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  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,802
    edited May 2017

    Interesting. I did write about this a few weeks ago.

    Top pollster Stephan Shakespeare will be analysing the state of the parties exclusively for the Standard during the General Election campaign. Today the CEO and founder of YouGov says the latest evidence indicates many traditional Labour voters are preparing to ‘hold their nose’ and back the party again despite doubts over Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2017-polls-jeremy-corbyn-could-benefit-as-labour-voters-hold-noses-to-back-party-a3533271.html

    "A safe assumption has now turned into something close to certainty that Mrs May will stay in No 10, with an increased majority, and we can also be reasonably sure Jeremy Corbyn will not be leader for long. Weirdly, this helps him get more votes."

    Oh really.....
    The sympathy shag vote, to stop Mrs May giving a silly majority/save Labour

    See, points 2,3, and 4 here

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/04/23/why-a-1997-style-landslide-or-even-a-1983-style-landslide-might-not-happen-but-maybe-a-2005-style-majority-of-66-will/
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    FPT:
    For those wondering whether Ms Abbott's gaffe last week was a one off that could happen to anyone, try this from June last year.

    Written PQ from Diane Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development, what steps she has taken to assist people in the Indonesian province of Province of Davao del Norte affected by the drought in that province.
    Answer from SoS DfiD Justine Greening: There is no province called Davao del Norte in Indonesia.
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-06-24/41141/

    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.

    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,074
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    PaulM said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    FPT:
    For those wondering whether Ms Abbott's gaffe last week was a one off that could happen to anyone, try this from June last year.

    Written PQ from Diane Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development, what steps she has taken to assist people in the Indonesian province of Province of Davao del Norte affected by the drought in that province.
    Answer from SoS DfiD Justine Greening: There is no province called Davao del Norte in Indonesia.
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-06-24/41141/

    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    Wasn't aware that Christ had ever come over to Britain..
    Of course. With Joseph of Arimathea. Went to Glastonbury
    Why isn't this mentioned in The Bible?
    It happened during the missing 30 years....
    Depeche Mode filmed their 1989 video to Personal Jesus in Spain!
  • 'Daily Mirror' on the case now - not exactly a neutral source, but it does sound if they have some firm information.

    "Prosecutors to reveal if they'll charge up to 30 Tory MPs with election fraud THIS WEEK"

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/prosecutors-reveal-theyll-charge-up-10382571

    This week would be ideal, would allow the Tories to put in replacement candidates if charges happen early this week.
    Charges seem unlikely especIally to mps..
    Given where this story all started from, I don't share your confidence.

    'Daily Mirror' on the case now - not exactly a neutral source, but it does sound if they have some firm information.

    "Prosecutors to reveal if they'll charge up to 30 Tory MPs with election fraud THIS WEEK"

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/prosecutors-reveal-theyll-charge-up-10382571

    This week would be ideal, would allow the Tories to put in replacement candidates if charges happen early this week.
    Charges seem unlikely especIally to mps..
    Given where this story all started from, I don't share your confidence.
    I was thinking about Marquee Mark,s comments.
    I agree with TSE- i live in Thanet S -this story has legs
  • Arthur_Penny
    Arthur_Penny Posts: 198

    Does 'fascism' now mean 'wanting immigration controls'?

    It means anything that the 'liberal elite' don't like - and as such has no meaning at all and so can be safely ignored along with racist, xenophobe, islamophobe, corbynophobe, little-englander, neocon, lepenophile etc.

    Pretty well all European countries have immigration controls. Some work better than others.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11013786/France-becoming-weak-link-in-European-migration-control-as-police-warn-of-alarming-rise-in-illegal-migrants.html
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722

    Interesting. I did write about this a few weeks ago.

    Top pollster Stephan Shakespeare will be analysing the state of the parties exclusively for the Standard during the General Election campaign. Today the CEO and founder of YouGov says the latest evidence indicates many traditional Labour voters are preparing to ‘hold their nose’ and back the party again despite doubts over Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2017-polls-jeremy-corbyn-could-benefit-as-labour-voters-hold-noses-to-back-party-a3533271.html

    "A safe assumption has now turned into something close to certainty that Mrs May will stay in No 10, with an increased majority, and we can also be reasonably sure Jeremy Corbyn will not be leader for long. Weirdly, this helps him get more votes."

    Oh really.....
    The sympathy shag vote, to stop Mrs May giving a silly majority/save Labour

    See, points 2,3, and 4 here

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/04/23/why-a-1997-style-landslide-or-even-a-1983-style-landslide-might-not-happen-but-maybe-a-2005-style-majority-of-66-will/
    My point was about Jezza going....he appears to be making quite clear he intends to nothing of the sort. I wonder what all Polly Nose Pegs Labour voters will think?
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,802
    They know how toxic Corbyn is. Sack up and do something about it you cowards.

    https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/861691466191585280
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,802
    edited May 2017
    I hate Theresa May. She's trying to topple Richard Burgon, we need him in Parliament, he should be Corbyn's replacement.

    Mr Burgon, who nominated Mr Corbyn in the 2015 Labour leadership election, has failed to reference Mr Corbyn once in his four page campaign leaflet.

    He has instead included a photograph of himself stood alongside the shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and adopted the slogan ‘Putting East Leeds First’.

    His constituency of Leeds East, where he has a 12,533 majority, is one of Theresa May's key target seats in June's election.


  • Mortimer
    Mortimer Posts: 14,229
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    FPT:
    For those wondering whether Ms Abbott's gaffe last week was a one off that could happen to anyone, try this from June last year.

    Written PQ from Diane Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development, what steps she has taken to assist people in the Indonesian province of Province of Davao del Norte affected by the drought in that province.
    Answer from SoS DfiD Justine Greening: There is no province called Davao del Norte in Indonesia.
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-06-24/41141/

    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.

    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    I've heard they even let people with red shoes into Fen Poly.

    Wouldn't happen at good old Cowley Tech.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,802

    Interesting. I did write about this a few weeks ago.

    Top pollster Stephan Shakespeare will be analysing the state of the parties exclusively for the Standard during the General Election campaign. Today the CEO and founder of YouGov says the latest evidence indicates many traditional Labour voters are preparing to ‘hold their nose’ and back the party again despite doubts over Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2017-polls-jeremy-corbyn-could-benefit-as-labour-voters-hold-noses-to-back-party-a3533271.html

    "A safe assumption has now turned into something close to certainty that Mrs May will stay in No 10, with an increased majority, and we can also be reasonably sure Jeremy Corbyn will not be leader for long. Weirdly, this helps him get more votes."

    Oh really.....
    The sympathy shag vote, to stop Mrs May giving a silly majority/save Labour

    See, points 2,3, and 4 here

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/04/23/why-a-1997-style-landslide-or-even-a-1983-style-landslide-might-not-happen-but-maybe-a-2005-style-majority-of-66-will/
    My point was about Jezza going....he appears to be making quite clear he intends to nothing of the sort. I wonder what all Polly Nose Pegs Labour voters will think?
    My apologies for misunderstanding you.
  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    If I credited Corbyn with any guile I would say that his ludicrous statement that he will go on and on was designed to spark a mid campaign rebellion from the PLP so the absurd Milne can then blame the inevitable election smashing on them. But that would be too clever by half. As it is, Corbyn will be challenged and if he wins the challenge the party will split. So be it. Five years is long enough to build a party. Just look at Macron!
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,308
    In a few weeks’ time, the full horror or Labour’s predicament will be revealed and the party will begin the mother of all internal wars:


    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2017/05/08/the-state-of-labour-post-anger-pre-recrimination/#more-21574
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    OUT said:
    That actually would be taking back control wouldn't it?!
  • RoyalBlue
    RoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042

    Interesting. I did write about this a few weeks ago.

    Top pollster Stephan Shakespeare will be analysing the state of the parties exclusively for the Standard during the General Election campaign. Today the CEO and founder of YouGov says the latest evidence indicates many traditional Labour voters are preparing to ‘hold their nose’ and back the party again despite doubts over Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2017-polls-jeremy-corbyn-could-benefit-as-labour-voters-hold-noses-to-back-party-a3533271.html

    A lot of my Leftie mates seem to be leaning that way, which I think unwise as a vote for Labour will be interpreted as a vote for Corbyn. What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,802
    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    FPT:
    For those wondering whether Ms Abbott's gaffe last week was a one off that could happen to anyone, try this from June last year.

    Written PQ from Diane Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development, what steps she has taken to assist people in the Indonesian province of Province of Davao del Norte affected by the drought in that province.
    Answer from SoS DfiD Justine Greening: There is no province called Davao del Norte in Indonesia.
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-06-24/41141/

    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.
    .
    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    I've heard they even let people with red shoes into Fen Poly.

    Wouldn't happen at good old Cowley Tech.
    Cowley Tech let in David Miliband with 3 Bs and a D, and also Jeffrey Archer.

    Just saying.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    The Greens standing aside helps the SNP.
    The Greens standing aside helps Lib Dems vs Tories.

    I'm not convinced the Lib Dems standing aside in Brighton will necessarily help Lucas...

  • Arthur_Penny
    Arthur_Penny Posts: 198
    Scott_P said:

    How worried is Angus Robertson?

    Apparent the SNPs little helpers Greens have agreed not to stand against him

    Probably more to save their £500.00
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,074

    I hate Theresa May. She's trying to topple Richard Burgon, we need him in Parliament, he should be Corbyn's replacement.

    Mr Burgon, who nominated Mr Corbyn in the 2015 Labour leadership election, has failed to reference Mr Corbyn once in his four page campaign leaflet.

    He has instead included a photograph of himself stood alongside the shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and adopted the slogan ‘Putting East Leeds First’.

    His constituency of Leeds East, where he has a 12,533 majority, is one of Theresa May's key target seats in June's election.


    "Standing alongside", surely, Mr Grammar Centurion!
  • philiph
    philiph Posts: 4,705
    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    As a non legal expert, is the CPS expected to bring charges in cases that it thinks they will win, or where they think the potential defendant is guilty?

    Guilt can be exceedingly difficult to prove and the two are very different.
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608
    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    As a non legal expert, is the CPS expected to bring charges in cases that it thinks they will win, or where they think the potential defendant is guilty?

    Guilt can be exceedingly difficult to prove and the two are very different.
    Isn't it "if it is in the public interest"?
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,802
    edited May 2017
    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    As a non legal expert, is the CPS expected to bring charges in cases that it thinks they will win, or where they think the potential defendant is guilty?

    Guilt can be exceedingly difficult to prove and the two are very different.
    This should explain it better than I can

    Here's one of the tests.

    The evidential test

    The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction.

    This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.

    It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/decision_to_charge.html
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited May 2017

    progressive adjective> pro·gres·sive \prə-ˈgre-siv\

    (Of a political party) : Convinced of its own moral superiority, especially over the Conservative Party; hypocritical.

    Could we have a definition of 'near-perfect' please Mr N?
    Certainly:

    Near perfect: adjective

    Of a Chancellor's macro-economic policy: Conducive to low unemployment and growth whilst rapidly improving the fiscal position; un-Brownian.
  • tyson
    tyson Posts: 6,122
    bobajobPB said:

    Interesting. I did write about this a few weeks ago.

    Top pollster Stephan Shakespeare will be analysing the state of the parties exclusively for the Standard during the General Election campaign. Today the CEO and founder of YouGov says the latest evidence indicates many traditional Labour voters are preparing to ‘hold their nose’ and back the party again despite doubts over Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2017-polls-jeremy-corbyn-could-benefit-as-labour-voters-hold-noses-to-back-party-a3533271.html

    A lot of my Leftie mates seem to be leaning that way, which I think unwise as a vote for Labour will be interpreted as a vote for Corbyn. What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?
    I have come to the conclusion that a vote for Labour is a vote for Corbyn's cronies (Milne and McDonnell), and one vote closer to them staying propping the old fool up...


  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    Three Quidder

    Indeed.

    But as your definition of bullying means asking people to make election predictions rather than trolling; and smearing, quoting polls; you might have a problem with crying wolf.
  • Ishmael_Z
    Ishmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    FPT:
    For those wondering whether Ms Abbott's gaffe last week was a one off that could happen to anyone, try this from June last year.

    Written PQ from Diane Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development, what steps she has taken to assist people in the Indonesian province of Province of Davao del Norte affected by the drought in that province.
    Answer from SoS DfiD Justine Greening: There is no province called Davao del Norte in Indonesia.
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-06-24/41141/

    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.

    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    "Extensive trade links from mid 50s BC onwards" doesn't justify "so probably before that as well", because of rather important events in 55 and 54 BC. And, again, trade links don't imply travels from one end of the chain to the other. She presumably simply misdates Caesar's invasion by a few centuries, since she says "centurions" rather than "traders" (and also thinks centurion just means soldier, in the absence of any argument why centurions are more likely to be black than other ranks are).
  • TheWhiteRabbit
    TheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455

    I hate Theresa May. She's trying to topple Richard Burgon, we need him in Parliament, he should be Corbyn's replacement.

    Mr Burgon, who nominated Mr Corbyn in the 2015 Labour leadership election, has failed to reference Mr Corbyn once in his four page campaign leaflet.

    He has instead included a photograph of himself stood alongside the shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and adopted the slogan ‘Putting East Leeds First’.

    His constituency of Leeds East, where he has a 12,533 majority, is one of Theresa May's key target seats in June's election.


    Can we rewind... Leeds East - key target?!
  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    Scott_P said:
    Scott_P said:
    I saw that as a fat cigar in his hand. Which would have been quite droll. Sadly Corbyn disappoints again.
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,074
    edited May 2017

    progressive adjective> pro·gres·sive \prə-ˈgre-siv\

    (Of a political party) : Convinced of its own moral superiority, especially over the Conservative Party; hypocritical.

    Could we have a definition of 'near-perfect' please Mr N?
    Certainly:

    Near perfect: adjective

    Of politicians: the ability to hold down half a dozen jobs simultaneously.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,802

    I hate Theresa May. She's trying to topple Richard Burgon, we need him in Parliament, he should be Corbyn's replacement.

    Mr Burgon, who nominated Mr Corbyn in the 2015 Labour leadership election, has failed to reference Mr Corbyn once in his four page campaign leaflet.

    He has instead included a photograph of himself stood alongside the shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and adopted the slogan ‘Putting East Leeds First’.

    His constituency of Leeds East, where he has a 12,533 majority, is one of Theresa May's key target seats in June's election.


    Can we rewind... Leeds East - key target?!
    According to The Telegraph and Mrs May.
  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    tyson said:

    bobajobPB said:

    Interesting. I did write about this a few weeks ago.

    Top pollster Stephan Shakespeare will be analysing the state of the parties exclusively for the Standard during the General Election campaign. Today the CEO and founder of YouGov says the latest evidence indicates many traditional Labour voters are preparing to ‘hold their nose’ and back the party again despite doubts over Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2017-polls-jeremy-corbyn-could-benefit-as-labour-voters-hold-noses-to-back-party-a3533271.html

    A lot of my Leftie mates seem to be leaning that way, which I think unwise as a vote for Labour will be interpreted as a vote for Corbyn. What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?
    I have come to the conclusion that a vote for Labour is a vote for Corbyn's cronies (Milne and McDonnell), and one vote closer to them staying propping the old fool up...


    That's the problem. But the collective Leftie view seems to be that they don't want to destroy the party/give May a blank cheque.
  • JonnyJimmy
    JonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    i really want to know, from one of our recent resident experts on fascism (you know who you are, Meeks et al.), how does one qualify as a fascist beyond wanting controls on immigration? That seems to be your absurd bar for it..
  • Ishmael_Z
    Ishmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited May 2017

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    FPT:
    For those wondering whether Ms Abbott's gaffe last week was a one off that could happen to anyone, try this from June last year.

    Written PQ from Diane Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development, what steps she has taken to assist people in the Indonesian province of Province of Davao del Norte.
    Answer from SoS DfiD Justine Greening: There is no province called Davao del Norte in Indonesia.
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-06-24/41141/

    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.
    .
    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    I've heard they even let people with red shoes into Fen Poly.

    Wouldn't happen at good old Cowley Tech.
    Cowley Tech let in David Miliband with 3 Bs and a D, and also Jeffrey Archer.

    Just saying.
    No, no, no. You have made the schoolboy error of believing what Jeffrey archer says. He attended a teacher training course or something which took place during the long vacation at Brasenose; he was never a member of the university.
  • RobinWiggs
    RobinWiggs Posts: 621
    bobajobPB said:

    What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?

    If it is entirely within the box, a good agent will argue that it is expression of a clear preference and that the vote should stand.

    I've argued that a quickly drawn phallus is a valid vote...

  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813

    I hate Theresa May. She's trying to topple Richard Burgon, we need him in Parliament, he should be Corbyn's replacement.

    Mr Burgon, who nominated Mr Corbyn in the 2015 Labour leadership election, has failed to reference Mr Corbyn once in his four page campaign leaflet.

    He has instead included a photograph of himself stood alongside the shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and adopted the slogan ‘Putting East Leeds First’.

    His constituency of Leeds East, where he has a 12,533 majority, is one of Theresa May's key target seats in June's election.


    Can we rewind... Leeds East - key target?!
    Amusing 2010 Lib Dem vote that collapsed there and reappeared as UKIP in 2015 !
    Tories might get 35% there but looks to far to me.
  • ThreeQuidder
    ThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction

    Has anyone told them that? :)
  • chrisb
    chrisb Posts: 121

    I hate Theresa May. She's trying to topple Richard Burgon, we need him in Parliament, he should be Corbyn's replacement.

    Mr Burgon, who nominated Mr Corbyn in the 2015 Labour leadership election, has failed to reference Mr Corbyn once in his four page campaign leaflet.

    He has instead included a photograph of himself stood alongside the shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and adopted the slogan ‘Putting East Leeds First’.

    His constituency of Leeds East, where he has a 12,533 majority, is one of Theresa May's key target seats in June's election.


    Can we rewind... Leeds East - key target?!
    According to The Telegraph and Mrs May.
    She has stopped off there on her campaign tour. Of all the places she's stopped at, I think it's the one with the biggest swing required to take it.
  • Arthur_Penny
    Arthur_Penny Posts: 198

    bobajobPB said:

    What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?

    If it is entirely within the box, a good agent will argue that it is expression of a clear preference and that the vote should stand.

    I've argued that a quickly drawn phallus is a valid vote...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32693485
  • BenedictWhite
    BenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    tyson said:

    bobajobPB said:

    Interesting. I did write about this a few weeks ago.

    Top pollster Stephan Shakespeare will be analysing the state of the parties exclusively for the Standard during the General Election campaign. Today the CEO and founder of YouGov says the latest evidence indicates many traditional Labour voters are preparing to ‘hold their nose’ and back the party again despite doubts over Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2017-polls-jeremy-corbyn-could-benefit-as-labour-voters-hold-noses-to-back-party-a3533271.html

    A lot of my Leftie mates seem to be leaning that way, which I think unwise as a vote for Labour will be interpreted as a vote for Corbyn. What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?
    I have come to the conclusion that a vote for Labour is a vote for Corbyn's cronies (Milne and McDonnell), and one vote closer to them staying propping the old fool up...


    Given your fondness of my favoured Conservative leader, I suspect you're a nats whisker away from voting Tory.... :)

    I have to say that unless Labour are thrashed the hard ridiculous left will hang on. I find that outrageous. It would also be a travesty if Corbyn in any way, shape, manner or form beat Michael Foot, who was on comparison reasonable, very intelligent, a magnificent orator and indeed a man of integrity, Corbyn is none of those and he deserves to lose and lose very very badly.
  • ThreeQuidder
    ThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    bobajobPB said:

    Three Quidder

    Indeed.

    But as your definition of bullying means asking people to make election predictions rather than trolling; and smearing, quoting polls; you might have a problem with crying wolf.

    Repeatedly demanding a particular person appears so you can have a go at them is bullying.

    Misleadingly partially quoting polls to make a group you disagree with look bad is smearing.

    Hope this helps.
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,308
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    "Extensive trade links from mid 50s BC onwards" doesn't justify "so probably before that as well", because of rather important events in 55 and 54 BC. And, again, trade links don't imply travels from one end of the chain to the other. She presumably simply misdates Caesar's invasion by a few centuries, since she says "centurions" rather than "traders" (and also thinks centurion just means soldier, in the absence of any argument why centurions are more likely to be black than other ranks are).
    From WP:

    There is evidence of the presence of people from Romanised North Africa in Roman Britain. Archaeological inscriptions suggest that most of these residents were involved with the military. However, some were in the upper echelons of society. Analysis of a skull found in a Roman grave in Yorkshire indicated that it belonged to a mixed-race female. Her sarcophagus was made of stone and also contained a jet bracelet and an ivory bangle, indicating great wealth for the time.

    In 2007, scientists found the rare paternal haplogroup A1 in several living British men with Yorkshire surnames. This clade is today almost exclusively found among males in West Africa, where it is also rare. The haplogroup is thus thought to have been brought to Britain either through enlisted soldiers during Roman Britain, or via the slave trade. Some of the individuals who arrived through the slave route attained a very high social rank and married into the general population.
  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042

    bobajobPB said:

    What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?

    If it is entirely within the box, a good agent will argue that it is expression of a clear preference and that the vote should stand.

    I've argued that a quickly drawn phallus is a valid vote...

    bobajobPB said:

    What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?

    If it is entirely within the box, a good agent will argue that it is expression of a clear preference and that the vote should stand.

    I've argued that a quickly drawn phallus is a valid vote...

    bobajobPB said:

    What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?

    If it is entirely within the box, a good agent will argue that it is expression of a clear preference and that the vote should stand.

    I've argued that a quickly drawn phallus is a valid vote...

    Surely there is the basis of a voting campaign right there? Love Labour, Hate Corbyn? Join our campaign to write Corbyn Is A Massive Twat in the Labour box.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    chrisb said:

    I hate Theresa May. She's trying to topple Richard Burgon, we need him in Parliament, he should be Corbyn's replacement.

    Mr Burgon, who nominated Mr Corbyn in the 2015 Labour leadership election, has failed to reference Mr Corbyn once in his four page campaign leaflet.

    He has instead included a photograph of himself stood alongside the shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and adopted the slogan ‘Putting East Leeds First’.

    His constituency of Leeds East, where he has a 12,533 majority, is one of Theresa May's key target seats in June's election.


    Can we rewind... Leeds East - key target?!
    According to The Telegraph and Mrs May.
    She has stopped off there on her campaign tour. Of all the places she's stopped at, I think it's the one with the biggest swing required to take it.
    It'd be the shock of the night !
  • bobajobPB said:

    If I credited Corbyn with any guile I would say that his ludicrous statement that he will go on and on was designed to spark a mid campaign rebellion from the PLP so the absurd Milne can then blame the inevitable election smashing on them. But that would be too clever by half. As it is, Corbyn will be challenged and if he wins the challenge the party will split. So be it. Five years is long enough to build a party. Just look at Macron!

    That is a very fair point-if you were a Labour MP who was not a Corbynista, Macron's victory would be very encouraging.

    I know the electoral system is different but it is still encouraging.
  • Jason
    Jason Posts: 1,614

    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    As a non legal expert, is the CPS expected to bring charges in cases that it thinks they will win, or where they think the potential defendant is guilty?

    Guilt can be exceedingly difficult to prove and the two are very different.
    This should explain it better than I can

    Here's one of the tests.

    The evidential test

    The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction.

    This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.

    It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/decision_to_charge.html
    So if they do bring charges, there must be substantial evidence that there was intent to commit fraud. If so, that is extremely serious, especially if it applies to all the MPs involved. The media will be salivating over this.
  • philiph
    philiph Posts: 4,705

    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    As a non legal expert, is the CPS expected to bring charges in cases that it thinks they will win, or where they think the potential defendant is guilty?

    Guilt can be exceedingly difficult to prove and the two are very different.
    This should explain it better than I can

    Here's one of the tests.

    The evidential test

    The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction.

    This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.

    It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/decision_to_charge.html
    Thanks

    That is clear and understandable, could be because there are no puns or 80s pop music references.

    I wonder if those criteria are more helpful to the accused than to CPS or other parties?

    It has always looked to me that the real guilt lies at Central Office, not local level. I could see a case built around the advice from central office that the EC had always accepted the battle bus costs as National expenditure in the past, so it was not to be included in local costs as overwhelmingly persuasive. I suspect the EC is guilty of allowing unacceptable practice to grow over time, and for that to become the moving line with each election to which the parties could acceptably bend the rules.

    Whilst guilt of someone(or more than one) in the Tory ranks is undeniable, I could see agents and MPs building a good defense.

    That, of course, is academic in terms of the bad press from charges, accusations and a hostile and aggressive press.
  • Scrapheap_as_was
    Scrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    chrisb said:

    I hate Theresa May. She's trying to topple Richard Burgon, we need him in Parliament, he should be Corbyn's replacement.

    Mr Burgon, who nominated Mr Corbyn in the 2015 Labour leadership election, has failed to reference Mr Corbyn once in his four page campaign leaflet.

    He has instead included a photograph of himself stood alongside the shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and adopted the slogan ‘Putting East Leeds First’.

    His constituency of Leeds East, where he has a 12,533 majority, is one of Theresa May's key target seats in June's election.


    Can we rewind... Leeds East - key target?!
    According to The Telegraph and Mrs May.
    She has stopped off there on her campaign tour. Of all the places she's stopped at, I think it's the one with the biggest swing required to take it.
    He's priceless and has a great career outside politics to look forward to as the new lembit opik
  • Philip_Thompson
    Philip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    bobajobPB said:

    If I credited Corbyn with any guile I would say that his ludicrous statement that he will go on and on was designed to spark a mid campaign rebellion from the PLP so the absurd Milne can then blame the inevitable election smashing on them. But that would be too clever by half. As it is, Corbyn will be challenged and if he wins the challenge the party will split. So be it. Five years is long enough to build a party. Just look at Macron!

    That is a very fair point-if you were a Labour MP who was not a Corbynista, Macron's victory would be very encouraging.

    I know the electoral system is different but it is still encouraging.
    The electoral system is not that different. It is closer to our system than it is to PR. Of all the forms of alternative electoral systems, the French is the model after FPTP I'd accept the most.
  • BenedictWhite
    BenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:



    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests

    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.

    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    "Extensive trade links from mid 50s BC onwards" doesn't justify "so probably before that as well", because of rather important events in 55 and 54 BC. And, again, trade links don't imply travels from one end of the chain to the other. She presumably simply misdates Caesar's invasion by a few centuries, since she says "centurions" rather than "traders" (and also thinks centurion just means soldier, in the absence of any argument why centurions are more likely to be black than other ranks are).
    There is evidence of pre birth of Christ trading with Phoenician traders, and whilst the Roman world would have rubbed up against our shores I don't believe there is any evidence of Romans being here say pre 200 BC which is what we are talking about as Rome's empire hadn't got going by then.
  • RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    The CPS know that the Tories will win the election -are they really going to make a decision before June the 8th ?
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Leeds East? Really?
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    Newsnight asking if Macron can succeed in making the French more like the British. A noble aspiration.

  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,308

    bobajobPB said:

    What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?

    If it is entirely within the box, a good agent will argue that it is expression of a clear preference and that the vote should stand.

    I've argued that a quickly drawn phallus is a valid vote...

    I doubt a written comment obviously negative about a candidate would qualify as a valid vote (leaving aside any considerations about identifying the voter). I believe there is case precedent about "not him" written in the box not counting.

    At least with a drawing there is a degree of ambiguity.
  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042

    bobajobPB said:

    Three Quidder

    Indeed.

    But as your definition of bullying means asking people to make election predictions rather than trolling; and smearing, quoting polls; you might have a problem with crying wolf.

    Repeatedly demanding a particular person appears so you can have a go at them is bullying.

    Misleadingly partially quoting polls to make a group you disagree with look bad is smearing.

    Hope this helps.
    I asked Moniker several times to predict the French election result after he - several times - ramped and dog whistled a Le Pen victory. That is a perfectly reasonable response. It is not bullying.
  • Jason
    Jason Posts: 1,614
    Did Ummuna just endorse Jeremy Corbyn?
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,308

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    The CPS know that the Tories will win the election -are they really going to make a decision before June the 8th ?
    Legally they have no choice; they have already been granted one extension and the deadlines are days away. I have no idea whether a minister could grant a further extension or not, but the political costs of doing so probably rule this out even if it could be done.
  • philiph
    philiph Posts: 4,705
    edited May 2017

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    The CPS know that the Tories will win the election -are they really going to make a decision before June the 8th ?
    They have to make a decision of Yes Charges or No Charges before the election.

    They could wimp out and make no decision, and then rather limply say - 'Nothing we can do, it is too late'
  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042

    bobajobPB said:

    If I credited Corbyn with any guile I would say that his ludicrous statement that he will go on and on was designed to spark a mid campaign rebellion from the PLP so the absurd Milne can then blame the inevitable election smashing on them. But that would be too clever by half. As it is, Corbyn will be challenged and if he wins the challenge the party will split. So be it. Five years is long enough to build a party. Just look at Macron!

    That is a very fair point-if you were a Labour MP who was not a Corbynista, Macron's victory would be very encouraging.

    I know the electoral system is different but it is still encouraging.
    Thanks. I now think that a split may not be that bad an outcome. Given that the splitting party will (I assume) have 100+ MPs and five years, that's not too bad a starting point.
  • JonnyJimmy
    JonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    bobajobPB said:

    bobajobPB said:

    Three Quidder

    Indeed.

    But as your definition of bullying means asking people to make election predictions rather than trolling; and smearing, quoting polls; you might have a problem with crying wolf.

    Repeatedly demanding a particular person appears so you can have a go at them is bullying.

    Misleadingly partially quoting polls to make a group you disagree with look bad is smearing.

    Hope this helps.
    I asked Moniker several times to predict the French election result after he - several times - ramped and dog whistled a Le Pen victory. That is a perfectly reasonable response. It is not bullying.
    Will you define fascist for us? I think you've been throwing it around a bit lately, and accusing fellow PBers of being fascist supporters, if memory serves (apols if I'm wrong). Surely you can quite easily tell us precisely what you mean by it?
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,308

    bobajobPB said:

    If I credited Corbyn with any guile I would say that his ludicrous statement that he will go on and on was designed to spark a mid campaign rebellion from the PLP so the absurd Milne can then blame the inevitable election smashing on them. But that would be too clever by half. As it is, Corbyn will be challenged and if he wins the challenge the party will split. So be it. Five years is long enough to build a party. Just look at Macron!

    That is a very fair point-if you were a Labour MP who was not a Corbynista, Macron's victory would be very encouraging.

    I know the electoral system is different but it is still encouraging.
    The electoral system is not that different. It is closer to our system than it is to PR. Of all the forms of alternative electoral systems, the French is the model after FPTP I'd accept the most.
    Without the AV-style forced run off it was close to a four-way tie between him, a loony lefty, a proto-fascist, and an apparently corrupt Conservative. Which is only encouraging up to a point...
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608

    *Surge KLAXON*

    twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/861698888532668417

    Hm, what's louder and more dramatic than a KLAXON?
  • Danny565
    Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    By the way, I feel we haven't talked about Andy Burnham's performance in the Gtr Manchester Mayoral election enough.

    In some seats, he outperformed 1997 Tony Blair, including winning Altrincham & Sale West. (Hat-tip Stephen Bush)

    If only....
  • Scrapheap_as_was
    Scrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    RobD said:

    *Surge KLAXON*

    twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/861698888532668417

    Hm, what's louder and more dramatic than a KLAXON?
    10 or more will do fine.......
  • philiph
    philiph Posts: 4,705

    bobajobPB said:

    bobajobPB said:

    Three Quidder

    Indeed.

    But as your definition of bullying means asking people to make election predictions rather than trolling; and smearing, quoting polls; you might have a problem with crying wolf.

    Repeatedly demanding a particular person appears so you can have a go at them is bullying.

    Misleadingly partially quoting polls to make a group you disagree with look bad is smearing.

    Hope this helps.
    I asked Moniker several times to predict the French election result after he - several times - ramped and dog whistled a Le Pen victory. That is a perfectly reasonable response. It is not bullying.
    Will you define fascist for us? I think you've been throwing it around a bit lately, and accusing fellow PBers of being fascist supporters, if memory serves (apols if I'm wrong). Surely you can quite easily tell us precisely what you mean by it?
    It often appears to mean 'disagrees with me'

    Must be a modern definition in the Urban dictionary.

    People who struggle with an alternative viewpoint are intolerant. A bit fascist, really.
  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    Jonny

    I said Le Pen was a fascist.
  • philiph said:

    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    As a non legal expert, is the CPS expected to bring charges in cases that it thinks they will win, or where they think the potential defendant is guilty?

    Guilt can be exceedingly difficult to prove and the two are very different.
    This should explain it better than I can

    Here's one of the tests.

    The evidential test

    The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction.

    This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.

    It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/decision_to_charge.html
    Thanks

    That is clear and understandable, could be because there are no puns or 80s pop music references.

    I wonder if those criteria are more helpful to the accused than to CPS or other parties?

    It has always looked to me that the real guilt lies at Central Office, not local level. I could see a case built around the advice from central office that the EC had always accepted the battle bus costs as National expenditure in the past, so it was not to be included in local costs as overwhelmingly persuasive. I suspect the EC is guilty of allowing unacceptable practice to grow over time, and for that to become the moving line with each election to which the parties could acceptably bend the rules.

    Whilst guilt of someone(or more than one) in the Tory ranks is undeniable, I could see agents and MPs building a good defense.

    That, of course, is academic in terms of the bad press from charges, accusations and a hostile and aggressive press.
    "It has always looked to me that the real guilt lies at Central Office, not local level"

    Which is why in certain cases the ramifications could be very serious.
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    FPT:
    For those wondering whether Ms Abbott's gaffe last week was a one off that could happen to anyone, try this from June last year.

    Written PQ from Diane Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development, what steps she has taken to assist people in the Indonesian province of Province of Davao del Norte affected by the drought in that province.
    Answer from SoS DfiD Justine Greening: There is no province called Davao del Norte in Indonesia.
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-06-24/41141/

    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.
    .
    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    I've heard they even let people with red shoes into Fen Poly.

    Wouldn't happen at good old Cowley Tech.
    Cowley Tech let in David Miliband with 3 Bs and a D, and also Jeffrey Archer.

    Just saying.
    Now CEO of International Rescue (Archer never went to Oxford). So if he was as dense as Abbott going in, we must have added more value while he was there...
  • RobinWiggs
    RobinWiggs Posts: 621
    IanB2 said:

    bobajobPB said:

    What happens if I write Corbyn is a Massive Twat in the Labour box?

    If it is entirely within the box, a good agent will argue that it is expression of a clear preference and that the vote should stand.

    I've argued that a quickly drawn phallus is a valid vote...

    I doubt a written comment obviously negative about a candidate would qualify as a valid vote (leaving aside any considerations about identifying the voter). I believe there is case precedent about "not him" written in the box not counting.

    At least with a drawing there is a degree of ambiguity.
    But in this case I'd argue that it was not referencing the candidate but a third party, and thus all we can know is they have made marks entirely within my candidate's box and it should stand as a valid vote. If the opposition agent is asleep and the RO reasonable, then it could count.
  • chrisb
    chrisb Posts: 121
    "The findings are based on an analysis by the Scottish Conservatives of first preference votes from last week's council elections"

    Hmm...
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608

    RobD said:

    *Surge KLAXON*

    twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/861698888532668417

    Hm, what's louder and more dramatic than a KLAXON?
    10 or more will do fine.......
    10 more KLAXONs? :p
  • philiph
    philiph Posts: 4,705

    philiph said:

    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    As a non legal expert, is the CPS expected to bring charges in cases that it thinks they will win, or where they think the potential defendant is guilty?

    Guilt can be exceedingly difficult to prove and the two are very different.
    This should explain it better than I can

    Here's one of the tests.

    The evidential test

    The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction.

    This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.

    It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/decision_to_charge.html
    Thanks

    That is clear and understandable, could be because there are no puns or 80s pop music references.

    I wonder if those criteria are more helpful to the accused than to CPS or other parties?

    It has always looked to me that the real guilt lies at Central Office, not local level. I could see a case built around the advice from central office that the EC had always accepted the battle bus costs as National expenditure in the past, so it was not to be included in local costs as overwhelmingly persuasive. I suspect the EC is guilty of allowing unacceptable practice to grow over time, and for that to become the moving line with each election to which the parties could acceptably bend the rules.

    Whilst guilt of someone(or more than one) in the Tory ranks is undeniable, I could see agents and MPs building a good defense.

    That, of course, is academic in terms of the bad press from charges, accusations and a hostile and aggressive press.
    "It has always looked to me that the real guilt lies at Central Office, not local level"

    Which is why in certain cases the ramifications could be very serious.
    I agree in principle, but not by prosecuting the local Agent /MP - if the guilt lies at Central Office.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,457

    Leeds East? Really?

    Hmmmm....target? Filed under "They're avin' a larf....."
  • IanB2 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    The CPS know that the Tories will win the election -are they really going to make a decision before June the 8th ?
    Legally they have no choice; they have already been granted one extension and the deadlines are days away. I have no idea whether a minister could grant a further extension or not, but the political costs of doing so probably rule this out even if it could be done.
    People keep talking about deadlines but -where have these dates come from?

    But I wont put any money down on this election until i know what the DPS timescale is.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    chrisb said:

    "The findings are based on an analysis by the Scottish Conservatives of first preference votes from last week's council elections"Hmm...

    https://twitter.com/iainmcgill/status/861699550460956672
  • JonnyJimmy
    JonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    edited May 2017
    bobajobPB said:

    Jonny

    I said Le Pen was a fascist.

    What qualifies her? Is it racism? And is wanting controls on immigration racist enough to be fascist? Or how how racist do you have to be to qualify? Or is it something else in Le Pen that makes her a fascist? You obviously don't need a dictator for fascism anymore, so I'm wondering precisely how one qualifies. And none of the fascism experts seem to have an answer.
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,308
    Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    FPT:
    For those wondering whether Ms Abbott's gaffe last week was a one off that could happen to anyone, try this from June last year.

    Written PQ from Diane Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development, what steps she has taken to assist people in the Indonesian province of Province of Davao del Norte affected by the drought in that province.
    Answer from SoS DfiD Justine Greening: There is no province called Davao del Norte in Indonesia.
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-06-24/41141/

    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.
    .
    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    I've heard they even let people with red shoes into Fen Poly.

    Wouldn't happen at good old Cowley Tech.
    Cowley Tech let in David Miliband with 3 Bs and a D, and also Jeffrey Archer.

    Just saying.
    Now CEO of International Rescue (Archer never went to Oxford). So if he was as dense as Abbott going in, we must have added more value while he was there...
    Doesn't it mostly educate people to write, speak, broadcast and make political decisions about all the inventions and discoveries made by people from Cambridge?
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited May 2017
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    Leeds East? Really?

    Hmmmm....target? Filed under "They're avin' a larf....."
    My sentiments exactly.
  • TheWhiteRabbit
    TheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    FPT:
    For those wondering whether Ms Abbott's gaffe last week was a one off that could happen to anyone, try this from June last year.
    []
    Answer from SoS DfiD Justine Greening: There is no province called Davao del Norte in Indonesia.
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-06-24/41141/

    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.
    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.
    .
    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    I've heard they even let people with red shoes into Fen Poly.

    Wouldn't happen at good old Cowley Tech.
    Cowley Tech let in David Miliband with 3 Bs and a D, and also Jeffrey Archer.

    Just saying.
    No, no, no. You have made the schoolboy error of believing what Jeffrey archer says. He attended a teacher training course or something which took place during the long vacation at Brasenose; he was never a member of the university.
    He was definitely a member of the JCR, we had the photos and minutes etc
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,074
    bobajobPB said:

    Jonny

    I said Le Pen was a fascist.

    Didn't you Commies kill more people in more countries than the Fascists?
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722
    edited May 2017
    isam said:

    Oh my word!!
    youtu.be/HeKDcazGa1A

    What a charming gentleman.
  • Theuniondivvie
    Theuniondivvie Posts: 44,327

    Does 'fascism' now mean 'wanting immigration controls'?

    It means anything that the 'liberal elite' don't like - and as such has no meaning at all and so can be safely ignored along with racist, xenophobe, islamophobe, corbynophobe, little-englander, neocon, lepenophile etc.
    Excellent work!
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    IanB2 said:

    Doesn't it mostly educate people to write, speak, broadcast and make political decisions about all the inventions and discoveries made by people from Cambridge?

    Yes, it educates us to employ Cambridge graduates in technical support roles.
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,308

    IanB2 said:

    Doesn't it mostly educate people to write, speak, broadcast and make political decisions about all the inventions and discoveries made by people from Cambridge?

    Yes, it educates us to employ Cambridge graduates in technical support roles.
    Lol
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:



    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.

    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.

    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    "Extensive trade links from mid 50s BC onwards" doesn't justify "so probably before that as well", because of rather important events in 55 and 54 BC. And, again, trade links don't imply travels from one end of the chain to the other. She presumably simply misdates Caesar's invasion by a few centuries, since she says "centurions" rather than "traders" (and also thinks centurion just means soldier, in the absence of any argument why centurions are more likely to be black than other ranks are).
    It's not my period but I tend to take the view that trade links were more extensive than previously known. There have been interesting artefacts uncovered in Cornwall that came from Phoenica, for example. It's not proof of movement, but with ships it's possible.

    I suspect that Abbott was simply wrong - as you say. But she could have been right by luck..,
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,308
    edited May 2017

    IanB2 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    The CPS know that the Tories will win the election -are they really going to make a decision before June the 8th ?
    Legally they have no choice; they have already been granted one extension and the deadlines are days away. I have no idea whether a minister could grant a further extension or not, but the political costs of doing so probably rule this out even if it could be done.
    People keep talking about deadlines but -where have these dates come from?

    But I wont put any money down on this election until i know what the DPS timescale is.
    The normal one year period to charge someone, which applied to all crimes AIUI, has been extended to two years. The date of the offence is the date the expenses returns were submitted for each constituency, and the time is almost up.

    Edit/ to correct myself, the reference to all crimes is obvious nonsense, since serious crimes can be charged years after the event. Sorry. Nevertheless I know a one year limit applies in this particular case.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    chestnut said:

    Newsnight asking if Macron can succeed in making the French more like the British. A noble aspiration.

    Macron is economically closer to Osborne than he is Corbyn so quite possibly, I think France will grow quite strongly economically over the next few years, maybe even more than the UK and US but socially it will still have problems of integrating immigrants and terrorist attacks
  • bobajobPB said:

    bobajobPB said:

    If I credited Corbyn with any guile I would say that his ludicrous statement that he will go on and on was designed to spark a mid campaign rebellion from the PLP so the absurd Milne can then blame the inevitable election smashing on them. But that would be too clever by half. As it is, Corbyn will be challenged and if he wins the challenge the party will split. So be it. Five years is long enough to build a party. Just look at Macron!

    That is a very fair point-if you were a Labour MP who was not a Corbynista, Macron's victory would be very encouraging.

    I know the electoral system is different but it is still encouraging.
    Thanks. I now think that a split may not be that bad an outcome. Given that the splitting party will (I assume) have 100+ MPs and five years, that's not too bad a starting point.
    With the likely support of the MSM and lots of bright young things on FB-it will take at least 2 electoral turns but it probably will do in any case.
  • Scrapheap_as_was
    Scrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    *Surge KLAXON*

    twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/861698888532668417

    Hm, what's louder and more dramatic than a KLAXON?
    10 or more will do fine.......
    10 more KLAXONs? :p
    Carried by 10 pandas
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    The CPS know that the Tories will win the election -are they really going to make a decision before June the 8th ?
    Legally they have no choice; they have already been granted one extension and the deadlines are days away. I have no idea whether a minister could grant a further extension or not, but the political costs of doing so probably rule this out even if it could be done.
    People keep talking about deadlines but -where have these dates come from?

    But I wont put any money down on this election until i know what the DPS timescale is.
    The normal one year period to charge someone, which applied to all crimes AIUI, has been extended to two years. The date of the offence is the date the expenses returns were submitted for each constituency, and the time is almost up.
    Some will have submitted very soon, others would have waited until the last moment (June 7th).
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,074
    RobD said:

    *Surge KLAXON*

    twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/861698888532668417

    Hm, what's louder and more dramatic than a KLAXON?
    Thunderclap!
  • Mortimer
    Mortimer Posts: 14,229
    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:



    "The earliest blacks in Britain were probably black Roman centurions that came over hundreds of years before Christ."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/dabbott_01.shtml

    This from a graduate of Cambridge "University", ffs.

    In fairness there is evidence of extensive trade links, certainly from the mid 50s BC onwards so plausible before then. In this context it's likely that there were blacks (or at least African born) Romans in Britain in the time frame she suggests
    Probably not Centurions though!
    It's not my period, but I believe retired NCOs like Centurions retained their rank. But that does make it less likely, yes, although not laughably stupid.

    (At least it wouldn't be laughably stupid if it had been someone other than Abbott making the comment. She's just a blithering idiot)
    It is laughably stupid because she seems to believe there were Romans in Britain 'hundreds of years before Christ'. Whatever your view on there being blacks amongst the Romans who landed here - and I think it very likely to the point of certainty, she has managed to push back the arrival of the Romans by several centuries.

    She is basically dumber than a bag of rocks.
    I think it is very probable there were Romans in Britain hundreds of years before Christ.

    Each extra criterion (centurions, black) reduces the probability somewhat.

    But I agree with your conclusion! What I don't understand is how did she get into Fenland Poly?
    "Extensive trade links from mid 50s BC onwards" doesn't justify "so probably before that as well", because of rather important events in 55 and 54 BC. And, again, trade links don't imply travels from one end of the chain to the other. She presumably simply misdates Caesar's invasion by a few centuries, since she says "centurions" rather than "traders" (and also thinks centurion just means soldier, in the absence of any argument why centurions are more likely to be black than other ranks are).
    It's not my period but I tend to take the view that trade links were more extensive than previously known. There have been interesting artefacts uncovered in Cornwall that came from Phoenica, for example. It's not proof of movement, but with ships it's possible.

    I suspect that Abbott was simply wrong - as you say. But she could have been right by luck..,
    Not mine either - but when I started studying Medieval history the most important lesson was that sea travel was much quicker than 'road' travel.
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,308
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Thinking back to the CPS, it will be far more damaging if the charges come out in dribs and drabs, rather than in one go.

    The CPS know that the Tories will win the election -are they really going to make a decision before June the 8th ?
    Legally they have no choice; they have already been granted one extension and the deadlines are days away. I have no idea whether a minister could grant a further extension or not, but the political costs of doing so probably rule this out even if it could be done.
    People keep talking about deadlines but -where have these dates come from?

    But I wont put any money down on this election until i know what the DPS timescale is.
    The normal one year period to charge someone, which applied to all crimes AIUI, has been extended to two years. The date of the offence is the date the expenses returns were submitted for each constituency, and the time is almost up.
    Some will have submitted very soon, others would have waited until the last moment (June 7th).
    I believe the dates in the 15 seats are mostly late May. It's unusual to wait to the last minute, partly because it is a job most candidates and agents are eager to get out of the way, and also because most EROs are friendly enough to cast an eye over submissions and give someone a ring if they have made an obvious cockup like forgetting to sign them or putting the wrong year as the date.
  • bobajobPB
    bobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    HYUFD

    It has a lot of potential. One of the most productive countries in Europe I understand, per hour worked. Much more productive than the meeting-obsessed UK.
This discussion has been closed.