a good joke at Dimbleby's expense.
Am I missing something?
His positions, whilst traditional Tory, are so well explained and politely put that they seem to get an honest hearing where Cameron, May and others cannot.
Not many Tories could get a round of applause on Have I Got News for You.
I'd have thought he is an asset to the Conservatives doing that kind of thing, being a semi-independent advocate for their policies, rather than trying to climb the greasy government pole and having to take inauthentic positions.0 -
And there we have it demonstrated in minutes - someone more arrogant, pompous and self regarding.AlastairMeeks said:0 -
If you took a poll of the old states of the Confederacy I bet a majority would want the statue to stayfoxinsoxuk said:
Except it is not the South that is inflamed. Indeed it was the people of Charlottesville that wanted the statue gone, and a killer from Ohio who wanted it preserved.HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
The profiles of the racists protesting is one of alt.rights ists and neo-nazis who had travelled to protest there from across middle America.0 -
In a democracy if the people want to get rid of a statue, it's hard to argue that they should be forced to keep it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, that's a boiled egg choice, though. Tear down a statue, and it's gone forever.
Apply that through history and sooner or later every statue will be gone.
Sooner or later all statues are gone anyway.
"'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings..."0 -
He freed the slaves on his father's plantation when he came of agePhilip_Thompson said:
If he was so anti slavery how come he was a slave holder himself?HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?0 -
How shit was Clinton that she lost to him?619 said:barely 6 months into office Trump is juggling impeachment, Nuclear war, and a Nazi uprising but on the bright side he's meeting expectations
0 -
So? Does that make it less correct?Charles said:
You realise he was just quoting the West Wing?Cyclefree said:HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
Lord Marbury : "The darkness in our sunshine, the shadow in our souls, the biblical sins of the fathers. For Americans, it's slavery. Slavery is your original sin. That and your unfortunate
history with your aborigines."
Toby : "Native Americans."
Lord Marbury : "For the English, it's Ireland."0 -
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
0 -
Boris leads the polls of next Tory potential leaders with all votersBeverley_C said:
To me, Boris comes across as a posh buffoon and JRM comes across as an other-worldly dilettante. I cannot envision either of them as capable leaders.HYUFD said:Rees-Mogg is more a potential Tory opposition leader than PM for me so I agree with him on that. I think the next Tory leader and PM will be either Boris or Davis but Davis could be tainted by compromises in the Brexit talks. However those who diss Rees-Mogg as too much of a maverick and too extreme should remember the same was said of Corbyn
Still, I am not a Tory Party member, so I guess if the Tories think one of these two is the way forward then elect one of them leader and see what the voters think.0 -
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:0 -
Don't confuse history for nostalgia. The old has to make way for the new.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, that's a boiled egg choice, though. Tear down a statue, and it's gone forever.
Apply that through history and sooner or later every statue will be gone.0 -
On the radio she said (roughly) "He's nice, very generous and has been kind and welcoming to me as a new MP. But he's not the face that I want the Tory party to present to the country"Mortimer said:
And there we have it demonstrated in minutes - someone more arrogant, pompous and self regarding.AlastairMeeks said:
I'd have thought nice, kind, generous and welcoming would be a distinct improvement over the current set up!0 -
Unlike Jefferson. Difficult not to see the Founding Fathers as a bunch of proto-Trumps. "We will make a great declaration – and nobody makes declarations better than us."HYUFD said:
He freed the slaves on his plantationPhilip_Thompson said:
If he was so anti slavery how come he was a slave holder himself?HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?0 -
Heidi Allen's my MP, and she appears to be none of those things. I'd agree if you were talking about her immediate predecessor, who was invisible within the constituency.Mortimer said:
And there we have it demonstrated in minutes - someone more arrogant, pompous and self regarding.AlastairMeeks said:
Now, if only I'd voted for her. 0 -
Hang on. His Moggesty is definitely more detached. He revels in it.Mortimer said:
Anymore than any politician? I think not....Jonathan said:Mortimer said:
I'm as surprised as anyone, but his ability to actually listen to questions and provide cogent and often witty answers on pretty much all platforms - in parliament, in public, on the radio and on TV - puts him head and shoulders above many MPs and most in the cabinet and shadow cabinet.Cyclefree said:
There is a market for politicians who appear to be unspun. Corbyn is not quite as unspun as he claims. And he - and his supporters - have been more than capable of subterfuge.TOPPING said:The issue turns on whether his position as a sensible, straight-talking politician who doesn't go in for spin or subterfuge can overcome, or render irrelevant his toffness. A bit like Nige, that public school-educated, commodity-dealing man of the people. But moreso, obvs.
Let us not forget there is a market for unspun politicians right now, on whichever side.
Nor is Mogg quite as unspun as he claims. As far as I can tell his main claims to fame are that he wears suits, has a nanny who must have remarkable stamina and be quite old by now, is very polite and once made a good joke at Dimbleby's expense.
Am I missing something?
His positions, whilst traditional Tory, are so well explained and politely put that they seem to get an honest hearing where Cameron, May and others cannot.
But he is also breathtakingly arrogant, somewhat pompous and detached.0 -
No, but it does make him less insightful.JosiasJessop said:
So? Does that make it less correct?Charles said:
You realise he was just quoting the West Wing?Cyclefree said:HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
Lord Marbury : "The darkness in our sunshine, the shadow in our souls, the biblical sins of the fathers. For Americans, it's slavery. Slavery is your original sin. That and your unfortunate
history with your aborigines."
Toby : "Native Americans."
Lord Marbury : "For the English, it's Ireland."0 -
He freed the slaves on his father-in-laws plantation after holding on to them for the maximum of 5 years that his father-in-law's will allowed.HYUFD said:
He freed the slaves on his father's plantation when he came of agePhilip_Thompson said:
If he was so anti slavery how come he was a slave holder himself?HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?0 -
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two. Presumably there are enough of them to make it so?AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
Then the choices are BJ, Fox, Davis, Patel (?), Gove... or JRM.
I could imagine BJ and Gove conspiring to destroy each other, Fox is tainted goods and has failed previously, Davis might decide he doesn't want it...
JRM would be in with a chance if he went for it I think.0 -
Except that statue is still there. Admittedly fallen over.rkrkrk said:
In a democracy if the people want to get rid of a statue, it's hard to argue that they should be forced to keep it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, that's a boiled egg choice, though. Tear down a statue, and it's gone forever.
Apply that through history and sooner or later every statue will be gone.
Sooner or later all statues are gone anyway.
"'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings..."0 -
Mr. rkrkrk, willing the destruction of history and historical artefacts is unwise.
Mr. Jonathan, modernity and progress are not the same thing. Someone living in Rome during Vespasian's reign would not be delighted with the situation two, or four, centuries later.0 -
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:0 -
This country suffers from an excess of nostalgia, not modernity.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. rkrkrk, willing the destruction of history and historical artefacts is unwise.
Mr. Jonathan, modernity and progress are not the same thing. Someone living in Rome during Vespasian's reign would not be delighted with the situation two, or four, centuries later.0 -
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.0 -
Mr. Jonathan, not nostalgia, a memory and understanding of the past.
The Speaker dressing as a supply teacher and removing the wigs from the clerks suggests that's not uniformly true.0 -
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.0 -
Democracies unfortunately do have a tendency to do unwise things on occasion.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. rkrkrk, willing the destruction of history and historical artefacts is unwise.
In any case - I understand the movement is trying to remove the statue not destroy it.0 -
Oddly, Corbyn suffers from immense nostalgia: not just politically, but his fondness for manhole covers shows he is wedded to the past, not the future.Jonathan said:
This country suffers from an excess of nostalgia, not modernity.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. rkrkrk, willing the destruction of history and historical artefacts is unwise.
Mr. Jonathan, modernity and progress are not the same thing. Someone living in Rome during Vespasian's reign would not be delighted with the situation two, or four, centuries later.0 -
“He is not the modern face of the Tory party that we are desperate, or I am certainly and colleagues are certainly desperate, to prove is out there.”
Ms Allen is unable to mention a policy that JRM is in favour of that she disagrees with - she just doesn't want him as he's "posh".
Says more about her than him frankly.
0 -
Why? You can still have a deep understanding of something, and a perception of it, even if it's been said before. Otherwise there would be precious little room left to be insightful.Charles said:
No, but it does make him less insightful.JosiasJessop said:
So? Does that make it less correct?Charles said:
You realise he was just quoting the West Wing?Cyclefree said:HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
Lord Marbury : "The darkness in our sunshine, the shadow in our souls, the biblical sins of the fathers. For Americans, it's slavery. Slavery is your original sin. That and your unfortunate
history with your aborigines."
Toby : "Native Americans."
Lord Marbury : "For the English, it's Ireland."0 -
How is he wrong? Once we are out we are free to sign free trade deals. Giving that up as part of a transition is not ideal. We would in the transition have lost our ability to shape EU rules (limited as it was) without yet gaining our freedom we were seeking.TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.
If a transition deal is in the form of a time limited trade deal then that shouldn't prevent us from seeking and signing other permanent deals.0 -
BTW, did that poll showing a 3-point Tory lead get confirmed?0
-
You can usually judge a man by his friends. The fact that all the la-la Brexit zealots are in favour of Jacob Rees-Mogg certainly tells its own tale.0
-
Quite.TGOHF said:“He is not the modern face of the Tory party that we are desperate, or I am certainly and colleagues are certainly desperate, to prove is out there.”
Says more about her than him frankly.
That, and the fact that she thinks her say is of such value that a threat to flounce off will be met with anything but laughter.0 -
Why should it? Provided that they don't come into effect before the end of the transition period there will be no issue with negotiating and signing while in transition (that's one of the primary benefits of having such a period)TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.0 -
We can't still be in the EU (= a transition deal) and have an FTA with a third party country at the same time as this would give rise to regulatory arbitrage.Philip_Thompson said:
How is he wrong? Once we are out we are free to sign free trade deals. Giving that up as part of a transition is not ideal. We would in the transition have lost our ability to shape EU rules (limited as it was) without yet gaining our freedom we were seeking.TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.
If a transition deal is in the form of a time limited trade deal then that shouldn't prevent us from seeking and signing other permanent deals.0 -
But the reality is a transition deal will not take the form of still being in the EU, will it?TOPPING said:
We can't still be in the EU (= a transition deal) and have an FTA with a third party country at the same time as this would give rise to regulatory arbitrage.Philip_Thompson said:
How is he wrong? Once we are out we are free to sign free trade deals. Giving that up as part of a transition is not ideal. We would in the transition have lost our ability to shape EU rules (limited as it was) without yet gaining our freedom we were seeking.TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.
If a transition deal is in the form of a time limited trade deal then that shouldn't prevent us from seeking and signing other permanent deals.0 -
In this context @Cyclefree was praising him, and implying that he had come up with the phrase. I pointed out that he had just lifted it from a TV script.JosiasJessop said:
Why? You can still have a deep understanding of something, and a perception of it, even if it's been said before. Otherwise there would be precious little room left to be insightful.Charles said:
No, but it does make him less insightful.JosiasJessop said:
So? Does that make it less correct?Charles said:
You realise he was just quoting the West Wing?Cyclefree said:HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
Lord Marbury : "The darkness in our sunshine, the shadow in our souls, the biblical sins of the fathers. For Americans, it's slavery. Slavery is your original sin. That and your unfortunate
history with your aborigines."
Toby : "Native Americans."
Lord Marbury : "For the English, it's Ireland."
What he said was certainly arguable - and, I think, a useful concept to introduce to the debate.0 -
Great insight - top analysis.AlastairMeeks said:You can usually judge a man by his friends. The fact that all the la-la Brexit zealots are in favour of Jacob Rees-Mogg certainly tells its own tale.
0 -
Yes, because the Brexit loons of the Conservative party are keen for it to become a narrower and less inclusive party.Mortimer said:
Quite.TGOHF said:“He is not the modern face of the Tory party that we are desperate, or I am certainly and colleagues are certainly desperate, to prove is out there.”
Says more about her than him frankly.
That, and the fact that she thinks her say is of such value that a threat to flounce off will be met with anything but laughter.0 -
Fine. Give him the job.HYUFD said:
Boris leads the polls of next Tory potential leaders with all votersBeverley_C said:
To me, Boris comes across as a posh buffoon and JRM comes across as an other-worldly dilettante. I cannot envision either of them as capable leaders.HYUFD said:Rees-Mogg is more a potential Tory opposition leader than PM for me so I agree with him on that. I think the next Tory leader and PM will be either Boris or Davis but Davis could be tainted by compromises in the Brexit talks. However those who diss Rees-Mogg as too much of a maverick and too extreme should remember the same was said of Corbyn
Still, I am not a Tory Party member, so I guess if the Tories think one of these two is the way forward then elect one of them leader and see what the voters think.
He is not exactly being measured against a field of sparkling talent.0 -
see my response before your post.TOPPING said:
We can't still be in the EU (= a transition deal) and have an FTA with a third party country at the same time as this would give rise to regulatory arbitrage.Philip_Thompson said:
How is he wrong? Once we are out we are free to sign free trade deals. Giving that up as part of a transition is not ideal. We would in the transition have lost our ability to shape EU rules (limited as it was) without yet gaining our freedom we were seeking.TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.
If a transition deal is in the form of a time limited trade deal then that shouldn't prevent us from seeking and signing other permanent deals.0 -
Then so does the Remainer zealots continued support for the words of Blair and Osborne...AlastairMeeks said:You can usually judge a man by his friends. The fact that all the la-la Brexit zealots are in favour of Jacob Rees-Mogg certainly tells its own tale.
0 -
Presumably it would be easy and fine to sign trade deals which come into effect once the transition period has ended.Philip_Thompson said:
How is he wrong? Once we are out we are free to sign free trade deals. Giving that up as part of a transition is not ideal. We would in the transition have lost our ability to shape EU rules (limited as it was) without yet gaining our freedom we were seeking.TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.
If a transition deal is in the form of a time limited trade deal then that shouldn't prevent us from seeking and signing other permanent deals.
But trade deals coming into effect before that period would need to be compliant with our arrangements with the EU. I suppose that's possible in the cases where the EU has already negotiated something with that country.0 -
Ah yes well of course. Provided they don't come into effect until after the transition period. I think that's fair to be able to negotiate. Not 100% sure that was what he was stating, though.Charles said:
Why should it? Provided that they don't come into effect before the end of the transition period there will be no issue with negotiating and signing while in transition (that's one of the primary benefits of having such a period)TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.0 -
A reality check: The Moggster does NOT stand a good chance if he gets into the final two. In fact, he would stand very little chance against almost any other possible candidate.0
-
Of course it will. We will still be bound by all the contractual demands that exist now. That, surely, is the nature of a transition deal. No cliff edge. All things as is.Mortimer said:
But the reality is a transition deal will not take the form of still being in the EU, will it?TOPPING said:
We can't still be in the EU (= a transition deal) and have an FTA with a third party country at the same time as this would give rise to regulatory arbitrage.Philip_Thompson said:
How is he wrong? Once we are out we are free to sign free trade deals. Giving that up as part of a transition is not ideal. We would in the transition have lost our ability to shape EU rules (limited as it was) without yet gaining our freedom we were seeking.TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.
If a transition deal is in the form of a time limited trade deal then that shouldn't prevent us from seeking and signing other permanent deals.0 -
Did she imply that? She just said that he had said it. Neither does the fact that it was said before mean that he has a lack of insight.Charles said:
In this context @Cyclefree was praising him, and implying that he had come up with the phrase. I pointed out that he had just lifted it from a TV script.JosiasJessop said:
Why? You can still have a deep understanding of something, and a perception of it, even if it's been said before. Otherwise there would be precious little room left to be insightful.Charles said:
No, but it does make him less insightful.JosiasJessop said:
So? Does that make it less correct?Charles said:
You realise he was just quoting the West Wing?Cyclefree said:HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
Lord Marbury : "The darkness in our sunshine, the shadow in our souls, the biblical sins of the fathers. For Americans, it's slavery. Slavery is your original sin. That and your unfortunate
history with your aborigines."
Toby : "Native Americans."
Lord Marbury : "For the English, it's Ireland."
What he said was certainly arguable - and, I think, a useful concept to introduce to the debate.
(And before anyone says, I'm not an Obama fan).0 -
Evidence ?JosiasJessop said:
Yes, because the Brexit loons of the Conservative party are keen for it to become a narrower and less inclusive party.Mortimer said:
Quite.TGOHF said:“He is not the modern face of the Tory party that we are desperate, or I am certainly and colleagues are certainly desperate, to prove is out there.”
Says more about her than him frankly.
That, and the fact that she thinks her say is of such value that a threat to flounce off will be met with anything but laughter.
We've had Soubry and Allen threaten to flounce out over the weekend if things don't go their way - suggests the tiny Europhile rump are the ones with a problem.
0 -
Threats of flouncing are meaningless.JosiasJessop said:
Yes, because the Brexit loons of the Conservative party are keen for it to become a narrower and less inclusive party.Mortimer said:
Quite.TGOHF said:“He is not the modern face of the Tory party that we are desperate, or I am certainly and colleagues are certainly desperate, to prove is out there.”
Says more about her than him frankly.
That, and the fact that she thinks her say is of such value that a threat to flounce off will be met with anything but laughter.
Actually flouncing means more - but threats are rarely followed through by minor politicians.0 -
Disagree entirely.Richard_Nabavi said:A reality check: The Moggster does NOT stand a good chance if he gets into the final two. In fact, he would stand very little chance against almost any other possible candidate.
c/f Cameron
Though, the reality is the chances of there being a member wide election whilst in Govt. are slim.0 -
Why would we still be in the EU?TOPPING said:
Of course it will. We will still be bound by all the contractual demands that exist now. That, surely, is the nature of a transition deal. No cliff edge. All things as is.Mortimer said:
But the reality is a transition deal will not take the form of still being in the EU, will it?TOPPING said:
We can't still be in the EU (= a transition deal) and have an FTA with a third party country at the same time as this would give rise to regulatory arbitrage.Philip_Thompson said:
How is he wrong? Once we are out we are free to sign free trade deals. Giving that up as part of a transition is not ideal. We would in the transition have lost our ability to shape EU rules (limited as it was) without yet gaining our freedom we were seeking.TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.
If a transition deal is in the form of a time limited trade deal then that shouldn't prevent us from seeking and signing other permanent deals.
The "transition" part of the word "transition" is gone if there's no transitioning going on.0 -
Review of Alex Salmond's Fringe show in The Times. Feel a bit sick. pic.twitter.com/5z1gMUQq6x
— Kevin Schofield (@PolhomeEditor) August 14, 2017
0 -
A good question - it was in the Indy.NickPalmer said:BTW, did that poll showing a 3-point Tory lead get confirmed?
But I suppose that doesn't actually carry much weight any more....0 -
LOL. And who pi**ed off before the referendum? The Euroloons to UKIP. They actually flounced and have seriously damaged the party.TGOHF said:
Evidence ?JosiasJessop said:
Yes, because the Brexit loons of the Conservative party are keen for it to become a narrower and less inclusive party.Mortimer said:
Quite.TGOHF said:“He is not the modern face of the Tory party that we are desperate, or I am certainly and colleagues are certainly desperate, to prove is out there.”
Says more about her than him frankly.
That, and the fact that she thinks her say is of such value that a threat to flounce off will be met with anything but laughter.
We've had Soubry and Allen threaten to flounce out over the weekend if things don't go their way - suggests the tiny Europhile rump are the ones with a problem.
A healthy Conservative party, just a like a healthy Labour party, needs to appeal to as broad a constituency as possible.0 -
Perhaps, but Bernie's a natural talent.TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.0 -
On that basis, perhaps if we recalled that a KKK Grand Wizard came out in favour of Trump ....AlastairMeeks said:You can usually judge a man by his friends. The fact that all the la-la Brexit zealots are in favour of Jacob Rees-Mogg certainly tells its own tale.
0 -
If Soubry and Allen want to follow the career path of Carswell and Mark Reckless then er..JosiasJessop said:
LOL. And who pi**ed off before the referendum? The Euroloons to UKIP. They actually flounced and have seriously damaged the party.TGOHF said:
Evidence ?JosiasJessop said:
Yes, because the Brexit loons of the Conservative party are keen for it to become a narrower and less inclusive party.Mortimer said:
Quite.TGOHF said:“He is not the modern face of the Tory party that we are desperate, or I am certainly and colleagues are certainly desperate, to prove is out there.”
Says more about her than him frankly.
That, and the fact that she thinks her say is of such value that a threat to flounce off will be met with anything but laughter.
We've had Soubry and Allen threaten to flounce out over the weekend if things don't go their way - suggests the tiny Europhile rump are the ones with a problem.
A healthy Conservative party, just a like a healthy Labour party, needs to appeal to as broad a constituency as possible.0 -
Probably just me but Rees-Mogg's oratorical style is eerily reminiscent of Tony Benn's.0
-
And the most recent KKK member of the Senate was a Democrat.Beverley_C said:
On that basis, perhaps if we recalled that a KKK Grand Wizard came out in favour of Trump ....AlastairMeeks said:You can usually judge a man by his friends. The fact that all the la-la Brexit zealots are in favour of Jacob Rees-Mogg certainly tells its own tale.
This is a game that can be played all day to no value,0 -
Eh?JosiasJessop said:
LOL. And who pi**ed off before the referendum? The Euroloons to UKIP. They actually flounced and have seriously damaged the party.TGOHF said:
Evidence ?JosiasJessop said:
Yes, because the Brexit loons of the Conservative party are keen for it to become a narrower and less inclusive party.Mortimer said:
Quite.TGOHF said:“He is not the modern face of the Tory party that we are desperate, or I am certainly and colleagues are certainly desperate, to prove is out there.”
Says more about her than him frankly.
That, and the fact that she thinks her say is of such value that a threat to flounce off will be met with anything but laughter.
We've had Soubry and Allen threaten to flounce out over the weekend if things don't go their way - suggests the tiny Europhile rump are the ones with a problem.
A healthy Conservative party, just a like a healthy Labour party, needs to appeal to as broad a constituency as possible.
UKIP have no MPs. They forced a democratic decision that resulted in the Tory vote share returning to mid 40s. How has that seriously damaged the party?0 -
Errr, Slavery being referred to as America's Original Sin predates the West Wing.Charles said:
In this context @Cyclefree was praising him, and implying that he had come up with the phrase. I pointed out that he had just lifted it from a TV script.JosiasJessop said:
Why? You can still have a deep understanding of something, and a perception of it, even if it's been said before. Otherwise there would be precious little room left to be insightful.Charles said:
No, but it does make him less insightful.JosiasJessop said:
So? Does that make it less correct?Charles said:
You realise he was just quoting the West Wing?Cyclefree said:HYUFD said:
I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anywayydoethur said:
He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.Alistair said:
Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.
This is really simple.
I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.
Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
Lord Marbury : "The darkness in our sunshine, the shadow in our souls, the biblical sins of the fathers. For Americans, it's slavery. Slavery is your original sin. That and your unfortunate
history with your aborigines."
Toby : "Native Americans."
Lord Marbury : "For the English, it's Ireland."
What he said was certainly arguable - and, I think, a useful concept to introduce to the debate.0 -
That 'flouncing' helped get us a referendum - which has produced a fantastic result for the country.JosiasJessop said:
LOL. And who pi**ed off before the referendum? The Euroloons to UKIP. They actually flounced and have seriously damaged the party.TGOHF said:
Evidence ?JosiasJessop said:
Yes, because the Brexit loons of the Conservative party are keen for it to become a narrower and less inclusive party.Mortimer said:
Quite.TGOHF said:“He is not the modern face of the Tory party that we are desperate, or I am certainly and colleagues are certainly desperate, to prove is out there.”
Says more about her than him frankly.
That, and the fact that she thinks her say is of such value that a threat to flounce off will be met with anything but laughter.
We've had Soubry and Allen threaten to flounce out over the weekend if things don't go their way - suggests the tiny Europhile rump are the ones with a problem.
A healthy Conservative party, just a like a healthy Labour party, needs to appeal to as broad a constituency as possible.
...and yet you mutter about "seriously damaged the party".
Priorities.0 -
What do you imagine a transition deal will look like? A have cake and eat it transition? It means that we will continue to benefit from EU membership and be bound by the EU rules. Or it is not a transition. It is a leaving.GeoffM said:
Why would we still be in the EU?TOPPING said:
Of course it will. We will still be bound by all the contractual demands that exist now. That, surely, is the nature of a transition deal. No cliff edge. All things as is.Mortimer said:
But the reality is a transition deal will not take the form of still being in the EU, will it?TOPPING said:
We can't still be in the EU (= a transition deal) and have an FTA with a third party country at the same time as this would give rise to regulatory arbitrage.Philip_Thompson said:
How is he wrong? Once we are out we are free to sign free trade deals. Giving that up as part of a transition is not ideal. We would in the transition have lost our ability to shape EU rules (limited as it was) without yet gaining our freedom we were seeking.TOPPING said:
Bernard Jenkin this morning saying that a transition deal should not inhibit the UK from signing free trade deals. What is it with some Brexiters? Is there a course they go on to learn how to be morons?rkrkrk said:
True.ThreeQuidder said:
That depends when the next leadership election is. If it's not until after we have Left the EU, then the distinction will become irrelevant.rkrkrk said:
Presumably the Brexiteers will want to ensure they have one of their number in the final two.AlastairMeeks said:
He needs to get into the last two before he could conceivably become leader. That means he needs support in Parliament too.GIN1138 said:
Sounds like Jacob will get the Jezza treatment from the CPP if he becomes leader!AlastairMeeks said:
If there's a transition deal in 2019 then I expect the next leadership election will be before that has expired.
If a transition deal is in the form of a time limited trade deal then that shouldn't prevent us from seeking and signing other permanent deals.
The "transition" part of the word "transition" is gone if there's no transitioning going on.0 -
This is a membership that elected IDS... Surely anything is possible?Richard_Nabavi said:A reality check: The Moggster does NOT stand a good chance if he gets into the final two. In fact, he would stand very little chance against almost any other possible candidate.
0 -
Precisely - c/f Cameron. You have hit the nail on the head.Mortimer said:
Disagree entirely.Richard_Nabavi said:A reality check: The Moggster does NOT stand a good chance if he gets into the final two. In fact, he would stand very little chance against almost any other possible candidate.
c/f Cameron
Though, the reality is the chances of there being a member wide election whilst in Govt. are slim.
Also, I think there will be a full member-wide election this time. I think the most likely scenario is Theresa May bowing out with grace in 2019, having delivered Brexit (in nominal terms at least). She'll probably remain as caretaker leader and PM whilst we have the leadership contest.0
This discussion has been closed.