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The most gifted deceivers are those who first deceive themselves.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.0 -
How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude0 -
Well we disagree on the last point.SeanT said:
Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.Jonathan said:
He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.
One thing is for sure is that by controlling Congress, Trump (like Obama) has an opportunity this year that he cannot count on for the rest of his term in office. It's might be now, or never.0 -
I dont know if the primaries aremuch of a barometer of France's mood, but it is noticeable that on both left and right the"outsider" candidate is doing better and the establishmanet candidates are slipping off the scene.rcs1000 said:
All we need now is for Bayrou to endorse him..BannedInParis said:I think this opens things up quite massively for Macron.
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It reminds me of the alternative surgeon who perfected the haemorrhoids transplant.logical_song said:How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude0 -
I am already waiting with bated breath for some trader to tell me that he has some "alternative facts".foxinsoxuk said:
It reminds me of the alternative surgeon who perfected the haemorrhoids transplant.logical_song said:How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude
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Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.SeanT said:
Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.Jonathan said:
He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.
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I reckon 60% plus of Americans think he's a charlatan. Interestingly, that includes a fair number who voted for him, either because he was on their team or because they think things need shaking up and they trusted him to do that.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.0 -
The paradox is that it's possible for an outright charlatan to be more sincere about what he wants to achieve than many other politicians.FF43 said:
I reckon 60% plus of Americans think he's a charlatan.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.0 -
Interesting. But one question for you: hasn't Trump in effect been pitching to the same pool throughout the primaries and the campaign?SouthamObserver said:
Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.SeanT said:
Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.Jonathan said:
He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.
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but without ever having to deliverCyclefree said:
Interesting. But one question for you: hasn't Trump in effect been pitching to the same pool throughout the primaries and the campaign?SouthamObserver said:
Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.SeanT said:
Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.Jonathan said:
He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.0 -
Toastgate, time to look more closely at risks.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/how-dangerous-is-burnt-toast-c5e237873097#.9zofof7ww0 -
I read in detail the government guidance on alcohol where they came up with the advice on 14 units per week.dr_spyn said:Toastgate, time to look more closely at risks.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/how-dangerous-is-burnt-toast-c5e237873097#.9zofof7ww
IIRC to increase your chances of early death by a third you would have to drink two bottles of wine a day. Which struck me as an awful lot of alcohol for pretty reasonable odds of not dying early.....
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He has. And now it's time to deliver. And he can't move on. He has to keep going back to the same client base.Cyclefree said:
Interesting. But one question for you: hasn't Trump in effect been pitching to the same pool throughout the primaries and the campaign?SouthamObserver said:
Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.SeanT said:
Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.Jonathan said:
He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.
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I was so panic stricken reading the news on this at the breakfast table that I burnt the toast.SeanT said:
I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.dr_spyn said:Toastgate, time to look more closely at risks.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/how-dangerous-is-burnt-toast-c5e237873097#.9zofof7ww
Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.0 -
Fake news according to a cambridge professor!SeanT said:
I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.dr_spyn said:Toastgate, time to look more closely at risks.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/how-dangerous-is-burnt-toast-c5e237873097#.9zofof7ww
Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.0 -
Being a ponce, I always had a soft spot for 'economical with the actualité' (delivered in an Alan Clark drawl of course).logical_song said:How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude0 -
This is a very shoddy piece in The Guardian. No assessment of risk, almost taking the FSA 'guidance' or press release at face value.SeanT said:
I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.dr_spyn said:Toastgate, time to look more closely at risks.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/how-dangerous-is-burnt-toast-c5e237873097#.9zofof7ww
Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/toast-thats-a-bit-too-brown-may-cause-cancer-say-authorities
A case of garbage in, garbage out, and an attempt to create poorer policy making.
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No, because democracy doesn't work that way.SeanT said:
Yes. Good analysis.
And yet, I can't help thinking Trump would have handled, say, Syria, better than Obama.
Trump would have analysed it brutally, as an amoral businessman - what's good for me, what's good for America? How do we get rid of these jihadis, the real threat to Americans?
He might have then come up with the best solution of all (back in the day) support Assad, ally with Putin, crush the rebellion.
Cruel and ruthless, but it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Obama, with his bleeding liberal heart, just vacillated and did nothing, allowing Russia to intervene alone, and all those people died, and Assad has won anyway. And America is entirely sidelined, and humiliated, and now a peripheral actor in much of the Mid East.
Obama was rubbish in many ways. He talked the talk, but that was it.
After the Iraq/Afghanistan experiences, the last thing British and American politicians felt they could get past the court of public opinion was a military intervention in the Middle East.
Yes, defend the Falklands, Cornwall or Watford Gap Services but in Syria where it was far from clear at the outset who were the "good guys" and the "bad guys", why get involved ? We chose not to intervene on the ground in Libya for similar reasons.
Both Obama and Cameron had come into office on the back of an anti-intervention sentiment which had gnawed away at both Bush and Blair/Brown and had sapped their support.
Part of that erosion was the constant drip drip coverage of soldiers coming home in body bags. Whether it be the Americans in Vietnam or the Russians in Afghanistan and no matter how censored or controlled the coverage, the people get to know and resent the loss of life for no obvious benefit.
Had Iraq and Afghanistan never happened, I suspect we would have put troops on the ground in Syria and Libya and I don't know where that would have led.
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Fake official news...from FSA?FrancisUrquhart said:
Fake news according to a cambridge professor!SeanT said:
I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.dr_spyn said:Toastgate, time to look more closely at risks.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/how-dangerous-is-burnt-toast-c5e237873097#.9zofof7ww
Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.0 -
I'm sure seanT will give it a good go!CarlottaVance said:
I read in detail the government guidance on alcohol where they came up with the advice on 14 units per week.dr_spyn said:Toastgate, time to look more closely at risks.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/how-dangerous-is-burnt-toast-c5e237873097#.9zofof7ww
IIRC to increase your chances of early death by a third you would have to drink two bottles of wine a day. Which struck me as an awful lot of alcohol for pretty reasonable odds of not dying early.....0 -
Alan Clark at the Matrix trial?Theuniondivvie said:
Being a ponce, I always had a soft spot for 'economical with the actualité' (delivered in an Alan Clark drawl of course).logical_song said:How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude0 -
Not exactly a joyous moment for liberals who deplored Obama's drone policy either.SeanT said:
One painful point for liberals who defended Obama and his drone policy: President Donald Trump is now in charge of those same American drones, Donald Trump is now able to murder and vapourise whoever he likes, around the world, at will.Sean_F said:
The most gifted deceivers are those who first deceive themselves.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.0 -
No, not quite what he said. Although you made me laugh.FrancisUrquhart said:
Fake news according to a cambridge professor!SeanT said:
I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.dr_spyn said:Toastgate, time to look more closely at risks.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/how-dangerous-is-burnt-toast-c5e237873097#.9zofof7ww
Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.
He says that "for cancer, toxicology committees demand a rather arbitrary margin of exposure of 10,000 before considering the chemical essentially acceptable.".
If I have understood him right, the tests on mice about the chemical in burnt toast showed that one adult could consume 160x what was at the margin of "unlikely" to cause in mice and be ok.0 -
but then youd miss out on 5 more years of saying wibble and sitting in your own piss.CarlottaVance said:
I read in detail the government guidance on alcohol where they came up with the advice on 14 units per week.dr_spyn said:Toastgate, time to look more closely at risks.
https://medium.com/wintoncentre/how-dangerous-is-burnt-toast-c5e237873097#.9zofof7ww
IIRC to increase your chances of early death by a third you would have to drink two bottles of wine a day. Which struck me as an awful lot of alcohol for pretty reasonable odds of not dying early.....0 -
Do people not have a right to know about potential health risks ? If you give people information, they have a choice as to what to do with it. People continue to smoke even though the negative health effects are well known and well documented.SeanT said:>
I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.
Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.
Ultimately it's longevity vs quality of life. Nobody wants to die but if in order to avoid dying you stop living what's the point ?
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from comments in that guardian article on Toast.
"Scientist have said it's really important not to burn any of the onion family
Especially the small delicate types
They have started a campaign called 'Black Chives Matter'."
Round of applause for Elephantwoman.0 -
They will never admit it, but his victory is as much the fault of the Democrats as it is his success.FF43 said:
I reckon 60% plus of Americans think he's a charlatan. Interestingly, that includes a fair number who voted for him, either because he was on their team or because they think things need shaking up and they trusted him to do that.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.
The way in which the Democrats conducted the election campaign showed that most of their talk about healing division, unity and togetherness was just that - Rhetoric.
There are certain sorts of people they are alluding to when they talk about it, but not the ones they find revolting.0 -
Naturellement!Mortimer said:
Alan Clark at the Matrix trial?Theuniondivvie said:
Being a ponce, I always had a soft spot for 'economical with the actualité' (delivered in an Alan Clark drawl of course).logical_song said:How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude0 -
People always forget his mandate. He ran in 2007/8 with a major plank being that Iraq was a disaster and US should have kept out (and Hillary voted for it etc). He was elected with a mandate to stop the foreign wars and keep out of doing, in his words, "stupid stuff" in ME.SeanT said:
Yes. Good analysis.SouthamObserver said:
Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.SeanT said:
Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.Jonathan said:
He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.
And yet, I can't help thinking Trump would have handled, say, Syria, better than Obama.
Trump would have analysed it brutally, as an amoral businessman - what's good for me, what's good for America? How do we get rid of these jihadis, the real threat to Americans?
He might have then come up with the best solution of all (back in the day) support Assad, ally with Putin, crush the rebellion.
Cruel and ruthless, but it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Obama, with his bleeding liberal heart, just vacillated and did nothing, allowing Russia to intervene alone, and all those people died, and Assad has won anyway. And America is entirely sidelined, and humiliated, and now a peripheral actor in much of the Mid East.
Obama was rubbish in many ways. He talked the talk, but that was it.
I am sure this would have weighed on him.0 -
NEW THREAD
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We will never know but had Iraq been a "success" - in other words, had it all calmed down in 2003, with minimal casualties, and the country moved towards something more resembling Jordan or Kuwait, albeit an elected republic rather than a monarchy - then I think the controversy would have been largely limited to those ideologically opposed to it.stodge said:
No, because democracy doesn't work that way.SeanT said:
Yes. Good analysis.
And yet, I can't help thinking Trump would have handled, say, Syria, better than Obama.
Trump would have analysed it brutally, as an amoral businessman - what's good for me, what's good for America? How do we get rid of these jihadis, the real threat to Americans?
He might have then come up with the best solution of all (back in the day) support Assad, ally with Putin, crush the rebellion.
Cruel and ruthless, but it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Obama, with his bleeding liberal heart, just vacillated and did nothing, allowing Russia to intervene alone, and all those people died, and Assad has won anyway. And America is entirely sidelined, and humiliated, and now a peripheral actor in much of the Mid East.
Obama was rubbish in many ways. He talked the talk, but that was it.
After the Iraq/Afghanistan experiences, the last thing British and American politicians felt they could get past the court of public opinion was a military intervention in the Middle East.
Yes, defend the Falklands, Cornwall or Watford Gap Services but in Syria where it was far from clear at the outset who were the "good guys" and the "bad guys", why get involved ? We chose not to intervene on the ground in Libya for similar reasons.
Both Obama and Cameron had come into office on the back of an anti-intervention sentiment which had gnawed away at both Bush and Blair/Brown and had sapped their support.
Part of that erosion was the constant drip drip coverage of soldiers coming home in body bags. Whether it be the Americans in Vietnam or the Russians in Afghanistan and no matter how censored or controlled the coverage, the people get to know and resent the loss of life for no obvious benefit.
Had Iraq and Afghanistan never happened, I suspect we would have put troops on the ground in Syria and Libya and I don't know where that would have led.
But, as you say, we (Bush and Blair) would have probably then moved onto Syria and Libya. And possibly Iran.0 -
He'll be judged on his economic record, the press will focus on the social stuff that was always going to happen under any Republican presidency though (Did they listen to Rubio on the stump ?!) - so missing the actual stuff that'll decide whether or not he gets re-elected.SouthamObserver said:. And he can't move on. He has to keep going back to the same client base.
Ordinary Americans couldn't give a stuff what Madonna thinks.0 -
I don't think that explains why Trump sailed past a dozen other Republican candidates, all of whom, with the exception of Ted Cruz were better qualified to be president than Trump.Clinton ran an OK campaign, but she was from the old order that was about to be swept away.Casino_Royale said:
They will never admit it, but his victory is as much the fault of the Democrats as it is his success.FF43 said:
I reckon 60% plus of Americans think he's a charlatan. Interestingly, that includes a fair number who voted for him, either because he was on their team or because they think things need shaking up and they trusted him to do that.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.
The way in which the Democrats conducted the election campaign showed that most of their talk about healing division, unity and togetherness was just that - Rhetoric.
There are certain sorts of people they are alluding to when they talk about it, but not the ones they find revolting.0 -
I much prefer the use of drones to bombing towns and cities.SeanT said:
One painful point for liberals who defended Obama and his drone policy: President Donald Trump is now in charge of those same American drones, Donald Trump is now able to murder and vapourise whoever he likes, around the world, at will.Sean_F said:
The most gifted deceivers are those who first deceive themselves.SeanT said:
That's hilarious.Scott_P said:
1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...SouthamObserver said:(though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).
https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.
I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.
The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.
As a deterrent, I'd like to see personal drones with enemy leaders' names on them. Much better than nuclear deterrents that depend on the threat of annihilating cities.
So I'm a liberal who defends Obama's drone policy. I recognise that it means Trump is now able to vapourise whoever he likes but he can do that anyway in much bigger numbers with his nuclear biscuit.0
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