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SystemSystem Posts: 12,687
edited November 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » At GE2010 incumbent CON incumbents performed better than their party by an average 0.3 pc

The above data is from a post-GE2010 analysis by Prof John Curtice, Dr Stephen Fisher and Dr Rob Ford and shows how CON incumbents did compared to the overall increase in the party’s GB vote share.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    Chuckle. Poor Tory Dan, what have you gone and doned...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,896
    Bloody curse of the new thread. FPT:

    Betting Post

    Backed France against the South Africans at 3.55 with Betfair. Whilst South Africa are probably favourites, the French are unpredictable. Their margin of defeat to the All Blacks was just 7 points, so if they can run the Kiwis that close then they stand a realistic chance of beating the Springboks (Ladbrokes has them at 2.88).

    I've also backed the Australians to beat the Scots by over 12 points with Ladbrokes, at 1.91.
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    My guess is also that there is no such poll, and Dan has been played like a fiddle by one of his Tory chums, who know fine well he'll scuttle off and do their spinning for them like a good little pooch.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Oh the irony of Phil 'Us Blues' Roberts, parroting tim's lines...
  • isamisam Posts: 42,651
    Regarding the tube running all night at weekends, ticket offices being shut down and the staff being made to patrol the station concourse instead, I would support the staff and union if they decided to kick up a fuss... The staff will go from working until 11pm behind a secure window to being out in the open in some of the roughest parts of London late at / in the middle of the night dealing with drunks, and general ne'er do wells, with their other option being probable redundancy.

    Filth Say I!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,544
    tim said:

    Hodges claims incumbency with named MP = an additional 8% swing over the Aschcroft figures
    I'll have a charity bet with anyone who wants one that there is no poll.

    Certainly no poll worth bothering about.

    A boost of 1.8% for first time incumbents is certainly not to be sneezed at. Also noteable is the way that the way the Labour vote fell away very sharply in seats where it came second to the Tories in 2005, in part, no doubt, due to the disappearance of the personal vote that defeated Labour MPs enjoyed in 2005.
  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Maybe the polling Hodges refers to was re-run when the general polls were a lot tighter. Ashcroft's marginals poll was done throughout August when nationally Labour we ahead by 10pc in the Ipsos Mori poll, but Ashcroft didn't report until mid-September when the gap was down to 3 and then zero in October.

    Or it could be in someone's imagination.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    edited November 2013
    Ashcroft is, to put it mildly, sceptical of the "poll":

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2013/11/if-the-tories-are-returning-to-comfort-polling-its-a-bad-sign
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    I believe Tim noticed a few years back this in his whatever Cameron does is a mistake default mode in that he argued (when Cameron was going to change the seat numbers and boundaries) that Cameron was a fool as he would lose the incumbency effect. Of course as soon as the lib dems vetoed the seat changes Tim said Cameron was a fool for not getting through seat changes that would help the tories
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,129
    Time to see how good the Press Complaints commission is at it's job ;)
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    OT I fear to bring up matters Scotch, but it is increasingly clear that HMG have done a pretty grubby deal with the Welsh Government over their response to the Silk Commission and the Scottish Referendum, witness the First Minister's time north of the Border. It is probable that pressure will now be put on the Attorney General to withdraw his reference in relation to the Agricultural Sector (Wales) Bill.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    The first-time incumbency effect is remarkably big, or at least it was in 2010. The full quote from the Curtice, Fisher & Ford paper is as follows:

    The party's vote only rose on average by 2.9 points in Conservative held seats that were not being defended by an incumbent, compared with 4.1 points where the incumbent MP was still in place. In contrast, incumbent Conservative MPs who first won their seats in 2005 - and who thus will have had the opportunity over the previous five years to acquire a personal vote for the first time - saw their vote increase on average by 5.6 points, while those who had been in the Commons longer only enjoyed an average increase of 3.8 points

    Given that the vast majority of Labour's 2015 target seats are held by first-time incumbents, if this effect applies in 2015 then the net result is to make a hung parliament (possibly with Con Most Seats) slightly more likely, because not only will it be harder for Labour to regain the ground lost in 2010, it will also be harder for the Tories to gain the additional seats they need to get a majority. It's a sort of ratchet or hysteresis effect which increases the probability of the seat distribution not changing very much.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Life_ina_market_town said:

    OT I fear to bring up matters Scotch, but it is increasingly clear that HMG have done a pretty grubby deal with the Welsh Government over their response to the Silk Commission and the Scottish Referendum, witness the First Minister's time north of the Border. It is probable that pressure will now be put on the Attorney General to withdraw his reference in relation to the Agricultural Sector (Wales) Bill.

    Why do you want to bring up matters relating to whisky which is what Scotch is. If you mean the people of Scotland, we are Scots not Scotch.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    isam said:

    Regarding the tube running all night at weekends, ticket offices being shut down and the staff being made to patrol the station concourse instead, I would support the staff and union if they decided to kick up a fuss... The staff will go from working until 11pm behind a secure window to being out in the open in some of the roughest parts of London late at / in the middle of the night dealing with drunks, and general ne'er do wells, with their other option being probable redundancy.

    Filth Say I!

    So you are saying that staff should not be put in the same situation as its customers because London is a dangerous place?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    RichardNabavi said:

    The first-time incumbency effect is remarkably big, or at least it was in 2010. The full quote from the Curtice, Fisher & Ford paper is as follows:

    The party's vote only rose on average by 2.9 points in Conservative held seats that were not being defended by an incumbent, compared with 4.1 points where the incumbent MP was still in place. In contrast, incumbent Conservative MPs who first won their seats in 2005 - and who thus will have had the opportunity over the previous five years to acquire a personal vote for the first time - saw their vote increase on average by 5.6 points, while those who had been in the Commons longer only enjoyed an average increase of 3.8 points

    Given that the vast majority of Labour's 2015 target seats are held by first-time incumbents, if this effect applies in 2015 then the net result is to make a hung parliament (possibly with Con Most Seats) slightly more likely, because not only will it be harder for Labour to regain the ground lost in 2010, it will also be harder for the Tories to gain the additional seats they need to get a majority. It's a sort of ratchet or hysteresis effect which increases the probability of the seat distribution not changing very much.

    The incumbency effect is not that healthy in a democracy imo. Its hard to stop it as a MP naturally gets more publicity over a five year term than any challenger but everything possible should be done to minimise it. In previous governments it seemed everything possible was done to maximise it what with 'communications allowances' etc
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    For those of you relying on PB posters for their economic news:

    http://www.financialreporter.co.uk/view.asp?ID=14130

    Help to Buy sparks post-crash homebuilding record

    Figures released today by CLG show how the Government’s Help to Buy Equity Loan scheme is driving new home building activity. There were 28,580 new homes started by private house builders in England in the July, August and September quarter this year – up 29% on the same period last year. It is the highest number of new homes started in a quarter since Q1 2008.

    The figures show confidence is returning to the house building industry aided by the launch of the Help to Buy Equity Loan scheme in April. The biggest constraint on supply since 2008 has been people’s inability to buy. The Equity Loan scheme is delivering around 2,500 new home reservations a month enabling builders to ramp up production on site. Since April it has resulted in over 18000 reservations, mostly to First-Time Buyers.

    Builders are building out existing sites more quickly and looking to start on new sites sooner.

    Speaking today, Stewart Baseley, Executive Chairman of the HBF, said:

    “Help to Buy is increasing demand for new homes and the industry is responding. People’s inability to buy in recent years has been the biggest constraint on the industry’s efforts to build more homes. If people can buy, builders will build. Help to Buy is allowing people who can afford to buy a home to do so, meaning builders can get on with building the homes the country needs.”

    “As a result of this increase in activity, the industry is recruiting significant amounts of people. The supply chain is also gearing up to meet the increased level of demand, generating an economic boost the length and breadth of the country”

    Jeff Fairburn, Chief Executive of Persimmon said:

    “The Equity Loan element of Help to Buy is already having a meaningful impact on the housing market, by addressing the issues of restricted mortgage availability and large deposits that were preventing many potential homeowners from buying a home of their own. To increase volume to meet this increased demand, we are stepping up our investment in land and construction, opening 85 new sites before the end of the year and developing on all sites where we have implementable planning consents, creating many new jobs in the process.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T:

    Interesting/useless fact:

    Apple's design genius Jonathan Ive attended Walton High School in Stafford:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ive

    They ought to put up a blue plaque in the town one day.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited November 2013
    state_go_away said:

    The incumbency effect is not that healthy in a democracy imo. Its hard to stop it as a MP naturally gets more publicity over a five year term than any challenger but everything possible should be done to minimise it. In previous governments it seemed everything possible was done to maximise it what with 'communications allowances' etc

    I don't know that it's particularly unhealthy; if constituents are happy with their new MP (perhaps especially if they are pleasantly surprised by him or her), then fair enough. I agree that if it is based on an unfair advantage from the 'communications allowance' then that is a bad thing.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    The wrong question is being asked. The important swing is that for first-time incumbents in seats that were gained from another party in 2005. MPs who inherited their seat from a member of their own party who stood down shouldn't be included.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    isam said:

    Regarding the tube running all night at weekends, ticket offices being shut down and the staff being made to patrol the station concourse instead, I would support the staff and union if they decided to kick up a fuss... The staff will go from working until 11pm behind a secure window to being out in the open in some of the roughest parts of London late at / in the middle of the night dealing with drunks, and general ne'er do wells, with their other option being probable redundancy.

    Filth Say I!

    I think that's completely ridiculous. If members of the public are expected to be able to walk around the station concourse why shouldn't the staff. This isn't a bank where the staff members are behind a secure location as they need to be because they have access to lots of cash. If the stations are too dangerous for staff then why aren't they too dangerous for the public too? And how will the public be safer by making sure there's no staff there?

    There is absolutely no reason nowadays why we need staffed ticket offices rather than automated machines and on the station concourse is where they're needed - if people aren't willing to do that then absolutely they're redundant. Machines have replaced ticket sales a long time ago.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    The fact that incumbents performed slightly better isn't surprising when you consider that the Tories did badly in places where they're weak such as Scotland and Merseyside, where naturally there aren't many Tory incumbents to start off with.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    Sean_F said:

    tim said:

    Hodges claims incumbency with named MP = an additional 8% swing over the Aschcroft figures
    I'll have a charity bet with anyone who wants one that there is no poll.

    Certainly no poll worth bothering about.

    A boost of 1.8% for first time incumbents is certainly not to be sneezed at. Also noteable is the way that the way the Labour vote fell away very sharply in seats where it came second to the Tories in 2005, in part, no doubt, due to the disappearance of the personal vote that defeated Labour MPs enjoyed in 2005.
    In part. Another, possibly larger part, is that Labour stopped targetting those seats for 2010. They knew they were on the defensive and pulled resources from those they spent heavily in in 2005, in favour of seats further down the list. When I was in Shipley, Labour spent very heavily in 2005 trying - and just failing - to keep Chris Leslie in place. What activity there was during the next five years was, as far as I know, locally-funded with no national support. The party nationally had other fish to fry.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited November 2013
    @Scrapheap

    That's good news re: Help to Buy.

    Notwithstanding the potential negative medium-term effects of HtB, it is good to see that the government can pull a lever and have a visibly positive effect on the economy. A bit like when Darling reduced VAT in 2008. I didn't think reducing VAT would be that big a deal, but it really did make a huge difference.

    There must be other areas where the government can create a positive effect. And if there are, and the risk is minimal, then I hope they will do it.

    I'm not statist by any means but during hard times the political class could it earn itself some brownie points by directly helping people who have hitherto struggled.

    Trying to buy a first-time home for a young Londoner must be miserable, frightening, life-sapping, cruel experience. Any help they can get is very welcome.

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    RichardNabavi said:

    state_go_away said:

    The incumbency effect is not that healthy in a democracy imo. Its hard to stop it as a MP naturally gets more publicity over a five year term than any challenger but everything possible should be done to minimise it. In previous governments it seemed everything possible was done to maximise it what with 'communications allowances' etc

    I don't know that it's particularly unhealthy; if constituents are happy with their new MP (perhaps especially if they are pleasantly surprised by him or her), then fair enough. I agree that if it is based on an unfair advantage from the 'communications allowance' then that is a bad thing.
    yes but only the MP gets the chance to pleasantly surprise his voters unlike a challenger. When MPs viewed themselves as more of a parliamentary representative rather than a social worker then the incumbency effect was less. I don't think its healthy to have this imbalance of publicity. Its not easy to stop I agree but if anything, in modern times, there seems to be a will to make It more of an effect not less
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    So far 223 incumbent MPs (34.3% of the total) have either announced their retirement or been reselected. The current breakdown is 191 (85.7%) reselected, 32 (14.3%) retiring:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dFkzTjFrRmJRN3F6ODBTTEs4NGFhcUE&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=730
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    The majority of 1st time Con incumbents will - I suppose - have won their seats from Labour in 2005. Therefore the constituencies concerned will be marginal and so they will share certain demographic similarities. Has this data been compared to non-Tory seats with similar demographics? How do we know that first-timeTory incumbency, and not demographics (or something else), is the causative factor here?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    Yes, the best thing would be to require everyone to buy some kind of oyster card before they use the London transport system, even if they're only planning to stay in London for a short time.

    Maybe smartphones and/or tablets could act as virtual oyster cards?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,132
    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them) will just block up the gates instead, trying to get help?

    Did you see the link I posted a couple of weeks ago about Oystercard?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    AndyJS said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    Yes, the best thing would be to require everyone to buy some kind of oyster card before they use the London transport system, even if they're only planning to stay in London for a short time.
    Or sell Oyster cards from newsagents/tobacconists as they do with similar schemes in other countries.

  • isamisam Posts: 42,651
    state_go_away said:

    isam said:

    Regarding the tube running all night at weekends, ticket offices being shut down and the staff being made to patrol the station concourse instead, I would support the staff and union if they decided to kick up a fuss... The staff will go from working until 11pm behind a secure window to being out in the open in some of the roughest parts of London late at / in the middle of the night dealing with drunks, and general ne'er do wells, with their other option being probable redundancy.

    Filth Say I!

    So you are saying that staff should not be put in the same situation as its customers because London is a dangerous place?
    The customers don't have to hang around for hours on end in a desolate tube station that is a haven for tramps, druggies, alcoholics etc in a uniform that singles them out for abuse, o I don't see it as the same situation.

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    AndyJS said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    Yes, the best thing would be to require everyone to buy some kind of oyster card before they use the London transport system, even if they're only planning to stay in London for a short time.
    You know LU are doing something right if Bob Crow is threatening to strike about it
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I refuse to use an Oyster card because I do not wish my personal movements to be tracked by anyone. We've seen enough misuse of data already.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    anothernick said:

    The majority of 1st time Con incumbents will - I suppose - have won their seats from Labour in 2005. Therefore the constituencies concerned will be marginal and so they will share certain demographic similarities. Has this data been compared to non-Tory seats with similar demographics? How do we know that first-timeTory incumbency, and not demographics (or something else), is the causative factor here?

    You compare them with, say, how the Tories performed in their first fifty target seats in 2010? Those as a whole should have similar demographics to the 50ish that were gained in 2005 (they would be by definition marginally less 'Conservative', but were talking about bordering triskadekaciles near the middle of the set).
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    isam said:

    state_go_away said:

    isam said:

    Regarding the tube running all night at weekends, ticket offices being shut down and the staff being made to patrol the station concourse instead, I would support the staff and union if they decided to kick up a fuss... The staff will go from working until 11pm behind a secure window to being out in the open in some of the roughest parts of London late at / in the middle of the night dealing with drunks, and general ne'er do wells, with their other option being probable redundancy.

    Filth Say I!

    So you are saying that staff should not be put in the same situation as its customers because London is a dangerous place?
    The customers don't have to hang around for hours on end in a desolate tube station that is a haven for tramps, druggies, alcoholics etc in a uniform that singles them out for abuse, o I don't see it as the same situation.

    Well the station will be even more desolute if staff are to frightened to go onto the concourse.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    antifrank said:

    I refuse to use an Oyster card because I do not wish my personal movements to be tracked by anyone. We've seen enough misuse of data already.

    But isn't the entire tube network festooned with thousands of security cameras? They can track everything using that method.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,651
    Philip_Thompson said:

    isam said:

    Regarding the tube running all night at weekends, ticket offices being shut down and the staff being made to patrol the station concourse instead, I would support the staff and union if they decided to kick up a fuss... The staff will go from working until 11pm behind a secure window to being out in the open in some of the roughest parts of London late at / in the middle of the night dealing with drunks, and general ne'er do wells, with their other option being probable redundancy.

    Filth Say I!

    I think that's completely ridiculous. If members of the public are expected to be able to walk around the station concourse why shouldn't the staff. This isn't a bank where the staff members are behind a secure location as they need to be because they have access to lots of cash. If the stations are too dangerous for staff then why aren't they too dangerous for the public too? And how will the public be safer by making sure there's no staff there?

    There is absolutely no reason nowadays why we need staffed ticket offices rather than automated machines and on the station concourse is where they're needed - if people aren't willing to do that then absolutely they're redundant. Machines have replaced ticket sales a long time ago.
    There is a big difference in danger between walking through a tube station late at night as a passenger and standing around "helping" people to use the machines in LT Uniform I would have thought.

    Tube concourses are deemed dangerous enough for Classical music to be played in order to make them more peaceful environments (Elm Park is an example of this).The ticket office workers will become kind of bouncers for the station, which is a dangerous job in some parts of London at any time of day let alone midnight on Saturday.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited November 2013
    state_go_away said:

    isam said:

    state_go_away said:

    isam said:

    Regarding the tube running all night at weekends, ticket offices being shut down and the staff being made to patrol the station concourse instead, I would support the staff and union if they decided to kick up a fuss... The staff will go from working until 11pm behind a secure window to being out in the open in some of the roughest parts of London late at / in the middle of the night dealing with drunks, and general ne'er do wells, with their other option being probable redundancy.

    Filth Say I!

    So you are saying that staff should not be put in the same situation as its customers because London is a dangerous place?
    The customers don't have to hang around for hours on end in a desolate tube station that is a haven for tramps, druggies, alcoholics etc in a uniform that singles them out for abuse, o I don't see it as the same situation.

    Well the station will be even more desolute if staff are to frightened to go onto the concourse.
    Why are they frightened to leave their offices? Aren't we continually told by the BCS that crimes, particularly those involving violence has fallen?
  • isamisam Posts: 42,651
    CarlottaVance said:

    AndyJS said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    Yes, the best thing would be to require everyone to buy some kind of oyster card before they use the London transport system, even if they're only planning to stay in London for a short time.
    Or sell Oyster cards from newsagents/tobacconists as they do with similar schemes in other countries.

    Newsagents already sell them don't they?

    Well mine does anyway
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    isam said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    isam said:

    Regarding the tube running all night at weekends, ticket offices being shut down and the staff being made to patrol the station concourse instead, I would support the staff and union if they decided to kick up a fuss... The staff will go from working until 11pm behind a secure window to being out in the open in some of the roughest parts of London late at / in the middle of the night dealing with drunks, and general ne'er do wells, with their other option being probable redundancy.

    Filth Say I!

    I think that's completely ridiculous. If members of the public are expected to be able to walk around the station concourse why shouldn't the staff. This isn't a bank where the staff members are behind a secure location as they need to be because they have access to lots of cash. If the stations are too dangerous for staff then why aren't they too dangerous for the public too? And how will the public be safer by making sure there's no staff there?

    There is absolutely no reason nowadays why we need staffed ticket offices rather than automated machines and on the station concourse is where they're needed - if people aren't willing to do that then absolutely they're redundant. Machines have replaced ticket sales a long time ago.
    There is a big difference in danger between walking through a tube station late at night as a passenger and standing around "helping" people to use the machines in LT Uniform I would have thought.

    Tube concourses are deemed dangerous enough for Classical music to be played in order to make them more peaceful environments (Elm Park is an example of this).The ticket office workers will become kind of bouncers for the station, which is a dangerous job in some parts of London at any time of day let alone midnight on Saturday.
    Classical music is played to make them less stressful environments for commuters not less dangerous places. Classical music has never put off a mugger or murderer imo in fact in Morse or Midsommer Murders it is often played when a murder happens!!
    What would increase stress in commuters would be to find themselves in a station where the staff hide behind locked doors

  • isamisam Posts: 42,651
    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    The tourists will just block up the ticket machines instead of the office, so whats the difference?
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    AndyJS said:

    But isn't the entire tube network festooned with thousands of security cameras? They can track everything using that method.

    You can get around that problem. The cameras tend not to work if you're in the process of shooting an unarmed electrician.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    isam said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    The tourists will just block up the ticket machines instead of the office, so whats the difference?
    Surely London can use its unique (in Britain anyway) selling point of being rude and surly to designate and split ticket machines for people who can load up a oyster card in under 30 seconds and have perhaps one which allows general old biddies/tourists and ditherers unlimited time to get a ticket!!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,129
    Sam's got a point here - it is very different working somewhere to being a customer. Hopefully the staff will have some way to (very) quickly alert police if there is any trouble (Radios or some such).
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    state_go_away said:

    isam said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    The tourists will just block up the ticket machines instead of the office, so whats the difference?
    Surely London can use its unique (in Britain anyway) selling point of being rude and surly to designate and split ticket machines for people who can load up a oyster card in under 30 seconds and have perhaps one which allows general old biddies/tourists and ditherers unlimited time to get a ticket!!
    I've always felt that planes should board in decreasing order of IQ.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    isam said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    AndyJS said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    Yes, the best thing would be to require everyone to buy some kind of oyster card before they use the London transport system, even if they're only planning to stay in London for a short time.
    Or sell Oyster cards from newsagents/tobacconists as they do with similar schemes in other countries.

    Newsagents already sell them don't they?

    Well mine does anyway
    So you can! I didn't know that (had mine for yonks on auto-top up) - but I agree there needs to be a way of de-crowding the station concourses - Victoria is particularly bad.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,706
    JosiasJessop said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them) will just block up the gates instead, trying to get help?

    Did you see the link I posted a couple of weeks ago about Oystercard?
    It would be helpful if Englih (at least) bus passes worked on the Underground as they do on the buses. I can come in from Essex for a day in the capital and travel anywhere on a bus, but only on the underground if I buy the approrpiate return train ticket. Yet my friend who lives in London uses her pass on both.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    People new to London have to get the Oyster Card in the first place.
    Do you know how much it costs to produce them? TFT charges £5 deposit for one.
    JosiasJessop said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them) will just block up the gates instead, trying to get help?

    Did you see the link I posted a couple of weeks ago about Oystercard?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    isam said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    The tourists will just block up the ticket machines instead of the office, so whats the difference?
    Why not make everyone use an Oyster Card? Buy it out of a machine (ready charged with £10, £20, £5 whatever), saves buying a ticket every time. The whole idea that we have to carry around a scrap of paper to board a train is ludicrous.

    Get rid.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    antifrank said:

    state_go_away said:

    isam said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    The tourists will just block up the ticket machines instead of the office, so whats the difference?
    Surely London can use its unique (in Britain anyway) selling point of being rude and surly to designate and split ticket machines for people who can load up a oyster card in under 30 seconds and have perhaps one which allows general old biddies/tourists and ditherers unlimited time to get a ticket!!
    I've always felt that planes should board in decreasing order of IQ.
    Ryanair now opening boarding for Nobel Prize winners , egghead contestants and Tim . Please have your boarding passes and a copy of Stephen Hawking's a Brief History of time ready for inspection.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    There are no compulsory redundancies planned for LU.

    But - workers who retire will not be replaced - hence a drop in the number of union subs.

    Any action by Bob Crow is about sustaining his luxury lifestyle rather than protecting his current members.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    antifrank said:

    I refuse to use an Oyster card because I do not wish my personal movements to be tracked by anyone. We've seen enough misuse of data already.

    So you buy a ticket every time? Bizarre. The cameras alone will track your movements.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    state_go_away said:

    antifrank said:

    state_go_away said:

    isam said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    The tourists will just block up the ticket machines instead of the office, so whats the difference?
    Surely London can use its unique (in Britain anyway) selling point of being rude and surly to designate and split ticket machines for people who can load up a oyster card in under 30 seconds and have perhaps one which allows general old biddies/tourists and ditherers unlimited time to get a ticket!!
    I've always felt that planes should board in decreasing order of IQ.
    Ryanair now opening boarding for Nobel Prize winners , egghead contestants and Tim . Please have your boarding passes and a copy of Stephen Hawking's a Brief History of time ready for inspection.
    "Tax guru" tim will be last on...

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    OldKingCole said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them) will just block up the gates instead, trying to get help?

    Did you see the link I posted a couple of weeks ago about Oystercard?
    It would be helpful if Englih (at least) bus passes worked on the Underground as they do on the buses. I can come in from Essex for a day in the capital and travel anywhere on a bus, but only on the underground if I buy the approrpiate return train ticket. Yet my friend who lives in London uses her pass on both.
    Agreed given that publc money is used to pay for both - it's just that the value of what London's senior citizens get is far more.

    London pensiioners should be treated in exactly the same way as those in the rest of England.

  • isamisam Posts: 42,651
    state_go_away said:

    isam said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    isam said:

    Regarding the tube running all night at weekends...

    I think that's completely ridiculous. If members of the public are expected to be able to walk around the station concourse why shouldn't the staff. This isn't a bank where the staff members are behind a secure location as they need to be because they have access to lots of cash. If the stations are too dangerous for staff then why aren't they too dangerous for the public too? And how will the public be safer by making sure there's no staff there?

    There is absolutely no reason nowadays why we need staffed ticket offices rather than automated machines and on the station concourse is where they're needed - if people aren't willing to do that then absolutely they're redundant. Machines have replaced ticket sales a long time ago.
    There is a big difference in danger between walking through a tube station late at night as a passenger and standing around "helping" people to use the machines in LT Uniform I would have thought.

    Tube concourses are deemed dangerous enough for Classical music to be played in order to make them more peaceful environments (Elm Park is an example of this).The ticket office workers will become kind of bouncers for the station, which is a dangerous job in some parts of London at any time of day let alone midnight on Saturday.
    Classical music is played to make them less stressful environments for commuters not less dangerous places. Classical music has never put off a mugger or murderer imo in fact in Morse or Midsommer Murders it is often played when a murder happens!!
    What would increase stress in commuters would be to find themselves in a station where the staff hide behind locked doors

    Not so Im afraid

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/mind-the-bach-classical-music-on-the-underground-800483.html

  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    david_herdson said:

    anothernick said:

    The majority of 1st time Con incumbents will - I suppose - have won their seats from Labour in 2005. Therefore the constituencies concerned will be marginal and so they will share certain demographic similarities. Has this data been compared to non-Tory seats with similar demographics? How do we know that first-timeTory incumbency, and not demographics (or something else), is the causative factor here?

    You compare them with, say, how the Tories performed in their first fifty target seats in 2010? Those as a whole should have similar demographics to the 50ish that were gained in 2005 (they would be by definition marginally less 'Conservative', but were talking about bordering triskadekaciles near the middle of the set).
    Hmm, yes, that would be a sound approach. Lot of number crunching though.

    FWIW my view is that there is a small incumbency "bonus" which applies to MPs of all parties, so next time the Tories will be the biggest beneficiaries as they have the most MPs. However, as you pointed out further down the thread, there are other factors at work and the data does not necessarily support the view that 1st time Tory incumbency is in itself the cause of the observed increase in Tory vote share. Next time it may be a negative, since Labour will be running stronger campaigns in seats won by the Tories in 2010.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    CarlottaVance said:

    AndyJS said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    Yes, the best thing would be to require everyone to buy some kind of oyster card before they use the London transport system, even if they're only planning to stay in London for a short time.
    Or sell Oyster cards from newsagents/tobacconists as they do with similar schemes in other countries.

    They already are. You can buy them everywhere, or order them online – hence the insane spectacle of tourists wasting what is presumably their valuable time thronging around ticket offices and getting in everyone's way.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,132
    old_labour said:

    People new to London have to get the Oyster Card in the first place.
    Do you know how much it costs to produce them? TFT charges £5 deposit for one.

    JosiasJessop said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them) will just block up the gates instead, trying to get help?

    Did you see the link I posted a couple of weeks ago about Oystercard?
    You don't need an Oyster if you're just visiting. Whenever I go to London, I just buy an old-fashioned travelcard from a machine and use that. Your point about the cost is good - it would be interesting to know the price-point where it becomes cheaper to use Oystercards only, rather than maintain the old tickets and the associated gate mechanisms.

    However: many railway tickets to London include tube travel. These are the old credit-card sized tickets, so gates would have to cope with that as well.

    Sadly, from what I've read the Oyster system is already struggling to cope with the most recent expansion, and using it for the railway tickets as well may be beyond it.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    IIRC, Boris introduced a free travel scheme for the over 60s in London. I cannot see any future mayoral candidate pledging to get rid of it.
    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/25830.aspx
    MikeSmithson said:

    OldKingCole said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them) will just block up the gates instead, trying to get help?

    Did you see the link I posted a couple of weeks ago about Oystercard?
    It would be helpful if Englih (at least) bus passes worked on the Underground as they do on the buses. I can come in from Essex for a day in the capital and travel anywhere on a bus, but only on the underground if I buy the approrpiate return train ticket. Yet my friend who lives in London uses her pass on both.
    Agreed given that publc money is used to pay for both - it's just that the value of what London's senior citizens get is far more.

    London pensiioners should be treated in exactly the same way as those in the rest of England.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Bobajob said:

    antifrank said:

    I refuse to use an Oyster card because I do not wish my personal movements to be tracked by anyone. We've seen enough misuse of data already.

    So you buy a ticket every time? Bizarre. The cameras alone will track your movements.
    But they won't have my movements cross-correlated with my name and won't be able to track them without conscious effort.

    Day travelcards are very convenient for me, on the relatively rare occasions I use public transport.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    JosiasJessop said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them)
    Pah. So would you be if you had to deal with them every day :)

    When in Rome, do as the Romans. Let them buy an Oyster Card – it's actually easier than working out a ticket as it does all the thinking for you, just tap and go. If they need help points, put them outside the stations not in the main concourse where they cause a bottleneck. Euston is a joke – you have to fight your way through half the time because of the madding crowds of out-of-towners.

    I should add that TFL are supposed to be introducing a system whereby you just tap your Visa card – that should help further.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    antifrank said:

    Bobajob said:

    antifrank said:

    I refuse to use an Oyster card because I do not wish my personal movements to be tracked by anyone. We've seen enough misuse of data already.

    So you buy a ticket every time? Bizarre. The cameras alone will track your movements.
    But they won't have my movements cross-correlated with my name and won't be able to track them without conscious effort.

    Day travelcards are very convenient for me, on the relatively rare occasions I use public transport.
    As you are such an infrequent user, you can afford to have that principle. Pretty sure you will soon have no choice though as I understand they are doing away with all paper tickets shortly and everything will be electronic/NFC.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2013
    Bobajob said:

    antifrank said:

    I refuse to use an Oyster card because I do not wish my personal movements to be tracked by anyone. We've seen enough misuse of data already.

    So you buy a ticket every time? Bizarre. The cameras alone will track your movements.
    Or if you must be paranoid, buy three from a vending machine with cash and use them randomly (if you're extra paranoid then bin after a month, rinse and repeat). Given the difference in Oyster/Non-Oyster pricing you'll still be quids in and The Man has no idea where you've been.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    old_labour said:

    IIRC, Boris introduced a free travel scheme for the over 60s in London. I cannot see any future mayoral candidate pledging to get rid of it.
    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/25830.aspx

    MikeSmithson said:

    OldKingCole said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them) will just block up the gates instead, trying to get help?

    Did you see the link I posted a couple of weeks ago about Oystercard?
    It would be helpful if Englih (at least) bus passes worked on the Underground as they do on the buses. I can come in from Essex for a day in the capital and travel anywhere on a bus, but only on the underground if I buy the approrpiate return train ticket. Yet my friend who lives in London uses her pass on both.
    Agreed given that publc money is used to pay for both - it's just that the value of what London's senior citizens get is far more.

    London pensiioners should be treated in exactly the same way as those in the rest of England.

    It amazes me how these blatant age discrimination giveaways get past age discrimination laws. The more brazen in your face concessions tend to be above discrimination for some reason
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    Bobajob said:

    Why not make everyone use an Oyster Card? Buy it out of a machine (ready charged with £10, £20, £5 whatever), saves buying a ticket every time. The whole idea that we have to carry around a scrap of paper to board a train is ludicrous.

    Get rid.

    I use an Oyster card out of convenience, but it should not be forgotten that one of the reasons Transport for London are so keen on promoting them is that in effect the system operates, in respect of pay as you go customers, as a giant system of interest-free loans to the government.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Anorak said:

    Bobajob said:

    antifrank said:

    I refuse to use an Oyster card because I do not wish my personal movements to be tracked by anyone. We've seen enough misuse of data already.

    So you buy a ticket every time? Bizarre. The cameras alone will track your movements.
    Or if you must be paranoid, buy three from a vending machine with cash and use them randomly (if you're extra paranoid then bin after a month, rinse and repeat). Given the difference in Oyster/Non-Oyster pricing you'll still be quids in and The Man has no idea where you've been.
    Anyone who thinks that concerns about use of data are paranoia clearly hasn't been reading the newspapers this year.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    Life_ina_market_town said:

    Bobajob said:

    Why not make everyone use an Oyster Card? Buy it out of a machine (ready charged with £10, £20, £5 whatever), saves buying a ticket every time. The whole idea that we have to carry around a scrap of paper to board a train is ludicrous.

    Get rid.

    I use an Oyster card out of convenience, but it should not be forgotten that one of the reasons Transport for London are so keen on promoting them is that in effect the system operates, in respect of pay as you go customers, as a giant system of interest-free loans to the government.
    Also people don't tend to notice the cost of travel as well
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2013
    antifrank said:

    Anorak said:

    Bobajob said:

    antifrank said:

    I refuse to use an Oyster card because I do not wish my personal movements to be tracked by anyone. We've seen enough misuse of data already.

    So you buy a ticket every time? Bizarre. The cameras alone will track your movements.
    Or if you must be paranoid, buy three from a vending machine with cash and use them randomly (if you're extra paranoid then bin after a month, rinse and repeat). Given the difference in Oyster/Non-Oyster pricing you'll still be quids in and The Man has no idea where you've been.
    Anyone who thinks that concerns about use of data are paranoia clearly hasn't been reading the newspapers this year.
    Your paranoia stems from the fact you think they give a monkeys about you and your travel. Unless there's something really interesting you're not telling us?

    [and if there's the occasional journey you really want to keep quiet about (visiting a lover, or the Iranian embassy), then an Oyster history on trips apart from that one is great camouflage]
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited November 2013
    Londoners who are under 16 travel for free as well plus there are discounts for those on JSA and students.
    state_go_away said:

    old_labour said:

    IIRC, Boris introduced a free travel scheme for the over 60s in London. I cannot see any future mayoral candidate pledging to get rid of it.
    Londoners who are under 16 travel for free as well plus there are discounts for those on JSA and students.
    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/25830.aspx

    MikeSmithson said:

    OldKingCole said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them) will just block up the gates instead, trying to get help?

    Did you see the link I posted a couple of weeks ago about Oystercard?
    It would be helpful if Englih (at least) bus passes worked on the Underground as they do on the buses. I can come in from Essex for a day in the capital and travel anywhere on a bus, but only on the underground if I buy the approrpiate return train ticket. Yet my friend who lives in London uses her pass on both.
    Agreed given that publc money is used to pay for both - it's just that the value of what London's senior citizens get is far more.

    London pensiioners should be treated in exactly the same way as those in the rest of England.

    It amazes me how these blatant age discrimination giveaways get past age discrimination laws. The more brazen in your face concessions tend to be above discrimination for some reason
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,132
    Bobajob said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    On the other hand, without an obvious place to go such as a ticket office, perhaps those tourists (and I think you are a little harsh on them)
    Pah. So would you be if you had to deal with them every day :)

    When in Rome, do as the Romans. Let them buy an Oyster Card – it's actually easier than working out a ticket as it does all the thinking for you, just tap and go. If they need help points, put them outside the stations not in the main concourse where they cause a bottleneck. Euston is a joke – you have to fight your way through half the time because of the madding crowds of out-of-towners.

    I should add that TFL are supposed to be introducing a system whereby you just tap your Visa card – that should help further.
    I don't know enough about the system to say if, and how, that would work. But it would still have to cope with the people arriving into town with the combined rail/underground tickets. Not quite sure how it would do that.

    It'd be great if all rail and bus travel in the UK could use the same card, as long as the user was aware of how much a particular journey would cost before embarkation. But there's a long way to go before that it feasible.

    Here is the link I mentioned earlier, detailing Oyster's successes and future problems. There's oodles of good information in it.
    http://www.londonreconnections.com/2011/the-problem-with-simples-why-oyster-is-a-victim-of-its-own-success/
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    Advantage of oyster cards is that you can slap it down which is so much cooler than feeding through a ticket
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Life_ina_market_town said:

    Bobajob said:

    Why not make everyone use an Oyster Card? Buy it out of a machine (ready charged with £10, £20, £5 whatever), saves buying a ticket every time. The whole idea that we have to carry around a scrap of paper to board a train is ludicrous.

    Get rid.

    I use an Oyster card out of convenience, but it should not be forgotten that one of the reasons Transport for London are so keen on promoting them is that in effect the system operates, in respect of pay as you go customers, as a giant system of interest-free loans to the government.
    That is true, to an extent, but remember that Oyster journeys are cheaper than paper-ticket journeys. In any event, so what? The idea that you ask people to put money in a machine, give them a scrap of paper that is easy to lose and make them stick it in a mechanical ticket muncher in this day and age is bonkers.

    The sooner they get rid of them, the better!

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    david_herdson said:

    anothernick said:

    The majority of 1st time Con incumbents will - I suppose - have won their seats from Labour in 2005. Therefore the constituencies concerned will be marginal and so they will share certain demographic similarities. Has this data been compared to non-Tory seats with similar demographics? How do we know that first-timeTory incumbency, and not demographics (or something else), is the causative factor here?

    You compare them with, say, how the Tories performed in their first fifty target seats in 2010? Those as a whole should have similar demographics to the 50ish that were gained in 2005 (they would be by definition marginally less 'Conservative', but were talking about bordering triskadekaciles near the middle of the set).
    These are the Tory targets from 2010. They hit 40 of their top 50 targets:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dC1xYVZtRklRVzZrMTNON0dRXzJ2Nnc&usp=drive_web
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    <
    Agreed given that publc money is used to pay for both - it's just that the value of what London's senior citizens get is far more.

    London pensiioners should be treated in exactly the same way as those in the rest of England.





    It amazes me how these blatant age discrimination giveaways get past age discrimination laws. The more brazen in your face concessions tend to be above discrimination for some reason



    I can understand it a bit for kids. But there is little to suggest somebody over 60 needs a journey to be free as opposed to somebody not over 60 . The average 60 years old is a lot wealthier than your average 20 year old
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T:

    Three women held as slaves in South London for more than 30 years have been rescued:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25040741
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Anorak said:

    antifrank said:

    Anorak said:

    Bobajob said:

    antifrank said:

    I refuse to use an Oyster card because I do not wish my personal movements to be tracked by anyone. We've seen enough misuse of data already.

    So you buy a ticket every time? Bizarre. The cameras alone will track your movements.
    Or if you must be paranoid, buy three from a vending machine with cash and use them randomly (if you're extra paranoid then bin after a month, rinse and repeat). Given the difference in Oyster/Non-Oyster pricing you'll still be quids in and The Man has no idea where you've been.
    Anyone who thinks that concerns about use of data are paranoia clearly hasn't been reading the newspapers this year.
    Your paranoia stems from the fact you think they give a monkeys about you and your travel. Unless there's something really interesting you're not telling us?

    [and if there's the occasional journey you really want to keep quiet about (visiting a lover, or the Iranian embassy), then an Oyster history on trips apart from that one is great camouflage]
    You could have said "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" and been so much more concise.

    But you'd have been just as wrong. We are in an era of big data. Authorities don't need to give a monkey's about any of us to be able to track us exhaustively and to watch what we are doing. They've got the computing power to be non-selective.

    Nor can we assume the information will remain private or be kept to restricted uses, given the proliferation of "Caught on CCTV" television programmes and the astonishing ways in which the authorities have used their powers to monitor us for all manner of purposes that were never intended when they were given those powers.

    You call it paranoia. I call it simple application of common sense to a new reality.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,132
    SeanT said:

    The entire political village is talking about jack Dromey, and the reverend Flowers, and pb is reduced to tedious guff about f*cking Oyster cards, all because some pathetic, mincing lefty, AKA bobajob, is a canting little tit with a blatant agenda.

    Well done. The site goes from strength to strength.

    It's a good job there's a comma there. Dromey and Flowers in the same scandal really would be a story!
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited November 2013
    state_go_away said:

    It amazes me how these blatant age discrimination giveaways get past age discrimination laws. The more brazen in your face concessions tend to be above discrimination for some reason

    Age is the only protected characteristic for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010 in respect of which it is permissible directly to discriminate, provided that the discrimination is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    SeanT said:

    The entire political village is talking about jack Dromey, and the reverend Flowers, and pb is reduced to tedious guff about f*cking Oyster cards, all because some pathetic, mincing lefty, AKA bobajob, is a canting little tit with a blatant agenda.

    Well done. The site goes from strength to strength.

    Good afternoon to you too Sean.

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Bangkok has a "Rabbit Card". Fascinating!
    http://www.bts.co.th/customer/en/01-ticket-type.aspx
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    <
    You could have said "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" and been so much more concise.

    But you'd have been just as wrong. We are in an era of big data. Authorities don't need to give a monkey's about any of us to be able to track us exhaustively and to watch what we are doing. They've got the computing power to be non-selective.

    Nor can we assume the information will remain private or be kept to restricted uses, given the proliferation of "Caught on CCTV" television programmes and the astonishing ways in which the authorities have used their powers to monitor us for all manner of purposes that were never intended when they were given those powers.

    You call it paranoia. I call it simple application of common sense to a new reality.

    Don't worry that mother of all solar flares will be along soon and MI5 will have to go back to sitting on a bench reading a newspaper with a cut out bit in the middle to spy through
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    old_labour said:

    Bangkok has a "Rabbit Card". Fascinating!
    http://www.bts.co.th/customer/en/01-ticket-type.aspx

    Talking of Bangkok, I've just discovered that you can spend a week there in a luxury hotel including return flight for the same price as a couple of nights in the Kings Cross Travelodge. That's a slight exaggeration, but not much.
  • Gerry_ManderGerry_Mander Posts: 621
    JosiasJessop said:



    It's a good job there's a comma there. Dromey and Flowers in the same scandal really would be a story!

    Wouldn't it be kind of cute if Jack, in order to get back in Hattie's good books, bought her some flowers.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited November 2013
    I've never been to the Far East. Maybe one day. At this time of year with the cold weather, Bangkok seems a better bet than the Kings Cross Travelodge.
    AndyJS said:

    old_labour said:

    Bangkok has a "Rabbit Card". Fascinating!
    http://www.bts.co.th/customer/en/01-ticket-type.aspx

    Talking of Bangkok, I've just discovered that you can spend a week there in a luxury hotel including return flight for the same price as a couple of nights in the Kings Cross Travelodge. That's a slight exaggeration, but not much.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    AndyJS said:

    old_labour said:

    Bangkok has a "Rabbit Card". Fascinating!
    http://www.bts.co.th/customer/en/01-ticket-type.aspx

    Talking of Bangkok, I've just discovered that you can spend a week there in a luxury hotel including return flight for the same price as a couple of nights in the Kings Cross Travelodge. That's a slight exaggeration, but not much.
    Has Bangkok had a multi million pound facelift creating a magnificient square to eat your Mcdonalds (of which there are 2 in close vicinity) in whilst waiting for the 19.30 to Leeds. No!
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    Bobajob said:

    Life_ina_market_town said:

    Bobajob said:

    Why not make everyone use an Oyster Card? Buy it out of a machine (ready charged with £10, £20, £5 whatever), saves buying a ticket every time. The whole idea that we have to carry around a scrap of paper to board a train is ludicrous.

    Get rid.

    I use an Oyster card out of convenience, but it should not be forgotten that one of the reasons Transport for London are so keen on promoting them is that in effect the system operates, in respect of pay as you go customers, as a giant system of interest-free loans to the government.
    That is true, to an extent, but remember that Oyster journeys are cheaper than paper-ticket journeys. In any event, so what? The idea that you ask people to put money in a machine, give them a scrap of paper that is easy to lose and make them stick it in a mechanical ticket muncher in this day and age is bonkers.

    The sooner they get rid of them, the better!

    I'm sure Oyster cards are very convenient for Londoners. A paper ticket or two however remains less cumersome for someone who only visits the capital when Bradford City are at Wembley.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    LOL.
    state_go_away said:

    AndyJS said:

    old_labour said:

    Bangkok has a "Rabbit Card". Fascinating!
    http://www.bts.co.th/customer/en/01-ticket-type.aspx

    Talking of Bangkok, I've just discovered that you can spend a week there in a luxury hotel including return flight for the same price as a couple of nights in the Kings Cross Travelodge. That's a slight exaggeration, but not much.
    Has Bangkok had a multi million pound facelift creating a magnificient square to eat your Mcdonalds (of which there are 2 in close vicinity) in whilst waiting for the 19.30 to Leeds. No!
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    "The Tories are not fooling anyone either by earmarking 2017 to hold the referendum. It’s no coincidence that this is when the UK will receive the rotating Presidency of the Council of Ministers, and will be accompanied by increased media coverage of the EU.

    The government will make use of that opportunity to project the image of a Britain that is busy ‘running Europe’. However, all we will gain is limited power to set the agenda for six months. It will inevitably be sold to the Great British public in the midst of a referendum as a demonstration of the influence the UK wields in Brussels."

    http://www.trendingcentral.com/cams-plan-eu-referendum-vocally-challenged/
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    One for tim to cheer surely ?

    George Osborne ‏@George_Osborne 46s

    New stats today show housebuilding at its fastest rate since 2008. Helping thousands of #hardworking people onto the property ladder
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Good to see MEPs voting to end the Strasbourg madness:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2510535/European-Parliament-scrap-Strasbourg-HQ-make-Brussels-sole-seat.html

    Wonder how UKIP MEPs voted?

    :InnocentFace:
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,857
    Gerry_Mander said:

    JosiasJessop said:



    It's a good job there's a comma there. Dromey and Flowers in the same scandal really would be a story!

    Wouldn't it be kind of cute if Jack, in order to get back in Hattie's good books, bought her some flowers.</blockquote

    Flowers and the Mayor of Toronto should be on anyone's stag party invite list imo
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,339
    LSE Chaplain on Rev Flowers and Co-Op.

    http://www.christiansontheleft.org.uk/paul_flowers_when_cronyism_met_clericalism
  • R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    SeanT said:

    The entire political village is talking about jack Dromey, and the reverend Flowers, and pb is reduced to tedious guff about f*cking Oyster cards, all because some pathetic, mincing lefty, AKA bobajob, is a canting little tit with a blatant agenda.

    Well done. The site goes from strength to strength.

    I think I found the endless Falkirking to any of the above topics.

    I'm still pretty interested in this phantom poll, mind. Come on Dan, let's see what you've got!
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Apologies in advance to SeanT.
    TfL's plan for contactless card payments: what you need to know
  • isamisam Posts: 42,651
    Bobajob said:

    isam said:

    Bobajob said:

    Completely agree with the Tube policy. Apart from the fact that we should had 24-hour weekend running eons ago, the ticket offices are for morons – and tourists. The bottlenecking and crowding around ticket offices at mainline stations is almost entirely due to tourists who have failed to do their research. No-one in London buys tickets – we all have Oyster Cards, which are much cheaper and work on all public transport in Gtr London. Tickets are more expensive, create waste and causing crowding in stations. Get rid.

    The tourists will just block up the ticket machines instead of the office, so whats the difference?
    Why not make everyone use an Oyster Card? Buy it out of a machine (ready charged with £10, £20, £5 whatever), saves buying a ticket every time. The whole idea that we have to carry around a scrap of paper to board a train is ludicrous.

    Get rid.
    Yeah agreed
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    CarlottaVance said:

    Good to see MEPs voting to end the Strasbourg madness:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2510535/European-Parliament-scrap-Strasbourg-HQ-make-Brussels-sole-seat.html

    Wonder how UKIP MEPs voted?

    :InnocentFace:

    Save your cheers for when the French give it up, which is unlikely to be any time soon (or at least, not without a substantial quid pro quo).
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,339
    edited November 2013
    Rev Flowers smear latest - hosted a reception during Tory Conference.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/444340/Disgraced-Co-op-Bank-chair-Paul-Flowers-hosted-reception-at-Tory-party-conference

    Who is dropping him in the sh1t - can't all be Lib Dems or Tories?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    david_herdson said:

    Bobajob said:

    Life_ina_market_town said:

    Bobajob said:

    Why not make everyone use an Oyster Card? Buy it out of a machine (ready charged with £10, £20, £5 whatever), saves buying a ticket every time. The whole idea that we have to carry around a scrap of paper to board a train is ludicrous.

    Get rid.

    I use an Oyster card out of convenience, but it should not be forgotten that one of the reasons Transport for London are so keen on promoting them is that in effect the system operates, in respect of pay as you go customers, as a giant system of interest-free loans to the government.
    That is true, to an extent, but remember that Oyster journeys are cheaper than paper-ticket journeys. In any event, so what? The idea that you ask people to put money in a machine, give them a scrap of paper that is easy to lose and make them stick it in a mechanical ticket muncher in this day and age is bonkers.

    The sooner they get rid of them, the better!

    I'm sure Oyster cards are very convenient for Londoners. A paper ticket or two however remains less cumersome for someone who only visits the capital when Bradford City are at Wembley.
    You mean you don't follow them away at Leyton Orient??

  • Gerry_ManderGerry_Mander Posts: 621
    dr_spyn said:

    LSE Chaplain on Rev Flowers and Co-Op.

    http://www.christiansontheleft.org.uk/paul_flowers_when_cronyism_met_clericalism

    From the above link
    Flowers was well connected in the Labour Party and this seems to have impressed many who appointed him believing the bank would benefit from a big political hitter
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    The entire political village is talking about jack Dromey, and the reverend Flowers, and pb is reduced to tedious guff about f*cking Oyster cards, all because some pathetic, mincing lefty, AKA bobajob, is a canting little tit with a blatant agenda.

    Well done. The site goes from strength to strength.

    Oh hush - next you'll be telling us this site isn't straight down the middle neutral....

    It's a left liberal media blogging conspiracy.
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